Is Luka Doncic the NBA’s best player right now?

[DC23]

Consider the stats. 29.9 ppg, 10.4rpg, 9.7 assists per game. And without him, would the Mavericks be doing as well as they are?

Just going by what we’ve seen so far this season, we could declare he is the NBA’s best player. Then again, it’s so early that it may be too soon to make a call like that.

What do you think? Is he the best player in the NBA? Do we need more time to make that determination? If so, do you think his amazing performance is going to continue?

[lefty]

Better than MJ

[Texas_Ranger]

not best, but probably most important for his team right now. Mavs don't really have a #2 option that is consistent. Porzingis did have some good games, but he's still not looking that great. Thats why the guy should also be an MVP if Dallas makes it to 47-50 wins. LeBron, Giannis and Harden all have superstars next to them, while this kid is doing this stuff in his second year at 20 years old pretty much with a bunch of role players.

Mavs next 4 games will show how good they are. (HOU, LAC, PHX, LAL) If in this 4 games Luka averages something like 25,8 & 8 it would be amazing.

[endrity]

I'd be happy with Top 5 right now.

[horseshue]

He is not the best player, but might be, in not so distant future. Still, this thread is gonna age better than the one claiming he is a bust.

[Jules_Winnfield]

Bran, Giannis, Doncic and Harden in no order are clear top 4 so far..

[LkrFan]

No, but he is top 10.

Let's not dismiss the fact that he can't guard a broken chair right now. I specifically remember the Kang seeking him out specifically during critical times of the Lakers double digit come from behind win over the Mavs in Dallas. I'm sure other teams do the same to him.

But, offensively, he's dominant. Real dominant. So dominant that I still got him top 10 already.

The worst part is people will want to play with him and Unicorn for years to come. He's that good.

[DMC]

No it has to be Curry. He was ballin' before his untimely injury. He showed he didn't need those other guys.

[Yogatti]

He should get MVP.

[apalisoc_9]

depends how he plays in playoffs.

I wont rank him over the lower end top 10s. George, Jokic, Embiid until this run is proven in the playoffs

[apalisoc_9]

Consider the stats. 29.9 ppg, 10.4rpg, 9.7 assists per game. And without him, would the Mavericks be doing as well as they are?

Just going by what we’ve seen so far this season, we could declare he is the NBA’s best player. Then again, it’s so early that it may be too soon to make a call like that.

What do you think? Is he the best player in the NBA? Do we need more time to make that determination? If so, do you think his amazing performance is going to continue?

its 15 games in. Kawhi just crushed the world and Lebron still plays.

:lmao

Vanilla fans :lmao

is your skintone pink?

[Clipper Nation]

Bran, Giannis, Doncic and Harden in no order are clear top 4 so far..

Frauden's not top 4 until he starts playing basketball instead of refball.

[Clipper Nation]

LeBron, Giannis and Harden all have superstars next to them

Giannis does not have a superstar next to him, let's be real now. Middleton is good, but he's an all-star at best.

[MultiTroll]

Frauden's not top 4 until he starts playing basketball instead of refball.
Patrick Beverly rung up for a flopping foul vs Frauden.
Fucking Stern Jr. is subzero integrity.

[MultiTroll]

Haters.
If anyone on Your Team was doing triple doubles on the regular and only lost to LAL because team mates and coach Jim Careys sub zero BBIQ end of game play you be slobbing all over.

But yes, legit points off for defense.

[AaronY]

I dunno lets consult the forum expert FkLA

[FrostKing]

Saw highlights of Lebron doing his very best to 3point chuck the Lakers to a lose in Memphis.

[Texas_Ranger]

Giannis does not have a superstar next to him, let's be real now. Middleton is good, but he's an all-star at best.

true, but Middleton and Bledsoe are still better than anything Luka has, at least until Porzingis gets back to playing like an All-star.

[LkrFan]

I dunno lets consult the forum expert FkLA

:lol

[Dirks_Finale]

I dunno lets consult the forum expert FkLA
Lol

[Laker_1995]

This nugga Luka is fucking unbelievable. Nigga was crossing up the whole damn team

[TimDunkem]

40 pts, 10 ast, 6 reb and absolutely dismantled the Rockets. Wow.

[koriwhat]

40 pts, 10 ast, 6 reb and absolutely dismantled the Rockets. Wow.

he fucked my fantasy team up!!! damnit luka!

[Robz4000]

true, but Middleton and Bledsoe are still better than anything Luka has, at least until Porzingis gets back to playing like an All-star.

Bledsoe fucking sucks and Middleton has hardly played this season due to injury.

[anon]

Who in this league will be the IT to Doncic's Jordan? Who will play the Kawhi role to Doncic's Lebron? Will it be Mattise Thybulle? Will Covington step up? Or someone yet to enter the league?

[Texas_Ranger]

Bledsoe fucking sucks and Middleton has hardly played this season due to injury.

Bledsoe is nothing special, but so far has been more consistent than Porzingis and Middleton did play in 10 out of 16 games. Also I expect Giannis to play like he is playing even without Middleton. On other hand, no one expected the Mavs to be this good and Luka fucking everyone in his second season.

[anon]

^I did bruh, I expected Doncic to up his game to carry the Mavs to a playoff berth after an nba season's worth of conditioning. I would guess the equivalent of non-vanilla posters in the Mavs forum would have also called it. I also expect an mvp trophy within the next two seasons.

[Texas_Ranger]

^I did bruh, I expected Doncic to up his game to carry the Mavs to a playoff berth after an nba season's worth of conditioning. I would guess the equivalent of non-vanilla posters in the Mavs forum would have also called it. I also expect an mvp trophy within the next two seasons.

yea i could also see them be 8th seed, but him averaging 30, 10 and 10 no one saw coming.

[swrowe78]

I don't know if he's the best. Have to see how he does in the playoffs. But I think he's the mvp 16 games in. Not many expected the Mavs to make the playoffs. But they're sitting 3rd in the western conference right now. And Luka is putting up monster numbers. Lebron has AD, Giannis is playing in a much weaker conference and Harden's Rockets record not that good. So 16 game in, my MVP is Luka.

[anon]

[double post]

[anon]

yea i could also see them be 8th seed, but him averaging 30, 10 and 10 no one saw coming.
It's his 3ball that ups his ppg. What did Dirk average for his sophomore year? His era didn't value the 3ball as much. Both of them were euroleague mvps. Also, Westbrook manufactured a triple-double season which the league then rewarded with a player award. That gave younger stars who wanted that level of acclaim and contract bonuses a blueprint to follow.

[Clipper Nation]

Anyone paying attention since his Euroleague days knew the greatness that Doncic was about to bring to the league, tbh.

[swrowe78]

It's his 3ball that ups his ppg. What did Dirk average for his sophomore year? His era didn't value the 3ball as much. Both of them were euroleague mvps. Also, Westbrook manufactured a triple-double season which the league then rewarded with a player award. That gave younger stars who wanted that level of acclaim and contract bonuses a blueprint to follow.
It's not just the 3ball increasing players ppg this era. Pacing has gone up meaning more possessions and more rebounds available. Big men are also on the perimeter more than ever before meaning there are more uncontested rebounds for guards. There's a reason triple-doubles have skyrocketed this era. And it's not because players have gotten better. Softer defense and 3ball increases their ppg and pacing and big men at the perimeter allows more uncontested rebounds.

[Chris Fall]

Maybe not best just yet. But I’d put him on the short list of guys I’d put in the conversation. Bron, Freak, Klaw. Doncic has already put himself in that category. A consistent season and playoff performance playing this well would probably cement it. But I don’t have a huge gripe with anyone already thinking he’s the best, or in the group of handful of guys who should be considered. He’s certainly played like it so far this year.

[DMC]

Luka = the real Arn

[TimDunkem]

Stats are inflated in today's NBA, but he's as skilled as anyone else. Top 5 player for sure.

[teddygreen]

The guy is scary good...

[313]

If you're starting a team today, because of his age he's by far the no brainer pick. However, I'd say Bron, Kawhi, and Giannis (and Healthy KD), are better because of experience. Being a top 5 player at 20 though is pretty insane. I don't imagine more than a couple 20 year olds have ever had any stretch of games with a 30+ PER, and here is Luka with a 33 PER 16 games into the season. :reading

[313]

Doncic is a generational talent, regardless of location, but I think competing professionally from such a young age definitely accounts for some of the poise and composure he plays with for his age. Even more reason to dismantle the NCAA/AAU stranglehold on talent and let kids start competing professionally early.

[apalisoc_9]

Doncic is a generational talent, regardless of location, but I think competing professionally from such a young age definitely accounts for some of the poise and composure he plays with for his age. Even more reason to dismantle the NCAA/AAU stranglehold on talent and let kids start competing professionally early.

Ive never seen anyone run the pick and roll as good as doncic.

Not curry, not harden, not lebron, not durant, not kawhi, not giannis..

He might be the best player ive ever seen run the pnR since Nash.

[Capt Bringdown]

Reminds me of Bird, Magic and Stockton. Seems to be mentally 10 steps ahead of everyone else on the court.
Fun to watch

[Fat Brandon Bass]

I know I'll probably get :loled at this one, but he's basically a mix of CP3, Harden, and Larry Bird. The ability to stop and go in the Pick and Roll reminds of CP3. The way he finishes in the lane/stepback 3 is Harden-esque and that post-up, non-athletic fadeaway reminds you of Bird

[spurraider21]

its 15 games in. Kawhi just crushed the world and Lebron still plays.

:lmao

Vanilla fans :lmao

is your skintone pink?
:lmao siakam over lebron

[apalisoc_9]

:lmao siakam over lebron

siakam over lebron at the 10 game mark. He was a beast and still is a beast. People sleeping.

Siakam has easily been one of the 5 best nba player so far.

[endrity]

It's his 3ball that ups his ppg. What did Dirk average for his sophomore year? His era didn't value the 3ball as much. Both of them were euroleague mvps. Also, Westbrook manufactured a triple-double season which the league then rewarded with a player award. That gave younger stars who wanted that level of acclaim and contract bonuses a blueprint to follow.

Actually Dirk and Luka's European experiences couldn't be much different, and explain why it took Dirk 2-3 years to resemble the player he would later become.

Dirk was playing in Germany, a country not know for basketball traditionally, in the country's second division, for his hometown team. At 19 years old he had barely left his home, and only became famous when he exploded at the Nike Hoops summit in 1998 - the US v. World High School game. He never played in Germany's first Division, let alone the Euroleague. Essentially, he has no ties to European club basketball.

Luka was born and raised in Slovenia, a former member of Yugoslavia, the hotbed of European basketball talent. At 12 he was already a well-known prodigy, and left to play in Real Madrid's acadamy - one of the continent's largest cities and with one of the leading clubs as well. He has played professionally since 16 in the highest level outside the NBA.

Essentially Dirk was a homesick boy when he came to Dallas who had only played against local plumbers and farmers (joking a bit, but you get the idea), while Luka has been living the life of a professional athlete for years.

But I agree with you on the pace argument, that is why the per game statistics have taken off. PER, Hollinger's advanced statistic, does factor for pace though and it's probably a better stat to use for comparisons between eras.

[lefty]

I know I'll probably get :loled at this one, but he's basically a mix of CP3, Harden, and Larry Bird. The ability to stop and go in the Pick and Roll reminds of CP3. The way he finishes in the lane/stepback 3 is Harden-esque and that post-up, non-athletic fadeaway reminds you of Bird

Fair comparison

[Texas_Ranger]

when you start comparing him to 10 different players it just shows you that he's none of them and that he's just Luka.

if I'd had to pick one guy, it would be Joe Johnson.

[Fat Brandon Bass]

when you start comparing him to 10 different players it just shows you that he's none of them and that he's just Luka.

if I'd had to pick one guy, it would be Joe Johnson.

well yeah, but still fun regardless

[Clipper Nation]

I know I'll probably get :loled at this one, but he's basically a mix of CP3, Harden, and Larry Bird.

I don't agree with any of those comparisons, tbh. Luka is clutch, plays basketball instead of refball, and is going up against real athletes (not plumbers and C-SPAN anchors).

[Fat Brandon Bass]

I don't agree with any of those comparisons, tbh. Luka is clutch, plays basketball instead of refball, and is going up against real athletes (not plumbers and C-SPAN anchors).

:lol

I get that you don't like CP3, but if you're gonna rail against CP3 for "choking" in the playoffs then I don't know how you can call Luka clutch already when he's yet to even play in a playoff game

[spurraider21]

I know I'll probably get :loled at this one, but he's basically a mix of CP3, Harden, and Larry Bird. The ability to stop and go in the Pick and Roll reminds of CP3. The way he finishes in the lane/stepback 3 is Harden-esque and that post-up, non-athletic fadeaway reminds you of Bird
he's approaching roddy beaubois territory

[FrostKing]

https://i.ibb.co/xqDvvWb/Screenshot-2019-11-25-11-24-40-1.png

Slovenian GF. As long as he avoids American women, skys the limit

[FkLA]

:lmao best player
:lol Top 5

[apalisoc_9]

:lmao best player
:lol Top 5

he can be top 5.

Granted even Jokic had a crazy run last year.

As it stands i dont know why anyone would think hes top 10..ie better than Jokic, embiid etc in a 16 game sample size

[Neo.]

:lmao best player
:lol Top 5

thought you were done and gone for the year you crybaby faggot

[Arcadian]

He's clearly in the conversation. Just look at his numbers and team record.

You obviously can't crown someone less than 20 games into a season, but it's possible he could be an MVP candidate if he were to continue as he is currently going.

[Texas_Ranger]

tonight will be a good test vs the Clippers.

[i'm_still_beta]

Right now he is top 3, what's funny about that? But I doubt that he'd become great defender

[Texas_Ranger]

he is actualy a good defender vs players his size. When he guard smaller guys he has problems. He's also not that concentrated on defense, but that will get better.

[koriwhat]

he's definitely a special player... i'm no player fan but it's not hard to see the talent this kid has.

[MultiTroll]

Was getting there but then got porky.

How bout dis?:
Luka Doncic said incorporating more cardio and weight training into his routine helped him improve his athletic performance (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddrink/foodnews/luka-doncic-said-incorporating-more-cardio-and-weight-training-into-his-routine-helped-him-improve-his-athletic-performance/ar-AAUujPv?ocid=msedgntp)

[Texas_Ranger]

a fat, non athletic and out of form Luka was still better than 95% of the league. I'd feel pretty sad if I worked out all summer long, just to get fucked by this fatso.
And yea, if he gets in shape he'd be a much bigger problem. Also, should be leading the MVP voting by a lot actually. That team is dog shit and he has them 5th.

[Chris Fall]

Actually, I think the taller, fatter version of Luka is the best player in the league, Jokic. I think he's the best player in the league and by a good margin. Plus, he plays defense now too. He's not a great defender and won't get a bunch of highlight reel blocks. But he's improved to the point that he's not only not a liability on defense, he's actually a plus defender.

He does pretty much everything Luka does but better. Better passer, better shooter, better post up, more efficient. And he's bigger. And while he has the ball in his hands a lot, he doesn't need to be ball dominant to be effective.

I imagine Jokic is a lot like the stories of what Arvydas Sabonis was in his prime in Europe.

[lefty]

Jokic is fantastic

[MultiTroll]

https://i.ibb.co/xqDvvWb/Screenshot-2019-11-25-11-24-40-1.png

Slovenian GF. As long as he avoids American women, skys the limit
Was 2019.
Update 2022?

[Neo.]

interesting how a solid but non-star player like dinwiddie has opened things up so immensely for luka, and now hes not forced into chucking 12 bad shots a game while double teamed simply because his team is so offensively inept. now he can actually pass out of traps and doubles and feel some level of confidence that his teammate is capable of making the right play, instead of having to reset the play every time he gets trapped

would sure be interesting to see how the team would do if they could simply have a quality starting center

[Killakobe81]

Told y’all there is some Bird in his game.
Yes style wise he a Pierce m/Harden hybrid
But when it comes to being a great passer and rebounder …check
Grapefruit cajones check
Creative scorer who you can’t stop from getting to his spots check
Bird the better shooter and tougher player
Luka got the better handle and a tick more athleticism
Not sure why people fight the comparison because apparently it’s the cool thing now to compare white players to black ones
If that makes you happy I see a touch of Magic too

Btw his gf is hot as balls why would he need an American skank?!

[Neo.]

the best thing going for him is he already has three unguardable shots that he hits at a dangerous rate (all at difference ranges, and exploit different types of defenders), the floater, the fadeaway, and the step back three. few great players even have one consistent unguardable shot, and he already has three which all compliment each other. it's amazing.

if he works on 1) getting in better shape, 2) hitting his FTs at a higher clip, and 3) not getting bothered by refs and trash talk, he will unquestionably be the best player in the NBA

[lefty]

Jokic is closer to Bird than Doncic when it comes to passing tbh

[Neo.]

birds best passing was generally him whizzing no look passes out of the post, or in transition. Luka does that as well as anyone today, but his strength is in manipulating defenses. hes more like LeBron in that regard, he sees how openings develop before defenses can react to it.

tbh if he didn't have two centers with stone hands and bad IQ, Luka could easily get an extra 2-3 assists per game

[MultiTroll]

^ 5+ more assists with centers with better hands and shooting.
Of course if he had better shooters it may also cut down on his assists, especially if said bigs could create their own shot.

Finney-whatever and Hardaway Jr are just chuck city. Occassionally they are on. Finney a net neg big time.
Another Cuban flop.

[Neo.]

^ 5+ more assists with centers with better hands and shooting.
Of course if he had better shooters it may also cut down on his assists, especially if said bigs could create their own shot.

Finney-whatever and Hardaway Jr are just chuck city. Occassionally they are on. Finney a net neg big time.
Another Cuban flop.

um finney isnt a chucker at all. he was an undrafted player that has developed into a starting quality glue guy for a reasonable price. not sure how thats a flop at all.

but hardaway is definitely useless unless hes hitting, his contract is definitely a flop

[Texas_Ranger]

He needs another great shooter. I already said, Klay would be a perfect teammate for him. He does not need a big that puts up big numbers, just one that can finish alley oops and sets good picks. The fact that Dallas is 4/5th is also a miracle and him not being a top 3 MVP candidate just shows you american jouros are stupid as fuck. People still having Ja over him, cause he can jump high, even tho Mempshis plays better without him. Put Luka out of Dallas and they win 15 games in a season.

[lefty]

The addition of Spencer Dindindin should take some pressure off Luka

[TD 21]

No. It's between Jokic and Antetokounmpo, with Embiid next. He's got an argument to headline the next tier with Durant, James and Curry.

[Killakobe81]

That nutmeg pass he did tonight sure looked like Larry Legend to me …

[monosylab1k]

That nutmeg pass he did tonight sure looked like Larry Legend to me …

lol please post all the Larry Bird career nutmegs. They are not even remotely similar in style. Just admit you made a generic “white guy is the same as other white guy” comparison, and feel good that Shaq or Kendrick Perkins or whoever validated your dumb take.

[monosylab1k]

But when it comes to being a great passer and rebounder …check

Magic Johnson and Russell Westbrook, both high assist & rebound point guards with questionable outside shooting…..hey they must be exactly alike!

[Killakobe81]

lol please post all the Larry Bird career nutmegs. They are not even remotely similar in style. Just admit you made a generic “white guy is the same as other white guy” comparison, and feel good that Shaq or Kendrick Perkins or whoever validated your dumb take.

Talk about generic and basic … because it was between his opponents leg .. and MAYBE Bird did not do the same that means there is no similarity in how they use their passing to make someone look silly?
I already stylistic wise said he is more harden/pierce with a dash of Manu …
But Luka has shown flashes of being more than any of those 3 and when he does those things; a creative pass or a trick shot it reminds me more of bird than anyone else. I saw bird a lot from 84 to about 89 not sure how much you saw but for me it’s more about his feel more than his skin tone. If you can’t see that or don’t want to … that’s on you. And I never said he was a carbon copy like Kobe mimicking MJ.

[Killakobe81]

https://youtu.be/baBdnA7cui0

lol please post all the Larry Bird career nutmegs. They are not even remotely similar in style. Just admit you made a generic “white guy is the same as other white guy” comparison, and feel good that Shaq or Kendrick Perkins or whoever validated your dumb take.

[Killakobe81]

Hey mono I saw 1 (nutmeg on sikma) in the first three minutes with a quick YouTube search asshole!

[Killakobe81]

Btw as great as a passer as Luka is Bird passes are better he and magic have better vision Than LeBron or Luka … at least Mono and his dumb ass posts gave me a reminder on how nice Larry passing was

[Neo.]

gotta love that 80s footage where videos are sped up to make plays look more fast and impressive than they actually were

[monosylab1k]

Talk about generic and basic … because it was between his opponents leg .. and MAYBE Bird did not do the same that means there is no similarity in how they use their passing to make someone look silly?
I already stylistic wise said he is more harden/pierce with a dash of Manu …
But Luka has shown flashes of being more than any of those 3 and when he does those things; a creative pass or a trick shot it reminds me more of bird than anyone else. I saw bird a lot from 84 to about 89 not sure how much you saw but for me it’s more about his feel more than his skin tone. If you can’t see that or don’t want to … that’s on you. And I never said he was a carbon copy like Kobe mimicking MJ.



https://youtu.be/baBdnA7cui0


Hey mono I saw 1 (nutmeg on sikma) in the first three minutes with a quick YouTube search asshole!


Btw as great as a passer as Luka is Bird passes are better he and magic have better vision Than LeBron or Luka … at least Mono and his dumb ass posts gave me a reminder on how nice Larry passing was

:lmao 4 consecutive posting meltdown because you got your feelings hurt over being so wrong :lmao

[Killakobe81]

Deflecting when you are wrong … mature.

[Neo.]

Btw as great as a passer as Luka is Bird passes are better he and magic have better vision Than LeBron or Luka

not sure where you see this. pretty much any pass i have seen one of them make, i would say all of them would make. i dont look at any of their highlights and say "oh larry would never see that pass" or "lebron would totally have missed that". they are all basically on an even level when it comes to passing and vision, which is among the greatest ever. there is a much lower ceiling on the skill of passing/vision, compared to something like scoring.

[monosylab1k]

Deflecting when you are wrong … mature.

:lmao resorting to “I know you are but what am I?” because your comparison is so bad.

[DMC]

Luka reminds me more of a mid career Boris Diaw. Today we celebrate Boris Diaw, the genius.

[DMC]

not sure where you see this. pretty much any pass i have seen one of them make, i would say all of them would make. i dont look at any of their highlights and say "oh larry would never see that pass" or "lebron would totally have missed that". they are all basically on an even level when it comes to passing and vision, which is among the greatest ever. there is a much lower ceiling on the skill of passing/vision, compared to something like scoring.

Manu was a more creative passer than either of them.

[Neo.]

Manu was a more creative passer than either of them.

more nutmegs. neat.

[MultiTroll]

Manu was a more creative passer than either of them.
8 turnovers in the 2013 Game 6 Championship giveaway.

[Killakobe81]

:lmao resorting to “I know you are but what am I?” because your comparison is so bad.

You the one arguing against another person’s comparison, which is subjective.
You asked for a clip of Bird doing a nutmeg pass I found one in less than 5 minutes.
You were wrong so you are going at me which is hilarious … I see something as do others that you don’t it happens.
Just say you still disagree despite the visual evidence You asked for … fine.
I apologize for the asshole comment though you were acting like one.

[monosylab1k]

You the one arguing against another person’s comparison, which is subjective.
You asked for a clip of Bird doing a nutmeg pass I found one in less than 5 minutes.
You were wrong so you are going at me which is hilarious … I see something as do others that you don’t it happens.
Just say you still disagree despite the visual evidence You asked for … fine.
I apologize for the asshole comment though you were acting like one.

“He nutmeg’d once, therefore Luka=Bird” :lmao what a stupid, simplistic way to think. If you insist on comparing a white guy to Larry Bird, the clear comparison is Jokic. Their passing styles are way more similar than Luka’s is.

If you watch Luka and watch Bird and think there’s a bunch of similarity to their games, you either watch the game at a child’s level, or you just see “derrrr white guys!” which would make sense if you get your basketball takes from Kendrick Perkins or Screamin A Smith.

[Neo.]

the main similarities of Luka and bird other than the obvious, is they both have an ability to get physical to hit tough midrange shots, and their general ability to use moves and footwork to create something out of nothing despite being athletically inferior to most elite scorers

but their approach and play style are very different. Luka is a point guard with the ability to dominate in the post. bird was a dominant high post forward with some point guard skills.

[TD 21]

the main similarities of Luka and bird other than the obvious, is they both have an ability to get physical to hit tough midrange shots, and their general ability to use moves and footwork to create something out of nothing despite being athletically inferior to most elite scorers

but their approach and play style are very different. Luka is a point guard with the ability to dominate in the post. bird was a dominant high post forward with some point guard skills.

Why is Doncic a PG but James isn't? Not sure how much time Johnson spent defending PG's, but if it wasn't much (my guess is Scott/Cooper mostly did), same thing.

There's no way Doncic should be being compared to small guards like Young and Morant. Of course he's better or less of a liability in a myriad of areas just on sheer size/strength.

[Neo.]

Why is Doncic a PG but James isn't? Not sure how much time Johnson spent defending PG's, but if it wasn't much (my guess is Scott/Cooper mostly did), same thing.

There's no way Doncic should be being compared to small guards like Young and Morant. Of course he's better or less of a liability in a myriad of areas just on sheer size/strength.

the same reason Timmy was a "power forward" yet would be the guy defending and being defended by Shaq, yao, bynum, etc...

[KobesAchilles]

Luka is the best player in the NBA. Or Giannis. I could argue either one. And fuck Jokic. He’s good but he’s not best player good. Would love to see a series between the two teams though.

[Killakobe81]

the main similarities of Luka and bird other than the obvious, is they both have an ability to get physical to hit tough midrange shots, and their general ability to use moves and footwork to create something out of nothing despite being athletically inferior to most elite scorers

but their approach and play style are very different. Luka is a point guard with the ability to dominate in the post. bird was a dominant high post forward with some point guard skills.
mono what he said here is pretty much what I said … it’s about feel, the ability to get to spots etc. Jokic maybe more like Bird passing style wise … but Bird moves better than Jokic which is why I think the Bird comparison fits better. Again I never said Bird/Luka were identical , multiple times I’m compared Luka to a mix of Harden Pierce and Manu but you ignore that to post this crap.

Neo nice job of articulation on the comparison.

[lefty]

8 turnovers in the 2013 Game 6 Championship giveaway.

Magic also screwed up and had terrible turnovers during the 1984 Finals

[Texas_Ranger]

I have no idea why is anyone even comparing Luka to Bird.. well other than cause they are white, which is a retarded reason... Anyway, Luka is clearly a non athletic LeBron.

[monosylab1k]

I have no idea why is anyone even comparing Luka to Bird.. well other than cause they are white, which is a retarded reason... Anyway, Luka is clearly a non athletic LeBron.

Exactly this, he’s LeBron/Harden with a splash of Manu. His style is very much “take control of the game tempo by brute force, manipulate the defense into giving you the look you want, and then pounce”.

Bird/Jokic are much more of the “operate within the natural flow of the game, read and react to what the defense gives you” style of play.

It's why you constantly hear that Bird/Jokic can “quietly” dominate games while only putting up 16/8/5 or something like that, while if LeBron/Luka put up that line, everyone would wonder why they played so poorly. Neither style is better, they’re just different.

[JamStone]

I’m a huge fan of both Luka and Jokic. I got both in my personal current top 3 favorite players. And I agree for the most part with the distinction above. But I also think that distinction is what impresses me more about Jokic. He doesn’t need to dominate the ball. I mean, he has the ball in his hands plenty. But he doesn’t need it in his hands all of the time to make his impact. He lets Morris and Barton share in the playmaking, even does the dirty work like setting screens and crashing the offensive boards. But his impact is still there even when he’s not statistically dominant, which oh by the way is rare regardless. He’s still usually in the neighborhood of 25/10/10 even when he doesn’t dominate the action.

It’s not to say that Luka or guys like LeBron or Harden are not great or not impressive in their own right. But they dominate the ball so much, you expect big statistical production.

[lefty]

I have no idea why is anyone even comparing Luka to Bird.. well other than cause they are white, which is a retarded reason... Anyway, Luka is clearly a non athletic LeBron.


Exactly this, he’s LeBron/Harden with a splash of Manu. His style is very much “take control of the game tempo by brute force, manipulate the defense into giving you the look you want, and then pounce”.

Bird/Jokic are much more of the “operate within the natural flow of the game, read and react to what the defense gives you” style of play.

It's why you constantly hear that Bird/Jokic can “quietly” dominate games while only putting up 16/8/5 or something like that, while if LeBron/Luka put up that line, everyone would wonder why they played so poorly. Neither style is better, they’re just different.


I’m a huge fan of both Luka and Jokic. I got both in my personal current top 3 favorite players. And I agree for the most part with the distinction above. But I also think that distinction is what impresses me more about Jokic. He doesn’t need to dominate the ball. I mean, he has the ball in his hands plenty. But he doesn’t need it in his hands all of the time to make his impact. He lets Morris and Barton share in the playmaking, even does the dirty work like setting screens and crashing the offensive boards. But his impact is still there even when he’s not statistically dominant, which oh by the way is rare regardless. He’s still usually in the neighborhood of 25/10/10 even when he doesn’t dominate the action.

It’s not to say that Luka or guys like LeBron or Harden are not great or not impressive in their own right. But they dominate the ball so much, you expect big statistical production.

My nuggahs

[Killakobe81]

Exactly this, he’s LeBron/Harden with a splash of Manu. His style is very much “take control of the game tempo by brute force, manipulate the defense into giving you the look you want, and then pounce”.

Bird/Jokic are much more of the “operate within the natural flow of the game, read and react to what the defense gives you” style of play.

It's why you constantly hear that Bird/Jokic can “quietly” dominate games while only putting up 16/8/5 or something like that, while if LeBron/Luka put up that line, everyone would wonder why they played so poorly. Neither style is better, they’re just different.

The irony of this post, is I have made both comparisons in the previous Luka thread.
I have said the Bron with less athleticism…
And I made the hybrid Harden/Pierce/Manu stylistic in one of my responses over the weekend and those are two of the guys you mentioned above, so obviously we agree on most of it.
I’m not gonna repeat myself for those that can’t comprehend the parts of his game that does remind me of Bird since I know most here never saw Larry play in his prime.
And fir the record I don’t watch ESPN anymore their coverage has been trash. So what perk or SAS has no bearing on me.

[lefty]

I'll make this simple

Luka is Luka, Larry is Larry, Jokic is Jokic, Demar is Jordan, Magic is Magic and Lebron and Lebron

Equation solved

[TD 21]

the same reason Timmy was a "power forward" yet would be the guy defending and being defended by Shaq, yao, bynum, etc...

Except Duncan primarily defended "power forwards" from '97-'06, which is why he's rightly referred to as the greatest PF of all time.

[Neo.]

Except Duncan primarily defended "power forwards" from '97-'06, which is why he's rightly referred to as the greatest PF of all time.

lmao no

would basically never guard dirk was a prime example, because 1 he got raped by dirk and 2 it would negate his strengths, which was playing as the center on defense

[TD 21]

lmao no

would basically never guard dirk was a prime example, because 1 he got raped by dirk and 2 it would negate his strengths, which was playing as the center on defense

:lmao Yes.

Nowitzki comprises one player and he also basically never guarded Duncan because he'd put his weak ass in the rim.

[Neo.]

:lmao Yes.

Nowitzki comprises one player and he also basically never guarded Duncan because he'd put his weak ass in the rim.

:lmao thinking he wasn't the primary guy guarding low post scorers like Shaq, and providing the majority of the paint defense

[TD 21]

:lmao thinking he wasn't the primary guy guarding low post scorers like Shaq, and providing the majority of the paint defense

:lmao Lack of reading comprehension. My point about Doncic is, if he doesn't defend PG's, then how can he be called one when James, who he's most similar to, isn't?

Duncan was a C who primarily defended PF's for his first 9 seasons, which is why he's both the GOAT PF and one of the GOAT C's.

[Killakobe81]

Not saying player or coaches are more knowledgeable but those that dismiss the Luka comp here like its crazy ... its not just Perk or SAS

Cedric Maxwell ... Luka Doncic continues to impress in his young career and is now getting comparisons to Hall of Famers. "You can quote me: This is Larry Bird reincarnated," Cedric Maxwell told Marc Stein of the New York Times.While Maxwell isn't the first to make this connection. The 11-year NBA veteran and current radio broadcaster won two titles alongside the legendary player and thinks Doncic has the same skill set. "This would be Larry Bird of the 2020s," Maxwell said, "exactly how he would play now."

Rick Carlisle (the coach many on here argued was top 3 along with Pop and Spo) - He knows where everybody is not only on offense, but defense," Carlisle told reporters after the game, per Bleacher Report's Blake Schuster. "That's the sign of a savant-type guy. I've played with Larry Bird, he could see everything like that. I had the privilege of coaching Jason Kidd ... Luka is in that same mold."

[Neo.]

:lmao Lack of reading comprehension. My point about Doncic is, if he doesn't defend PG's, then how can he be called one when James, who he's most similar to, isn't?

Duncan was a C who primarily defended PF's for his first 9 seasons, which is why he's both the GOAT PF and one of the GOAT C's.

:lmao he defended PFs early on by default in order to play him and admiral together. but everyone knew he was truly a center.

hilarious how spurfan still gets so butthurt over this, because they know he wouldn't be considered the goat C :rollin

[TD 21]

:lmao he defended PFs early on by default in order to play him and admiral together. but everyone knew he was truly a center.

hilarious how spurfan still gets so butthurt over this, because they know he wouldn't be considered the goat C :rollin

:lmao Again, poor reading comprehension.

I said as much. Stop trying to force your predetermined narrative. All I'm saying is, despite what he naturally was, he still technically primarily defended the position he's widely regarded to be the GOAT at for the majority of his prime. Doncic doesn't do that.

[Dirks_Finale]

:lmao Again, poor reading comprehension.

I said as much. Stop trying to force your predetermined narrative. All I'm saying is, despite what he naturally was, he still technically primarily defended the position he's widely regarded to be the GOAT at for the majority of his prime. Doncic doesn't do that.

It's what he does here. Straw man to death. Defeat an argument that people aren't even making. :lol

Then comes the Ad hominem.

Logical fallacy after logical fallacy.

[Neo.]

:lmao Again, poor reading comprehension.

I said as much. Stop trying to force your predetermined narrative. All I'm saying is, despite what he naturally was, he still technically primarily defended the position he's widely regarded to be the GOAT at for the majority of his prime. Doncic doesn't do that.

:lmao except that he actually does guard opposing PGs frequently. but then when matched up against elite scorers like steph or trae, then of course hes not going to be defending them, especially when there are better qualified defenders to handle it. not sure how this is some revelation to you.

and since when did basketball positions become defined by who you defend? its literally always been first and foremost based on their offensive role. why is a point guard called a point guard? because they are the "point" man, in that they run the offense. why is the shooting guard called a shooting guard? because their role is primarily to be a scoring threat by shooting the basketball.

luka runs the offense literally more than any player in the league, i dont get how anyone could be confused whatsoever by him being called the point guard :rollin

whatever people want to call lebron is another story. but asking why luka is called a PG because lebron isnt is literally completely irrelevant because luka 100% is a point guard. the real question is, why isn't lebron considered a PG?


It's what he does here. Straw man to death. Defeat an argument that people aren't even making. :lol

Then comes the Ad hominem.

Logical fallacy after logical fallacy.

coming from a guy who literally gets crapped on by every poster for being a retard who thinks hes intelligent :rollin

[TD 21]

:lmao except that he actually does guard opposing PGs frequently. but then when matched up against elite scorers like steph or trae, then of course hes not going to be defending them, especially when there are better qualified defenders to handle it. not sure how this is some revelation to you.

and since when did basketball positions become defined by who you defend? its literally always been first and foremost based on their offensive role. why is a point guard called a point guard? because they are the "point" man, in that they run the offense. why is the shooting guard called a shooting guard? because their role is primarily to be a scoring threat by shooting the basketball.

luka runs the offense literally more than any player in the league, i dont get how anyone could be confused whatsoever by him being called the point guard :rollin

whatever people want to call lebron is another story. but asking why luka is called a PG because lebron isnt is literally completely irrelevant because luka 100% is a point guard. the real question is, why isn't lebron considered a PG?



coming from a guy who literally gets crapped on by every poster for being a retard who thinks hes intelligent :rollin

Pre Brunson starting, they lacked a starter suited to defending small guards.

:lmao Positions have long been defined by who you're primarily suited to defend because offensively roles are determined by skill sets, not physical stature. There's been numerous "PG's" who don't run the offense (Fisher, Chalmers, Beverley, etc.) and plenty of bigs who did and do, even if they generally didn't bring the ball up.

My point was more so about how Doncic and James should be similarly classified to begin with.

[Neo.]

Pre Brunson starting, they lacked a starter suited to defending small guards.

:lmao Positions have long been defined by who you're primarily suited to defend because offensively roles are determined by skill sets, not physical stature. There's been numerous "PG's" who don't run the offense (Fisher, Chalmers, Beverley, etc.) and plenty of bigs who did and do, even if they generally didn't bring the ball up.

My point was more so about how Doncic and James should be similarly classified to begin with.

yes positions generally come with certain expectations when it comes to their defensive role (mainly because the offensive position they play is usually related to size), but in the end, the title of the position is primarily describing the offensive role. if a player defended the opposing teams smallest guard, but never runs the offense or brings the ball up the court, it doesnt matter who he guards, hes simply not a point guard. it literally wouldn't make sense to classify someone as running point, if they never do.

luka is very clearly a point guard, and is classified as one. plain and simple. anyone who argues this is completely retarded.

[JamStone]

Especially at the point guard position, it’s what you do offensively that defines that position, “point guard.” It was never an issue or question that guys like Magic and Penny were point guards, and it had nothing to do with defense. Same with Ben Simmons now. Everyone views and considers him a point guard in a 6’10 power forward body.

Lines got blurred because of Jordan and his on the court descendants, Grant Hill, Kobe, T-Mac. Because not only did they dominate the ball offensively scoring the ball, but they were also the main facilitator for their teams’ offenses, most of the time anyway. Then along came LeBron, with the ball in his hands on offense 100% of the time, plus he was a 25-30 point scorer. Make no mistake about it, guys like LeBron, James Harden, Luka Doncic, they’re all point guards, regardless what they, their teams, espn, or the league lists them as, position wise. For that matter, Jokic is a point guard offensively. You could call Giannis a point guard too, but he’s since relinquish some of that responsibility to teammates over the last two seasons.

The game is ever evolving. And the whole idea of positionless basketball, while not new, is being more and more realized on the court. Anyone can lead a fastbreak. PFs and centers can facilitate the offense from the high post. Point guards post up. Centers shoot threes. And do it all 6’4-6’5 players who shoot threes offensively but guard the opposing power forward are not rare. PJ Tucker, Royce O’Neale, Jae Crowder all testify, and on good teams too.

Luka’s a point guard, regardless who he defends. It’s about what he does offensively.

[DMC]

lmao no

would basically never guard dirk was a prime example, because 1 he got raped by dirk and 2 it would negate his strengths, which was playing as the center on defense

Because Dirk was so guardable otherwise.

[DMC]

8 turnovers in the 2013 Game 6 Championship giveaway.

Irrelevant point.

[LkrFan]

I can't put him over Greek Freak until he starts playing better defense.

[Chris Fall]

I can't put him over Greek Freak until he starts playing better defense.

He has been playing better defense. Feels like once a guy has a reputation for being a poor defender, it never goes away. Luka will never be a Bruce Bowen caliber defender. But he's leagues better this year than in previous seasons. He stays in front of his man most of the time, puts in the effort, and doesn't just stand and watch.

Case in point, Doncic this season has a better Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares than guys like Marcus Smart, Jrue Holiday, Matisse Thybulle. I know, I know, I know. Advanced metrics are flawed. And they are influenced by how good or bad their teammates are. Thing is, Luka's advanced defensive stats are better than all his perimeter defender teammates. They're not carrying him. He's defended well this season. People just refuse to admit it because they like to poke fun of his physique.

He plays defense. I'll take it further..his Defensive Rating and Defensive Win Shares are exactly the same as Giannis' this season. Think about that when you suggest he has to play better defense to be put up there with the Greek Freak.

[Neo.]

anyone who says luka doesnt play good defense simply doesnt watch him, or judges him solely off of his occasional laziness (which is much more apparent early in the regular season)

when he's truly dialed in, hes a very good defender, both in help defense and 1-on-1 defense. anyone who really paid attention to their last two playoff series could see it, especially last year where he consistently bottled up PG13 into horrible shots, and even kawhi had some offensive struggles against him and pretty much had to stick to pullups because he couldnt drive effectively and couldnt just push him over like he does to most defenders. his anticipation on passes and instincts on cutting off dribble drives is fantastic.

having a much improved defensive scheme from kidd, as well as some decent offensive help in dinwiddie and brunson has helped him be able to stay focused more consistently this year, as he doesnt have to expend nearly as much energy just to keep the offense afloat. getting a legit paint protector next year like a healthy myles turner might make the mavs the best defensive team in the nba. when you look at the top 10 drtg teams in the nba, the mavs are the only one without a good defensive big. pretty impressive tbqh, and wouldnt be possible if luka sucks so bad on defense like people suggest.

[Killakobe81]

That sweet fake pass ball fake bucket the other night… reminded me of …oh wait … nevamind.

[Texas_Ranger]

Luka has always been a good defender on guys his size, but had problem with paying attention guarding the guy without the ball. This season hes much better at that and help defense. Hes also better with guarding quick guardsy where in the past they would run past him, this year not so much. He will probably never be an all defense player, but saying hes a bad defender is just cause of those talks from early in his career. If u wanna see a bad defender just look at Trae Young. Id even say Luka is much better than Morant, whos defense is overrated as fuck.

[TD 21]

yes positions generally come with certain expectations when it comes to their defensive role (mainly because the offensive position they play is usually related to size), but in the end, the title of the position is primarily describing the offensive role. if a player defended the opposing teams smallest guard, but never runs the offense or brings the ball up the court, it doesnt matter who he guards, hes simply not a point guard. it literally wouldn't make sense to classify someone as running point, if they never do.

luka is very clearly a point guard, and is classified as one. plain and simple. anyone who argues this is completely retarded.

You've literally got this all backwards. Offensive roles, now more than ever, have little to do with size.

What an archaic take. Apparently you've never heard the cliche, you are what you guard.

Doncic is a primary ball handler/creator offensively and wing/forward defensively. James has always been the same, yet he's listed/referred to as a "SF" and Doncic a "PG". It makes no sense.

[Texas_Ranger]

if some of you want LeBron to be a point guard, its fine with me, but if you claim Luka is not a point guard, you really are a fucking retard and your opinion about baskeball is irelevant.

[mystargtr34]

You've literally got this all backwards. Offensive roles, now more than ever, have little to do with size.

What an archaic take. Apparently you've never heard the cliche, you are what you guard.

Doncic is a primary ball handler/creator offensively and wing/forward defensively. James has always been the same, yet he's listed/referred to as a "SF" and Doncic a "PG". It makes no sense.

Agree with you 100%. Doncic’s role is no different to what Lebron has played his entire career yet we have always referred to Lebron as a SF and Luka as a PG. I’ve always seen Luka as a 3 who happens to be the main play maker just like Lebron. Brunson is their PG, Bullock their SG (ok you can interchange SG and SF), DFS as their 4.

Same way I’ve always seen James Harden as a 2 guard despite everyone starting to call him a PG the last few years. He’s always has a smaller guard start next to him and he’s never defended the opposition PG. He’s a 2 guard who happens to be the main ball handler.

[Neo.]

You've literally got this all backwards. Offensive roles, now more than ever, have little to do with size.

What an archaic take. Apparently you've never heard the cliche, you are what you guard.

Doncic is a primary ball handler/creator offensively and wing/forward defensively. James has always been the same, yet he's listed/referred to as a "SF" and Doncic a "PG". It makes no sense.

so then please explain what "running point" means

no ive never heard that cliche because it doesnt exist :rollin

and what i said about size i was referring to the way traditional size has been viewed for most of basketball history (although it still holds weight, as generally guards are smaller, forwards are medium size, and centers are largest). but obviously it has changed drastically in recent history, otherwise i wouldn't be arguing that luka and lebron are point guards :lmao

[Texas_Ranger]

Agree with you 100%. Doncic’s role is no different to what Lebron has played his entire career yet we have always referred to Lebron as a SF and Luka as a PG. I’ve always seen Luka as a 3 who happens to be the main play maker just like Lebron. Brunson is their PG, Bullock their SG (ok you can interchange SG and SF), DFS as their 4.

Same way I’ve always seen James Harden as a 2 guard despite everyone starting to call him a PG the last few years. He’s always has a smaller guard start next to him and he’s never defended the opposition PG. He’s a 2 guard who happens to be the main ball handler.

this is pretty much the first season Dallas is starting Brunson with Luka. So the previous 3 seasons I gues Tim Hardaway and Finney Smith were playmakers. And even with Brunson on the floor, Luka still has the ball 90% of the time and he dictates the offense. LeBron has never in his career had the ball in his hands as much as Luka.

the more i read this thread its obvious some of you have never watched a Dallas game, other than when he played your team. While I watched 95% of his games since he was 17, so i am pretty fucking sure he's a point guard.

[Chris Fall]

6'10 Ben Simmons who generally defends wings and forwards listed as point guard. Both 6'6+ Ball brothers listed as point guards.

Midget guards Terry Rozier, Bryn Forbes, Seth Curry, Lou Williams who are usually matched up against other point guards all listed as shooting guards.

LeBron is a point guard. He isn't listed as a point guard probably because he came into the league like a million years ago when listings weren't so microscopically and critically dissected.

The Luka-LeBron comparison isn't about Luka being listed incorrectly. It's that LeBron's position listing hasn't been updated. LeBron is a point guard.

[Texas_Ranger]

6'10 Ben Simmons who generally defends wings and forwards listed as point guard. Both 6'6+ Ball brothers listed as point guards.

Midget guards Terry Rozier, Bryn Forbes, Seth Curry, Lou Williams who are usually matched up against other point guards all listed as shooting guards.

LeBron is a point guard. He isn't listed as a point guard probably because he came into the league like a million years ago when listings weren't so microscopically and critically dissected.

The Luka-LeBron comparison isn't about Luka being listed incorrectly. It's that LeBron's position listing hasn't been updated. LeBron is a point guard.

yea, and you know why? Cause they cant create shit and are not playmakers.

The LeBron thing i agree with and if they changed his position now, i wouldnt mind.

[TD 21]

Agree with you 100%. Doncic’s role is no different to what Lebron has played his entire career yet we have always referred to Lebron as a SF and Luka as a PG. I’ve always seen Luka as a 3 who happens to be the main play maker just like Lebron. Brunson is their PG, Bullock their SG (ok you can interchange SG and SF), DFS as their 4.

Same way I’ve always seen James Harden as a 2 guard despite everyone starting to call him a PG the last few years. He’s always has a smaller guard start next to him and he’s never defended the opposition PG. He’s a 2 guard who happens to be the main ball handler.

Exactly. It's not fair to compare small guards, who are also primary creators, but are mostly one position defenders (sure, you can hide them on a 3 and D wing) to forwards who have inherent advantages based on stature alone.

Like, Morant and Young can't be Doncic not because of skill or talent, but because of stature. He's also a poor defender, but just based on that, he has multiple utilities defensively because he can guard 2-4 and more than hold his own on the glass.

[Neo.]

the more i read this thread its obvious some of you have never watched a Dallas game, other than when he played your team.

this becomes more and more evident every time guys like TD 21 posts something about luka lol

[Mark Celibate]

hey f@ggots, there's really no need to overthink this...the point guard is the one who consistently brings the ball up and leads the offense. Whether it's the shortest guy on the court or that one uber-athletic guy from recess who was taller and more skilled than everybody else at everything.

Somewhat unrelated TD 21, I'm not saying you could commit suicide but it may be time to start looking into a plan of effectively killing yourself

[TD 21]

:lmao At the continued lack of basic reading comprehension.

[Neo.]

:lmao at making up cliches that don't exist and not being able to explain what it means to run point

[TD 21]

:lmao At claiming to be a basketball fan and not knowing the term, you are what you guard and still not understanding that I'm making a distinction defensively and that it's not a knock on your great white hope.

[Neo.]

:lmao At claiming to be a basketball fan and not knowing the term, you are what you guard and still not understanding that I'm making a distinction defensively and that it's not a knock on your great white hope.

:lmao still insisting on a nonexistent cliche you probably heard from your over-zealous 6th grade coach who sucked so bad at basketball he lives vicariously through kids

[Fat Brandon Bass]

“You are who you guard”

sounds like det one came straight from TD 21’s ass tbh imho

[Killakobe81]

Saw some Bird like vision and dishes again today vs Bucks yes could also be Kidd Bron Magic but as a passer Bird is who he reminds me of most. Bird had better vision just like MJ had a better fadeaway than Kobe but Luka passing is reminiscent (not identical for the morons) I don’t care what y’all say here and I’m not the only one that sees it. And yes Jokic has some of that too but Jokic reminds me of cwebb or bill Walton at their best

[DMC]

“You are who you guard”

sounds like det one came straight from TD 21’s ass tbh imho

We know it didn't come from Dirk :lol