Grades: Spurs vs. Grizzlies - Nov. 11, 2019

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-memphis-grizzlies-november-11-2019/

tl;dr: Tony Parker's jersey retirement was fun to watch.

[timvp]

https://twitter.com/spurs/status/1194093256759545856

[venitian navigator]

I understand DJM needs as much of confidence as possible, but are we sure the best way to get it is playing in the starting line up?
After his big contract he already knows patfo has full confidence in him...but maybe play in the second unit against weaker players could do better for his confidence...because its impossible to hide that, at least imho, he is the main reason our team is struggling so much. He's showing none to limited play making skills, is reckless in his offensive choices and lose or risk to lose the ball too much...that's the anthitesis of a point guard deserving confidence from his teammates.
Our game starting quarters prove that...also in games where we start strong due to enthusiasm (like against the Celtics).
On top of that he seems to abuse the confidence that patfo is giving to him, he calls his number too often and quite never tries the supposed improved outside shot or three point shot he supposedly improved, and so putting his health at risk trying to penetrate the opposite defense anytime he sees a minimum space (ending a lot of time with his body on the floor).
After last season, after proving to be a balanced point guard that deserved the confidence of the assumed all stars of the team, White deserved to start and after a one year without playing DJM needed to re gain playing time beginning from the bench and possibly with players he already knew well (like Forbes).
imho that's been the biggest mistake of this season...time for our patfo to admit it and get over themselves...

[Longlonglongtimelurk]

https://twitter.com/spurs/status/1194093256759545856
That was really cool to watch. Shows you the Bond these guys had together over nearly 2 decades, such a rare thing to find in professional sport these days and a reminder of how lucky us Spurs fans were.
Thanks for the grades.

[Fireball]

I understand DJM needs as much of confidence as possible, but are we sure the best way to get it is playing in the starting line up?


White is also very inconsistent but maybe it is indeed time to switch it up in the SL, but also to have both on the court together for better defense at some points during the game (especially in the end).

[ceperez]

As the season progresses, Murray's flaws are being exposed! He's got talent, but his mindset is focused on the spectacular play. Thing is, his athleticism is good but not elite!

White is a more cerebral player. But he's not as long or quick as Murray. He doesn't have elite athleticism, just slightly above average. But he still hasn't developed the consistency needed to carry the team.

The 3 best players remain to be Aldrige, DeRozan and Gay. That's the limit of the potential of this team.

[John B]

TP’s retirement ended the glory days. Thank you Tony for the memories. It was hard to swallow the team that I am watching right now. They looked uninterested, out of touch? There is no sense of urgency? Or just plain bonehead. Starting with the head of the snake, LaMarsha Charmin Soft Aldridge. This guy is a loser. Just ship him out. Starts the game with perimeter shots, no defense, prima dona. Bonehead Demar whose game is antiquated and chokes on the line, if his life depended on it. Murray, while has the enthusiasm to compete, seems to have hit the wall. Reality check. This is the NBA and not the practice gym. I can’t believe what I’m seeing. Beat by the lowly Grizzlies at the night honoring Spurs’ greatest PG, in front of his family and friends who came a long way. There is no pride to this team. We were so spoiled for the longest time. And F%ck you Kawhi for derailing the system.

[ZeusWillJudge]

"The Grizzlies aren’t overly talented but their perimeter players are either speedy or burly, which is bad news for players like Forbes and Mills."


Well that's a big problem. It's the freakin' NBA. Guys who aren't speedy and/or burly cant make most teams. (*MOST* teams.) You're saying out loud that the Spurs have two players getting big minutes who can't compete against NBA-caliber players. Really three players, but you didn't include Beli. There's an old saying that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Mills, Beli, and Forbes would be weak links on pretty much every team in the league. They are HOV lanes on the hardwood highway.

And I'm sorry, but the generosity toward Pop is just too much to take. Never mind recapping the whole game - the last minutes of a close game are critical, and Pop was awful. Nowhere was that more apparent than having DDR shoot the T at the very end. Crowder was an idiot, and gave the Spurs life by screaming at the refs. If that technical free throw goes down, the Spurs can still take the game to O/T with a 3P shot. It may have been a small chance to get a W, but it was a legitimate chance. And Pop threw it away. (Be honest - is there anyone here who didn't see that clank coming?) We Spurs fans have always admired and cheered for players who never give up until the final buzzer has sounded. How can we admire or cheer for a coach who does less?

[sananspursfan21]

I hate saying this because I love Forbes’s feel good story, but he looks like a 5 minute at a time situational/role player. He can score it up sometimes and he’s great to break the seal on the basket but his lacking defense can’t be ignored anymore. A few less minutes and maybe narrower windows on the floor would help defensively in my non professional opinion. It wouldn’t fix all defensive woes, but I can’t help but think it would help. And the front court has got to give a crap on defense.

This offense isn’t wonderful, but man with some improved defense, our guys probably sit at 7-3

[ZeusWillJudge]

This offense isn’t wonderful, but man with some improved defense, our guys probably sit at 7-3


I know a lot of people here think Samanic is the Great White Hope (I don't). But imagine this team's defense if the Spurs had said "Matisse Thybulle" instead of Luka Samanic. I don't know if Thybulle's 3P% will ever live up to college, but so far he's shooting them almost as good as Beli. But that D - think about Thybulle getting 100% of Beli's minutes.

[r0drig0lac]

I know a lot of people here think Samanic is the Great White Hope (I don't). But imagine this team's defense if the Spurs had said "Matisse Thybulle" instead of Luka Samanic. I don't know if Thybulle's 3P% will ever live up to college, but so far he's shooting them almost as good as Beli. But that D - think about Thybulle getting 100% of Beli's minutes.

it would be amazing ... in 2022, when he would get a chance to play a few minutes. In the perfect world, Keldon would already be playing a few minutes this season.

[sananspursfan21]

I know a lot of people here think Samanic is the Great White Hope (I don't). But imagine this team's defense if the Spurs had said "Matisse Thybulle" instead of Luka Samanic. I don't know if Thybulle's 3P% will ever live up to college, but so far he's shooting them almost as good as Beli. But that D - think about Thybulle getting 100% of Beli's minutes.

Yeah the Spurs don’t draft based on immediate need, that’s for sure. I mean, two or three years from now we could be talking about what a great draft pick, but he’s doing nothing for us now obviously. At this stage, I’d love to have Thybulle. But even with our constructed roster, I’m not sure he’d get a lot of playing time.

[Spurs da champs]

As long as DJM has a minutes restriction & has to deal with DeFrozen his development will be slow & his play will be inconsistent.

[Mugen]

What's the defensive rating when two of Forbes/Patty/Beli play together? Gotta be terrible.

After summer league, where Lonnie dominated and looked like an intriguing player , along with the prospect of seeing Dejounte/DWhite play together, I was actually pretty excited about watching this team.

10 games in and the old man has probably killed Lonnie's Spurs career and we've seen a few minutes of DJ and White together (and that was probably due to a lineup oversight).

Bottom line: Fuck you Pop. Stick to ceremonies and retire already. The team doesn't give a shit about your schtick and what you have to say. Please just leave.

[mookie2001]

Is anyone else against Murray now? I’m against him start Forbes at pg.

[Arcadian]

Speech grades?

[Dex]

Maybe now all of those Tony and Manu haters will realize how good we truly had it after watching the current squad look like they are just making things up as they go along.

[duncan2150]

People who are taking shots at dejounte are not coherent. He is one of the few spurs player who was good during our good start in term of wins.

I don't have a lot of thing to say about him, white or gay, they played pretty well since the beginning of the season.

My concerns are more about a lot of players who played poorly with little effort and with our defense : it's a team problem not one or two players and also a coaching problems. It's awful to play Mills, Bellineli and even Forbes a lot of minutes. Mills or Forbes are not bad on offense but they are a problem on D and Beli is a problem everywhere on the court.

Forbes is playing too much i'm ok with something about 20 minutes, Beli needs to go to the bench...

All of that i'm not sure that will change a lot of things as the roster is not good built and we need a rim protector that we don't have.

i really don't understand why white and murray are not playing together.

[Mugen]

I just can't believe they guaranteed LMA's 2nd year when they had zero incentive to do so. Just wow.

How many times has this FO been played in like the last 3-4 years? Just misstep after misstep.

[DJR210]

Bend over, I'll show you a loose glute

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I just can't believe they guaranteed LMA's 2nd year when they had zero incentive to do so. Just wow.

How many times has this FO been played in like the last 3-4 years? Just misstep after misstep.

They did it because they aren't going to pay DD what he wants. And they're too scared for life without both DD and LMA.

It's a mistake I agree, if Aldridge isn't guaranteed maybe he plays a little harder instead of robbing the Spurs.

[ZeusWillJudge]

it would be amazing ... in 2022, when he would get a chance to play a few minutes. In the perfect world, Keldon would already be playing a few minutes this season.

Yeah the Spurs don’t draft based on immediate need, that’s for sure. I mean, two or three years from now we could be talking about what a great draft pick, but he’s doing nothing for us now obviously. At this stage, I’d love to have Thybulle. But even with our constructed roster, I’m not sure he’d get a lot of playing time.


Yeah, Pop not playing rookies is a different issue. There are about 12 guys drafted after Samanic who are getting 10+ minutes per game. I'm just saying that Thybulle could have taken all of Beli's minutes, and this would be a better team instantly. So people can say what they want to about the talent problem, but ultimately it's 100% on Pop.

And, yeah, I think Keldon could have moved into the rotation this year without any drop-off from Beli, and the team might have been better off overall. Next year they would be a LOT better off, because Keldon would have that experience.

[UZER]

I just can't believe they guaranteed LMA's 2nd year when they had zero incentive to do so. Just wow.

How many times has this FO been played in like the last 3-4 years? Just misstep after misstep.

Really? You can’t? I mean, they outbid themselves over Patty and 12:01am.

[Spurs fever]

I just can't believe they guaranteed LMA's 2nd year when they had zero incentive to do so. Just wow.

How many times has this FO been played in like the last 3-4 years? Just misstep after misstep.They seem too concerned with their reputation of being a good team that takes care of their players. Perhaps the Kawhi drama made them more urgent. Not sure.

[ShutUp SayItAgain!]

What's the defensive rating when two of Forbes/Patty/Beli play together? Gotta be terrible.

After summer league, where Lonnie dominated and looked like an intriguing player , along with the prospect of seeing Dejounte/DWhite play together, I was actually pretty excited about watching this team.

10 games in and the old man has probably killed Lonnie's Spurs career and we've seen a few minutes of DJ and White together (and that was probably due to a lineup oversight).

Bottom line: Fuck you Pop. Stick to ceremonies and retire already. The team doesn't give a shit about your schtick and what you have to say. Please just leave.

[TimDunkem]

I know a lot of people here think Samanic is the Great White Hope (I don't). But imagine this team's defense if the Spurs had said "Matisse Thybulle" instead of Luka Samanic. I don't know if Thybulle's 3P% will ever live up to college, but so far he's shooting them almost as good as Beli. But that D - think about Thybulle getting 100% of Beli's minutes.

They say the Spurs want to win now but every personnel move says otherwise.

[dbestpro]

The solution to take some of the heat off of Murray is to put White in as PG, and let Murray do his thing as a SG/SF with defense, backdoor cuts and rebounds. Forbes should be brought in situations where we need to bump the offense. This is just so obvious and why I think Pop has lot his frickin' mind.

[DPG21920]

Watching Brandon Clarke hit 3’s at 40% (low volume, but still) makes me happy and sad at the same time.

[spurs10]

Speech grades?


Maybe now all of those Tony and Manu haters will realize how good we truly had it after watching the current squad look like they are just making things up as they go along.
Yeah the ceremony should go a long way at reminding us all how good we had it. 20 years is a long run and winning 5 of the NBA titles in that period is off the chart. Even knowing 'we ain't what we used ta be' this team is really underachieving. I was pretty optimistic before these last two drubbings we've had.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Is anyone else against Murray now? I’m against him start Forbes at pg.

murray need to go shoot 50,000 jumpers and 100,000 three pointers then come back and try again

[SAGirl]

Watching Brandon Clarke hit 3’s at 40% (low volume, but still) makes me happy and sad at the same time.
He has been really solid for Memphis... has looked at times like their best player. Doesn't mean much bc Ja Morant is a rook bound to be inconsistent, and Jaren has been troubled by foul issues (plus Valanciunas has had a foot injury managed that kept him out of preseason games, practices, and has been on minutes restrictions). I think they will get better as a team, but anyways, this is about Clarke. Yup he has been very good (and is in minutes restrictions too).

----------------------------------------

The Spurs have to get Murray playing better IMO. It's not a good thing that he can't get himself going while Demar and LMA are getting their shots, plus Forbes (only reason he's playing in the starting lineup is his offensive game)...

I think Murray can be better than he has been lately. It's on him and coach to figure out how to help him (or make some kind of adjustment, but it's probably premature at this point as it concerns Murray).

White needs to play more minutes, but that has already been said.

And I hadn't shared this b4, but I wish Forbes wasn't starting, even as good as he has been offensively, he gets exploited too much on defense (he tries, he just can't impact a game defensively). He's the kind of guy you'd like to have off the bench, like Mills. Mills has been very impactful offensively though and they really can't play Forbes/Mills together too much. I think the team needs a trade but it's not going to happen, not of Mills nor for Forbes.

[phxspurfan]

"The Grizzlies aren’t overly talented but their perimeter players are either speedy or burly, which is bad news for


:lol so you're saying Spurs can't guard anybody in the NBA

[ZeusWillJudge]

:lol so you're saying Spurs can't guard anybody in the NBA


Pretty much. Some of them anyway. And they're the targets.

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

What's the defensive rating when two of Forbes/Patty/Beli play together? Gotta be terrible.

After summer league, where Lonnie dominated and looked like an intriguing player , along with the prospect of seeing Dejounte/DWhite play together, I was actually pretty excited about watching this team.

10 games in and the old man has probably killed Lonnie's Spurs career and we've seen a few minutes of DJ and White together (and that was probably due to a lineup oversight).

Bottom line: Fuck you Pop. Stick to ceremonies and retire already. The team doesn't give a shit about your schtick and what you have to say. Please just leave.What ever SaBoy

[Mugen]

What ever SaBoy

As long as you're sniffing down there, might as well give it a taste my man. :lol

[Mugen]

Love how OP has dodged giving his reasoning for why Dejounte & Derrick have played less than 5mins together all season and why their MLE signing has barely touched the court 10 games in.

[sasaint]

Love how OP has dodged giving his reasoning for why Dejounte & Derrick have played less than 5mins together all season and why their MLE signing has barely touched the court 10 games in.

As incomprehensible as it is, I understand the Dijon/Derrick deal better than I understand DeMarre's riding the bench. Second in incomprehensibility is Pop's not just playing Marco, but playing him in tandem with Patty. I guess the Dijon/Derrick thing is 3rd on my list.

[gospursgojas]

You’ve been way too hard on Bryn this year. Have you given him a grade higher than a c yet? Arguably our third best player.

And you’ve been equally too easy on Marco all season. Dude is done. Shooting 26% and has a PER of 3.

What gives?

[Mugen]

You’ve been way too hard on Bryn this year. Have you given him a grade higher than a c yet? Arguably our third best player.

And you’ve been equally too easy on Marco all season. Dude is done. Shooting 26% and has a PER of 3.

What gives?

Bryn's grades have been fine. He has the ultimate greenlight but contributes literally nothing else besides his shooting/scoring (thought that's very valuable with this roster). Still not a fan of his and I stay up at night scared to death that the Spurs are gonna pick him over DWhite. 3rd best player on this roster isn't really saying much and he's really not even close to that (Murray and White are much better players) even if the old man thinks he is.

If Beli is able to get from the bench to the scorer's table without falling down, that's probably an automatic C at least. Expectations for his play are rightfully low.

[Drom John]

defensive rating when two of Forbes/Patty/Beli play together

San Antonio Spurs DEFRTG (NBA.com) by pairs (https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&TeamID=1610612759)

Lower is better. 1.00 is average.

94.6 Belinelli/Mills The Spurs best defensive pair with more than 100 minutes
113.2 Forbes/Lyles The Spurs worst defensive pair with more than 100 minutes
123.6 Belinelli/Forbes
124.1 Forbes/Mills

[Dex]

San Antonio Spurs DEFRTG (NBA.com) by pairs (https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&TeamID=1610612759)

Lower is better. 1.00 is average.

94.6 Belinelli/Mills The Spurs best defensive pair with more than 100 minutes
113.2 Forbes/Lyles The Spurs worst defensive pair with more than 100 minutes
123.6 Belinelli/Forbes
124.1 Forbes/Mills

https://media1.giphy.com/media/MEjAMdogUlySqbAOKl/giphy.gif

[SAGirl]

San Antonio Spurs DEFRTG (NBA.com) by pairs (https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&TeamID=1610612759)

Lower is better. 1.00 is average.

94.6 Belinelli/Mills The Spurs best defensive pair with more than 100 minutes
113.2 Forbes/Lyles The Spurs worst defensive pair with more than 100 minutes
123.6 Belinelli/Forbes
124.1 Forbes/Mills
Significant that Forbes is a regular in all the worst defensive pairings. matches my eye test.

Belinelli is not significant tbh bc he always gets assigned to non offensive players/non threats. Occasionally he has to pick someone he shouldn't be defending but it's definitely not by design.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Significant that Forbes is a regular in all the worst defensive pairings. matches my eye test.

Belinelli is not significant tbh bc he always gets assigned to non offensive players/non threats. Occasionally he has to pick someone he shouldn't be defending but it's definitely not by design.

Forbes sucks ass on the defensive side of the ball.

[SAGirl]

Forbes sucks ass on the defensive side of the ball.
I don't think the Spurs will be a defensive team again so long as he's starting IMO. He would be great for 20 minutes off the bench... but that's only in my mind. Spurs don't have a player to start in his stead that can shoot the ball as well... (and they do need the shooting).

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I don't think the Spurs will be a defensive team again so long as he's starting IMO. He would be great for 20 minutes off the bench... but that's only in my mind. Spurs don't have a player to start in his stead that can shoot the ball as well... (and they do need the shooting).

I agree...and his shooting this year doesn't justify keeping him on the floor in spite of his defensive woes.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I was in Vegas and did win money betting against the Spurs beating the spread. So there was a silver lining to this game.

[SAGirl]

I agree...and his shooting this year doesn't justify keeping him on the floor in spite of his defensive woes.

Some would say Lonnie Walker was supposed to be that player (that ate minutes at the SG spot so Bryn doesn't have to), but we have seen how that all went.

I have no idea about Lonnie being able to do that. I am in the camp that feels like a scattered couple of minutes here and there aren't enough to say much about Lonnie. I wish there was some garbage time to observe him more (a few former Spurs youngins back a few years started to make their way to playing minutes that way, CoJo, Anderson, JSimms, even Murray and Forbes, though these two, due to Tony injuries and Nephew sitting out saw action in games way sooner). Anyways, I don't see Forbes getting demoted. Pop loves him way too much and they appear to be really satisfied with him (contrast that with DAvis Bertans getting demoted at times during his tenure, in spite of similar need for shooting, and specially minutes at the forward spot).

There is one other alternative that just occured to me, play Keldon as a SF and move derozan as a SG. What are the chances of that happening according to VEgas? :spin lol

[Mugen]

I was in Vegas and did win money betting against the Spurs beating the spread. So there was a silver lining to this game.

My man, Choppa.