Film Room: Lonnie Walker IV's growth shown in two plays

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/lonnie-walker-iv-transformation-houston-rockets-videos-film-room/

tl;dr: Walker is getting more assertive.

[Seventyniner]

Nice write-up. :bobo

Is it possible that Lonnie has had the light bulb turn on in his head since that Clippers game? Or is it really on on Pop?

[TheSpurglar]

Thanks for the article. That last clip especially speaks volumes to the growth Walker's undergone from the Clippers game to last night.

Believe in his postgame comments, Walker specifically mentioned effort and consistency. My guess is Pop's been asking for/demanding those things, and Lonnie is working harder to bring 'em when his number is called. Hopefully Pop rewards him for it.

[phxspurfan]

Nice, and funny selection of the Harden play. Very obvious bullshit foul to highlight

[JPB]

Thanks for the article. That last clip especially speaks volumes to the growth Walker's undergone from the Clippers game to last night.

Believe in his postgame comments, Walker specifically mentioned effort and consistency. My guess is Pop's been asking for/demanding those things, and Lonnie is working harder to bring 'em when his number is called. Hopefully Pop rewards him for it.

Would you suggest a 5 time NBA champion, top 5 coach in history known for developing young players knew what he was doing with Walker?

[alpha_HaZE]

Nice article, thanks for posting :)

[Fireball]

Normally I miss some defensive stuff when watching games but I realized quickly how Lonnie picked up Harden every time in transition ... he made sure he competed

[gilmor]

Nice write-up. :bobo

Is it possible that Lonnie has had the light bulb turn on in his head since that Clippers game? Or is it really on on Pop?

It's on Pop... but Pop needs to be harder.. else Walker will become Nephew..

[tbdog]

Man that is a good writeup. Who knows if Pop was pissed over those 2 things in particular, but who the hell remembers those two plays and writes about? Timvp that's who.

[r0drig0lac]

:bobo very good

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Nice write-up. :bobo

Is it possible that Lonnie has had the light bulb turn on in his head since that Clippers game? Or is it really on on Pop?

Everyone who’s managed a group of people in whatever field will tell you it’s a process and it depends on a lot variables, including the manager/coach himself, the worker/player, as well as other independent factors such as work environment, etc. However, that’s a bit too grey for the black and white ST discussions lately. You’re either an edgelord and everything good is despite of the FO or you’re a sniffer. But truth is it’s all about the process and neither of us can tell who and how much exactly is responsible for any of it.

Hopefully this is not a one-off for Lonnie because he’s talented and is exactly the type of talent this Spurs team needs.

[Dejounte]

In before the 5th graders come in this thread and hurl insults just because they disagree with you and because they don't like their own damn team that they post so much about on a daily basis lmao

[Dejounte]

Everyone who’s managed a group of people in whatever field will tell you it’s a process and it depends on a lot variables, including the manager/coach himself, the worker/player, as well as other independent factors such as work environment, etc. However, that’s a bit too grey for the black and white ST discussions lately. You’re either an edgelord and everything good is despite of the FO or you’re a sniffer. But truth is it’s all about the process and neither of us can tell who and how much exactly is responsible for any of it.

Hopefully this is not a one-off for Lonnie because he’s talented and is exactly the type of talent this Spurs team needs.

Exactly. I'd wager that most of the people who criticize this process never worked in an office / professional setting in their life. But that's not surprising by the lack of logic that gets spewed around here. Yet they expect people to have faith in their obvious inexperience when they say shit like "this would have worked if so and so this!". How delusional do you have to be to believe in your crap? People ignore the complexities and just go straight to black and white just like you said.

[BillMc]

Great write up. Thanks.

Lonnie is such a nice guy, someone needed to push him to be assertive. Pop's done that. Let's hope Lonnie keeps it up because clearly he's the most athletic guy on the team (even more than DJ).

[DPG21920]

Nice write up - more than anything this was a spark and a really bright spot needed as the feeling of a wasted season was setting in. Wonder what these two wins (LAC & HOU) do to sway the thinking?

Pops comments lend themselves to the belief that they are going to hang on as long as they can to this version of the team (“‘this is the team we think we have” comments meaning they think they can win with this group). It also will probably give them major pause throwing Lonnie into any deal in order to move other players if/when it comes to that.

[RD2191]

In before the 5th graders come in this thread and hurl insults just because they disagree with you and because they don't like their own damn team that they post so much about on a daily basis lmao

Shut your bitch ass up.

[KobesAchilles]

I liked Pop calling out Lonnie. Hell he used to make TP cry and I was like yeah yell at him some more :lol
What I didn’t like was benching him for like 5 games bc of the mistakes. The two actions didn’t match up. Lonnie has improved though and that’s on Pop. Still we are only 2 games out of the 8th seed so who knows?

[DPG21920]

I feel we did see some of this already from Lonnie; even before against Harden in the pre season.

[ginobilized]

Great compare/contrast article!

This one game has caused me to reconsider what is happening with this team. Pop's comments after the game ("this is the team we think we have") indicates that the execution has not happened, yet. One great way to get players to execute is to allow them to lose by executing poorly. It makes me think that the team will find its identity through effort and execution. That's a big learning curve. The fact that the team did not cave also tells me that they are not tanking in any way. LWIV had a breakout game, no doubt. That is exciting! He will get benched some more and yelled at this season (Sorry Pop haters). I doubt that he has learned everything he needs to know in that one game. His future is incredibly bright. His growth between Halloween and now is remarkable. I loved that he mentioned that he was playing harder in practice. That gives the team and coaches a chance to see what he is made of and his breakout game was very well-timed.

LWIV needs to guard his man and take it hard to the basket and he will get more time on the floor. Remembering 2 things is tough for most 20 yr olds, let's hope he's up for that challenge. 20 yrs old, people!!!!

[Sugus]

I feel we did see some of this already from Lonnie; even before against Harden in the pre season.

I've read this take a lot. The key is consistency and effort, not natural ability. We all knew of Lonnie's athleticism and gifts (Pop, watching him on practice, more so than anyone) - yet where was this aggressiveness and drive in the Clippers game? Lonnie had already shown flashes in preseason... Yet he vanished. Shied away from his defensive duty, shied away from going at the rim on offense. Did Pop need to bench him for 5 straight games for that one bad performance? Maybe, maybe not. But the fact remains that the Lonnie who played against the Clippers is not the same one who scored 28 on the Rockets. We can go back and forth over how much of that is on Pop's coaching and how much on Lonnie's own internal growth - the results speak for themselves. I'm actually expecting him to get benched again in a game or two once his effort inevitable wanes, tbh. Tough love, earn your minutes kind of coaching.

[313]

20 yrs old, people!!!!

[Slippy]

Great compare/contrast article!

This one game has caused me to reconsider what is happening with this team. Pop's comments after the game ("this is the team we think we have") indicates that the execution has not happened, yet. One great way to get players to execute is to allow them to lose by executing poorly. It makes me think that the team will find its identity through effort and execution. That's a big learning curve. The fact that the team did not cave also tells me that they are not tanking in any way. LWIV had a breakout game, no doubt. That is exciting! He will get benched some more and yelled at this season (Sorry Pop haters). I doubt that he has learned everything he needs to know in that one game. His future is incredibly bright. His growth between Halloween and now is remarkable. I loved that he mentioned that he was playing harder in practice. That gives the team and coaches a chance to see what he is made of and his breakout game was very well-timed.



Good point about execution and Team identity.

I'm fed up up Bryn and Patty running plays for themselves. When you have the likes of LA, Demar and Lonnie on the court. They have to be initiators of the offense who will make things happen. The shooters have to be ready. Remember, the primary reason the midgets are on the floor is for spacing.

[ZeusWillJudge]

I really hope that these two plays weren't any part of the reason why Pop glued Lonnie to the bench. Lonnie isn't perfect in either one, but singling him out is misguided - especially on the offensive end. It's not even a gray area. (If anybody wants to argue with me about it, look at the video pictures and argue with those.)

In the first play, against the Clippers, Jakob has given up position to Montrezl Harrell and is already all but out of this play. This is exactly the thing that you (TIMVP) and I both commented about in that game thread that winds up with Jakob giving up offensive boards. On this play, it also means that he will be able to do nothing to help Lonnie get to the rim.

In the second play, against the Rockets, Jakob has taken up solid position on Harden under the basket. Not only is it much better rebound technique, he is also in position to seal for Lonnie's drive into the paint.

https://i.postimg.cc/2jM6smKp/position1.jpg

Here, just a few frames later, Lonnie has headed into the paint on both occasions. You can see that Jakob has Harden on his back, and sealed away from Lonnie's drive. Harden's only hope is to reach around Poeltl as Lonnie goes by. Harrell, on the other hand, has slipped unimpeded away from Jakob, and is in excellent defensive position to cut Lonnie off. Poeltl is a spectator.

https://i.postimg.cc/wjfTkpJb/position2.jpg


And the final results: Harrell has forced Lonnie beyond the basket, and is body to body with his hands up. The only way Lonnie is going to get that "dunk or easy layup" is if he figures out a way to make Montrezl Harrell disappear. If he goes aggressively back into Harrell, he could get a whistle since Harrell is inside the circle - but if he doesn't get respect from the zebras, this is likely a dry possession. Poeltl really wishes there was something he could do to help - but he was out of this from the start.

Now in the second picture, Poeltl's seal on Harden has left Lonnie with nothing between him and the rim but air. The only unfortunate thing is that he left his feet too early as this time he really could have had that dunk or easy layup. Instead he puts up a little floater that bounces around and, fortunately, falls.

If you (or Pop) want to blame Lonnie for anything in that play against the Clippers, it should be for not recognizing that he's playing 1-on-1 against Harrell, who is in perfect position to defend the rim - which is what Harrell is there to do.


https://i.postimg.cc/SQd09Gcg/position3.jpg

[Mugen]

Nice article. Looks like Lonnie is going to have some great memories for when he's relegated back to the bench :lol

[ZeusWillJudge]

I don't have time to dissect the defensive clips, but I will later. But if you look at the play with Leonard, watch Forbes. Lonnie is moving over to pick up Autist, and Forbes throws his right arm out to signal that he's got the sideline, and Lonnie moves back toward the middle of the floor. Forbes' job at that point was to do just that - cut off the sideline and force Autist back toward the middle. Instead, Bryn takes up inside position and sags, and the play goes to hell from there.

It's bad D by Lonnie, but the root cause is the worst defender in the league. And if you back a few seconds and look closely, it's pretty obvious that Kawhi came down the floor looking for Forbes, the victim of choice for offensive players everywhere.

While you're at it, look at the other clip around the 10 second mark. Exactly what the fuck is Bryn doing putting his right arm out onto Lonnie's right hip? Then keep watching Forbes. If anything, he gets in the way of Lonnie staying in front of Harden. And finally, that "unfortunate" whistle was on Bryn for reaching and grabbing Harden's arm in a futile gesture.

If anyone needs to be benched, and if benching can really make a player improve, Bryn Forbes needs to have a wood-grain ass.

[gameFACE]

Of the young core LWIV has the potential to impact the team way more more than Murray and White long term. And I like the latter. Not taking sides. Hopefully LW can develop into a 2006 Dwayne Wade type who plays defense.

[exstatic]

I don't have time to dissect the defensive clips, but I will later. But if you look at the play with Leonard, watch Forbes. Lonnie is moving over to pick up Autist, and Forbes throws his right arm out to signal that he's got the sideline, and Lonnie moves back toward the middle of the floor. Forbes' job at that point was to do just that - cut off the sideline and force Autist back toward the middle. Instead, Bryn takes up inside position and sags, and the play goes to hell from there.

It's bad D by Lonnie, but the root cause is the worst defender in the league. And if you back a few seconds and look closely, it's pretty obvious that Kawhi came down the floor looking for Forbes, the victim of choice for offensive players everywhere.

While you're at it, look at the other clip around the 10 second mark. Exactly what the fuck is Bryn doing putting his right arm out onto Lonnie's right hip? Then keep watching Forbes. If anything, he gets in the way of Lonnie staying in front of Harden. And finally, that "unfortunate" whistle was on Bryn for reaching and grabbing Harden's arm in a futile gesture.

If anyone needs to be benched, and if benching can really make a player improve, Bryn Forbes needs to have a wood-grain ass.

You don't let the defensive player dictate that action. Lonnie knows his cover. Simply take Load Management, and wave Bryn off.

[BillMc]

Of the young core LWIV has the potential to impact the team way more more than Murray and White long term. And I like the latter. Not taking sides. Hopefully LW can develop into a 2006 Dwayne Wade type who plays defense.

Gotta agree on this. White (like Forbes) is relatively old for a "young" guy and I think he's nearer to his ceiling. White just needs to get healthy. Murray, while I like his leadership and rebounding, has now had 4 seasons to work on shooting and his playmaking instincts. Is he really much better than his 2nd year? Even with the injury setting him back, he's getting perilously close to plateauing. As Bill Parcels once said. "Eventually, he is what he is." Hope I'm wrong.

Lonnie, if he's got the drive, has star potential. KJ and Luka, words still out on them of course.

[Trill Clinton]

Good shit. It was evident early on that Lonnie was nervous whenever he entered the game. He was lost on offense at times and nowhere as aggressive on offense as he had been in SL. Glad he took the spanking from Pop and learned from it. Hopefully he can keep it up.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Awesome stuff. I’ve actually come away far more impressed with his defensive potential than what I initially gave Lonnie credit for.

[BillMc]

Awesome stuff. I’ve actually come away far more impressed with his defensive potential than what I initially gave Lonnie credit for.

Me too. I thought he was a defensive liability despite his physical gifts. But he proved me wrong. Really like the way he manned up and covered Harden. Lightyears from hiding from Nephew. Pop got through to him.

[JeffDuncan]

...
If anyone needs to be benched, and if benching can really make a player improve, Bryn Forbes needs to have a wood-grain ass.

Thou speakest wisely, oh god of the thunderbolt.

In addition to what you mention, in the Clips game where Lonnie made the pass, it was to Beli at the arc, with both a wide open passing lane, and a wide open shooter. The pass was the right move, in more ways than one.

In the clip where Lonnie took the ball on in, the potential pass recipients were DDR - pass the ball out to DDR at the arc?? Rofl! - or Forbes in the corner. There were defenders in each of those passing lanes. The path to the basket was open, as you have so ably elucidated, and the passing lane to Forbes was blocked.

[RD2191]

Lonnie will be a star one day, hopefully he'll get a coach that doesn't hold him back soon.

[timvp]

Nice write-up. :bobo

Is it possible that Lonnie has had the light bulb turn on in his head since that Clippers game? Or is it really on on Pop?

I'd give credit to Lonnie first. It looks like Pop might have had something to do with it but it's impossible to know for sure.

[Sugus]

You don't let the defensive player dictate that action. Lonnie knows his cover. Simply take Load Management, and wave Bryn off.

Precisely this. No matter how the plays went, it's obvious Lonnie was tasked with defending both Kawhi and Harden. He settled with letting Forbes, shit defender, take up Kawhi for an obvious score, which is what Pop meant by non-competitive. But during the Rockets game, he called for Harden on every defensive play - I don't think I saw anyone else guard Harden without a pick set to hinder Lonnie. The difference in attitude is very clear, and I hope we can see this kind of effort from Lonnie consistently.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

It certainly appears to me that Pop made an impact. Some of it is certainly Lonnie's growth in knowing where to be on the floor, but defense it effort, and I think your example of him guarding Kawhi vs. Harden clearly shows that he's efforting way more on than he had been previously. Whenever I played on a new team, if I was still uncertain on offense, my goal was to crush it on the defensive side of the ball until I got my offensive footing. Lonnie was lackadaisical on both offense and defense in that Clips game which makes me think Pop's tough love really was effective in getting Lonnie to understand what it takes.

[timvp]

In the first play, against the Clippers, Jakob has given up position to Montrezl Harrell and is already all but out of this play. This is exactly the thing that you (TIMVP) and I both commented about in that game thread that winds up with Jakob giving up offensive boards. On this play, it also means that he will be able to do nothing to help Lonnie get to the rim.

Poeltl has Harrell sealed; look at the first pic you posted. Walker takes the wrong angle to the basket. Not only is he wide open on the perimeter the moment he catches the ball, he remains wide open until he drives into the defender. If Walker goes baseline, Poeltl has the seal and Walker gets a layup/dunk.

Do you really think if Walker had the same opportunity in the Rockets game that he would have passed it despite having no one within 15 feet of him trying to defend him?


But if you look at the play with Leonard, watch Forbes. Lonnie is moving over to pick up Autist, and Forbes throws his right arm out to signal that he's got the sideline, and Lonnie moves back toward the middle of the floor.

Yeah, that's not how it works when you're specifically assigned to the other team's star defensive player. Walker should have done what he did against the Rockets: shoo away Forbes and guard the player he's on the court to guard. Can you imagine Bruce Bowen getting waved off by Brent Barry when he's heading over to defend Kobe Bryant? :lol

If you're a defensive stopper, rule number one is to actually guard the guy. It happened multiple times in the Clippers game where Walker was caught hiding from Leonard. It turned out to be a good learning experience and Walker appears to now understand what it means to take on that role :tu

[JeffDuncan]

Precisely this. No matter how the plays went, it's obvious Lonnie was tasked with defending both Kawhi and Harden. He settled with letting Forbes, shit defender, take up Kawhi ...

But that was Forbes' fault. Forbes is a regular starter, and there is a status on the team that goes with that. Like it or not. A lowly bench player, who has hardly played at all, will not argue with a starter out on the court while the action is running. You just don't do that. When Forbes indicated, "I got this," Lonnie gave it to him, of course. It's Forbes who should be condemned for what he did, not Lonnie. Basically, Forbes failed to rotate - again! - and what was Lonnie supposed to do, kick him?

[timvp]

Precisely this. No matter how the plays went, it's obvious Lonnie was tasked with defending both Kawhi and Harden. He settled with letting Forbes, shit defender, take up Kawhi for an obvious score, which is what Pop meant by non-competitive. But during the Rockets game, he called for Harden on every defensive play - I don't think I saw anyone else guard Harden without a pick set to hinder Lonnie. The difference in attitude is very clear, and I hope we can see this kind of effort from Lonnie consistently.

:tu

This brings up a good point in that even when the Rockets were setting picks to get Walker off of Harden, Walker stubbornly fought over the picks and went right back to defending Harden. Walker's pick-evasion was really impressive. Obviously not at the level of Bowen or Danny Green yet but impressive for a 20-year-old.

[Arcadian]

That's what happens when you're allowed to play more than 3 minutes in a game.

[DPG21920]

Good shit. It was evident early on that Lonnie was nervous whenever he entered the game. He was lost on offense at times and nowhere as aggressive on offense as he had been in SL. Glad he took the spanking from Pop and learned from it. Hopefully he can keep it up.

I don’t blame him honestly. You know how it must feel trying to play knowing you literally only get 2 minutes and that if you make a mistake, even the same mistakes as everyone else, you get pulled with no hope of coming back?

It’s why GINO struggled at times until Pop learned to let him be him because he had the talent.

[DPG21920]

Me too. I thought he was a defensive liability despite his physical gifts. But he proved me wrong. Really like the way he manned up and covered Harden. Lightyears from hiding from Nephew. Pop got through to him.

Did yall not watch any of the G-League or Summer League or Pre-Season? Lonnie showed tremendous one-on-one defensive potential all the time; he struggled in team defense concepts, but his one on one ceiling was very evident IMO.

[BillMc]

Did yall not watch any of the G-League or Summer League or Pre-Season? Lonnie showed tremendous one-on-one defensive potential all the time; he struggled in team defense concepts, but his one on one ceiling was very evident IMO.

No, I did not watch summer league or g-league. I did watch almost every regular season game and he looked lost (which is obviously team defense) when he got time. I also watched him seem to not want to take on Nephew. So, as I said, I am thrilled to watch him show desire to guard Harden and do it well.

[Mugen]

Yeah, the biggest improvement is that he's gotten actual minutes. That's pretty much it. The cult of Pop would of course say otherwise but we could have been at this point 10-15 games ago but I'm just happy he might actually get regular minutes now....

We'll see though tbh. :lol

[Kobe'sAchilles]

If Lonnie breaks out into a star then there is still the problem of building around him. It's really hard to build around shooting guards. As far as I know it's only been done like twice successfully. We have one issue solved where we have an All-NBA defender paired with him that can take the best team's opposing guards. But we need a 3 desperately. Almost impossible to win otherwise.

[timvp]

Did yall not watch any of the G-League or Summer League or Pre-Season? Lonnie showed tremendous one-on-one defensive potential all the time; he struggled in team defense concepts, but his one on one ceiling was very evident IMO.

That's quite a condescending response to our guy BillMc, especially considering it's not really true. Walker's defense wasn't anything special in G League last season (average or below average, if we're being honest), in summer league it was decent but far from "tremendous" and in preseason he had a few good possessions against Harden but still nothing close to his potential.

[Mugen]

If you ask any Sniffer, Pop has never made a move/adjustment too late tbh

"Edgelords" were calling for Cunningham to be benched, Pau to be moved, The Golden God to actually play in 2011, DWhite to get more time last season, Lonnie to finally crack the rotation....and countless other examples....way, way before Pop actually made those moves.

And without fail, the response is always:
"Pop had no choice but to make the move when he made it or who cares when he actually did it, just be happy he finally did."

Again, I'm happy Lonnie might be getting some regular minutes, just cracks me up :lol

[Sugus]

If Lonnie breaks out into a star then there is still the problem of building around him. It's really hard to build around shooting guards. As far as I know it's only been done like twice successfully. We have one issue solved where we have an All-NBA defender paired with him that can take the best team's opposing guards. But we need a 3 desperately. Almost impossible to win otherwise.

Ideal scenario for this season is that, through a trade of either LMA or DD or both, we get a high enough pick where we can tank this season, and grab both a 5 and 3 close to the lottery next season. I see Luka developing into a starting 4 so I wouldn't be hurried to draft one with such a high pick, we're much thinner at these two positions, especially SF. Then next season you roll out DJ-DW/Lonnie/Lottery3/Luka/Poeltl-Lottery5. There's a lot that could go wrong with this, it's just a dream scenario, but I think a single season tank could fill out the holes in our young core. Now, as for which prospects fit this bill, I have no idea...

[Sugus]

If you ask any Sniffer, Pop has never made a move/adjustment too late tbh

"Edgelords" were calling for Cunningham to be benched, Pau to be moved, The Golden God to actually play in 2011, DWhite to get more time last season, Lonnie to finally crack the rotation....and countless other examples....way, way before Pop actually made those moves.

And without fail, the response is always:
"Pop had no choice but to make the move when he made it or who cares when he actually did it, just be happy he finally did."

Again, I'm happy Lonnie might be getting some regular minutes, just cracks me up :lol

To be fair, "edgelords" were also praising the Belinelli signing, though I'm sure that's not something you'd bring up as you write the narrative.

[r0drig0lac]

If Lonnie breaks out into a star then there is still the problem of building around him. It's really hard to build around shooting guards. As far as I know it's only been done like twice successfully. We have one issue solved where we have an All-NBA defender paired with him that can take the best team's opposing guards. But we need a 3 desperately. Almost impossible to win otherwise.

He has Oladipo potential., I don't think building around a two-way combo guard (if that really happens) is harder than building around a center or a power forward.

[timvp]

To be fair, "edgelords" were also praising the Belinelli signing, though I'm sure that's not something you'd bring up as you write the narrative.

https://media.giphy.com/media/XABTVorVODddu/source.gif

[Floyd Pacquiao]

If you ask any Sniffer, Pop has never made a move/adjustment too late tbh

"Edgelords" were calling for Cunningham to be benched, Pau to be moved, The Golden God to actually play in 2011, DWhite to get more time last season, Lonnie to finally crack the rotation....and countless other examples....way, way before Pop actually made those moves.

And without fail, the response is always:
"Pop had no choice but to make the move when he made it or who cares when he actually did it, just be happy he finally did."

Again, I'm happy Lonnie might be getting some regular minutes, just cracks me up :lol

Dejuan Blair trying to check the Gasol bros, Bynum and Randolph :lol

[james evans]

It's on Pop... but Pop needs to be harder.. else Walker will become Nephew..
So he’ll become a perennial all star, all nba, 2x DPOY, and 2x Finals mvp?

[Mugen]

To be fair, "edgelords" were also praising the Belinelli signing, though I'm sure that's not something you'd bring up as you write the narrative.

I usually just blame the guy giving the washed player all those minutes instead of the washed player himself but that's just me. :lol

It's fine - the Sniffers claiming Lonnie finally breaking out as a W for them just cracks me up tbh

[Mugen]

Lonnie could have finally gotten playing time in Game 81 and OP would have called it a masterful coaching job by CIAPop tbh :lmao

[Floyd Pacquiao]

I usually just blame the guy giving the washed player all those minutes instead of the washed player himself but that's just me. :lol

It's fine - the Sniffers claiming Lonnie finally breaking out as a W for them just cracks me up tbh

It's hilarious, he was obviously ready by the Knicks game, and for sure the timberwolves game. He just needed constant minutes and and a longer leash :lol but you know that gregg popovich needed to drag the spurs to 7 games below 500 to prove a point

[Kobe'sAchilles]

He has Oladipo potential., I don't think building around a two-way combo guard (if that really happens) is harder than building around a center or a power forward.
PF I agree with seeing as there's only 2 in history that won rings with teams built around them (TD and Dirk). But the Center position has so many players and teams that have won rings built around them it's ridiculous. Look no further than Houston and it shows you how hard it is to build around a dominant SG.

[JeffDuncan]

Poeltl has Harrell sealed; look at the first pic you posted. Walker takes the wrong angle to the basket. ...

Nope, Walker took the correct angle to preserve the option of the pass for a 3 attempt. Look at Beli moving toward a clear spot as soon as Walker starts to drive. That was not a play to get a layup, it was a play to get a 3 attempt, or at least have that option. If Walker had gone deeper to the baseline, left of Poeltl, he would have lost the option for the pass.

Recall Pop's praise of Beli, that he knows where to be. There he is, in the clear along the arc. Tah-dah. And Walker found him. Good job, by both Beli and Walker.

I'll add that in my view, if Beli really knew where to be, he'd be spending this winter on the Italian Riviera. That's a larger subject, tho.

[timvp]

That was not a play to get a layup, it was a play to get a 3 attempt, or at least have that option.You had it right after the first five words. That was not a play.


If Walker had gone deeper to the baseline, left of Poeltl, he would have lost the option for the pass.You don't need a pass option when you have an uncontested dunk.

[TheSpurglar]

It's like some of you want another Bryn Forbes or Gary Neal instead of another Manu. Pretty sure Pop is coaching Lonnie the way he is because he sees significant potential in him.

The only real argument is, "If Walker has potential, why not give him minutes?"

I'm not a coach, but I'd guess Pop is actively trying to eliminate any lazy/poor tendencies, because once they're established(through repetition/playing) they're hard to get rid of.

[Mugen]

It's hilarious, he was obviously ready by the Knicks game, and for sure the timberwolves game. He just needed constant minutes and and a longer leash :lol but you know that gregg popovich needed to drag the spurs to 7 games below 500 to prove a point

OP went from seeming to be at his wit's end with Pop playing Beli in the Pistons game to "Told ya, guys. Always trust Pop" by the end of the Rockets game. :lol

It's fine, I'm just happy Lonnie got the opportunity that a lot of people here have been clamoring for, he deserved it and he's deserved it for a while.

[Chinook]

:lol Walker would have dunked the ball had he gone left. The play wasn't at the end of the game to win or tie. Not even Pringles would tell a guy to pass over a wide-open dunk for a chance at a three. Sure, Lonnie may have been trying to preserve a passing lane, but that's the same non-competative attitude Pop blasted him for. I'd argue that no one else on the team except maybe White doesn't go left in that situation.

The need to make it seem like Pop can never possibly be right anymore is crazy. Dude's definitely made some really bad decisions in my mind, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a good pulse on Walker's mentality.

[RC_Drunkford]

If Lonnie breaks out into a star then there is still the problem of building around him. It's really hard to build around shooting guards. As far as I know it's only been done like twice successfully. We have one issue solved where we have an All-NBA defender paired with him that can take the best team's opposing guards. But we need a 3 desperately. Almost impossible to win otherwise.

I'm pretty sure Pop will play him at SF as he loves to play players out of positon and has been doing it with DeRozan since he got here


Lonnie could have finally gotten playing time in Game 81 and OP would have called it a masterful coaching job by CIAPop tbh


It's hilarious, he was obviously ready by the Knicks game, and for sure the timberwolves game. He just needed constant minutes and and a longer leash but you know that gregg popovich needed to drag the spurs to 7 games below 500 to prove a point

no, he only played like that cause Pop benched him for that long. It never would have worked in any other way. Just like Poeltl who'd never be able to block 5 shots in a game if he wasn't learning on the bench while watching Pau Gasol. It had nothing to do with him breaking his foot that Poeltl got playing time later on. Pop just wanted to light a fire under him so he plays great defense. Bertans was only benched in game 7, so he comes out competitive in game 1 of round 2. It's just that the team never got there, so we never got to see it.

Maybe Lonnie can be an MVP candidate if he gets benched for another 10 games. I think Dejounte should be next so he can come back with a jump shot. He might learn a thing or 2 watching Beli shoot

[Spurs Homer]

Maybe op is 100% spot on...

or


lonnie destroyed the competition in summer league

20 year old lonnie gets 2 minutes as a reward under the master sage lord pop
and makes mistakes


21 games into the season- master sage pop has masterfully coached himself into a masterful won-loss record

so what the fuck- now he can throw lonnie into the game before the entire season is lost

20 year old lonnie


is suddenly TRANSFORMED!!!!


senor LJ; you sir, are way better than this - but your trolling is noteworthy!



praise the sage master!!

[JeffDuncan]

...
While you're at it, look at the other clip around the 10 second mark. Exactly what the fuck is Bryn doing putting his right arm out onto Lonnie's right hip? ...


I hate to tell you why Forbes did that. The reason why he did that, was to inform Lonnie he was available to help Lonnie on defense.

The worst defender in the NBA was telling Lonnie, "I'm here to help you on defense, brother, if you need me." You think I'm kidding. I'm not.

[JeffDuncan]

You had it right after the first five words. That was not a play.

You're ignoring how Beli moved. The same thing you missed before. Look at it again.

Explain why, if it was just for a Walker layup or dunk, Beli started moving when Walker drove. Beli did that to give an option for the 3 attempt, of course, which is exactly what happened.

You're looking at a play that produced a wide open 3, and trying to claim it's wrong. Guess again.

[exstatic]

PF I agree with seeing as there's only 2 in history that won rings with teams built around them (TD and Dirk). But the Center position has so many players and teams that have won rings built around them it's ridiculous. Look no further than Houston and it shows you how hard it is to build around a dominant SG.

It's not that NBA any more. GS won a title and went to another Finals with no player taller than 6'6" in their best 'money' lineup.

[timvp]

You're ignoring how Beli moved. The same thing you missed before. Look at it again.

Explain why, if it was just for a Walker layup or dunk, Beli started moving when Walker drove. Beli did that to give an option for the 3 attempt, of course, which is exactly what happened.

You're looking at a play that produced a wide open 3, and trying to claim it's wrong. Guess again.

Wow.

[Chinook]

You're ignoring how Beli moved. The same thing you missed before. Look at it again.

Explain why, if it was just for a Walker layup or dunk, Beli started moving when Walker drove. Beli did that to give an option for the 3 attempt, of course, which is exactly what happened.

You're looking at a play that produced a wide open 3, and trying to claim it's wrong. Guess again.

Um... That's not the sign of a play. Beli is moving to give Walker an outlet (one he didn't need). That's what you're supposed to do when you're off-ball and someone is driving. If you stand still, then you'll get blocked by the chaos of the play. Danny Green did this all the time, especially with Prime Parker. Sometimes Danny got the pass; sometimes he didn't. But that action was to stress the defense by preventing them from committing too much too Tony, not to get Green a shot specifically. Beli, for all his faults, understands off-ball movement as much as anyone in the league. He never just sits there. Don't take him moving as a sign he's supposed to get the ball. Just watch him during a game sometimes, and you'll see.

[JeffDuncan]

... Sure, Lonnie may have been trying to preserve a passing lane, but that's the same non-competative attitude ...

Finding open passing lanes is "non-competitive," you say? Are you sober?

That play produced a wide-open 3, spunky.


... I'd argue that no one else on the team except maybe White doesn't go left in that situation.

Explain why Beli moved when Walker drove. Go right ahead, spunky. Explain that. Reveal your theory of that, which I'm sure will amaze everyone.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

It's not that NBA any more. GS won a title and went to another Finals with no player taller than 6'6" in their best 'money' lineup.
Golden St proves my original point (although btw they weren't being led by a shooting guard) but my point was that in order to compete with a team built around a SG you need a versatile all star caliber 3. But I think it's easier build around Embiid than it is Lonnie either way

[Chinook]

Finding open passing lanes is "non-competitive," you say? Are you sober?

That play produced a wide-open 3, spunky.



Explain why Beli moved when Walker drove. Go right ahead, spunky. Explain that. Reveal your theory of that, which I'm sure will amaze everyone.

Yes, passing up shots for a teammate to take a harder one is non-competative. That's why Anderson is gone.

And I already explained it. You've been on this board way too long to not know why guys move on the perimeter.

[offset formation]

I really hope that these two plays weren't any part of the reason why Pop glued Lonnie to the bench. Lonnie isn't perfect in either one, but singling him out is misguided - especially on the offensive end. It's not even a gray area. (If anybody wants to argue with me about it, look at the video pictures and argue with those.)

In the first play, against the Clippers, Jakob has given up position to Montrezl Harrell and is already all but out of this play. This is exactly the thing that you (TIMVP) and I both commented about in that game thread that winds up with Jakob giving up offensive boards. On this play, it also means that he will be able to do nothing to help Lonnie get to the rim.

In the second play, against the Rockets, Jakob has taken up solid position on Harden under the basket. Not only is it much better rebound technique, he is also in position to seal for Lonnie's drive into the paint.

https://i.postimg.cc/2jM6smKp/position1.jpg

Here, just a few frames later, Lonnie has headed into the paint on both occasions. You can see that Jakob has Harden on his back, and sealed away from Lonnie's drive. Harden's only hope is to reach around Poeltl as Lonnie goes by. Harrell, on the other hand, has slipped unimpeded away from Jakob, and is in excellent defensive position to cut Lonnie off. Poeltl is a spectator.

https://i.postimg.cc/wjfTkpJb/position2.jpg


And the final results: Harrell has forced Lonnie beyond the basket, and is body to body with his hands up. The only way Lonnie is going to get that "dunk or easy layup" is if he figures out a way to make Montrezl Harrell disappear. If he goes aggressively back into Harrell, he could get a whistle since Harrell is inside the circle - but if he doesn't get respect from the zebras, this is likely a dry possession. Poeltl really wishes there was something he could do to help - but he was out of this from the start.

Now in the second picture, Poeltl's seal on Harden has left Lonnie with nothing between him and the rim but air. The only unfortunate thing is that he left his feet too early as this time he really could have had that dunk or easy layup. Instead he puts up a little floater that bounces around and, fortunately, falls.

If you (or Pop) want to blame Lonnie for anything in that play against the Clippers, it should be for not recognizing that he's playing 1-on-1 against Harrell, who is in perfect position to defend the rim - which is what Harrell is there to do.


https://i.postimg.cc/SQd09Gcg/position3.jpg

He could have gone left (along baseline) though and jumped with aggression for a layup or dunk. He brought Montrezl into the play. And the difference between the defensive effort is clearly coaching.

But it requires being aggressive. That's what Pop commented on the other night with his non-competitiveness. Pop deserves credit in the difference as does Lonnie for taking the coaching and not sulking. Together, the two of them may have saved our season. Time will tell.

[JeffDuncan]

Um... That's not the sign of a play. Beli is moving to give Walker an outlet (one he didn't need). ...

You guys can look at a designed play, and not have a clue. Reminds me of some old comedy show. "Are you really from Scotland Yard?"

Look at it again, and watch Beli. See him move, to the clear spot along the arc, and put his hands in position to receive the pass.

And you think Beli - who Pop said always knows where to be - did that as a result of just wandering around, like a bug on a window.

You can see that play, and have it explained to you, and you still don't have a clue what's happening. You don't know any basketball at all.

[JeffDuncan]

Yes, passing up shots for a teammate to take a harder one is non-competative. ...

3 is more than 2, spunky, and a wide open 3 from that location is not supposed to be especially difficult for an NBA shooter. Spunky.

You don't know any basketball at all.

[timvp]

Finding open passing lanes is "non-competitive," you say? Are you sober?

That play produced a wide-open 3, spunky.

Explain why Beli moved when Walker drove. Go right ahead, spunky. Explain that. Reveal your theory of that, which I'm sure will amaze everyone.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2K5jinAlChoCLS/source.gif

[DPG21920]

That's quite a condescending response to our guy BillMc, especially considering it's not really true. Walker's defense wasn't anything special in G League last season (average or below average, if we're being honest), in summer league it was decent but far from "tremendous" and in preseason he had a few good possessions against Harden but still nothing close to his potential.

Let’s agree to disagree. It was not condescending and he answered with what I thought - he didn’t get to watch it. I didn’t say it was Lonnie breakout SZN during the SL, pre-season etc..I said he showed him immense potential, which I believe he did. The fact you knew exactly what I was talking about with out mentioning it (Harden possessions) lends me to believe you saw the potential too.

Is it better to see it in an actual game? Yes. But I was simply saying that the defensive potential didn’t come out of no where. We had seen glimpses before of that potential with what evidence we had (because he wasn’t playing real NBA games yet).

Maybe our definition of showing potential is different but to me that means you are looking for moments from a young player where you can go “wow, he’s capable of that type of moment? Hmmm, wonder if that is something he can do consistently”. Watching him use his athleticism against Harden in the pre-season, coupled with other moments like that in the G-league and SL gave me more than enough hope he could be a top notch defender.

I’ve posted about it well before this game too about why I thought he would be a big + on that end so its not after-the-fact-ism either

[DPG21920]

This was from pre-season vs Harden. A lot of this looks very similar to what we just saw. All I’m saying is this vs Harden was not some completely out of the blue “OMG Lonnie can actually play defense?” Moment. We saw, what I believe to be, immense potential before even if as I admitted it was not consistent.

That is why I asked and what I clearly meant by potential * shrugs *


1184959825391820801

I mean, others were writing and posting about his potential there too before this game - it’s not like everyone saw the defensive part of this most recent HOU game and went “where the hell did that defense come from? He’s never done that before???”

1184862901728927744

[Chinook]

You guys can look at a designed play, and not have a clue. Reminds me of some old comedy show. "Are you really from Scotland Yard?"

Look at it again, and watch Beli. See him move, to the clear spot along the arc, and put his hands in position to receive the pass.

And you think Beli - who Pop said always knows where to be - did that as a result of just wandering around, like a bug on a window.

You can see that play, and have it explained to you, and you still don't have a clue what's happening. You don't know any basketball at all.

That's not a designed play. That's an action. It's like thinking that a guy cutting through on a post-up means the play is designed for the cutter. There's a difference between a set play (where a coach draws up a specific sequence of actions to get a certain player a certain shot) and a set running through options and a play having outlets. Beli sliding on the play is the same as a big man rolling on a PnR. That's him doing his job spacing the floor.

[Chinook]

3 is more than 2, spunky, and a wide open 3 from that location is not supposed to be especially difficult for an NBA shooter. Spunky.

You don't know any basketball at all.

A three point attempt isn't worth more than a wide open dunk. It's weird you claim to know basketball and don't seem to get that.

[timvp]

Did yall not watch any of the G-League or Summer League or Pre-Season? Lonnie showed tremendous one-on-one defensive potential all the time


We had seen glimpses before of that potential

Tremendous all the time to glimpses? Okay, yeah, I can get behind the latter.

The former was overstated, especially when coupled with condescending language. He had a couple Harden possessions in preseason but I didn't see anything in SL or GL that I'd say was tremendous. But, okay, glimpses of potential is a fair way to state it.

:tu

[DPG21920]

Tremendous all the time to glimpses? Okay, yeah, I can get behind the latter.

The former was overstated, especially when coupled with condescending language. He had a couple Harden possessions in preseason but I didn't see anything in SL or GL that I'd say was tremendous. But, okay, glimpses of potential is a fair way to state it.

:tu

Bill is a big boy and I’ve never said anything condescending to him ever; so that was not the intent and I think he probably knows that with how I speak to people

[RC_Drunkford]

This was from pre-season vs Harden. A lot of this looks very similar to what we just saw. All I’m saying is this vs Harden was not some completely out of the blue “OMG Lonnie can actually play defense?” Moment. We saw, what I believe to be, immense potential before even if as I admitted it was not consistent.


no need to argue with OP when he threw Walker under the bus the day before his break out game and has made a 180 ever since

[DPG21920]

no need to argue with OP when he threw Walker under the bus the day before his break out game and has made a 180 ever since

I dont agree with that; don’t think he threw Lonnie under the bus. timvp , along with even Jeff McDonald, just hold a different view on how Pop went about the tough love.

And if we are being honest, any time you can be on the Jeff McDonald side of a basketball argument, you are probably on the right side.

[ducks]

Becky coaches him not pop
Saw her talking to him on sidelines

[DPG21920]

I dont agree with that; don’t think he threw Lonnie under the bus. timvp , along with even Jeff McDonald, just hold a different view on how Pop went about the tough love.

And if we are being honest, any time you can be on the Jeff McDonald side of a basketball argument, you are probably on the right side.

* jiggles fishing pole a few times *

Hmm, fish ain’t bitin today

[RC_Drunkford]

I dont agree with that; don’t think he threw Lonnie under the bus. timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8) , along with even Jeff McDonald, just hold a different view on how Pop went about the tough love.

And if we are being honest, any time you can be on the Jeff McDonald side of a basketball argument, you are probably on the right side.

Right. "The Spurs won enough, it's cool to let somebody else take a turn"

[TimDunkem]

LMAO Jeff "let some other guy have a turn" McDonald. :lmao

[timvp]

no need to argue with OP when he threw Walker under the bus the day before his break out game and has made a 180 ever since

Huh?

Are you talking about when I said the Spurs don't have their next franchise player on their roster yet in TD 21's thread? If so, that's one interesting definition of throwing Walker under the bus.

You believe Walker is a franchise player? I hope you're right and, if that day comes, I hope you'll forgive me for doubting him. I'm pretty high on him but franchise player? Yeah, no, no I'm not there.

[TD 21]

Huh?

Are you talking about when I said the Spurs don't have their next franchise player on their roster yet in TD 21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17781)'s thread? If so, that's one interesting definition of throwing Walker under the bus.

You believe Walker is a franchise player? I hope you're right and, if that day comes, I hope you'll forgive me for doubting him. I'm pretty high on him but franchise player? Yeah, no, no I'm not there.

:lmao Turnabout is fair play.

[timvp]

Bill is a big boy and I’ve never said anything condescending to him ever; so that was not the intent and I think he probably knows that with how I speak to peoplePerhaps I misread your intended inflection.

Apologies in order.


* jiggles fishing pole a few times *

Hmm, fish ain’t bitin today

Bait ignored.

[timvp]

:lmao Turnabout is fair play.

:lol, tbh.

Me defending the young players on the roster was morphed into me throwing Walker under the bus apparently.



Bait ignored.

I'd be remiss if I didn't credit SAGirl for that maneuver, tbh :tu

[Spurtacular]

Let's make sure we gig Pop a lot of credit for benching a true all star level talent as the Spurs went on a mega losing streak. GOAT coach, obviously. His tactic obviously paid a dividend.

[FkLA]

Still think the "hiding" from Nephew thing is overblown. He wasn't super assertive by shrugging Forbes out of the way, which admittedly was nice to see in the HOU game, but ending up matched up on a different offensive player in transition off a miss is fairly common. It happens to White and Murray. It happened to Nephew and Green. Yet nobody ever accused them of being scared to defend.

There's also no reason why Pop couldn't have gotten the same result with an ass chewing and/or a quick 5 second benching like he's done with Murray/White. Even benching him for the rest of that LAC game would've been fine. 10-15 games and giving Belli every opportunity to not be the worst rotation player in the league...to me that shows that this wasn't some CIA Pop genius move. If Belli could have progressed back to what he was last year (which is still pretty fucking bad), Lonnie is still buried on the bench.

[spurs1990]

If Marco assumes his destined and well earned 12th man role does he still get to keep his second-from-coaches assigned seat? I found it comical watching him shoo-off guys like Eubanks for sitting in that seat, likes he's Kobe Bryant or something.

[UZER]

“Omg Lonnie praises Pop for his improvement!”

The young man finally, FINALLY, got some serious minutes in a game and found a rhythm. He wants to continue to get more time one the floor. Of course he’s gonna kiss Pops balls.

What you want him to say? Man fuck Pop! I’ve been ready all damn year. Bout time that old man played me. Yeah that’s gonna fly.

[offset formation]

Let’s agree to disagree. It was not condescending and he answered with what I thought - he didn’t get to watch it. I didn’t say it was Lonnie breakout SZN during the SL, pre-season etc..I said he showed him immense potential, which I believe he did. The fact you knew exactly what I was talking about with out mentioning it (Harden possessions) lends me to believe you saw the potential too.

Is it better to see it in an actual game? Yes. But I was simply saying that the defensive potential didn’t come out of no where. We had seen glimpses before of that potential with what evidence we had (because he wasn’t playing real NBA games yet).

Maybe our definition of showing potential is different but to me that means you are looking for moments from a young player where you can go “wow, he’s capable of that type of moment? Hmmm, wonder if that is something he can do consistently”. Watching him use his athleticism against Harden in the pre-season, coupled with other moments like that in the G-league and SL gave me more than enough hope he could be a top notch defender.

I’ve posted about it well before this game too about why I thought he would be a big + on that end so its not after-the-fact-ism either

Dude, I went to multiple games in Austin last year. -- I live about 10 minutes away. I also went to a few in San Antonio, of which Lonnie played in at least a couple.
I went to the Raptors game on nephs return and watched him come in during garbage time for I believe his first minutes/points of his career. When he came in, he repeatedly lost his man. REPEATEDLY. I know because I followed nothing but him.

I say all of that to say I made **multiple** posts about Lonnies D being utter shit. I said on multiple posts he was never going to play given Pops demands for D. It was often non existent in Summer League and I questioned if he'd even get called up given how sporadic his efforts were. There just cannot be any doubt but that Pop and the coaches (wish Ahern had stressed it more or benched him) likely finally got their point across that effort and "competitiveness" were mandated or he'd ride the bench.

I think it's important to note for the record given what this thread has evolved into, that while his abilities were always clear, his Spursian effort was not. And that's what got this team under Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker and all the role players to 5 chips and an unsurpassed level of success. Pop sent his message and to Lonnies credit, it was finally recieved.

[ducks]

Walker was a typical liberal wanted free handout and maybe his great great great great great great relatives were slaves in USA
Now becky says not the way it is and is working
Becky is the one coaching him not pop

[Sugus]

Dude, I went to multiple games in Austin last year. -- I live about 10 minutes away. I also went to a few in San Antonio, of which Lonnie played in at least a couple.
I went to the Raptors game on nephs return and watched him come in during garbage time for I believe his first minutes/points of his career. When he came in, he repeatedly lost his man. REPEATEDLY. I know because I followed nothing but him.

I say all of that to say I made **multiple** posts about Lonnies D being utter shit. I said on multiple posts he was never going to play given Pops demands for D. It was often non existent in Summer League and I questioned if he'd even get called up given how sporadic his efforts were. There just cannot be any doubt but that Pop and the coaches (wish Ahern had stressed it more or benched him) likely finally got their point across that effort and "competitiveness" were mandated or he'd ride the bench.

I think it's important to note for the record given what this thread has evolved into, that while his abilities were always clear, his Spursian effort was not. And that's what got this team under Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker and all the role players to 5 chips and an unsurpassed level of success. Pop sent his message and to Lonnies credit, it was finally recieved.

Someone who finally understands what Lonnie's progression has been all about. It's crazy to see the revisionist history saying Lonnie always had that insane talent on D when he looked like a lost puppy on the court for most of his playing stints, both in Austin and the Spurs. I had accepted him as a kind of "double the offense, half the defense" kind of player as his ceiling, but last game showed us that he might reach higher than that. All that's left to see is whether the lesson was fully learned, or if his effort will wane once he gets complacent with his minutes.

[offset formation]

Walker was a typical liberal wanted free handout and maybe his great great great great great great relatives were slaves in USA
Now becky says not the way it is and is working
Becky is the one coaching him not pop

STFU MAGAt.

[DMC]

Would you suggest a 5 time NBA champion, top 5 coach in history known for developing young players knew what he was doing with Walker?

No. Didn't happen before Tim joined the coaching staff.

[DPG21920]

Dude, I went to multiple games in Austin last year. -- I live about 10 minutes away. I also went to a few in San Antonio, of which Lonnie played in at least a couple.
I went to the Raptors game on nephs return and watched him come in during garbage time for I believe his first minutes/points of his career. When he came in, he repeatedly lost his man. REPEATEDLY. I know because I followed nothing but him.

I say all of that to say I made **multiple** posts about Lonnies D being utter shit. I said on multiple posts he was never going to play given Pops demands for D. It was often non existent in Summer League and I questioned if he'd even get called up given how sporadic his efforts were. There just cannot be any doubt but that Pop and the coaches (wish Ahern had stressed it more or benched him) likely finally got their point across that effort and "competitiveness" were mandated or he'd ride the bench.

I think it's important to note for the record given what this thread has evolved into, that while his abilities were always clear, his Spursian effort was not. And that's what got this team under Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker and all the role players to 5 chips and an unsurpassed level of success. Pop sent his message and to Lonnies credit, it was finally recieved.

I too live in Austin. I too went to multiple games.

I clarified what I said and meant. He was a poor defender especially in the team setting. While not productive consistently, we saw flashes of brilliance one on one in all types of games (GL, SL and PS). It’s not a shock to me that he has this type of defense in him. He showed it before; just not consistently

[GAustex]

If I had a guess i would say that Pop held Lonne out because of his off ball and team defense or rather lack thereoff. He seemed OK one on one D. He got picked off and lost his man badly often when he did play. I thought when watching he was thinking too much but who really knows. I am willing to bet that he still struggles with it since against Hardin he was on ball almost all the time. We will see if he can rotate and help and not lose his man when the ball is not in front of him.

[Chinook]

Walker always had intriguing defensive potential due to his strength and athleticism. He's essentially what people thought Jonathon Simmons was. But like Murray before him, he didn't show much in terms of D at any level. Even now, I don't think that Lonnie played good defense on Harden. It's just that Harden is the easiest star in the league to guard. Don't believe me? Name a Spurs perimeter player that has even a decent rep on D and think about their best performances on that end. Almost all of them include handling Harden at one time or another. Harden makes his whole career out of taking terrible shots and supplementing their obvious inefficiency with tons of free throws. Anybody who can contest without fouling is going to have a game against him where Harden shoots horribly. They don't even have to be good contests -- the shots Harden takes are just that bad. There are definitely players who struggle not sticking their hands in there or who are just too small or slow to contest anyway. But anyone else? Yeah. Harden ends up having awful playoff series almost annually for a reason.

That said, I appreciated that Walker could come in and follow that game plan, and he gave us no reason to believe he can't keep developing into at least a slightly above-average wing defender. He allows Murray to play off the ball and gives White an on-ball guy to platoon with. Still, I'm hoping the offense gets to the point pretty quickly to where Walker spends most of his energy doing that. It's still by far best for the Spurs to get a guy who can use his athleticism and shooting form to warp defenses rather than getting an off-ball guy who spends most of his energy chasing opposing first options around the court all game.

[ducks]

Who was on the sideline talking to walker
Becky not pop

[DPG21920]

Walker always had intriguing defensive potential due to his strength and athleticism. He's essentially what people thought Jonathon Simmons was. But like Murray before him, he didn't show much in terms of D at any level. Even now, I don't think that Lonnie played good defense on Harden. It's just that Harden is the easiest star in the league to guard. Don't believe me? Name a Spurs perimeter player that has even a decent rep on D and think about their best performances on that end. Almost all of them include handling Harden at one time or another. Harden makes his whole career out of taking terrible shots and supplementing their obvious inefficiency with tons of free throws. Anybody who can contest without fouling is going to have a game against him where Harden shoots horribly. They don't even have to be good contests -- the shots Harden takes are just that bad. There are definitely players who struggle not sticking their hands in there or who are just too small or slow to contest anyway. But anyone else? Yeah. Harden ends up having awful playoff series almost annually for a reason.

That said, I appreciated that Walker could come in and follow that game plan, and he gave us no reason to believe he can't keep developing into at least a slightly above-average wing defender. He allows Murray to play off the ball and gives White an on-ball guy to platoon with. Still, I'm hoping the offense gets to the point pretty quickly to where Walker spends most of his energy doing that. It's still by far best for the Spurs to get a guy who can use his athleticism and shooting form to warp defenses rather than getting an off-ball guy who spends most of his energy chasing opposing first options around the court all game.

I love you. Honestly I do. But what? Hopefully with Murray/White Lonnie is a luxury but he absolutely has the tools to be a primary defender and do it well.

[duncan2k5]

If u guys think this is some master plan from Pop yall are simple minded... Lonnie didn't suddenly become good because Pop benched him... That's like benching Kawhi and when he finally plays good ten games later saying it was because of the benching... No! The dude was always this good... He just made mistakes in a 5 minute span that even VETS make...

He will continue to make those mistakes... He will have plays where he isn't trying hard...EVERY nba player does! What will u do then? Bench him for ten games?

[duncan2k5]

That's what happens when you're allowed to play more than 3 minutes in a game.

This, tbh... Everybody acting like it's Pop that made him good... No... The guy had a bad 5 minutes... Prime Duncan had stretches like that.. It happens... U don't bench him for games on end because of it

[duncan2k5]

All this giving Pop credit reminds me of when ppl were trying to give Chip credit for Lonnies preseason shooting until they found out he didn't train with Chip...

But no... Give all credit to Pop, right? The same guy who had Duncan on the bench for a championship sealing defensive possession

[offset formation]

If u guys think this is some master plan from Pop yall are simple minded... Lonnie didn't suddenly become good because Pop benched him... That's like benching Kawhi and when he finally plays good ten games later saying it was because of the benching... No! The dude was always this good... He just made mistakes in a 5 minute span that even VETS make...

He will continue to make those mistakes... He will have plays where he isn't trying hard...EVERY nba player does! What will u do then? Bench him for ten games?

His defense was nonexistent. Stop it.

If you didn't have nephs junk all the way inside you, you might not hold such a grudge.

[gameFACE]

Gotta agree on this. White (like Forbes) is relatively old for a "young" guy and I think he's nearer to his ceiling. White just needs to get healthy. Murray, while I like his leadership and rebounding, has now had 4 seasons to work on shooting and his playmaking instincts. Is he really much better than his 2nd year? Even with the injury setting him back, he's getting perilously close to plateauing. As Bill Parcels once said. "Eventually, he is what he is." Hope I'm wrong.

Lonnie, if he's got the drive, has star potential. KJ and Luka, words still out on them of course.

IMO, Murray will improve with better players around him. Hopefully that's LW in the near future. White will improve to a lesser degree but I'd love the young core to include a big. As for Lonnie, I'm curious to see how he guards Kawhi next time. Kath and Harden are two different types of assignments.

[SAGirl]

I'd be remiss if I didn't credit SAGirl (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49524) for that maneuver, tbh :tu

lol “bait avoided” is a great move in the right situation.

I wasn’t so much avoiding the subject as avoiding the person. The guy whose bait I ignored has a very hostile forum demeanor and has insulted me in verbal exchanges in the past. He is prone to also go off with pejorative insults on other people he disagrees with. Knowing the quality of the “conversation” he was proposing, I simply declined.

To take that bait was only going to end in my aggravation.

—-

As for this subject this is a lively thread that I am enjoying . At least Lonnie is a positive development for the team. I am now more interested in what happens next. I posted somewhere that’s the thread I want to see/read. Perhaps something for you to comment on soon?

Here we are now. What’s Pop going to do. I have to think minutes will be carved out for Lonnie somehow.

[XDT76]

lol “bait avoided” is a great move in the right situation.

I wasn’t so much avoiding the subject as avoiding the person. The guy whose bait I ignored has a very hostile forum demeanor and has insulted me in verbal exchanges in the past. He is prone to also go off with pejorative insults on other people he disagrees with. Knowing the quality of the “conversation” he was proposing, I simply declined.

To take that bait was only going to end in my aggravation.

—-

As for this subject this is a lively thread that I am enjoying . At least Lonnie is a positive development for the team. I am now more interested in what happens next. I posted somewhere that’s the thread I want to see/read. Perhaps something for you to comment on soon?

You know I think Pop, besides flaming him publicly (could be deserved and Lonnie handled it well regardless, I will give you that) the benching went on for too long and IMO it had more to do with Pop not figuring out his best lineups and his best players than with a particular lesson for Lonnie.

However that’s water under the bridge. Here we are now. What’s Pop going to do. I have to think minutes will be carved out for Lonnie somehow.

Good move, this used to be a great forum but recently some posters starts calling you names when you did not hold the exact same view as them.

It is actually fruitless to discuss whatever Pop did with regards to Lonnie is right or wrong, effective or not because there is not way to prove it either way. What I am glad is that the Houston games is the first time I see Lonnie shows long period of focus on both end of the floor. I was worried that he would not be able to reach his potential by zoning out when he was not the focal on O or D.

I also think that the retirement of Tim, Manu and Tony and the passing of his wife might made him more sentimental when dealing with players that he is familiar with.

[TDMVPDPOY]

when he took that 3 instead of passing it...u know he has arrive, everyone else whose not a known chucker on the team, wouldnt have shot that, too scared to be chewed out by popabitch

[Slippy]

Lonnie gets his first substantial amount of mins scores 29. We seen 2 cameos leading up to this performance and that's because he got off the bench instead of Marco. The game was there. Pop felt he wasn't competitive enough . He probably saw the guy smile after a Blowen assignment. With Pop theres a different standard for every player.

You can't spin this . Lonnie should of being p laying earlier. He should also start moving forward . He more ready than TP was when he was first inserted into a starting role. The role he coming into as in Bryns is a glaring weakness compared to TPs situation.

[Sugus]

Lonnie gets his first substantial amount of mins scores 29. We seen 2 cameos leading up to this performance and that's because he got off the bench instead of Marco. The game was there. Pop felt he wasn't competitive enough . He probably saw the guy smile after a Blowen assignment. With Pop theres a different standard for every player.

You can't spin this . Lonnie should of being p laying earlier. He should also start moving forward . He more ready than TP was when he was first inserted into a starting role. The role he coming into as in Bryns is a glaring weakness compared to TPs situation.

The problem I see about Lonnie starting is his fit with the first unit. Don't get me wrong, it would definitely make the SL better (anything you switch on that takes the worst defender in the NBA off the floor is a W), but I think that the starters are too ISO-heavy and reliant on DD/LMA production for Lonnie to get the significant touches he deserves to build up his game and shine. During overtime, for example, it was clear that DD was getting the ball to Lonnie in spite of his own game - but I can't see this being the case for every game unless Lonnie actually starts to average 20+ppg, which is obviously a pipe dream. White as a starter gets DD/LMA the ball on their spots so they can be more effective, and Dejounte can run the fastbreak with Lonnie as a partner much more effectively than having to wait for LMA's corpse to drag onto the half court.

Having said that, now more than ever is it clear that we have a logjam at the guard position that needs solving. DeMar as an out-of-position 2 is expendable for us and he's never going to be playing better than he is right now - Spurs FO should be selling high on him at the deadline, and free up all those minutes for the young guns. Though I start to wonder how much of this is a pipe dream as well, tbh...

[RC_Drunkford]

Walker always had intriguing defensive potential due to his strength and athleticism. He's essentially what people thought Jonathon Simmons was. But like Murray before him, he didn't show much in terms of D at any level. Even now, I don't think that Lonnie played good defense on Harden. It's just that Harden is the easiest star in the league to guard. Don't believe me? Name a Spurs perimeter player that has even a decent rep on D and think about their best performances on that end. Almost all of them include handling Harden at one time or another. Harden makes his whole career out of taking terrible shots and supplementing their obvious inefficiency with tons of free throws. Anybody who can contest without fouling is going to have a game against him where Harden shoots horribly. They don't even have to be good contests -- the shots Harden takes are just that bad. There are definitely players who struggle not sticking their hands in there or who are just too small or slow to contest anyway. But anyone else? Yeah. Harden ends up having awful playoff series almost annually for a reason.

That said, I appreciated that Walker could come in and follow that game plan, and he gave us no reason to believe he can't keep developing into at least a slightly above-average wing defender. He allows Murray to play off the ball and gives White an on-ball guy to platoon with. Still, I'm hoping the offense gets to the point pretty quickly to where Walker spends most of his energy doing that. It's still by far best for the Spurs to get a guy who can use his athleticism and shooting form to warp defenses rather than getting an off-ball guy who spends most of his energy chasing opposing first options around the court all game.

very interesting take. Now that I think about it, the main reason why people thought Jonathon Simmons was a good defender was cause he guarded Harden :lol:

[RC_Drunkford]

Huh?

Are you talking about when I said the Spurs don't have their next franchise player on their roster yet in TD 21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17781)'s thread? If so, that's one interesting definition of throwing Walker under the bus.

You believe Walker is a franchise player? I hope you're right and, if that day comes, I hope you'll forgive me for doubting him. I'm pretty high on him but franchise player? Yeah, no, no I'm not there.

I might have exaggerated when I said that, but you saying that playing the young guys wouldn't make the team better, just more exciting to watch, was completely wrong

[timvp]

I might have exaggerated when I said that, but you saying that playing the young guys wouldn't make the team better, just more exciting to watch, was completely wrong

When did I say that?

[RC_Drunkford]

When did I say that?


Is it, though? I don't see anyone saying the Spurs are championship contenders once they allow Murray, White and the other youngsters to develop. Some think playing them more would make the team better (but not suddenly transform into a contender or anything) but mostly people just want to see them play because it's more fun than watching Marco lose.


I think everyone is agreement that this team's next franchise player isn't on the team yet.


We'll see. I'm not ready to crown Walker (and, by extension, Pop) yet after one good quarter

ok you weren't throwing him under the bus, but it's pretty funny to me you said all that after the Minnesota game/a day before the Rockets game. You saying "Some think playing them more would make the team better" makes it sound like you weren't part of that group

[timvp]

ok you weren't throwing him under the bus, but it's pretty funny to me you said all that after the Minnesota game/a day before the Rockets game. You saying "Some think playing them more would make the team better" makes it sound like you weren't part of that group

Interesting interpretation, tbh.

The context of that quote is our friend TD 21 saying the Spurs youth is overrated and that Murray, specifically, is the most overrated player in the history of the NBA because he heard it on a podcast that he can't link to. My response was the youth isn't overrated (and certainly not historically overrated) because no one is claiming that the youth will make the Spurs a contender overnight.

I guess it's my fault for responding to TD 21's ridiculous claim in the first place :lol

[RC_Drunkford]

Interesting interpretation, tbh.

The context of that quote is our friend TD 21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17781) saying the Spurs youth is overrated and that Murray, specifically, is the most overrated player in the history of the NBA because he heard it on a podcast that he can't link to. My response was the youth isn't overrated (and certainly not historically overrated) because no one is claiming that the youth will make the Spurs a contender overnight.

I guess it's my fault for responding to TD 21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17781)'s ridiculous claim in the first place :lol

I mostly agree with that notion, but a Walker break out might do just that. Walker producing like Donovan Mitchell in his rookie season, like I have often claimed he could, would make the Spurs pretty dangerous. The only problem with that is Morris fuckin us over. If the Spurs package one of the midget SGs with some of the non-rotation guys in Beli/Carroll and get a starting forward in return, we might have something here.

[TD 21]

Interesting interpretation, tbh.

The context of that quote is our friend TD 21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17781) saying the Spurs youth is overrated and that Murray, specifically, is the most overrated player in the history of the NBA because he heard it on a podcast that he can't link to. My response was the youth isn't overrated (and certainly not historically overrated) because no one is claiming that the youth will make the Spurs a contender overnight.

I guess it's my fault for responding to TD 21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17781)'s ridiculous claim in the first place :lol

:lmao At the lack of basic reading comprehension.

[Slippy]

The problem I see about Lonnie starting is his fit with the first unit. Don't get me wrong, it would definitely make the SL better (anything you switch on that takes the worst defender in the NBA off the floor is a W), but I think that the starters are too ISO-heavy and reliant on DD/LMA production for Lonnie to get the significant touches he deserves to build up his game and shine. During overtime, for example, it was clear that DD was getting the ball to Lonnie in spite of his own game - but I can't see this being the case for every game unless Lonnie actually starts to average 20+ppg, which is obviously a pipe dream. White as a starter gets DD/LMA the ball on their spots so they can be more effective, and Dejounte can run the fastbreak with Lonnie as a partner much more effectively than having to wait for LMA's corpse to drag onto the half court.

Having said that, now more than ever is it clear that we have a logjam at the guard position that needs solving. DeMar as an out-of-position 2 is expendable for us and he's never going to be playing better than he is right now - Spurs FO should be selling high on him at the deadline, and free up all those minutes for the young guns. Though I start to wonder how much of this is a pipe dream as well, tbh...

It's a concern but I'd rather the coach prioritize his min over touches. Keep in mind all of Lonnies points explosion pretty much came in the second half. The first he hardly got any touches but still got the same mins. It all about time on court and then rhythm in my book. It was important that pop went back to him in the second half or we never would of seen that explosion.

[Sugus]

It's a concern but I'd rather the coach prioritize his min over touches. Keep in mind all of Lonnies points explosion pretty much came in the second half. The first he hardly got any touches but still got the same mins. It all about time on court and then rhythm in my book. It was important that pop went back to him in the second half or we never would of seen that explosion.

Yeah, I understand that. It is exactly the problem Lonnie would have if he were promoted to the SL, maybe as a 2-3 with Forbes riding the pine, for example. DeMar and LaMarcus are both rhythm players who need a lot of touches and on-ball possessions to be effective, which will inevitably prevent Lonnie from getting the touches he also needs. I'd much rather see him coming off the bench second and having a two-man game with DJ off the bench, they look like they have a lot of synergy. If Pop weren't so set on his ways we could also see a Dj-White-Lonnie lineup but maybe that's too much to ask for this season

[Slippy]

Yeah, I understand that. It is exactly the problem Lonnie would have if he were promoted to the SL, maybe as a 2-3 with Forbes riding the pine, for example. DeMar and LaMarcus are both rhythm players who need a lot of touches and on-ball possessions to be effective, which will inevitably prevent Lonnie from getting the touches he also needs. I'd much raratherkther see him coming off the bench second and having a two-man game with DJ off the bench, they look like they have a lot of synergy. If Pop weren't so set on his ways we could also see a Dj-White-Lonnie lineup but maybe that's too much to ask for this season

Last night was a perfect example on why Lonnie needs to start. There's going to be games where pop simply won't play him over others . . As a he starter he will get those mins. Might not equate to touches and pop will close with others but Lonnie will stil get a set amount mins on the court. The guy needs regular on court experience. Sitting with an inconsistent role doesn't cut it.

[Sugus]

Last night was a perfect example on why Lonnie needs to start. There's going to be games where pop simply won't play him over others . . As a he starter he will get those mins. Might not equate to touches and pop will close with others but Lonnie will stil get a set amount mins on the court. The guy needs regular on court experience. Sitting with an inconsistent role doesn't cut it.

The same recognition of Lonnie's talents and upside that would make Pop start him, would make Pop give him consistent minutes off the bench. If Pop won't play him over others in the rotation, he clearly doesn't have enough belief in him to put him in the SL. Sucks that this is the reality of the situation, but Pop seems to really like to ride with his undersized, no D 2s whether it's Patty or Forbes rather than his athletic, long, prospect guys.

[MultiTroll]

The same recognition of Lonnie's talents and upside that would make Pop start him, would make Pop give him consistent minutes off the bench. If Pop won't play him over others in the rotation, he clearly doesn't have enough belief in him to put him in the SL. Sucks that this is the reality of the situation, but Pop seems to really like to ride with his undersized, no D 2s whether it's Patty or Forbes rather than his athletic, long, prospect guys.
He's light years ahead.

[UZER]

No matter what Walker does, Pop is going to Pop him this year. It has nothing to do with Walker's play (see Forbes as example that play doesn't matter), but Pop's need for a whipping boy. It was written before the season started.