Why Pop's new starting lineup is disastrous in the short-term and long-term

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/san-antonio-spurs-new-starting-lineup-total-disaster/

tl;dr: Defense worse, Murray's leadership ability neutered.

[DPG21920]

Reads like some ST Edgelord manifesto :lmao

JK - but yeah. Murray was really the only leader on this team with any pull. Not fair to put that all on him but his personality called for it. To do that to him is so strange considering Pop himself was asking “where is the leadership”?

You just took it and sat it on the bench.


Beyond that, Pop has to find a way to let go of his own biases and do what is right for the team. It’s odd to me that his logic of making the move was to “fix the slow” starts. That is like saying I want to cure your cough when you have cancer. Yeah, getting rid of the cough is nice, but that does not fix what truly is ailing the body.

[apalisoc_9]

trying too hard to be an edgelord and mask his atrocious sniffing articles and post the last two years

[raybies]

Have to say, either there’s a deep state to the spurs and they are doing everything they can to fire sale and tank or pop has lost his mind

[apalisoc_9]

TD21

look at the op stealing the thoughts you've always had about the same players and watch all the casual vanila say its completely something new and ground breaking

[TD 21]

Obviously not defending the changes, but I wouldn't worry about one of Murray or White being out of the rotation altogether.

The path to playing them together is cleaner off the bench. By doing so, it's easier to factor in their minute limit and it keeps them away from DeRozan and puts them alongside Gay and Belinelli, giving them a modicum of spacing.


TD21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=908)

look at the op stealing the thoughts you've always had about the same players and watch all the casual vanila say its completely something new and ground breaking

:wow Exactly. I'm the only person I know of who's used the word phobic with regards to this organization's bizarre disdain for the 3 and specifically as it relates to DeRozan, yet magically it appears in this article. Coincidence? I think not.

[UZER]

Timvp spent days poking and prodding the edgelords as cover for his slow conversion to their side.

[benefactor]

TD21

look at the op stealing the thoughts you've always had about the same players and watch all the casual vanila say its completely something new and ground breaking
Don't @ that faggot. Of course that is what he thinks. He's been jerking off waiting for the day that the Spurs would be shit for years now. You want me to pull up some of his Leonard threads before the Spurs won the title?:lol

Now he can just sit back and enjoy the shitshow and blow his load on this lottery bound, piece of shit team.

[ZeusWillJudge]

"Put it this way: If DeRozan, who has a long history of making teams worse defensively, is the best perimeter defender in your starting lineup, your team is in big trouble."

That's a pretty strong case. So either: a)Pop doesn't have any analytics people b)Pop doesn't listen to his analytics people c) the analytics people are afraid to force Pop to pay attention.

I said all last year that DDR and Forbes can't be on the floor together. During the playoffs, I let myself believe that it might be possible this season. But they have been even worse than they were last season. Bottom line, DDR and Forbes can't be on the floor together. DDR, Forbes, and Mills are a freaking train wreck. Put those three on the floor together, and it doesn't matter if White and Murray are playing together off the bench.

Poeltl may not be a perfect fit with LA, but at least when he's there Aldridge doesn't have to play C. Way back when Aldridge signed, we heard that he didn't want to play center. I think that's true.

Belinelli needs to go away. Period. It's worth repeating - Belinelli needs to go away. Period. He's not an NBA player at this point. The Spurs could replace him with damn near anybody and improve. His only reason to exist is 3P shooting, and he's not doing that. He's shooting .260 on 2-pointers. He's shooting 61% from the FT line. He's an invitation to score on defense. Gimme Keldon Johnson, with all his inexperience, right now. Cut Beli, give KJ 100% of Beli's minutes, and the Spurs are instantly better than they are with Beli playing. I guarantee you KJ would defend better than Marco, and I'm pretty confident he would be more efficient on offense. What else is there?

[Sugus]

Don't @ that faggot. Of course that is what he thinks. He's been jerking off waiting for the day that the Spurs would be shit for years now. You want me to pull up some of his Leonard threads before the Spurs won the title?:lol

Now he can just sit back and enjoy the shitshow and blow his load on this lottery bound, piece of shit team.

Please do, tbh, I'm interested in the forum's reaction to the KL situation as it was going down...

[Prose]

I'm sure pops loss of his wife has hurt his mental health and is negatively impacting him.

[spurs10]

Great article. I would like to think that White being out was a big reason Mills played pg and agree pulling Murray was not good for anything. It would look pretty good to see Patty at the 2 actually. Forbes could do what he probably would be very good at, providing a spark and offence. This starting lineup has to change and it's more than just last game's starting line, which was a disaster.

[gambit1990]

like i had said over the summer... pop should've retired this past offseason and ran for senate.

[Leetonidas]

Welcome to Hot Topic. We are having a sale on razorblades over near the my chemical romance tees

[Slippy]

Yap like I said in your other thread from 1 to 3 the spurs are bottem of the barrell. Your stats hammers it home.

Agree on Lyles who was emerging. Another youngster about to have his confidence dealt with.

[spurs10]

I'm sure pops loss of his wife has hurt his mental health and is negatively impacting him. I'm sure that was painful, but coaching is probably medicinal and gives him something to do besides grieve. I think the fact that nephew and uncle were actively conspiring against him during that battle was probably not a good feeling, but I don't think his mental health is a problem. It's Forbes I'm telling you!!! F-O-R-B-E-S!!!!

[phxspurfan]

Btw Murray picking the moment after being demoted to bench player to announce he is now with Kawhi's New Balance. Coincidence?

[slick'81]

Sadly replacing mills with forbes in the sl will make absolutely no difference.I also dont think pop would expect mills to guard the opposing teams best sg ala forbes but you never know

[RD2191]

Thanks for the write up.

[KobesAchilles]

It seemed to solve one of our biggest issues though. We start off every game with no energy, pace, and flow. We had our best 1st quarter in a long while and DDR had his best game of the year. Give Poetl time to adjust to quick rotations and get LMA engaged again and we have our team.


For all of Murray's good (and there's a lot) he doesn't get Aldridge involved and he doesn't set up others particularly well. That wouldn't be an issue if he could space the ball, but he can't. Better to have Mills and Forbes starting to free up room for our stars.

The defense will get there tho, I'm not worried about that. Hell Murray and White on the bench with Belli, Gay, and Lyles is an intriguing line up

[Chinook]

I don't know that it had anything to do with demoting Murray as much as wanting to stagger play-makers. Poeltl coming in made sense given the better spacing with Forbes and Mills and the need for some defense. I don't like it, but I think it's pretty reasonable.

I don't really think Murray's confidence needs to be the top priority right now. He clearly needs to develop the skill first, because his eyes have been too big for his stomach for a while now.

The team is quickly reaching that cross roads moment in the season where they will have to put up or blow up. Now more than ever, it seems like that may end up being a blow-up. Realizing, accepting and even embracing that are states where a lot of us are or will be soon. Personally, I'm not sure if I want the team to trade with this year in mind or to rebuild. I do think they owe it to themselves to not be too tied to any players though. When a move like this has some level of justification, I don't see why it makes sense to freak out about it. Forget the stats -- anyone with eyes can see Murray is erratic and oftentimes the good he does doesn't outweigh the bad. He shouldn't be coddled.

And shit, even if the most important thing is getting the most out of Murray, then benching him makes sense, even if it's disciplinary. He played better last night than he had in games. Getting him motivated or even just letting him hone is offensive game off the bench. Seems to have more future value than giving him the keys and watching him get worse the most he tries to do.

[ZeusWillJudge]

anyone with eyes can see Murray is erratic and oftentimes the good he does doesn't outweigh the bad. He shouldn't be coddled.


How many other players on the roster does that describe? The difference is, Murray has a chance to become more than he is right now. The others don't. It's not coddling to put him on the floor - that's where he's going to learn. If the extent of Pop's teaching consists of benching players, he really does need to move on.

Are the Spurs in win now mode, or build for the future mode? I think the answer is clearnly "neither". If this is supposed to be win now mode, they are well and truly fucked. If this is supposed to be build for the future mode, it may be even worse since their players of the future are mostly on the bench.

[Dennis the Menace]

How many other players on the roster does that describe? The difference is, Murray has a chance to become more than he is right now. The others don't. It's not coddling to put him on the floor - that's where he's going to learn. If the extent of Pop's teaching consists of benching players, he really does need to move on.

Are the Spurs in win now mode, or build for the future mode? I think the answer is clearnly "neither". If this is supposed to be win now mode, they are well and truly fucked. If this is supposed to be build for the future mode, it may be even worse since their players of the future are mostly on the bench.

Spot on. What’s so funny is that I truly don’t think he’s trying to tank right now. Pop’s moves with the vets playing instead of the youth means he’s actually trying to win. We literally look like a tanking bottom 5 team in the league except we are actually a healthy squad trying to win. It’s hilariously disgusting. A beautiful catastrophe. All you can do is laugh at this point

[Prime BEEF]

Spot on. What’s so funny is that I truly don’t think he’s trying to tank right now. Pop’s moves with the vets playing instead of the youth means he’s actually trying to win. We literally look like a tanking bottom 5 team in the league except we are actually a healthy squad trying to win. It’s hilariously disgusting. A beautiful catastrophe. All you can do is laugh at this point

well said

[Roscoe P. Coltrane]

Murray will be back in the starting line up once White comes back.

[Chinook]

How many other players on the roster does that describe?

Not nearly as many as I think you believe. There's a difference between hoping a guy get back to playing well consistently and hoping a guy who's never played well consistently all of the sudden takes the next step. No, you're not going to bench LMA and DMDR if you're trying to tank or win now. But you can definitely bench a guard with a bad mix of over-aggression in his drives and reluctance to shoot threes. People have to stop thinking of Murray as if he's some young prospect. He's 24 and is in his fourth year. Yes, he can still get better, but it's past the point where you just assume he will. One can't keep making excuses for why he and even White aren't ready to go most of the time. I'm really not saying to trade them or move on, but they aren't the future. The future isn't on the roster now. Maybe they can be part of that future, but they aren't playing well enough to bend over backwards for them.

They need to play better, and it needs to stop being everyone else's faults why that isn't happening. This isn't a sniffing take. I haven't been happy with Pop as an exec or a coach for the past couple years. I think it's clear that the USANT run cost the Spurs heavily this year, and if Pop is the coach next year, it's going to happen again. I do think it can and probably will get better without major changes, but I also think he could do some obvious stuff to fix it and he probably won't do any of them for way too long. All that said, no one is playing well enough to demand more minutes except maybe Carroll. I like you would like the team to go one way or the other. I just don't think either way makes more sense than the other right now. Either use the youth to bring in the players needed to make the LMA/DMDR duo functional, or move on from them and tank. But what a lot of folks seem to want -- moving one or both of those guys and then building around Murray and White -- just doesn't make sense right now.

[itzsoweezee]

The defense will get there tho, I'm not worried about that. Hell Murray and White on the bench with Belli, Gay, and Lyles is an intriguing line up

That's quite a hot take. The defense has been horrible all year and showing no sign of improvement. Pop makes adjustments that make the defense WORSE. And yet, it will magically become better?

By the way, how many points did the opponent score in the first quarter you're lauding?

[duncan2k5]

Not nearly as many as I think you believe. There's a difference between hoping a guy get back to playing well consistently and hoping a guy who's never played well consistently all of the sudden takes the next step. No, you're not going to bench LMA and DMDR if you're trying to tank or win now. But you can definitely bench a guard with a bad mix of over-aggression in his drives and reluctance to shoot threes. People have to stop thinking of Murray as if he's some young prospect. He's 24 and is in his fourth year. Yes, he can still get better, but it's past the point where you just assume he will. One can't keep making excuses for why he and even White aren't ready to go most of the time. I'm really not saying to trade them or move on, but they aren't the future. The future isn't on the roster now. Maybe they can be part of that future, but they aren't playing well enough to bend over backwards for them.

They need to play better, and it needs to stop being everyone else's faults why that isn't happening. This isn't a sniffing take. I haven't been happy with Pop as an exec or a coach for the past couple years. I think it's clear that the USANT run cost the Spurs heavily this year, and if Pop is the coach next year, it's going to happen again. I do think it can and probably will get better without major changes, but I also think he could do some obvious stuff to fix it and he probably won't do any of them for way too long. All that said, no one is playing well enough to demand more minutes except maybe Carroll. I like you would like the team to go one way or the other. I just don't think either way makes more sense than the other right now. Either use the youth to bring in the players needed to make the LMA/DMDR duo functional, or move on from them and tank. But what a lot of folks seem to want -- moving one or both of those guys and then building around Murray and White -- just doesn't make sense right now.

Murray made 23 two months ago

[SpurPadre]

Murray is 23 NOT 24 and given that he missed a whole year of development, he is definitely still a prospect.

[venitian navigator]

Murray, once given the starting line up, should have started shooting threes at a high rate. He didn't, probably because he's still not confident in his outside shoot and possibly because the first games were part of an easy part of our schedule (that's why he has not been benched before).
But the point is that his fear of shooting in the short period has already had bad consequences...because the guy don't have a great feel for the game (aka play making skills) and his passing ability is more than suspect as is easy to notice by the fact that his assists relies more on his atheticism than on his vision or feeling (sometismes he also misses the pass during counterattack in three against two situations).
The thing Murray has not still realized is that if he don't has an outside shot he becomes a liability...because his lack of playmaking skills and excess of penetration when the defense is set leads to multiple turnovers or bad shots not only for him but also for his teammates (expecially once his teammates are DDR and LMA who are known for not taking threes).
Thats why White was the right solution as a starting point guard...better playmaking, able to shoot from outside and also threes when necessary, slower rythm beneficial to both DDR and LMA for their mid range game...(and why Murray should have started from the bench alonside with three point shooters like Mills, Forbes, Belli and Carroll)

[Arcadian]

I thought he benched Murray just because he's on a minutes restriction and his injury flared up or something. I expect he'll be back in the starting lineup tomorrow.

[duncan2k5]

Murray, once given the starting line up, should have started shooting threes at a high rate. He didn't, probably because he's still not confident in his outside shoot and possibly because the first games were part of an easy part of our schedule (that's why he has not been benched before).
But the point is that his fear of shooting in the short period has already had bad consequences...because the guy don't have a great feel for the game (aka play making skills) and his passing ability is more than suspect as is easy to notice by the fact that his assists relies more on his atheticism than on his vision or feeling (sometismes he also misses the pass during counterattack in three against two situations).
The thing Murray has not still realized is that if he don't has an outside shot he becomes a liability...because his lack of playmaking skills and excess of penetration when the defense is set leads to multiple turnovers or bad shots not only for him but also for his teammates (expecially once his teammates are DDR and LMA who are known for not taking threes).
Thats why White was the right solution as a starting point guard...better playmaking, able to shoot from outside and also threes when necessary, slower rythm beneficial to both DDR and LMA for their mid range game...(and why Murray should have started from the bench alonside with three point shooters like Mills, Forbes, Belli and Carroll)

Murray is significantly better than white... Being able to shoot doesn't automatically make someone better on offense... The chart that shows offensive and defensive contributions to a team has Murray and White pretty much equal on offense and Murray much better than him on defense

[spurs10]

Welcome to Hot Topic. We are having a sale on razorblades over near the my chemical romance tees My Chemical Romance is too upbeat......Joy Division.

[Shakril]

I have mixed reviews on the Analysis:

Yes Mills for Murray was bad, Mills for Forbes would be OK, but in the End, the Backcourt of DeRozean, Murray and Forbes was ok. The Problem with the Starting Line Up was Lyles.
This is where i disagree with, Poeltl insertion in the Starting Line Up was good. Defense was better with him on the court, DeRozean used many good Screens from Poeltl, and LMA was not forced to play the Rim Protector which he clearly does not like.
Lyles was not Defending. I dont care how many Rebounds he gets, when he is not helping on defense. Poeltl overall is undervalued. His game does not show up in normal stats, but rather in Performance and/Or the +/- Stat. Why? He is a teamplayer. He hustles, he screens and he closes out and does many more things. It is no coincidence that with him on the Court the Team outsocres mostly their opponents. Of course if you put him with a comination of 3 from Mills, Bellineli, Forbes and DeRozean noone can overcame that lack of perimeter defense.

Poeltl was the Sollution, Mills in for Murray is not.

[Chinook]

I thought he benched Murray just because he's on a minutes restriction and his injury flared up or something. I expect he'll be back in the starting lineup tomorrow.

He wanted to stagger Murray and DeRozan and didn't think he could do that while starting both with DJM's restriction. I also expect Murray to start, but I also wanted to point out the issues with OP's reasoning.

[Chinook]

I have mixed reviews on the Analysis:

Yes Mills for Murray was bad, Mills for Forbes would be OK, but in the End, the Backcourt of DeRozean, Murray and Forbes was ok. The Problem with the Starting Line Up was Lyles.
This is where i disagree with, Poeltl insertion in the Starting Line Up was good. Defense was better with him on the court, DeRozean used many good Screens from Poeltl, and LMA was not forced to play the Rim Protector which he clearly does not like.
Lyles was not Defending. I dont care how many Rebounds he gets, when he is not helping on defense. Poeltl overall is undervalued. His game does not show up in normal stats, but rather in Performance and/Or the +/- Stat. Why? He is a teamplayer. He hustles, he screens and he closes out and does many more things. It is no coincidence that with him on the Court the Team outsocres mostly their opponents. Of course if you put him with a comination of 3 from Mills, Bellineli, Forbes and DeRozean noone can overcame that lack of perimeter defense.

Poeltl was the Sollution, Mills in for Murray is not.

They were dependent on each other. Had White been healthy, Lyles would have started. Murray, DeRozan, Aldridge and Poeltl would have been awful spacing. It would just lead to more first-quarter holes and a shittier bench to try to dig the team out.

[tbdog]

Murray insertion has actually backfired on the Spurs due to its rotation. I really thought it would make us much better. The starting lineup should be the same as last year, but add Carroll for Poeltl against small teams. Then once Murray is off restrictions and earns it, he replaces Forbes.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Not nearly as many as I think you believe. There's a difference between hoping a guy get back to playing well consistently and hoping a guy who's never played well consistently all of the sudden takes the next step. No, you're not going to bench LMA and DMDR if you're trying to tank or win now. But you can definitely bench a guard with a bad mix of over-aggression in his drives and reluctance to shoot threes. People have to stop thinking of Murray as if he's some young prospect. He's 24 and is in his fourth year. Yes, he can still get better, but it's past the point where you just assume he will. One can't keep making excuses for why he and even White aren't ready to go most of the time. I'm really not saying to trade them or move on, but they aren't the future. The future isn't on the roster now. Maybe they can be part of that future, but they aren't playing well enough to bend over backwards for them.

They need to play better, and it needs to stop being everyone else's faults why that isn't happening. This isn't a sniffing take. I haven't been happy with Pop as an exec or a coach for the past couple years. I think it's clear that the USANT run cost the Spurs heavily this year, and if Pop is the coach next year, it's going to happen again. I do think it can and probably will get better without major changes, but I also think he could do some obvious stuff to fix it and he probably won't do any of them for way too long. All that said, no one is playing well enough to demand more minutes except maybe Carroll. I like you would like the team to go one way or the other. I just don't think either way makes more sense than the other right now. Either use the youth to bring in the players needed to make the LMA/DMDR duo functional, or move on from them and tank. But what a lot of folks seem to want -- moving one or both of those guys and then building around Murray and White -- just doesn't make sense right now.


Murray made the All Defense Team two years ago, and then had to sit out all last season with an injury. He isn't back to where he was two years ago. Isn't that sort of the definition of what you just said, "hoping a guy gets back to playing well consistently"? Talking out of your ass is one thing - talking out of both sides of your ass is another. And don't lecture me about something I never said.

Beli was never that good, and he's not going to get better. Forbes was never that good, and he's not going to get better. Mills...maybe before the injury... but he was never that good since, and he's not going to get better. They aren't getting benched. And here's the thing... getting benched isn't making Murray better. Or Lonnie for that matter. That doesn't mean I think they are going to become All Stars. But if they are going to step up, it's going to happen with floor time.
I never even hinted at benching DDR and Aldridge. But Beli, Bryn, and Patty aren't part of a successful future here.

There are young players all over the league who are no better than Murray and Lonnie (or Keldon Johnson for that matter), who are getting serious minutes and improving from them. You seem to think that playing those guys will make the Spurs lose. They're 5-10 right now, and you're stuck in the past.

[MVPCues]

Have to say, either there’s a deep state to the spurs and they are doing everything they can to fire sale and tank or pop has lost his mind

Subscribed.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Murray is 23 NOT 24 and given that he missed a whole year of development, he is definitely still a prospect.


Chinook doesn't need facts to build an argument. I'm officially giving him a new nickname - Triple A. I'll tell you why later.

I just said this in response to him - if Murray was back to where he was two seasons ago, it would make a world of difference. I'm pretty sure EVERYONE (including Chinook) expected him to be even better last year, since he was clearly improving. The fact is he WAS a young prospect. And still is, unless he just can't make the comeback from his injury. I understand minute restrictions, but put him out there with White and let them stretch.

White was better last year than what he has shown this year. At some point, you have to consider that this shitshow roster and rotations aren't helping. The Spurs played pretty damn good in the first round of the playoffs last year, coming within a hair of pulling off a major upset. Here's a novel idea: try the same starting lineup that did that. You know, just try it.

[RC_Drunkford]

we all knew this line up was garbage as soon as it was announced. No need to read an article to get it

[duncan2k5]

I have mixed reviews on the Analysis:

Yes Mills for Murray was bad, Mills for Forbes would be OK, but in the End, the Backcourt of DeRozean, Murray and Forbes was ok. The Problem with the Starting Line Up was Lyles.
This is where i disagree with, Poeltl insertion in the Starting Line Up was good. Defense was better with him on the court, DeRozean used many good Screens from Poeltl, and LMA was not forced to play the Rim Protector which he clearly does not like.
Lyles was not Defending. I dont care how many Rebounds he gets, when he is not helping on defense. Poeltl overall is undervalued. His game does not show up in normal stats, but rather in Performance and/Or the +/- Stat. Why? He is a teamplayer. He hustles, he screens and he closes out and does many more things. It is no coincidence that with him on the Court the Team outsocres mostly their opponents. Of course if you put him with a comination of 3 from Mills, Bellineli, Forbes and DeRozean noone can overcame that lack of perimeter defense.

Poeltl was the Sollution, Mills in for Murray is not.

I agree

[duncan2k5]

Murray insertion has actually backfired on the Spurs due to its rotation. I really thought it would make us much better. The starting lineup should be the same as last year, but add Carroll for Poeltl against small teams. Then once Murray is off restrictions and earns it, he replaces Forbes.

What do u mean earns it? Murray is better than Forbes

[duncan2k5]

Murray made the All Defense Team two years ago, and then had to sit out all last season with an injury. He isn't back to where he was two years ago. Isn't that sort of the definition of what you just said, "hoping a guy gets back to playing well consistently"? Talking out of your ass is one thing - talking out of both sides of your ass is another. And don't lecture me about something I never said.

Beli was never that good, and he's not going to get better. Forbes was never that good, and he's not going to get better. Mills...maybe before the injury... but he was never that good since, and he's not going to get better. They aren't getting benched. And here's the thing... getting benched isn't making Murray better. Or Lonnie for that matter. That doesn't mean I think they are going to become All Stars. But if they are going to step up, it's going to happen with floor time.
I never even hinted at benching DDR and Aldridge. But Beli, Bryn, and Patty aren't part of a successful future here.

There are young players all over the league who are no better than Murray and Lonnie (or Keldon Johnson for that matter), who are getting serious minutes and improving from them. You seem to think that playing those guys will make the Spurs lose. They're 5-10 right now, and you're stuck in the past.

Get him!

[KobesAchilles]

That's quite a hot take. The defense has been horrible all year and showing no sign of improvement. Pop makes adjustments that make the defense WORSE. And yet, it will magically become better?

By the way, how many points did the opponent score in the first quarter you're lauding?
About the same opponents score every first quarter. The difference is that we weren't behind 12 points this time. Defense is about unity and desire. Get Poetl acclimated again and get Aldridge engaged and we will be fine.
If Forbes and Mills get us off to quick starts and then we sub in Murray and White, if they are who you say they are then we should dominate and get a lead.

[Chinook]

Chinook doesn't need facts to build an argument. I'm officially giving him a new nickname - Triple A. I'll tell you why later.

I just said this in response to him - if Murray was back to where he was two seasons ago, it would make a world of difference. I'm pretty sure EVERYONE (including Chinook) expected him to be even better last year, since he was clearly improving. The fact is he WAS a young prospect. And still is, unless he just can't make the comeback from his injury. I understand minute restrictions, but put him out there with White and let them stretch.

White was better last year than what he has shown this year. At some point, you have to consider that this shitshow roster and rotations aren't helping. The Spurs played pretty damn good in the first round of the playoffs last year, coming within a hair of pulling off a major upset. Here's a novel idea: try the same starting lineup that did that. You know, just try it.

Wut? The same SL last year didn't have Murray starting or playing with White. Unless you mean the preseason one of DJM, DMDR, Gay, LMA and Poeltl.

Anyways, no, Murray wasn't good enough two years ago to be in the same conversation as Aldridge and DeRozan (All-NBAers that same season). Not even close. Even if he totally earned that award (I don't feel like having that fight again) that's still not good enough to be the foundation of a team. The Warriors don't look at their roster and go "well Draymond will carry the team". Green is pretty much a bigger and more actualized version of that season's Murray. Certainly a keeper, but not a franchise guy. You don't clear out the lineup to let Draymond run the show.

I'm not disparaging Murray here. I'd like the team to keep him. But he's not the central figure here. LMA and DMDR are. And if one or especially both are traded, the the return in that deal or more likely the eventual high draft pick is the central figure. Too many people are asking for the Spurs to trade those guys for role-players and no picks. Fuck that. If you're moving on from your central guys, rebuild. Let the young guys show they can string together more than a handful of legit good games before treating them like stars.

Also, Beli is like the lowest-hanging fruit out there. No one wants him to play on this board. No reason to strawman folks about that.

[acoelho1]

The Spurs didn’t give Murray all that money if they didn’t believe he was a special talent. Keep in mind that he didn’t even play last year and the organization made it a priority to sign him now even though they could have waited. Some of you have it in for Murray for whatever reason and the bias is clear from your statements. Has Murray been inconsistent, yes...have there been times where he looks dominate, absolutely yes. Also, he’s been on that minutes restriction which is difficult to get into rhythm. Murray is this teams leader and will be going forward. Pops moves have been highly questionable this year and to me the most criminal is not playing Murray & White together and Walker being relegated to the bench.

[Truth4sale$]

Thank you again Timvp for the write up. I agree this lineup was a defensive disaster, not the changes Popovich should have made. It seemed as if he just wanted to try and outscore a team. The losses are more so on Popovich not the players. This team lacks a leader on the floor, and Popovich has maybe 2 out of 17 guys that come close, (Murray and Mills). I think Popovich is expecting LaMarcus and DeRozan to suddenly emerge as leaders but they wont, it's not their personality. It's not a flaw, but they are not the guys who can lead a team into battle. Their games will not suddenly evolve like Brook Lopez.
They are both better secondary options with a true star. I think Popovich wants to challenge some players whom he can still mold (Walker IV) but realizes some are what they are and wont change or will sulk (DeRozan and Lamarcus) and some will simply lose confidence (Forbes). That is why the lineup is what it is. Personally, I want to see Metu, and Walker get a crack and see what they can do. But nobody on the coaching staff will challenge Popovich to suggest such a thought, even the great Timmy Duncan. Wish you were here Ettore Messina. Popovich needs someone to remind him it ain't working without defense.

[SAGirl]

How many other players on the roster does that describe? The difference is, Murray has a chance to become more than he is right now. The others don't. It's not coddling to put him on the floor - that's where he's going to learn. If the extent of Pop's teaching consists of benching players, he really does need to move on.

Are the Spurs in win now mode, or build for the future mode? I think the answer is clearnly "neither". If this is supposed to be win now mode, they are well and truly fucked. If this is supposed to be build for the future mode, it may be even worse since their players of the future are mostly on the bench.
Great post Zeus. Sums up part of why this unintended tank is not a good thing the way it’s happening. Some forum posts have given me hope maybe the young players getting the doghouse bc some of these veterans are getting traded out soon and Pop can’t deflate their perceived value cutting their minutes in a youth movement. I am not convinced but have started to have hope there’s perhaps a plan B that’s not apparent. But outside that hope yeah. Doesn’t make sense to continue a losing streak on the back of the veterans with youngins getting the doghouse or demotions.

[SAGirl]

I have mixed reviews on the Analysis:

Yes Mills for Murray was bad, Mills for Forbes would be OK, but in the End, the Backcourt of DeRozean, Murray and Forbes was ok. The Problem with the Starting Line Up was Lyles.
This is where i disagree with, Poeltl insertion in the Starting Line Up was good. Defense was better with him on the court, DeRozean used many good Screens from Poeltl, and LMA was not forced to play the Rim Protector which he clearly does not like.
Lyles was not Defending. I dont care how many Rebounds he gets, when he is not helping on defense. Poeltl overall is undervalued. His game does not show up in normal stats, but rather in Performance and/Or the +/- Stat. Why? He is a teamplayer. He hustles, he screens and he closes out and does many more things. It is no coincidence that with him on the Court the Team outsocres mostly their opponents. Of course if you put him with a comination of 3 from Mills, Bellineli, Forbes and DeRozean noone can overcame that lack of perimeter defense.

Poeltl was the Sollution, Mills in for Murray is not.
Agree 100% with the opinion on Jacob. I thought he was impactful and helped. Like you I still find Lyles suspect. I don’t think he was defending all that well. He’s kind of like Forbes, he tries hard so it doesn’t feel well to criticize him, but neither are starters or good defensive players and for a big to be poor defensively is worse when a little shooting and some D are his reason for starting games.

I do understand the lack of spacing with Jakob (that lineup with him and LMA starting couldn’t score well enough to avoid slow starts in preseason). It’s an indictment on the rest of his teammates (and the FO for roster construction) and not on Jakob. I think the team needs athletes with size around Derozan and Forbes and Mills aren’t it.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Even Elnono is sad about this season :(

[Mugen]

https://youtu.be/gPbVRpRgHso?t=20

[SAGirl]

Murray insertion has actually backfired on the Spurs due to its rotation. I really thought it would make us much better. The starting lineup should be the same as last year, but add Carroll for Poeltl against small teams. Then once Murray is off restrictions and earns it, he replaces Forbes.
I’d really hope for Forbes to be replaced by someone. He is in a role too big for him atm.

[duncan2k5]

About the same opponents score every first quarter. The difference is that we weren't behind 12 points this time. Defense is about unity and desire. Get Poetl acclimated again and get Aldridge engaged and we will be fine.
If Forbes and Mills get us off to quick starts and then we sub in Murray and White, if they are who you say they are then we should dominate and get a lead.

U do realize we were a top offensive team all year long? We didn't suck on offense with Murray starting, then suddenly become great... Our only problem has been defense and our inability to close out games (no coincidence Murray has been on the bench to close out games, except one in which he had the game-winning defensive play).

We have had games where we had hot starts with Murray starting

[DesignatedT]

Pop needs to stop trying to outsmart himself with these subs and shit. Those days are over. Just play the best players. Start Murray-White-Derozan-Carroll-Aldridge with Mills Forbes Rudy and Poeltl off the bench. Don't care about the lack of spacing in the SL. Get this team playing defense. If losses are still piling up then blow it up.

[Drom John]

Dan Devine, The Ringer:
The Clippers Fully Realized, and the Five Most Interesting Teams of the Week
Examining Kawhi Leonard and Paul George’s devastating potential, the slew of new faces producing in Toronto, and the porous Spurs, who are teetering on disaster (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/22/20977381/clippers-lakers-nba-most-interesting-teams)

[timvp]

We had our best 1st quarter in a long while and DDR had his best game of the year.

DeRozan's best game of the year came against the Mavs with Murray starting.

And you don't think the good offensive first quarter was due to going against a bad team that is the worst defensive team in the league? Interesting.

[timvp]

Dan Devine, The Ringer:
The Clippers Fully Realized, and the Five Most Interesting Teams of the Week
Examining Kawhi Leonard and Paul George’s devastating potential, the slew of new faces producing in Toronto, and the porous Spurs, who are teetering on disaster (https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/11/22/20977381/clippers-lakers-nba-most-interesting-teams)

Pretty good stuff, thanks.


Over their past seven games, the Spurs have conceded a mind-boggling 122.4 points per 100 non-garbage-time possessions, according to Cleaning the Glass, dead last in the league during that span.


How Pop could think the answer to the problems is starting Mills ... man.

[KobesAchilles]

DeRozan's best game of the year came against the Mavs with Murray starting.

And you don't think the good offensive first quarter was due to going against a bad team that is the worst defensive team in the league? Interesting.
But how many good defensive teams are there? Seriously there’s maybe 5 in the whole league. We can get that kinda production against most teams, not just the Wizards.

Also imo DDR played better against the Wiz than he did the Mavs. Both games were fantastic, but we came out flat against the Mavs. I’m not saying we should close with Forbes and Mills (I know Pop did that and that’s where he fucked up) but I’m saying that starting Forbes and Mills isn’t the big deal everybody is saying it is.

[KobesAchilles]

U do realize we were a top offensive team all year long? We didn't suck on offense with Murray starting, then suddenly become great... Our only problem has been defense and our inability to close out games (no coincidence Murray has been on the bench to close out games, except one in which he had the game-winning defensive play).

We have had games where we had hot starts with Murray starting

We are a top offensive team. But we get off to slow starts more than not. Forbes and Mills bring shooting, spacing, and energy. It frees up the floor for DDR and allows him to create and be the primary ball handler. White and Murray off the bench should feast on opposing teams and would be a great combination.

I agree though we shouldn’t be closing with Mills and Forbes. No argument here. But starting Forbes and Mills isn’t a big deal.

[Truth4sale$]

Pretty good stuff, thanks.



How Pop could think the answer to the problems is starting Mills ... man.

Popovich is searching for leadership to offset the slow start. The one thing Mills has is heart. Just shouldn't been at the expense of Murray. Cant say the same for LaMarcus.

[timvp]

Forget the stats -- anyone with eyes can see Murray is erratic and oftentimes the good he does doesn't outweigh the bad. He shouldn't be coddled.

Thanks for the counterpoints in this thread.

However, I don't understand your overarching argument that Murray had a few bad games so he deserves to be shelved because he may not be an important part of the present or future. For a guy who you were advocating was worth a max extension not too long ago due to his play and a "narrative" that surrounded him, that's a pretty big fall off over a few bad games. Either you hand out max extension recommendations too readily or you believe you have seen enough to demote Murray from max player to disposable player.

And I disagree with your opinion that Murray doesn't have room for growth. Murray is 23, which is still early in the normal growth curve of a player, and he missed a year with injury, wasn't pushed in college, didn't play much as a rookie and had just recently been handed the keys. Just watching him you can tell he has talent but that he needs to refine his game. Claiming he's too old for growth is pretty strange, especially -- again -- because you wanted him on a max contract and now think he's being overrated even though he has shown a lot of growth even compared to two years ago.

What more were you expecting from Murray through 13 games other than flashes of excellence and stretches of growing pains? He's been about as good as I could have reasonably hoped for given the minutes restriction.

[duncan2k5]

We are a top offensive team. But we get off to slow starts more than not. Forbes and Mills bring shooting, spacing, and energy. It frees up the floor for DDR and allows him to create and be the primary ball handler. White and Murray off the bench should feast on opposing teams and would be a great combination.

I agree though we shouldn’t be closing with Mills and Forbes. No argument here. But starting Forbes and Mills isn’t a big deal.

Bro... That's ONE GAME! we have gotten off to hot starts with Murray starting... Ur acting like scoring 40 in the first quarter will be a norm with mills and Patty

[duncan2k5]

Thanks for the counterpoints in this thread.

However, I don't understand your overarching argument that Murray had a few bad games so he deserves to be shelved because he may not be an important part of the present or future. For a guy who you were advocating was worth a max extension not too long ago due to his play and a "narrative" that surrounded him, that's a pretty big fall off over a few bad games. Either you hand out max extension recommendations too readily or you believe you have seen enough to demote Murray from max player to disposable player.

And I disagree with your opinion that Murray doesn't have room for growth. Murray is 23, which is still early in the normal growth curve of a player, and he missed a year with injury, wasn't pushed in college, didn't play much as a rookie and had just recently been handed the keys. Just watching him you can tell he has talent but that he needs to refine his game. Claiming he's too old for growth is pretty strange, especially -- again -- because you wanted him on a max contract and now think he's being overrated even though he has shown a lot of growth even compared to two years ago.

What more were you expecting from Murray through 13 games other than flashes of excellence and stretches of growing pains? He's been about as good as I could have reasonably hoped for given the minutes restriction.

Exactly... Ppl forget how little Murray played his rookie season, and even his second season... He would have games where he wouldn't play at all

[timvp]

But how many good defensive teams are there?Compared to the Wizards, there are 13 teams that give up 10 fewer points per 100 possessions.


We can get that kinda production against most teams, not just the Wizards.Scoring 132 points in a fast paced game against the Wizards is not impressive. It's a pretty average performance for this team, tbh.

[Coach X]

It's the defense, stupid!


At Washington, IMO Murray was moved to the second unit due to his defensive struggles. Both him and White are doing a very poor job in defense and that's specially bad when they were supossed to lead the team from their position.
Popovich is looking for some defense, at least in the starting line-up. After the 1st quarter, Spurs are digging from 10-15 pts down every game. Murray wasn't helping at all so coach goes with plan B, which is 18-19 season plan: the 2 bigs line-up. Mills gets a spot as starter in order to balance the spacing and maybe as a message for DJ as well. DeJounte reacted well in Washington playing with energy again. He didn't execute very well in defense but at least he was visible on the court. I hope White's poor game is related to his injury and he can heal and play at his level again.

So far this season, DJ has shown lack of discipline and focus in most of defensive situations. He's been torched by small and fast guards but also by the big ones as well. At the beginning he was very active away from the ball so at least he helped defense disrupting opp.'s offense and deflecting the ball. Lately he hasn't contributed at all, not even rebounding.
White has been awful as well. He didn't start well but improved after some games. However he's been one of the most inconsistent players of the team during the losing streak.

They're young, and some tournovers or bad shots are accepted as part of their learning process. Though, they can't be distracted in defense, playing with no discipline, showing such lack of awareness into the defensive schemes. That's not acceptable. They're not rookies!
2019 Spurs rely too much in this two kids. Team is struggeling in defense because it's not getting what it needs from the two PGs. That's why we are having that much of Mills and Forbes, even starting now. Spurs need these two playing decent defense like you need water in the desert.




Rest of the team in defense:
No surprise on Gay playing terrible defense, he needs to score everything to avoid being an overall minus. Liles is limited but smart so he manages unless he has to guard an all-star. Not surprised either with Aldridge and Poetl inconsistency. Mills and DeRozan aren't great defenders but at least they try and they're not supossed to have a key role in that end.

Forbes' new status "no-defense-scorer" hurts the team HUGELY, he's not even trying to play defense: not being able of guarding anybody nor making a single effective help vs NBA starters. He makes some shots but it doesn't work like that to me. You barely can allow an All-star not playing defense in your team, no way you can allow it on a role player in starter minutes.




About Popovich and coaching:
We don't have enough information but it seems like the new assistant coaches group is not helping the team like Udoka and Messina did. Replacing these two for the rookie Hardy and our beloved but inexperienced Tim Duncan is having an impact in the team. It looks like there is no defensive game plan. Historically, Spurs defensive strategy correctly focused in opponents strenghts, gradually suffocating its offense as the game progressed. That's gone. Teams score 30+ 35+ points in the first quarters going to their plan A.

Defensive execution is very poor. Spurs defensive system hasn't change, they try the same covers in the regular offensive situations. Murray and White are regularly forgetting or missing what to do. Forbes and Gay are an absolute disaster, never ready to do what the team needs from them. The team defense looks inexistent or chaotic too often. Transition defense isn't being a problem as usual, which tells even more about positional defense.

Nobody out of the team understands why Belinelli keeps playing instead of Lonnie Walker IV. The last 3 times the kid had some minutes he had the perfect attitude and his play looked much better than his initial games.

Forbes' role in this team is absolutely overblown. Too many minutes, too many shots, too much importance for this little guy. He CAN'T be an NBA starter, he doesn't have the physical tools nor the talent. He has become a useful role player but our team doesn't need that much his shooting and points and it's dying because of his lack of defensive contribution. Teams are focusing their offense on him!

Our frontcourt needs phisicality, contact, agressiveness, pride, fight. Call it as you want. Please somebody go out there and play hard defense. Bigs are not even fouling. I don't think Carroll is a good defender but I'm sure he can help the team to be more assertive and let the opp feel they need to work if they want score.



I don't believe in tanking. I believe we should keep Murray, White and Walker and I don't think there is a decent trade in the market for Aldridge or DeRozan. The team must start play better defense because they have the personnel to do it. It's time for adjustments, decissions and to show what kind of professional anybody is. I blame coaches and key players 50%-50% for this situation but I believe there is still time to fix it.

[DPG21920]

Pretty good stuff, thanks.



How Pop could think the answer to the problems is starting Mills ... man.

Not just Mills. But Mills with Forbes and DeRozan.

[KobesAchilles]

Compared to the Wizards, there are 13 teams that give up 10 fewer points per 100 possessions.

Scoring 132 points in a fast paced game against the Wizards is not impressive. It's a pretty average performance for this team, tbh.

So we score 122? idk what that 100 possession stuff means :lol I just know there are 16 other teams then we can score that much against. Pretty good. Also every game nowadays is a fast paced game. The majority of teams are giving up like 110 points a game. I’ve seen no real issues with Forbes and Mills starting. I have seen an issue with them closing and I think those are two separate issues.

[Mugen]

OP should stop dancing around the edge and just say it tbh: Pop's gotta go.

[r0drig0lac]

Pop needs to stop trying to outsmart himself with these subs and shit. Those days are over. Just play the best players. Start Murray-White-Derozan-Carroll-Aldridge with Mills Forbes Rudy and Poeltl off the bench. Don't care about the lack of spacing in the SL. Get this team playing defense. If losses are still piling up then blow it up.

this

[poopbox]

We are a top offensive team. But we get off to slow starts more than not. Forbes and Mills bring shooting, spacing, and energy. It frees up the floor for DDR and allows him to create and be the primary ball handler. White and Murray off the bench should feast on opposing teams and would be a great combination.

I agree though we shouldn’t be closing with Mills and Forbes. No argument here. But starting Forbes and Mills isn’t a big deal.

Starting 2 of the 10 worst defenders in basketball isn't a big deal?

[ZeusWillJudge]

Great post Zeus. Sums up part of why this unintended tank is not a good thing the way it’s happening. Some forum posts have given me hope maybe the young players getting the doghouse bc some of these veterans are getting traded out soon and Pop can’t deflate their perceived value cutting their minutes in a youth movement. I am not convinced but have started to have hope there’s perhaps a plan B that’s not apparent. But outside that hope yeah. Doesn’t make sense to continue a losing streak on the back of the veterans with youngins getting the doghouse or demotions.


Spot on! I didn't say that the Spurs MUST go itentional tankathon. But they're doing it anyway. If you can't win then get about preparing to win. Pick a path.

If Pop can make this roster win, then he needs to get about it - soon. If not, it's okay to switch gears. I know for sure that Bryn, Beli, and Patty aren't the future. (If they are, then the future is even dimmer than the present.) If he can win now with them, do it. But if not, playing them and benching the youth, and still losing? That's the worst of both worlds.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Starting 2 of the 10 worst defenders in basketball isn't a big deal?

IMO, it's a death sentence. The league is full of talented players who can score under the right conditions. This group is giving them the right conditions every single night. That's what you're seeing out there.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

I’m curious what the best defensive starting five would be… Murray, White, Carol, Rudy, Jakob? Let me see that lineup just to see what the hell happens.

[poopbox]

IMO, it's a death sentence. The league is full of talented players who can score under the right conditions. This group is giving them the right conditions every single night. That's what you're seeing out there.


I agree...teams shoot over mills and forbes like they are not even on the court...you are going to have to break some single season scoring records to consistently win with them...

The team we have right now is not a modern nba team...it's not going to win anything of significance...its really sad that an all time great coach like pop is letting his ego get in the way of the natural progression of a basketball team yet he himself won't get over himself...

[UZER]

I agree...teams shoot over mills and forbes like they are not even on the court...you are going to have to break some single season scoring records to consistently win with them...

The team we have right now is not a modern nba team...it's not going to win anything of significance...its really sad that an all time great coach like pop is letting his ego get in the way of the natural progression of a basketball team yet he himself won't get over himself...

Yeah, in the end, it was Pop who could never get over himself.

[TD 21]

Don't @ that faggot. Of course that is what he thinks. He's been jerking off waiting for the day that the Spurs would be shit for years now. You want me to pull up some of his Leonard threads before the Spurs won the title?:lol

Now he can just sit back and enjoy the shitshow and blow his load on this lottery bound, piece of shit team.

:lmao At a 40 something man child desperately trying to cling to his youth, using hipster internet millennial sayings.

[playblair]

yo timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8) did this guy steal ur research bruh? why da fook does this keep happening to u bruh...........u really need a twitter bruh people r stealing ur work for clout & getting paid on twitter

1197742484253814784

[Chinook]

However, I don't understand your overarching argument that Murray had a few bad games so he deserves to be shelved because he may not be an important part of the present or future. For a guy who you were advocating was worth a max extension not too long ago due to his play and a "narrative" that surrounded him, that's a pretty big fall off over a few bad games. Either you hand out max extension recommendations too readily or you believe you have seen enough to demote Murray from max player to disposable player.

Okay, if you recall during our conversation about Murray's contract, I specifically said I wasn't extremely high on DJM. In a similar way to how you just did, you said then that I seemed really high on Murray if I thought he could command $25M apy. I explained then that Murray wasn't a bad player at all, but it was his off-court value that would give him a big boost. I still believe that would have been the case. So yeah, I didn't actually change my view on Murray. I love him off the court and am really rooting for his play to match that off-court value. But I don't think it has yet, and I think a lot of fans keep trying to make him seem like he's shown more than he has.



And I disagree with your opinion that Murray doesn't have room for growth.

I didn't say that he doesn't have room for growth. I said he's at the point in his career where you don't assume he's going to make a big leap to be a star. I'm never going to say he won't get there. I do think he hasn't shown enough to consider him THE CORE. Let's say I think he might be Draymond-level. That's worth $100 Million in my evaluation, especially when you factor in the off-court value. But even if he were already prime Green, I wouldn't consider trading DeRozan or Aldridge to give Dray more touches. He isn't going to be the answer by himself, not likely. We can only reasonably hope that he's part of the answer.


What more were you expecting from Murray through 13 games other than flashes of excellence and stretches of growing pains? He's been about as good as I could have reasonably hoped for given the minutes restriction.

Murray's not doing anything unexpected from my PoV. Hopefully by this point it's clear that I'm neither overreacting nor flip-flopping. I've been considered a Murray shill and hater over the past couple months. My view on him has always been complicated. I've always liked him but not believed in him, if that makes sense. I think he hasn't earned the status your OP assigns to him. Benching him (if that is what it was) for not playing well makes sense. They might want to consider switching him and White, because the offense still struggles with him on the floor, at least with the SL. I actually advocated for White starting instead during the off-season, so the idea that him coming off the bench would be an issue with me is unfounded.

[DMC]

Interesting article.

I think it's more about "how" than "why" as "why" implies a purpose. If the purpose was to get a high draft pick, then sure. The "how" is by having a condition where the sum of the talent on the Spurs roster is no longer greater than the individual parts, because they don't have a synergy device named Manu Ginobili.

[venitian navigator]

Murray is significantly better than white... Being able to shoot doesn't automatically make someone better on offense... The chart that shows offensive and defensive contributions to a team has Murray and White pretty much equal on offense and Murray much better than him on defense

Murray is better as an athlete, is miles worst as a play maker...and that's an horrible fit with players like LMA and DDR that need slow paced game, time to play their one on one and for doing that they have to be given the ball in the right spots...something White was gelling at last season.
Murray is still a young deer and yes, he needs to improve in all aspects of his game (shooting, playmaking)...so the only reason to play him in the starting lineup is to give him time to develop his skills against the best players in the league...but, that's for sure, the outcome can't be good till ypour SL teammates are DDR and LMA for the reasons above said...for them White is certainly a better fit (as evidenced by last season outcome).

[duncan2k5]

It's the defense, stupid!


At Washington, IMO Murray was moved to the second unit due to his defensive struggles. Both him and White are doing a very poor job in defense and that's specially bad when they were supossed to lead the team from their position.
Popovich is looking for some defense, at least in the starting line-up. After the 1st quarter, Spurs are digging from 10-15 pts down every game. Murray wasn't helping at all so coach goes with plan B, which is 18-19 season plan: the 2 bigs line-up. Mills gets a spot as starter in order to balance the spacing and maybe as a message for DJ as well. DeJounte reacted well in Washington playing with energy again. He didn't execute very well in defense but at least he was visible on the court. I hope White's poor game is related to his injury and he can heal and play at his level again.

So far this season, DJ has shown lack of discipline and focus in most of defensive situations. He's been torched by small and fast guards but also by the big ones as well. At the beginning he was very active away from the ball so at least he helped defense disrupting opp.'s offense and deflecting the ball. Lately he hasn't contributed at all, not even rebounding.
White has been awful as well. He didn't start well but improved after some games. However he's been one of the most inconsistent players of the team during the losing streak.

They're young, and some tournovers or bad shots are accepted as part of their learning process. Though, they can't be distracted in defense, playing with no discipline, showing such lack of awareness into the defensive schemes. That's not acceptable. They're not rookies!
2019 Spurs rely too much in this two kids. Team is struggeling in defense because it's not getting what it needs from the two PGs. That's why we are having that much of Mills and Forbes, even starting now. Spurs need these two playing decent defense like you need water in the desert.




Rest of the team in defense:
No surprise on Gay playing terrible defense, he needs to score everything to avoid being an overall minus. Liles is limited but smart so he manages unless he has to guard an all-star. Not surprised either with Aldridge and Poetl inconsistency. Mills and DeRozan aren't great defenders but at least they try and they're not supossed to have a key role in that end.

Forbes' new status "no-defense-scorer" hurts the team HUGELY, he's not even trying to play defense: not being able of guarding anybody nor making a single effective help vs NBA starters. He makes some shots but it doesn't work like that to me. You barely can allow an All-star not playing defense in your team, no way you can allow it on a role player in starter minutes.




About Popovich and coaching:
We don't have enough information but it seems like the new assistant coaches group is not helping the team like Udoka and Messina did. Replacing these two for the rookie Hardy and our beloved but inexperienced Tim Duncan is having an impact in the team. It looks like there is no defensive game plan. Historically, Spurs defensive strategy correctly focused in opponents strenghts, gradually suffocating its offense as the game progressed. That's gone. Teams score 30+ 35+ points in the first quarters going to their plan A.

Defensive execution is very poor. Spurs defensive system hasn't change, they try the same covers in the regular offensive situations. Murray and White are regularly forgetting or missing what to do. Forbes and Gay are an absolute disaster, never ready to do what the team needs from them. The team defense looks inexistent or chaotic too often. Transition defense isn't being a problem as usual, which tells even more about positional defense.

Nobody out of the team understands why Belinelli keeps playing instead of Lonnie Walker IV. The last 3 times the kid had some minutes he had the perfect attitude and his play looked much better than his initial games.

Forbes' role in this team is absolutely overblown. Too many minutes, too many shots, too much importance for this little guy. He CAN'T be an NBA starter, he doesn't have the physical tools nor the talent. He has become a useful role player but our team doesn't need that much his shooting and points and it's dying because of his lack of defensive contribution. Teams are focusing their offense on him!

Our frontcourt needs phisicality, contact, agressiveness, pride, fight. Call it as you want. Please somebody go out there and play hard defense. Bigs are not even fouling. I don't think Carroll is a good defender but I'm sure he can help the team to be more assertive and let the opp feel they need to work if they want score.



I don't believe in tanking. I believe we should keep Murray, White and Walker and I don't think there is a decent trade in the market for Aldridge or DeRozan. The team must start play better defense because they have the personnel to do it. It's time for adjustments, decissions and to show what kind of professional anybody is. I blame coaches and key players 50%-50% for this situation but I believe there is still time to fix it.

Murray by far has the best defensive metrics on the team, and has been performing the best using the eye test...u guys simply overstate his mistakes and understate the ones from the vets ...but make no mistake...he is a good defender and our best one by a significant margin

[duncan2k5]

Murray is better as an athlete, is miles worst as a play maker...and that's an horrible fit with players like LMA and DDR that need slow paced game, time to play their one on one and for doing that they have to be given the ball in the right spots...something White was gelling at last season.
Murray is still a young deer and yes, he needs to improve in all aspects of his game (shooting, playmaking)...so the only reason to play him in the starting lineup is to give him time to develop his skills against the best players in the league...but, that's for sure, the outcome can't be good till ypour SL teammates are DDR and LMA for the reasons above said...for them White is certainly a better fit (as evidenced by last season outcome).

so u propose building around DDR and LMA simply to lose in the first round? makes no sense! trade them! get modern NBA players that compliment murray in the SL...that way he can reach his ceiling faster...he is more our future than freaking DDR and LMA

[timvp]

In a similar way to how you just did, you said then that I seemed really high on Murray if I thought he could command $25M apy. I explained then that Murray wasn't a bad player at all, but it was his off-court value that would give him a big boost. I still believe that would have been the case. So yeah, I didn't actually change my view on Murray. I love him off the court and am really rooting for his play to match that off-court value. But I don't think it has yet, and I think a lot of fans keep trying to make him seem like he's shown more than he has.


I've been considered a Murray shill and hater over the past couple months. My view on him has always been complicated. I've always liked him but not believed in him, if that makes sense.

https://i.imgur.com/ng15Y9K.gif

I somewhat understand where you're coming from and I'm not accusing you of changing your view, so that doesn't need to be a focus (my memory isn't good enough to hold you to any specifics, anyways), but: 1) Why would you advocate giving max dollars to a player you don't believe in? 2) Let me get this straight: You think he's a max player due to his off-court value? You talking leadership or something even less tangible than that? 3) You don't think his off-court value is diminished by being yo-yoed?

[timvp]

yo timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8) did this guy steal ur research bruh? why da fook does this keep happening to u bruh...........u really need a twitter bruh people r stealing ur work for clout & getting paid on twitter

1197742484253814784

Meh, I'm 99% sure I know that guy from real life and he posts on SpursTalk -- unless it's a guy with the same name who looks the same, tbh. No harm, no foul :tu

[Chinook]

https://i.imgur.com/ng15Y9K.gif

I somewhat understand where you're coming from and I'm not accusing you of changing your view, so that doesn't need to be a focus (my memory isn't good enough to hold you to any specifics, anyways), but: 1) Why would you advocate giving max dollars to a player you don't believe in? 2) Let me get this straight: You think he's a max player due to his off-court value? You talking leadership or something even less tangible than that? 3) You don't think his off-court value is diminished by being yo-yoed?

1) $25 Million APY isn't a max contract. Anyway, my stance wasn't that he'd deserve the money. I thought he'd command the money if he came in, was decent and the Spurs talked him up. Specifically, I thought another team would make or threaten to make an offer sheet the Spurs would have to match. They headed that off by signing him to an extension that I think even now we both consider to be a good contract.

2) When talking about "off-court value", I only kinda mean marketing. Yes, having a focal point for the team's PR department and a way to try to sell fans on tickets matters. But I also meant how he was in the locker room and on social media. I don't think his teammates like he less if he's benched for a game. I also don't think it sends a good message inside or outside the organization for Murray to make a lot of mistakes without being held accountable.

3) It really comes down to whether you think the benching was warranted strictly in terms of what he was doing on the court. If you don't think that, then the benching won't make sense regardless. If you (like me) think the team would play better with Murray in a smaller role unless/until he can play under more control that benching him made sense given the other starters, then I don't think the benching really hurts his value. My whole point with DJM and White is that those guys need to play like stars before we treat them like it. If he were consistently a guy who could get 15-18 points on decent efficiency (even without a three) and White were a guy who didn't inexplicably go into his shell and now apparently have major issues staying healthy, then I'd understand prioritizing them over guys who've legit established themselves as All-Stars. But they haven't and might well not, so I'm not making LMA and DeRozan trades with building around Murray and White in mind.

TD21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=908) actually said it best when he said that if the Spurs end up with a top pick that they shouldn't consider any position settled in terms of what prospect they'd want. I think a number of folks on this board at least disagree with the spirit of that idea. I don't believe anyone on the Spurs has played well enough to give me confidence that they are worth factoring into the draft board.

[JuneJive]

Well, they do draft talent before need.

[Chinook]

Well, they do draft talent before need.

Eh. Only to an extent. The way most good teams do it is by making a draft board and taking the highest available player when their picks comes. That is different from picking from pure talent in two major ways. The first is that need is part of setting up the board in the first place. If A and B are equal prospects but B plays at a position of need, they get the higher spot on the board. The second way is someone seen more in the NFL but still happens in the NBA. If the drafting team X is on the clock and the player at the top of their board plays at a position of strength, that could make them willing to trade out of their pick. In that same way, if player A is at a position of need and is at risk of not being around when X drafts, X might move up to get them.

I don't know for sure, but I do believe PATFO follows a similar idea to this. It's been a long time since they've drafted at a position where you were legit surprised. If they need a guard, they'll draft a guard. If they need wings, they'll take wings, and so on. I think most people would agree that the team needs a big in the draft, so taking a center seems like a strong possibility. If they tank and get the first pick, Wiseman might be the slam-dunk choice. But if he's off the board and the team is looking at the guard-heavy top of the mock draft, do they try to trade out because they already feel they have the position covered? Do they reach for the forwards or next available big? It happens.

[timvp]

Bump.

Pop going back to the original starting lineup :tu

[MultiTroll]

Bryn starting :cheer:pop::cheer

[DPG21920]

Hey, if it wasn’t broke, don’t bother fixing it amiright?

[cd021]

Byrn was awful again today, meanwhile Pop is starting to trust Lonnie more.

It's worth it to at least see if Murray, Walker, DDR, Lyle's and LMA can work as a unit.

[poopbox]

Every since Wiggins casually blocked one of Forbes shots like he was a child, Bryn has been terrible...

Well...more terrible than usual...

At least he is playing himself out of the rotation which was bound to happen since he isn't an nba level player...