Grades: Spurs @ Magic - Nov. 15, 2019

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-orlando-magic-november-15-2019/

tl;dr: Spurs played well (outside of two areas) but still lost to a sub .500 team. Ouch.

[Russo21]

“We’ve been pretty much kicking ass with that group,” Popovich deadpanned before the game, “so I don’t know why I’d change it.”

Pop regarding the starting 5 being the only starting 5 with a negative net rating. His sarcasm gets old. He's the coach and the only one who can change things up. Getting tired of him. He looks like an over the hill grumpy great grandpa out there.

[vavvi]

Extremely weird. Pop and coaching staff used to always change stuff: record-setting number of starting lineups, constantly changing rotations, putting some weird guys from the end of the bench here and there, changing defensive schemes. We hated a lot of those changes but Pop was always experimenting. This season it's like everything is set in stone, and players go through the motions out there.

[duncan2k5]

I can see why he was almost fired before Tim Duncan saved him

[tbdog]

Extremely weird. Pop and coaching staff used to always change stuff: record-setting number of starting lineups, constantly changing rotations, putting some weird guys from the end of the bench here and there, changing defensive schemes. We hated a lot of those changes but Pop was always experimenting. This season it's like everything is set in stone, and players go through the motions out there.
This. It's so strange. But it does seem that by bringing Murray back it has drastically changed our rotation. Poeltl out, Lyle's on for example.

[ElNono]

Really? DeRozan wasn't rebounding?

Look, I'm not even a fan of DDR, but the guy is basically carrying the offensive load for this team, especially on nights where LMA is MIA.

I get that he's an average to poor defender (I mean, let's be honest, compared to Marco or Patty, he's Bruce Bowen), but Spursfan seriously need to start looking for a different scapegoat, tbh...

[azarel]

its just weird cos the starting 5 somehow can't seem to move the ball well and generate good shots. tbh i find the 2nd team plays a more fluid bball as compared to our starters. Not sure if its simply because the starting 5 need 1 more 3pt shooter besides bryn forbes to space the floor. maybe they shld tell Lyles to let it fly if he's going to be on the floor with the starting 5 cos i don't see how LMA and DDR or DJ will be willing to shoot more 3s... maybe DJ once he gets more confidence in his shot.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Really? DeRozan wasn't rebounding?

Look, I'm not even a fan of DDR, but the guy is basically carrying the offensive load for this team, especially on nights where LMA is MIA.

I get that he's an average to poor defender (I mean, let's be honest, compared to Marco or Patty, he's Bruce Bowen), but Spursfan seriously need to start looking for a different scapegoat, tbh...

yep ... meanwhile white gets 3 points and a C?

[R. DeMurre]

yep ... meanwhile white gets 3 points and a C?

White was +6 in 22 minutes, while DeRozan was -15 in 37 minutes. Pretty typical... the entire team flows better with White in there. For the year DeRozan is at -53. White is at +18. Last season was the same: DeRozan at +10, White at +152. DeRozan was 8th on the team in +/- last year and is 13th this year. Pretty much unheard of for the highest paid player on a team. Giannis, Kawhi, & LeBron are all #1 on their team in the +/- stat.


https://www.foxsports.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs-team-stats?season=2019&category=MISC&group=1&sort=2&time=0&pos=0&team=0&qual=0&sortOrder=0&opp=0

[RC_Drunkford]

I called the C+ for Pop right after the game :lol

[tbdog]

White was +6 in 22 minutes, while DeRozan was -15 in 37 minutes. Pretty typical... the entire team flows better with White in there. For the year DeRozan is at -53. White is at +18. Last season was the same: DeRozan at +10, White at +152. DeRozan was 8th on the team in +/- last year and is 13th this year. Pretty much unheard of for the highest paid player on a team. Giannis, Kawhi, & LeBron are all #1 on their team in the +/- stat.


https://www.foxsports.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs-team-stats?season=2019&category=MISC&group=1&sort=2&time=0&pos=0&team=0&qual=0&sortOrder=0&opp=0

It's the whole starting lineup. Stop putting the blame on DD. The whole starting lineup has massive negative rating, while 20% shooting, defenseless Beli is +18. The Spurs heavily relying on their bench is an understatement. The starting lineup is a shit show of a mess.

[TimDunkem]

DD makes poor decisions, and needs to go, yes, but I would also agree that he's the best player in that godawful starting lineup.

Him and Aldridge both need to go.

[dbestpro]

Pop just seems to be going through the motions. He needs to hold vets accountable like he did with the big three. I think the KL thing, LMAs tears, and DDR's psych has got him lost on how to coach his firebrand style.

[RD2191]

I blame Pop, if he gets a majority of the praise when they win then he deserves the majority when they lose. To me it just seems like a very poorly coached team. Tbh.

[Mugen]

"tl;dr: Who cares? 'Memba the Golden Years?"

[Mugen]

I called the C+ for Pop right after the game :lol

:lol Garbage rotations, benching Dejounte for long stretches of the game (nothing to do with his minute restrictions), Patty the PG, garbage playcalling at the end....C+

Maybe 40% of the grade is how fast Pop can waddle over to the opposing coach after an L to slurp him off, because that's been at an A+ level all year.

[ZeusWillJudge]

You can't overstate the fact that the difference in the score was absolutely the 34-10 FT disparity. When the gap is that big, there is probably some home cooking involved, but most of it is usually one team playing piss-poor team defense, and reaching to try and catch up.

This time last year I was adamant that DDR and Forbes couldn't be on the floor together, because together the revolving door on defense was just too big. By the end of the season, I let myself have hope that Forbes was learning how to use his increased size to his advantage, and that DDR had started to stay more focused on the defensive end. Either I imagined it, or they regressed. But DDR and Forbes can't be on the floor at the same time.

Poeltl's total lack of boxing out is starting to really piss me off. I don't know if he was that bad last year - I'd like to think I would have noticed. But this year he's been like a middle school kid who grew 6 inches over the summer, but doesn't have any understanding of what to do with it.

I quit watching the game at the half. I told my wife that there was no doubt in my mind that the Spurs were going to find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. A big part of that was Aldridge. He was out there taking the plays that came his way, but he showed zero sign of a guy who is hungry for a win. I'm not blaming the loss on him, but with his experience and size, he could easily have rallied the troops, but it was obvious he wasn't going to. On nights like that, Tim would dig deep and lead by example. Aldridge is squishy. And getting squishier.

[KobesAchilles]

Sadly the beginning of the year is our easy part of the schedule.

[Russ]

“We’ve been pretty much kicking ass with that group,” Popovich deadpanned before the game, “so I don’t know why I’d change it.”

I love Pop but his schtick plays way better when he's winning.

If Team USA loses the gold in the Olympics and Pop comes out with some "get over it" smirk, the national media will crucify him like nothing ever before.

No one cares about the Spurs outside SA and the SA media is well-tamed -- but the national team is different. And so is the national media.

Pop might be the first Olympic coach to be impeached.

[vavvi]

Really? DeRozan wasn't rebounding?

Look, I'm not even a fan of DDR, but the guy is basically carrying the offensive load for this team, especially on nights where LMA is MIA.

I get that he's an average to poor defender (I mean, let's be honest, compared to Marco or Patty, he's Bruce Bowen), but Spursfan seriously need to start looking for a different scapegoat, tbh...

Respectfully disagree on the Bruce Bowen argument.
Firstly, I think Patty is not atrociously bad defensively. He's just small which limits him but he can do alright against midgets like himself.
Secondly, the worst defenders in the roster are Beli and Forbes. Forbes is unbelievably bad, much much worse than Patty.
Thirdly, Demar is not Bruce Bowen compared to anyone. He is not a disciplined defender. He does not try on defense. He is easily distracted and moved emotionally. He has a better body than Beli and Mills, but that's it.

Offensively he's a ball stopper. The team doesn't need anyone "carrying the offense" in a loosing effort. Spurs are okay offensively overall and outright good offensively when the bench plays. The problem is defense. And Demar is a worse defender than Carroll or whoever else.

[vavvi]

Sadly the beginning of the year is our easy part of the schedule.

Yeah it's maddening how easily we drop games to tanking teams game after game. And also we have no injuries ((

[TDomination]

Like others have said Mad scientists Pop would have done something drastic with the SL by now. If that move doesn't work try something else. But staying pat is what is so aggravating. I'm getting pissed off. At this point, i just want to see what our future holds.


MAD SCIENTIST POP CHANGE #1 - The Future is Now with White leading the team.

The MAIN focus here is making sure White is your show runner. He seems to be a catalyst with this team, when he's playing well, the team wins. When he's not we lose. Murray can be very good as well, he and White can be a great tandem offensively but mostly defensively. 2 potentially all nba defensive backcourt has a nice ring to it as well. But you won't know unless you play them. The time is now. You need to see what you have so you know what moves you need to make in the offseason.

So here's your new starting lineup:

PG - White (He can drive, pass, score and defend. He is this teams main focus right now. Or at least needs to be. He grew up a lot last year and needs to keep growing.)

SG - Murray (potential star talent. He just needs to keep it going and reel it in a bit. He's got a ton of energy which is great. And having White as the main ball handler will help relieve pressure. Continue working on the 3 ball)

SF - Walker (give him the TP treatment. Be on his butt, but allow him to make mistakes and stay in the game. I don't even know what he could bring to the table at the moment besides great athleticism but we won't know unless he plays. If he continues to suck after 30 games then fine. Lets move one)

PF - Lyles (you keep Lyles in cause he's actually been good. He moves the ball around. He fights for rebounds and has been making the 3 ball lately. Keep him in there)

C - Aldridge (Perhaps not sharing the floor with Derozan will help him? I would worry that he would try to be the main focus as opposed to White but when Aldridge is on we are dangerous as well. He would need to understand that he is not the first option)

BENCH LINEUP

PG - Mills/Forbes (if Mills is not shooting well then play Forbes. It will be back and forth all year.)
SG - Derozan (Main ball handler for the bench squad. He could be really good in this role. 6th man of the year type good. It all depends on how he accepts it too.
SF - Gay/Carroll
PF - Metu (we need to see if he has potential or if we just need to move on. He showed flashes in the wolves game. But let him get real burn for a good span and see what happens)
C - Poetle

[TDomination]

Sadly the beginning of the year is our easy part of the schedule.

Sad indeed

[TDomination]

Respectfully disagree on the Bruce Bowen argument.
Firstly, I think Patty is not atrociously bad defensively. He's just small which limits him but he can do alright against midgets like himself.
Secondly, the worst defenders in the roster are Beli and Forbes. Forbes is unbelievably bad, much much worse than Patty.
Thirdly, Demar is not Bruce Bowen compared to anyone. He is not a disciplined defender. He does not try on defense. He is easily distracted and moved emotionally. He has a better body than Beli and Mills, but that's it.

Offensively he's a ball stopper. The team doesn't need anyone "carrying the offense" in a loosing effort. Spurs are okay offensively overall and outright good offensively when the bench plays. The problem is defense. And Demar is a worse defender than Carroll or whoever else.

This.

I keep harping on this but its just getting on my nerves seeing him in there. Forbes should not be in the SL and should not be finishing games because of his lack of D.

[TDomination]

You can't overstate the fact that the difference in the score was absolutely the 34-10 FT disparity. When the gap is that big, there is probably some home cooking involved, but most of it is usually one team playing piss-poor team defense, and reaching to try and catch up.

This time last year I was adamant that DDR and Forbes couldn't be on the floor together, because together the revolving door on defense was just too big. By the end of the season, I let myself have hope that Forbes was learning how to use his increased size to his advantage, and that DDR had started to stay more focused on the defensive end. Either I imagined it, or they regressed. But DDR and Forbes can't be on the floor at the same time.

Poeltl's total lack of boxing out is starting to really piss me off. I don't know if he was that bad last year - I'd like to think I would have noticed. But this year he's been like a middle school kid who grew 6 inches over the summer, but doesn't have any understanding of what to do with it.

I quit watching the game at the half. I told my wife that there was no doubt in my mind that the Spurs were going to find a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. A big part of that was Aldridge. He was out there taking the plays that came his way, but he showed zero sign of a guy who is hungry for a win. I'm not blaming the loss on him, but with his experience and size, he could easily have rallied the troops, but it was obvious he wasn't going to. On nights like that, Tim would dig deep and lead by example. Aldridge is squishy. And getting squishier.

Exactly. Where is defensive minded pop? did that Pop completely die? its maddening how he continues to trot out Forbes when he's essentially a mismatch against every player he plays against. And DDR not being a good defender definitely makes matters worse.

[TDomination]

I blame Pop, if he gets a majority of the praise when they win then he deserves the majority when they lose. To me it just seems like a very poorly coached team. Tbh.

Agree 100%.

If Pop had already started experimenting and began playing the young guys and try to put every player in a position to where they could be most successfull then i would lay all the blame on the players. But the lineups are confusing and seem to be putting almost every player in a spot to fail.

Like with Murray. "Okay Murray you are our new starter but you will be next to 2 players who can't defend so try to help them." What ends up happening? DJ trying to steal passes, overselling on double teams, essentially trying to do too much. He's got the energy but if he had the help *cough* WHITE *cough* he could actually be better.

[R. DeMurre]

It's the whole starting lineup. Stop putting the blame on DD. The whole starting lineup has massive negative rating, while 20% shooting, defenseless Beli is +18. The Spurs heavily relying on their bench is an understatement. The starting lineup is a shit show of a mess.

True, but as I see it, the main issue is DeRozan. His poor D creates trouble when paired with other poor defenders because he can't be hidden. His non existent three point shot lets defenders sag and help, and clogs the lane. His body language is terrible. He can't come off the bench because he's a "star," even though a decade's worth of advanced stats say otherwise. True stars/max players usually have a body of work that illustrates how they affect winning. DeRozan's body of work shows the opposite. He's the highest paid Spur, but instead of being the most versatile piece on the team, he's the most difficult to slot with other players. The starting line up is a mess because Derrick White should be in it, but isn't because the "star" needs to start.

[TDomination]

It's the whole starting lineup. Stop putting the blame on DD. The whole starting lineup has massive negative rating, while 20% shooting, defenseless Beli is +18. The Spurs heavily relying on their bench is an understatement. The starting lineup is a shit show of a mess.

I believe it has more to do with Forbes and his lack of D. If there is any adjustment thats needed and its with him. But knowing Pop, he will just Forbes with Mills.

[TDomination]

True, but as I see it, the main issue is DeRozan. His poor D creates trouble when paired with other poor defenders because he can't be hidden. His non existent three point shot lets defenders sag and help, and clogs the lane. His body language is terrible. He can't come off the bench because he's a "star," even though a decade's worth of advanced stats say otherwise. True stars/max players usually have a body of work that illustrates how they affect winning. DeRozan's body of work shows the opposite. He's the highest paid Spur, but instead of being the most versatile piece on the team, he's the most difficult to slot with other players. The starting line up is a mess because Derrick White should be in it, but isn't because the "star" needs to start.

I agree with this 100%

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

White was +6 in 22 minutes, while DeRozan was -15 in 37 minutes. Pretty typical... the entire team flows better with White in there. For the year DeRozan is at -53. White is at +18. Last season was the same: DeRozan at +10, White at +152. DeRozan was 8th on the team in +/- last year and is 13th this year. Pretty much unheard of for the highest paid player on a team. Giannis, Kawhi, & LeBron are all #1 on their team in the +/- stat.


https://www.foxsports.com/nba/san-antonio-spurs-team-stats?season=2019&category=MISC&group=1&sort=2&time=0&pos=0&team=0&qual=0&sortOrder=0&opp=0

plus-minus

[Kurgan]

Exactly. Where is defensive minded pop? did that Pop completely die? its maddening how he continues to trot out Forbes when he's essentially a mismatch against every player he plays against. And DDR not being a good defender definitely makes matters worse.

Forbes is a made man. I have no idea how as I don't view him as being much different than Gary Neal or Roger Mason but he's somehow outlasted both of those guys. I expect PATFO are going to compensate him with a very generous contract this summer like they did Mills. That's when the fans will really turn on him.

[TDomination]

Forbes is a made man. I have no idea how as I don't view him as being much different than Gary Neal or Roger Mason but he's somehow outlasted both of those guys. I expect PATFO are going to compensate him with a very generous contract this summer like they did Mills. That's when the fans will really turn on him.
Yup. Forbes actually really grew on me last year. He was consistent in the playoffs and was really the only one who showed up in game 7 last year. Him in a bench role would probably not only help him but help the team. He's just being put in a position to fail IMO.

[SAGirl]

Sadly the beginning of the year is our easy part of the schedule.
And save for Murray’s minutes restrictions they are all healthy.

I was just thinking perhaps they would improve with injuries bc Pop would be forced to play other guys and find different lineups to adjust...

[R. DeMurre]

plus-minus

Plus-minus with a small sample size doesn't mean much-- but when the sample size is a whole season, or a whole decade, you can't deny its relevance. There's a reason Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi, Paul George, Harden, etc are regularly #1 in +/- on their teams and why their teams are challenging for championships. They're great players who make a difference. DeRozan's numbers are empty calories, easily replaced by inexpensive average net-zero role players.

[Kurgan]

Unless you intend to showcase him for a trade, I see no benefit to having Defrozen in the starting lineup. He's gone in a year anyway so who gives a damn if his feeling get hurt. Switch him out with Derrick and see if that helps the ball movement/spacing in the starting lineup. Dumbar can feast on the opposing benches.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Plus-minus with a small sample size doesn't mean much-- but when the sample size is a whole season, or a whole decade, you can't deny its relevance. There's a reason Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi, Paul George, Harden, etc are regularly #1 in +/- on their teams and why their teams are challenging for championships. They're great players who make a difference. DeRozan's numbers are empty calories, easily replaced by inexpensive average net-zero role players.

and you brought up plus minus for a single game then attempted to extrapolate

[tmtcsc]

Maybe 40% of the grade is how fast Pop can waddle over to the opposing coach after an L to slurp him off, because that's been at an A+ level all year.

Perfectly said.

[Shakril]

Poeltl's total lack of boxing out is starting to really piss me off. I don't know if he was that bad last year - I'd like to think I would have noticed. But this year he's been like a middle school kid who grew 6 inches over the summer, but doesn't have any understanding of what to do with it.



Thats plain stupid what you say here. How can he box out when he has to help another defender cause Mills, Forbes etc. are not able to stay in front of their man. Unlike Lyles he actually tries to Defend and not just wait for the rebound. yes he could stay under their rim and just wait if someone misses, but thats not defending. I dont care you gets the rebound, i care about that everybody plays defense. At the moment its terrible.

[KimmyGib]

Eventually (inevitably I think) Murry and White will both be fixtures in the team's starting lineup. Why Pop is continuing to put that off with all the present issues is anyone's guess.

Moves like White into the sl, DDR in a 6th man role, Forbes off the bench, and Belinelli out of the rotation are not only worth exploring, but must be explored before this team gets too deep in the hole. Like others have said, it's a problem that Pop is being so rigid this early in the season when clearly changes are needed.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Thats plain stupid what you say here. How can he box out when he has to help another defender cause Mills, Forbes etc. are not able to stay in front of their man. Unlike Lyles he actually tries to Defend and not just wait for the rebound. yes he could stay under their rim and just wait if someone misses, but thats not defending. I dont care you gets the rebound, i care about that everybody plays defense. At the moment its terrible.


A Lakers fan who has (obviously) never actually played basketball. That explains a lot of the other shit you've said here.

Buh'bye.

[R. DeMurre]

and you brought up plus minus for a single game then attempted to extrapolate

Because it's part of a ten year trend that some people around here seem to think can easily be altered.

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

Plus-minus with a small sample size doesn't mean much-- but when the sample size is a whole season, or a whole decade, you can't deny its relevance. There's a reason Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi, Paul George, Harden, etc are regularly #1 in +/- on their teams and why their teams are challenging for championships. They're great players who make a difference. DeRozan's numbers are empty calories, easily replaced by inexpensive average net-zero role players. Paul George isn't any better than DeRozan.

[phxspurfan]

Wow, 34-10FTs? Didn’t watch the game but damn that’s a lot of extra points for them

[R. DeMurre]

Paul George isn't any better than DeRozan.

He's significantly better, and it's not even close. Better eFG%, better 3pt%, better defender, better rebounder, more steals, more blocks, higher VORP, better BPM...



https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Paul+George&player_id1_select=Paul+George&y1=2019&player_id1=georgpa01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=DeMar+DeRozan&player_id2_select=DeMar+DeRozan&y2=2019&player_id2=derozde01&idx=players

[r0drig0lac]

Paul George isn't any better than DeRozan.

haha, right

[Sugus]

Paul George isn't any better than DeRozan.

FTFY.