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Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 08:34 AM
www.nydailynews.com/sport...3031c.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/102773p-93031c.html)


Sprewell could land in San Antonio

By FRANK ISOLA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Latrell Sprewell's days in New York appear to be numbered.

The Knicks are trying to find a fourth team willing to be included in a complicated trade that would involve sending Sprewell to San Antonio and with the Knicks getting Keith Van Horn from Philadelphia, according to a person familiar with Scott Layden's thinking.

Last week, there were reports that the Sixers would get Malik Rose from San Antonio but the Spurs have said they will not trade Rose, a backup power forward who also happens to be Tim Duncan's best friend on the team. It is unclear as to which club is the fourth team in the deal or whom the Sixers will get in the proposed trade.

One Western Conference GM said yesterday the Knicks were close to trading Sprewell to the Spurs. However, a Knicks spokesman denied that a trade was imminent.

Reached yesterday in at his home in Utah, Van Horn acknowledged being aware of the trade rumors but declined to comment.

Layden, the Knicks' president and GM, yesterday was in Salt Lake City, where the Knicks' summer league team is participating in the Rocky Mountain Revue. He was unavailable for comment.

Layden has tried to trade Sprewell since last summer and has turned down several deals, including a trade with Milwaukee that would have brought Glenn Robinson to Madison Square Garden. Robinson eventually was traded to Atlanta.

Sprewell has two years remaining on his contract that will pay him $26 million. One of Sprewell's close friends said Sprewell maintains that he wants to finish his career in New York, but that Sprewell also believes there is a strong chance he will be traded.

Sprewell is the team's most popular player but his relationship with management has been strained since April of 2002, when he failed to show up for a morning shootaround in Miami. Five months later, Sprewell arrived for training camp with a broken hand and was banished from the team for two weeks for failing to notify the club of his condition. He was also suspended for one exhibition game.

Sprewell missed the first eight games of the 2002-03 season and the Knicks started the year 1-7. Overall, they were 37-45.

On the last day of the season, during a press conference to announce Don Chaney's contract extension, several players were praised by Garden officials for their individual performances. However, Garden chairman James Dolan, Layden and Steve Mills, the president of Garden sports operations, all failed to mention Sprewell.

And yet, Sprewell finished second on the team in scoring and steals and ranked third in assistants and fourth in rebounding.

Many NBA scouts feel that if the Knicks swap Sprewell for Van Horn they will be sacrificing toughness for more scoring. The Knicks had no trouble scoring last season; they averaged 95.9 ppg., Their problem was stopping the other team from putting up an average of 97.2 ppg.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 09:04 AM
The only reason for a 4th team to be involved would be to send something to Philadelphia. The Spurs can basically offer that 4th team the ability to clear up to $12 mil in salary off the books. But the Sixers would have to be willing to take on whatever contract(s) that other team is willing to send out.

Here's an interesting thought...what if the Warriors join the deal in order to clear up the cap space to match the offer to Arenas?

Or perhaps the Spurs sign and trade Claxton as part of the deal and the Warriors send some players to Philadelphia?

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 10:46 AM
Cassius, you and I have always pined for Spree on the Spurs, but is now the time?

Rose, for all his "short"-comings, is still clearly our best big off the bench.

The tandem of Manu and Jack literally give us everything Sprewell would give in terms of skills and passion.

I don't know about this one.

We must have plans to add a credible big man to the bench, too.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 10:52 AM
Rose is off the table according to the article. I would surmise that the Knicks are looking for a 4th team that would give Philly back something other than cap relief from KVH's contract.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 10:53 AM
Also, if the Spurs have made a $5 mil offer to Horry they must've given up on landing Sprewell.

MannyIsGod
07-22-2003, 10:55 AM
Exactly, I think this trade is dead in the water.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 10:56 AM
Why would the $5 million offer kill a deal for Horry?

We'd be trading some salary away to get Spree, right?

Why are we offering the downtrodded Horry $5 million anyway?


Question.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 10:57 AM
Basically if they offer Horry $5 mil then they would need to deal Rose but as we can see Rose is apparently off the table.

MannyIsGod
07-22-2003, 10:59 AM
Well, thats true, if we do a sign and trade with speedy and jax, it could = the diffrence.

Question is, what does that do to piatkowski? We're losing speedy, so i woudln't mind doing a S&T w/ him and jax for spree.

We'll see though.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 11:00 AM
If you S&T those two then their salaries come out of the cap space until the Spurs go over the cap. Then the Spurs wouldn't have enough salary to send out.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 11:04 AM
Does signing Horry for that much money make Rose expendable?


Question.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 11:05 AM
I would say no. Horry's role is likely to be the 4th big with perhaps some time at the 3 depending upon the situation. He'll have the "Ferry role" but obviously he will be an upgrade. This is a shrewd move by the Spurs should it go down.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 11:07 AM
$5 million is a lot to pay someone for the "Ferry role".

I think the Spurs see him doing more than that. I hope.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 11:08 AM
Well, he'll be an asset to have as a reserve. He's not as limited as Ferry is. Keep his minutes down and keep him fresh for the playoffs.

50 Cent
07-22-2003, 11:11 AM
The Spurs management team has gone completely off the deep end if they offer Horry 5M a year. That's fucking crazy. I'm all for Horry coming, but for closer to the vet min. than $5M.

MannyIsGod
07-22-2003, 11:16 AM
Well, it makes no diffrence what they pay him to be honest with you.

Its not like we need the capspace to sign anyone else,so they can offer him an inflated deal to make sure he doesn't go back to the lakers or dallas.

Having this guy off the lakers is huge, and I don't think the lakers realize it.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 11:19 AM
Manny, who is backing up Parker next season?


Question.

:cooldevil

Spurminator
07-22-2003, 11:27 AM
Assuming we land Horry for the 5 million, don't we still have plenty left over to sign a backup PG? How much would that leave us?

SAmikeyp
07-22-2003, 11:30 AM
Manny, who is backing up Parker next season?

Manny is!! the dude can ball!! :fro

MannyIsGod
07-22-2003, 11:49 AM
Ghost,

is 7 million in capspace enough to get a backup point guard?

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 11:57 AM
Sure, Manny. I'd like to square the backup PG away before we throw $5 million at a washed up player who will only see 10 minutes a night for us if we bring back last year's rotation.

:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-22-2003, 11:59 AM
Ghost, don't act like Pop and RC only talk to one player at at time. They have several negotiations going on, I'm sure of that.

You don't sit around and tell a player to hold on because you haven't filled another need that is not directly related, and Horry and a backup PG are not directly related.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 12:03 PM
Whatever, Man. I'd just assume save the money for a better acquisition. It baffles me that the front officce would overpay for a guy that actually helped us beat LA with his awful shooting, yet we turn a blind eye to Lamar Odom.

That's par for the course this offseason.




:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-22-2003, 12:09 PM
There is plenty of money to go around, 7 million left after this deal for a point guard is MORE than enough.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 12:12 PM
That's true, Manny.

I guess I'm just not ready to overpay for crap when there's still guys like Odom out there. :(





:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-22-2003, 12:13 PM
I wanted odom too. The drug situation is apparently too much to stomach.

If he gets suspended again, they'll look smart. If he blows up and doesn't get suspended, well then , ****.

We'll see.

TwoHandJam
07-22-2003, 12:18 PM
The Spurs are obviously not interested in Odom. It also makes no sense to overpay for the "chance" of getting a RFA in Odom who we're not even sure has his head on straight and has been injury prone.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 12:27 PM
Oh yeah, TwoHand. Horry at $5,000,000 is a much better scenario. :rolleyes





:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 12:29 PM
Ghost, you are engaging in some of the most pointless bitching imaginable.

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-22-2003, 12:30 PM
Come on Ghost, Odom will be a Clipper. They're working on extending his contract for 5 years. Read the news man.

It's time to start filling out our roster. That offer to Horry is 100K above what any of the teams (like Dallas) could pay him.


AHF

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 12:33 PM
Odom is one infraction away from either a season long or lifetime ban.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 12:40 PM
:sleep

A week ago you two jabronis were all over Odom.

Sorry I am not thrilled about a Nesterovic/Horry summer.

We're resorting to filling out the bench with overpriced players just because we have money to burn and no one good wants to sign with us... or we're too afraid to go out and sign them.

Whoopty-friggin' do.

:cooldevil

scott
07-22-2003, 12:50 PM
The Rasho/Horry summer shouldn't be viewed as that. It still leaves us with $6-7 mil in cap room to add talent via a trade. Have some faith- the summer ain't over yet.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 12:58 PM
I am counting on that trade, scott. I hope Horry for $5 million doesn't hamper that, that's all.


:cooldevil

KoriEllis
07-22-2003, 01:08 PM
I was told yesterday by a Spurs source that this deal was dead and that the Spurs were starting to offer contracts to other FA's (which is now evidenced by the Horry article).

I will have him double-check today about this trade to make sure. My assumption at this point is that this is just hopeful thinking on the part of the Knicks, or a rumor that just won't die.

If I find out otherwise, I'll let you know.

T Park Num 9
07-22-2003, 01:20 PM
TO ME!

It seems the deal is dead, they wouldnt be trying to sign Robert Horry and trade for a 13 million dollar Spree.


Horry Pike and others seem to be coming.....

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 01:25 PM
Sprewell > Rose > Jack > Piatkowski > Horry


Next.


:cooldevil

scott
07-22-2003, 01:28 PM
Rose + Jack + Piatkowski/Horry + $7 Cap space > Spreewell.

Next.

T Park Num 9
07-22-2003, 01:31 PM
agree 100% Scott....

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 01:39 PM
And you two obviously don't understand that it wouldn't take all of that to get Spree.

Next.

:cooldevil

T Park Num 9
07-22-2003, 01:40 PM
It wouldnt???


I see......

Guess they instituted a limitless cap number then.

scott
07-22-2003, 01:42 PM
The deal is Rose to Philly and Spree to us.

Jack is the odd man out on the minutes as Pop sticks with his old reliable, Bruce Bowen.

We can no longer afford Piatkowski or Horry, because we have no cap space.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 01:53 PM
Pop didn't stick with ol' reliable when it mattered most in the playoffs.

He went with Jackson.

The Spurs could still afford Horry if we traded Rose to get Sprewell, champ.

Piatkowski would not be needed with Sprewell, Manu and Jack on the squad.

You were saying?


Question.

:cooldevil

KoriEllis
07-22-2003, 02:03 PM
If the Spurs are offering $5M to Horry, then they only have around $7M to make the Spree deal. That means they'd have to get rid of both Rose AND Bowen's contracts to have room for Spree. I don't see them considering that.

As a sidenote to Ghost: your boy Jack's agent is being a jerk, but the Spurs are working hard on his deal.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 02:09 PM
$7 million and Rose's contract isn't enough for Sprewell?

Even more reason not to bring in Horry for $5 million.


:cooldevil

scott
07-22-2003, 02:12 PM
Pop didn't stick with ol' reliable when it mattered most in the playoffs.

He went with Jackson.

The Spurs could still afford Horry if we traded Rose to get Sprewell, champ.

Piatkowski would not be needed with Sprewell, Manu and Jack on the squad.

You were saying?

In your imaginary world, Pop would suddenly show Bowen the door, replacing him with Jackson in the starting lineup.

In the real world, Jackson is gone or benched if we bring in Spreewell. You can choose to live in your world, or reality. But don't whine like a baby when your fantasies don't come true.

As Kori corrected you, the Spurs would have to get rid of of Rose AND Bowen to get both Spree and Horry.

You are right the Spurs would not need Piatkowski with Spree, Manu, and Jack on the team... expect Jack wouldn't be a critical player on the team. That leaves us with the initial equation.

Rose + Jack + Horry + $7Mil Caproom > Spree.

You were saying?

KoriEllis
07-22-2003, 02:16 PM
No Rose's contract isn't enough.

$7M (room) + $~5M (Malik) < $13.5M (needed for Spree)

ChumpDumper
07-22-2003, 02:21 PM
This Spree trade ain't happening because neither the Knicks or Sixers need Rose or Bowen and the Spurs don't want to give up Manu--and at least one of those guys would have to go out in any trade for Spree.

Pretty simple.

tlongII
07-22-2003, 02:22 PM
Why would the Spurs want Spree anyway? Dude's a freaking cancer. Maybe the Blazers should sign him?

ShoogarBear
07-22-2003, 02:23 PM
The thing that really makes the most sense is this:

S&T Speedy plus draft pick + ? other throwin for Spree.

-Knicks need point guard
-Speedy goes home, and wasn't going to sign with Spurs anyway

No third team needed.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 02:26 PM
ShoogarBear took the thought right out of my mind.

S&T Claxton and whatever for Sprewell.

Everybody's happy.


:cooldevil

scott
07-22-2003, 02:27 PM
S&T'ing Claxton doesn't give us any more caproom, since he isn't under contract anyway.

We're still in the same position.

ChumpDumper
07-22-2003, 02:27 PM
Had the Knicks liked such a package, Spree would have been a Spur last week, Shoog.

KoriEllis
07-22-2003, 02:30 PM
The Spurs have a $5M offer on the table to Horry, therefore they don't have $12M available, they have $7M. A mere signandtrade with Speedy and picks doesn't make enough room to have Spree.

And even if the Horry deal wasn't on the table, the Knicks are looking to get a big by getting rid of Spree. Speedy isn't big. The Spurs made them a similar offer last week and they didn't accept.

Admiral
07-22-2003, 02:42 PM
Horry's role is likely to be the 4th big with perhaps some time at the 3 depending upon the situation. He'll have the "Ferry role" but obviously he will be an upgrade. This is a shrewd move by the Spurs should it go down. -Cassius Clay

Why on earth would we pay a guy $5 million to be the fourth big off the bench with spot duty at small forward?!? If he's like Ferry, he will rack up the DNP-CD's in no time. Man we're desperate.

As for the Sprewell trade, I hope it doesn't go down. The time to obtain Spree was six years ago.

And Ghost, I don't see Odom leaving the Clippers. Even if he were, I think it's too risky to offer him a big deal after his tendency toward injuries and drug use.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 02:43 PM
Ghost Writer demonstrates, yet again, that she'll bitch about anything. What a damn freak. We can never have a quality discussion without her ill-informed ass whining about God only knows what throughout the thread. Give it a rest, miss.

MannyIsGod
07-22-2003, 02:45 PM
Then we're left with nothing but minimum contracts to fill out the roster. No thanks.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 02:47 PM
Fvck off, Cassiuss. All you do is complain about my perceived complaining.

I'd rather work a deal for Sprewell than overpay for Horry.


:cooldevil

ShoogarBear
07-22-2003, 02:47 PM
Despite his size, Horry is much weaker at the 4 than at 3.

He's sort of the anti-Malik in that sense.

If a) you discount the salary, which I agree is too much, and b) assume last year was an anomaly, and Horry has at least one good year left in the tank, then it's a nice pickup. I don't think Horry will bitch about lack of minutes or the occasional DNP. If he does, Willis can straighten him out.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 02:47 PM
Why on earth would we pay a guy $5 million to be the fourth big off the bench with spot duty at small forward?!? If he's like Ferry, he will rack up the DNP-CD's in no time. Man we're desperate.


BECAUSE FUCKER, HE CAN STILL PLAY AND AS WE SAW IN THE PLAYOFFS THIS YEAR, IT PAYS TO HAVE SOME FUCKING EXPERIENCED PLAYERS ON THE BENCH. GODDAMMIT GET A FUCKING CLUE YOU WHINEY ASS DUMBASS. ****.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 02:49 PM
STFU, Cassius.


If you paid attention to the playoffs, you would've seen Horry is done, dipsh1t.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 02:50 PM
And if you paid attention you would know that he played heavy minutes last season. When haven't you bitched about the Spurs, young lady?

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 02:53 PM
Nice excuse.

I can't wait to pay $5 million to a guy wo'll play 10 MPG and missed almost every shot he took in the playoffs.


We've gone from talking about Elton Brand and Jermaine O'Neal to Rasho Nesterovic and Robert Horry.

That's not b1tching, b1tch.

That's the reality of the situation.

Deal with it.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 02:55 PM
Go. Just go. It's time you stop trying to make the entire board miserable.

scott
07-22-2003, 02:56 PM
Spreewell has shot significantly below his career averages the last two seasons- a case can be made that he isn't at the top of his game either.

Rose + Jack/Bowen + Horry + $7Mil Capspace > Spreewell

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 02:57 PM
:sleep

I'm sorry. Were you trying to spin reality again?

Or were you upset because I'm not a blind, labotomized homer like yourself.

Rasho and Horry! Hurray for our team!

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 02:58 PM
You're right. I'm glad I'm not a miserable bitch with my nuts in a vise and a dildo up my ass like you.

Walton Buys Off Me
07-22-2003, 03:12 PM
Why is it we (myself included) always have to resort to tacky namecalling?

Unfortunately, even though I'm having a great day and I'm nowhere near miserable, I have to side with Ghost on this one.

The bottom line is this Spurs fans......if, three months ago, before the title, you were told that 1. The Lakers would sign Malone and Payton for a combined 6.5 million and 2. The Spurs would fail with Kidd, O'Neal and Brand and 3. The Spurs and their fans would be talking about Nestrovic as a replacement for Robinson and adding Robert Horry.....how would you feel?

Personally, I feel like this offseason has been a total failure- and we haven't even signed Horry yet!

Call me miserable, call me a bitch, call me whatever, but do not deny that if this reality was presented to you three months ago- you would not be contemplating suicide.

Is our front office to blame? No- they tried their best, but the reality of the situation is that even though we are the champions and had a golden opportunity to get better- for a number of reasons we didn't. We sure as hell aren't worse but whereas our competition significantly improved- namely the Lakers and Wolves, we simply haven't- and to argue that is simplistic nicalodeon thinking.

KoriEllis
07-22-2003, 03:14 PM
Great Post, Walton.

:fro

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 03:18 PM
Thank you, Walton.

Unfortunately, homers hate the truth.


:cooldevil

scott
07-22-2003, 03:20 PM
Great post, Walton. But the summer doesn't end with the signing of Horry. We still have $7 million in cap room.

I think the reason people are disappointed in this offseason's moves are because of the expectations we had. If we didn't go into the summer with the bundle of cap room and the opportunity to get a max-FA, I think we'd be okay with adding Rasho to replace Dave and Horry to replace Ferry while maintaining all of our core players (less Claxton).

Its like we bought a lottery ticket, expecting to get the jackpot. When we only got a secondary prize of $50,000 we are disappointed because we didn't get the $100 million.

But we still have the $50,000.

El Harbinger
07-22-2003, 03:21 PM
I wouldn't mind getting Horry if he came really cheap.

But NOT for 5 million this year.

That dude did nothing in the playoffs to deserve that kind of money.

There is a freaking reason why LA has not even attempted to get him back.

Hell...he was a big reason we even beat the Lakers last year....I dont think he hit even a single 3 pointer in that series...and he shot quite a few.

What are we trying to reward his crappy shooting for the Lakers last year by paying him off this year?

There HAS to be some better moves that we can do than overpaying this guy.

El Harbinger
07-22-2003, 03:25 PM
By the way...that move would be getting sprewell here.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 03:27 PM
Yes, you had unrealistic expectations if you thought signing a star this summer was guaranteed. Of course last summer we were subjected to round after round of bitching from GW and GW Jr and we know what happened.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 03:30 PM
:cry


You people act like nothing could've been done to avoid this disappoinment.

We could've pursued free agents over the past two years.

We could've pursued trades over the past two years.

We didn't.

We refused.

We gambled.

And lost.

:cooldevil

Walton Buys Off Me
07-22-2003, 03:30 PM
If we didn't go into the summer with the bundle of cap room and the opportunity to get a max-FA, I think we'd be okay with adding Rasho to replace Dave and Horry to replace Ferry while maintaining all of our core players (less Claxton).

Scott, to me this a redundant statement that ignores the reality of the situation. I understand what you're saying about expectations and I agree with you. It's not easy prying franchise players off their current squads. However, other teams with cap flexibility seem to have had better luck than San Antonio. If you look at Denver- they will land Andre Miller. Utah looks like they're zeroing in on Brad Miller and the Clippers have yet to match their offer to Maggette. Granted these are not the biggest fish in the pond, but make nicer meals than Rasho and Horry:wink

As I said, to blame our front office is childish- they did their damnest to get these guys, but in the end- it didn't work out. But please don't dismiss reality by making hypothetical statements. The reality is we had the money- and for the most part the attractive players- safe Odom- are accounted for. Even Orlando in the summer of 2000 failed on Duncan, but still managed to land Grant Hill (no comment) and a guy by the name of Tracy McGrady.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 03:32 PM
So now Ghost thinks the Spurs "lost"? Well if not for that championship last month he might actually be right.

Get a clue, chump.

MannyIsGod
07-22-2003, 03:33 PM
I think anyone complaining about Horry's paycheck shoudl realize its moot because the money doesn't have a diret effect on anything else.

He's overpayed, at the expense of it being a one year deal, and we have more money that we're going to be able to spend anyhow, so it really doesn't hurt us if we overpay him.

Yes, its a bad value type deal, but it doesn't hurt the team and its not your money, so why do you guys care so much?

The only thing it prevents is that spreewell deal, which sucks either way

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 03:35 PM
Would it be preferable for the Spurs to give him a 2 year deal starting at $3 mil knowing that the Spurs could use that $3 mil next summer towards signing Ginobili to something other than a contract starting at the MLE?

But no, that would actually make sense. Let's bitch like Ghost does all fucking morning without understanding why the Spurs made that offer to Horry. F'in A.

scott
07-22-2003, 03:35 PM
Like you said, Walton, the reality is we did our best. So what is there really to be disappointed about?

We aren't worse than we were last year, and you could argue that we will be better with a center who can score a little more and a year of experience for our young core. It is frightening that the Lakers and Wolves are getting better- but there is nothing we can do about that. That is reality. We can sit around and be disappointed at what could have been (which is NOT reality)- or we can continue to try to improve our team.

And IMO, Spreewell for Malik Rose and either Jackson or Bowen while giving up $7 mil in capspace does not make us better.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 03:37 PM
Try reading in context, Cassius.

The front office purposely cleared cap space, passing on trades and refusing to sign any stars beyond 2003 for the exprees intent on bringing in a star this summer.

That plan failed.


:cooldevil

KoriEllis
07-22-2003, 03:38 PM
We gambled.

And lost.

And also we could have played it your way and traded, etc. in the last two - three years and never entered the Holting Pattern. We could have (or not) won a championship and we could have no cap room right now.

Who knows what could have happened.

But I know one thing, if we never entered the Holting Pattern and had no cap room right now, some peeps would be bitching in that circumstance too.

The lesson being, this is life. You make choices and make decisions what path to follow. You can't please everyone and things don't always play out to the best case scenario. And they don't always play out to the worst case scenario. Most of the time they land somewhere in between.

Which, in my opinion, is where the Spurs are right now -- in between.

ducks
07-22-2003, 03:39 PM
yeah a ring failed :shootme

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 03:42 PM
Here's the fucking context: DRob retired. The Spurs decided to set themselves up for cap flexibility in the summer he retired. They did this to certainly make a run at a star and/or find a replacement. This is really not that hard to understand. They took a shot at a couple of franchise free agents. At least they had that damn chance. You've clamored forever that the Spurs played it too safe, were too "scared" and now you bitch because they "gambled." Give it up already.

What exactly did they "lose"? They won a damn championship with primarily a young core and most of that will be returning next season. Yet you bitch. You blame the Spurs for not gambling and then you blame them for gambling. You blame them for not pursuing max free agents and then you blame them for pursuing max free agents. Again and again and again it's always the same for you. You have to make everyone else miserable with your complaints about nothing. Give it a damn rest. Here the Spurs are coming off their second championship and sure as **** you are bitching about something.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 03:44 PM
But I know one thing, if we never entered the Holting Pattern and had no cap room right now, some peeps would be bitching in that circumstance too.


1. Ghost Writer
2. Admiral

Without a doubt. The 20/20 Hindsight Crew in effect.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 03:48 PM
It's not hindsight if you've been warning against something all along, Cassius.

Funny how you cahnged the Spurs' priorities to finding a Robinson replacement first and then a second star after the fact we failed at finding a second star.

:cooldevil



P.S.

Kori, we could've won two titles or none, We could still have a star under contract and no cap space or just Duncan and a bunch of cap space just like now. We'll never know for sure.

Hopefully, the front office learned their lesson — clearing cap space for a superstar is a crap shoot that rarely pans out.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 03:54 PM
:rolleyes

If they could've gotten a star they would've. They never expected to, that's something you've made up. Certainly they wanted to be sure they could find a starting big once DRob retired. That's been stated by RC before.

Of course under your Blow It All Now strategy the Spurs would not have had any youth and would have been capped out in the summer in which they had to find a replacement for DRob.

No thanks.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 03:58 PM
:sleep

Now you're just making stuff up.

You were the biggest proponent of "Bring ina Star in the Summer of 2003" to the point where I argued that the priority was to replace Robinson and you insisted it was to get a star at all costs.

Sell 'crazy' somewhere else. I ain't buyin'.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 04:01 PM
Sure I would have liked for them to lure a second franchise player to SA. BFD.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 04:05 PM
So you're cool that we didn't?

Perhaps you get over things a lot quicker than I do.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 04:06 PM
:rolleyes . Look, there were no absolutes that any star free agent was going to sign. Stop complaining about it. Would you rather they played scared?

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 04:15 PM
No.

I understood the severity of the gamble.

I just would've gambled differently a trade or a free agent signing instead of this all or nothing deal.

You're right, though.

No use crying over spilled Malik.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 04:19 PM
Ha. You once wanted them to run off DRob without any guarantee that Webber would sign. Don't talk to me about "gambles" son.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 04:21 PM
As did you, partna.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 04:24 PM
Not without a commitment from Webber.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 04:29 PM
Popovich was willing to let Robinson walk if it meant hanging on the line for Robinson. So was I.

If Webber was a Spur, perhaps he never suffers his injury last year.

I could live with Duncan and Webber.

:cooldevil

ChumpDumper
07-22-2003, 04:34 PM
Here we go again....

:rolleyes

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 04:36 PM
Pop was willing to replace DRob with Webber but not to see DRob walk without Webber on board. In any event would it have been wise to do as you wanted? Probably not, especially with Webber opting to never visit nor return Pop's calls.

CosmicCowboyXXX
07-22-2003, 04:47 PM
awwww...*sigh*

a trip down memory lane...

revisiting the mythical Webber for DRob trade....:lol

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 04:48 PM
Webber talked to popovich several times. Don't you remember the SportsIllustrated article I posted a bunch of times.

Popovich was quoted as pleading to Webber on the phone, "Just tell me you'll say 'Yes'."

Popovich told Robinson he was done.

Peter Holt panicked at fan unrest as Robinson was perceived to be left high and dry by Popovich.

Holt needed @sses in the SBC Center. He demanded popovich re-sign Robinson. The day we screwed the pooch and re-sign Robinson for $10.5 million over two season, the goofs from Webber's camp wanted to talk contract specifics.

Too late.

That's what really happened.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 04:51 PM
Webber said he didn't return Pop's calls. Losing DRob without a commitment from Webber made no sense. That's why the Spurs didn't do it. Now you complain about them being too reckless though a scant two years ago they weren't reckless enough. Go figure.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 05:06 PM
sportsillustrated.cnn.com...01/29/nba/ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/basketball/nba/news/2002/01/29/nba/)

It's Tim's Time

David Robinson's slump has prompted Tim Duncan to grab the reins for the Spurs

By Ian Thomsen

For his first four seasons Tim Duncan was the Spurs' quiet man. He was an All-Star who hid his emotions and deferred to his celebrated elder teammate, David Robinson. Now it is clear Duncan will defer no more. Although he will never be mistaken for a chatterbox, the 25-year-old Duncan has been speaking up in the huddle, directing teammates on the court and demanding a high level of play from everyone, including Robinson, who is in the worst slump of his 13-year career.

Robinson's numbers (11.0 points per game, 7.8 rebounds and 1.88 blocks at week's end) are all down from last season. In a five-game stretch last month coach Gregg Popovich benched him three times for the entire fourth quarter, including during a 98-81 home loss to the Lakers in which Shaquille O'Neal didn't play and Robinson was outscored and outhustled by Mark Madsen. Rather than ducking the issue, Duncan backs Robinson's critics both inside and outside the locker room. "If the heat David has been getting changes his play for the better, it's a good thing," Duncan says. "Hearing it from other people -- the media, his teammates -- can light a fire, and that's the best way to get somebody rolling."

With Avery Johnson's off-season move to Denver and Sean Elliott's retirement to the Spurs' TV booth, leadership is at a premium in San Antonio. Popovich is glad to see Duncan asserting himself. "David always led by example," Popovich says. "We're pushing Tim to be a leader harder than David was pushed, and he's responding very well."

Duncan resolved to sharpen his focus after last season, when the Spurs won a league-high 58 games only to be swept by the Lakers in the Western Conference finals. "I set goals to have the best season of my career," says Duncan, who is putting up MVP-caliber numbers. Through Sunday he was No. 1 in the league in rebounds, (12.7 per game), No. 3 in blocked shots (2.79) and No. 6 in scoring (25.3) -- all career highs. He was even hitting 82.2% of his free throws, up from 61.8% a year ago. A newfound intensity is apparent in the way he snaps up a rebound or in the anger he shows at his own mistakes.

Behind Duncan -- and despite adding nine new players -- the Spurs jumped to a 20-4 start. They lost nine of their next 18 because of a tough schedule, injuries and Robinson's struggles, the last of which has drawn the most attention. Popovich says he has been replacing Robinson with 6'7" Malik Rose in the fourth quarter mainly because opponents have been going with smaller lineups. There may be more to it than that. According to a friend of Robinson's, the Admiral's relationship with Popovich has been strained since last summer, when Popovich tried to re-sign him for about half of his 2000-01 salary of $14.7 million, to reduce payroll enough to acquire significant free-agent help. When Robinson balked, San Antonio courted free agent Chris Webber, who ultimately stayed with the Kings.

"I just don't think you can play anymore," Robinson says that Popovich told him. Popovich won't confirm or deny that he made that remark, but he did re-sign Robinson for $20 million over two years and granted him a no-trade clause.

Many believe that Popovich benched Robinson to inspire him, knowing the Spurs will have no chance at the title unless he's at his best. Opponents believe Robinson's age and aching back are catching up with him. "The Twin Towers aren't scary anymore," says Webber, "even though Duncan is." Says a Western Conference coach of Robinson, "He's certainly sliding, and pretty fast. Defensively he can still change a game, but the ferocity isn't there anymore. On offense he's become an afterthought. It's Tim's show now, and he's a one-man show."

The day after the home loss to L.A., Robinson told the San Antonio media that it was his responsibility to earn more minutes. In a private meeting with his coach, however, Robinson used different words. "I told Pop that whatever the situation is, I've got to be on the floor," Robinson says. "I feel as good as I have in a long time. I just have to figure out how I can be more effective for Tim and this team."

Robinson played better last week, including a 16-point, seven-rebound, three-block performance in a loss to the Nets. At week's end Duncan and Robinson were together producing 36.3 points per game, 20.5 rebounds and 4.66 blocks -- not far from their average production over the preceding four years (39.2 points, 21.7 boards and 4.79 blocks). Nonetheless, the gap between Robinson and Duncan has never been larger.

"As long as David's mind is in the game, he's going to be a force," Duncan says. "When we forget that we need to help each other and push each other, that's when we don't do very well."

Issue date: February 4, 2002
sportsillustrated.cnn.com...01/22/nba/ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/magazine/basketball/nba/news/2002/01/22/nba/)

Fit for the Throne

Finally committed to the Kings, Chris Webber has them shooting for a crown

By Ian Thomsen

Sacramento's fans are known as the best in the league, but they expressed mixed feelings for Chris Webber when the Kings jumped to a surprising 15-5 start while he recovered from a sprained left ankle suffered in preseason. "I could hear a few boos and murmurs that the team was maybe better off without me," says Webber. "I remember saying to myself, My ankle is hurting at this exact moment that you're booing me."

It’s hard to imagine how the Kings could be better without the unselfish Webber, who at week's end was leading his team with 24.4 points, 10.4 rebounds and 1.7 blocks per game, while averaging 5.1 assists and 1.7 steals. It's no coincidence that the Kings went on an 11-game winning streak when his ankle felt strong enough for him to play under the basket without fear. "I talked to Chris earlier this season about how expectations were so unrealistic that there was nothing he could ever do to meet them," says team president Geoff Petrie. "But I look at our record [a league-best 30-9] and the way he's been playing, and he may be exceeding them."

Still, it's hard for some fans to forget Webber's threat to leave Sacramento as a free agent before he agreed last summer to a seven-year, $122.7 million contract (second in total dollars only to Kevin Garnett's six-year, $126 million deal). Webber, 28, acknowledges he came close to moving to Indiana or San Antonio -- the latter in an intriguing deal that would have paired him with Tim Duncan. Webber was convinced that San Antonio wanted him to replace free-agent center David Robinson. When Webber didn't respond to the Spurs' calls, they re-signed the 36-year-old Robinson for $20 million over two years. "Coach [Gregg] Popovich kept calling, saying 'Just tell me yes,'" Webber says. "I love Tim Duncan's game. I would not have minded playing in a situation like that, even though people would have said, 'Chris had to go there to win a championship.'"

Indiana was attractive to Webber because it's close to his home in Detroit and he relished playing for Isiah Thomas. Even more appealing, however, was that he and center Jermaine O'Neal could have combined on a front line that would have ruled the Eastern Conference. Speculation at the time was that the Pacers would have to trade O'Neal to Sacramento to acquire Webber. Indiana had other plans, says Webber: "They were looking to sign [free-agent] Antonio Davis and then do a sign-and-trade for me." Ultimately Webber realized he could sign a rich contract and contend for the league title with Sacramento, which has progressed each year since he arrived by trade before the 1998-99 lockout season.

Much of the Kings' improvement this season is attributable to the arrival of point guard Mike Bibby in a draft-night trade for Jason Williams and swingman Nick Anderson, which signaled a new focus for the franchise. Beginning in his 1998-99 rookie season, Williams helped turn the eternally passive Kings into a bold, exciting playoff team. Sacramento, however, tired of his tendency to hoist quick three-pointers and make clever, dangerous passes when simple ones would do. The 23-year-old Bibby's balanced approach has helped seven Kings average in double figures, as opposed to four last season, and Sacramento is no longer the kind of topsy-turvy club that falls behind by 15 points before fighting back.

"Now it's time to get serious about trying to beat the Lakers or San Antonio," says Joe Maloof, who owns the Kings with his brother Gavin. "We'll know if [the trade] was a good decision at the end of the year. If we get to the Western Conference finals, we'll know we're making strides. If we get knocked out in the first round, then we have to reevaluate."

Webber believes no such reevaluation will be necessary. He and center Vlade Divac preside over a locker room that is not obsessed with individual statistics. Webber is averaging 2.7 fewer points than last year, but the scoring ability of his teammates -- led by fourth-year pro Peja Stojakovic, who is having an All-Star caliber year -- and Webber's knack for passing out of the double team often force opponents to play single coverage against him. As a result he gets as many open looks at the basket as any superstar in the league.

With a big smile Webber recalls how he "hated" Petrie after the lockout, when he says the Kings refused to trade Webber to the Lakers for Elden Campbell and Eddie Jones. How many championships could he have won with Shaq? "I didn't want to be here," Webber says. "But I can honestly say I'm glad I'm not a Laker. I believe we're going to win a championship, maybe not this year, but sometime. If I'm right, it will mean we did it together, as a team, without having to ride anyone's back."

Issue date: January 28, 2002


Holt reacted to the simpleton fans wanting Robinson back and demanded Robinson be re-signed to the chagrin of Popovich, myself and a handful of fans who are loyal to the ring.

Daring Robinson to walk to NY in favor of Webber is less risky than waiting two years to try and sign a star free agent.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 05:10 PM
Yeah, Pop called Webber and left messages like that. I suppose you missed the following when you were bolding text in those articles:


When Webber didn't respond to the Spurs' calls, they re-signed the 36-year-old Robinson for $20 million over two years.

Oops. Apology accepted.

Webber didn't return Pop's calls. He stated specifically in an interview I read that he wouldn't take Pop's calls personally because he wanted to stay in Sacto and not be persuaded to bolt for SA.

At least get your shit correct.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 05:13 PM
Daring Robinson to walk to NY in favor of Webber is less risky than waiting two years to try and sign a star free agent.


That's absurd. Then where does the bigman come from when DRob walks and CWebber stays in Sacto?

At least the Spurs get two more years out of DRob and a title under the way it played out.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 05:18 PM
Please post your imaginary article.

Popovich clearly was willing to risk losing Robinson for Webber. So was I.

I could deal with Webber today.

You're a fvcking idiot if you think Robinson would've played elsewhere.

At least we would've gotten the big gamble out of the way two years ago.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 05:20 PM
:lol

You asserted that Pop spoke with Webber. He didn't. He merely left messages. Webber wouldn't respond so the Spurs re-signed DRob.

You were wrong.

End of story.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 05:21 PM
It doesn't matter if Pop spoke to Webber or not. There was communication.

What matters is that Popovich was willing to risk losing Robinson to get Webber. So was I.

Robinson wasn't going anywhere. He couldn't survive a season in NY and you know it.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 05:24 PM
I don't have to post another article all I have to do is quote the one you posted. Thanks for highlighting the section too.

:)



Still, it's hard for some fans to forget Webber's threat to leave Sacramento as a free agent before he agreed last summer to a seven-year, $122.7 million contract (second in total dollars only to Kevin Garnett's six-year, $126 million deal). Webber, 28, acknowledges he came close to moving to Indiana or San Antonio -- the latter in an intriguing deal that would have paired him with Tim Duncan. Webber was convinced that San Antonio wanted him to replace free-agent center David Robinson. When Webber didn't respond to the Spurs' calls, they re-signed the 36-year-old Robinson for $20 million over two years. "Coach [Gregg] Popovich kept calling, saying 'Just tell me yes,'" Webber says. "I love Tim Duncan's game. I would not have minded playing in a situation like that, even though people would have said, 'Chris had to go there to win a championship.'"

So Pop kept leaving messages and Webber continued not to respond. The Spurs did the 'sensible thing' and did not opt to play the free agency roulette you have suddenly developed an aversion for. Give it a rest, kiddo. You're out of your league.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 05:25 PM
It doesn't matter if Pop spoke to Webber or not. There was communication.

Fairly one-sided that "communication" was during that time. Of course you just asserted that Pop was talking with Webber and now we see that wasn't true. Go figure.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 05:29 PM
classic.sacbee.com/sports...ings1.html (http://classic.sacbee.com/sports/kings/articles/2001/jul/20010710kings1.html)

Kings' offer irks Christie: His agent says the guard hopes to stay, but the numbers don't compare.
By Martin McNeal
Bee Staff Writer
(Published July 10, 2001)
LONG BEACH -- Negotiations between the Kings and the representatives of free-agent guard Doug Christie, characterized by his agent as "heading in the right direction" three days earlier, hit a serious snag Monday.

The snag is so serious, Christie's agent Brad Marshall said, that the NBA's

second-team All-Defensive guard is questioning whether he wants to return to the Kings.

"The numbers the Kings are posing are so disturbing that he is fearful that he will have to pack up his family and sign with another team for numbers more in line with his skills and contributions,"

Marshall said Monday night.

Marshall said he met Monday for five hours in Sacramento with Kings president of basketball operations Geoff Petrie.

Just Friday evening, Marshall said he was pleased with the progress of the negotiations and was anticipating meeting with the Kings. Monday, Marshall said Christie signing with another team is a distinct possibility.

"We're kind of wondering what they are thinking," said Marshall, who refused to divulge either the salary numbers his side is seeking or those the Kings are offering.

Marshall did say, however, "the numbers they are offering ... we're talking numbers that are about 30 or 40 percent of what guards like (Indiana's) Jalen Rose 10.8, (Miami's) Eddie Jones 10 and (Phoenix's) Penny Hardaway make."

Marshall was speaking in terms of millions of dollars to be earned next season by those players, all of whom are signed to multiyear deals. Hardaway will be paid $11.2 million.

"We're talking significantly less than those players who everybody believes are comparable players," Marshall said. "Doug is definitely a better defender and is just a little bit off at the offensive end."

Webber watch -- The San Antonio Spurs are the latest team to begin courting free-agent forward Chris Webber.

Though the Spurs have been involved in their own free-agent dilemmas involving center David Robinson and shooting guard Derek Anderson, they have been in contact with Webber's negotiating team.

Webber is intrigued by the possibility of playing alongside fellow All-Star Tim Duncan and is accepting and returning the Spurs' calls.

Over the weekend, Webber invited the Kings into the mix. His attorney and aunt, Charlene Johnson, met with Petrie in Las Vegas.

Jeff Webber, Chris' brother, also is part of the negotiating team. However, Jeff says the decision will be made by Chris alone.

"The process is for Chris to have a chance to weigh his options," Jeff Webber said.

Petrie said another meeting was scheduled with Webber's people this week.

"If that happens, that would probably be Chris and Charlene meeting with Geoff," Jeff Webber said.

According to Jeff Webber, Chris' options realistically include the Spurs, whose coach and vice president of basketball operations is Gregg Popovich.

Chris Webber was a rookie at Golden State when Popovich was an assistant coach under Don Nelson for the 1993-94 season.

Popovich has been away from the Spurs' offices but has made consistent contact with Webber's group.

Said Jeff Webber: "I think the Spurs are very interested. They just sent us a proposal tape."

The tape detailed the virtues of living in San Antonio as well as playing for the Spurs franchise that won the NBA title during the 1998-99 season.

Summer Pro League -- Gerald Wallace scored 27 points, and Hedo Turkoglu had 26 in the Kings' 97-96 loss to the Seattle SuperSonics at the Pyramid. Wallace, the Kings' first-round choice from Alabama last month, made 11 of 25 shots.

Rashard Lewis had 24 points for the Sonics, and Vladimir Radmanovic, the Sonics' first-round pick from Yugoslavia, had 20.

1. Please post your imaginary article.

2. My point was that Popovich was willing to let Robinson walk to keep pursuing Webber. It doesn't make a difference if Webber stopped returning his calls. There was obviously communication between the two sides, as evidenced by the three articles I posted.

Apology Accepted™

:cooldevil

ChumpDumper
07-22-2003, 05:31 PM
It doesn't matter if Pop spoke to Webber or not.So not speaking to Pop = a lock to sign.

Gotcha.

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 05:31 PM
Are you really this dense? Pop never talked to Webber. In addition the Spurs did not receive any calls back from Webber. This is not hard to understand and so far everything you've posted states exactly what I have told you. Poor bastard.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 05:35 PM
"I don't think you can play.", "Constant contact" and "repeated calls" means Popovich wasn't willing to let Robinson walk?


Question.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 05:37 PM
Pop pursued Webber hard. Webber didn't bother to call back. Spurs re-sign DRob. Just because Pop pursued Webber doesn't mean he wanted to see DRob walk without a commitment from Webber.

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 05:39 PM
Cassius, you're killing me.

We've been over this.

Popovich didn't want Robinson back.

He wanted Webber.

You and I talked about Holt stepping in an making Pop re-sign Robinson at all costs.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 05:41 PM
Yes, I am "killing" you because you are posting lame arguments and giving anyone who bothers to read the articles you quote the ammunition to do it.

Shaq H8ter
07-22-2003, 05:56 PM
:sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep :sleep

Old news....
Water under the bridge...

Boring....

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 05:58 PM
:sleep

Quite franly, I could care less.

I would've dared Robinson to walk to NY and ignored the homer who had Holt's ears.

I know Robinson wouldn't have left.

If/when webber gave a definite 'No', then we still re-sign Robinson.

That's wate runder the bridge.

Just another example of the Spurs being spurned by a top-tier free agent.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-22-2003, 06:02 PM
:lol

Ok so stop bitching about it then.

T Park Num 9
07-22-2003, 06:49 PM
God i wish people would stop living in the past and get the **** over shit.


Jesus. It get s fucking old GET OVER IT
he stayed, we won a ring, weve moved on, NOW DO THE FUCKING SAME PEOPLE!!!

genghisrex
07-22-2003, 07:31 PM
It was almost two years ago to the day, during a lull in negotiations with David Robinson, when Spurs coach Gregg Popovich called the representatives of Chris Webber. Popovich wanted to know if the free-agent forward had any interest in changing his address.

Webber had played under Popovich when Popovich was an assistant coach at Golden State. He liked Popovich. He liked what Popovich had done with the Spurs.

He never called Popovich back.

"I didn't want to talk to him because I knew him too well," Webber said. "I knew how convincing he could be, and I knew he would make it very difficult for me to decide whether to go back to Sacramento."SHUT UP, GHOST (http://news.mysanantonio.com/story.cfm?xla=saen&xlb=212&xlc=1021723).

MannyIsGod
07-22-2003, 11:10 PM
Ghost...

I don't even know what to say...

lmao

:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin

TwoHandJam
07-23-2003, 12:24 AM
If we pay Horry 5Mil for 1 year then yes, I think he will be worth every penny. You, GW would be the first person bitching is Dallas landed him. Horry was a shadow of his real self last year because he was both tired and injured from covering for Shaq's fat ass all year. Stop bitching about a RFA we have no hope in landing and for whom we would have to grossly overpay to even have a shot at anyway.

Admiral
07-23-2003, 01:47 AM
Yeah, let's let DRob walk for a chance at Chris Webber. The same Chris Webber who is Charmin soft, injury prone, and one of the most overrated players in the league. I would rather blow a max deal on Jason Kidd first.

We wouldn't have won a title this year with no defensive presence whatsoever down low. Teams don't respect Duncan down low, as evidenced by the fact that teams attacked the rim like crazy when David would go to the bench. Chris Webber would've done nothing to change that. He's nowhere near the defender Tim is even. Offensively, would you enjoy watching Webber take that same right-handed jump hook and that same 18-foot jumper late in games? Would you have enjoyed hearing him whine about not getting more shots?

It's a shame that 95% of this board underestimates what DRob brought to the table. If we suck next year, the joy I could get out of that is that most of you could have your DRob bashing rubbed in your faces. You certainly deserve it after all the criticism you've dished out over the years.

The man will never get the respect he deserves for his talents on the court.

gospurs21
07-23-2003, 02:03 AM
^^^^
I totally agree, Webbers D pales in comparison David. Yet there are some in here that still claim we would have won 2 championships by going with china doll Webber instead of big Dave 2 years ago.

Go Spurs...

TDMVPDPOY
01-21-2013, 04:32 PM
lol if kl wore no.8

BlackSwordsMan
01-21-2013, 06:12 PM
uh why would you bump this

FkLA
01-21-2013, 06:20 PM
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/4205/picture7di6.jpg

'Im a wnker.'

apalisoc_9
01-21-2013, 06:28 PM
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/4205/picture7di6.jpg

'Im a wnker.'

Is this really TDMVPDPOY?

Looks likes your typical beta phag