Article: Derrick White Is Hurting the Spurs

[cd021]

https://www.spurstalk.com/derrick-white-san-antonio-spurs-early-season-struggles/

The gist: helped the Spurs last season but has been hurting the Spurs this season.

[John B]

Demoting him to the 2nd unit, after last years performance and selection to the national team, didn’t help. I’m not sure if it was to rest him or a failed DJ experiment in the starting PG. Because DJ, with all his potentials, was and still not ready as the starting PG. He needs to calm down, protect the ball and minimize the turnovers. It will come. For now, White is the best ballhandler in the team with his poise and size. Not Demar, because other teams sag on perimeter defense unless he hurls them 3pts and make them consistently. Mills is too small on the other end and should be relegated only to spurt offense. White is the starting PG of this team, and should command that role. I’ve seen him getting aggressive lately. I hope he is recovering fast from any injuries. This team definitely needs him, along with Lonnie, Poeltl, Murray, Lyles. I’ve gave up on the veteran leadership. It’s been more exciting to watch the young guns, whenever they’re a chance to play together that is.

[Dr. John R. Brinkley]

Fatigue, injuries, and/or confusion over his role (and therefore the role of others) probably explains 99% of it.

[GreekSpursfan]

One of the lowest paid players is never hurting any team, we have way bigger problems.

[Poolboy5623]

Not sure how anyone could thrive with this current team as it stands..

[Spurs Homer]

Anyone gonna start the game thread...

spurs playing for an audience of messicans in messico

as opposed to

spurs playing for an audience of messicans in texas?

[SpursDynasty85]

Noticed White was limping 3 games ago. Summer program he looked heavy. Hopefully all this gets fixed when he gets healthy and Pop starts to just play his young guys from now on.

[Sugus]

In theory, White’s shooting made him a better fit in the starting lineup. In reality, flipping White and Murray hasn’t done much good. The new starting lineup (White, DeRozan, Aldridge, Bryn Forbes and Rudy Gay) has a net rating of -9.3 compared to the -9.7 of the original starting unit (Murray, DeRozan, Aldridge, Forbes and Trey Lyles).

:pop: Hmm, so both starting lineups with personnel changes are almost equally as bad, you say? Wait, not every player in the SL was switched out? Yeah, that must just be a coincidence then... Weird!

[dbestpro]

Pop is becoming both the best and worst coach the Spurs ever had.

[RC_Drunkford]

The coach is hurting the Spurs. Uncles hurt the Spurs. A lot of players on the team are hurting the Spurs, but Derrick White is not one of those. He's not performing like last year, but he's still one of the better players on the team

[Mugen]

Assuming this is the first part of a 15 part article series? :lol

[itzsoweezee]

Popovich is hurting the Spurs. This is not hard at all.

Imagine keeping the most dynamic two-way player on the roster chained to the bench and pointing fingers at the players. Fucking dumb

[sasaint]

Assuming this is the first part of a 15 part article series? :lol

16.

[cd021]

Assuming this is the first part of a 15 part article series? :lol
:lol Technically this is part 5, already did Pop, DeRozan, Murray, Poeltl and now White, also did the tear-down article too.

[cd021]

Pop is becoming both the best and worst coach the Spurs ever had.

Someone on Spurs Reddit- normally not the best place for Spurs takes- made the point that Pop is making a poorly built roster worst with his coaching.

He cost the Spurs the Cleveland game, and probably atleast half a dozen games already.

[DPG21920]

Will be interesting for White today. No Devin Booker to contend with so will he get aggressive and score more?

The prop bet on White for scoring is Over/Under 9.5 points

[RC_Drunkford]

Someone on Spurs Reddit- normally not the best place for Spurs takes- made the point that Pop is making a poorly built roster worst with his coaching.

He cost the Spurs the Cleveland game, and probably atleast half a dozen games already.

But it has made Walker a better player according to TimVP and other sniffers

[ZeusWillJudge]

The team is in complete disarray. The roster has three of the worst defenders in the league getting prominent minutes. The two "stars" on offense are iso-heavy, and moody. Bryn Forbes is a "dot" - a one-dimensional figure. That leaves White and Poeltl/Lyles in the SL trying to play basketball. I think that singling White out as the thing hurting this team is a bit of a stretch. He's still young, and he's supposed to be developing at this stage. I would love to hear an explanation of how he's supposed to do that in this shitshow of a roster, with a coach that appears to have Alzheimer's.

[cd021]

The team is in complete disarray. The roster has three of the worst defenders in the league getting prominent minutes. The two "stars" on offense are iso-heavy, and moody. Bryn Forbes is a "dot" - a one-dimensional figure. That leaves White and Poeltl/Lyles in the SL trying to play basketball. I think that singling White out as the thing hurting this team is a bit of a stretch. He's still young, and he's supposed to be developing at this stage. I would love to hear an explanation of how he's supposed to do that in this shitshow of a roster, with a coach that appears to have Alzheimer's.

It's worth mentioning that Mills grades out significantly better in a number of the stats that I used in the article.

White isn't the sole reason why the Spurs are struggling but he certainly isn't helping.

Perfect example is that he's shooting about the same amount of shots at the rim as last season but is shooting 12% worse, his assist rate is down too. His defensive metrics have been outright bad too- even for this team.

[cd021]

But it has made Walker a better player according to TimVP and other sniffers

To be fair to Pop, Walker's defense is noticeably better. He's staying in front of his man and getting a hand up, that's definitely not something he was doing earlier.

He needs more of a leash and a lot more minutes but Pop hasn't been as inept dealing with IV as he's been overall.

[Mugen]

Stan Van Gundy just said the Spurs move the ball, should be fun to watch since they don't play isolation ball....

God bless his heart :lol

[timvp]

White back to the bench :wow

[Mugen]

:lol Technically this is part 5, already did Pop, DeRozan, Murray, Poeltl and now White, also did the tear-down article too.

:tu

[timvp]

Stan Van Gundy just said the Spurs move the ball, should be fun to watch since they don't play isolation ball....

God bless his heart :lol

I mean, if we weren't Spurs fans, would we be watching them play, tbh?

[ZeusWillJudge]

It's worth mentioning that Mills grades out significantly better in a number of the stats that I used in the article.

White isn't the sole reason why the Spurs are struggling but he certainly isn't helping.

Perfect example is that he's shooting about the same amount of shots at the rim as last season but is shooting 12% worse, his assist rate is down too. His defensive metrics have been outright bad too- even for this team.


You're comparing stats of bench players vs. SL players. I'm not even going to discuss it. You either understand the limitations of that or you don't.

Just out of curiosity... did you happen to look at any of White's splits? Like starter vs reserve? Maybe month by month? I'm guessing you didn't. In October, when he was coming off the bench (like Mills) he had an ORTG of 142 and a DRTG of 108. As a starter, he has an ORTG of 108 and a DRTG of 116. But off the bench he has an ORTG of 118 and a DRTG of 114. Since you aren't weighing in the fact that Mills is playing against bench players, I guess we'll just ignore that for White too?

Have you noticed whether Aldridge's numbers are off from last year, and from the rest of his career? Have you noticed Rudy Gay's shot chart compared to last year? (Surely you've at least noticed that he's shooting .276 from 3P, on higher volume Per 36?) Have your eyes told you anything about other teams actually running their offense to go to whoever is being guarded by Forbes and Beli? Asking for a friend.

Look, I can't argue about White looking bad at times. But taking that to the conclusion that "White is hurting the team" is a step too far. The team is in disarray. The team is hurting the team. The coach is hurting the team. The fact that the team gets killed on 3-pointers every game is hurting the team. The fact that hey have three of the worst defenders in the league getting big minutes, and they can't get a stop is hurting the team. I wish White was playing better - he probably will on his next team. But at worst, he's playing down to the level of most of the rest of the team.

I appreciate the work that goes into your articles. But they can't all be gems. Maybe your intent wasn't to single out White like he's more of a problem than a dozen other things, but that's sort of where it went. I disagree with that conclusion.

[duncan2k5]

To be fair to Pop, Walker's defense is noticeably better. He's staying in front of his man and getting a hand up, that's definitely not something he was doing earlier.

He needs more of a leash and a lot more minutes but Pop hasn't been as inept dealing with IV as he's been overall.

His defense would have been better regardless...even the best defenders have 5 minute spans where they make mistakes...especially while young

[cd021]

You're comparing stats of bench players vs. SL players. I'm not even going to discuss it. You either understand the limitations of that or you don't.

Just out of curiosity... did you happen to look at any of White's splits? Like starter vs reserve? Maybe month by month? I'm guessing you didn't. In October, when he was coming off the bench (like Mills) he had an ORTG of 142 and a DRTG of 108. As a starter, he has an ORTG of 108 and a DRTG of 116. But off the bench he has an ORTG of 118 and a DRTG of 114. Since you aren't weighing in the fact that Mills is playing against bench players, I guess we'll just ignore that for White too?

Have you noticed whether Aldridge's numbers are off from last year, and from the rest of his career? Have you noticed Rudy Gay's shot chart compared to last year? (Surely you've at least noticed that he's shooting .276 from 3P, on higher volume Per 36?) Have your eyes told you anything about other teams actually running their offense to go to whoever is being guarded by Forbes and Beli? Asking for a friend.

Look, I can't argue about White looking bad at times. But taking that to the conclusion that "White is hurting the team" is a step too far. The team is in disarray. The team is hurting the team. The coach is hurting the team. The fact that the team gets killed on 3-pointers every game is hurting the team. The fact that hey have three of the worst defenders in the league getting big minutes, and they can't get a stop is hurting the team. I wish White was playing better - he probably will on his next team. But at worst, he's playing down to the level of most of the rest of the team.

I appreciate the work that goes into your articles. But they can't all be gems. Maybe your intent wasn't to single out White like he's more of a problem than a dozen other things, but that's sort of where it went. I disagree with that conclusion.


Really not sure how you can look at the numbers and suggest that White isn't hurting the team. I never suggested that he is the reason why the team is as bad as they are but when comparing last season to this season, its night and day. I did look at the splits btw;

https://stats.nba.com/player/1628401/advanced/

October-
Off Rating-113.0
Def Rating-104.4
Net Rating- +8.6

November -
Off Rating-106.3
Def Rating-111.4
Net Rating- -5.1


December-

Off Rating-96.2
Def Rating-122.3
Net Rating- -26.1

As Starter

Off Rating-100.0
Def Rating-115.9
Net Rating- -15.9

As Reserve

Off Rating-110.9
Def Rating-108.6
Net Rating- 2.3

[dbestpro]

White needs about 3 months rest.

[RC_Drunkford]

Really not sure how you can look at the numbers and suggest that White isn't hurting the team. I never suggested that he is the reason why the team is as bad as they are but when comparing last season to this season, its night and day. I did look at the splits btw;

https://stats.nba.com/player/1628401/advanced/

October-
Off Rating-113.0
Def Rating-104.4
Net Rating- +8.6

November -
Off Rating-106.3
Def Rating-111.4
Net Rating- -5.1


December-

Off Rating-96.2
Def Rating-122.3
Net Rating- -26.1

As Starter

Off Rating-100.0
Def Rating-115.9
Net Rating- -15.9

As Reserve

Off Rating-110.9
Def Rating-108.6
Net Rating- 2.3

It's weird why he's so passive. Last year once he got acclimated he averaged about 15 points as the starting PG. Now he has games where he ends up with 2 points and shoots 4 times. Doesn't make sense to me. He has to be aggressive out there and shoot the ball more

[GAustex]

White is moving around like he has a small rock in each of his shoes

[Keepin' it real]

I said spurs should have traded him after playoffs. His value was at an all-time high. Now we're seeing the real D White.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Really not sure how you can look at the numbers and suggest that White isn't hurting the team. I never suggested that he is the reason why the team is as bad as they are but when comparing last season to this season, its night and day. I did look at the splits btw;



You're saying he's playing worse than last year. I agree with that. But saying that he's hurting the team means that they would be better off without him. Sorry, but it's a logic thing. If something is hurting you, you're better off without it. Tell you what - Tim Duncan's numbers were WAY the hell off his last season. People couldn't understand why he was "being so passive". They speculated that he was deferring to other guys, etc. It's exactly the same things you're saying about White - he wasn't playing nearly as good as he played the year before, and his numbers were all way down. Are you going to tell us that Tim was hurting the team?

And no... you didn't look at the splits before I told you to. But before you get too cocky with those numbers, check out the advanced game logs here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/whitede01/gamelog-advanced/2020/ I'm pretty sure the numbers you have are wrong, even if they did come from NBA.com. (I had one of these discussions with either DPG or Chinook earlier in the year, and they came back and said the site must have been wrong.) But even with your numbers, you can see that White's USG% was much higher playing with the bench, as was most everything else. There's good reason to say that playing with this dysfunctional SL is hurting White much more than he is hurting the team.

What you're saying is that he's hurting the team by not being better? Well, duh. That's pretty much every player on the team. What the splits (even your splits) show is that he started out the season pretty good with the reserves. Things have gone south since he's been playing with Forbes, DDR, and Aldridge. Have you even noticed that Gay's ORTG as a reserve is 111, but in five games as a starter it's 83?

DDR, Aldridge, and Forbes ARE the starting lineup. And anyone stuck in that Matrix is fucked. Maybe if White was an older, more seasoned player, he could have handled it better. Maybe he's lost confidence. But hurting this shitshow of a team? Phhht.

[ZeusWillJudge]

It's weird why he's so passive. Last year once he got acclimated he averaged about 15 points as the starting PG. Now he has games where he ends up with 2 points and shoots 4 times. Doesn't make sense to me. He has to be aggressive out there and shoot the ball more


I put this in my stupidly long response to the OP, but DDR/Aldridge/Forbes ARE the starting lineup. The ball doesn't move, they don't move without the ball, there's no PnR being run... the list goes on and on. White was confident last season. He's not this year. Think about all the shit you've been complaining about, and see if you can come up with a theory about how a young guy out of nowhere could get that confidence beaten out of him.

This team is as dysfunctional as some of the NYK teams I've laughed about.

[cd021]

You're saying he's playing worse than last year. I agree with that. But saying that he's hurting the team means that they would be better off without him. Sorry, but it's a logic thing. If something is hurting you, you're better off without it. Tell you what - Tim Duncan's numbers were WAY the hell off his last season. People couldn't understand why he was "being so passive". They speculated that he was deferring to other guys, etc. It's exactly the same things you're saying about White - he wasn't playing nearly as good as he played the year before, and his numbers were all way down. Are you going to tell us that Tim was hurting the team?

And no... you didn't look at the splits before I told you to. But before you get too cocky with those numbers, check out the advanced game logs here: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/whitede01/gamelog-advanced/2020/ I'm pretty sure the numbers you have are wrong, even if they did come from NBA.com. (I had one of these discussions with either DPG or Chinook earlier in the year, and they came back and said the site must have been wrong.) But even with your numbers, you can see that White's USG% was much higher playing with the bench, as was most everything else. There's good reason to say that playing with this dysfunctional SL is hurting White much more than he is hurting the team.

What you're saying is that he's hurting the team by not being better? Well, duh. That's pretty much every player on the team. What the splits (even your splits) show is that he started out the season pretty good with the reserves. Things have gone south since he's been playing with Forbes, DDR, and Aldridge. Have you even noticed that Gay's ORTG as a reserve is 111, but in five games as a starter it's 83?

DDR, Aldridge, and Forbes ARE the starting lineup. And anyone stuck in that Matrix is fucked. Maybe if White was an older, more seasoned player, he could have handled it better. Maybe he's lost confidence. But hurting this shitshow of a team? Phhht.


I did check the splits during the writing of my article and basketball reference's offensive, defensive, and net rating are actually off. Basketball References is, well, a good reference but it seems that even people like Zach Lowe and Nate Duncan don't use it for those particular stats because they are, apparently, inflated and instead use NBA.com's.

It does seem a bit suspect that he would have an offensive rating of 148 in almost 100 minutes in October, that's an absurdly high number for a relatively decent sample size.

https://stats.nba.com/game/0021900380/advanced/

I checked you link, for the first game of the season BR him with an Off. rating of 105 and a Def. Rtg of 107

NBA.com has him with an Off rating of 98.1 and a D Rtg of 82.4



You're saying he's playing worse than last year. I agree with that. But saying that he's hurting the team means that they would be better off without him. Sorry, but it's a logic thing. If something is hurting you, you're better off without it.


-That logic doesn't follow, he can hurt the team but that doesn't mean that they would be better off without him. I have a left foot that I rolled recently, it still hurts, but that doesn't mean that I would be better off without it. He can improve, my foot can improve, things can turn around but he's going to have to play better.

The point that I thought I made pretty clear is that he's a good player who is having a bad season. At the end of the article I specifically stated that the Spurs are going to need him to play better if they want him to make the playoffs.

It not like i've singled White out btw, I wrote articles on DeRozan, Poeltl, Murray, and even Pop's struggles, as well as a tear-down article. I'm well aware that he isn't the sole reason that they'll 10-15.

[Prose]

a guy who “doesn’t know how good he is” and is “not aggressive” is not going to respond well to coming off the bench.

[timvp]

White is moving around like he has a small rock in each of his shoes

Yep. And that, unfortunately, is the No. 1 sign of plantar issues.

[TDMVPDPOY]

might as well shut him down for the season

dunno why pop is still trying to save the season for another first round fodder exit

[GAustex]

Yep. And that, unfortunately, is the No. 1 sign of plantar issues.
Why then, if he is injured, is he not being treated so that he is not running around with a rock in his shoes.

I assume the answer is that he cannot make the injury worse or something like that.

I just do not beloeve his level of play, explosiveness, speed and quick jump has fallen off so fast.

I would prefer the Spurs get him healthy. Or if he is never gonna be healthy trade him which is a thing i hate to say since i am a fan of White...who seems to do more with less unlike dumbshits like:
In order of dumbshitedness
DDR
LMA
DJM

[CGD]

Poor white. He’s really in a tough spot. It’s like he’s the QB who is that game manager type (Alex Smith) who is there until the the star QB is ready (Mahommes). He’s also being ask to clean up all the starters’ F ups.

[JeffDuncan]

Poor white. He’s really in a tough spot. It’s like he’s the QB who is that game manager type (Alex Smith) who is there until the the star QB is ready (Mahommes). He’s also being ask to clean up all the starters’ F ups.

Yes, there are times when White enters the game they ought to send him out there with a cattle prod.

[FkLA]

https://media.giphy.com/media/I5xVnGJRHZZf2/giphy.gif

[cd021]

Why then, if he is injured, is he not being treated so that he is not running around with a rock in his shoes.

I assume the answer is that he cannot make the injury worse or something like that.

I just do not beloeve his level of play, explosiveness, speed and quick jump has fallen off so fast.

I would prefer the Spurs get him healthy. Or if he is never gonna be healthy trade him which is a thing i hate to say since i am a fan of White...who seems to do more with less unlike dumbshits like:
In order of dumbshitedness
DDR
LMA
DJM

It's kinda concerning that the best he's looked is after 5 days off. They practiced a couple of times but I would guess that he didn't have to go full out, there.

After less than two days off he played and looked limited again.

[Harry Callahan]

White needed time off for the entire summer and the Olympic Team stuff came up. Its hard to turn down that opportunity when you have your home town coach tugging at you. Duncan had PF issues during the middle of his time in SA and it healed.

[poopbox]

It's not really him that is worse...it's everything that's around him that is worse...

[FkLA]

https://twitter.com/EricSal_7/status/1206232575854989313?s=19

[BackHome]

Derrick had his best run last year when DEROZZ was hurt for a couple of games.

[RC_Drunkford]

https://twitter.com/EricSal_7/status/1206232575854989313?s=19

right on the money. He has to take at least 9+ shots and be more aggressive on offense.

[Yogatti]

Just a reminder Spurs skimped out on medical staff which could explain why Derrick White is still not healthy

[cd021]

https://twitter.com/EricSal_7/status/1206232575854989313?s=19

His usage rate is identical to last season, it's not like he's not getting the ball. That's kinda of a silly tweet.

[cd021]

Just a reminder Spurs skimped out on medical staff which could explain why Derrick White is still not healthy

Think it's more to do with the summer of basketball. He came into the season without fully recovering from his first full season.

[Collins21]

His usage rate is identical to last season, it's not like he's not getting the ball. That's kinda of a silly tweet.

This dude also said Derrick White is a top 10 SG in the league. Also he compares in him to Brandon Roy so that would explain his silliness.

[duncan2k5]

I thought Spurs never played hurt players? I thought they were the most conservative team ever? I'm sure Gasol and Green disagrees... But whatever... Keep playing White until he goes down, right? Then get mad at him for not coming back when you want and bash him in the media

[Slippy]

These sort of articles are dumb. Why? Bryn Forbes starts on the spurs. He hurts his teammates more than anyone.

[cd021]

I thought Spurs never played hurt players? I thought they were the most conservative team ever? I'm sure Gasol and Green disagrees... But whatever... Keep playing White until he goes down, right? Then get mad at him for not coming back when you want and bash him in the media

The Spurs clearly misdiagnosed Green and Gasol. Kawhi and the Spurs disagreed on the problem but they gave him control over his rehab. I still think that it was more in Kawhi than PATFO.

[YGWHI]

Thanks for the article!

Agree with you that White impact numbers aren't the same of last year but IMO if someone is hurting this team is Pop with his lineups/rotations and his late-game plays.

Since 2011 Pop is making an effort to call all the wrong plays down the strech.