Spurs Youth Is Overrated

[TD 21]

At least among the fan base and probably the organization.

Granted, none of it being put in the best position to succeed and the most intriguing of it is either stapled to the bench (Walker) or in the G-League (Samanic), but still.

It seems like damn near every team, especially in similar or worse position, has a more promising, young, offensive perimeter player(s). It's not just the obvious ones mostly picked high, it's even the likes of Graham and Kennard.

They can't even dream of getting on the right track again until they find someone an offense can be built around. If it's not Walker, it's not on the roster.

Hopefully, if the NBA does rig the draft, they reward the Spurs for being screwed by Scumbag and not tanking.

[Robz4000]

Problem is there's no one in this draft worth a shit outside role players. Its either Walker or bust at this point.

[Yogatti]

Not true at all. Derrick White was one of the best 2-way players last season and Poopab*tch decided to neuter him this season because he's gregg poopab*tch

[TD 21]

Yeah, the top of this draft doesn't look overly promising at the moment, but it's obviously too early to draw any conclusions.

White doesn't have the confidence/mentality to be a star and he's probably not quite dynamic/skilled enough either. His ceiling is likely elite role player; the kind that can fit in any lineup, alongside any centerpiece . . . which would be nice, if this team had anything resembling the latter.

[GreekSpursfan]

We all know that op is talking about Murray but he was not rated to begin with. A few of us thought he could become something but we haven't seen any improvement whatsoever. When you don't have a starting pg and a starting center and your stars are mediocre players this is the result. If the organization has unrealistic expectations as far as Murray's ceiling then we're in trouble.

[BlackAndWhite]

We have talent that's utilized extremely poorly

[TimDunkem]

We all know that op is talking about Murray but he was not rated to begin with. A few of us thought he could become something but we haven't seen any improvement whatsoever. When you don't have a starting pg and a starting center and your stars are mediocre players this is the result. If the organization has unrealistic expectations as far as Murray's ceiling then we're in trouble.

Nah. Half of this forum thought Murray was already good enough to take this team to the next level.

[GreekSpursfan]

Nah. Half of this forum thought Murray was already good enough to take this team to the next level.

Ok half but the other half never rated him. The biggest concern is my last sentence from the previous post. It doesn't matter how we rated him and what the fans expectations are but the organization better not make a false assessment.

[TimDunkem]

Personally, I never was high on him. Even less so when the Spurs traded for DD.

Should've taken Brogdon.

[timtonymanu]

Personally, I never was high on him. Even less so when the Spurs traded for DD.

Should've taken Brogdon.

Same. Never got the hype of him being a star player. His ceiling to me was great defensive player, but his offense left a lot to be desired. Always thought White was better and more of a fit for today’s NBA. And like OP has said, I think white’s ceiling is elite role player also so I’m not even gonna call him star like the die hard Murray fans have already done.

[timtonymanu]

Gotta hope Luka Samanic is the real deal, but knowing Pop he’s gonna be benched again next year. He would have to show star potential like Nephew to get regular minutes. Also this is why making the playoffs another year is just a waste of time. Even if this draft class sucks, Spurs need a high lottery pick. There’s always the possibility of trading away one of Walker, Murray, White if the team can draft a guard who fits the team better or flipping that lottery pick for a proven, star potential player in the league. It’s better to gamble on than hoping they can mold another non lottery pick into something but who won’t see time in their first year anyway.

[itzsoweezee]

Granted, none of it being put in the best position to succeed and the most intriguing of it is either stapled to the bench (Walker) or in the G-League (Samanic), but still.



This is the main problem.

But it's way too early to make a call on Murray or White. Murray in particular because he won't be completely over his injury until next season, as studies have shown.

Pop came in with a flawed starting lineup and clearly has no back up plan. I think the young guys could have contributed to successful season if popovich had put them in the position to succeed. Instead, he expects every young guy to be willing to wait five years to develop. That's not realistic when you have no superstars to rely on.

The source of this whole mess is popovich's skewed perspective of DeRozan. He views DeMar like a superstar, when he's a role player (ideally a scorer off the bench) in today's NBA. This led to the stupid lineups and the disregard of the younger talented guys on the roster. Completely preventable screw ups all around

[GreekSpursfan]

There is no back up plan with the roster we have. What back up plan. Forbes is playing because we need someone that has a history of being at least average shooting the bball. We have no shooters and the ones we have are either washed up(Belli) or Patty who's not a sg. This roster is full of wholes. Uncle send us back to the stone age and we need a few years to recover imo. As for the youth, there is no talented young player as of yet, i'm talking starting material. Put me in the non believers camp as far as Lonnie Walker is concerned and i hope he proves me wrong with the Spurs or wherever he may go next.

[slick'81]

This is the main problem.

But it's way too early to make a call on Murray or White. Murray in particular because he won't be completely over his injury until next season, as studies have shown.

Pop came in with a flawed starting lineup and clearly has no back up plan. I think the young guys could have contributed to successful season if popovich had put them in the position to succeed. Instead, he expects every young guy to be willing to wait five years to develop. That's not realistic when you have no superstars to rely on.

The source of this whole mess is popovich's skewed perspective of DeRozan. He views DeMar like a superstar, when he's a role player (ideally a scorer off the bench) in today's NBA. This led to the stupid lineups and the disregard of the younger talented guys on the roster. Completely preventable screw ups all around


Yea its different to bring youth around slowly when your'e winning and have duncan or kawhi to build around .this team also lacks shooters and therefore pop continues to ride patty,bryn and beli even to the teams detriment

we also have put alot of pressure on white and murray, two basically 2nd rnd picks to carry this team into the future

[Sugus]

I think rating either White or Dejounte, both of which are not being put in a position to succeed or have a roster built to their strengths, not to mention playing injured/recovering from injury (White should be getting sat for his plantar fasciitis, which IMO will blow up in Pop's face sooner than later), solely by their play so far this season is narrow-sighted. I wouldn't rate them as having superstar potential, but that doesn't mean they can't have an offense built around them; Murray especially I think would excel in a younger, faster system that cuts the ISO play in favor of ball movement and transition offense. They are just being paired with the 2 stars in the NBA with the heaviest and most outdated ISO playing style, which makes the entire offense non-fluid, not to mention the trash defense.

That said, the Spurs will probably be spending at least 2 seasons at the lottery once the inevitable downfall comes, so that should be a great opportunity by one of the most successful drafting franchises to grab their star talent. I think shedding DeMar and LMA in favor of a star C or SF, then starting something like White-DJ-Lonnie-Luka-LotteryC would yield a much, much better team than this year's, even if there's the obvious growing pains. The Spurs just have to commit to the future and stop trying to resist the tank like a flopping fish that's been taken out of the water resisting certain death.

[Chinook]

It really is. There's no obvious future star on the team where it makes sense to build around them. I can understand tanking, and I can understand (though don't really agree with) being aggressive and trying to get better talent that fits with DMDR and LMA. But I don't get turning those guys into guys like Gordon who haven't shown anything and hoping that the young guys explode. It just doesn't make sense. If that explosion happens, you can always pivot into a win-now mode. But I have negative interest in what Murray/White/Ross/Aminu/Poeltl lineups.

[Capt Bringdown]

Murray = a rich man's Shaun Livingston.
This kid's got journeyman skills.

[dbestpro]

Murray started to press as if he was trying to live up to his press clippings. When he just plays and stops trying to star he is good. The truth is the youth is not good enough right now. The question is it their fault or Pops fault. One thing for sure Pop has totally ditched the idea of putting players in a position where they can succeed.

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs coach is overrated too. Spurs system is overrated as well.

[slick'81]

Spurs were supposedly so high on lwIV they considered trading up for him.Wtf happend between now and then that pop refuses to unleash the pogo stick?

[GAustex]

If the Spurs played top flight defense they could afford young PGs growing pains. Maybe.
White and Murray both hopefully can step it up.

[timvp]

Is it, though? I don't see anyone saying the Spurs are championship contenders once they allow Murray, White and the other youngsters to develop. Some think playing them more would make the team better (but not suddenly transform into a contender or anything) but mostly people just want to see them play because it's more fun than watching Marco lose.

I think everyone is agreement that this team's next franchise player isn't on the team yet.

[TDMVPDPOY]

murray on another team will just be another scrub

that all defensive team selection he got was nothing more then a consolation prize the nba gifted the spurms for losing kawhi...

[sananspursfan21]

By some Spurstalkers, yes.

[sananspursfan21]

One of the things that make it easy to overvalue some of them is to imagine them involved in a trade package. It’s not that Murray or White are more valuable than a star or more needed player when thinking of a trade as much as it is imagining the roster with that player AND White or Murray. If a star trade came along, you’ve got offer one of them, but it’s hard for some of us as fans because we so badly want to see (insert star) play WITH the young guys as opposed to instead of them. My two cents. Don’t get me wrong,

I don’t believe any of our guys are superstar potential. White can improve to consistent starter on any team. Murray’s ceiling is probably about the same, maybe elite role player more towards his floor. Unsure what Lonnie can do, but I could see him being a borderline all star if he can ever get experience. I think we make a mistake when we assume each promising young guy is gonna be a perennial all star or would refuse a hypothetical trade because we have this imaginary status for one of the young guys.

[duncan2k5]

we dont play our young guys not treat them with respect like other teams do...instead we either dont play them, or psychologically damage them to where they are neutered and passive...so we have no way of telling whether they are good...that rookie from the wizards is killing it...we all KNOW if he was drafted by us, he would be in the g league...for all we know Luka may have been a ROY contender...but we will never know

[GAustex]

I maybe a homer but I think there is hope for White and Murray. If the Spurs were top flight defense unit I think both would play better and the team would better compete.
As currently constructed Spurs are not a contender though since the highest paid players seem not to be able to lead/ win at the crucial moments.
If the PGs keep playing as they have been Spurs will get a good pick.

[ElNono]

Related, and what I wonder is why some posters were lamenting RC not being involved in the draft anymore, when he's been hit and miss at best, most miss than hits overall?

In the past 10 years they've drafted:
Quinndary Weatherspoon
Keldon Johnson
Luka Šamanić
Lonnie Walker
Chimezie Metu
Derrick White
Jaron Blossomgame
Dejounte Murray
Nikola Milutinov
Cady Lalanne
Kyle Anderson
Jordan McRae
Livio Jean-Charles
Deshaun Thomas
Marcus Denmon
Cory Joseph
Adam Hanga
James Anderson
Ryan Richards
DeJuan Blair
Jack McClinton
Nando de Colo

Does that list show any kind of direction? I get that while they didn't draft Kawhi directly, they definitely had their sights set on him, and I won't take that away from them.

But I don't know what to make of that list. There's some players there they've yet to see an NBA floor. Completely wasted picks.

[timvp]

But I don't know what to make of that list.

Considering where the Spurs were drafting, that's an A+ haul, tbh.

[ElNono]

Considering where the Spurs were drafting, that's an A+ haul, tbh.

Is it? On paper, all the foreigners are good, but it never stopped being on paper (Nando notwithstanding, who quit anyways).

Of the local crowd, Cory Joseph is pretty much the only guy that looks like will have a decent NBA career so far. Some really bad experiments in Kyle Anderson and DeJuan.

White and Murray look like they might follow in Cory's footsteps, but still early at this point.

[timvp]

Some really bad experiments in Kyle Anderson and DeJuan.

https://i.imgur.com/JGyYlqa.gif

For where they were picked, those were both excellent selections. Not even debatable, tbh.


White and Murray look like they might follow in Cory's footsteps, but still early at this point.

White is already better than CJ and unless Murray flops, he'll be better too.

The only complete bust of a first round pick was LJC and his knee exploded a couple months after the Spurs drafted him. James Anderson looked like a really good pick until he broke his foot in a manner that usually derails careers.

Bertans and, most importantly, Nephew should be on your list, too.

The front office has drafted two Hall of Famers outside of the lottery (three if you think Manu will make it) and their hit rate elsewhere is way above league average.

[Fireball]

every other team we go up against this season seems to have better young talent ...

[timvp]

every other team we go up against this season seems to have better young talent ...

That's what happens when you've been out of the lottery for 22 years ...

[NK123]

To be a great prospect you must show up with consistency. Even when they play great, they are not better or more impactful than a player like Tim Hardaway Jr. Spurs players don't look hungrier enough. Sometimes they lack poise, most of the time they let opponents dictate their energy in the game. Only LW4 and White Show some life. LW4 have the capacity to change a game but Pop doesn't seem to aknowledge when it happens.

[ElNono]

https://i.imgur.com/JGyYlqa.gif

For where they were picked, those were both excellent selections. Not even debatable, tbh.

They were awful. At least DeJuan was more expendable since Tim and Manu were still around, you could put some makeup on it, but he hasn't even been in the league for a long while.

Kyle Anderson was a terrible 4(!) year experiment. He was so horrible, the Spurs let him walk for nothing. You could've easily burned his minutes with a D-Leaguer for a fraction of the cost.


White is already better than CJ and unless Murray flops, he'll be better too.

The only complete bust of a first round pick was LJC and his knee exploded a couple months after the Spurs drafted him. James Anderson looked like a really good pick until he broke his foot in a manner that usually derails careers.

Bertans and, most importantly, Nephew should be on your list, too.

The front office has drafted two Hall of Famers outside of the lottery (three if you think Manu will make it) and their hit rate elsewhere is way above league average.

I acknowledged nephew because we knew they were looking for him. Bertans came as part of the trade filler to make it work, I'm not under the impression they were after him. Could be wrong.

And please, I get that they drafted Duncan and luckied out with Manu, but how long are they going to ride what happened 20 years ago?

I was pretty generous in including a 10 season list, where you can fish out maybe 1 or 2 names.


I mean, I get that some people will say fans were excited when DeJuan or Kyle were drafted, but it's silly not to look back now on those picks and others in that list. Evaluation doesn't just happen the night you pick, it's ongoing. That happens with fans and media from every team. The dude DPG said it best, the evaluation with these guys is constant. That's part of their job description.

I also understand that the team's success in a good number of those years meant the Spurs were limited in the quality of talent they could pick. That's fair, but let's also stop pretending they did this bang up job.

If you still feel the need to bring up the Ginobili pick in the 2nd round from 20 years ago, then you're basically largely agreeing with me.

[JuneJive]

Compare it with other teams drafting that late and then come back with a success rate.

[r0drig0lac]

Is it, though? I don't see anyone saying the Spurs are championship contenders once they allow Murray, White and the other youngsters to develop. Some think playing them more would make the team better (but not suddenly transform into a contender or anything) but mostly people just want to see them play because it's more fun than watching Marco lose.

I think everyone is agreement that this team's next franchise player isn't on the team yet.

pretty much that, although I believe Walker might be this guy, and that White and especially Murray in another situation (not having to feed iso low iq players, other good defenders in your side, etc) look much better.

[Fireball]

That's what happens when you've been out of the lottery for 22 years ...

so the overall system works ... the Spurs were able to survive it due to the big three but now the ship is sinking

lets just hope Lonny gets more minutes and then I will still enjoy watching DJ, Derrick und Lonnie grow as players ...

[duncan2k5]

That's what happens when you've been out of the lottery for 22 years ...

Nah... Their young talent include ppl that have been drafted in later or similar spots and spurs picks... We just don't play ours and they do

[duncan2k5]

If we were another team, we would be laughing and saying they were being exposed... And that all of their success came as a result of Tim Duncan (a nice Brainer pick), and luckily out on Manu and Tony...

On top of that, the mindset of Pop back then was different from what it is now... If Manu was drafted by Pop now, he would be in the G league... So would Tony, especially since he couldn't shoot

As for the Topic... Sadly, it's the vets that are overrated... I genuinely feel that the team would be better by timely subtracting them...

Murray/white
Lonnie
Gay/ Carroll/Luka
Metu/Luka (we are seriously sleeping on him... Dude can be the next Siakam... He can shoot and he is mobile enough to Guard wings, while athletic enough to block at the rim)
Poodle

I genuinely feel like not only would that team love to play together, but they would win more

[r0drig0lac]

If we were another team, we would be laughing and saying they were being exposed

this is something that is always talked about Kerr and his titles (and in my opinion, rightly), so you are probably correct about that.

[RC_Drunkford]

lol @ People thinking Walker can't be Donovan Mitchell. Let him play a full season with consistent minutes and he'll be better than DeRozan by the time he's 21

[SAGirl]

Wow Nono turning this into a Kyle Anderson thread is some serious PTSD. The Spurs got value out of him and he was ver cheap (basically current league minimum or less) his entire 4 years. If anything paying Pau a ton of money to not play for a couple of years is something to really be traumatized about tbh. There’s many picks in there that will never play in the NBA.

But if one were to really be traumatized by poor picks, one should hope the tank goes ahead and they get better draft position bc that’s the higher probability to get guys with higher ceilings.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

sad but true

[Prime BEEF]

Related, and what I wonder is why some posters were lamenting RC not being involved in the draft anymore, when he's been hit and miss at best, most miss than hits overall?

In the past 10 years they've drafted:
Quinndary Weatherspoon
Keldon Johnson
Luka Šamanić
Lonnie Walker
Chimezie Metu
Derrick White
Jaron Blossomgame
Dejounte Murray
Nikola Milutinov
Cady Lalanne
Kyle Anderson
Jordan McRae
Livio Jean-Charles
Deshaun Thomas
Marcus Denmon
Cory Joseph
Adam Hanga
James Anderson
Ryan Richards
DeJuan Blair
Jack McClinton
Nando de Colo

Does that list show any kind of direction? I get that while they didn't draft Kawhi directly, they definitely had their sights set on him, and I won't take that away from them.

But I don't know what to make of that list. There's some players there they've yet to see an NBA floor. Completely wasted picks.
Thanks for doing this. Our draft selections have been shit. AND there were plenty of good players available at the time selections that we could’ve had.

[Prime BEEF]

Considering where the Spurs were drafting, that's an A+ haul, tbh.
There were good players available that went on to have decent careers at each of these picks. Not great players but serviceable guys that could’ve contributed.

For example, this year the spurs could’ve picked Matisse, Clarke, G. Williams, Windler, Little, Ty Jerome, Porter Jr., Edwards, Fernando, Kyle Guy all of these guys will have better careers than Luka....some by a wide margin. There are examples like this every year. This isn’t revisionist history either...the better player was evident pre-draft. Spurs have made some bad draft picks.

[TimDunkem]

Samanic will go down as a wasted pick. Book it.

[acoelho1]

I guess I’m the only one who still believes that Murray will be a star. Also, not sure how our young guys are overrated since all were chosen outside the lottery. Nevertheless, do we currently have franchise player, it remains to be seen. Very few on this forum thought Kawhi would be a superstar even when he showed glimpses of that potential. I see some similarity in Murray & Walker as far as those spurts of greatness. We need patience and for organization to play the young guys more since we are not chasing championships right now. In the long run, it will make us better.

[superbigtime]

It's pretty clear that Murray is a hard worker but limited bball IQ.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

I never thought Murray would be a star player and I’ve stated as such many times on this site. I do think he can and will turn out to be a solid NBA starter barring injuries. I also was one of the people who said that White was the better point guard and overall player at this time before the season started.

I think people are sleeping on Lonnie Walker though. I truly believe he can be a very good NBA player and barring injuries and being given an opportunity he could maybe become a star. Hopefully Pop and the coaching staff starts believing in the guy and giving him playing time.

[Sugus]

There were good players available that went on to have decent careers at each of these picks. Not great players but serviceable guys that could’ve contributed.

For example, this year the spurs could’ve picked Matisse, Clarke, G. Williams, Windler, Little, Ty Jerome, Porter Jr., Edwards, Fernando, Kyle Guy all of these guys will have better careers than Luka....some by a wide margin. There are examples like this every year. This isn’t revisionist history either...the better player was evident pre-draft. Spurs have made some bad draft picks.

Nah, just plain bullshit. How can you seriously attempt to judge whether draft prospects will have better careers than other having seen less than a quarter of their rookie seasons? Any one of them, all of them even, could have career ending injuries, fail to develop, peak as rookies, etc. yet you already paint the narrative that they'll have better careers than Luka just because we sent him to develop in the G-League? Lackluster speculation tbh

[duncan2k5]

Nah, just plain bullshit. How can you seriously attempt to judge whether draft prospects will have better careers than other having seen less than a quarter of their rookie seasons? Any one of them, all of them even, could have career ending injuries, fail to develop, peak as rookies, etc. yet you already paint the narrative that they'll have better careers than Luka just because we sent him to develop in the G-League? Lackluster speculation tbh

he is right.. how can luka have a better career if he doesnt play? Pop would have sent lukaa of the mavs to the g league, and we would be on here wondering if he was another eurotrash pick...no way pop would have handed him the kays and allowed him to play his game through all the ups and downs as a rookie

[JuneJive]

How can one have a discussion with someone who thinks like that.

He pretty much excluded himself from serious talk.

[duncan2k5]

theres players chosen after luka and walker...some in the 2nd round that are playing and contributing on teams that are better than us

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

There are some decent role players in our young guns, but no stars. In fact, none of our young players possess nearly the talent of LMA or DeRozan.

[r0drig0lac]

theres players chosen after luka and walker...some in the 2nd round that are playing and contributing on teams that are better than us

Luka and especially Keldon would have minutes since day 1 in any other franchise.

[Excessive Egotist]

All of Murray, Samanic, Walker, and Johnson could develop into perennial All Stars. White will be a career top 8 rotation player. The Spurs should move off vets and stock up on assets, but their current crop of young players is better than 50% of the league. Maybe 75%. Roster pessimism is misplaced.

Having said that, the best outcome for this season would be to position the franchise for a chance at a top 3 pick.

[TimDunkem]

More like Excessive Optimist.

KJ perennial all-star...:lmao

[tmtcsc]

I agree with OP 100%. Derrick White shows flashes of being really good but then disappears just like in last year's playoffs. Once Denver figured him out, he was done. After 3 years, its clear that's who he is. Bryn Forbes is a good shooter but his defense is so bad he shouldn't stay on the floor. He definitely doesn't belong in the starting lineup. DM being a PG or effective player was a pipe dream from the outset. He's proven to be a terrific rebounder for his position but that's it. He can't shoot, can't run a team and relies way too much on his physical attributes to play. In other words, he's low IQ when it comes to the game. But hey, look on the bright side, most delusional folks in this forum think his bloated contract was a sneaky win. Metu? Nah. He's mobile with decent hops but too undersized and can't shoot. It's too early to judge this year's rookies.

This team is awful and the veterans counted on for heavy production would be complimentary players elsewhere at best. They aren't leaders and aren't alphas. They take no accountability or ownership & just talk a good game. This team should be blown up and reconfigured. Going with a "youth" movement isn't the answer either. They need a blend of talent and experience to win. It will take a savvy GM to get that done & I don't see evidence of one in the Front Office.

Sheesh, I completely forgot about LW4. I guess forgetting to even mention him says all you need to know.

[Sugus]

he is right.. how can luka have a better career if he doesnt play? Pop would have sent lukaa of the mavs to the g league, and we would be on here wondering if he was another eurotrash pick...no way pop would have handed him the kays and allowed him to play his game through all the ups and downs as a rookie

I will never understand why so many people get their panties in a bunch over players spending their rookie season in the G-League. Do you think their careers will be over afterwards? Can they not play many, many more seasons in the NBA afterwards? IF the Spurs were a trash development organization, where every pick mysteriously ends up being a bust, you would have a point. But we are not the Suns - instead, Spurs development program is top of the league, systematically churning out players that play above the position they were drafted at (what other franchises develop starting PGs out of 29th picks...?), so such heavy criticism of their method is really unwarranted. Pop has been coaching like shit but it doesn't mean his system doesn't work, when time and time again we see it's results.

Also, if the Spurs drafted a player with obvious stardom potential from day 1, he would skip the G-League - why is everyone beating this eead horse "Luka Doncic would play in the G-League under the Spurs" when it's plain false? Tim, Drob, Manu, Tony, Nephew never played in the G-League. There's just way too high of expectations for every pick this franchise makes... Really spoiled fans. Also, the Raptors current success is partially owed to their excellent development and G-League program, turning undrafted players into serviceable players - where's the excuse?

[JuneJive]

Sheesh, I completely forgot about LW4. I guess forgetting to even mention him says all you need to know.

About taking you serious.

You're right.

[SayTown]

They are all late first round picks, to get a fringe all star in the late first round is considered lucky.

[spurspl]

agree, most of spurs fans are so excited about murray like he would be doncic or trae but hes NOT and WONT ever be at least in 50% as good as one of them.
loonie, samanic and keldon just an average g league players, nothing special.

[spurspl]

They are all late first round picks, to get a fringe all star in the late first round is considered lucky.

That why spurs should have tanked after kawhis trade to get top picks. But there are still some guys here who think that top picks dont increase chances to get a youmg star... saad

[TheGreatYacht]

I’m a fan of our Instagram Baller, he’s getting held back like Kawhi was his first 5 years here. Taking a step back for our middle aged career losers. His shot attempts have gone down and it’s obvious one of our two max players complained about not getting enough touches with him in the starting lineup.

He’d flourish on another team in a system from this century.

[TheGreatYacht]

agree, most of spurs fans are so excited about murray like he would be doncic or trae but hes NOT and WONT ever be at least in 50% as good as one of them.
loonie, samanic and keldon just an average g league players, nothing special.
He was clamping Trae up the entire first half of their meeting. It wasn’t until craterface pulled Murray in the 2nd half so he doesn’t surpass 20 minutes, that Young started heating up.

[TD 21]

This is the main problem.

But it's way too early to make a call on Murray or White. Murray in particular because he won't be completely over his injury until next season, as studies have shown.

Pop came in with a flawed starting lineup and clearly has no back up plan. I think the young guys could have contributed to successful season if popovich had put them in the position to succeed. Instead, he expects every young guy to be willing to wait five years to develop. That's not realistic when you have no superstars to rely on.

The source of this whole mess is popovich's skewed perspective of DeRozan. He views DeMar like a superstar, when he's a role player (ideally a scorer off the bench) in today's NBA. This led to the stupid lineups and the disregard of the younger talented guys on the roster. Completely preventable screw ups all around

Nah, it isn't. Players generally show superstar or star potential early on. He'd played over 2000 minutes entering the season or about one season worth of solid minutes, only he'd had 2+ years of development and still he's below average - terrible at virtually every aspect of half court offense.




It really is. There's no obvious future star on the team where it makes sense to build around them. I can understand tanking, and I can understand (though don't really agree with) being aggressive and trying to get better talent that fits with DMDR and LMA. But I don't get turning those guys into guys like Gordon who haven't shown anything and hoping that the young guys explode. It just doesn't make sense. If that explosion happens, you can always pivot into a win-now mode. But I have negative interest in what Murray/White/Ross/Aminu/Poeltl lineups.

Gordon is nothing special, but he's decent, still has some upside left and is a difficult, yet important archetype. It's not about the young guys "exploding", it's about putting them in the best possible position to succeed and getting a better idea of their upside.



Is it, though? I don't see anyone saying the Spurs are championship contenders once they allow Murray, White and the other youngsters to develop. Some think playing them more would make the team better (but not suddenly transform into a contender or anything) but mostly people just want to see them play because it's more fun than watching Marco lose.

I think everyone is agreement that this team's next franchise player isn't on the team yet.

It is. I've never seen a young player with lesser pedigree, show less and receive such hype from the natinal media, as Murray and it was aided by the Spurs uncharacteristically talking him up, which naturally led to a segment of the fan base buying in.

Of course I want to see them play more and put into position to succeed; I've talked at length about that.

[SayTown]

Related, and what I wonder is why some posters were lamenting RC not being involved in the draft anymore, when he's been hit and miss at best, most miss than hits overall?

In the past 10 years they've drafted:
Quinndary Weatherspoon
Keldon Johnson
Luka Šamanić
Lonnie Walker
Chimezie Metu
Derrick White
Jaron Blossomgame
Dejounte Murray
Nikola Milutinov
Cady Lalanne
Kyle Anderson
Jordan McRae
Livio Jean-Charles
Deshaun Thomas
Marcus Denmon
Cory Joseph
Adam Hanga
James Anderson
Ryan Richards
DeJuan Blair
Jack McClinton
Nando de Colo

Does that list show any kind of direction? I get that while they didn't draft Kawhi directly, they definitely had their sights set on him, and I won't take that away from them.

But I don't know what to make of that list. There's some players there they've yet to see an NBA floor. Completely wasted picks.


The one guy on that list who had potential and looked like he was going to be a really good player until he broke his foot was James Anderson. It's no surprise he was the highest pick on that list as well.

[timvp]

It is. I've never seen a young player with lesser pedigree, show less and receive such hype from the natinal media, as Murray

:lmao

Have you heard of the basketball team called the Lakers? All their young players get hyped to the heavens. Currently, Alex Caruso is being billed as the balding, Aggie version of Dennis Johnson. Hell, Kyle Kuzma has been touted as a borderline superstar by some sections of the national media.

Dejounte Murray? Bill Simmons literally doesn't even know how to pronounce his name. About 99.9% of the national media couldn't pick him out of a lineup. What you smokin', cuz?

[timvp]

They were awful. e.

Kyle Anderson was a terrible 4(!) year experiment. He was so horrible, the Spurs let him walk for nothing. the Grizzlies gave him $40 million.

Fixed.


I acknowledged nephew because we knew they were looking for him.You should have put him in your list, tbh.


Bertans came as part of the trade filler to make it work, I'm not under the impression they were after him.The Spurs drafted him. He should have been on your list.


let's also stop pretending they did this bang up job.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Lsn6R0xjdstnG/source.gif

[jjktkk]

I’m a fan of our Instagram Baller, he’s getting held back like Kawhi was his first 5 years here. Taking a step back for our middle aged career losers. His shot attempts have gone down and it’s obvious one of our two max players complained about not getting enough touches with him in the starting lineup.

He’d flourish on another team in a system from this century.
All young pgs strive to find the balance of scoring and distributing/running the offense. Parker went thru the same thing.

[Seventyniner]

The front office has drafted two Hall of Famers outside of the lottery (three if you think Manu will make it) and their hit rate elsewhere is way above league average.

:lol needled

[Prime BEEF]

agree, most of spurs fans are so excited about murray like he would be doncic or trae but hes NOT and WONT ever be at least in 50% as good as one of them.
loonie, samanic and keldon just an average g league players, nothing special.
Yup

[Prime BEEF]

Nah, just plain bullshit. How can you seriously attempt to judge whether draft prospects will have better careers than other having seen less than a quarter of their rookie seasons? Any one of them, all of them even, could have career ending injuries, fail to develop, peak as rookies, etc. yet you already paint the narrative that they'll have better careers than Luka just because we sent him to develop in the G-League? Lackluster speculation tbh
Oh come on! Obviously baring injury.

It’s easy. I can say they’ll be better because they were better players pre-draft and are better post-draft than Luka. Luka is in the g-league partly because pop is awful and partly because Luka just isn’t that good.

Some of you are making a huge false assumption and being naive. Just because the spurs draft a player doesn’t mean they are good or that “they have star potential if they are developed right”. Sometimes a player just isn’t an nba caliber player and the front office is blind (aka just bad at draft analysis) to that. Like Luka. 2yrs from now no one should be surprised about his “development”.

[MannyIsGod]

lol @ this thread. Giving up on players before they've really even had a shot.

[timvp]

:lmao

[MannyIsGod]

Spursfan today would have given up on Manu 20 games into the 03 season because he didn't shine early.

[ElNono]

Fixed.

Which the Spurs rightly didn't match, because he clearly wasn't worth it. If they really thought he would fetch that kind of money, they would've traded him before then and at least get something in return.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he's gone.


You should have put him in your list, tbh.

I did the right thing and gave him an honorable mention in the same post as the list. In reality, Indiana beat the Spurs to the punch.


The Spurs drafted him. He should have been on your list.

No they did not. His rights came in the Nephew trade, IIRC.


https://media.giphy.com/media/Lsn6R0xjdstnG/source.gif

https://media2.giphy.com/media/dEdmW17JnZhiU/source.gif

[timtonymanu]

To be fair to OP, he did say Walker had potential but was glued to the bench. Pretty sure everyone was on the Walker hype train all season except Pop and the really hardcore sniffers. (See "Lonnie wasn't competitive" thread).

[slick'81]

I never mentioned walkers game because he hasnt played but we saw it in summerleague and finally he broke through.Poodle and lonnie need consistent run to be effective from here on out

[Chinook]

To be fair to OP, he did say Walker had potential but was glued to the bench. Pretty sure everyone was on the Walker hype train all season except Pop and the really hardcore sniffers. (See "Lonnie wasn't competitive" thread).

There are people who legit don't like Walker and don't like Pop. It's not a sniffer view to dislike him. It might be a sniffer view to say that the onus is on Lonnie, DJM and the others to play well and not Pop to force them into the rotation. I still hold a similar view to that. I think this is pretty much how Pop wants this to go. Walker seemed to have the confidence from his SL stint AND the hunger to make his defense effective. It's not clear that he would have brought this kind of effort if he hadn't been scrapping for minutes. You could argue that Murray has been struggling with complacency too after being anointed as the future so early and having been given the starting job without competition after how well White handled it last year. Walker looks more like a two-way player than he's ever looked, and it's weird for folks to believe that has happened despite Pop. It's not like Lonnie's had that rep in the past.

As it is, it was a great next step, and hopefully Pop has Walker firmly in the rotation now. But does this make it to where the team should "build" around Walker and trade DeRozan and Aldridge? No. He can and should learn to play within their contexts until/unless he shows he can consistently handle a star's offensive load. In that regard, there will be people who use this as evidence to continue to overrate the Spurs' youth. But hardly anyone wants the team to keep rolling out Beli, and it would be nice for one of Mills or Forbes to fall out of the rotation.

[Sugus]

Lol at everyone doubting the Spurs and their development program all along. Suddenly sending players to the G-League doesn't seem all that awful, eh? Sure Lonnie was misdeveloped and every other franchises' 19th picks are dropping 29pt games, right? Gtfoh, tbh.

[DPG21920]

There are people who legit don't like Walker and don't like Pop. It's not a sniffer view to dislike him. It might be a sniffer view to say that the onus is on Lonnie, DJM and the others to play well and not Pop to force them into the rotation. I still hold a similar view to that. I think this is pretty much how Pop wants this to go. Walker seemed to have the confidence from his SL stint AND the hunger to make his defense effective. It's not clear that he would have brought this kind of effort if he hadn't been scrapping for minutes. You could argue that Murray has been struggling with complacency too after being anointed as the future so early and having been given the starting job without competition after how well White handled it last year. Walker looks more like a two-way player than he's ever looked, and it's weird for folks to believe that has happened despite Pop. It's not like Lonnie's had that rep in the past.

As it is, it was a great next step, and hopefully Pop has Walker firmly in the rotation now. But does this make it to where the team should "build" around Walker and trade DeRozan and Aldridge? No. He can and should learn to play within their contexts until/unless he shows he can consistently handle a star's offensive load. In that regard, there will be people who use this as evidence to continue to overrate the Spurs' youth. But hardly anyone wants the team to keep rolling out Beli, and it would be nice for one of Mills or Forbes to fall out of the rotation.

Bench Lonnie one game, maybe two. But to dig yourself a massive hole and allow the franchise to get embarrassed to “groom” Lonnie. Nah. Don’t buy that.

[Chinook]

Bench Lonnie one game, maybe two. But to dig yourself a massive hole and allow the franchise to get embarrassed to “groom” Lonnie. Nah. Don’t buy that.

Oh no, I don't think Pop was right to not start off the season with Walker in the rotation, let alone block him out for a quarter of the season. After he called out Lonnie, he should have let him play the next game to see if he was better. If he still didn't compete hard enough, then bench him. I'm not saying that Pop's done a good job coaching this year (I've said the opposite a lot). I'm saying that Walker's responded well to it, and in that regard, Pop's getting what he wants out of the decision he made. He a better player for the tough love, even if I think the message was clear way early. And Pop totally didn't lose these games on purpose -- he's just done that bad of a job this year.

[DPG21920]

Oh no, I don't think Pop was right to not start off the season with Walker in the rotation, let alone block him out for a quarter of the season. After he called out Lonnie, he should have let him play the next game to see if he was better. If he still didn't compete hard enough, then bench him. I'm not saying that Pop's done a good job coaching this year (I've said the opposite a lot). I'm saying that Walker's responded well to it, and in that regard, Pop's getting what he wants out of the decision he made. He a better player for the tough love, even if I think the message was clear way early. And Pop totally didn't lose these games on purpose -- he's just done that bad of a job this year.

I agree with that :tu

[benefactor]

Watching Walker jerk off in between OP's eyes was pretty satisfying tbh. Should be a nice future bump.

[DPG21920]

But the biggest thing to me is we have seen the one thing that Pop and many others have fretted over be wrong: Murray/White/Lonnie CAN play together.

White can absolutely shoot from 3 and space the floor. Lonnie can shoot from 3 and space the floor. Those 3 represent a great defensive trio possibly and to not play them because you “need shooting” around Murray has been definitively shot down IMO.

They can all play together.

[timvp]

There are people who legit don't like Walker and don't like Pop. It's not a sniffer view to dislike him. It might be a sniffer view to say that the onus is on Lonnie, DJM and the others to play well and not Pop to force them into the rotation. I still hold a similar view to that. I think this is pretty much how Pop wants this to go. Walker seemed to have the confidence from his SL stint AND the hunger to make his defense effective. It's not clear that he would have brought this kind of effort if he hadn't been scrapping for minutes. You could argue that Murray has been struggling with complacency too after being anointed as the future so early and having been given the starting job without competition after how well White handled it last year. Walker looks more like a two-way player than he's ever looked, and it's weird for folks to believe that has happened despite Pop. It's not like Lonnie's had that rep in the past.

100

[timvp]

Bench Lonnie one game, maybe two. But to dig yourself a massive hole and allow the franchise to get embarrassed to “groom” Lonnie. Nah. Don’t buy that.

This is such a shortsighted overreaction, tbh. If it took 10-15 games or whatever it was to get through to Walker that he will only be allowed to play if he plays hard on both ends of the court, that's a microscopic price to pay.

In the grand scheme of things, that's literally nothing.

":cry But what about those few other games Walker could have played if Pop wasn't being mean and let Walker do what he wanted to do :cry" = Amazingly myopic.

[slick'81]

This is such a shortsighted overreaction, tbh. If it took 10-15 games or whatever it was to get through to Walker that he will only be allowed to play if he plays hard on both ends of the court, that's a microscopic price to pay.

In the grand scheme of things, that's literally nothing.

":cry But what about those few other games Walker could have played if Pop wasn't being mean and let Walker do what he wanted to do :cry" = Amazingly myopic.


Pops tough love getting through to lw4

[DPG21920]

This is such a shortsighted overreaction, tbh. If it took 10-15 games or whatever it was to get through to Walker that he will only be allowed to play if he plays hard on both ends of the court, that's a microscopic price to pay.

In the grand scheme of things, that's literally nothing.

":cry But what about those few other games Walker could have played if Pop wasn't being mean and let Walker do what he wanted to do :cry" = Amazingly myopic.

What? You dont think this season would have looked different and playoffs be a lot more in play if Lonnie (and other rotation decisions) were made?

Pop just likely threw away what could be a playoff season to teach Lonnie a lesson? You are ok with that?

You actually agree with how Pop handled this and not having Lonnie in the rotation at all? You can’t teach him a lesson and be hard on him while giving him minutes consistently?

[Spurtacular]

:lol This thread did not age well (or at all).

[Chinook]

But the biggest thing to me is we have seen the one thing that Pop and many others have fretted over be wrong: Murray/White/Lonnie CAN play together.

White can absolutely shoot from 3 and space the floor. Lonnie can shoot from 3 and space the floor. Those 3 represent a great defensive trio possibly and to not play them because you “need shooting” around Murray has been definitively shot down IMO.

They can all play together.

I don't know that they can. It's not about being "able to shoot threes". Spacing isn't just about having an okay 3P%. It's about the gravity distribution around the court, and right now, none of those three have the gravity from three to really force the defense out of the paint. White is too hesitant to shoot threes if there's any chance for a pass. Murray's wind-up is way too slow to force guys to play on him, and he too would rather dribble. Walker is the only one who might really be able to space the floor, but he'd have to show he can hit shots before anyone's gonna let him warp the D. It's more than that too. Even if White and Walker could space for Murray, Murray can't space for them, and both of them are better offensive players than him and should have the ball more. Murray has to figure out his shooting problem to be on the court. Otherwise, you're either playing four-on-five offensively or forcing him to be the main ball-handler, which isn't his strength.

[timvp]

What? You dont think this season would have looked different and playoffs be a lot more in play if Lonnie (and other rotation decisions) were made?

Pop just likely threw away what could be a playoff season to teach Lonnie a lesson? You are ok with that?

You actually agree with how Pop handled this and not having Lonnie in the rotation at all? You can’t teach him a lesson and be hard on him while giving him minutes consistently?

You think 10 games of this season isn't worth crafting a two-way player? Seriously?

That shortsightedness is astounding, tbh.

[K...]

What? You dont think this season would have looked different and playoffs be a lot more in play if Lonnie (and other rotation decisions) were made?

Pop just likely threw away what could be a playoff season to teach Lonnie a lesson? You are ok with that?

You actually agree with how Pop handled this and not having Lonnie in the rotation at all? You can’t teach him a lesson and be hard on him while giving him minutes consistently?

There are like 15 players to manage and the Lonnie slow walk occured in the context of Murray and Lyle's promotion. Maybe there's a point to try players in batches. Pop did a little changes and did not do all the change Is people go crazy

[Spurtacular]

I don't know that they can. It's not about being "able to shoot threes". Spacing isn't just about having an okay 3P%. It's about the gravity distribution around the court, and right now, none of those three have the gravity from three to really force the defense out of the paint. White is too hesitant to shoot threes if there's any chance for a pass. Murray's wind-up is way too slow to force guys to play on him, and he too would rather dribble. Walker is the only one who might really be able to space the floor, but he'd have to show he can hit shots before anyone's gonna let him warp the D. It's more than that too. Even if White and Walker could space for Murray, Murray can't space for them, and both of them are better offensive players than him and should have the ball more. Murray has to figure out his shooting problem to be on the court. Otherwise, you're either playing four-on-five offensively or forcing him to be the main ball-handler, which isn't his strength.

Overstated, but some validity to this. Murray needs to get consistent from the corner three if nothing else. If he does that, he can be like a skilled Bowen out there with his defense being what it is.

[ZeusWillJudge]

You think 10 games of this season isn't worth crafting a two-way player? Seriously?

That shortsightedness is astounding, tbh.


I dunno, TIMVP. You're the GOAT and a master motivator, and the only tool you have in your box is to glue him to the bench? I don't see anything he learned on the bench that he couldn't have learned on the floor in all those losses. Unless you're saying that he got really pissed off and came out angry. Pop isn't THAT CIA.

[J_Paco]

lol @ this thread. Giving up on players before they've really even had a shot.

It's the usual imbecilic suspects like El Nono, TD 21, tm whatever the fuck his name is.

No one ever claimed the Spurs young players will be elite, but for where they were drafted they are all solid value picks.

Hopefully, two or three amount to solid players but no one may become a "franchise building block" or future superstar.

Nah, instead we should all bitch and moan that non-lottery picks aren't good enough to compete in a league that thrives on elite talent.

And of course Lonnie explodes the night he posts this pandering bullshit.

[Payote75]

Spurs youth is fine and we have a chance to turn this around quickly. The kids probably want to take over but are deferring to vets like Aldridge and DD. The time to trade those dudes is now. If you can get a Gordon and/or a Bamba
please get it done. Gay and mills off the bench as the vets is fine with me. But let's get more youth get what you can for DD they at the very least could become future trade assets. Trade Aldridge as well if you could get Gordon and Bamba for DD and belli whatever pieces to make money work. You can then trade Aldridge for either an expiring or acquire some more youth and obviously take back a serviceable player to make the money work. Now is the time to trade these two let's let these kids play add some more youth keep our pick and maybe add someone else's pick. Pleassssssseeeeeeeeeeee the writing is on the wall but man can they really right this ship quickly.

[DPG21920]

I don't know that they can. It's not about being "able to shoot threes". Spacing isn't just about having an okay 3P%. It's about the gravity distribution around the court, and right now, none of those three have the gravity from three to really force the defense out of the paint. White is too hesitant to shoot threes if there's any chance for a pass. Murray's wind-up is way too slow to force guys to play on him, and he too would rather dribble. Walker is the only one who might really be able to space the floor, but he'd have to show he can hit shots before anyone's gonna let him warp the D. It's more than that too. Even if White and Walker could space for Murray, Murray can't space for them, and both of them are better offensive players than him and should have the ball more. Murray has to figure out his shooting problem to be on the court. Otherwise, you're either playing four-on-five offensively or forcing him to be the main ball-handler, which isn't his strength.

But White and Murray both played with Forbes/DeRozan. I’m not saying it’s ideal; I’m saying for this team? Yeah, if Forbes/DeRozan can start with one of them, they can all 3 play together especially factoring the defensive uptick.

[DPG21920]

I don't know that they can. It's not about being "able to shoot threes". Spacing isn't just about having an okay 3P%. It's about the gravity distribution around the court, and right now, none of those three have the gravity from three to really force the defense out of the paint. White is too hesitant to shoot threes if there's any chance for a pass. Murray's wind-up is way too slow to force guys to play on him, and he too would rather dribble. Walker is the only one who might really be able to space the floor, but he'd have to show he can hit shots before anyone's gonna let him warp the D. It's more than that too. Even if White and Walker could space for Murray, Murray can't space for them, and both of them are better offensive players than him and should have the ball more. Murray has to figure out his shooting problem to be on the court. Otherwise, you're either playing four-on-five offensively or forcing him to be the main ball-handler, which isn't his strength.

But White and Murray both played with Forbes/DeRozan. I’m not saying it’s ideal; I’m saying for this team? Yeah, if Forbes/DeRozan can start with one of them, they can all 3 play together especially factoring the defensive uptick.

[DPG21920]

You think 10 games of this season isn't worth crafting a two-way player? Seriously?

That shortsightedness is astounding, tbh.

You didn’t answer my questions.

[DPG21920]

I dunno, TIMVP. You're the GOAT and a master motivator, and the only tool you have in your box is to glue him to the bench? I don't see anything he learned on the bench that he couldn't have learned on the floor in all those losses. Unless you're saying that he got really pissed off and came out angry. Pop isn't THAT CIA.

It doesn’t make sense and IIRC even TIMVP was calling for Lonnie to be playing sooner so this is an odd reaction.

I’m not saying 10 games of tough love is not worth it; I’m saying HOW he handled the tough love put the team in a whole and he could have had both.

[timvp]

You didn’t answer my questions.You didn't answer my initial question.


he could have had both.

Like being better in 10 games in this season is even on the same scale as pushing Walker to reach his potential on both ends :lol

[DPG21920]

You didn't answer my initial question.



Like being better in 10 games in this season is even on the same scale as pushing Walker to reach his potential on both ends :lol

What question? I missed it. I will answer yours, then please answer mine I asked.

Why are you acting like you couldn’t (and very likely) couldn’t do both? What evidence do you have that benching him this much vs 2 games had any impact?

Like am I torn up inside if Lonnie reaches his potential “because” of this? Of course not. Great. But don’t defend stupid a** coaching and conflate it with this.

[timvp]

Why are you acting like you couldn’t (and very likely) couldn’t do both? What evidence do you have that benching him this much vs 2 games had any impact?

Your scale of importance is strange.

Forging Walker into a two-way player >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 games of this season.

[timvp]

"I sold my business for $100 million!" - anonymous

"But why didn't you sell it two weeks ago? They might have offered the same amount then." - DPG

[DPG21920]

"I sold my business for $100 million!" - anonymous

"But why didn't you sell it two weeks ago? They might have offered the same amount then." - DPG

:lmao You yourself said Lonnie should be playing WTF kind of mind melt is this

[timvp]

:lmao You yourself said you should sell the company two weeks ago

Scale, my friend. Scale.

[DPG21920]

Scale, my friend. Scale.

Got damn Yoda. Fine, I will forget about Pop’s a** of a season because Lonnie is DWade with a 3Ball. You win.

[ElNono]

It's the usual imbecilic suspects like El Nono, TD 21, tm whatever the fuck his name is.

I know you really want to hop into this train, even though you were talking shit about Pop's rotation just last week, but the (related) issue I brought up in this thread is how they drafted.

And let's be honest here, you'll be back to bitching about Pop's rotations once this fluke win fades away.

[duncan2k5]

I will never understand why so many people get their panties in a bunch over players spending their rookie season in the G-League. Do you think their careers will be over afterwards? Can they not play many, many more seasons in the NBA afterwards? IF the Spurs were a trash development organization, where every pick mysteriously ends up being a bust, you would have a point. But we are not the Suns - instead, Spurs development program is top of the league, systematically churning out players that play above the position they were drafted at (what other franchises develop starting PGs out of 29th picks...?), so such heavy criticism of their method is really unwarranted. Pop has been coaching like shit but it doesn't mean his system doesn't work, when time and time again we see it's results.

Also, if the Spurs drafted a player with obvious stardom potential from day 1, he would skip the G-League - why is everyone beating this eead horse "Luka Doncic would play in the G-League under the Spurs" when it's plain false? Tim, Drob, Manu, Tony, Nephew never played in the G-League. There's just way too high of expectations for every pick this franchise makes... Really spoiled fans. Also, the Raptors current success is partially owed to their excellent development and G-League program, turning undrafted players into serviceable players - where's the excuse?

Pop was different under the big 3...i shouldn't have had to explain that... That's what ppl have been saying all along

[SAGirl]

To be fair to OP, he did say Walker had potential but was glued to the bench. Pretty sure everyone was on the Walker hype train all season except Pop and the really hardcore sniffers. (See "Lonnie wasn't competitive" thread).
I think this thread is more about White and Murray at least that’s how I took it. In my comment earlier I mentioned I really couldnt say anything about their recent draftees who aren’t playing.

TBF to OP, he has expressed multiple times in different threads that Lonnie was the only one who looked the part of a star (as has Chinook at times) bc he has not just the athleticism but a good looking shot and natural scoring talent.

[SAGirl]

Got damn Yoda. Fine, I will forget about Pop’s a** of a season because Lonnie is DWade with a 3Ball. You win.
you capitulated too early.
I do so hate how Pop gets credit for every improvement by one of his players when far as we know Lonnie has been ready for a while just lacked opportunities. It’s a massive problem for real stars not named Duncan/Manu/Tony. And frankly Manu was already a developed 25 year old rookie afík and Timmy D cake ready to play from day 1. The only thing we know is Lonnie made some mistakes in one game and got benched bc Pop probably had too many things/lineups on his plate to incorporate him... until they went on a humongous losing streak plus LMA got “injured”.

There’s not a change that’s going to happen in 2 weeks that wasn’t based on work put in the summer by the player. Recognizing the player is the first step to perhaps keeping these guys when they mature in SA. Let the player credit the coach if they want but one always should credit the player first for all the work they put into their games.

[ZeusWillJudge]

[QUOTE=timvp;9998987]Your scale of importance is strange.

Edit:

Never mind what I said. Explain the logic of playing him against Minny, and then not against the Clippers. How, exactly, did that help him become a 2-way player?

Maybe Pop should kick Forbes in the balls. Then if he starts playing D, Pop can take credit for it. Some players need to be benched - some need to be kicked in the balls.

[Arcadian]

Your scale of importance is strange.

Forging Walker into a two-way player >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 games of this season.

Benching Walker a couple of times forged him into a 2-way player? Well, that's an optimistic take if there ever was one.

[MannyIsGod]

you capitulated too early.
I do so hate how Pop gets credit for every improvement by one of his players when far as we know Lonnie has been ready for a while just lacked opportunities. It’s a massive problem for real stars not named Duncan/Manu/Tony. And frankly Manu was already a developed 25 year old rookie afík and Timmy D cake ready to play from day 1. The only thing we know is Lonnie made some mistakes in one game and got benched bc Pop probably had too many things/lineups on his plate to incorporate him... until they went on a humongous losing streak plus LMA got “injured”.

There’s not a change that’s going to happen in 2 weeks that wasn’t based on work put in the summer by the player. Recognizing the player is the first step to perhaps keeping these guys when they mature in SA. Let the player credit the coach if they want but one always should credit the player first for all the work they put into their games.

The reason is because the number of players who have done well with the Spurs out of no where is high. Then many of those players have left, and done horribly. Yet, the opposite isn't really true. Name me the players who have failed under Pop but gone on to succeed elsewhere? I can't think of one off the top of my head. Yet I can think of a lot who fill the other side of the coin.

None of us are behind the scenes and privy to why Pop is doing what he is doing. I generally think he's been atrocious this season, but I do think there is potential that he's pulling the right strings with the 3 young players. I don't know, but if Beli plays in place of LWIV next game then we should all riot.

[Marcus Bryant]

Spurs fans seem to be taking lotto ball in stride.

[RC_Drunkford]

lol @ People thinking Walker can't be Donovan Mitchell. Let him play a full season with consistent minutes and he'll be better than DeRozan by the time he's 21

I told you idiots

[TDMVPDPOY]

the only thing i know is this, IB faggot was never in the 4th quarter making the run, he was never in both ot ....pretty much sums it up about him as a spurs player, his gleague material man

lonnie and white is the real future, the future is now, unless popabitch still thinks these 2 aint over themselves

[SAGirl]

The reason is because the number of players who have done well with the Spurs out of no where is high. Then many of those players have left, and done horribly. Yet, the opposite isn't really true. Name me the players who have failed under Pop but gone on to succeed elsewhere? I can't think of one off the top of my head. Yet I can think of a lot who fill the other side of the coin.

None of us are behind the scenes and privy to why Pop is doing what he is doing. I generally think he's been atrocious this season, but I do think there is potential that he's pulling the right strings with the 3 young players. I don't know, but if Beli plays in place of LWIV next game then we should all riot.
Bait ignored.

[Spurs da champs]

I told you idiots
He can easily be better than Mitchell. His defense on Harden was so disciplined & just good.

[RC_Drunkford]

He can easily be better than Mitchell. His defense on Harden was so disciplined & just good.

of course he can, I just used him as a comparison cause they similar players and Walker was often compared to him when he entered the draft

[RC_Drunkford]

Like being better in 10 games in this season is even on the same scale as pushing Walker to reach his potential on both ends :lol

that's one of the dumbest posts I've read all year

[Sugus]

Oh come on! Obviously baring injury.

It’s easy. I can say they’ll be better because they were better players pre-draft and are better post-draft than Luka. Luka is in the g-league partly because pop is awful and partly because Luka just isn’t that good.

Some of you are making a huge false assumption and being naive. Just because the spurs draft a player doesn’t mean they are good or that “they have star potential if they are developed right”. Sometimes a player just isn’t an nba caliber player and the front office is blind (aka just bad at draft analysis) to that. Like Luka. 2yrs from now no one should be surprised about his “development”.

Filed under "trash takes". Let's again hear the complaints about rookies taking the time to develop in the G-League before coming into the NBA... Huh...? Silence?

People really questioning one of the greatest development franchises ever on how they develop their players. Lonnie, a G-League product, shut it up last night. If Luka can develop into anything similar to him, let him simmer down in the GL for two seasons for all I care, tbh... :hungry:

[Russ]

A 20-year old just scored 28 to lead the team to its biggest win of the year.

Murray, White, and Forbes are also members of the youth movement, the "Four Musketeers" guard rotation (and that doesn't even factor in Keldon Johnson who will also shine in the future).

Break out the shades when you look at the future all you naysayers, you can either enjoy the view or just use them as a blindfold when, yet gain, weak pessimistic takes meet their inevitable fate (as in years past).

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs youth is fine, I don't think they are overrated.

Walker is at least a 2-way All-Star caliber player, possible franchise player - Ceiling: Dwayne Wade

White is a solid starting PG, 3rd option with close to All-NBA defense. He just needs to be more aggressive on offense and be more consistent from 3. But he's also got the starting job back just now and had this foot injury, so I assume it will take some games before he looks better. Right now he's just solid. - Ceiling: Mike Conley

Murray: People are too hard on him. He's coming off an ACL injury, it takes a full season to look like the player you were before the injury. He still doesn't have a jumper and it's often rimming out sideways, but he has clearly worked on it and has made some 3s already. He just needs to continue to let if fly and eventually he will get consistent with his shooting. His handle has also improved, but it's still to lose. I like his crossover and finishing at the rim though. With him it's all about his jumper. That would open up everything for him. So he could be anything from washed up Rajon Rondo to an efficient version of Westbrook. Tough to predict that right now.

Samanic is only 19 and the perfect modern day PF. His main weakness is not having enough muslce. I'll take that. And he's been bulking up since before the draft. He just has such a wide skill set, I think he can be a supreme role player like a Draymond Green. Not that his game is the same, but in that he can fill up the stat sheet in all 5 categories while spacing the floor and playing good defense. He can swith pick & rolls, he can shoot, he has good foot speed, he got moves off the dribble, he's a good passer and he's super young. - Ceiling: Kirilenko

Keldon Johnson can be an elite 3-and-D player. He needs some work hitting NBA 3s, but other than that his ability to get to the rim, draw fouls and finish through contact is something not a lot of role players can give you. It will be interesting to see if he can really be an elite defender in the NBA or just a solid one. That's not quite clear yet. I'd compare him to a PJ Tucker, but he could become an even better player than him

Weatherspoon was big time in college, he can shoot, he can defend. I think he's at least a bench player in the NBA - Ceiling: George Hill

Then we still have Poeltl, Lyles, Metu and if you want to count him as well, Bryn Forbes. That's pretty solid if you ask me.

[tmtcsc]

About taking you serious.

You're right.

Lol, 1 fucking game. I hope he keeps it up because the Spurs need someone to play like they care. I stand by everything I said.

[spurspl]

u r funny guys, one good game with poor defense team and u all giving him MIP XD Lets wait and see...

[SpaceCoast Spursfan]

Walker seems to have the highest ceiling although Samanic potentially could have similar ceiling, but way too early to judge him.

Murray has some major strengths, but also probably has the most glaring weaknesses of the 3 young guards playing now. Currently he would be best suited in an athletic defensive lineup that played aggressive defense and looked to run at every opportunity. Not sure Pop is willing to play that style or that Spurs have pieces to do so.

White is somewhat the anti-Murray in that he has no glaring weakness, but for now doesn't move the needle a lot in any one aspect of the game. He is definitely not moving great laterally whether it be the foot/plantar or an ankle currently that's the main culprit I am not sure. I have noticed the past couple games White is keeping his dribble and getting deeper into the paint. For most of the season he has been giving up his dribble way too early and often was just another dribble or two from sucking in the help D & creating opportunities for his teammates. I am somewhat concerned it took this long as this is an easy fix. Hopefully the coaches have been in his ear for a while and it was just a matter of him taking time to break a bad habit.

Would be nice if the Spurs could acquire a higher pick or another young player with potential of becoming all star caliber. I think they are close to having a very good future

[My Fault]

Good thing some of you are not GMs because otherwise Lonnie would have max contract in front of him after ONE good game, one :lol

[timvp]

that's one of the dumbest posts I've read all year

Possibly. Maybe an alternate universe proves I'm dead wrong.

But you think Walker would have played the same if Pop ignored his Kawhi hiding or you think 10 games was too much of a price to pay? Which angle are you disagree with, tbh?

[K...]

Lots of tanking teams,ala Phoenix have proven you can take better talent , play them in an unstructured environment, and waste their careers. Sacto, Orlando. Obviously what pop did isn't the only way to avoid being Phoenix but common experience should tell you guys that playing time alone doesn't make kids better.


2) in the early season there's more emphasis on practice. Lonny would "play" while benched

[RC_Drunkford]

Possibly. Maybe an alternate universe proves I'm dead wrong.

But you think Walker would have played the same if Pop ignored his Kawhi hiding or you think 10 games was too much of a price to pay? Which angle are you disagree with, tbh?

I'm saying his Kawhi hiding didn't deserve an 14 game benching for Marco Belinelli. He only got garbage time up to the Minnessota game. Pop could've easily sat him for one game, then let him play again and pull him when he's making mistakes on defense. That's what Pop did with Jonathon Simmons back in the day for example. That would've had the same effect. Bryn said in the interview he didn't recognize any change in his behaviour after Pop called Lonnie out publicly. You're acting like 14 losses out of 22 games ain't significant to the season. That might cost you the playoffs or home court advantage.

How about we do the same with Murray now? Or Samanic? Or Lyles? And lose another 14 games to teach a young guy a lesson. That's just plain stupid

[FkLA]

Possibly. Maybe an alternate universe proves I'm dead wrong.

But you think Walker would have played the same if Pop ignored his Kawhi hiding or you think 10 games was too much of a price to pay? Which angle are you disagree with, tbh?

Are we even sure that Lonnie finally getting his chance didn't have more to do with Belli just continuing to suck so much? You're acting like this was some master plan by Pop but I'm pretty sure Belli is still in the rotation if he was shooting 35% instead of 20%. Shit, I wouldn't put it past Pop to randomly bring Belli in before Lonnie in some upcoming games.

In recent years, he's shown that he's the type of stubborn idiot that won't go away from vets until he's forced to. Pau-Poetl, Belli-Lonnie, Wombat-White/Murray.

[timvp]

I'm saying his Kawhi hiding didn't deserve an 14 game benching for Marco Belinelli. He only got garbage time up to the Minnessota game. Pop could've easily sat him for one game, then let him play again and pull him when he's making mistakes on defense. That's what Pop did with Jonathon Simmons back in the day for example. That would've had the same effect.

Impossible to know, if we're being honest.

"This pear is perfectly ripe."

"See, I told you that you should have picked it last month!"


You're acting like 14 losses out of 22 games ain't significant to the season. That might cost you the playoffs or home court advantage. So Pop did permanent damage to the Spurs' championship aspirations this season?

[MannyIsGod]

Bait ignored.

1. it wasn't bait. I didn't even mention your lord and savior yet you automatically went there. That proves you know which side of the list he lies on. I don't need to point it out. It wasn't even my point.

2. Responding is not ignoring it. Your response gives away plenty of info. See #1.


I was simply pointing out why Pop gets the benefit of the doubt. I even said I"m not sure its right to do so right now. Instead of talking about that, you made it clear what you were thinking about and its fucking hilarious. Thanks for that.

[MannyIsGod]

Impossible to know, if we're being honest.


So Pop did permanent damage to the Spurs' championship aspirations this season?

For me, the Spurs championship this year was making the playoffs an continuing the streak. I think that Pop has done permanent damage to that by refusing to move way from Beli and not playing Murray and White together.

[TD 21]

:lmao

Have you heard of the basketball team called the Lakers? All their young players get hyped to the heavens. Currently, Alex Caruso is being billed as the balding, Aggie version of Dennis Johnson. Hell, Kyle Kuzma has been touted as a borderline superstar by some sections of the national media.

Dejounte Murray? Bill Simmons literally doesn't even know how to pronounce his name. About 99.9% of the national media couldn't pick him out of a lineup. What you smokin', cuz?

I knew you'd say that, but I still think it's Murray. I can't tell you how many prominent national media I've heard on podcasts over the past few years, act like he was a definite future star.

With a lot of the Lakers, it's because they're Lakers, sure, but also because of precious ppg. There's still a lot of old school and/or casual types who cover/follow this league and automatically equate that to stardom.




Spursfan today would have given up on Manu 20 games into the 03 season because he didn't shine early.

Who's giving up on anybody? More made up nonsense. That's the problem with you apologists; you think because of Ginobili, Parker and Scumbag, any young Spurs with upside beyond being a specialist, is automatically destined for stardom. You idiots are now pretending a one game sample size carries serious weight.



To be fair to OP, he did say Walker had potential but was glued to the bench. Pretty sure everyone was on the Walker hype train all season except Pop and the really hardcore sniffers. (See "Lonnie wasn't competitive" thread).


I think this thread is more about White and Murray at least that’s how I took it. In my comment earlier I mentioned I really couldnt say anything about their recent draftees who aren’t playing.


TBF to OP, he has expressed multiple times in different threads that Lonnie was the only one who looked the part of a star (as has Chinook at times) bc he has not just the athleticism but a good looking shot and natural scoring talent.


:tu But why let facts get in the way of a played out shtick?

[MannyIsGod]

I"d love to get a link to a single podcast where a national media says he's a definite future star. Forget lots of them, just provide one.

[timvp]

I knew you'd say that, but I still think it's Murray. I can't tell you how many prominent national media I've heard on podcasts over the past few years, act like he was a definite future star.

With a lot of the Lakers, it's because they're Lakers, sure, but also because of precious ppg. There's still a lot of old school and/or casual types who cover/follow this league and automatically equate that to stardom.

You can't seriously believe any of what you wrote, my man. You're smart enough to know that's all BS.

[TD 21]

:lmao At the cult followers riled up because they mistakenly equated overrated with bad.

[RC_Drunkford]

Impossible to know, if we're being honest.

"This pear is perfectly ripe."

"See, I told you that you should have picked it last month!"

So Pop did permanent damage to the Spurs' championship aspirations this season?

He did permanent damage to their playoff aspirations and overall seeding for sure. It was pretty clear Walker had that type of performance in em, as anybody except Popovich has advocated for him to get playing time. Even Rudy Gay said that publicly.

[K...]

Bait ignored.

He's obviously trying to get defenders of the Clippers and Grizzlies to bring up the biggest example of talent pop let get away






that right, he's talking about JaMychal Green

[J_Paco]

I know you really want to hop into this train, even though you were talking shit about Pop's rotation just last week, but the (related) issue I brought up in this thread is how they drafted.

And let's be honest here, you'll be back to bitching about Pop's rotations once this fluke win fades away.

The rotation and lineup choices by Pop are something that everyone, including myself, have been upset about, yes.

But, stating that a team that has drafted in the 20's for better part of two decades "could have done better" is being a revisionist. The chance of finding a Superstar like Giannis, Nephew or Kobe outside of the lottery is rarer, if not pure luck.

What the Spurs have done is find plays that they can cultivate and supplement the player of their (former) elite talent. Clearly, their draft strategy will need to change and they'll have go for more "reachs" than previously.

But, again whining about their recent draft history is complaining just to complain (which is your thing, so sorry). Especially when they've found numerous NBA talent in the late 1st, 2nd and in the undrafted FA market as well as acquiring 3 - which is really 4 including Nephew - future HOF'ers.

[J_Paco]

:lmao At the cult followers riled up because they mistakenly equated overrated with bad.

You are such a clown, man.

Start backpedaling and moving the goal posts once someone calls you on your bullshit.

We get it, the Spurs never do anything right, you are always right & the sole reason they've accomplished 20+ years of success is Tim Duncan.

Now, saying the young players are "overrated" (who is rating them?) is speaking about Murray only and isn't meant to mean something negative? Cause people refer to things as overrated as a good thing or compliment.

[Dejounte]

I would rather be optimistic and be wrong than be pessimistic and be right. TD 21 is the latter. He (along with others) live a sad life. Speaking of moving goal posts, you hit the nail on the head about TD 21 lmao. I want to be around here during next year's draft selection when he's crying about players he thinks hes right about when he was so damn wrong about Nassir freaking Little.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao At the cult followers riled up because they mistakenly equated overrated with bad.

Just going to wait for you to link one of the many podcasts were people have called Murray a sure thing future star. I mean the hype is crazy around Murray, which is why he settled on such a cheap extension.

[J_Paco]

I would rather be optimistic and be wrong than be pessimistic and be right. TD 21 is the latter. He (along with others) live a sad life. Speaking of moving goal posts, you hit the nail on the head about TD 21 lmao. I want to be around here during next year's draft selection when he's crying about players he thinks hes right about when he was so damn wrong about Nassir freaking Little.

He reminds me of that episode of South Park with the people of San Francisco sniffing their own farts and always thinking they're right......

But, be careful he'll call us "apologists" and say how right he is about everything in his next post.

*Sniff* *Sniff*

LOLOLOLOL

[MannyIsGod]

Who's giving up on anybody? More made up nonsense. That's the problem with you apologists; you think because of Ginobili, Parker and Scumbag, any young Spurs with upside beyond being a specialist, is automatically destined for stardom. You idiots are now pretending a one game sample size carries serious weight.



Yeah, we think that because the FO has a history of drafting well that they've continued to do. Thats fucking crazy of us, right? I mean the fact that the Spurs took 3 hall of famers outside of the lottery shouldn't give anyone confidence in the upside of the current crop of players at all. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that any of the current players will turn into a hall of famer but I'm also not saying they can't.

They're prospects. Maybe they turn out good, maybe they don't. But to say they're overrated is saying that they're not even prospects which is laughable. You can't find an NBA team that has drafted better than the Spurs and you're calling a lot of promising players overrated why exactly? Based on what? Dejounte could turn out to be nothing more than what he is now and he'd still be worth his contract. How the fuck is that overrated? He's ALREADY excellent on defense. Derek White is ALREADY an above average guard. You haven't even seen Luka play.

Its just fucking idiocy for god knows what reason. I guess so that if they don't pan out you can turn around and say I TOLD YOU SO. NO ONE has said that Murray is a lock to be a star yet you're making that claim because its the only way to make your bullshit seem legit. I forgot all the preseason all NBA projections we say for Murray. I forgot all the think pieces we say saying he should get a max extension. Missed the MVP Murray talk.

[TD 21]

You are such a clown, man.


Start backpedaling and moving the goal posts once someone calls you on your bullshit.

We get it, the Spurs never do anything right, you are always right & the sole reason they've accomplished 20+ years of success is Tim Duncan.

Now, saying the young players are "overrated" (who is rating them?) is speaking about Murray only and isn't meant to mean something negative? Cause people refer to things as overrated as a good thing or compliment.


This is the sort of made up nonsense I expect from you and people of your ilk.

No, it isn't meant to mean bad. I'll give you an example: Until advanced stats became main stream, Bryant was highly overrated historically . . . but he was still one of the best players of all-time.



Just going to wait for you to link one of the many podcasts were people have called Murray a sure thing future star. I mean the hype is crazy around Murray, which is why he settled on such a cheap extension.

Like I'm sifting through hours and hours of podcasts to find this (over a year ago, Lowe said, to paraphrase, someone from the Spurs told him their could be a new big 3 as soon as this season and Tim MacMahon talked about it recently on the Hoop Collective) and pacify you. What would I have to gain by making this up?




Yeah, we think that because the FO has a history of drafting well that they've continued to do. Thats fucking crazy of us, right? I mean the fact that the Spurs took 3 hall of famers outside of the lottery shouldn't give anyone confidence in the upside of the current crop of players at all. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that any of the current players will turn into a hall of famer but I'm also not saying they can't.

They're prospects. Maybe they turn out good, maybe they don't. But to say they're overrated is saying that they're not even prospects which is laughable. You can't find an NBA team that has drafted better than the Spurs and you're calling a lot of promising players overrated why exactly? Based on what? Dejounte could turn out to be nothing more than what he is now and he'd still be worth his contract. How the fuck is that overrated? He's ALREADY excellent on defense. Derek White is ALREADY an above average guard. You haven't even seen Luka play.

Its just fucking idiocy for god knows what reason. I guess so that if they don't pan out you can turn around and say I TOLD YOU SO. NO ONE has said that Murray is a lock to be a star yet you're making that claim because its the only way to make your bullshit seem legit. I forgot all the preseason all NBA projections we say for Murray. I forgot all the think pieces we say saying he should get a max extension. Missed the MVP Murray talk.

Again, you've spun this to suit your agenda. This was not about the front office's ability to draft/develop . . . now resume worshipping at their altar with the rest of your constituency, apologist.

[Dejounte]

He reminds me of that episode of South Park with the people of San Francisco sniffing their own farts and always thinking they're right......

But, be careful he'll call us "apologists" and say how right he is about everything in his next post.

*Sniff* *Sniff*

LOLOLOLOL

Holy shit you called it. This douche is predictable as fuck.

[MannyIsGod]

Like I'm sifting through hours and hours of podcasts to find this (over a year ago, Lowe said, to paraphrase, someone from the Spurs told him their could be a new big 3 as soon as this season and Tim MacMahon talked about it recently on the Hoop Collective) and pacify you. What would I have to gain by making this up?

Again, you've spun this to suit your agenda. This was not about the front office's ability to draft/develop . . . now resume worshipping at their altar with the rest of your constituency, apologist.




I can't tell you how many prominent national media I've heard on podcasts over the past few years, act like he was a definite future star

Apparently you're right, you can't tell us.

What would you gain from making it up? I don't know, what do you gain out of making such stupid threads? You tell me man. You're the one making the claims here. Even on the examples you provide, Lowe is talking about what someone from the Spurs told him that COULD happen. Its not his claim, its the person attached to the organization and they didn't say it was a definite thing. The Spurs do have a possible big 3. All 3 of their guards have all star potential. Will they probably all get there? No. But its laughable that this is your evidence that the're overrated.

Uhhhh, one time Lowe said someone thought they might be a big 3 this year.

LOL. Ok. Great point.

[ElNono]

The rotation and lineup choices by Pop are something that everyone, including myself, have been upset about, yes.

But, stating that a team that has drafted in the 20's for better part of two decades "could have done better" is being a revisionist. The chance of finding a Superstar like Giannis, Nephew or Kobe outside of the lottery is rarer, if not pure luck.

What the Spurs have done is find plays that they can cultivate and supplement the player of their (former) elite talent. Clearly, their draft strategy will need to change and they'll have go for more "reachs" than previously.

But, again whining about their recent draft history is complaining just to complain (which is your thing, so sorry). Especially when they've found numerous NBA talent in the late 1st, 2nd and in the undrafted FA market as well as acquiring 3 - which is really 4 including Nephew - future HOF'ers.

Except that wasn't my argument at all. My argument comes from some posters in other thread(s) lamenting that RC might not be involved in the draft process anymore.

And thus, the question I asked is was he really that good? And I backed it up with a list of the past 10 season's picks, which, IMO, it's not really all that impressive.

The bolded is the prototypical nonsense response about the team draft choices. If you're going to bring that up, at least have the decency of picking from the actual draft picks (which are on the list I posted) who are these 'numerous NBA talent'. You'll be hard pressed to find any that's still in the league.

I mean, 10 draft selections is a pretty god damn huge sample size. And if you gotta go back 20 years, then you're basically acknowledging they've been fairly poor the last 10+, which matters, because the Spurs have been in some sort of rebuilt-reload mode for the past 3+ seasons.

Look, I get that when Duncan and Manu were around, finding talent in the draft was difficult. I acknowledged that much. I also give them credit for targeting and trading for Kawhi even though Indiana beat them to the pick (which also brings another question, which is why the reluctance to trade up for a better pick, something I don't think I've ever seen the Spurs do in 20 years).

So the question is closer to: was RC that great when it comes to the ballclub draft strategy in recent times? I look at that list, and I'm not sure I can agree.

[RC_Drunkford]

you can question their draft choices during the Big 3 era, but to be fair ever since Duncan retired they have drafted extremely well. Murray, White, Walker are starter material. Keldon and Samanic look like future starters and even their 2nd rounders (Metu and Weatherspoon) look like they have a chance to become rotation guys. Can't really do much better tbh

[Sugus]

And thus, the question I asked is was he really that good? And I backed it up with a list of the past 10 season's picks, which, IMO, it's not really all that impressive.

Look, I get that when Duncan and Manu were around, finding talent in the draft was difficult.

The problem with this view of yours, Nono, Is that you completely fail to address the fact that the Spurs have been one of, if not the worst picking franchise from a # perspective. Sure, you can randomly take a look at the Spurs' and other team's drafting records and say "see! The Kings have drafted many more players that are still in the league, therefore they draft better!!" but it completely ignores the fact that the Kings, like almost every other team besides maybe the Blazers, have had multiple years of picking in the lottery or near it - which exponentially increases the chances of the player being successful/having a long career.

Lonnie Walker at 19th was the franchises' highest pick in what, 10+ years? and already showing signs of being an excellent choice. Why don't you make the exercise of making a list for other franchises' 20-25th picks over the last ten years, and then compare that to the Spurs' list? I bet you'll see surprising results. Drafting is always a crapshoot, but there's a much lower bust/success ratio when you're picking top 3 for 5+ years than taking 22-25 every year.

[spurspl]

you can question their draft choices during the Big 3 era, but to be fair ever since Duncan retired they have drafted extremely well. Murray, White, Walker are starter material. Keldon and Samanic look like future starters and even their 2nd rounders (Metu and Weatherspoon) look like they have a chance to become rotation guys. Can't really do much better tbh

yes, they could tank for higher picks and draft a waaay better prospects or already made star.

[TD 21]

Apparently you're right, you can't tell us.

What would you gain from making it up? I don't know, what do you gain out of making such stupid threads? You tell me man. You're the one making the claims here. Even on the examples you provide, Lowe is talking about what someone from the Spurs told him that COULD happen. Its not his claim, its the person attached to the organization and they didn't say it was a definite thing. The Spurs do have a possible big 3. All 3 of their guards have all star potential. Will they probably all get there? No. But its laughable that this is your evidence that the're overrated.

Uhhhh, one time Lowe said someone thought they might be a big 3 this year.

LOL. Ok. Great point.[/COLOR]

The gist was that, with the possible exception of Walker, they probably don't have a potential star to build around. Your master even agrees with that sentiment. Idiots like you think they have 3 guys with All-Star potential.

The larger point that you unsurprisingly missed was, if and when they get a high pick in '20, they need to look to select the best player available and not think they're set in the back court.

I know it's not his claim, genius. I said, both the media (Windhorst and Tjarks are two others I recall) and the organization has talked him up. Obviously, the latter fed into the former. By big three, the insinuation was that Murray would join Aldridge and DeRozan.

You don't even know what you're arguing about.

[RC_Drunkford]

yes, they could tank for higher picks and draft a waaay better prospects or already made star.

I said draft choices, not long term strategy of the franchise

[phxspurfan]

oof, OP. Not your best take

[itzsoweezee]

He did permanent damage to their playoff aspirations and overall seeding for sure. It was pretty clear Walker had that type of performance in em, as anybody except Popovich has advocated for him to get playing time. Even Rudy Gay said that publicly.

Notice how they're moving the goalposts now? Before the season, it was, the Spurs could be fighting for the 5 seed. Now, it's, the Spurs were not going to be championship contenders anyway, so who cares.

Popovich fucked this off-season and early part of this season, in more ways than one, but all you'll hear are excuses.

[ElNono]

The problem with this view of yours, Nono, Is that you completely fail to address the fact that the Spurs have been one of, if not the worst picking franchise from a # perspective. Sure, you can randomly take a look at the Spurs' and other team's drafting records and say "see! The Kings have drafted many more players that are still in the league, therefore they draft better!!" but it completely ignores the fact that the Kings, like almost every other team besides maybe the Blazers, have had multiple years of picking in the lottery or near it - which exponentially increases the chances of the player being successful/having a long career.

Lonnie Walker at 19th was the franchises' highest pick in what, 10+ years? and already showing signs of being an excellent choice. Why don't you make the exercise of making a list for other franchises' 20-25th picks over the last ten years, and then compare that to the Spurs' list? I bet you'll see surprising results. Drafting is always a crapshoot, but there's a much lower bust/success ratio when you're picking top 3 for 5+ years than taking 22-25 every year.

I don’t fail to address it, I’m just pointing out that when people talk about the drafting prowess, hopefully it’s closer than 20 years ago. And unless somebody wants to advance that the Spurs suck at developing talent (I wouldn’t agree with that), then it’s quite the indictment that despite the fact they’re good at developing talent, they still can’t seem to be able to turn that talent into NBA players.

Then there’s the whole euro situation that apparently nobody here wants to really touch.

I’m also not stating that they suck. The Kings suck, because they have both bad choices and shitty development. So it’s not like that, either.

[Sugus]

I don’t fail to address it, I’m just pointing out that when people talk about the drafting prowess, hopefully it’s closer than 20 years ago. And unless somebody wants to advance that the Spurs suck at developing talent (I wouldn’t agree with that), then it’s quite the indictment that despite the fact they’re good at developing talent, they still can’t seem to be able to turn that talent into NBA players.

Then there’s the whole euro situation that apparently nobody here wants to really touch.

I’m also not stating that they suck. The Kings suck, because they have both bad choices and shitty development. So it’s not like that, either.

I don't think the Spurs have "lost" drafting prowess, or at least haven't yet seen enough proof of anything definite pointing to it. When was the last time a Spurs pick truly busted, compared to the spot they were drafted at? You seem to think any player drafted by the Spurs in the 19-30th rank must have an NBA career just by virtue of being drafted by them. In reality, anything outside of the lottery is a crapshoot, and most franchises don't even hope to turn out rotational players out of every single pick.

And yet, in the last few consecutive drafts, the Spurs have drafted Dejounte, White, Lonnie, three excellent starting caliber young players with high ceilings, two of those with 29th (!) picks. Keldon and Luka, though it's way too early to tell, also look like they will be good contributions to the team. That's what, five picks in a row that'll turn out into serviceable players at the least? Going back, you have Nikola (good player but too expensive to bring over), SloMo, and then the first pick I'd call a bust, Livio Jean-Charles, the 28th (!) pick in '13. I'd love to hear your theory of how they can't turn their picks into NBA players, since the records kind of show the opposite - and once again, grab any other teams' mid-to-late first round picks history, and see how many of those players are still in the league. I'd be surprised to see any one of them having a better record than the Spurs in the last 10 years or so.

[jjktkk]

I don’t fail to address it, I’m just pointing out that when people talk about the drafting prowess, hopefully it’s closer than 20 years ago. And unless somebody wants to advance that the Spurs suck at developing talent (I wouldn’t agree with that), then it’s quite the indictment that despite the fact they’re good at developing talent, they still can’t seem to be able to turn that talent into NBA players.

Then there’s the whole euro situation that apparently nobody here wants to really touch.

I’m also not stating that they suck. The Kings suck, because they have both bad choices and shitty development. So it’s not like that, either.This makes no sense whatsoever. In the past several years, the Spurs have drafted and developed George Hill, Leonard, Cory Joseph, and Kyle Anderson. just the past 3 years they drafted White and Murray. All of these players were drafted in the late 1st round, that's quite impressive.

[J_Paco]

This makes no sense whatsoever. In the past several years, the Spurs have drafted and developed George Hill, Leonard, Cory Joseph, and Kyle Anderson. just the past 3 years they drafted White and Murray. All of these players were drafted in the late 1st round, that's quite impressive.


I don't think the Spurs have "lost" drafting prowess, or at least haven't yet seen enough proof of anything definite pointing to it. When was the last time a Spurs pick truly busted, compared to the spot they were drafted at? You seem to think any player drafted by the Spurs in the 19-30th rank must have an NBA career just by virtue of being drafted by them. In reality, anything outside of the lottery is a crapshoot, and most franchises don't even hope to turn out rotational players out of every single pick.

And yet, in the last few consecutive drafts, the Spurs have drafted Dejounte, White, Lonnie, three excellent starting caliber young players with high ceilings, two of those with 29th (!) picks. Keldon and Luka, though it's way too early to tell, also look like they will be good contributions to the team. That's what, five picks in a row that'll turn out into serviceable players at the least? Going back, you have Nikola (good player but too expensive to bring over), SloMo, and then the first pick I'd call a bust, Livio Jean-Charles, the 28th (!) pick in '13. I'd love to hear your theory of how they can't turn their picks into NBA players, since the records kind of show the opposite - and once again, grab any other teams' mid-to-late first round picks history, and see how many of those players are still in the league. I'd be surprised to see any one of them having a better record than the Spurs in the last 10 years or so.

He is a troll attempting to make an argument that doesn't exist. Complaining that a team that has drafted outside of the lottery for 20 years has missed a lot of picks is stupid. Of course they do, anyone drafted (even in the lottery) has a strong chance of not panning and being out of the league by the end of their rookie contract.

No, let's bitch that James Gist, Livio Jean-Charles & Nikola Mulitinov didn't pan out when many players have here or elsewhere.

[duncan2k5]

So Lonnie's game proves my point... Pop benching him didnt suddenly make him good... He was always good, but was benched for games on end based on a bad 5 minutes... A bad stretch that EVERY young player goes through... Shit, even vets... Pop simply has his favorites, and Lonnie isn't on that list

[My Fault]

So Lonnie's game proves my point... Pop benching him didnt suddenly make him good... He was always good, but was benched for games on end based on a bad 5 minutes... A bad stretch that EVERY young player goes through... Shit, even vets... Pop simply has his favorites, and Lonnie isn't on that list
Oh boy you guys are something else.. What game did you watch? He didn’t look good in this game which further proves that one game you’re clinging on to as proof is just that, ONE game. This is the NBA where scrubs have one good game all the time, Lonnie hasn’t proved anything. He had one good game against a terrible defense and some flashes but that’s all. Still some of you are ready to award him the MVP because you’re so desperate for any hope of a superstar

[ElNono]

This makes no sense whatsoever. In the past several years, the Spurs have drafted and developed George Hill, Leonard, Cory Joseph, and Kyle Anderson. just the past 3 years they drafted White and Murray. All of these players were drafted in the late 1st round, that's quite impressive.

Can I refer you to post #28 in this thread? https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282183&p=9997308&viewfull=1#post9997308

George Hill was drafted over 10 years ago. Leonard was drafted by Indiana, then traded on that night (for George Hill, but I do give the FO credit for targeting him)

That leaves Cory Joseph, Kyle Anderson, and White and Murray now (and too early to tell if Kyle will survive in this league, tbh... DeJuan Blair also had a swift stint..)

I don't mind people stating they disagree with me, I'm just asking for the sniffers that love to fluff the FO draft prowess to grab that list and explain what they like about them. All those Euro guys that have a relatively decent career in Europe, we've been told here on every draft that they're not scrubs, and have yet to see an NBA floor.

I also don't know why some posters claim I'm trolling, tbh. I didn't lie, I didn't make those picks nor made up that list. Not even sure why they want to make it personal, tossing insults around... silly too, like anybody is falling for that.

[duncan2k5]

Can I refer you to post #28 in this thread? https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282183&p=9997308&viewfull=1#post9997308

George Hill was drafted over 10 years ago. Leonard was drafted by Indiana, then traded on that night (for George Hill, but I do give the FO credit for targeting him)

That leaves Cory Joseph, Kyle Anderson, and White and Murray now (and too early to tell if Kyle will survive in this league, tbh... DeJuan Blair also had a swift stint..)

I don't mind people stating they disagree with me, I'm just asking for the sniffers that love to fluff the FO draft prowess to grab that list and explain what they like about them. All those Euro guys that have a relatively decent career in Europe, we've been told here on every draft that they're not scrubs, and have yet to see an NBA floor.

I also don't know why some posters claim I'm trolling, tbh. I didn't lie, I didn't make those picks nor made up that list. Not even sure why they want to make it personal, tossing insults around... silly too, like anybody is falling for that.

Thts what they do when they have no argument

[acoelho1]

So Lonnie's game proves my point... Pop benching him didnt suddenly make him good... He was always good, but was benched for games on end based on a bad 5 minutes... A bad stretch that EVERY young player goes through... Shit, even vets... Pop simply has his favorites, and Lonnie isn't on that list

It's not about favorites. Pop always plays the long game when it comes to young players with the 1 exception being Duncan. You must not recall Parker and Ginobili being benched at various stages early in their career. Look at Patty as another example, he was glued to the bench, towel waving before he got his opportunity. Having said that, do I agree with Lonnie not playing more minutes, no but let's not pretend Pop doesn't have a plan in mind to get Lonnie to flourish. You can disagree with his strategy but Pop still wants the same end result.

[jjktkk]

Can I refer you to post #28 in this thread? https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282183&p=9997308&viewfull=1#post9997308

George Hill was drafted over 10 years ago. Leonard was drafted by Indiana, then traded on that night (for George Hill, but I do give the FO credit for targeting him)

That leaves Cory Joseph, Kyle Anderson, and White and Murray now (and too early to tell if Kyle will survive in this league, tbh... DeJuan Blair also had a swift stint..)

I don't mind people stating they disagree with me, I'm just asking for the sniffers that love to fluff the FO draft prowess to grab that list and explain what they like about them. All those Euro guys that have a relatively decent career in Europe, we've been told here on every draft that they're not scrubs, and have yet to see an NBA floor.

I also don't know why some posters claim I'm trolling, tbh. I didn't lie, I didn't make those picks nor made up that list. Not even sure why they want to make it personal, tossing insults around... silly too, like anybody is falling for that.

GTFO, you're trolling. WTF are you exactly expecting with PATFO perennially picking in the bottom of the 1st round year after after year? And I'll gladly wear my sniffer badge. You're wannabe Mav Krew would get laughed at endlessly in public for the shit you and your cyber pals spew on here.

[rascal]

Most Spurs have always been overrated on this site.

[rascal]

A good list will list all the players passed over for who they chose to draft instead. All the missed opportunities on draft night.

[JeffDuncan]

A good list will list all the players passed over for who they chose to draft instead. All the missed opportunities on draft night.

The first name there is Matisse Thybulle, who's playing this year, about 16 min per game for the 76ers, a better team than the Spurs.

[ElNono]

GTFO, you're trolling. WTF are you exactly expecting with PATFO perennially picking in the bottom of the 1st round year after after year? And I'll gladly wear my sniffer badge. You're wannabe Mav Krew would get laughed at endlessly in public for the shit you and your cyber pals spew on here.

I personally didn't expect much, but I sure as hell don't expect somebody to tell me they're exceptional at drafting either, which is what I was calling out.

Suddenly, if you said they're not not all that great picking, you're trolling and a mav krew? Why, because they lucked out with Manu in the 2nd round 20 years ago?

No takers yet from the fanbois to grab that list and defend those picks.

[jjktkk]

I personally didn't expect much, but I sure as hell don't expect somebody to tell me they're exceptional at drafting either, which is what I was calling out.

Suddenly, if you said they're not not all that great picking, you're trolling and a mav krew? Why, because they lucked out with Manu in the 2nd round 20 years ago?

No takers yet from the fanbois to grab that list and defend those picks.

I've already mentioned the names of the players that were successful that the Spurs drafted in the past 10 years. You moved the goalposts on my answer. You mentioned Manu, but you won't give PATFO credit for draft him. Guess Parker doesn't count either huh? Sad how far you've fallen on here El.

[ElNono]

I've already mentioned the names of the players that were successful that the Spurs drafted in the past 10 years. You moved the goalposts on my answer. You mentioned Manu, but you won't give PATFO credit for draft him. Guess Parker doesn't count either huh? Sad how far you've fallen on here El.

So Corey Joseph, Fathead, White and Murray? Let's add Walker in there too, just in case.

My issue with living in nostalgia-land is that very rarely somebody keeps a job for what they did 20 years ago. I don't know how many jobs you had where you can just get away with being average, if that, for 5-10 years in an extremely competitive market. This is a business after all.

Plus, the franchise is not what it was 20 years ago. Drafting and developing is much, much more important now that there's no Duncan to hold their hands, and put some makeup on maybe not so clear cut decisions.

Now, if the argument is that this FO is much better at identifying and trading for talent, that's fair.

[duncan2k5]

It's not about favorites. Pop always plays the long game when it comes to young players with the 1 exception being Duncan. You must not recall Parker and Ginobili being benched at various stages early in their career. Look at Patty as another example, he was glued to the bench, towel waving before he got his opportunity. Having said that, do I agree with Lonnie not playing more minutes, no but let's not pretend Pop doesn't have a plan in mind to get Lonnie to flourish. You can disagree with his strategy but Pop still wants the same end result.

Pop never benched Parker for games on end... He only would bench him during a game... Secondly Pop isn't the same... To act like 2001 Pop and 2019 Pop operate the same is dishonest....

Thirdly yall said he had a long term plan for many players that ended up being traded... I don't think he is this mastermind... I just think he doesn’t think Lonnie is that good and would make the team better... Ja Morant would be in Austin if he were here...Curry would never be as good as he is because like I keep saying, the first time he pulls up from 40 on a fast break, he would be benched for months, and would never do it again... Pop neutered players... So the psychological effects of Pop benching young players causes them to be passive because they are afraid of not playing again...

None of the big 3 were ever benched for ten plus games for any reason, nevertheless making a mistake... Kawhi was never done that way... This is recent behavior from Pop, and we have yet to see a player progress at a pace that young players on other teams have progressed in a similar span of time... They give their players the freedom to play their game and make mistakes

[duncan2k5]

A good list will list all the players passed over for who they chose to draft instead. All the missed opportunities on draft night.

That list is long as hell... I've always said that... We passed over a shit ton of players over the years (along with players we drafted and gave away before they got to play with us that ended up being decent for other teams)

[Sugus]

That list is long as hell... I've always said that... We passed over a shit ton of players over the years (along with players we drafted and gave away before they got to play with us that ended up being decent for other teams)

This might be the single most fucking stupid argument against the FO on the forum. As in, legitimately retarded. You're gonna criticize the franchises' drafting over players they didn't get, with their single draft pick, after these players' careers have already panned out? Are you familiar with the concept of "hindsight" or would you like an explanation?

[Sugus]

So Corey Joseph, Fathead, White and Murray? Let's add Walker in there too, just in case.

My issue with living in nostalgia-land is that very rarely somebody keeps a job for what they did 20 years ago. I don't know how many jobs you had where you can just get away with being average, if that, for 5-10 years in an extremely competitive market. This is a business after all.

Plus, the franchise is not what it was 20 years ago. Drafting and developing is much, much more important now that there's no Duncan to hold their hands, and put some makeup on maybe not so clear cut decisions.

Now, if the argument is that this FO is much better at identifying and trading for talent, that's fair.

So White was picked 20 years ago, huh? Also Lonnie, who half the forum was knoblicking after the Rockets game? Developing consecutive 29th picks into starting caliber players seems like fine development to me, I seriously don't know what you're expecting but you're delusional to expect anything else. If Lonnie shows any more consistent scoring similar to what he did against the Rockets, it'll be a massive drafting win as well. But surely you'll be here complaining about Pop not giving him minutes, instead of praising the FO who picked him in the first place... Sad.

[ElNono]

So White was picked 20 years ago, huh? Also Lonnie, who half the forum was knoblicking after the Rockets game? Developing consecutive 29th picks into starting caliber players seems like fine development to me, I seriously don't know what you're expecting but you're delusional to expect anything else. If Lonnie shows any more consistent scoring similar to what he did against the Rockets, it'll be a massive drafting win as well. But surely you'll be here complaining about Pop not giving him minutes, instead of praising the FO who picked him in the first place... Sad.

I'll have zero problem to give them credit for Murray, White and Lonnie, said as much already, but it's too early right now. Bryn Forbes 'has been developed into a starting caliber player' too, but is he really a starter? maybe he is for a 9-14 team.

Are you gonna step up your game, pick up that list for the past 10 years, and tell us what you liked about those picks the FO made?

[duncan2k5]

This might be the single most fucking stupid argument against the FO on the forum. As in, legitimately retarded. You're gonna criticize the franchises' drafting over players they didn't get, with their single draft pick, after these players' careers have already panned out? Are you familiar with the concept of "hindsight" or would you like an explanation?

their JOB is talent evaluation...so the point the person who i was responding to and agreeing with is making is that our supposedly elite talent evaluators have missed MANY good to elite players in the draft...it's not a hard concept...keep up

[duncan2k5]

I'll have zero problem to give them credit for Murray, White and Lonnie, said as much already, but it's too early right now. Bryn Forbes 'has been developed into a starting caliber player' too, but is he really a starter? maybe he is for a 9-14 team.

Are you gonna step up your game, pick up that list for the past 10 years, and tell us what you liked about those picks the FO made?

he wont

[Sugus]

I'll have zero problem to give them credit for Murray, White and Lonnie, said as much already, but it's too early right now. Bryn Forbes 'has been developed into a starting caliber player' too, but is he really a starter? maybe he is for a 9-14 team.

Are you gonna step up your game, pick up that list for the past 10 years, and tell us what you liked about those picks the FO made?

You just don't get the concept that not every pick can be good, huh? Once again; the Spurs have never been picking in the lottery, where there's an exponentially increased chance of success, so evaluating their picks in a vacuum without at least comparing them to other franchises' mid to late round picks is a foolish task. They've hit on prospects more often than not, but they cannot control how a prospect develops even after drafting them, not to mention being locked out of the top talent pool - which means that each successful pick for the Spurs is a steal that a dozen+ teams passed over.

You can't give the Spurs credit for any of this, instead hating them for the slightest misstep. DJ has already far exceeded expectations for a 29th pick even if he's not playing as well as we'd love him to, and White also had an above-average season last year dragging the Spurs to the playoffs. Have you looked up what other teams do with their 29th picks, how likely they are statistically to produce quality players, or are you bashing the Spurs out of your ass?

[Prime BEEF]

This might be the single most fucking stupid argument against the FO on the forum. As in, legitimately retarded. You're gonna criticize the franchises' drafting over players they didn't get, with their single draft pick, after these players' careers have already panned out? Are you familiar with the concept of "hindsight" or would you like an explanation?
This is just dumb. It’s not hindsight! There were many discussions on ST about the talent available at that pick and there wasn’t a giant Luka army out there for a reason.

as soon as the FO made the pick. We knew immediately that the FO left money on the table and passed up better players or those players that had a better chance of contributing to an nba team than luka. This happens every year and gets old.

its only hindsight for those that aren’t paying attention to the players throughout the college season.

[tholdren]

You just don't get the concept that not every pick can be good, huh? Once again; the Spurs have never been picking in the lottery, where there's an exponentially increased chance of success, so evaluating their picks in a vacuum without at least comparing them to other franchises' mid to late round picks is a foolish task. They've hit on prospects more often than not, but they cannot control how a prospect develops even after drafting them, not to mention being locked out of the top talent pool - which means that each successful pick for the Spurs is a steal that a dozen+ teams passed over.

You can't give the Spurs credit for any of this, instead hating them for the slightest misstep. DJ has already far exceeded expectations for a 29th pick even if he's not playing as well as we'd love him to, and White also had an above-average season last year dragging the Spurs to the playoffs. Have you looked up what other teams do with their 29th picks, how likely they are statistically to produce quality players, or are you bashing the Spurs out of your ass?

Its entertainment. None of these guys are as good as advertised. But it is disheartening to draft a pg who cant even play the position.

[ElNono]

You just don't get the concept that not every pick can be good, huh? Once again; the Spurs have never been picking in the lottery, where there's an exponentially increased chance of success, so evaluating their picks in a vacuum without at least comparing them to other franchises' mid to late round picks is a foolish task. They've hit on prospects more often than not, but they cannot control how a prospect develops even after drafting them, not to mention being locked out of the top talent pool - which means that each successful pick for the Spurs is a steal that a dozen+ teams passed over.

You can't give the Spurs credit for any of this, instead hating them for the slightest misstep. DJ has already far exceeded expectations for a 29th pick even if he's not playing as well as we'd love him to, and White also had an above-average season last year dragging the Spurs to the playoffs. Have you looked up what other teams do with their 29th picks, how likely they are statistically to produce quality players, or are you bashing the Spurs out of your ass?

:lol so you basically agree they're not really exceptional at it. My beef is not that they're average at picking talent, is with the idea that somehow they excel at it, as it was brought up. That's why I brought up the list and still no takers on how those picks really convey the idea that the FO has been doing a bang up job picking where they were picking.

[GAustex]

Too bad the kid from Oklahoma State snapped his foot. He was showing signs of being a keeper on the wing.

[Sugus]

:lol so you basically agree they're not really exceptional at it. My beef is not that they're average at picking talent, is with the idea that somehow they excel at it, as it was brought up. That's why I brought up the list and still no takers on how those picks really convey the idea that the FO has been doing a bang up job picking where they were picking.

Who the fuck said exceptional? They have gotten through years of mid and low level picks by consistently drafting solid role players out of mid round picks, with the occasional home run steal, no one's saying they're the best drafting FO ever except for your stupid strawman. RC and the Spurs have drafted well enough to where I'd love to see what they do with a lottery pick, but beyond that, it's the combination of both drafting AND development which makes the Spurs special; some franchises have one or the other, hardly any has both. And again, what a stupid idea to bring up a drafting list when you could get a similar but probably worse one done for every franchise... Almost like drafting 19-20yo players on their potential isn't a surefire thing. Stupid thread to begin with, tbh.

[ElNono]

Who the fuck said exceptional? They have gotten through years of mid and low level picks by consistently drafting solid role players out of mid round picks, with the occasional home run steal, no one's saying they're the best drafting FO ever except for your stupid strawman. RC and the Spurs have drafted well enough to where I'd love to see what they do with a lottery pick, but beyond that, it's the combination of both drafting AND development which makes the Spurs special; some franchises have one or the other, hardly any has both. And again, what a stupid idea to bring up a drafting list when you could get a similar but probably worse one done for every franchise... Almost like drafting 19-20yo players on their potential isn't a surefire thing. Stupid thread to begin with, tbh.

My first post in this thread mentions exactly why I brought this up, and that's a lot of words to say you're not touching that list with a 10 foot pole, tbh... :lol

You have to make up your mind. Either that list looks average like every other ball club, or the Spurs 'drafting AND development' makes them 'special' (whatever that means). You can't have both on the same paragraph. Pick a lane and come back.

[ElNono]

BTW, these are the comments I was alluding to:


I'm interested to know how involved RC is. Man if he's not drafting anymore this is going to be a long long stretch of the team sucking.


Agreed. RC's drafting prowess is the best thing this franchise has going for it, tbh.

[Slippy]

Pop never benched Parker for games on end... He only would bench him during a game... Secondly Pop isn't the same... To act like 2001 Pop and 2019 Pop operate the same is dishonest....

Thirdly yall said he had a long term plan for many players that ended up being traded... I don't think he is this mastermind... I just think he doesn’t think Lonnie is that good and would make the team better... Ja Morant would be in Austin if he were here...Curry would never be as good as he is because like I keep saying, the first time he pulls up from 40 on a fast break, he would be benched for months, and would never do it again... Pop neutered players... So the psychological effects of Pop benching young players causes them to be passive because they are afraid of not playing again...

None of the big 3 were ever benched for ten plus games for any reason, nevertheless making a mistake... Kawhi was never done that way... This is recent behavior from Pop, and we have yet to see a player progress at a pace that young players on other teams have progressed in a similar span of time... They give their players the freedom to play their game and make mistakes

Agree.

[TD 21]

The antiquated, senility of this organization has seeped into the player development the past few years.

There's countless examples of random players showing significant improvement and modernizing their game in short order, yet it's taken Murray 3+ years and 4 off seasons and he still has a loose handle and can't shoot spot up 3s, let alone pull up ones. Meanwhile, White inexplicably lacks confidence and doesn't shoot 3s in volume. In fact, none of the youth does.