Derrick White and Dejounte Murray: The Tandem That Hasn't Materialized Yet

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/dejounte-murray-derrick-white-why-not-playing-together/

Tl;dr: Derrick White and Dejounte Murray should be playing together. In preseason, they haven't.

[MultiTroll]

:pop: :drunk

[R. DeMurre]

Agree completely... I don't get why pairing them up for just a look wouldn't be something to experiment with in the pre-season. That would also give guys like Forbes and Mills more time against the bench players of opposing teams rather than starters.
DeRozan is a big part of the problem-- if he shot the three, I think pairing two average shooters in the back court wouldn't be as much of an issue. But with a non shooting SF, maybe Pop feels there's not enough spacing. I still contend that trading DeRozan would be the solution. He was an enormous net negative in the playoffs, and is a No 3 & little D player in an era when 3 & D is the golden benchmark that most teams aim for.

[Dennis the Menace]

Tl;dr: Derrick White and Dejounte Murray should be playing together. In preseason, they haven't.

Greg Popovich said that he would retire when Timmy retires. Timmy retired, and Pop hasn’t.

[GAustex]

DDR + Mills+ Beli for a 6’ 7” 3D deadeye and a serviceable musclebound PF
I know it’s a dream

[objective]

damn it, I spend like 30 minutes looking up stats and salaries and thinking over things only to be second to the subject.

[Dejounte]

What I said all off season is taking place. And people are surprised. Lmao.

[Robz4000]

Just Pop trying to be smarter than everyone else. Also doesn't help that White has seemingly forgotten how to play basketball.

[objective]

What I said all off season is taking place. And people are surprised. Lmao.

I'm not at all surprised by Walker being out of the regular rotation.

I am surprised by the lack of Murray-White together.

But then again, Pop couldn't figure out how to stagger Parker and Ginobili without benching one of them. Well, he could, until he had to baby the tankers like Hedo, Finley and Barry by sacrificing Manu on the alter of team-first no-ego basketball.

[timvp]

What I said all off season is taking place. And people are surprised. Lmao.

You said Murray and White wouldn't play together, tbh? Link? Good call, if so :tu

[timvp]

I'm not at all surprised by Walker being out of the regular rotation.Yeah, Walker being out of the rotation wouldn't be surprising. I was cautiously hopeful but everyone knew it would be a mistake to assume Pop would go with Walker on Day 1 of the regular season.


I am surprised by the lack of Murray-White together.

But then again, Pop couldn't figure out how to stagger Parker and Ginobili without benching one of them. Well, he could, until he had to baby the tankers like Hedo, Finley and Barry by sacrificing Manu on the alter of team-first no-ego basketball.

The Parker and Ginobili dynamic is part of the reason why I thought it was a no-brainer that Murray and White would play together. Ginobili would come off the bench but he'd always end up playing with Parker and was always on the court to close the game. It wasn't even a question.

I thought Pop saw White as Ginobili part two. So far, it looks like Pop considers White to be Jacque Vaughn part 2.

[spurraider21]

i had said a few different times in these discussion threads that them starting together would have almost certainly required a guy like bertans starting at the 4. if they insist on poodle starting, these guys are probably unplayable together

[spurraider21]

I thought Pop saw White as Ginobili part two. So far, it looks like Pop considers White to be Jacque Vaughn part 2.
the TJ Ford that never was, tbh

[UZER]

Greg Popovich said that he would retire when Timmy retires. Timmy retired, and Pop hasn’t.

I think Pop retired too. He’s just still coaching.

[objective]

Yeah, Walker being out of the rotation wouldn't be surprising. I was cautiously hopeful but everyone knew it would be a mistake to assume Pop would go with Walker on Day 1 of the regular season.



The Parker and Ginobili dynamic is part of the reason why I thought it was a no-brainer that Murray and White would play together. Ginobili would come off the bench but he'd always end up playing with Parker and was always on the court to close the game. It wasn't even a question.

I thought Pop saw White as Ginobili part two. So far, it looks like Pop considers White to be Jacque Vaughn part 2.

White needs to follow the Hedo playbook. Perform like garbage until Pop starts you to 'get you going'. Then, when he's performing well as a starter, talk about how much more comfortable it is to start.

It might take 40 games of trash play but it could work.

[sasaint]

Agree completely... I don't get why pairing them up for just a look wouldn't be something to experiment with in the pre-season. That would also give guys like Forbes and Mills more time against the bench players of opposing teams rather than starters.
DeRozan is a big part of the problem-- if he shot the three, I think pairing two average shooters in the back court wouldn't be as much of an issue. But with a non shooting SF, maybe Pop feels there's not enough spacing. I still contend that trading DeRozan would be the solution. He was an enormous net negative in the playoffs, and is a No 3 & little D player in an era when 3 & D is the golden benchmark that most teams aim for.

There is not enough spacing regardless who is on the floor. But Pop will never part with Dumbmar, the obvious problem.

[Degoat]

I want to see the DWhite/Murray pairing but with the way Forbes has looked, it just makes sense to stick with Murray/Forbes together

[UZER]

Pop will play them together in a game 5 on the road when the spurs are down 3-1 in the series...if they make the playoffs.

[r0drig0lac]

Not surprisingly, and I don't expect any quick adjustments either, Pop has become increasingly stubborn in recent years, using Mills and Marco for so long in 2019 shows that it's just basketball for him.

[sasaint]

Not surprisingly, and I don't expect any quick adjustments either, Pop has become increasingly stubborn in recent years, using Mills and Marco for so long in 2019 shows that it's just basketball for him.

Nope. Pop no longer respects the game.

[RD2191]

Pop will play them together in a game 5 on the road when the spurs are down 3-1 in the series...if they make the playoffs.

Tbh :lol

[ginobilized]

Nice article, timvp!

I am puzzled and bordering on disturbed by this preseason. I guess it is always possible that there are many factors at play that we fans do not know about. Injuries, trade possibilities, attitude problems, personal issues, long-term coaching vision and plan might be part of it.
The current state is making it increasingly difficult to comprehend the plan for this season at all. I don't recall another preseason like this.

This team doesn't look great on paper and has looked worse on the court so far. A lot can change in 9 days. Let's hope it does, for the better.

[wildcardX]

I thought White would start and Murray would come off the bench until he gets comfortable playing more minutes and building chemistry with his teammates. Plus I figured Pop would roll with the same starters from the playoffs to keep things consistent.

[TimDunkem]

DDR + Mills+ Beli for a 6’ 7” 3D deadeye and a serviceable musclebound PF
I know it’s a dream

This team would be so much better, but that's not what it's about these days I guess.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

Count me in like the rest of the folks who are shocked about Murray and White not playing together. White losing his shooting touch hasn’t helped the case for them sharing the court also

[gambit1990]

pop gonna pop.

[UZER]

Every Spurs fan was anticipating the White Murray starting backcourt.

Pop always with the trolling “zag”.

[timtonymanu]

“It’s just basketball.” It will take Pop the whole year to realize he could have done it from the beginning and play that “wasn’t fair” to Bryn, Patty, and Beli. “See the way those guys pat teammates on the back, you can’t teach that kind of culture. :pop:”

[Dennis the Menace]

I think Pop retired too. He’s just still coaching.

Thats beautiful. Poetry even

[diego]

it all depends on their shooting, especially white. he wont make the current starting lineup if he is going to be a passive, poor shooter. if murray develops a 3 then he becomes the perfect compliment to derozan (unfortunately if you think he is cancer, but still a perfect fit). i think thats the issue for the FO, if white breaks out derozan is expendable but if he doesnt you need someone else to run some offense. doesnt absolve pop completely but if white is playing like this hes hardly convincing anyone to give him a bigger role.

preseason is not showing it at all but im hoping the 2nd year effect kicks in for derozan, especially on defense. he has good offensive impact stats but his defense is so bad it makes him a net negative. Some improvement there could go a long way to making him a better player.

[sananspursfan21]

Beyond the D...hehe, the D.... sorry, had a Beavis and Butthead moment....

Anyway, not to justify this as I agree that they could be dynamic together, is there any possibility Pop is trying to keep White as a punch for the bench like Manu?

[KobesAchilles]

And yet the Mills and Belli pairing that literally lost us the series against Denver is still going on strong. When will Becky take over the reins? I would like to not continue having to hear my coach not give a flip when we lose.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

can we get an ‘aroused’ emoticon reaction?


something tells me pop doesnt feel like he needs to play ddr/white together in preseason bc he is going to be doing that in the early regular season anyway so why waste valuable (meaningless) mad scientist time

[timvp]

Every Spurs fan was anticipating the White Murray starting backcourt.

Pop always with the trolling “zag”.




Anyway, not to justify this as I agree that they could be dynamic together, is there any possibility Pop is trying to keep White as a punch for the bench like Manu?

To be clear, I'm fine with White coming off the bench. Hell, Ginobili was a bench player for almost his entire career and he'll be a Hall of Famer.

My issue is just Pop actively avoiding playing Murray and White together. Maybe it's an overreaction to preseason play but he usually gives pretty clear hints about his desired rotation during preseason.

My number one interest this preseason was to see how Murray and White fit. I never considered that Pop wouldn't look to play those two together at all . . .

[TheGreatYacht]

Pounding the Pop Cock posted an article earlier today titled “Dejounte Murray and Derrick White haven’t played together yet, and that’s okay” :lmao

They’re not even ashamed anymore...

[John B]

Just Pop trying to be smarter than everyone else. Also doesn't help that White has seemingly forgotten how to play basketball.
White thrives when he doesn’t need to defer imo. He’s too worried to involve his team and becomes a Beta. Come on Pop. You said different to Tony, to score. Opponents should recognize he’s a threat then dish to an open guy.

Going to the point of starting White. So far Forbes has been playing the best basketball among the guards, and no one can deny that. He’s been improving every year. And as long as he’s hitting them sweet shots, White will be coming off the bench. But regardless, White should be coming off the bench with a vengeance and dominate the 2nd stringer but he hasn’t done that. I don’t know. For sure, we have a great line up to close and that should matter most.

[TD 21]

I don't know why anyone is surprised about this. Fans and media alike decided it would happen, but it never made any sense.

I said all along we'd see strict pairings of one of Murray/White with one of Forbes/Mills. It's similar to one of Parker/Ginobili generally being paired with one of Green/Mills in the "beautiful game" era.

The reality is, Murray and White can't co-exist alongside DeRozan, unless DeRozan is playing as a nominal "PF" and one of Forbes/Mills/Belinelli is playing. We'll see some of that because Gay/Carroll are gimpy and Lyles is underwhelming, but even then it's obviously matchup dependant.

This is partially why DeRozan needs to go. He's literally the worst possible fit with Murray, White and Walker and is stunting their growth by ostensibly forcing the first two to split starting/closing duties and the third to be out of the rotation entirely. Instead, these idiots are apparently considering a max extension.

[TheDoctor]

Pounding the Pop Cock posted an article earlier today titled “Dejounte Murray and Derrick White haven’t played together yet, and that’s okay” :lmao

They’re not even ashamed anymore...

They stopped being ashamed the minute they published that "Patty is the new Big 3 member..." article some years ago.

LMA, Kawhi and 50 :lmao

[Dejounte]

I dont know why people are "curious" to see White and Murray together. They played spot minutes together two seasons ago. It rendered the other player useless. Both of them are at their strongest when they have the ball in their hands. This is just a fact. You take that away and theyre not playing the best they could be. You want to put your players in the best situations possible and have them excel that way. This has always been the Spurs way/mantra. timvp i am too lazy to look up my own posts over the summer.

It's just preseason. For decades of watching basketball, the teams with the worst record during the preseason always end up with the best record in regular season and vice versa. Seems like people dont pay attention to patterns (if theyve been watching the nba for a long time like me).

To me a clear need is still another 3 and D player. But maybe Keldon will step up.

I really think Pop is showcasing both Mills and Beli. Makes too much sense to do so. Theyll be traded soon. You heard it here first. They will make minutes for Lonnie.

My other theory is Pop is OK to lose like this to show the vets that its time for a change. This will allow him to ease the younger players into bigger roles since obv. the old way isnt working. This will be a season of transition. They talked up Lonnie too much to not give him minutes this season.

[Dejounte]

Another call I made was that Poetl was going to continue to start. It was common sense but idiots like Chinook kept forcing the idea that Aldridge would be at center. This line up will work, it just takes patience.

[Dejounte]

You said Murray and White wouldn't play together, tbh? Link? Good call, if so :tu

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280492&page=12&p=9877778&viewfull=1#post9877778

Here's one of my posts during the offseason.

The only thing i didnt anticipate was Forbes STILL starting.

I thought then and still think DeMar should move to Shooting guard and then move Gay to small forward.

Forbes then goes back to the bench with White so they can build off their chemistry that they had last year.

It makes perfect sense. Gay can guard other small forwards better than DeRozan can and Derozan is considered a big guard.

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280492&page=12&p=9877778&viewfull=1#post9877778

Here's one of my posts during the offseason.

The only thing i didnt anticipate was Forbes STILL starting.

I thought then and still think DeMar should move to Shooting guard and then move Gay to small forward.

Forbes then goes back to the bench with White so they can build off their chemistry that they had last year.

It makes perfect sense. Gay can guard other small forwards better than DeRozan can and Derozan is considered a big guard.

Looks like you had Mills and Belinelli out of the rotation to start the season. If only...

Good call on the starting lineup but the point at hand is I don't think anyone assumed there'd be a chance that White and Murray wouldn't play together at all. I thought one of the two of them would come off the bench but I fully expected lineups featuring both of them, particularly to close out games.

[Fireball]

not even trying it is mindboggling ...

[Pavlov]

I think the lineup will show up after more of the roster flotsam is jettisoned .

[PuzzBeterson]

DDR + Mills+ Beli for a 6’ 7” 3D deadeye and a serviceable musclebound PF
I know it’s a dream
Are you targeting Meyers Leonard?

[John B]

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=280492&page=12&p=9877778&viewfull=1#post9877778

Here's one of my posts during the offseason.

The only thing i didnt anticipate was Forbes STILL starting.

I thought then and still think DeMar should move to Shooting guard and then move Gay to small forward.

Forbes then goes back to the bench with White so they can build off their chemistry that they had last year.

It makes perfect sense. Gay can guard other small forwards better than DeRozan can and Derozan is considered a big guard.
Gay will not last through season with starter minutes. Also he’s not fast enough to guard the 3.

Forbes will continue to start as long as he’s hitting his shots. It’s on White to take it from him. But I think White closes games when it really matters.

[Dejounte]

Gay will not last through season with starter minutes. Also he’s not fast enough to guard the 3.

Forbes will continue to start as long as he’s hitting his shots. It’s on White to take it from him. But I think White closes games when it really matters.

Gay isnt big enough to guard the 4. Dude got bullied by Millsap in last year's playoffs. He doesnt need starter minutes, he just needs to start. 20 minutes for Gay, 28 minutes for Carroll at small forward.

[acoelho1]

I don’t get not playing them together at least to see how they execute. Also, does it mean White is on the bench at the end of games?

[RC_Drunkford]

lmao @ people being surprised about this. Pop starts Poeltl, plays Belinelli over Walker and you expect him to see that White and Murray together would be a good line up? He'll still close games with Patty Mills on the court when the team needs a stop, that will never change. Remember last year when the best line up was White/DeRozan/Bertans/Gay/Aldridge and he played it once in the entire season? They won the game in crunch time and that line up never shared the court again. Instead he played a Mills/Belinelli back court in the Playoffs. Or remember when we had this secret line up with Ginobili at the point that could've given the Dubs a run for their money? That line up didn't play one minute together, ever. I mean at this point we all know Popovich gonna make it harder for the team to win just by playing dumbass line ups that make 0 sense. This is the same coach who thought it was smart to play an all bench line up in an NBA Finals series.

Everybody with a pair of eyes knows that you should close out games with Murray/White/DeRozan/Gay/Aldridge, but Pop will find a way to have Mills out there 100%. I wouldn't even be surprised if he lets one of Murray or White walk for nothing while resigning Bryn Forbes instead

[RC_Drunkford]

I really think Pop is showcasing both Mills and Beli. Makes too much sense to do so. Theyll be traded soon. You heard it here first. They will make minutes for Lonnie.

My other theory is Pop is OK to lose like this to show the vets that its time for a change. This will allow him to ease the younger players into bigger roles since obv. the old way isnt working. This will be a season of transition. They talked up Lonnie too much to not give him minutes this season.

You must not know Pop. There is no way he will ever trade Mills. He'd rather let Forbes walk at the end of the season than Mills, but I expect both to be on the team next year. Mills is his guy and once you're Pop's guy he will always find a way to play you. He has basically Big 3 status in Popovich's mind. I totally expect Mills to end his career here.

[JPB]

Let's wait for the season to start before assuming anything. We don't know, I don't anyway what happens in practice. Playoffs should be hard fought again and every game will matter.

Why show all your cards in preseason that is made for experimentation? If you can grab a few games out of suprise... Don't also forget Murray is coming back from a severe injury.

Now I could be wrong ofc but I wouldn't be surprised if Spurs start the season with a Murray-white Back court.

[dbestpro]

Pop seems to be going through the motions. Maybe it is time for him to move on too, but if he does he most likely will drink himself to death.

[poopbox]

Beyond the D...hehe, the D.... sorry, had a Beavis and Butthead moment....

Anyway, not to justify this as I agree that they could be dynamic together, is there any possibility Pop is trying to keep White as a punch for the bench like Manu?

This is what I am assuming...

You start Murray...White...and Derozan...who is left to run your second unit?

Patty? Hell no

Marco? Hell no

Forbes ? Interesting...his main problem was that he used to get overwhelmed by bigger guards if you put the ball in his hands to much...but he has gotten a lot stronger since then...but he is easily the best catch and shoot guy you have so putting the ball in his hands is a waste of his primary talent...

Lonnie ? Again interesting...but right now Pop doesn't trust him enough...and honestly Mills and Marco are going to have to shit the bed quite a bit for Lonnie to get any real ballhandling duties...

So I expect White to come off the bench for no other reason that Pop trust the other guards to run the offense...

I also always expected Dejounte to start because right now all his value is wrapped up in guarding the other guys best perimeter players...who tend to be on the floor when the game starts...

[poopbox]

You must not know Pop. There is no way he will ever trade Mills. He'd rather let Forbes walk at the end of the season than Mills, but I expect both to be on the team next year. Mills is his guy and once you're Pop's guy he will always find a way to play you. He has basically Big 3 status in Popovich's mind. I totally expect Mills to end his career here.

We all need to prepare ourselves for the next patty mills contract?

If the spurs actually traded mills I would legit expect an announcement by Pop a day or two later saying he is retiring...

[ZeusWillJudge]

The problem is, unless someone else shows up with a 3P shot, you can't keep Forbes out of the SL, and you know the starters are going to get the lion's share of the minutes. Murray and White can't "destroy" other teams if they're playing against their benches. There's no way DDR is going to play a Ginobili role off the bench.

I was hopeful that DJ and White would both come back with a dependable 3P shot. Or at least one of them would. If that doesn't happen, there's just not a hell of a lot of flexibility in this team's SL. Forbes, DDR, and Aldridge all three have to be there.
So what is Pop gonna do? DJ/Forbes/White/DDR/LMA?

If anybody (Murray, White, or DDR) had developed a dependable 3P shot, I think they would have come out chunking them in the preseason. Murray has made a few, but it hasn't exactly been a featured part of his game. So that means Pop is going to have to count on Carrol/Gay/Belli for some spacing.

So do the math. Murray/White probably isn't in the cards. Pop might have a look in the preseason, jut for laughs. But it can't feature in the regular season unless at least one of those other three starts throwing up and hitting 3's.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Let's wait for the season to start before assuming anything. We don't know, I don't anyway what happens in practice. Playoffs should be hard fought again and every game will matter.

Why show all your cards in preseason that is made for experimentation? If you can grab a few games out of suprise... Don't also forget Murray is coming back from a severe injury.

Now I could be wrong ofc but I wouldn't be surprised if Spurs start the season with a Murray-white Back court.


That CIA stuff wears pretty thin. What this group is desperately short on is 3P shooting. You don't hide that if you've got it. You want opposing defenses to have to honor the deep ball. That's what spacing is all about.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

This is an excellent point, TimVp. Any chance you could just drop a copy of this article on Pop's desk? Maybe on the assistant's desks, as well, in the hopes that one of them might show him the light.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Pop watched too much Patty during FIBA, and is convinced that he's actually a good NBA player.

[rjv]

i was hoping the article would address the one obvious concern about having both white and murray out on the floor at the same time, and that would be the concern that until one of them can develop a consistent outside three-point shot, spacing will be a problem.

[sananspursfan21]

To be clear, I'm fine with White coming off the bench. Hell, Ginobili was a bench player for almost his entire career and he'll be a Hall of Famer.

My issue is just Pop actively avoiding playing Murray and White together. Maybe it's an overreaction to preseason play but he usually gives pretty clear hints about his desired rotation during preseason.

My number one interest this preseason was to see how Murray and White fit. I never considered that Pop wouldn't look to play those two together at all . . .

The fact that there is absolutely no overlap between their minutes is concerning. I hope it’s just Pop trying to teach these guys self reliance at the point. I really want to see the “Shutdown Brothers” in action dang it!

[sananspursfan21]

This is what I am assuming...

You start Murray...White...and Derozan...who is left to run your second unit?

Patty? Hell no

Marco? Hell no

Forbes ? Interesting...his main problem was that he used to get overwhelmed by bigger guards if you put the ball in his hands to much...but he has gotten a lot stronger since then...but he is easily the best catch and shoot guy you have so putting the ball in his hands is a waste of his primary talent...

Lonnie ? Again interesting...but right now Pop doesn't trust him enough...and honestly Mills and Marco are going to have to shit the bed quite a bit for Lonnie to get any real ballhandling duties...

So I expect White to come off the bench for no other reason that Pop trust the other guards to run the offense...

I also always expected Dejounte to start because right now all his value is wrapped up in guarding the other guys best perimeter players...who tend to be on the floor when the game starts...

One thing I find interesting is that a lot of the pundits are lauding the Spurs for their versatile roster, particularly the bench, yet assuming this is how Pop feels, he doesn’t trust many with handling the ball there :lol

I also replied to timvp about the fact that maybe he’s teaching both points to not rely on one another? I dunno, speculation but unlike so many here, I still try to trust Pop, even when it’s difficult.

[emanueldavidginobili]

I can understand them not starting together and then having Derrick run the show for the second unit, but for them not to play a single SECOND together in 3 games is just ridiculous. Also what’s probably bothering me more is Marco playing more than Lonnie. It’s sickening it really is, this is the only team in the NBA that would play Marco over Lonnie.

[RC_Drunkford]

We all need to prepare ourselves for the next patty mills contract?

If the spurs actually traded mills I would legit expect an announcement by Pop a day or two later saying he is retiring...

He can't trade Patty. Everybody on the team loves Mills and it would hit the team morale a lot if you trade him. From Rudy, LA, DeMar, Bryn, etc. everybody loves Patty cause he's a great team mate. And he's the leader in the locker room. Trading him during midseason would just not work out well. The thing is, Forbes is basically a better and cheaper version of Patty, so he should be the odd man out from a basketball standpoint, but you know that's not the #1 priority of this organization

[KDKSpurs24]

I can understand them not starting together and then having Derrick run the show for the second unit, but for them not to play a single SECOND together in 3 games is just ridiculous. Also what’s probably bothering me more is Marco playing more than Lonnie. It’s sickening it really is, this is the only team in the NBA that would play Marco over Lonnie.
I just posted about this in another thread. Sucks seeing Spoelstra let Tyler Herro shine and other rookies and second year guys getting way more opportunities than Walker (even on better teams than us).

[TheGreatYacht]

They stopped being ashamed the minute they published that "Patty is the new Big 3 member..." article some years ago.

LMA, Kawhi and 50 :lmao
How did I forget that :lmao

[wildbill2u]

Does White have the mentality of a shooter enough to play SG opposite Murray? His shooting and Murray's have both improved, but we know Murray is probably permanent as PG. Perhaps a pairing of Murray and (eventually) Walker is the right combo. Walker looks like he has the right mentality for a SG, but needs work on his outside shot.

Then you put in White and Forbes off the bench. Both playing their natural positions.

White and Murray play together when you absolutely need to get a stop on defense or to protect a lead. They are proven and I have a hunch Walker could be on the floor with them in that situation. Pretty damn tough defense on the perimeter to close out a game

Whether it comes this year or next, that looks like the right guard rotation for the future.

The future's so bright I gotta wear shades. :hat

[phxspurfan]

CIA Pop

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

Pop often takes the long view, and it is hard to exactly say what his motivation is. It could be that he is waiting for White to play better to get in the starting lineup, or something simple, albeit weird, like that.

On a sidenote, young players who play the summer in international competition usually do better the next year, and so far for White that is not happening.

[John B]

This is what I am assuming...

You start Murray...White...and Derozan...who is left to run your second unit?

Patty? Hell no

Marco? Hell no

Forbes ? Interesting...his main problem was that he used to get overwhelmed by bigger guards if you put the ball in his hands to much...but he has gotten a lot stronger since then...but he is easily the best catch and shoot guy you have so putting the ball in his hands is a waste of his primary talent...

Lonnie ? Again interesting...but right now Pop doesn't trust him enough...and honestly Mills and Marco are going to have to shit the bed quite a bit for Lonnie to get any real ballhandling duties...

So I expect White to come off the bench for no other reason that Pop trust the other guards to run the offense...

I also always expected Dejounte to start because right now all his value is wrapped up in guarding the other guys best perimeter players...who tend to be on the floor when the game starts...
Tbh Spoon would be the answer as the backup PG. He has the poise, skills to run the offense and play quality defense. But of course that’s not going to happen this season.

[Mugen]

It'll probably materialize right before they get eliminated in the 1st round again tbh :lol

[DPG21920]

I was really optimistic going into the off season but now? I have legit concerns. White and Murray need to take leaps in order for SA to make the playoffs and Lonnie probably has to force his way into the rotation with solid play.

The floor is scary low right now.

[poopbox]

Tbh Spoon would be the answer as the backup PG. He has the poise, skills to run the offense and play quality defense. But of course that’s not going to happen this season.

I feel the exact same way. In a perfect world the answer to that question would be Spoon because he is a modern nba point guard...good size...moves his feet...not afraid to shoot or attack the basket...

However Spoon is on a two way contract...you think Pop is going to play a guy any meaningful minutes on a two way contract...even if he could :lol ... the two way contract pretty much tells you he might get some of those I am resting everybody tonight against the knicks Spoon your starting tonight minutes...and thats about it...

[poopbox]

One thing I find interesting is that a lot of the pundits are lauding the Spurs for their versatile roster, particularly the bench, yet assuming this is how Pop feels, he doesn’t trust many with handling the ball there :lol

I also replied to timvp about the fact that maybe he’s teaching both points to not rely on one another? I dunno, speculation but unlike so many here, I still try to trust Pop, even when it’s difficult.

I don't fault pop either...I don't trust Mills and Marco to even play basketball anymore let alone run the offense...I think Lonnie could do it eventually but he has to take his lumps like Murray and White did...it won't be pretty for him while he learns like it wasn't pretty for them at times...

On this team we have exactly 3 guys who can "run the offense"...and what I mean by that is they can get everybody into the position they are supposed to be...they can run the offensive set completely...they can quickly spot when the defense is out of position and break the set for an easy bucket...and they can in some way shape or form create a shot for themselves...that is murray, white, and derozan...so if you start all 3...who is left to do it when you start subbing them...

[poopbox]

He can't trade Patty. Everybody on the team loves Mills and it would hit the team morale a lot if you trade him. From Rudy, LA, DeMar, Bryn, etc. everybody loves Patty cause he's a great team mate. And he's the leader in the locker room. Trading him during midseason would just not work out well. The thing is, Forbes is basically a better and cheaper version of Patty, so he should be the odd man out from a basketball standpoint, but you know that's not the #1 priority of this organization

I would say there is a fundamental problem with your team and your veterans assuming leadership roles if a backup point guard who is on most nights a negative is that much of a leader in your locker room...

It's getting pretty crazy the stuff that Pop gets away with because he was Pop... i feel like if any other team kept a backup point guard on the roster because he was a leader people would talk about the lack of leadership on the team...

[TD 21]

I dont know why people are "curious" to see White and Murray together. They played spot minutes together two seasons ago. It rendered the other player useless. Both of them are at their strongest when they have the ball in their hands.


I really think Pop is showcasing both Mills and Beli. Makes too much sense to do so. Theyll be traded soon. You heard it here first. They will make minutes for Lonnie.

My other theory is Pop is OK to lose like this to show the vets that its time for a change. This will allow him to ease the younger players into bigger roles since obv. the old way isnt working. This will be a season of transition. They talked up Lonnie too much to not give him minutes this season.

Another call I made was that Poetl was going to continue to start. It was common sense but idiots like

Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557)
kept forcing the idea that Aldridge would be at center. This line up will work, it just takes patience.

I thought then and still think DeMar should move to Shooting guard and then move Gay to small forward.

It makes perfect sense. Gay can guard other small forwards better than DeRozan can and Derozan is considered a big guard.
Gay isnt big enough to guard the 4. Dude got bullied by Millsap in last year's playoffs. He doesnt need starter minutes, he just needs to start. 20 minutes for Gay, 28 minutes for Carroll at small forward.




So we're going to base their viability as a tandem off of spot minutes from their infancy in the league? They can work, just not alongside DeRozan, as I explained.

No chance Mills is traded.

Why is the genius always given a free pass? He's as complicit in this 3 phobia that has engulfed this organization as anyone. Plenty of coaches have gotten plenty of established players to modernize their games, yet he can't even do it with young, unestablished types?

It won't because of the structure, not the relative newness. You can't play lineups with one 3-point shooter and expect to be successful.

There's no difference between DeRozan nominally playing "SG" or "SF". He's a wing. Murray and White will guard the best opposing perimeter player, so his job description doesn't change.

Gay has about as much chance of playing "SF" as Aldridge has of playing "PF". Even an organization as archaic as this realized he was strictly a "PF" the moment they signed him. At 6'8'' 240 with a 7'3'' wingspan, he plenty big enough. Similarly sized - smaller big wings like M. Williams, T. Young, J. Green, etc. were converted years ago. Sure, he'll have the odd matchup where he struggles, but for the most part he's thrived playing up a position (so has Aldridge).

The way this team is constructed, even if he could still play "SF", they can't afford for him to with 7 players who will see regular - spot minutes from 1-3 already and only 4 others who will from 4-5.




Looks like you had Mills and Belinelli out of the rotation to start the season. If only...


Good call on the starting lineup but the point at hand is I don't think anyone assumed there'd be a chance that White and Murray wouldn't play together at all. I thought one of the two of them would come off the bench but I fully expected lineups featuring both of them, particularly to close out games.

Why? There's no difference between the starting/closing units in terms of the need for floor spacing. If anything, it's a bigger concern down the stretch, which is why teams, including this one, have often closed small for years.

[Seventyniner]

I'm not worried about this yet. There has been no reason to put a closing lineup on the floor in the preseason. If Pop's closing lineup doesn't regularly include both Murray and White then I would be concerned, but it will take a regular season game or two to find that out.

[FkLA]

I thought Pop saw White as Ginobili part two. So far, it looks like Pop considers White to be Jacque Vaughn part 2.

:depressed

If it continues into the season I will quit, tbh.

[ismael-robert]

Hey timvp can we finally get rid of the tandem of a certain kawhi thread and the spurs forum

[JPB]

This is what I am assuming...

You start Murray...White...and Derozan...who is left to run your second unit?



You don't necessarily have to pull both out at the same time.

[poopbox]

You don't necessarily have to pull both out at the same time.

you don't...but somebody has to run the second unit...

[John B]

you don't...but somebody has to run the second unit...
I know it’s not happening anytime soon. But I think they should accelerate Spoon’s development. He has the poise to become a true PG, plus the body to defend, unlike Mills. Imo Spoon is the answer to get Murray/White playing together in the starting line up.

[poopbox]

I know it’s not happening anytime soon. But I think they should accelerate Spoon’s development. He has the poise to become a true PG, plus the body to defend, unlike Mills. Imo Spoon is the answer to get Murray/White playing together in the starting line up.

I totally agree...but he is on a two way...so not happening this year...and next year he is going to have to compete with mills and whatever trash ass castoff guard we sign in the off season to replace marco...so i am not getting my hopes up

[Cklbmk]

Agree completely... I don't get why pairing them up for just a look wouldn't be something to experiment with in the pre-season. That would also give guys like Forbes and Mills more time against the bench players of opposing teams rather than starters.
DeRozan is a big part of the problem-- if he shot the three, I think pairing two average shooters in the back court wouldn't be as much of an issue. But with a non shooting SF, maybe Pop feels there's not enough spacing. I still contend that trading DeRozan would be the solution. He was an enormous net negative in the playoffs, and is a No 3 & little D player in an era when 3 & D is the golden benchmark that most teams aim for.


Not to mention Mills and Forbes next to each other isn't too hot either

[exstatic]

[everyone at the end of the season] There is NO WAY that White and DJ can play together.
[everyone now] WTF? Why isn't Pop playing them together?

[boutons_deux]

Greg Popovich said that he would retire when Timmy retires. Timmy retired, and Pop hasn’t.

Pop said that when his wife was living.

[timvp]

For record keeping purposes, Murray and White ended up playing together in preseason for a grand total of zero seconds. How long will that continue into the regular season? That'll be one of the most interesting subplots early on, IMO.

[FkLA]

Pop was doing 6-7 minute stints for both of them. Would be insane if he continues that since it would mean both White and IB would only average 24-26 mpg. His pets Wombat and Belli have to eat though. :rolleyes

[spurspl]

this tandem wont materialize bc they do not match. They r both a pg and cant play on the other position. DJ needs a 3pt shooters around him and there is no place for white. On the other hand, white needs a defender and 3pt shooter. U can say that dj is a great defender but he wouldnt add anything else being next to white.

[acoelho1]

If this holds, it probably means White is on the bench at the end of games. I doubt Murray would be ok with sitting during those times.

[timvp]

this tandem wont materialize bc they do not match. They r both a pg and cant play on the other position.In today's NBA, they can both easily defend 1 and 2 ... and probably 3.


DJ needs a 3pt shooters around him and there is no place for white.DeRozan is a three-point shooter and will play 48 minutes per game?


On the other hand, white needs a defender and 3pt shooter. Belinelli and Mills are defenders?


U can say that dj is a great defender but he wouldnt add anything else being next to white.

https://i.imgur.com/WKOlNKb.jpg

[spurspl]

DeRozan is a three-point shooter and will play 48 minutes per game?.

Belinelli and Mills are defenders?




hope ddr will play 0min in spurs jersay, hes not a 3pt shooter like noone (except belli) in a roster

belli? mills? srlsly?? old slow veteran and overpaid bench role player??

[timvp]

Still waiting.







Maybe this is Pop's way of forcing himself not to overplay Murray? Murray can't play more than about half the game if Murray and White aren't allowed to play together. Kinda weird but I guess it's a viable plan.

[ElNono]

Honestly, it's Forbes that has to lose minutes/get hurt for this to happen more often. White is really a SG...

[vander]

White needs to shoot the 3 better and more often, then they can play together. hopefully he's working on his 3 point shot as much as Murray is, though for some reason I doubt it

[SayTown]

I guess we will have to wait till the playoffs when we are in an elimination game and down 20 to see this.

[RC_Drunkford]

At least he played Forbes and Mills together:lol

[XDT76]

White needs to shoot the 3 better and more often, then they can play together. hopefully he's working on his 3 point shot as much as Murray is, though for some reason I doubt it

Somehow I felt that making the final USMNT does him more harm than good.

[John B]

In the lost against Celtics, Pop played both Murray and White together, albeit for a mere 2 minutes. With the disastrous defensive showing last game, can we expect to start seeing Murray/White combo? I think Pop could stagger Murray/White/Demar to play PG/Combo to facilitate the offense and play Carroll more in SF, and avoid any combination of Forbes/Mills/Beli out there.

[FkLA]

In the lost against Celtics, Pop played both Murray and White together, albeit for a mere 2 minutes. With the disastrous defensive showing last game, can we expect to start seeing Murray/White combo? I think Pop could stagger Murray/White/Demar to play PG/Combo to facilitate the offense and play Carroll more in SF, and avoid any combination of Forbes/Mills/Beli out there.

:lol Nah. I'm pretty sure it had more to do with the hockey line sub he made early in the 1st Qtr than him finally seeing the light. As he was subbing the starters back in he accidentally paired them before quickly realizing "oh shit I need more spacing, get out there Bryn".

Gotta admit though, that White/Murray/DD/Gay/LMA line-up we saw for those two minutes was pretty arousing. That's the line-up I always envisioned would be the closing/playoff line-up. For a second, I got a small glimmer of hope that Pop was finally going to play his best horses to try to get back into the game. Then he quickly crushed that hope.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

Starting lineup needs defense bad. DJ, White, Carrol, Lyles, LMA. Seems reasonable to me, then let the second come in to get points. Minutes would be staggered, but some changes beed to be made.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

To put it another way, everyone is getting fixated on DJ versus White sharing the court together or not, but I think the bigger issue is LMA and DD not being able to share the court together. They both play so individualistically, I think they should be split up.

DD can either shoot more 3s (which he seems to be making, but disinterested in taking) or move to 6th man and feast on the backups and run the offense through him.

[TDomination]

Starting lineup needs defense bad. DJ, White, Carrol, Lyles, LMA. Seems reasonable to me, then let the second come in to get points. Minutes would be staggered, but some changes beed to be made.
DDR off the bench would be great. Not for his ego of course but it’d be great for the team

[TDomination]

To put it another way, everyone is getting fixated on DJ versus White sharing the court together or not, but I think the bigger issue is LMA and DD not being able to share the court together. They both play so individualistically, I think they should be split up.

DD can either shoot more 3s (which he seems to be making, but disinterested in taking) or move to 6th man and feast on the backups and run the offense through him.

i seriously wish you could just get into pops brain and make him truly consider this. DDR and LMA are just 2 players that should not be on the court together if their main thing is midrange. DDR can actually pretty dangerous if he came off the bench and played against the other teams bench

[John B]

i seriously wish you could just get into pops brain and make him truly consider this. DDR and LMA are just 2 players that should not be on the court together if their main thing is midrange. DDR can actually pretty dangerous if he came off the bench and played against the other teams bench
A true 3 and D like Carroll would really make a big difference instead of Demar. And you’re right. Demar could feast on other teams’ 2nd unit and even act as the primary ball handler instead of White who can now move in the starting over Forbes

[John B]

This would require big balls from Pop to move Demar in the 2nd unit. A starting lineup of Murray, White, Carroll, Lyles, Aldridge. Demar actsnas the primary facilitator in 2nd unit with Forbes, Beli(Walker), Gay and Poeltl. Not bad.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

Obviously it’s not likely they’re going to move DD to the second unit, but I think another potential benefit is that if he starts the game against scrubs and gets his scoring going he might be much more engaged in the game which would be helpful in the fourth quarter, because like Manu he could still close games.

[John B]

He is not going to like it at all being in contract year. It would put a big dent of what little value in his stock. But if he agrees, it would be a perfect scenario and Spurs could sign him extended years playing 6th man. It’s a pipe dream but should solve the situation playing Manu’s role.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

Realistically, it would hurt his perceived value. But there’s a small chance that it could make him appear to be more of a team player and less of a lonewolf offensive player who can’t adapt. A lot of this could depend on who his agent is, and how objective they are about the situation and his dwindling market value.

[baseline bum]

DDR off the bench would be great. Not for his ego of course but it’d be great for the team

Even better if they put his desk in the basement.

[poopbox]

0 % chance of Derozan coming off the bench...LMA will actually pass the ball to someone cutting to the basket before that happens