Grades: Spurs @ Wizards - Nov. 20, 2019

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-at-washington-wizards-game-15/

tl;dr:

https://media.giphy.com/media/mCXbaPC1VUvjW/giphy.gif

[Spurs fever]

Thanks for the grades.

[DPG21920]

I honestly never thought I’d see the day where it was pop holding the team back from their potential (regardless of what said potential is) but here we are.

Pop has too much reliance on corporate knowledge and is struggling to adapt because of it. He’s compromised and Brian Wright needs to remove the temptation and force pop to do what’s right.

I believe that if Mills (to a lesser degree since he’s been good), Beli & Forbes weren’t here he’d have the team in the thick of it.

But with them here he won’t make the tough decisions.

And alienating the youth on the heels of Kawhi bolting is scary.

[TDomination]

I feel like Poo is just giving all spurs fans the middle finger for some reason.
thanks for the grades

[Gibbz]

Forbes higher rating than DJ :rollin

[John B]

Pop said he’d win scoring 132, but lose giving up 138. Dude, really? Why then play Mills/Forbes/Beli to outscore the opponent but not play defense? Geez. It’s a f%cking numbskull not to figure out defense wins ballgames. Spurs have better defensive players who are not sniffing the court while Pop rides Mills/Forbes/Beli. Is it a shock treatment to justify a dramatic move? I hope so.

[phxspurfan]

This team has a leadership problem. Pop can't be the leader, a player has to lead them on the court. When LMA goes for 12 points and is one of the leaders of the team, the team is bound to lose.

Supporting point: take a look at Beal. Dude is ballin out, as the sole leader of a listless team playing through a snakebitten injury to its best player (Wall) who just got a huge contract. Sucks, but he's leading them to any wins they get.

In the post-Duncan era, it seems like Pop is the leader of the team, which is a bad sign. A coach can't hit big buckets or win games. The key players need to step it up.

[ShutUp SayItAgain!]

Pretty much the grade Pop should have gotten last years playoffs

[monty4329]

So now you want Marco more on the floor???

Didn't he cost us every loss until yesterday?

[vavvi]

Why would any coach put the absolutely worst defender in the whole league (according to a nice diagram I posted yesterday) on Bradley Beal?

okay maybe Pop is old or something but doesn’t he have his coaching staff?

I tend to think more and more that the biggest offseason loss was not Morris or Bertans but Messina. I know many posters hated him here but I watched many of his games in Euroleague live, and if he can do one thing at the top level it’s figuring out defensive matchups and schemes. Maybe if Messina was still here we wouldn’t see so many Forbes on the opponents best player

[tbdog]

As Timvp explained, All season Beli has not be able to put the ball in the basket and was still giving minutes. Finally he is looking good offensively and he gets bench?

[tbdog]

I didn't watch much of the game but I did watch the most the third and most of the fourth. Our defensive schemes is just horrid. Open corner 3's and baseline cutters. And just let Beal, who is like 6ft3 bully Forbes in the third without making an adjustment.

[monty4329]

Why would any coach put the absolutely worst defender in the whole league (according to a nice diagram I posted yesterday) on Bradley Beal?

okay maybe Pop is old or something but doesn’t he have his coaching staff?

I tend to think more and more that the biggest offseason loss was not Morris or Bertans but Messina. I know many posters hated him here but I watched many of his games in Euroleague live, and if he can do one thing at the top level it’s figuring out defensive matchups and schemes. Maybe if Messina was still here we wouldn’t see so many Forbes on the opponents best player


Becky :lmao

[Thunder1]

Thanks for the grades...

[KobesAchilles]

Can’t put this loss on Pop. He made the right adjustments. We scored 132, that should be enough to win the game. Pop did everything he could to put us in a position to win the game and anyone else complaining about it is unjustifiably whining.

At the end of the day it’s about desire to win and LMA doesn’t have it this year. That’s not on Pop. L-Train isn’t even trying on defense anymore, the dude is worthless now that he isn’t scoring.

[vavvi]

Can’t put this loss on Pop. He made the right adjustments. We scored 132, that should be enough to win the game. Pop did everything he could to put us in a position to win the game and anyone else complaining about it is unjustifiably whining.

At the end of the day it’s about desire to win and LMA doesn’t have it this year. That’s not on Pop. L-Train isn’t even trying on defense anymore, the dude is worthless now that he isn’t scoring.

So putting the worst defender in the league on Bradley Beal is the right adjustment?

[acoelho1]

Pops post game was asinine. Yeah you give up 138 points because your starting backcourt can’t stop anyone. It’s like Forbes & Mills are immune from criticism and still no Walker. I can only come to the conclusion that the Spurs are tanking and trades are imminent because our strategy makes no sense.

[KobesAchilles]

So putting the worst defender in the league on Bradley Beal is the right adjustment?

We also had the worst defender in the league on LMA and he didn’t take advantage of it. Our problems have been Aldridge related, not Pop. Again, Pop put in the adjustments that got us 132. We have veterans in the system now for years. They should know the rotation and where to be and how to play defense. It’s been preached every day to them for years, what more can you ask of Pop? He can’t play defense for them

[vavvi]

We also had the worst defender in the league on LMA and he didn’t take advantage of it. Our problems have been Aldridge related, not Pop. Again, Pop put in the adjustments that got us 132. We have veterans in the system now for years. They should know the rotation and where to be and how to play defense. It’s been preached every day to them for years, what more can you ask of Pop? He can’t play defense for them

I agree that LMA is a major problem this season, his regression is as damaging as coaching regression. But putting Bryn Forbes on Bradley Beal and trying to outscore one of the best-offense/worst-defense teams in the league on their home floor is just poor coaching.

[SAGirl]

Thanks for the grades as always.

Forbes was overplayed IMO. 33 minutes? That’s too much. Expect to lose a game in which he has such a large role. That’s too much. I’d rather live with Murray mistakes and see what happens or give some minutes to Walker. 33 minutes? Demar 40 minutes? It’s too much.

[BackHome]

I feel like Poo is just giving all spurs fans the middle finger for some reason.
thanks for the grades

Yep Yep

[Darius Bieber]

TimVP finally joining the dark side. Been waiting a long time for this to happen, welcome to the club.

[Darius Bieber]

So now you want Marco more on the floor???

Didn't he cost us every loss until yesterday?

Yep.. More losses = better pick... Tank is in full swing!

[Mugen]

I honestly never thought I’d see the day where it was pop holding the team back from their potential (regardless of what said potential is) but here we are.

Pop has too much reliance on corporate knowledge and is struggling to adapt because of it. He’s compromised and Brian Wright needs to remove the temptation and force pop to do what’s right.

I believe that if Mills (to a lesser degree since he’s been good), Beli & Forbes weren’t here he’d have the team in the thick of it.

But with them here he won’t make the tough decisions.

And alienating the youth on the heels of Kawhi bolting is scary.

If you're expecting a 70yo guy to all of a sudden change his stripes then I've got some bad news for you. :lol

They're going to end up picking Forbes over White/Lonnie. I'm pretty sure of it assuming those guys don't ask for trades first.

[jjktkk]

Too many one dimensional players on this team. Pop needs to get rid of one of the trio of Mills, Forbes, and Belinelli. White when healthy, and Murray need to be on the floor at all times. Not having a true, starting caliber SF, really hurts this team. Like a couple of posters in this thread stated, having a disinterested, underperforming Aldridge is one of the biggest culprits to this losing season so far.

[J_Paco]

I honestly never thought I’d see the day where it was pop holding the team back from their potential (regardless of what said potential is) but here we are.

Pop has too much reliance on corporate knowledge and is struggling to adapt because of it. He’s compromised and Brian Wright needs to remove the temptation and force pop to do what’s right.

I believe that if Mills (to a lesser degree since he’s been good), Beli & Forbes weren’t here he’d have the team in the thick of it.

But with them here he won’t make the tough decisions.

And alienating the youth on the heels of Kawhi bolting is scary.

True, he's coaching the team as if Duncan, Ginobili and Parker will suddenly unretire and morph back into their 20 year old selves.

Makes absolutely no sense to bench Murray, even with his struggles, for a guard lineup with two lesser, defensively inept guards.

Makes no sense to go big against a quick, athletic team when either Aldridge or Poeltl are lacking in post play. Aldridge has been allergic to backing his man down and punishing on the block (feels like his "I want to be traded" season all over again).

Makes no sense to play Carroll limited minutes in the second half when he's been cold from lack of time.

Makes no sense to not play at least one of the young guys (Walker IV, Metu or Johnson) to see if they can bring a defensive or overall spark.


This is by far Pop's most stubborn and petulant coaching period of his career. Not sure there is anyone around that can steer him in another direction.....

Side-note: I strongly, strongly disagree with giving either Forbes or Mills anything higher than a C-. They were the primary reason Ish Smith(!) and Bradley Beal went off for 50+ points combined. Just a stupidly bad combination to have on the floor as starters.....

[duncan2k5]

Timvp is smoking crack if he thought Murray was as bad as Aldridge and worse than Lyles, Carroll, and Forbes

[duncan2k5]

Can’t put this loss on Pop. He made the right adjustments. We scored 132, that should be enough to win the game. Pop did everything he could to put us in a position to win the game and anyone else complaining about it is unjustifiably whining.

At the end of the day it’s about desire to win and LMA doesn’t have it this year. That’s not on Pop. L-Train isn’t even trying on defense anymore, the dude is worthless now that he isn’t scoring.

We have scored that much before this season... Scoring isn't the issue... We won't score 130 every game with that lineup... We played the wizards.. My hat was a shitty adjustment from Pop

[MoSpur02]

Pop was pretty close to retiring this off-season. I was kinda bummed when I initially heard that, but now I sorta wish he would've. His rotations/lineups make absolutely no sense.

[J_Paco]

Pop was pretty close to retiring this off-season. I was kinda bummed when I initially heard that, but now I sorta wish he would've. His rotations/lineups make absolutely no sense.

Well, the ship be sinking (or is sunk) so I see this being his last hurrah. Shitty way for a great coach to go out but everyone looks like TOSB in the end.....

[timvp]

Side-note: I strongly, strongly disagree with giving either Forbes or Mills anything higher than a C-. They were the primary reason Ish Smith(!) and Bradley Beal went off for 50+ points combined. Just a stupidly bad combination to have on the floor as starters.....

But how much is that on Forbes and Mills underperforming and how much is that is due to a coach asking them to do something they can't?

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

Becky :lmao

[Manu20]

When I saw the starting line up I was out...lol

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oKIPuPr3O3XIM6a5i/giphy.gif

[John B]

Can’t put this loss on Pop. He made the right adjustments. We scored 132, that should be enough to win the game. Pop did everything he could to put us in a position to win the game and anyone else complaining about it is unjustifiably whining.

At the end of the day it’s about desire to win and LMA doesn’t have it this year. That’s not on Pop. L-Train isn’t even trying on defense anymore, the dude is worthless now that he isn’t scoring.
Sadly the game is not played only at one side of the court. They scored 132, but gave up 138. That’s atrocious defense from a Spurs team who’s historically been a good defensive organization. We cannot outscore the opponent, when they can easily score on us. And that’s coaching. Granted Demar choke yet again in the FT when it mattered most. But playing against a lowly team, it shouldn’t even be close.

[DPG21920]

But how much is that on Forbes and Mills underperforming and how much is that is due to a coach asking them to do something they can't?

I agree - especially Forbes. I’ve said he’s been the player most put in a position to fail for 2 years now. Even knowing that he typically competes hard. Can’t fault him too hard.

Mills is similar but he was given a huge raise and didn’t improve at all.

[vavvi]

I agree - especially Forbes. I’ve said he’s been the player most put in a position to fail for 2 years now. Even knowing that he typically competes hard. Can’t fault him too hard.

Mills is similar but he was given a huge raise and didn’t improve at all.

Mills is having a good season. He can't improve, he's limited by his body. Mostly he competes hard enough.
He's an okay energy spark from the bench. He was never going to be more than that.

[emmo]

Pop was pretty close to retiring this off-season. I was kinda bummed when I initially heard that, but now I sorta wish he would've. His rotations/lineups make absolutely no sense.

Oh wow. That explains a lot. What a bad way to ride off into the sunset, having your wife pass away, your franchise player fuck you over and trying to steer the ship of a badly constructed roster led by uninspired veterans. I’m a Pop fan and have been a long time. Hindsight, I wish he would have retired when Tim did like he said he would. Had he known uncle would pull the shit he did, I bet he would have.

[TDomination]

True, he's coaching the team as if Duncan, Ginobili and Parker will suddenly unretire and morph back into their 20 year old selves.

Makes absolutely no sense to bench Murray, even with his struggles, for a guard lineup with two lesser, defensively inept guards.

Makes no sense to go big against a quick, athletic team when either Aldridge or Poeltl are lacking in post play. Aldridge has been allergic to backing his man down and punishing on the block (feels like his "I want to be traded" season all over again).

Makes no sense to play Carroll limited minutes in the second half when he's been cold from lack of time.

Makes no sense to not play at least one of the young guys (Walker IV, Metu or Johnson) to see if they can bring a defensive or overall spark.


This is by far Pop's most stubborn and petulant coaching period of his career. Not sure there is anyone around that can steer him in another direction.....

Side-note: I strongly, strongly disagree with giving either Forbes or Mills anything higher than a C-. They were the primary reason Ish Smith(!) and Bradley Beal went off for 50+ points combined. Just a stupidly bad combination to have on the floor as starters.....

After reading this post all i can do is shake my head and wonder why.

I love my spurs and always will.

i don't mind the losing season, but i feel its happening because of rotations and lineups not because we just aren't good enough. its coaching vs just a lack of talent and experience. not saying playing the young guys wins us games but heck if your willing to play your 2 worst defensive players together you truly cant be stubborn enough to try and play your 2 best defensive players together. right?

but thats exactly whats happening.

[DPG21920]

Mills is having a good season. He can't improve, he's limited by his body. Mostly he competes hard enough.
He's an okay energy spark from the bench. He was never going to be more than that.

I’m talking about from the season he got paid. If he was never going to improve its even a worse decision if SA thought that.

[vavvi]

I’m talking about from the season he got paid. If he was never going to improve its even a worse decision if SA thought that.

I think it was an obvious loyalty contract. Nobody expected him to get better at basketball. Maybe better at mentoring, transfering "corporate knowledge" etc

[r0drig0lac]

Too many one dimensional players on this team. Pop needs to get rid of one of the trio of Mills, Forbes, and Belinelli. White when healthy, and Murray need to be on the floor at all times. Not having a true, starting caliber SF, really hurts this team. Like a couple of posters in this thread stated, having a disinterested, underperforming Aldridge is one of the biggest culprits to this losing season so far.

in the ideal world he should get rid of them all.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

What yall are complaining about pop is what us edgelords have been saying since Bonner Blair. The man is a stubborn old sob . He refuses to go with the obvious and play his better defensive players cause he has his favorites.

[Seventyniner]

Pop was pretty close to retiring this off-season. I was kinda bummed when I initially heard that, but now I sorta wish he would've. His rotations/lineups make absolutely no sense.

If things don't end badly, they usually don't end.

[Mugen]

What yall are complaining about pop is what us edgelords have been saying since Bonner Blair. The man is a stubborn old sob . He refuses to go with the obvious and play his better defensive players cause he has his favorites.

Floyd.

[spurs10]

There is Tim Duncan and Becky Hammon sitting next to Pop on the bench. Surely White being out was not a great hand, but the idea of Forbes, Mills, and DDR getting hammered is not surprising to fans, so why is it not surprising to the coaches? Forbes on Beal was not necessarily Forbes' fault, but it was the game. That was the most likely win we had coming in the next several games and it was sad. Philly will score a couple of 40 pt quarters and #8 will be here soon. Can we beat the Knicks? Maybe them, but any other team in the NBA will beat a defense like we saw last night.

[DPG21920]

I think it was an obvious loyalty contract. Nobody expected him to get better at basketball. Maybe better at mentoring, transfering "corporate knowledge" etc

We will never know, and while loyalty obviously played a role I highly doubt they sunk that much money into Mills with the expectation that he would not improve aspects of his game.

[timvp]

We will never know, and while loyalty obviously played a role I highly doubt they sunk that much money into Mills with the expectation that he would not improve aspects of his game.

Didn't Mills sign that contract at 29? Nobody thought he would improve. He was already declining by the time he signed it.

What we smokin?

[vavvi]

Didn't Mills sign that contract at 29? Nobody thought he would improve. He was already declining by the time he signed it.

What we smokin?

Exactly. But it was a move showing the league that SAS takes care of its veterans and values loyalty and leadership

[timvp]

But it was a move showing the league that SAS takes care of its veterans and values loyalty and leadership

It was the leadership, the fact that Parker's leg just exploded, the Nets were going hard after him and the Spurs wanted to retain point guard experience.

[DPG21920]

Didn't Mills sign that contract at 29? Nobody thought he would improve. He was already declining by the time he signed it.

What we smokin?

If that is the case, it makes the deal even worse in my mind. While older, I definitely feel like if you get paid, it’s because you are worth the raise and will elevate the team.

[DPG21920]

It was the leadership, the fact that Parker's leg just exploded, the Nets were going hard after him and the Spurs wanted to retain point guard experience.

Man, that is even more atrocious in hindsight. Not the logic of keeping him, but paying that much.

[timvp]

If that is the case, it makes the deal even worse in my mind. While older, I definitely feel like if you get paid, it’s because you are worth the raise and will elevate the team.

https://media.giphy.com/media/mfE9HC596UTmg/source.gif

[DPG21920]

https://media.giphy.com/media/mfE9HC596UTmg/source.gif

Am I wrong here :lol? 50M for a guy who you know doesn’t move the needle because you want a PG that is not really a PG and can’t defend and has no chance to elevate the team?

Maybe I am naive on this one, but usually when you get a raise it’s because you are expected to take on more responsibility capably.

[timvp]

Am I wrong here :lol? 50M for a guy who you know doesn’t move the needle because you want a PG that is not really a PG and can’t defend and has no chance to elevate the team?

Maybe I am naive on this one, but usually when you get a raise it’s because you are expected to take on more responsibility capably.

I mean, if you were holding out hope for a 29-year-old Patty Mills to improve, you're .... one optimistic fellow.

[DPG21920]

I mean, if you were holding out hope for a 29-year-old Patty Mills to improve, you're .... one optimistic fellow.

I was the OG sniffer.

[SpursDynasty85]

Am I wrong here :lol? 50M for a guy who you know doesn’t move the needle because you want a PG that is not really a PG and can’t defend and has no chance to elevate the team?

Maybe I am naive on this one, but usually when you get a raise it’s because you are expected to take on more responsibility capably.

I agree with both of you here. Patty Mills was tasked to be the "culture guy" after this raise. Expecting his on the court capability (especially with all the young guards on our team) is probably overkill. We all like the progress of our young guys yet no one wants to believe/credit that "Patty's presence" has been helping them.

[duncan2k5]

Loyalty contracts only makes sense to lifelong franchise players... Not role players... If a young star sees Tim Duncan getting a loyalty contract, they will get it... That's wouldn't stop them from wanting to play for us... But when they see it going to over the hill role players that have only been on the team for a couple years, that's not a team they are gonna wanna play on... These young dudes don't wanna play on a team with a bunch of old, overpaid trash that they have to carry every night

[r0drig0lac]

Loyalty contracts only makes sense to lifelong franchise players

[acoelho1]

The issue is not Mills contract but who is getting the minutes. Murray & White should be averaging at least 30mins a game with Walker taking all of Marcos minutes. On the latter, if given consistent mins, he would easily beat out Forbes & Mills.

[DPG21920]

The issue is not Mills contract but who is getting the minutes. Murray & White should be averaging at least 30mins a game with Walker taking all of Marcos minutes. On the latter, if given consistent mins, he would easily beat out Forbes & Mills.

That is part and parcel. You play guys you pay and whats the point of paying guys you shouldn’t play

[spurs10]

The issue is not Mills contract but who is getting the minutes. Murray & White should be averaging at least 30mins a game with Walker taking all of Marcos minutes. On the latter, if given consistent mins, he would easily beat out Forbes & Mills. I agree the segue into Mills' contract is not the issue here, but I'm not convinced Walker could "easily beat out Forbes & Mills." The rabbit hole I'm currently digging is who, apart from Pop, thought it was a good idea lessening our defensive lineup against the Wizards? It's definitely the part of this write-up that seemed to be the obvious problem and Pop is surely mostly to blame. However is there any input from the rest of the coaching staff?

Yes we didn't dig a huge whole in the first quarter, but they did score 35. Meaning it looked like our plan was only to outscore them. I'm wondering if anyone is looking at the analytics like timvp has written about clearly showing we are at the bottom of the heap when certain lineups are on the court. Our options are limited I reckon, but having guys like Carroll never play is puzzling.

[spurs10]

That is part and parcel. You play guys you pay and whats the point of paying guys you shouldn’t play Mills has been one of our better players off the bench. That starting lineup was another thing.

[UZER]

It was the leadership, the fact that Parker's leg just exploded, the Nets were going hard after him and the Spurs wanted to retain point guard experience.

The only person that thinks Mills is an NBA point guard is Greggorious Popmonovich.