Spurs Inconvenient Truth: Bryn Forbes is a Failed Experiment as a Starter

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/bryn-forbes-san-antonio-spurs-failed-experiment/


tl;dr: :smchode:

[phxspurfan]

Nice article, didn't see that coming as the possible reason for the blowup. But since Pop thinks Forbes is a mini-Curry (and has said as much), I doubt he will make such a change. Plus, he hates what he sees from Walker, with all of his youthful mistakes.

[apalisoc_9]

wow you finally realized what 50% of the forum has been saying since 1935....Such Genuis..

[duncan2150]

I totally agree with this

Forbes deserve some credit for his work but he is not a starter caliber player and a 30 minutes player.

He needs no More than 15-20 minutes imo. His defense or lack of size is one reason of our struggle.

[timtonymanu]

Poor roster construction and it’s why he’s being forced to start is pretty much the big thing here. There’s just no viable option other than throwing Lonnie into the fold but we know Pop won’t do that either. Gonna be more of the same. Acting like the starting 5 isn’t a problem and playing the same rotations all year. There’s way too many problems on the roster that should have been addressed since the offseason. Forbes should have been a placeholder starter only for last year

[Raven]

Murray - White - Gay - Aldridge - Poeltl
should be the starting 5.

[Marco]

"But if Forbes is the problem like I think is the case, I’m worried that Pop and the rest of the coaches won’t figure it out in time to save the season." If Pop does not pay attention to those advanced stats and acts consequently, he needs to go. Smh

[horseshue]

Murray - White - Gay - Aldridge - Poeltl
should be the starting 5.

Who is gonna shoot a three?

[TDMVPDPOY]

if forbes isnt starting,

then u chuck him with the 2nd unit with wombat and belli?

[spurs10]

This is a very informative and impressive article. It confirms what I've felt for a while, not knowing the numbers. Forbes is targeted and easily scored on as the numbers suggest. It's more likely he'd thrive coming off the bench and putting points on the scoreboard without being a sitting duck for the opposing team's starting lineup.

First of all I think it's a great story of Forbes pulling himself up by hard work and determination, as you mentioned. That being said, it's hard to overlook these jaw dropping figures you have presented. I appreciate it because I didn't know these stats and it's pretty damn telling. Yep, I believe it's time for this 'experiment' to end. Thanks!
:flag:

[tbdog]

Great article. I knew Forbes wasn't and won't be starting material, but I didn't know it was this far off.

[Raven]

Who is gonna shoot a three?


everyone other than Poeltl can make them, Gay can make them fairly consistently, but it's not like having sub .200 shooters like belinelli is an alternative. We need to have these guys start being considered as true scorers, not guys who defer, or they will never grow.

[ragas]

Forbes shouldn't play at all except garbage time.

[Fireball]

if forbes isnt starting,

then u chuck him with the 2nd unit with wombat and belli?

no more belli at all ... and either Murray or White need to be on the floor for the whole 48 minutes of the game

[RC_Drunkford]

Great analysis OP. I think inserting Carroll for Forbes would fix a lot. Slide DeRozan to SG and play Carroll at SF. Start Gay or Lyles at PF. That would fix the defense and keep if not improve the spacing as Carroll is a good 3-point shooter. It would also make things easier for DeRozan and improve the defense by a mile. I'd also prefer to start White and let Murray run with the bench.

Most likely Pop will never do this though since he loves Forbes and he's now even starring in HEB commercials. To make matters worse he also loves Mills and will keep both of them in the rotation. Pop also thinks Carroll is a PF so he doesn't want to play him at SF.

Imagine being 5-8 and starting Carroll instead of Forbes and playing Walker instead of Belinelli would fix all the issues this team has, yet your coach thinks they just have to play better. Does Pop ever talk to the analytic guys? :lol

White/DeRozan/Carroll/Lyles/Aldridge

Murray/Mills/Walker/Gay/Poeltl

would be a very good rotation. You can swap Lyles/Gay if needed. Pairing Murray with Walker and Poeltl also makes a ton of sense, since Murray and Walker are the fastest players on the team and Poeltl runs the floor a lot better than Aldridge. Popovich might realize this when the team is 5-40 or he might never. What makes things really worse is that Forbes is 3rd in minutes averaged when he shouldn't even be in the rotation at all :lmao I can see the 4 years/60 million contract extension coming soon.

The smart thing would be to package Belinelli and Forbes together for a wing as Forbes has some trade value as a shooter and the combined salary of him and Belinelli is about 8 million.

[RC_Drunkford]

also this is proof that trading Danny Green was a major mistake. Trading Green forced Pop to start a midget with 0 defense at SG and is the main reason why the defense of this team has fallen off a cliff. Yes Danny didn't have great shooting numbers since LaMarcus got here and he can't dribble for shit, but he's still way better than Bryn Forbes

[timtonymanu]

also this is proof that trading Danny Green was a major mistake. Trading Green forced Pop to start a midget with 0 defense at SG and is the main reason why the defense of this team has fallen off a cliff. Yes Danny didn't have great shooting numbers since LaMarcus got here and he can't dribble for shit, but he's still way better than Bryn Forbes

What’s funny was all the sniffers saying trading him was the right move or that he was done as a player yet he looked just fine on the Raptors and now the Lakers. You know teams that run actual systems and not inefficient 90s ball/LMA-Demar iso ball.

[RC_Drunkford]

What’s funny was all the sniffers saying trading him was the right move or that he was done as a player yet he looked just fine on the Raptors and now the Lakers. You know teams that run actual systems and not inefficient 90s ball/LMA-Demar iso ball.

the main issue was that he was the player dumping the ball into the post for LaMarcus on the left side of the floor. LA is not a good passer, so Danny usually never got clean looks and got forced into driving as his defender recovered when Aldridge passed it back out. That was a recipee for disaster. He should've been in the corner on the weakside to get the corner 3 once the players pass the ball around the 3-point line, but you know Pop. He can't see anymore

I'm not surprised that he played well on the Raptors and now the Lakers.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

mookie2001 isn’t gonna like this ...

[jermaine]

I actually love Forbes. He's coming to play every single night.

[r0drig0lac]

wow you finally realized what 50% of the forum has been saying since 1935....Such Genuis..

[vander]

What’s funny was all the sniffers saying trading him was the right move or that he was done as a player yet he looked just fine on the Raptors and now the Lakers. You know teams that run actual systems and not inefficient 90s ball/LMA-Demar iso ball.

Forbes manages to shoot it pretty well in this terrible offense, imagine Forbes' 3PT% with open looks and good passes

[MultiTroll]

It's only been obvious for three years.

[JeffDuncan]

Excellent, timvp. Very eye opening. I'm sympathetic to Forbes, but the results just aren't there.

[MoSpur02]

Great article LJ. If the Spurs aren't going to make a trade then Pop needs to change the starting lineup. Removing Forbes from the starting lineup is a good start. Inserting White instead would be a great solution. However, then your bench would consist of Mills & Forbes who are both undersized shooting guards that are defensive liabilities. Only thing I can think of is remove both Forbes & Derozan bfrom the starting lineup & insert White & Carroll into the starting lineup. Pop needs to convince Derozan to be the next 6th man.

Carroll might help with the defensive woes and the lack of 3pt shooting. White would definitely help on defense and offense. Bringing Derozan off the bench would remove the bad fit of Aldridge and Derozan playing together. He could still average 20 points or so by being the primary focus on offense in that second group along with Gay, Jakob, Forbes, and Mills.

[NASpurs]

wow you finally realized what 50% of the forum has been saying since 1935....Such Genuis..

Don’t agree with the tone but I do agree with the message. Forbes is a feel good, make a wish story but the Edgelord Society has known that Pop has him in the Matt Bonner role... you know...more minutes and/or starting for a team when he shouldn’t be more than a 8th/9th man.

[cd021]

Going up the eye test, he does kill momentum with his transition 3pt jacking.

Its fine when it goes in but it's taking away opportunities to run offense and get players like Aldridge or Murray involved- which is important because of their inconsistent play.

[Dex]

Forbes starting last year was basically out of necessity due to Murray's injury. Even despite these on/off numbers, he surpassed expectations and performed admirably with the hand that was dealt to him.

That said, he is not a starter. Now that the team is healthy, there is no reason for him to be in the starting lineup. I know Pop is clutching to "spacing" like a cornerstone, but Bryn's limitations are still becoming too much to ignore (especially being played next to DeMar who is also a sub-par defender and being forced to play out of position).

I really wish I knew what the hell was going on with Carroll, because he seems like the easiest solution to the problem. Sure, he's a bit slow to play the three at his age, but he's still got more size than DeMar and can't be the defensive liability Forbes has proven to be. He also could provide some spacing and shooting while getting the Spurs back into a defensive-minded mentality instead of just letting Bryn try to beat opponents in a shootout.

[UZER]

Mm hmm...but people still think replacing Pop wouldn’t help anything.

[sasaint]

https://www.spurstalk.com/bryn-forbes-san-antonio-spurs-failed-experiment/


tl;dr: :smchode:

Excellent, eye-opening write-up. Thanks.

I wish you had included a paragraph about Mills' numbers/impact on the team when he is NOT paired with Forbes for a more direct comparison.

[JADG79]

We are undersized also with DeRozan at SF that is not his natural position.
They are not drafting natural SF (Forbes, White, Loonie, Weatherspoon and Keldon ). All of them are Guards.
Also we have Marco that sometimes play SF and Mills that are undersized too.

Forbes is a good bench player but I think SA traded the wrong guy. I'm not a fan of Bertans but I think Forbes was the player to trade.

[Russ]

Timvp has assembled an impressive case against Forbes but I'll push back a bit.

Most teams, good or bad, start a guard who is weak on D. It's kind of like having a starting pitcher who can't hit -- when comparing such pitchers, you don't talk about which pitcher hits worse (who really cares) you talk about who is the better pitcher. That's what they're paid to do and that's their value.

Forbes' value will be determined by his offensive performance -- especially on a team as desperate for three-point shooting as the Spurs. Take a look at Game 7 of the Denver series and then straight-face the claim that he hurts this team.

And if you want to evaluate weak defensive guards within a team defense (like the Spurs'), I would suggest you start with looking at how often that guard is out of position. Forbes holds up fairly well under that standard. For example, in both of the clips in the article, Forbes was between his man an the basket. Small praise but at least better than Lonnie Walker who often wanders around close to half court like he's playing a one-man zone against the Jumbotron. (And with Walker's offensive potential, he shouldn't be evaluated only on his defense either.) In short, staying in front of your man doesn't break down a team defense nearly as badly as completely losing your man does.

As far as attempting to extrapolate Forbes' defensive play by looking at team defense statistics when he's in, I think that's a reach. I'm not a fan of +/- analysis and such stats seem to be venturing dangerously into that territory. Believe your eyes -- Forbes seems to always hit a big three when the team most needs it, when the team is going bad. Those are statement shots that can affect the game much more than the same shot in a less critical situation.

Pop has taken a lot of heat here lately during this losing streak, some of it deserved. But when it comes to evaluating defense, I'll defer to him every day of the week. Pop absolutely will not play anyone who misses defensive assignments and yet he starts Forbes.

So is Forbes a defensive liability? Absolutely. Does he hurt the team as a starter? I think not.

[Mugen]

Wait til the FO pays/picks him over DWhite. :lol

[Mugen]

Timvp has assembled an impressive case against Forbes but I'll push back a bit.

Most teams, good or bad, start a guard who is weak on D. It's kind of like having a starting pitcher who can't hit -- when comparing such pitchers, you don't talk about which pitcher hits worse (who really cares) you talk about who is the better pitcher. That's what they're paid to do and that's their value.

Forbes' value will be determined by his offensive performance -- especially on a team as desperate for three-point shooting as the Spurs. Take a look at Game 7 of the Denver series and then straight-face the claim that he hurts this team.

And if you want to evaluate weak defensive guards within a team defense (like the Spurs'), I would suggest you start with looking at how often that guard is out of position. Forbes holds up fairly well under that standard. For example, in both of the clips in the article, Forbes was between his man an the basket. Small praise but at least better than Lonnie Walker who often wanders around close to half court like he's playing a one-man zone against the Jumbotron. (And with Walker's offensive potential, he shouldn't be evaluated only on his defense either.) In short, staying in front of your man doesn't break down a team defense nearly as badly as completely losing your man does.

As far as attempting to extrapolate Forbes' defensive play by looking at team defense statistics when he's in, I think that's a reach. I'm not a fan of +/- analysis and such stats seem to be venturing dangerously into that territory. Believe your eyes -- Forbes seems to always hit a big three when the team most needs it, when the team is going bad. Those are statement shots that can affect the game much more than the same shot in a less critical situation.

Pop has taken a lot of heat here lately during this losing streak, some of it deserved. But when it comes to evaluating defense, I'll defer to him every day of the week. Pop absolutely will not play anyone who misses defensive assignments and yet he starts Forbes.

So is Forbes a defensive liability? Absolutely. Does he hurt the team as a starter? I think not.

:lmao Oh man, that entire sentence. Wow.

Russ - my man, sounds like you've been in a coma for about 5 years. I've got some bad news for ya.

[K...]

Wait til the FO pays/picks him over DWhite. :lol

That's more about how Murray insta teased his way to into the starting pg role.

[Mugen]

That's more about how Murray insta teased his way to into the starting pg role.

Except Dejounte/White can play with each other. The old man has just brainwashed the retard half of the fanbase that they cant :lol

[Russ]

:lmao Oh man, that entire sentence. Wow.

Russ - my man, sounds like you've been in a coma for about 5 years. I've got some bad news for ya.

It's been kinda fun, man. (I love a cheap high.) :lol

[Mugen]

It's been kinda fun, man. (I love a cheap high.) :lol

:toast

[Mugen]

Can't wait for OP's next groundbreaking article: "Pop should play Dejounte and Derrick Together"

Queue my one positive quote about Forbes amidst my sea of calling Forbes a trash player for the last 2.5 years :lol

[NASpurs]

Can't wait for OP's next groundbreaking article: "Pop should play Dejounte and Derrick Together"

Queue my one positive quote about Forbes amidst my sea of calling Forbes a trash player for the last 2.5 years :lol

I feel next year there’s going to be a similar article for Trey Lyles. :lol

[NASpurs]

2021 - “DeMar DeRozan: Career Loser? The numbers say so.”

[r0drig0lac]

Some of us were already stating that dwarves should not be on the court under any circumstances, especially as starter, and no such alarming statistics were needed to see this.

[ZeusWillJudge]

I can see the 4 years/60 million contract extension coming soon.

One of my big fears for what's left of this team. Like a slow motion train wreck.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

2021 - “DeMar DeRozan: Career Loser? The numbers say so.”

:pop: cause changing the rotation chhanges everything :rolleyes we just gotta stick with it and coach them up. They played well last year

[itzsoweezee]

What’s funny was all the sniffers saying trading him was the right move or that he was done as a player yet he looked just fine on the Raptors and now the Lakers. You know teams that run actual systems and not inefficient 90s ball/LMA-Demar iso ball.

That was the party of the trade that infuriated me the most. Not only did they trade away kawhi for an empty stats scrub, they have away Danny and his very affordable and expiring contract too, rather that Gasol or Mills. An absolute fleecing and people on here were cheering it.

Something happened to this front office. It used to be smart, but now it's consistently outsmarted.

[timvp]

Don’t agree with the tone but I do agree with the message. Forbes is a feel good, make a wish story but the Edgelord Society has known that Pop has him in the Matt Bonner role... you know...more minutes and/or starting for a team when he shouldn’t be more than a 8th/9th man.

Few things:

1. Obviously, when a segment of the fanbase has dozens upon dozens of issues with the team, obviously anything negative will have been previously discussed. But that's fine. I troll around with my pals TD21 and Mugen but at the end of the day I only care about the Spurs winning. I look for the truth, not something to fit a narrative. I'm sure this article contradicts other things I've posted in the past, which is okay by me.

2. I know Forbes has/had a lot of distractors but I haven't seen many people put him at the head of the class regarding what is wrong with the Spurs. I see a lot more blame aimed at DeRozan, for example, than Forbes.

3. Bonner is a pretty bad example, if we're being honest. For all Bonner's faults, he undeniably had a positive impact -- at least on the offensive end of the court. He was a true give (offensive spacing) and take (defense, rebounding, clutch play). Forbes, on the other hand, appears to be only a one-way street.


Timvp has assembled an impressive case against Forbes but I'll push back a bit.Good post, thanks :tu


For example, in both of the clips in the article, Forbes was between his man an the basket.I probably wasn't clear enough in the article but this was why I picked those two highlights. Forbes did everything right in those two plays. He couldn't have done much better. But it didn't matter -- some no name shooting guard just want right through him like he wasn't there.

Pop has a history of scheming to hide weaknesses on defense but Forbes' weakness on defense is a different type of animal. When opponents are going right through him and over him, there's no indication that he needs help so the help defense isn't going to rotate over. For example, when Belinelli gets beat off the dribble, it's obvious that help is needed. But what do you do when players are going right through Forbes?


Can't wait for OP's next groundbreaking article: "Pop should play Dejounte and Derrick Together"

From the preseason: https://www.spurstalk.com/dejounte-murray-derrick-white-why-not-playing-together/


Queue my one positive quote about Forbes amidst my sea of calling Forbes a trash player for the last 2.5 years :lol

Be careful!

[8FOR!3]

White/DeRozan/Carroll/Gay/Aldridge

I think the spacing would improve but it would still be somewhat of an issue with this lineup. Can't really start Murray/White together bc then you don't have a true backup PG and also neither one of them are super interested in taking a lot of threes. With White's emergence last year though and Murray on a minutes restriction and coming back from a major injury, I don't really understand why he's been starting.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Also, I don't care what the question is, Patty Mills is not the freaking answer. EVERYTHING that is wrong with Forbes in the SL is wrong with Mills. Have you been watching the way they have been going at Patty the minute he comes into the game? That was a no-name starter that ran through Forbes. There are no-name bench players running through Patty. Replacing Forbes with Patty solves the Forbes problem, but only by replacing it with the Mills problem.

The first and easiest improvement they could make is to go sign Walt Lemon as a third PG. The problem of Murray's minute restriction isn't a problem anymore. Then re-evaluate the statement about Pop not being able to start DJ and White because of Murray's restriction.

[poopbox]

An undrafted undersized 2 guard is dragging down a professional basketball team? You don't say...

[DPG21920]

I am totally fine with taking Forbes out and agree; he’s been a massive disappoint but I also understand Pop asks him to punch above his weight every year (PG last year, starter at the NBA level).

But, regarding “blame”? Why would people not blame DeRozan more than Forbes? They traded kawhi for Derozan and he’s the highest paid player and is a terrible defender in his own right.

In terms of being able to fix things, Forbes being removed helps and he deserves some blame, but honestly I never feel great about blaming guys like Forbes who compete and are younger/cheap vs the stars.

Would be different if this was a Tim situation where he is dominating and just has no help; but that is not the case here. The blame lies on Pop, DeRozan and LMA first and foremost even if others like Forbes are a bigger issue than people realize.

Side note on your give and take comment: How is it possible SA built a team with no shooting AND terrible defense :lmao Normally you have give and take - you have players that are great shooters but you have to live with defensive issues. Or you have a great defensive team but their lack of shooting hurts. SA managed to build a roster full of bad 3PT shooting and terrible defenders???

[timvp]

Also, I don't care what the question is, Patty Mills is not the freaking answer. EVERYTHING that is wrong with Forbes in the SL is wrong with Mills. Have you been watching the way they have been going at Patty the minute he comes into the game? That was a no-name starter that ran through Forbes. There are no-name bench players running through Patty. Replacing Forbes with Patty solves the Forbes problem, but only by replacing it with the Mills problem.

Pretty fair. Although I contend that Mills can defend point guards better than Forbes can.

It's not a solution and not exactly optimal but it could be a Pop friendly maneuver that has a chance of actually happening -- and it'd make the Spurs better, IMO.


They traded kawhi for Derozan and he’s the highest paid player

Sunk cost fallacy.

[apalisoc_9]

Can't wait for OP's next groundbreaking article: "Pop should play Dejounte and Derrick Together"

Queue my one positive quote about Forbes amidst my sea of calling Forbes a trash player for the last 2.5 years :lol

Its fucking stupid. This dude comes back after a two year hiatus, regurigates an opinion that's popularized by who the sniffers calls eddgeloards but because it's him it all of a sudden a holy book.

I mean these people have only recently realized Derozan is not a good fit and Kobyz has been saying that since 1832 and that nigga is dumb as hell..

But he comes back..says the something and it all of a sudden..Derozan is a complete scrub

yeah your're right. Its almost like most of these people dont watch games and rely soley on spurstalk articles.

[acoelho1]

Not sure why we are hoping to save the season. It’s time to retool and build around our young guys. As far as Forbes, if you put Walker in the starting lineup and give him enough leash to make mistakes, we would be considerably better on both ends. Will it happen, probably not but if we keep losing even Pop won’t stay the course. So go Mavs!

[Jordan Jackson]

if forbes isnt starting,

then u chuck him with the 2nd unit with wombat and belli?

They shouldn't be playing either. They are a source of this teams defensive woes.

Forbes/Mills/Belinelli are targeted by opponents on every possession. Their minutes need to reduced or they need to be dropped from rotation.

[timvp]

Its fucking stupid. This dude comes back after a two year hiatus, regurigates an opinion that's popularized by who the sniffers calls eddgeloards but because it's him it all of a sudden a holy book.

I mean these people have only recently realized Derozan is not a good fit and Kobyz has been saying that since 1832 and that nigga is dumb as hell..

But he comes back..says the something and it all of a sudden..Derozan is a complete scrub

yeah your're right. Its almost like most of these people dont watch games and rely soley on spurstalk articles.

Trying too hard. You're not a real edgelord. Sorry.

[KobesAchilles]

Trying too hard. You're not a real edgelord. Sorry.
Idk. Fucking ones aunt sounds edgy to me :lol

[Mugen]

Its fucking stupid. This dude comes back after a two year hiatus, regurigates an opinion that's popularized by who the sniffers calls eddgeloards but because it's him it all of a sudden a holy book.

I mean these people have only recently realized Derozan is not a good fit and Kobyz has been saying that since 1832 and that nigga is dumb as hell..

But he comes back..says the something and it all of a sudden..Derozan is a complete scrub

yeah your're right. Its almost like most of these people dont watch games and rely soley on spurstalk articles.

To be clear, I enjoy SniffVP's articles and having to rewatch and analyze Spurs games with this squad and writing articles on it is a task I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

The "edgelords" have been right more times than they've been wrong during these last 5 years and it's hard to admit that your favorite HOF coach is well past his prime so I get it.

The only issue I have is when the Sniffers say edgelords would be complaining about a lottery team with the young guys getting a lot of playing time which is retarded since a lot of people having been calling for a tank

Tim's my guy and is probably the best Spurs analyst out there tbh. At least he's still answering for the old man's bullshit when other Sniffin' losers are nowhere to be found nowadays :lol

[apalisoc_9]

To be clear, I enjoy SniffVP's articles and having to rewatch and analyze Spurs games with this squad and writing articles on it is a task I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

The "edgelords" have been right more times than they've been wrong during these last 5 years and it's hard to admit that your favorite HOF coach is well past his prime so I get it.

The only issue I have is when the Sniffers say edgelords would be complaining about a lottery team with the young guys getting a lot of playing time which is retarded since a lot of people having been calling for a tank

Tim's my guy and is probably the best Spurs analyst out there tbh. At least he's still answering for the old man's bullshit when other Sniffin' losers are nowhere to be found nowadays :lol

I doubt this site survives without PATFO suckers.

[R. DeMurre]

Forbes is a reasonably paid bench guy (making only about half the lower MLE) being asked to play starter minutes in a line up with DeRozan, who doesn't spread the floor and doesn't play D... that's the big issue. A guy like Fournier can be hidden in a line up that winds up being pretty good defensively, but the Spurs just have too many undersized non-defenders piled up. The Spurs went from a Kawhi/Green Wing Stop duo to a Forbes/DeRozan Hole in the Middle scenario. But at least Forbes isn't paid 28 mil/year.

[KDKSpurs24]

One of the main problems with this team for the last few years is having BOTH Forbes and Mills on the same roster. In my opinion it eliminates roster flexibility. Rotations would be much better if one of them were gone. Also not playing Marco along with that would really help.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Pretty fair. Although I contend that Mills can defend point guards better than Forbes can.

It's not a solution and not exactly optimal but it could be a Pop friendly maneuver that has a chance of actually happening -- and it'd make the Spurs better, IMO.


Awww, I hate it when you're all reasonable-like. Okay, so maybe it's a marginal improvement. And, yeah, it's something that Pop might actually consider. That's a big deal, since a lot of these things have zero chance in the real world.

So a slight improvement is probably all it would have taken to pull out a W in two of these games. The team would be 7-6 instead of 5-8. If the goal is to squeak into the playoffs, I guess that's a plan. I would like it a lot better if I thought it was a part of a larger plan.


BTW - I was serious about signing Lemon as a third PG, and ditching one of the deadwood players at the end of the bench. He's good enough to handle enough PG minutes to allow Murray and White to play together. It would also be a marginal improvement, but if we're in "every little bit helps" mode, it would be worthwhile.

[MoSpur02]

Timvp, who would you start and who would be your second unit of you're head coach of the Spurs? I'm actually curious.

If the Spurs aren't going to trade Derozan or Aldridge, then Derozan needs to come of the bench along with Forbes IMO.

[Kurgan]

Timvp, who would you start and who would be your second unit of you're head coach of the Spurs? I'm actually curious.

If the Spurs aren't going to trade Derozan or Aldridge, then Derozan needs to come of the bench along with Forbes IMO.

This is what a lot of us have been saying for quite some time. Without a three point shot or any defensive awareness, Derozan doesn't have the skills required to start in the modern NBA. He's a Lou Williams tier player that had delusions of grandeur about being a star. If he whines about being relegated to the bench, fuck him. He's gone at the end of the year anyway.

[DPG21920]

Pretty fair. Although I contend that Mills can defend point guards better than Forbes can.

It's not a solution and not exactly optimal but it could be a Pop friendly maneuver that has a chance of actually happening -- and it'd make the Spurs better, IMO.



Sunk cost fallacy.

Sure, I know it’s a sunk cost, but it illustrates the over-arching point. On any team, regardless of trade, you normally expect your “most talented” and often highest paid player to be a leader. They deserve the most blame, unless they don’t like when Timmy was balling but had bad role players.

[FkLA]

Jesus christ what a damning article. Someone send that shit to Pop.

It's mostly on Pop for overusing him though. Especially when there's a much better option, that was ready to have a breakout year, on the bench playing 23 mpg. You'd also have to imagine that atleast defensively, Forbes would have a little more success going up against second units. But then he'd be paired with Wombat so the best outcome would probably be if he just gets thrown into a DeRozan trade, tbh.

[DPG21920]

Not to derail the thread - but honest question timvp: How much stock do you put in leadership? I know talent and ability trumps all, but how many issues on this team are caused by lack of leadership and accountability by the best players (LMA and DeRozan)?

[Kurgan]

Jesus christ what a damning article. Someone send that shit to Pop.

It's mostly on Pop for overusing him though. Especially when there's a much better option, that was ready to have a breakout year, on the bench playing 23 mpg. You'd also have to imagine that atleast defensively, Forbes would have a little more success going up against second units. But then he'd be paired with Wombat so the best outcome would probably be if he just gets thrown into a DeRozan trade, tbh.

This isn't a bad idea. He's about to be way overpaid this summer anyway and Spurs always have a knack for finding these one dimensional Roger Mason/Gary Neal clones. That's probably why they drafted Weatherspoon this year, to be Forbes replacement when he inevitably asks for too much of a raise.

[timvp]

Timvp, who would you start and who would be your second unit of you're head coach of the Spurs? I'm actually curious.

Murray, White, DeRozan, Gay and Aldridge. Gay is the hardest call of the bunch but, IMO, if you have two isolation scorers in DeRozan and Aldridge, you might as well have a third in Gay instead of trying to space the court as has been done traditionally.

[UZER]

I’ve said before in other threads...

If you still don’t think Pop has gone senile, consider this - He came to the conclusion that having one short Patty Mills on the team wasn’t enough, so he created another carbon copy and is starting Bryn and playing him major minutes. I mean, you can’t make this stuff up. :lol

[r0drig0lac]

They shouldn't be playing either. They are a source of this teams defensive woes.

Forbes/Mills/Belinelli are targeted by opponents on every possession. Their minutes need to reduced or they need to be dropped from rotation.

[timvp]

I’ve said before in other threads...

If you still don’t think Pop has gone senile, consider this - He came to the conclusion that having one short Patty Mills on the team wasn’t enough, so he created another carbon copy and is starting Bryn and playing him major minutes. I mean, you can’t make this stuff up. :lol

Finding a real NBA player out of the scrap heap of undrafted free agents is no small feat. That in and of itself is worthy of praise.

If you want to say Forbes is being used incorrectly, that's fair. It's also fair to say he should be traded in an effort to balance out the roster. But to criticize the Spurs for finding a quality UFA? Misguided.

[8FOR!3]

Murray, White, DeRozan, Gay and Aldridge. Gay is the hardest call of the bunch but, IMO, if you have two isolation scorers in DeRozan and Aldridge, you might as well have a third in Gay instead of trying to space the court as has been done traditionally.

How would you run the bench unit? Would you just start Murray/White together but essentially have one of them on the court at all times or would you do something different for backup PG?

[timvp]

How would you run the bench unit? Would you just start Murray/White together but essentially have one of them on the court at all times or would you do something different for backup PG?

It'd be admittedly tough while Murray is on his minutes restriction ... but still doable.

Play Murray the first 6 minutes of every quarter (as the doctors have prescribed).

Play White the first 8 minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters and the last 8 minutes of the 2nd and 4th.

Play Mills behind Murray and Forbes behind White in the first half and then switch at halftime.

Results would be...

-Murray plays 24 minutes during his minutes restriction.
-White plays 32 minutes.
-Mills and Forbes play 20 minutes each.
-Mills would only need to run point guard for the final four minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters.

It'd obviously become easier when there are no minutes restrictions to account for but I'll accept Mills playing 8 minutes a game at PG if the result is Murray and White playing 18 minutes together.

[Arcadian]

:lol People agreeing with the OP but still giving him a hard time for being "too late"...

When your simple mind only has two categories (either you're a "sniffer" or not), you'll find a way to make everything fit into those boxes.

[Russ]

Not to derail the thread - but honest question timvp: How much stock do you put in leadership? I know talent and ability trumps all, but how many issues on this team are caused by lack of leadership and accountability by the best players (LMA and DeRozan)?

Bingo. When your two best players are DeRozan and Aldridge leadership is always going to be the elephant in the room.

That's why Murray could be so important going forward (and, yes, even Forbes because he is clutch).

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Obviously the coaching staff looks at the +/- and sees the same stats LJ is sharing. So what does that say about them? Are they suddenly expecting Forbes to turn a corner? The most eye-opening stat is the defensive points allowed. That should be an obvious red flag. Is it just that there's no one to fill that role? Are the Spurs stuck because everyone else to pair with Murray or White sucks even worse than Forbes?

Here's a thought Pop, play your two best guards, White and Murray, together, and limit Forbes minutes off the bench. Not too hard.

[spurs10]

Murray, White, DeRozan, Gay and Aldridge. Gay is the hardest call of the bunch but, IMO, if you have two isolation scorers in DeRozan and Aldridge, you might as well have a third in Gay instead of trying to space the court as has been done traditionally. This makes sense to me and I like the idea of Rudy starting and closing because he wants to win and can score when you need it. Good thread...those stats on Forbes...ouch!

[DPG21920]

Finding a real NBA player out of the scrap heap of undrafted free agents is no small feat. That in and of itself is worthy of praise.

If you want to say Forbes is being used incorrectly, that's fair. It's also fair to say he should be traded in an effort to balance out the roster. But to criticize the Spurs for finding a quality UFA? Misguided.

Not only that, but Forbes is the only one since last season consistently being put in a spot to fail and asked to punch above his weight. He has limitations, limitations coaches should understand, yet it’s them who made him a PG for a while. Them who start him and ask him to defend the players he does.

He consistently fights hard, brings effort and despite his flaws is an nba caliber player. I don’t fault guys like that. I fault those who: A) have talent and underperform B) dont bring effort consistently and C) never take steps forward in their games.

Bryn is none of that.

[DPG21920]

Obviously the coaching staff looks at the +/- and sees the same stats LJ is sharing. So what does that say about them? Are they suddenly expecting Forbes to turn a corner? The most eye-opening stat is the defensive points allowed. That should be an obvious red flag. Is it just that there's no one to fill that role? Are the Spurs stuck because everyone else to pair with Murray or White sucks even worse than Forbes?

Here's a thought Pop, play your two best guards, White and Murray, together, and limit Forbes minutes off the bench. Not too hard.

That is what is scary. It would be one thing if you had guys do the things you have asked of them before and they are loafing it and Pop sees that. But this team? Not only are the rotations bad, but they just have too many players who have never done what SA is asking of them and Pop should know that.

He knows Mills is a bad defender. He knows Beli is atrocious on defense. He knows Forbes can’t hang with PG/SG that are starters in the NBA. Yet? That is the ask and request? Just “figure it out”?

[MoSpur02]

Murray, White, DeRozan, Gay and Aldridge. Gay is the hardest call of the bunch but, IMO, if you have two isolation scorers in DeRozan and Aldridge, you might as well have a third in Gay instead of trying to space the court as has been done traditionally.

Interesting. I could see Gay starting along side Aldridge, White, Murray, but not sure about him starting along side Derozan. I just see as Derozan as a bad fit next to Aldridge or Aldridge a bad fit next to Derozan. I think Carroll needs more time at the 3/4, White and Murray need to play more together, Forbes needs to come off the bench, and no Belinelli

[ginobilized]

Great insight, timvp!

I can see the Spurs moving cautiously with Lonnie since he doesn't seem quite ready to seize this opportunity. There will be changes and those changes affect the team and family. These are not things to do without plenty of data. 13 games is starting to give them the data.
Moving Lonnie up too soon could backfire for the present and long-term. If they are on a 20 game losing streak and trotting out the same lineup, then, the blame is on them. Hopefully some changes come soon.
Carroll for Forbes in the starting 5 makes the most sense to me, btw. He must've done something very wrong to be getting the treatment he's getting.

[SAGirl]

Good article. I have mentioned it b4. Pop just simply doesn’t want to accept it. I wouldn’t call him starting an experiment bc he’s been the starter for 2 seasons and Pop hasn’t felt like he needs to be replaced or minutes adjusted... basic statements from Pop are we are what we are... and we are defensively challenged and we knew the team we had. They consider him an integral part of this team. Lonnie getting minutes is an experiment, Bryn is not.

not his fault Pop overplays him and places him in position to get exposed. Beyond that his fit on defense with a second wing that can’t cover for him in demar makes it worse.

It was elightening to read that his impact on offense isn’t as positive as expected either. I have been on a “bench Forbes path” since he started getting overplayed and it only has gotten worse since then.

[DaBears]

Too Me Bryn Forbes and Patty Mills have been the 2 best players on this roster so far, and that is not a compliment. Give Credit to both of them but this team is going nowhere fast if it stays the course.

[RC_Drunkford]

the fun fact is that people say Pop is starting Forbes so him and Mills don't have to play off the bench together, but somehow he still finds ways to play them both together for stretches

[siraulo23]

Great stuff kinda expected he hurts the Spurs on the defense

Didnt think the numbers on offense also against Forbes

[DC23]

Too Me Bryn Forbes and Patty Mills have been the 2 best players on this roster so far, and that is not a compliment. Give Credit to both of them but this team is going nowhere fast if it stays the course.
Yes you are right..offensively speaking;)

[TD 21]

wow you finally realized what 50% of the forum has been saying since 1935....Such Genuis..



Side note on your give and take comment: How is it possible SA built a team with no shooting AND terrible defense :lmao
Normally you have give and take - you have players that are great shooters but you have to live with defensive issues. Or you have a great defensive team but their lack of shooting hurts. SA managed to build a roster full of bad 3PT shooting and terrible defenders???

:lmao :tu



Jesus christ what a damning article. Someone send that shit to Pop.

It's mostly on Pop for overusing him though. Especially when there's a much better option, that was ready to have a breakout year, on the bench playing 23 mpg. You'd also have to imagine that atleast defensively, Forbes would have a little more success going up against second units. But then he'd be paired with Wombat so the best outcome would probably be if he just gets thrown into a DeRozan trade, tbh.

I mentioned this in the Magic interested in DeRozan thread. Forbes is probably in line for something like 3-4 years/$7-8M a season. Given his poor fit on the roster, they have no business giving him that (unless they're willing to trade Mills, which we all know isn't happening).

If they're not going to get sufficient 3-point shooting out of their best players, then they at least need to have it out more sizable ones.

[SAGirl]

I actually love Forbes. He's coming to play every single night.
And they will pay him a lot for that but it’s not about heart or effort with him.

He can lead the tankathon

[Keepin' it real]

Ideally, Forbes should be a human victory cigar. Nice story.

But a starter??? That's a shameful job by patfo. Shameful.

Forbes as a starter is a big reason why I didn't renew my league pass, and why I turned down free tickets to a Spurs game. He's woefully inadequate and painfully boring to watch.

[tmtcsc]

Numbers don't lie & some of the Spurs' struggles could be attributed to Forbes' defensive liabilities BUT he's giving effort when he's on the court. At least he has a fucking pulse and knows when his team is losing, needs a timeout or a big shot. At least you can tell he cared enough about his craft to work on getting in better shape and being productive on the court. Yes, its come to this with the current Spurs roster. He's earned his spot in the starting rotation. Maybe the slugs who start with him need to be benched.

I agree with those who say Forbes shouldn't be starting but that's more of a damning statement against the other players on the team. WTF is going on when you are outplayed by an undrafted free agent? As a player, where is your pride? At best, Forbes should be playing a Mills type of role from 2013-2014. Instant offense off the bench and padding leads or cutting an opponents lead with some quick 3's. That's how upside down this roster and the last 2 years have been.

[JuneJive]

Murray is just getting started.

We should see him and White sharing the floor pretty soon.

Judgment should be witheld, at least until some time passes.

[GAustex]

Pretty much the whole team needs to play better except for Forbes and Patty who are playing at what seems to be their best. Maybe Lyles too but it seems he could do more.

Too bad about Forbes and the Op. He is one of the more like able Spurs.

[UZER]

Finding a real NBA player out of the scrap heap of undrafted free agents is no small feat. That in and of itself is worthy of praise.

If you want to say Forbes is being used incorrectly, that's fair. It's also fair to say he should be traded in an effort to balance out the roster. But to criticize the Spurs for finding a quality UFA? Misguided.

In Bryn’s case, they go hand in hand. He made the roster because Pop fell in love with Rudy Jr and won’t stop playing him.

What’s misguided is calling him a quality UFA. The dude should be checking in only as a heat check guy. If he ain’t hitting, he should be yanked. That’s not quality. That’s circumstantial.

[SAGirl]

Also, I don't care what the question is, Patty Mills is not the freaking answer. EVERYTHING that is wrong with Forbes in the SL is wrong with Mills. Have you been watching the way they have been going at Patty the minute he comes into the game? That was a no-name starter that ran through Forbes. There are no-name bench players running through Patty. Replacing Forbes with Patty solves the Forbes problem, but only by replacing it with the Mills problem.

The first and easiest improvement they could make is to go sign Walt Lemon as a third PG. The problem of Murray's minute restriction isn't a problem anymore. Then re-evaluate the statement about Pop not being able to start DJ and White because of Murray's restriction.
Have to agree I wouldn’t start Paddy either. I actually prefer to test any of the other youngins they have, Carroll or a gleague player like Danny once was. There’s no excuse for this. There’s no amount of blaming Kawhi after 2 years or Morris that can make one believe the FO can’t do anything.

[SAGirl]

I am totally fine with taking Forbes out and agree; he’s been a massive disappoint but I also understand Pop asks him to punch above his weight every year (PG last year, starter at the NBA level).

But, regarding “blame”? Why would people not blame DeRozan more than Forbes? They traded kawhi for Derozan and he’s the highest paid player and is a terrible defender in his own right.

In terms of being able to fix things, Forbes being removed helps and he deserves some blame, but honestly I never feel great about blaming guys like Forbes who compete and are younger/cheap vs the stars.

Would be different if this was a Tim situation where he is dominating and just has no help; but that is not the case here. The blame lies on Pop, DeRozan and LMA first and foremost even if others like Forbes are a bigger issue than people realize.

Side note on your give and take comment: How is it possible SA built a team with no shooting AND terrible defense :lmao Normally you have give and take - you have players that are great shooters but you have to live with defensive issues. Or you have a great defensive team but their lack of shooting hurts. SA managed to build a roster full of bad 3PT shooting and terrible defenders???
Wait until Forbes gets his 50 mills type deal and you will start to feel less fine with this IMO.

[timvp]

In Bryn’s case, they go hand in hand. He made the roster because Pop fell in love with Rudy Jr and won’t stop playing him. Who is Rudy Jr?


What’s misguided is calling him a quality UFA. The dude should be checking in only as a heat check guy. If he ain’t hitting, he should be yanked.What you described is quality for an UFA.

[Down Under]

Forbes will be swapped for White eventually, it's inevitable. So it comes to spacing. I've been saying for ages, if the backcourt is Murray/White, LMA will have to be a stretch 5 & shoot 3's & one of Gay or Carroll starts at the 4. The spacing needs to come from the bigs. Bench defense isn't that important IMO.

[Big P]

Good read..thanks....and the FO will still sign him to a 4 year $70 mil. deal.

[TimDunkem]

wow you finally realized what 50% of the forum has been saying since 1935....Such Genuis..

Right. You could see who he was and who he could be in a best case scenario years ago.

Just a decent shooter at the end of the bench. Nothing more.

[UZER]

Who is Rudy Jr?

What you described is quality for an UFA.

Rudy! Rudy! Rudy!

[raybies]

:wow

i was fooled... great article

[spurraider21]

op with the edgelord goods :tu

[objective]

My opinion on Forbes is pretty much consistent: he shouldn't be playing regularly (same with Marco and Mills).

PG-SG-SF Lineup should be one of two:

Murray-White-DeRozan starters, with bench with Walker in the backcourt and Carroll/Keldon at SF, and spot minutes by the terrible trio of Mills-Forbes-Marco

OR

Murray-Walker-DeRozan, with White as the third guard in a 3-guard rotation with either Carroll or a hustling Keldon getting 12-18 minutes

First, about Forbes. I don't have the strong dislike for him that I do for Marco or Mills because Forbes always tries and puts forth effort and stays in shape. It doesn't help much, but he gets credit from me for trying hard unlike Marco and for always being in top shape and not overpaid like Mills. But his apparent lock on minutes is just a fluke from the beginning of last year when Murray and White were hurt and he just kind of became the starter (as DDR was still at SG with Cunningham at SF). He is a spot minute guy who can be replaced by Weatherspoon (or he could have replaced Mills had the Spurs done the smart thing and let Mills walk). He's a Yogi Ferrell or a Roger Mason or a Gary Neal. At the high end, he's a Seth Curry who gets an $8 million a year deal.

Walker should be heavily featured in a 3-guard rotation with Murray and White. They should all combine for about 85 minutes a game. And DeRozan pulling the rest as ballhandler with Carroll/Keldon hustle along at SF.

Walker needs time to settle down. And that will only come with time, and lots of it. And I think being with the starters will be the best way. Starting probably tampers down his wild shot selection with all the other guys needing to eat, but also puts him with better, more experienced defenders who can help direct him on the court. He can get comfortable when he just has to concentrate on running, shooting open shots, and defending. And defending while not getting inserted cold to guard the best SF in the entire freaking league. Walker's shooting form is perfectly suitable, he can space the floor.

A Murray-White-Walker trio can be staggered fine, especially if DDR is used as a featured ballhandler in the few minutes without either Murray or White.

Some might argue that Forbes/Marco/Mills are needed to space the floor. I would just point to their poor record against an easy schedule. Grinding on defense by eliminating the trash is the best opportunity to win. And while DeRozan is not good, I'd take him on defense over Marco and Forbes for sure, though Mills is probably more useful as a change of pace defender.

Mills might be deserving of a small role on defense as a fullcourt guy, but he shouldn't get minutes to match his money. If his averages less than 1 minute per million, Spurs will be in good shape.

I have Keldon as a possible spot minutes guy because of how hard he plays. Every year around the league there will be mid-sized wings who are undrafted or 2nd rounders or late firsts who are able to play in small doses as hustle guys. They haven't really been scouted and just by sticking to hustling they can have decent games in small doses as rookies. Sterling Brown, Dillon Brooks etc etc. Sometimes the rookie year is their best year, sometimes they transform into decent players. Keldon can do that. Throws his body around, gets into it, all hustle. That's enough as a rookie sometimes.

[ZeusWillJudge]

How would you run the bench unit? Would you just start Murray/White together but essentially have one of them on the court at all times or would you do something different for backup PG?


I'm telling you - Walt Lemon is capable of giving them enough minutes at the point to allow White and Murray to play together. And he can be had on a min contract. He played a half dozen games for Chicago last year, and averaged 14 points, 5 AST, and 4.5 RB. In his G-League career he's averaged 18.6 points, 5.8 AST, and 4 boards.

Chicago was long on PG's and drafted Coby White, so Lemon was the odd man out. Even during the good years, the Spurs have had a number of 3rd point guards who weren't any better than Lemon. He's a good distributor that could keep things moving well enough to give White/DJ minutes together, and not wear out Murray right now.

[Arcadian]

It's not even particularly inconvenient, tbh. We have plenty of people who can take his minutes. It would actually be pretty convenient to bench him.

[MultiTroll]

Related.
Statistics bear out that the Lakers will probably remain in Los Angeles.

[Russ]

Related.
Statistics bear out that the Lakers will probably remain in Los Angeles.

Where there are no lakes . . .

[playblair]

this thread aged well..............stop bashing forbes

[timvp]

This is all we need to know about how opposing teams rate Forbes' defense. Doncic has the ball against Mills but that's not good enough. Carlisle's play is to literally get Forbes switched off onto Doncic and get out of the way. That's it :(

w376n

[Mugen]

And yet, your lord and savior will have him in the starting lineup the entire season. :lmao

[UZER]

This is all we need to know about how opposing teams rate Forbes' defense. Doncic has the ball against Mills but that's not good enough. Carlisle's play is to literally get Forbes switched off onto Doncic and get out of the way. That's it :(

w376n

What a quality UFA Forbes is.

[ZeusWillJudge]

This is all we need to know about how opposing teams rate Forbes' defense. Doncic has the ball against Mills but that's not good enough. Carlisle's play is to literally get Forbes switched off onto Doncic and get out of the way. That's it :(




LOL. Look at Carlisle on the sideline screaming and waving Curry over to force that switch. That's the most obvious I've ever seen.

[Mugen]

A real Sophie's Choice there for Luka at the end.

Everybody knowing how fucking garbage a Mills/Forbes defensive backcourt is.

Everybody except that senile fuck :lol

"But the Golden Years, leave him alone" :cry

[timvp]

And yet, your lord and savior will have him in the starting lineup the entire season. :lmao

Pretty true :lol. I admitted as much in the article.


LOL. Look at Carlisle on the sideline screaming and waving Curry over to force that switch. That's the most obvious I've ever seen.

Imagine what opposing scouting reports must say if Forbes' defense <<<<<<<<<<< Mills' defense.

[ElNono]

I don't see Carroll in that video... you know, the guy that was making stops and hittin 3s?

[Mugen]

I don't see Carroll in that video... you know, the guy that was making stops and hittin 3s?

Yeah, what was that all about? Surely, there must have been a good reason why he's been glued to the bench next to Metoo the entire season?

What do we know? We're not HOF coaches tbh.

[timvp]

I don't see Carroll in that video... you know, the guy that was making stops and hittin 3s?

To be fair, Rudy Gay (Carroll's replacement) had just hit a three to cut it to a two-point game.

[ElNono]

To be fair, Rudy Gay (Carroll's replacement) had just hit a three to cut it to a two-point game.

That's great, but the point stands. Can't even claim he was tired, dude has been riding the bench forever

[R. DeMurre]

Carlisle switching the poor defense of a player 7" shorter than Doncic with a worse defender 5" shorter than Doncic were options #1 & #2. Option #3 is DeRozan. That's a lot of options for an opposing coach in the closing minutes of a tight game.

[timvp]

Carlisle switching the poor defense of a player 7" shorter than Doncic with a worse defender 5" shorter than Doncic were options #1 & #2. Option #3 is DeRozan. That's a lot of options for an opposing coach in the closing minutes of a tight game.

It's pretty telling that of Mills, DeRozan and Forbes to go against, Carlisle dramatically chose Forbes without a second thought. He couldn't wave over the screen fast enough.

[DPG21920]

It's pretty telling that of Mills, DeRozan and Forbes to go against, Carlisle dramatically chose Forbes without a second thought. He couldn't wave over the screen fast enough.

It’s more telling that PATFO had an entire year to see how DeRozan plays and fits with the roster they had and thought to themselves: “Yeah, I am good with this”.

[spurs10]

It's pretty telling that of Mills, DeRozan and Forbes to go against, Carlisle dramatically chose Forbes without a second thought. He couldn't wave over the screen fast enough. It looks like the losses aren't anomalies, but what should be expected. I am wonder if any of the coaches, like Becky or Tim, are suggesting the obvious 'Maybe letting every team target Forbes is not a great plan.' The rope-a-dope strategy of letting every team in the NBA beat the crap out of us and go up by double digits every game is not working out well.

[ZeusWillJudge]

It's pretty telling that of Mills, DeRozan and Forbes to go against, Carlisle dramatically chose Forbes without a second thought. He couldn't wave over the screen fast enough.


There's no doubt, going after Forbes was part of the game plan. You can see that Carlisle is frustrated (he's out on the court), because Curry hasn't recognized what he was told to do.

But on the other hand, look at that video and watch Patty's reaction and tell me what you see. It really is a team effort.

[spurraider21]

This is all we need to know about how opposing teams rate Forbes' defense. Doncic has the ball against Mills but that's not good enough. Carlisle's play is to literally get Forbes switched off onto Doncic and get out of the way. That's it :(

w376n
:lmao patty defending luka to begin with is ridiculous. you think patty would have contested luka's stepback anyway? who cares that dallas thought attacking forbes was better than mills. the fact that mills was the preferred defender to begin with just shows the absurdity of what pop is doing. the analysis doesnt need to go any farther than that

[DPG21920]

Forbes is going to get Mills type money isn’t he.

[Mugen]

:lmao patty defending luka to begin with is ridiculous. you think patty would have contested luka's stepback anyway? who cares that dallas thought attacking forbes was better than mills. the fact that mills was the preferred defender to begin with just shows the absurdity of what pop is doing. the analysis doesnt need to go any farther than that

Yeah but DJ/White were bad, Pop had no choice but to go back to that shit well for the 200th time in the last 2 years. Hindsight is 20/20 Edgelord :cry

[Mugen]

Forbes is going to get Mills type money isn’t he.

Oh you know it. If you think they're not going to pick Mills/Forbes over White/Lonnie then I've got some bad news for ya, Deeps.

[timvp]

Forbes is going to get Mills type money isn’t he.

I'm already dreading it, tbh.


Yeah but DJ/White were bad, Pop had no choice but to go back to that shit well for the 200th time in the last 2 years. Hindsight is 20/20 Edgelord :cry

Man, that Belinelli revelation has you riled up :lol

[TimDunkem]

I knew when they started hyping this 15th man in practice years ago that he would be another coaches pet.

I knew when I heard the sob story about his kids and getting his shot in SL and excelling that this charity case would end up playing just too many minutes with this team. Look where we are now

And, now, seeing how much of a green light and pass on defense he gets - the kind that only other coach's pets like Bonner, Finley, Mills, and Belinelli got - I just know that he's getting that big loyalty contract too. Fucking book it.

[cjw]

Who is gonna shoot a three?

The other team’s stretch four and five will shoot plenty of threes against that lineup

[J_Paco]

I knew when they started hyping this 15th man in practice years ago that he would be another coaches pet.

I knew when I heard the sob story about his kids and getting his shot in SL and excelling that this charity case would end up playing just too many minutes with this team. Look where we are now

And, now, seeing how much of a green light and pass on defense he gets - the kind that only other coach's pets like Bonner, Finley, Mills, and Belinelli got - I just know that he's getting that big loyalty contract too. Fucking book it.

Is Forbes restricted or unrestricted?

That will dictate how aggressively they'll go out to re-sign him. Either way, the pessimists should calm the fuck down about him getting "paid" or choosing Mills/Forbes over White/Walker.

The team has had plenty of projects that they built up - do Stephen Jackson or Gary Neal ring a bell (?) - only to let them walk when the asking price was too high.

And Patty was a special case, since he was "low balled" in 2014 because of his shoulder surgery (that he played through and was worse than originally suspected) & the team was over cap so it couldn't have spent money otherwise on anyone else.

Does it suck to give a back up PG $12.5 million annually, yes, but they were probably under the false pretense that the cap would continue to rise (more steadily). Thus, making his contract hurt a lot less.

Back to the subject of the thread, I'm hoping the old guy realizes soon that Forbes is nowhere near starter material and sends him to the bench (to play alongside White). The kid has a ton of heart and moxy, but he isn't cut out to be a starter in any NBA team's rotation let alone two years in a row.

Should be the 11th, 12th man or play a similar role to Seth Curry (not presently speaking while Carlisle starts him). Is a horrendous defender on a nightly basis and cannot even spread the floor for DeMar and LaMarcus to operate. Of course, knowing Pop and his nonsense he'll ride Forbes through the entire season until the Spurs are unceremoniously eliminated from playoff contention.

[R. DeMurre]

It's pretty telling that of Mills, DeRozan and Forbes to go against, Carlisle dramatically chose Forbes without a second thought. He couldn't wave over the screen fast enough.


There's no doubt, going after Forbes was part of the game plan. You can see that Carlisle is frustrated (he's out on the court), because Curry hasn't recognized what he was told to do.

But on the other hand, look at that video and watch Patty's reaction and tell me what you see. It really is a team effort.


A few games ago, Walker was benched for not fighting hard enough on switches and early pick ups while defending Kawhi, and that's the disconnect for me. Pop watches Patty, Forbes, Beli, and Demar blow defensive opportunities every game without punishment, but White & Walker get the hook almost immediately for mistakes.

[duncan2k5]

i said this EXACT thing two years ago and ppl shit on me for saying it....

[duncan2k5]

A few games ago, Walker was benched for not fighting hard enough on switches and early pick ups while defending Kawhi, and that's the disconnect for me. Pop watches Patty, Forbes, Beli, and Demar blow defensive opportunities every game without punishment, but White & Walker get the hook almost immediately for mistakes.

exactly...and not only do they immediately get the hook, but in lonnie's case, he gets taken out for games on end...so what do u think happens next time? his game gets pussified and he thinks too much instead of doing what he has naturally been doing for almost 20 years...ppl think im crazy when i said steph curry wouldnt have been nearly as good as he is now because the first 30 foot shot he put up with 15 left on the clock, he would have been benched for games on end...and he would have stopped trying to shoot that shot

[tbdog]

After the article and only one game in, it is so clear now.

[ElNono]

exactly...and not only do they immediately get the hook, but in lonnie's case, he gets taken out for games on end...so what do u think happens next time? his game gets pussified and he thinks too much instead of doing what he has naturally been doing for almost 20 years...ppl think im crazy when i said steph curry wouldnt have been nearly as good as he is now because the first 30 foot shot he put up with 15 left on the clock, he would have been benched for games on end...and he would have stopped trying to shoot that shot

We're not winning shit in the foreseeable future, and we're not getting a #1 in a trade for either, at least keep around guys that show up, want to play and are fun to watch. That's the main reason LMA definitely needs to go, he's all about his jumpers, disappears in crunch time, and continually talks about GTFO.

[r0drig0lac]

I knew when they started hyping this 15th man in practice years ago that he would be another coaches pet.

I knew when I heard the sob story about his kids and getting his shot in SL and excelling that this charity case would end up playing just too many minutes with this team. Look where we are now

And, now, seeing how much of a green light and pass on defense he gets - the kind that only other coach's pets like Bonner, Finley, Mills, and Belinelli got - I just know that he's getting that big loyalty contract too. Fucking book it.

That's Pop putting himself above the franchise, Forbes wouldn't play more than 15 minutes anywhere else, and probably wouldn't be a starter on euroleague elite teams.



A few games ago, Walker was benched for not fighting hard enough on switches and early pick ups while defending Kawhi, and that's the disconnect for me. Pop watches Patty, Forbes, Beli, and Demar blow defensive opportunities every game without punishment, but White & Walker get the hook almost immediately for mistakes.

and some people here believe that Lonnie is really motivated watching this shit happen game after game.

[dbestpro]

I could understand the loses if Pop was trying to acclimate White and Murray working together. White needs to be the starting PG from here on out. Murray should play a hybrid wing role of SF/SG that is more along the lines of how Rodman played (just do what you do best). DeRozan needs to be considered the starting SG. LMA needs to be considered a PF and reinsert Poetl into the starting lineup.

Defense gets solved and confidence issues get solved. Pop, however, has regressed to what is one of the poorest coaches in the NBA. What happened over the summer seemed to have done a number on him.

[TimDunkem]

^That offense would still suck though. Just a poorly built team with several pieces that compound core problems.

[GAustex]

I could understand the loses if Pop was trying to acclimate White and Murray working together. White needs to be the starting PG from here on out. Murray should play a hybrid wing role of SF/SG that is more along the lines of how Rodman played (just do what you do best). DeRozan needs to be considered the starting SG. LMA needs to be considered a PF and reinsert Poetl into the starting lineup.

Defense gets solved and confidence issues get solved. Pop, however, has regressed to what is one of the poorest coaches in the NBA. What happened over the summer seemed to have done a number on him.
I’d like to see it tried. Murray decision making and ball handling at the critical moment is suspect. He needs to shoot and make his pick and roll jumper though not matter what.
I trust White as the decision maker as point. He needs to recover his last form which has fallen off.
Without the two young guards playing well there is no chance.

[objective]

Fun defensive hustle stat that I thought about making a thread about, but whatever

guard deflections per 36 minutes (https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=MIN*G*150&PlayerPosition=G&sort=DEFLECTIONS&dir=1)

filtering for 'guards' who have played at least 150 minutes on the season = 152 players

'guards' is pretty loose as it includes Rudy Gay, Brandon Clarke and Oubre among others, but mostly guards

Out of 152 guards ranked in deflections per 36

Bryn Forbes is ranked 150

Marco is ranked 151

Dejounte number 3, Thybulle number 1

So more wood for the Spurs bad defense bonfire

Forbes and Marco are combining for what, 44.5 minutes? But they do as little to interrupt opposing offensive flow as any guard combination. Even when opposing players aren't going right through Forbes and Marco, the defense still suffers because those guys aren't breaking up any passes or knocking away any dribbles.

Mills gets his hands on balls 3 times as much. Dejounte, 7 times as much.

[objective]

As far as the Spurs roster, not filtering for total minutes

'Un-competitive Lonnie' of course somehow getting more than twice as many deflections per 36 as Marco, and twice as much as Forbes. Imagine if he was just as competitive!

[GreekSpursfan]

I used to believe in this guy but yeah, he's just another chucker but our problems are way deeper.

[dbestpro]

Forbes is a short Bonner.

[TimDunkem]

Forbes is a short Bonner.

Which is worse. Bonner could stick his hands up and had some strength. Forbes can't stick with a single player in this league.

[Russ]

i said this EXACT thing two years ago and ppl shit on me for saying it....

And they'll do the same thing two weeks from now . . .

[duncan2k5]

We're not winning shit in the foreseeable future, and we're not getting a #1 in a trade for either, at least keep around guys that show up, want to play and are fun to watch. That's the main reason LMA definitely needs to go, he's all about his jumpers, disappears in crunch time, and continually talks about GTFO.

Exactly! The guy literally said he wanted to play on another team while on this one, and everyone let it slide

[duncan2k5]

And they'll do the same thing two weeks from now . . .

Sadly

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

So many problems going on with this team right now. Perhaps a large but overlooked one is that unlike the past Popovich no longer yells at his best players. In the past it was almost a cliché that pop would yell at Tim Duncan. Now, he won’t even look at DeMar DeRozan.

[Chomag]

Which is worse. Bonner could stick his hands up and had some strength. Forbes can't stick with a single player in this league.
:lol because of how much Truth this is.

[DPG21920]

Spurs need to be shopping Bryn, Mills and probably DeRozan/LMA too. If they can get positive value for Mills and/or Bryn they should.

[slick'81]

Spurs need to be shopping Bryn, Mills and probably DeRozan/LMA too. If they can get positive value for Mills and/or Bryn they should.

Bryn doesnt make enough scratch to be a asset in any deal and mills isnt going anywhere

[DPG21920]

Bryn doesnt make enough scratch to be a asset in any deal and mills isnt going anywhere

You can combine Bryn with a friendly contract (Carroll/Beli) and net something positive one would hope. Mills is playing really well, is a solid leader and a good shooter so he should have value to certain teams. There will never be a moment where Mills value is higher than it is right now.

[slick'81]

You can combine Bryn with a friendly contract (Carroll/Beli) and net something positive one would hope. Mills is playing really well, is a solid leader and a good shooter so he should have value to certain teams. There will never be a moment where Mills value is higher than it is right now.


No i agree with you.mills is actually playing decent enough if youre a mills fan .which is why i feel the spurs wont move the wombat closer

[vavvi]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ07MkcVUAAMl-z.jpg

Forbes face is so depressing there

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Look even closer^^^ and mills is just above him

[DPG21920]

Greak Freak is just amazing - even with modern flaws he’s still the most impactful player. Luka :wow

[SAGirl]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ07MkcVUAAMl-z.jpg

Forbes face is so depressing there
wOW,
I missed this post since it was buried behind other threads. Forbes the worst defensive player in the league. His offense (he has a sweet looking shot that is it), does not make up for how awful he is everywhere else. OMG. Pop playing this guy like he's the team's 3rd best player is a problem.

Starting to think of him as an empty stats player. Getting a lot of minutes and shots, boosting points in a bad team.

[timvp]

wOW,
I missed this post since it was buried behind other threads. Forbes the worst defensive player in the league.

Yeah, great find by vavvi.

The math behind TPA is a little iffy but here are the worst defenders in the league ...

https://i.imgur.com/MgmomyZ.jpg

:lol @ Pop acting surprised to give up 138 to the Wizards. He's lucky it wasn't more, tbh.





P.S.

Man, dude, DPG21920, your dream team of Mills, Forbes and Kennard really would give up 200 points.

[SAGirl]

Yeah, great find by vavvi (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=52182).

The math behind TPA is a little iffy but here are the worst defenders in the league ...

https://i.imgur.com/MgmomyZ.jpg

:lol @ Pop acting surprised to give up 138 to the Wizards. He's lucky it wasn't more, tbh.





P.S.

Man, dude, DPG21920 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=13014), your dream team of Mills, Forbes and Kennard really would give up 200 points.

Even worse than I.Thomas and I didn't think that was possible. Probably attributable to all the tough defensive assignments Forbes is given. Definitely within a role, I think Forbes could help some team. But played like he's the 3rd best player in a team is going to expose him.

I could not avoid noticing that the Spurs have Forbes, Mills, Belli, and Demar all in that list. WOW.

[vavvi]

Yeah, great find by vavvi (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=52182).

The math behind TPA is a little iffy but here are the worst defenders in the league ...

:lol @ Pop acting surprised to give up 138 to the Wizards. He's lucky it wasn't more, tbh.



I wonder how much his defensive assignments contribute to this.
I mean he's the primary defender of Beal, SGA etc by design. It's not only that the offenses seek to attack him, it's also that he is often specifically asked to defend the most talented offensive players.

[vavvi]

Even worse than I.Thomas and I didn't think that was possible. Probably attributable to all the tough defensive assignments Forbes is given. Definitely within a role, I think Forbes could help some team. But played like he's the 3rd best player in a team is going to expose him.

I could not avoid noticing that the Spurs have Forbes, Mills, Belli, and Demar all in that list. WOW.

Trae Young is considerably, considerably better. And he's basically a midget with big minutes and no interest in defense

[SAGirl]

I wonder how much his defensive assignments contribute to this.
I mean he's the primary defender of Beal, SGA etc by design. It's not only that the offenses seek to attack him, it's also that he is often specifically asked to defend the most talented offensive players.
It has to be a factor, bc he competes and makes an effort... he's overmatched all the time. In a proper role I think he could help some team. The way Pop plays him, nope.

[r0drig0lac]

Even worse than I.Thomas and I didn't think that was possible. Probably attributable to all the tough defensive assignments Forbes is given. Definitely within a role, I think Forbes could help some team. But played like he's the 3rd best player in a team is going to expose him.

I could not avoid noticing that the Spurs have Forbes, Mills, Belli, and Demar all in that list. WOW.

you wouldn't have to look at this list, just watch the games to know that the Spurs have the worst defenders in the league on their roster.

[SAGirl]

you wouldn't have to look at this list, just watch the games to know that the Spurs have the worst defenders in the league on their roster.
I have seen it in games but I don’t watch every game and certainly not all teams, so seeing a graphic that shows them in relation to everyone else is still eye opening to me.

[poopbox]

Even worse than I.Thomas and I didn't think that was possible. Probably attributable to all the tough defensive assignments Forbes is given. Definitely within a role, I think Forbes could help some team. But played like he's the 3rd best player in a team is going to expose him.

I could not avoid noticing that the Spurs have Forbes, Mills, Belli, and Demar all in that list. WOW.

There are 32 players on this list...we have 4 of them...and 3 of them are starters...:cry

[NASpurs]

There are 32 players on this list...we have 4 of them...and 3 of them are starters...:cry

Yeah I noticed that too; Jesus Christ no wonder we suck. :lol

But Pop preaches defense I guess.

[NASpurs]

Someone posted this on reddit

https://i.redd.it/79r0w8onw2041.jpg

[JeffDuncan]

Murray the only + player on defense. D'Antoni would be proud. Why aren't we? Oh yeah, it must have to do with win/loss. Hm.

[duncan2k5]

Someone posted this on reddit

https://i.redd.it/79r0w8onw2041.jpg

So Murray is as valuable on offense as white... Yet is the most valuable defender on the team... Yet ppl say white is significantly better... I'm glad this confirms what my eyes have been telling me

[HarlemHeat37]

How can anybody blame Forbes(not saying timvp is doing that) when everybody already knew his limitations? He was coming off a solid season, looked better than Patty in last year's key games, but he should never be starting for an NBA team. There's no reason he can't be a good 7th/8th man playing short minutes.

[slick'81]

So we needed a chart to realize demar,belli,forbes and mills play little to no defense?

[spurs10]

You can combine Bryn with a friendly contract (Carroll/Beli) and net something positive one would hope. Mills is playing really well, is a solid leader and a good shooter so he should have value to certain teams. There will never be a moment where Mills value is higher than it is right now.
That is true about Mills, as he is having a good season off the bench and getting us back in games. I'm sure Bryn is being kept because of his youth, but that could help "net something positive" which is what we are all hoping. The Morris backstabbing and Bertans loss look worse and worse with every loss, but we have to do something about it.

[GreekSpursfan]

The most important takeaway from this chart is that the talent on this team is non existent and that the two biggest contracts are a disaster. Pop(i think we are seeing his last season as a coach) is gonna have to make a desicion sooner rather than later and blow this thing up.

[DPG21920]

Just don’t make the same mistake with Forbes that you made with Mills/Pau. Just don’t. I’m happy for Forbes, I want him to set up his family for life, but don’t do it Spurs.

You saw the negative impact from giving Mills that deal. His “leadership” hasn’t kept the team from losing and Pop himself calling out a lack of leadership.

You saw the issue with Pau contract. You can’t give out loyalty contracts to player that just don’t matter. Especially when you don’t already have a built in championship team where the continuity *might pay off.

[slick'81]

Just don’t make the same mistake with Forbes that you made with Mills/Pau. Just don’t. I’m happy for Forbes, I want him to set up his family for life, but don’t do it Spurs.

You saw the negative impact from giving Mills that deal. His “leadership” hasn’t kept the team from losing and Pop himself calling out a lack of leadership.

You saw the issue with Pau contract. You can’t give out loyalty contracts to player that just don’t matter. Especially when you don’t already have a built in championship team where the continuity *might pay off.


If pop is still here forbes will return.bryn is pops new love and we all know bryn wont be removed from the strating lineup as long as derozan stays at sf.lets just all hope he doesnt get 12.5 per,maybe 7-8?im sure he can feed his kids with that

[spurs10]

Just don’t make the same mistake with Forbes that you made with Mills/Pau. Just don’t. I’m happy for Forbes, I want him to set up his family for life, but don’t do it Spurs.

You saw the negative impact from giving Mills that deal. His “leadership” hasn’t kept the team from losing and Pop himself calling out a lack of leadership.

You saw the issue with Pau contract. You can’t give out loyalty contracts to player that just don’t matter. Especially when you don’t already have a built in championship team where the continuity *might pay off. Can't argue here and I too am happy for Forbes to have obtain the almost unobtainable, an NBA contract. He has value, but it's not as a starting 2 who has to defend the best in the NBA for most of a game.

[ZeusWillJudge]

I'm telling you - Walt Lemon is capable of giving them enough minutes at the point to allow White and Murray to play together. And he can be had on a min contract.

He's a good distributor that could keep things moving well enough to give White/DJ minutes together, and not wear out Murray right now.


Walt Lemon had 28 points and 8 AST tonight, and was 3-3 from 3P. Instant improvement for this team, available for a min contract.

[JeffDuncan]

Walt Lemon had 28 points and 8 AST tonight, and was 3-3 from 3P. Instant improvement for this team, available for a min contract.

Trouble is, in getting Walt to make Lemonade, we gotta get rid of the sourness of Forbes and Beli. How we gonna do that?

[ZeusWillJudge]

Trouble is, in getting Walt to make Lemonade, we gotta get rid of the sourness of Forbes and Beli. How we gonna do that?


That's just a bonus. Beli fits in this one... I checked the dimensions.


https://images.uline.com/is/image//content/dam/images/H/H2000/H-1579_6.jpg?

[spurs1990]

I went back to see who started at SG since Duncan's rookie year to see where Forbes ranks and it isn't a pretty picture. Here's the full list with every player having at least a 20 game total of starts in a season:

1) Vinny Del Negro 1998
2) Jaren Jackson 1998
3) Mario Elie 1999-2000
4) Derek Anderson 2001
5) Steve Smith 2002
6) Stephen Jackson 2003
7) Hedo Turkoglu 2004
8) Manu Ginobili 2004-2008, 2010-2011
9) Michael Finley 2006-2009
10) Brent Barry 2007
11) Keith Bogans 2010
12) Danny Green 2012-2018
13) Bryn Forbes 2019-2020

Not surprisingly only Bogans (50 starts) comes close to matching Forbes' mediocrity and the Spurs had their worst season in 2010 because of it.

The moral of the story is that they should have tried to keep Green in 2018. He's still producing more than Forbes and can defend several levels higher.

To note - Forbes started 81 games in 2019 and is 20/20 for the 2020 season so far. We need Walker to step up and take this position over. Cannot have a 6'3 SG start.

[Slippy]

I went back to see who started at SG since Duncan's rookie year to see where Forbes ranks and it isn't a pretty picture. Here's the full list with every player having at least a 20 game total of starts in a season:

1) Vinny Del Negro 1998
2) Jaren Jackson 1998
3) Mario Elie 1999-2000
4) Derek Anderson 2001
5) Steve Smith 2002
6) Stephen Jackson 2003
7) Hedo Turkoglu 2004
8) Manu Ginobili 2004-2008, 2010-2011
9) Michael Finley 2006-2009
10) Brent Barry 2007
11) Keith Bogans 2010
12) Danny Green 2012-2018
13) Bryn Forbes 2019-2020

Not surprisingly only Bogans (50 starts) comes close to matching Forbes' mediocrity and the Spurs had their worst season in 2010 because of it.

The moral of the story is that they should have tried to keep Green in 2018. He's still producing more than Forbes and can defend several levels higher.

To note - Forbes started 81 games in 2019 and is 20/20 for the 2020 season so far. We need Walker to step up and take this position over. Cannot have a 6'3 SG start.

It's pretty obvious Bryn is the coach and Gms pet. Green wasn't. Look at the way pop keeps talking up that next contract for Bryn. I mean who the hell does that when you have salary cap limits and trying to avoid paying luxury tax. Pop is basically happy to shoot himself in the foot here. Seems odd to me since he president that signs of on the contracts.

Bryn is the exception. Loninie on the other hand. Go and learn to be competitive. We already got you cheap Haha

[EasyMoney]

Can't lie. Despite Danny green having moments where he completely disappears off the stat sheets. I miss his defense.

[ElNono]

Bryn, god bless his soul, is bench filler talent at best. Gary Neal/Money Mason/Fathead style. I get that Pop wants to do charity, but there's an NBA Cares program already, tbh...

You could trot talent like this when you had Duncan, Manu or Kawhi to make smart defensive decision to cover all the fuckups, but not with this roster.

[SAGirl]

Unfortunately he ends up generating a lot of fan hate when people should be hating coach Pop for having him in such a prominent, secured role. What? No one is a threat to take minutes from him?

[ZeusWillJudge]

It's pretty obvious Bryn is the coach and Gms pet.


"When we found him, he was nothing. Just look at him now. And he's such a polite boy."

[TimDunkem]

^Basically...

[slick'81]

Hey! He and patty combined for 9 points and 3 assists

[timvp]

This was an amazingly bad series of plays by Forbes.

1) Bluffs a double-team, loses his man, gives up a layup. Rudy Gay mad at him.

2) Shoots a contested three-pointer with 15 seconds on the shot clock.

3) His man picks off DeRozan in transition. Forbes should have either switched or at least helped enough to allow DeRozan to recover. He did neither. DeRozan forced to foul. DeRozan with the not-so-subtle expletives in Forbes' general direction.

j7ge2

[sasaint]

Somebody on Youtube says that Orlando should NOT trade for Dumbmar because they need a 3-point threat. I say send 'em Forbes.

[Cryptic Parable]

There is really no need to have Forbes and Patty one is enough. We need so
e grit players and rebounding is an issue. Defense, shooting, length and rebounding needs to be addressed but mentality is huge. Where are the dogs? I miss Mario Elie and I consider him a Rockets guy.

[slick'81]

There is really no need to have Forbes and Patty one is enough. We need so
e grit players and rebounding is an issue. Defense, shooting, length and rebounding needs to be addressed but mentality is huge. Where are the dogs? I miss Mario Elie and I consider him a Rockets guy.


Yup,their defense and combined 1-8 from three is just a double dose of poision

[K...]

Forbes is a starter because we never got a good sf, so DeRozan was moved from his natural position into the SF. If white and Murray had been healthy last year byrnn wouldn't have been a starter. If the spurs had a great SF this year, or a better guard (Murray and White still suck) he wouldn't start. But apparently the Spurs have a bunch of mediocre talent and positional mismatches, but sure it's all Forbes fault!

[cd98]

I went back to see who started at SG since Duncan's rookie year to see where Forbes ranks and it isn't a pretty picture. Here's the full list with every player having at least a 20 game total of starts in a season:

1) Vinny Del Negro 1998
2) Jaren Jackson 1998
3) Mario Elie 1999-2000
4) Derek Anderson 2001
5) Steve Smith 2002
6) Stephen Jackson 2003
7) Hedo Turkoglu 2004
8) Manu Ginobili 2004-2008, 2010-2011
9) Michael Finley 2006-2009
10) Brent Barry 2007
11) Keith Bogans 2010
12) Danny Green 2012-2018
13) Bryn Forbes 2019-2020

Not surprisingly only Bogans (50 starts) comes close to matching Forbes' mediocrity and the Spurs had their worst season in 2010 because of it.

The moral of the story is that they should have tried to keep Green in 2018. He's still producing more than Forbes and can defend several levels higher.

To note - Forbes started 81 games in 2019 and is 20/20 for the 2020 season so far. We need Walker to step up and take this position over. Cannot have a 6'3 SG start.

Green is obviously the better player, but the Lakers are paying him $14,634,147. The Spurs are paying Bryn $2,875,000. You get what you pay for, for sure, but I'm guessing Plan A was not to have Bryn be the starter. He's there because he is the "best" 3 point shooter on the roster. But it's a no win because you either start Forbes or Patty to get the 3 point spacing. Can any other guards on the roster make teams pay consistently if they are left wide open?

[poopbox]

For a 3 point shooter Forbes doesn't really seem to understand spacing...he doesn't really find cracks in the defense or really know how to use his shooting to put defenders in bad spots to create room for other players...

Contrasted with say Bertans who no matter what defense you run he is going to find a way to get an open look at a 3...because he actually understands spacing and how to move around the court and where his shots are going to be coming from...

[SayTown]

This was an amazingly bad series of plays by Forbes.

1) Bluffs a double-team, loses his man, gives up a layup. Rudy Gay mad at him.

2) Shoots a contested three-pointer with 15 seconds on the shot clock.

3) His man picks off DeRozan in transition. Forbes should have either switched or at least helped enough to allow DeRozan to recover. He did neither. DeRozan forced to foul. DeRozan with the not-so-subtle expletives in Forbes' general direction.

j7ge2



If that was Lonnie Walker I can't even imagine what Pop would tell the reporters about him.

[GreekSpursfan]

If we are tanking which we are(i hope) then the Forbes experiment is a complete success.

[GAustex]

Forbes is a starter because we never got a good sf, so DeRozan was moved from his natural position into the SF. If white and Murray had been healthy last year byrnn wouldn't have been a starter. If the spurs had a great SF this year, or a better guard (Murray and White still suck) he wouldn't start. But apparently the Spurs have a bunch of mediocre talent and positional mismatches, but sure it's all Forbes fault!
K you got that right on the button.
That is the problem-the little talent we have does not mesh.
If you keep DDR he should be the 2. But we have no 3.
That is where the Carroll signing is so bad cause that spot could be a budget 3.
Both PGs spitting the bit along with aging LMA and Rudy plus nothing great from PFs and Jakob is caught up in all this shit and good grief Beli and the one talent is plastered to the bench and when Patty is playing the best of anyone and all you got for a talented ball handler is DDR..:what a mess.

[slick'81]

K you got that right on the button.
That is the problem-the little talent we have does not mesh.
If you keep DDR he should be the 2. But we have no 3.
That is where the Carroll signing is so bad cause that spot could be a budget 3.
Both PGs spitting the bit along with aging LMA and Rudy plus nothing great from PFs and Jakob is caught up in all this shit and good grief Beli and the one talent is plastered to the bench and when Patty is playing the best of anyone and all you got for a talented ball handler is DDR..:what a mess.


Yea when pattys mills 11/2 is the lone bright spot you know youre fcked

[spurraider21]

forbes is on a good contract, he's only making 3 mil per. if he just came off the bench and played the gary neal role, i'd love his presence on the team.

but pop is dead set on making this guy a full time starter playing 27 minutes per game. he's not even shooting well this year either.

[slick'81]

forbes is on a good contract, he's only making 3 mil per. if he just came off the bench and played the gary neal role, i'd love his presence on the team.

but pop is dead set on making this guy a full time starter playing 27 minutes per game. he's not even shooting well this year either.

Yup exact same stats as mills but worse shooting %'s

[JeffDuncan]

Yup exact same stats as mills but worse shooting %'s

And of all things, Mills is a better defender.

[Joseph Kony]

saw this earlier on realgm, not sure how accurate it is but it is not surprising in the least. skipping the part he has about best/worst offensive players since we have neither:


A look at the best and worst rated players (using a 500 minute minimum for just guys playing starter minutes) by 538's new Raptor ranking at roughly a quarter of the way through the season. I usually find the bottom more interesting then the top in these sorts of ratings as you generally already know who's at the top


Defense:



Best:
Gobert 6.2
Harrell 5.3
Butler 5.3
J Allen 4.5
A Davis 4.4
Isaac 4.4
OG 4.0
Bam 3.9
Giannis 3.8
T Thomposn 3.7

Worst:
Forbes: -5.1
Paschall -5.1
Miles Bridges -4.4
Booker -4.2
DeRozan -4.1
Garland -3.9
Lou Will -3.9
Trae Young -3.9
Sexton -3.9
Beal -3.8




The top ranked defenders are mostly who you'd expect - strong defensive bigs, led by Gobert. Harrell isn't usually seen as this strong of a defender though and Jimmy Butler notably ranks high as a wing defender.

The bottom ranked defenders are some kids mixed with offensive stars that are giving back a bunch on defense. Beal and Young bring enough offensive value to be solidly positive overall while Booker and Lou only get back to near even.

Overall:



Best:
Harden 13.0
Doncic 10.2
Giannis 9.8
Butler 9.6
LeBron 9.1
Towns 8.2
Harrell 8.0
A Davis 5.5
Lillard 5.4
Isaac 5.1
J Allen 5.1

Worst:
Garland -7.6
Poole -5.9
Miles Bridges -5.9
Lauri M -5.9
Paschall -5.7
Ingles -5.6
Forbes -4.7
Bryant -4.6
Westbrook -3.6
DeRozan -3.4
Hunter -3.4








jesus fuck man....by 538's RAPTOR rating system Forbes it the worst defender in the NBA that's getting rotational minutes :lmao and of course Derozan not far behind him. it's 100% obvious why SA sucks so bad

[Sugus]

Yeah, just play Forbes 25m+ every game, it's not like you have a talented, young, promising SG/SF rotting on the bench... :depressed

[ElNono]

3) His man picks off DeRozan in transition. Forbes should have either switched or at least helped enough to allow DeRozan to recover. He did neither. DeRozan forced to foul. DeRozan with the not-so-subtle expletives in Forbes' general direction.

I didn't even watch the video you posted, and I remember this play from the game. I recall thinking who was the idiot that didn't switch to stop the ball, and yep, sure enough, it was Forbes lost on D per par.

[SequSpur]

Uh Bryn Forbes is one of the top 2-3 players the Spurs have. Most consistent. Only dude that can hit a shot.. Only dude that busts his ass every second of the game... What are you watching timvp?

[SequSpur]

I see the stats, but put down the newspaper and watch a game. Forbes kicks ass. Tonight as well.

[timvp]

SequSpur, you think he's adequately sized to compete on defense as a starter?

[UZER]

Pop still with the Patty Forbes lineup in OT.

The only reason Pop got away with Forbes so much was because Westchuck was in full effect. He was getting exposed on D except when WB bailed him out over and over by chucking.

[JeffDuncan]

I see the stats, but put down the newspaper and watch a game. Forbes kicks ass. Tonight as well.

Except, Forbes has trouble kicking ass on defense when he's running around lost, ten yards from the ass he's been assigned to kick.

[ZeusWillJudge]

I just watched the replay to see if I was being too hard on Forbes. I wasn't. That bastard is SO lost on defense, so often it should be criminal. Not saying he never does anything good, or that he doesn't make shots. But he's sitting in No Man's Land swiveling his head a lot. Damn near everything he giveth, he taketh away.

[duncan2k5]

Uh Bryn Forbes is one of the top 2-3 players the Spurs have. Most consistent. Only dude that can hit a shot.. Only dude that busts his ass every second of the game... What are you watching timvp?

LMFAO! bro... Even I can go out there and bust my ass... Doesn't stop me from being trash and doesn't stop the team from being better offensively when I'm on the bench (as is the case with Forbes)

[RC_Drunkford]

Uh Bryn Forbes is one of the top 2-3 players the Spurs have. Most consistent. Only dude that can hit a shot.. Only dude that busts his ass every second of the game... What are you watching timvp?

Pop is that you?

Forbes would be good off the bench, just not starting. He's the best player in the NBA when it comes to pull ups after one dribble, 73% eFG. One of Mills/Forbes has to go

[Russ]

Pop is that you?

Forbes would be good off the bench, just not starting. He's the best player in the NBA when it comes to pull ups after one dribble, 73% eFG. One of Mills/Forbes has to go

I would consult the actuarial tables . . .

[ZeusWillJudge]

He's the best player in the NBA when it comes to pull ups after one dribble, 73% eFG.


That sounds like a marketing opportunity. Just leave out the part where shooting over him turns scrubs into All-Stars. And running through him. And around him.

Having Forbes in the SL is like finding a $100 bill, but having a hole in your pocket and losing it... plus all the other money you worked for. He's money - you just don't get to keep it.

[GreekSpursfan]

Unfortunately we need his shooting, he has to start. We are the worst team shooting the 3.

[JeffDuncan]

Unfortunately we need his shooting, he has to start. We are the worst team shooting the 3.

No, that doesn't mean he has to start. It only implies he should play significant minutes.

[MultiTroll]

Hey with this edgy take, just how soon can we expect the HOF - best coach in NBA to realize Bryn needs to moved from starter?

[duncan2k5]

Unfortunately we need his shooting, he has to start. We are the worst team shooting the 3.

We are also the worst defensive team...the person who will be replacing him can also shoot threes and play a LOT more defense

[Russ]

No one seems to get this. They didn't get it on page 2 of this thread (see below) and they still don't.

The naivete of talking about Forbes like he's supposed to be a defensive stopper would just make people who make a living at this (employed NBA personnel) laugh out loud.


Timvp has assembled an impressive case against Forbes but I'll push back a bit.

Most teams, good or bad, start a guard who is weak on D. It's kind of like having a starting pitcher who can't hit -- when comparing such pitchers, you don't talk about which pitcher hits worse (who really cares) you talk about who is the better pitcher. That's what they're paid to do and that's their value.

Forbes' value will be determined by his offensive performance -- especially on a team as desperate for three-point shooting as the Spurs. Take a look at Game 7 of the Denver series and then straight-face the claim that he hurts this team.

And if you want to evaluate weak defensive guards within a team defense (like the Spurs'), I would suggest you start with looking at how often that guard is out of position. Forbes holds up fairly well under that standard. For example, in both of the clips in the article, Forbes was between his man an the basket. Small praise but at least better than Lonnie Walker who often wanders around close to half court like he's playing a one-man zone against the Jumbotron. (And with Walker's offensive potential, he shouldn't be evaluated only on his defense either.) In short, staying in front of your man doesn't break down a team defense nearly as badly as completely losing your man does.

As far as attempting to extrapolate Forbes' defensive play by looking at team defense statistics when he's in, I think that's a reach. I'm not a fan of +/- analysis and such stats seem to be venturing dangerously into that territory. Believe your eyes -- Forbes seems to always hit a big three when the team most needs it, when the team is going bad. Those are statement shots that can affect the game much more than the same shot in a less critical situation.

Pop has taken a lot of heat here lately during this losing streak, some of it deserved. But when it comes to evaluating defense, I'll defer to him every day of the week. Pop absolutely will not play anyone who misses defensive assignments and yet he starts Forbes.

So is Forbes a defensive liability? Absolutely. Does he hurt the team as a starter? I think not.

[UZER]

Forbes starting is really dumb. Forbes closing is just asinine.

[John B]

With White/Lonnie showing both can hit the 3, there’s no reason Forbes should be starting with no defense.

[RD2191]

Uh Bryn Forbes is one of the top 2-3 players the Spurs have. Most consistent. Only dude that can hit a shot.. Only dude that busts his ass every second of the game... What are you watching timvp?

My problem with Forbes has been the same problem I've always had with Mills, what does it matter if you drop 20 but give up 25 on the other end? He's not Harden or any other similar player, his offense, no matter how good, will never make up for his shortcomings on defense.

[RD2191]

No one seems to get this. They didn't get it on page 2 of this thread (see below) and they still don't.

The naivete of talking about Forbes like he's supposed to be a defensive stopper would just make people who make a living at this (employed NBA personnel) laugh out loud.

We get the stupid point you're trying to make, but you're wrong.

[ZeusWillJudge]

No one seems to get this. They didn't get it on page 2 of this thread (see below) and they still don't.

The naivete of talking about Forbes like he's supposed to be a defensive stopper would just make people who make a living at this (employed NBA personnel) laugh out loud.


ENOUGH already! Who the fuck expects Bryn Fucking Forbes to be a "defensive stopper"? Show me what you're talking about, because I don't think anybody said that ever. He's arguably the worst defensive player in the league. If not THE worst, then certainly close to the bottom. Nobody thinks he's going to be a defensive stopper, and nobody expects that. Nobody. So either show where people are expecting Forbes to be a defensive stopper or shut that straw man shit down.

We've watched games this year where play after play the other team goes looking specifically for Forbes as a scoring opportunity. I don't give a rat's ass if he puts up 50 a game, if he's giving up 70 easy points to the other team. (I guess I should scale that down for you: I don't give a rat's ass if he puts up 13 a game, if he's giving up 20 easy points to the other team.)

Nobody is down on Brynn because he's not the second coming of Bruce Bowen. It's because he's a non-defender most of the time. Does he ever get in a defensive lick? Sure. But I could set out a traffic cone, and occasionally someone would stumble over it.

The point of the article is that he can't be a starter in the NBA. That's true. Just as important, he can't be a starter alongside DDR, because the two of them make a hole you can drive a semi truck through. And if it's a choice between DDR and Forbes, there really isn't a choice. Forbes should not be starting on this team, as constructed.

Oh, and your statement that he always makes a 3 just when the team really needs it? He's averaging 13 points per game, period. It's 13 points, no matter where it comes. Maybe if he'd made a couple of 3's earlier in the game, the team wouldn't be in such need later. He makes enough 3's to average 13 ppg. THAT is who he is on offense. On defense, he's a hill that the other players have to climb constantly.

[Russ]

Oh, and your statement that he always makes a 3 just when the team really needs it? He's averaging 13 points per game, period. It's 13 points, no matter where it comes.

Forgetting about when Forbes' points come, he's third on the team in scoring behind only DeRozan and Aldridge.

[RC_Drunkford]

That sounds like a marketing opportunity. Just leave out the part where shooting over him turns scrubs into All-Stars. And running through him. And around him.

Having Forbes in the SL is like finding a $100 bill, but having a hole in your pocket and losing it... plus all the other money you worked for. He's money - you just don't get to keep it.

we all know that, but that's not the issue. The issue is still the coach. He wants to play Forbes and Mills so he splits them up (even though he still finds ways to play them together). Forbes off the bench would work. Would probably be one of the better bench players in the NBA. Spurs just gotta trade him or Mills and I'd say trade the more expensive contract

[Mugen]

Forgetting about when Forbes' points come, he's third on the team in scoring behind only DeRozan and Aldridge.

Interesting, Russ. So do you think that Bryn is the 3rd most important player on the team then? You think he's a legit starter in this league?

[Russ]

Interesting, Russ. So do you think that Bryn is the 3rd most important player on the team then? You think he's a legit starter in this league?

I think he's a legit starter for this team.

[Russ]

Do you remember the 3 that Tim drilled in Phoenix, and what that meant? All I said was that Lonnie came down with purpose and drilled that shot. I haven't seen anyone else on this roster doing that. And games like this can turn around a season.


Oh, and your statement that he always makes a 3 just when the team really needs it? He's averaging 13 points per game, period. It's 13 points, no matter where it comes.

Which is it?

[RD2191]

I think he's a legit starter for this team.
You're right, he's a perfect starter for an 8-14 team.

[Mugen]

You're right, he's a perfect starter for an 8-14 team.

:lol

[timvp]

The naivete of talking about Forbes like he's supposed to be a defensive stopper

Wow, that's an impressive strawman.

No one expects Forbes to be a defensive stopper. If he were average on defense or even below-average-but-competes at even a Matt Bonner level, that'd be great.

But multiple advanced stats literally find Forbes to be the worst defender in the NBA. And, again, it's not even his fault, really. He's usually in the right position and he usually knows what he's supposed to be doing. The problem is his lack of size or length combined with a lack of athleticism makes it impossible to competently compete on the defensive end against other starters.

[NASpurs]

You're right, he's a perfect starter for an 8-14 team.

:lol couldn't have said it any better

[SpurPadre]

Forgetting about when Forbes' points come, he's third on the team in scoring behind only DeRozan and Aldridge.

Yeah because he's a motherCHUCKER who takes way too many shots than I've been comfortable with all this time. He has the greenest of green lights so it's no wonder he's third in scoring. Gay, White and Murray would average more points a game if they took as many shots as Forbes.

[hater]

:lmao anyone thinking Forbes was ever seriously considered to be an nba starter :lol

this is like thinking Ime Udoka was a failed experiment as a starter starter :lol

[Slippy]

Thst last foul to exit game is exactly why Bryn doesn't belong as a starter. He acted all upset, pop wasnt buying it. You don't foul a shooter but was anyone actually surprised. Only Bryn was.

Watch the replay. Its quite funny to see his and pops quick interaction . At that time of the game if the s purs lost. We all be having Bryn for breakfast.

[Russ]

Yeah because he's a motherCHUCKER who takes way too many shots than I've been comfortable with all this time.

Forbes had 25 points on only 13 shots last night. This is too easy.

[SpurPadre]

Forbes had 25 points on only 13 shots last night. This is too easy.

Moving the goalpost. We're talking about the season, not one game.

[MultiTroll]

But multiple advanced stats literally find Forbes to be the worst defender in the NBA. And, again, it's not even his fault, really. He's usually in the right position and he usually knows what he's supposed to be doing. The problem is his lack of size or length combined with a lack of athleticism makes it impossible to competently compete on the defensive end against other starters.
GOAT coach putting players in a position to succeed?

Mission Impossible.

[SAGirl]

Forgetting about when Forbes' points come, he's third on the team in scoring behind only DeRozan and Aldridge.
And last I looked 3rd in minutes played and the team isn’t good with him playing that many minutes and having that large a role.

[UZER]

Thst last foul to exit game is exactly why Bryn doesn't belong as a starter. He acted all upset, pop wasnt buying it. You don't foul a shooter but was anyone actually surprised. Only Bryn was.

Watch the replay. Its quite funny to see his and pops quick interaction . At that time of the game if the s purs lost. We all be having Bryn for breakfast.

He always has that aw shucks dammit overreaction when he makes defensive mistakes, which is a lot of them. I don’t think anyone buys it anymore, he just sucks on defense period.

[FkLA]

I've always been one of Forbes biggest defenders but the argument was always that he filled in admirably last season in a role that he was never meant to play. The assumption was that he wouldn't need to do that with a healthy Murray. That he'd be better suited in a situational/spark plug type role.

The real problem is that Pop didn't get the memo, tbh.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Forbes isn't built for the NBA. He's the ultimate over-achiever, but he doesn't have the physical tools to contribute as a starter at this level. He and Mills should share about 15-18 minutes a game and lead the towel waving crew from the bench.

[NASpurs]

This scrub has played 220 games and has started 115 of those (which is over half for the math illiterate).

Only on this team. :lol This feel good story needs to have a conclusion on the bench.

[dbestpro]

Wow, that's an impressive strawman.

No one expects Forbes to be a defensive stopper. If he were average on defense or even below-average-but-competes at even a Matt Bonner level, that'd be great.

But multiple advanced stats literally find Forbes to be the worst defender in the NBA. And, again, it's not even his fault, really. He's usually in the right position and he usually knows what he's supposed to be doing. The problem is his lack of size or length combined with a lack of athleticism makes it impossible to competently compete on the defensive end against other starters.

He is Steve Kerr. Sort of.

[Arcadian]

The moral of the story is that they should have tried to keep Green in 2018. He's still producing more than Forbes and can defend several levels higher.
On that note - How the fuck did Toronto have the audacity to request Leonard AND Green in a trade...and how the fuck did the Spurs agree to it? When you're trading for a superstar like Leonard, the best player in the league, THAT'S ALL YOU'RE GETTING. You don't get another starter-caliber player along with him, I'm sorry. I don't care if you throw in a draft pick and Poeltl. All three of your pieces combined are still less valuable than Leonard.

[Mugen]

Forbes isn't built for the NBA. He's the ultimate over-achiever, but he doesn't have the physical tools to contribute as a starter at this level. He and Mills should share about 15-18 minutes a game and lead the towel waving crew from the bench.

Yeah, there's really no need to have both Patty and Forbes on the team. They're the exact same player (undersized SGs whose only NBA skill is shooting). Add in Beli and you've got a Spicy Shit Trio tbh.

Most playoff teams would probably live with having one of those guys on the court for 20-25 mins a game but Pop's got at least one checked-in for the full 48 minutes and many times 2 out of the 3 :lmao

[GreekSpursfan]

We are also the worst defensive team...the person who will be replacing him can also shoot threes and play a LOT more defense

Apart from Forbes no one can hit the three, NO ONE. He's the only true shooter on the team and that is the tragic part of all this.

[UZER]

Pop chooses a 6’2 undersized 3 point chucker over a 6’10 3 point savage

What a surprise

It’s the ol zag instead of zig.