Grades: Spurs vs. Celtics - Nov. 9, 2019 [Archive]

Truth4sale$

11-10-2019, 02:59 AM

Spurs are experiencing serious identity and growing pains. This team is built to compete but not win a championship. The Spurs HAVE to win at home. This team misses a leader vocally, although Murray tries and Patty too.
but the team needs that physical leader who brings it on the floor with effort. The only guy I consistently see do the little things is Derrick White. It is a shame the veterans dont bring it. Rudy Gay and Belinelli are inconsistent.Aldridge and DeRozan are concerned about stats. Sad. Very sad

tbdog

11-10-2019, 04:22 AM

Yeah, Spurs not having identity is the most obvious. That's coaching and our point guard causing that.

Robz4000

11-10-2019, 04:53 AM

:lol B- for Pop. Otherwise I agree with the grades. One would figure at some point Pop will go to the young players/those who play with effort but this is Pop. Might end up deciding how this season goes early.

vavvi

11-10-2019, 05:00 AM

Spurs identity has always involved:
1. Thinking. Smart play, smart coaching, smart organization
2. Competitive spirit, heart, not giving up

Even limited no-offense Spurs 17-18 had both.
And this year Spurs team is so frustrating because it lacks both. When it wins it wins on pure talent.
It looks like we aren't scouting and don't care about how opponents play. And also we're not competing when it doesn't go our way. So many hustle plays are lost, so many easy rebounds given away.

MoSpur02

11-10-2019, 05:03 AM

I sat court side past couple of games and our main problem is defense and lack of ball movement when the Spurs aren’t getting anything from Aldridge. Tonight the Celtics were just better than the Spurs in all facets of the game. Passing, shooting, and defense. They look so much better than when they had Kyrie. Their hot shooting tonight put the Spurs to bed early.

Two things I’ve noticed that are pluses for the Spurs are Lyles’ play and White coming back to the 2018-2019 White. Lyles’ confidence in his shooting is growing and his IQ is more than what I expected. He fits in great here in San Antonio. Despite White having to run from the exercise bike to the court because of the butt injury, he is focused and looking good on both sides of the court.

Another thing I saw that amazed me was Metu’s athleticism. Wow. If he can learn the system a lot more he’s going to be a solid player for the Spurs. Also Lonnie is thinking to much on the court.

venitian navigator

11-10-2019, 05:24 AM

The sad truth nobody is seeing is that our actual point guard has limited play making skills... Murray is our best athlete boy his mid range game is limited and if the goal is to let him play the point guard starting line up in the long run, we'll boys it will take a lot and lot of time... With no clear outcome! One thing is for sure... His actual game is the opposite of what lma game needs. I understand the confidence thing, exprvially when you decided to pay djm big buckets for a long time, but if last year told us something is that his last year injury causing dw playing the point has been a blessing in desguise... Simply because dw is the only player in this roster with real. Play making skills... That are the only ones that can give the chance to feed a player like lma also in difficult situation.

XDT76

11-10-2019, 05:46 AM

I hope Belli continue to stink on the defence so much that Pop gives up.

EasyMoney

11-10-2019, 05:46 AM

LaMarcus doesn't even deserve a grade.

poopbox

11-10-2019, 06:19 AM

It says a lot about this organization that LMA is so obviously just a soft loser cancer of a player but the spurs just won't pull the trigger and ship him out... You aren't winning ANYTHING with a moody malcontent who's effort on the court is dictated by how many times he gets to shoot the ball... These games mean almost nothing to the spurs in the grand scheme of things because once LMA is no longer here they can actually play modern basketball and not have to keep dumping it in to some guy over and over so once every blue moon he can abuse steven adams or clint capella...

sananspursfan21

11-10-2019, 08:32 AM

I hate to say it, but I think I’m boarding the anti- :lma

KobesAchilles

11-10-2019, 09:39 AM

When does Murray get off his minutes restriction?

Thunder1

11-10-2019, 09:47 AM

Thanx for the grades..right now, it seems as if the Spurs are just a young team, mixed with some vets, that are trying to sort things out..as the reason progresses, I think they'll improve quite a bit..

Mugen

11-10-2019, 10:39 AM

Poetl sucked to start last season too but at least he had the new to the system excuse. Hopefully he gets it together.

I hate Derozan's game so much. You just know every Spurs' mini run is going to come to a screeching halt with a Derozan dribble fest followed by a clanked mid ranger.

Spurs da champs

11-10-2019, 10:58 AM

Poop needs to retire, he should've retired with Tim. Maybe than we wouldnt of ended up with DeFrozen & Poeltl (no upside whatsoever).

Truth4sale$

11-10-2019, 11:09 AM

Spurs players just didn't match the physicality, and often they never do. Their also is no emotion from the players with the exception of patty. No encouragement for teammates, all u see is DeRozan whine to a referee.
Sad, very sad.

Dr. John R. Brinkley

11-10-2019, 11:26 AM

If Pop knows they aren’t re-signing DD, then they need to shake up his role somehow because it isn’t working. He’s been given enough free rein playing his game. Move him to the bench. If he opts into his player option, the Spurs are screwed. I’m not saying we are there yet, but probably soon.

tbdog

11-10-2019, 12:10 PM

John B

11-10-2019, 12:11 PM

Thanks Timvp. I knew it was a Fools Gold to grade Aldridge A+ in the OKC win. He has fallen in love with perimeter game and doe not want to engage low. Unless he demands and foces his way in the paint, he can’t have a grade better than D imo. The guy is charmin soft, and it hurts the whole team when your leader doesn’t want to fight. The rest of the team’s effectiveness suffers, doesn’t create open shots. Likewise the sane for Demar’s unwillingness to hit 3’s. His perimeter defender will not rotate. It’s just a bad combination, aggravated by Forbes/Mills/Beli unathleticness and ineptiveness to defend. Against a better them, Spurs get picked and exposed. Bottomline.

tbdog

11-10-2019, 12:22 PM

The game against thunder, Spurs had an identity. This game, our perimeter players just took their turn. Bad strategy and it left LMA not caring.

K...

11-10-2019, 12:41 PM

NBA teams don't scout regular season games. What the difference is that we went from having two of the most intelligent basketball minds of all time who knew how to exploit match ups. LMA probably thinks the game plan is always two words "my touches" and can't be bothered to figure out how to earn touches. Same with Derozan. The last "smart" player we had was Anderson.\

So while many people want to flip a switch and say championships or tank, the real danger is instilling the next generation with the dumb mentality. I would not be surprised if we soft tank this year and start limiting vet minutes.

ZeusWillJudge

11-10-2019, 12:47 PM

Aldridge didn't get an A+ in back-to-back games...

:lol Great summary. Beautifully understated. Usually when someone goes from A+ to F in just a couple of days, it's time to prescribe Ritalin.

Thanks for the grades, as always. I'm not sure I could define exactly what "chemistry" is on a basketball team, but I feel pretty confident saying this ain't it.

RC_Drunkford

11-10-2019, 01:09 PM

Spurs can't win if they don't play Aldridge ball. They gotta dump it into the post often and get him going early. He's the most talented player on this team, so play through him. That's how this team made the playoffs for the past 2 years. All that other shit they do out there is just horrible offense.

Pop not being able to have his team come out aggressive is also pretty bad. A lot of those guys seem to have tuned the coach out and I can't blame them for it. All his oldschool methods don't seem to work so well without the big 3 on the team

FkLA

11-10-2019, 01:30 PM

Was the offense even the problem? Yeah, LMA looked disengaged (tbf the perimeter guys weren't even looking for him) but the Spurs still scored plenty of points. I dont see how LMA scoring more points changes the fact that their perimeter guys had a field day out there.

It's also fucking baffling that Pop saw them get what they wanted for 4 quarters, and at no point thought "hey let me throw my best perimeter defenders at them". No White-Murray aside from a minute, no Lonnie until garbage time, very little Carroll. Instead the genius line subs a unit that includes his two worst perimeter defenders midway through the 1st Qtr. He also plays Forbes-Wombat alongside Murray in the second half. Then he has the audacity to say that he was excited to face the Celtics, but that his team apparently wasnt as excited. That they lacked "aggression and effort". It's like nah bruh, their thouroughbreds are just better than the ponies you insist on throwing out there. No amount of effort or trying is going to allow Belli, Wombat, and even Forbes to stay with guys like Brown, Kemba, Tatum. Throw your best horses at them to give the team a fair chance.

The B- grade for Pop is laughable, OP. No offense.

Sugus

11-10-2019, 01:33 PM

The Spurs need change at the top. Whether it's the coach, or the star players - someone has to give, because the team as currently constructed isn't doing much of anything in the postseason and is too talented to properly tank. Dream scenario for next off-season; Pop hangs it up at last, we ship out LMA and DD for scraps, and we finally buy into the young movement and let these guys shoot 3s without fear of getting benched.

John B

11-10-2019, 03:43 PM

Our switch defense and boxing out is awful. Same with the Hawks game. Too many demoralizing open dunks. It was terrible to watch. I’m sorry but our Defense Coach needs to step up. 39 points allowed in the 1st quarter, 60 points in the half? I rather Spurs play defense first and that’s not playing combination of Forbes/Mills/Beli. Probably not start Forbes and stagger Murra/White/Demar in the PG/Combo position.

timvp

11-10-2019, 03:54 PM

Was the offense even the problem? Yeah, LMA looked disengaged (tbf the perimeter guys weren't even looking for him) but the Spurs still scored plenty of points. I dont see how LMA scoring more points changes the fact that their perimeter guys had a field day out there.

Fair points. Some thoughts:

-Spurs scored 115 points but it was a fast paced game so it was mostly fool's gold. The offensive efficiency was sub par.

-Defense was bad but not as bad as the 135 points suggests. Also due to the fast pace.

-Aldridge establishing himself down low would have had a trickle down effect on the rest of the game.
-----The pace would have slowed, which would have helped the Spurs deal with Boston's perimeter talent.
-----Boston would have been forced to go bigger to deal with Aldridge.
----------The Celtics going bigger and playing at a slower pace would have hurt their offensive production
-----Boston was doubling hard on Aldridge, which would have opened more three-point shooting.

I do agree that the Spurs did a poor job of feeding Aldridge, especially early. But it's also on him not to flip the aloof switch just because he's not getting touches.

tbdog

11-10-2019, 03:59 PM

I know Pop's decision have been questionable, especially match ups, but getting rid of him would be a disaster. I think we have lost too many assistance over the years and Becky is the only one that looks like she will be head coach ready at some point. The team lacks identity and strategy. That to me is the coaching staff as a whole plus who ever is running point guard. Last seasons team had an offensive identity. I usually knew what we would run. This year I don't know what we are going to get.

objective

11-10-2019, 04:56 PM

I had a bad, bad feeling when I saw that Forbes was assigned to cover Brown. At first I thought it was a giant insult to Brown to get the Forbes coverage. But when teams have talent, Forbes has to cover someone ... And that's bad. Forbes might put up a better effort than the likes of Marco, but he's still bad on defense.

I'm tired all the sacrifices made for spacing. The bad defense of Forbes, Marco and Mills. And what has it gotten them? Nowhere. Maybe Marco has a hot streak, but at the same time Mills will come back to earth. It just won't 'work' in the long run.

Spurs should just go all in on playing their best players, and their best potential players.

The offense will suck either way. Just go hard with Murray and White and Walker. Best chance they have is to just hope their individual athletes can make plays. Maybe White and Walker grow into good three point shooters. Maybe not, but worth the effort to find out.

Hell, part of why I wanted them to draft a guy like Thybulle or Clarke and getting Milutinov was to go more in the defensive direction. Just choke the opposition and hope to be standing at the end. The beautiful game is dead and buried, Aldridge and DeRozan just want to make 1-on-1 midranges anyway, so go with it all the way by defensively grinding and praying that the midrange and athletic perimeter plays are enough.

Maybe Poeltl will get better with better athletes around him. Maybe not. Wish Milutinov was here, that guy knows how to roll hard and catch.

sasaint

11-10-2019, 05:28 PM

Fair points. Some thoughts:

-Spurs scored 115 points but it was a fast paced game so it was mostly fool's gold. The offensive efficiency was sub par.

-Defense was bad but not as bad as the 135 points suggests. Also due to the fast pace.

-Aldridge establishing himself down low would have had a trickle down effect on the rest of the game.
-----The pace would have slowed, which would have helped the Spurs deal with Boston's perimeter talent.
-----Boston would have been forced to go bigger to deal with Aldridge.
----------The Celtics going bigger and playing at a slower pace would have hurt their offensive production
-----Boston was doubling hard on Aldridge, which would have opened more three-point shooting.

I do agree that the Spurs did a poor job of feeding Aldridge, especially early. But it's also on him not to flip the aloof switch just because he's not getting touches.

You make some good points, however your final point is true in theory only. Boston’s doubling hard on LMA will not result in more threes until LMA learns how to pass and develops the necessary willingness and ability. Hell freezes over first.

FkLA

11-10-2019, 07:59 PM

Fair points. Some thoughts:

-Spurs scored 115 points but it was a fast paced game so it was mostly fool's gold. The offensive efficiency was sub par.

-Defense was bad but not as bad as the 135 points suggests. Also due to the fast pace.

-Aldridge establishing himself down low would have had a trickle down effect on the rest of the game.
-----The pace would have slowed, which would have helped the Spurs deal with Boston's perimeter talent.
-----Boston would have been forced to go bigger to deal with Aldridge.
----------The Celtics going bigger and playing at a slower pace would have hurt their offensive production
-----Boston was doubling hard on Aldridge, which would have opened more three-point shooting.

I do agree that the Spurs did a poor job of feeding Aldridge, especially early. But it's also on him not to flip the aloof switch just because he's not getting touches.

I mean sure, it would've helped if LMA showed up but the defense still looked hopeless to me even in the halfcourt.

I just don't get when and why Pop started valuing shooting/spacing over defense. How he went from a perimeter defense consisting of Green, Anderson, Murray, Manu, Wombat two years ago to Forbes, DeRozan, Murray/White, Beli, Wombat is so frustrating. Both are low ceiling teams, but I enjoyed that team two years ago more than this team. At least the best defenders were getting the bulk of the minutes. For a guy that preaches defense and hates the new age NBA, his moves sure are baffling.

UZER

11-10-2019, 08:23 PM

I mean sure, it would've helped if LMA showed up but the defense still looked hopeless to me even in the halfcourt.

I just don't get when and why Pop started valuing shooting/spacing over defense. How he went from a perimeter defense consisting of Green, Anderson, Murray, Manu, Wombat two years ago to Forbes, DeRozan, Murray/White, Beli, Wombat is so frustrating. Both are low ceiling teams, but I enjoyed that team two years ago more than this team. At least the best defenders were getting the bulk of the minutes. For a guy that preaches defense and hates the new age NBA, his moves sure are baffling.

Pop ain’t benching Patty...ever. No matter how bad he is on offense and/or defense, Pop ain’t gonna bench him. Why? Because reasons.

Just think about how ridiculous that is.

On top of that, he went and found his newer pet who is an exact copy of Patty Mills.

ZeusWillJudge

11-10-2019, 09:02 PM

Fair points. Some thoughts:

-Spurs scored 115 points but it was a fast paced game so it was mostly fool's gold. The offensive efficiency was sub par.

-Defense was bad but not as bad as the 135 points suggests. Also due to the fast pace.

-Aldridge establishing himself down low would have had a trickle down effect on the rest of the game.
-----The pace would have slowed, which would have helped the Spurs deal with Boston's perimeter talent.
-----Boston would have been forced to go bigger to deal with Aldridge.
----------The Celtics going bigger and playing at a slower pace would have hurt their offensive production
-----Boston was doubling hard on Aldridge, which would have opened more three-point shooting.

I do agree that the Spurs did a poor job of feeding Aldridge, especially early. But it's also on him not to flip the aloof switch just because he's not getting touches.

One of the things the Spurs' defense used to do was to slow the pace of the game. It was part of Pop's philosophy. The fast pace itself is a sign that the defense was bad.

timvp

11-10-2019, 09:46 PM

I just don't get when and why Pop started valuing shooting/spacing over defense.

new age NBA

You kinda answered your own question, tbh.

You need shooting to win games in the new age NBA. The Spurs are already teetering on not having enough shooting -- even with playing all their all-shooting, no-defense guys. If Pop would go all defense and forgo shooting completely, that would simultaneously lower the floor and ceiling of this team.

The path to the highest ceiling for this team is to supercharge the offense as much as possible with shooters while using smoke and mirrors (and Murray and White) to make the defense as good as possible.

To be clear, I don't condone playing Belinelli, especially when he's not hitting shots. And I could do with less Mills and Forbes if it meant more White and eventually more Murray. But the answer to San Antonio's problems isn't to go from the worst three-point shooting team in the league and travel further south, IMHO. They're already as low as they can go.

Floyd Pacquiao

11-10-2019, 10:16 PM

Spurs have no 3 and D players. Carroll is too old at this point and Keldon Johnson is a rookie. Sad.

GAustex

11-10-2019, 10:25 PM

TimDunkem

11-10-2019, 10:27 PM

Dr. John R. Brinkley

11-10-2019, 10:51 PM

You can't have DD come off the bench we we have no starting SF.

Not a lot of great options, but it’s addition by subtraction.

ZeusWillJudge

11-10-2019, 11:16 PM

It’s easy to stop LMA by double teaming. If you double competently there is no way LMA will punish you.
Hell usually he turns it over.

Remember when they the would go down low to Duncan and the poor saps would double?

Tim would turn in the face of the double and do something positive with the ball. Bowen made $ off of Tim passing out of the double team.

Remember then? Good times...

Too often, Aldridge doesn't see/feel the double coming, and he reacts too late. By the time he does react, they've got his passing lane(s) cut off.

Tim was incredible at making teams pay for doubling. I used to love watching him wait for the double team to come, almost baiting them into it. Hell, not almost - he would bait them into it. Then snap the perfect pass. Those days are gone forever.

GAustex

11-10-2019, 11:19 PM

Too often, Aldridge doesn't see/feel the double coming, and he reacts too late. By the time he does react, they've got his passing lane(s) cut off.

Tim was incredible at making teams pay for doubling. I used to love watching him wait for the double team to come, almost baiting them into it. Hell, not almost - he would bait them into it. Then snap the perfect pass. Those days are gone forever.
Good times they were

Spurtacular

11-11-2019, 02:35 AM

Defensively, a ton of F's tbh.

tbdog

11-11-2019, 05:14 AM

Not a lot of great options, but it’s addition by subtraction.

We have no SF other than DD. Beli is playing it and Walker plays spot minutes. Both undersize. Carroll and Gay are strictly 4's now with the minutes here and there by 3. Again I don't see how Spurs issues this year is on DD. He is playing really well out there. LMA is the problem.

r0drig0lac

11-11-2019, 07:27 AM

We have no SF other than DD. Beli is playing it and Walker plays spot minutes. Both undersize. Carroll and Gay are strictly 4's now with the minutes here and there by 3. Again I don't see how Spurs issues this year is on DD. He is playing really well out there. LMA is the problem.

players that the Raptors used as sf for a few minutes: Hollis Jefferson, Boucher, Siakam, Stanley and none of these guys would see 1 minute as sf in SA, in fact Carroll can and should be used as sf to increase defense and team size, the question is more about Pop than about players' ability.

Dr. John R. Brinkley

11-11-2019, 09:24 AM

We have no SF other than DD. Beli is playing it and Walker plays spot minutes. Both undersize. Carroll and Gay are strictly 4's now with the minutes here and there by 3. Again I don't see how Spurs issues this year is on DD. He is playing really well out there. LMA is the problem.

I would say DD is a two guard playing up at the three. But in the grand scheme of things, I do think that his style of play, and the limitations in his game, are the foundation of the problems. Yes, he is putting up decent stats right now and LMA isn’t as much, but LMA can’t play in a team system, and I’m not convinced DD can. I mean, LMA has been a great defender before as well. DD? Never.

Is pop causing a lot of the problems also? Yes. But I do think he has shown the ability to fix things as they go.