Obama's problems come home to roost.

[RandomGuy]

The military has been stretched dangerously thin since the last few years of the Bush administration. The problems got worse under Obama, and are definitely not going to be solved by the current criminally corrupt and inept administration.

Faulty Equipment, Lapsed Training, Repeated Warnings: How a Preventable Disaster Killed Six Marines


Marine commanders did not act on dozens of pleas for additional manpower, machinery and time. When a training exercise ended in death, leadership blamed the very men they had neglected.

Capt. Jahmar Resilard and Capt. Austin Smith were hurtling over the Pacific Ocean at 280 miles per hour. From inside the cockpit of their U.S. Marine Corps fighter jet, they kept their eyes on the hulking fuel tanker flying ahead. Off to their right, two Marines in a second jet assigned to Fighter Attack Squadron 242 did the same.

The moon was below the horizon. The lights on all three aircraft were turned off. In total darkness, 50 miles off the coast of Japan, the two jets were to stick their noses into fuel hoses trailing behind the tanker’s wings.

Even for the most prepared aviators, the training mission was not simple. Doing it at night made it even trickier. The night vision goggles fastened to their faces badly constricted how much they could see, like wearing binoculars to operate heavy equipment.

...

https://www.propublica.org/article/marines-hornet-squadron-242-crash-pacific-resilard

[RandomGuy]

Years of Warnings, then Death and Disaster


How the Navy Failed its Sailors.

When Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin was elevated to lead the vaunted 7th Fleet in 2015, he expected it to be the pinnacle of his nearly four-decade Navy career. The fleet was the largest and most powerful in the world, and its role as one of America’s great protectors had new urgency. China was expanding into disputed waters. And Kim Jong-un was testing ballistic missiles in North Korea.

Aucoin was bred on such challenges. As a Navy aviator, he’d led the “Black Aces,” a squadron of F-14 Tomcats that in the late 1990s bombed targets in Kosovo.

But what he found with the 7th Fleet alarmed and angered him.

...

https://features.propublica.org/navy-accidents/us-navy-crashes-japan-cause-mccain/

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/da9f8d4a5e3214e5da6ac508f1fe2a5f0557d9c4/c=0-498-5561-3640&r=x1683&c=3200x1680/local/-/media/2017/08/21/USATODAY/USATODAY/636389121822954810-EPA-SINGAPORE-USA-NAVY-CRASH.jpg

[Chumpette]

Trump :cry

[rmt]

So what do you suggest, RG? Requests for more military spending will meet with resistance.

[DMC]

So increase military spending. That's a conservative goal.

[boutons_deux]

$700B / year

The totally corrupt MIC/military gets every billion that it wants and asks for

Ain't Obama's fault

America can't do shit anymore

[rmt]

Not the fault of Obama only - 'tis the nature of anything government-run - bloated, wasteful and inefficient - that's what you get when you're spending other people's money and not your own.

[ElNono]

Should just retire about half of the military, both equipment and personnel.

Don’t want ships sinking in the coast of Japan? Stop being the world police and don’t send ships there.

[Spurtacular]

So increase military spending. That's a conservative goal.

Not really. It's a warhawk goal shared by Democrats and Republicans alike.

[Spurtacular]

Should just retire about half of the military, both equipment and personnel.

Agree. But the equipment we do have should not be out of date sheeot.

[ElNono]

Agree. But the equipment we do have should not be out of date sheeot.

We spend gazillions in the greatest airplanes that can’t flight and the military doesn’t want. Military contractors cash in while vets end up living on foodstamps. That too is part of the welfare state.

[Spurtacular]

We spend gazillions in the greatest airplanes that can’t flight and the military doesn’t want. Military contractors cash in while vets end up living on foodstamps. That too is part of the welfare state.

It's a swamp.

[ElNono]

But then he’ll be called weak on terror, friend of Putin, etc etc etc

[DMC]

Should just retire about half of the military, both equipment and personnel.

Don’t want ships sinking in the coast of Japan? Stop being the world police and don’t send ships there.

This is a fact. Most of these incidents come from random patrols that are not needed, made just to fill a sortie or quota for some ship captain or admiral.

[DMC]

We spend gazillions in the greatest airplanes that can’t flight and the military doesn’t want. Military contractors cash in while vets end up living on foodstamps. That too is part of the welfare state.

I heard Rob O'Neill give a speech about the situation in Afghanistan, how it looked like a win until big, old government decided they wanted to turn towns into bases. This is old, decrepit thinking and it has infected the Pentagon for decades. Air superiority is a WWII concept. When has the US ever needed air superiority since WWII? Who are we going to dogfight against? I get being prepared for it, but there are more pressing military needs that could use that funding. Spending a trillion dollars to try to rebuild an entire country we cannot get any return on. It doesn't make any fiscal sense. If we could spend that here, we'd set this country up for the future instead of watching shit decay around us while high end aircraft fly useless sorties over air bases around the world.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Disband the military, dispose of all the US nukes, and let everyone in from the Middle East who wants to emigrate here. Fully open border policy. Also, US citizens that own homes must provide their spare bedrooms to make room for any and all immigrants to live while they are *getting it together*.

[Winehole23]

I heard Rob O'Neill give a speech about the situation in Afghanistan, how it looked like a win until big, old government decided they wanted to turn towns into basesAt any other time in our history the Afghanistan papers would be a big deal. Our government lied to us pretty much the whole way.

The thing to do was to declare victory and bring them home in 2003, alas, we were preparing to invade Iraq.

Why the fuck are we still there?

[ElNono]

I heard Rob O'Neill give a speech about the situation in Afghanistan, how it looked like a win until big, old government decided they wanted to turn towns into bases. This is old, decrepit thinking and it has infected the Pentagon for decades. Air superiority is a WWII concept. When has the US ever needed air superiority since WWII? Who are we going to dogfight against? I get being prepared for it, but there are more pressing military needs that could use that funding. Spending a trillion dollars to try to rebuild an entire country we cannot get any return on. It doesn't make any fiscal sense. If we could spend that here, we'd set this country up for the future instead of watching shit decay around us while high end aircraft fly useless sorties over air bases around the world.

Did you read about the new hypersonic stuff from Russia? I’m not even sure we still have air superiority.

On the other hand, it’s not unexpected. We got fat and lazy after the Cold War, looking for trouble to keep feeding the monster.

[DMC]

Did you read about the new hypersonic stuff from Russia? I’m not even sure we still have air superiority.

On the other hand, it’s not unexpected. We got fat and lazy after the Cold War, looking for trouble to keep feeding the monster.

"The Monster" being the wealthy subset of power players/families that profit from these wars. They live lavish lifestyles and work together to ensure the clique remains at the top. The trickle down from them keeps lackeys doing their bidding and us peasants delivering the grain and our children for these lifestyle supporting trysts.

[DMC]

Disband the military, dispose of all the US nukes, and let everyone in from the Middle East who wants to emigrate here. Fully open border policy. Also, US citizens that own homes must provide their spare bedrooms to make room for any and all immigrants to live while they are *getting it together*.

Hush up, adults are talking.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Hush up, adults are talking.

You know that post was sarcasm, right?

[ElNono]

"The Monster" being the wealthy subset of power players/families that profit from these wars. They live lavish lifestyles and work together to ensure the clique remains at the top. The trickle down from them keeps lackeys doing their bidding and us peasants delivering the grain and our children for these lifestyle supporting trysts.

I’m not sure how they live their lives nor I care frankly. I care how they perpetuate a system of political and economic greed and corruption. That, directly or indirectly, affects me. There’s no trickle down as far as trickle down being a ‘lift all boats’ economic theory. They certainly need to deliver something at some point, as cheaply as they possible can, plus their lawyers and lobbying, the thing that keeps the Monster fed, are not free.

Ironic that purported free-market warriors are the first line of defense for this slime.

[DMC]

I’m not sure how they live their lives nor I care frankly. I care how they perpetuate a system of political and economic greed and corruption. That, directly or indirectly, affects me. There’s no trickle down as far as trickle down being a ‘lift all boats’ economic theory. They certainly need to deliver something at some point, as cheaply as they possible can, plus their lawyers and lobbying, the thing that keeps the Monster fed, are not free.

Ironic that purported free-market warriors are the first line of defense for this slime.

The trickle down affects those who do their immediate bidding. It doesn't float all boats. I am not talking about Reaganomics.

[Will Hunting]

Not really. It's a warhawk goal shared by Democrats and Republicans alike.
This. Bankrupting the country with a trillion dollars a year of defense spending has been a position both parties and the mainstream media have had for decades. The minute a candidate like Ron Paul or Tulsi runs on a platform of drastically reduced military spending he/she gets ostracized.

[Spurtacular]

This. Bankrupting the country with a trillion dollars a year of defense spending has been a position both parties and the mainstream media have had for decades. The minute a candidate like Ron Paul or Tulsi runs on a platform of drastically reduced military spending he/she gets ostracized.

And Chumpettes don't like either; I quite like them.

[ChumpDumper]

How much does Tulsi want to cut?

[Spurtacular]

How much does Tulsi want to cut?

A considerable amount since she won't need the military for phony wars.

[ChumpDumper]

A considerable amount since she won't need the military for phony wars.What is the considerable amount in dollars?

[Spurtacular]

What is the considerable amount in dollars?

Don't act like you're gonna run some numbers, Chump.

[ChumpDumper]

Don't act like you're gonna run some numbers, Chump.
I'm asking you for one number.

Do you have a number or are you just lying?

[Spurtacular]

I'm asking you for one number.

Do you have a number or are you just lying?

Desperation mode. You can't help yourself.

[ChumpDumper]

Desperation mode. You can't help yourself.You are getting increasingly desperate about your claim.

Do you have a number, derp?

Yes or no.

Just say no.

It's all right. Everyone who reads this will know you don't have a number already. Just admit it.

[Spurtacular]

You are getting increasingly desperate about your claim.

Yea, claiming that money will be saved on not engaging in phony wars is "desperate".

Geez, you need to get a hold of your compulsion, Blake Zero.

[Spurtacular]

It's all right. Everyone who reads this will know you don't have a number already. Just admit it.

:lmao The nothing w.
:lmao :cry Muh Chumpettes will know :cry

[ChumpDumper]

Yea, claiming that money will be saved on not engaging in phony wars is "desperate".But you have no number.

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao The nothing w.
:lmao :cry Muh Chumpettes will know :cryYou're saying this is an L for you?

Just say you don't have any number.

It's easy for an honest man to tell the truth.

[Spurtacular]

You're saying this is an L for you?

:cry If it's a nothing w for me, it's a nothing L for you :cry

:lmao QFT

[Spurtacular]

Just say you don't have any number.

I never claimed to need a number. This is just your pursuit of a nothing w.

[Spurtacular]

It's easy for an honest man to tell the truth.

You must be envious.

[ChumpDumper]

You must be envious.You never admitted you didn't have a number.

[Spurtacular]

You never admitted you didn't have a number.

It's not my job to verify your pretend w's.

[ChumpDumper]

It's not my job to verify your pretend w's.It's your job to declare them and keep track of them and whine incessantly about them?

[Spurtacular]

It's your job to declare them and keep track of them and whine incessantly about them?

:lol Chump lashing out.
:lol Mad he gets called out.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol Chump lashing out.
:lol Mad he gets called out.Called out on what?

Your declaring your own Ls?

:lol

[Spurtacular]

Called out on what?

Your declaring your own Ls?

:lol

Yea, those pretend L's are adding up.

Compulsive Blake Zero can't stop.

[ChumpDumper]

Yea, those pretend L's are adding up.

Compulsive Blake Zero can't stop.You're the one who can't stop declaring them.

[Spurtacular]

You're the one who can't stop declaring them.

Me noting your pretend w's is a big pretend w for you.

Seriously, Blake Zero; you're embarrassing yourself.

[ChumpDumper]

Me noting your pretend w's is a big pretend w for you.

Seriously, Blake Zero; you're embarrassing yourself.Sure, why don't you bump four or five of your revenge threads.

That'll show us!

[Spurtacular]

Sure, why don't you bump four or five of your revenge threads.

That'll show us!

They do trigger you, as Snitch Factor and others have shown.

[ChumpDumper]

They do trigger you, as Snitch Factor and others have shown.:lol Kori browses her own forum and now it's your new conspiracy theory.

[Spurtacular]

:lol Kori browses her own forum and now it's your new conspiracy theory.

Does it bother you that your Chumpette is a snitch?

[ChumpDumper]

Does it bother you that your Chumpette is a snitch?Tell us your conspiracy theory.

[Spurtacular]

Tell us your conspiracy theory.

Does it bother you that your Chumpette is a snitch?

[ChumpDumper]

Does it bother you that your Chumpette is a snitch?Tell us how he snitched in your latest conspiracy theory.

Or fold.

[DMX7]

Tell us how he snitched in your latest conspiracy theory.

Or fold.

He folds, but I bet he's got a great deflection coming up!

[ChumpDumper]

He folds, but I bet he's got a great deflection coming up!:lol It's hilarious how quickly he throws himself under the bus.

[Spurtacular]

Tell us how he snitched in your latest conspiracy theory.

Or fold.

You denying that your friend is a snitch?

[DMX7]

You denying that your friend is a snitch?

You didn't tell us how he "snitched". You fold.

[Spurtacular]

You didn't tell us how he "snitched". You fold.

Keep doing your Chump impressions, ABX7.

[DMX7]

Keep doing your Chump impressions, ABX7.

Fold and deflect. Fold and deflect. It's your thing.

[Spurtacular]

Fold and deflect. Fold and deflect. It's your thing.

I'm not deflecting from the fact that a snitch bitch is in your ranks.

[RandomGuy]

So what do you suggest, RG? Requests for more military spending will meet with resistance.

We don't really need more military spending. The issue is one of manpower, staffing, and the pace of operations.

More money may provide some mitigation of the problems by providing a boost to recruitment, but that is not going to be sufficient to solve the problem, which is systemic and cultural, as noted in the articles.

[RandomGuy]

$700B / year

The totally corrupt MIC/military gets every billion that it wants and asks for

Ain't Obama's fault

America can't do shit anymore

It is quite Obama's fault. The pushing of missions when there was not sufficient manpower, such as sending ships out at 80% strength, thereby overworking and undertraining them to the point of catastrophic and fatal accidents. Here we have essentially the exact same causes playing out in two different branches of the military. This was fully present and obvious in the Obama administration, and has gotten worse under the Trump administration.

Trump's administration is too corrupt and alarmingly incompetent to solve this problem. as noted in the OP article, his bizarre and hapless kowtowing to the North Korean dictatorship has made the problem of readiness even worse.

Obama definitely deserves blame for not solving the problem under his watch. Call a strike a strike man.

Trump will fully be to blame by the exact same token.

[RandomGuy]

Not the fault of Obama only - 'tis the nature of anything government-run - bloated, wasteful and inefficient - that's what you get when you're spending other people's money and not your own.

Smh. The world through conservative-colored glasses.

Would you like some wine with that confirmation bias?

In all due seriousness, if this is your take, you probably didn't really read through either article. For me your statement here simply shows how comically inept and out of touch with reality modern conservatives are. You either didn't read the article (ignorance), or read it but couldn't see past your own confirmation bias (faulty critical thinking). If you can't even understand how the problem is playing out in reality, you will have a much smaller chance of actually addressing it.

If you think I am being overly critical here, draw the line between the following two questions:

What specifically do the articles say is the problem, and how does that directly and explicitly support your statement here?

[RandomGuy]

Should just retire about half of the military, both equipment and personnel.

Don’t want ships sinking in the coast of Japan? Stop being the world police and don’t send ships there.

The United States, for better or worse has shouldered that burden. It provides us with a great deal of soft power.

[RandomGuy]

We spend gazillions in the greatest airplanes that can’t flight and the military doesn’t want. Military contractors cash in while vets end up living on foodstamps. That too is part of the welfare state.

Indeed.

We have been using contractors as proxy ground troops entirely too much. It hides the true costs of our engagements, and inflates those costs behind the scenes with the addition of profit motive.

[RandomGuy]

I heard Rob O'Neill give a speech about the situation in Afghanistan, how it looked like a win until big, old government decided they wanted to turn towns into bases. This is old, decrepit thinking and it has infected the Pentagon for decades. Air superiority is a WWII concept. When has the US ever needed air superiority since WWII? Who are we going to dogfight against? I get being prepared for it, but there are more pressing military needs that could use that funding. Spending a trillion dollars to try to rebuild an entire country we cannot get any return on. It doesn't make any fiscal sense. If we could spend that here, we'd set this country up for the future instead of watching shit decay around us while high end aircraft fly useless sorties over air bases around the world.

concept:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon%27s_New_Map

Book:
https://www.amazon.com/Pentagons-New-Map-Twenty-First-Century/dp/0425202399

lecture:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg7pZi6peD4

FWIW.

[RandomGuy]

This. Bankrupting the country with a trillion dollars a year of defense spending has been a position both parties and the mainstream media have had for decades. The minute a candidate like Ron Paul or Tulsi runs on a platform of drastically reduced military spending he/she gets ostracized.

Depends.

What countries would step into the security vacuum left by a drastically reduced US military?

Gabbard is looking more and more like a paid-for manchurian candidate whose only real platform seems to be directed from somewhere else...

[RandomGuy]

Did you read about the new hypersonic stuff from Russia? I’m not even sure we still have air superiority.

On the other hand, it’s not unexpected. We got fat and lazy after the Cold War, looking for trouble to keep feeding the monster.

Russian hypersonic weapons are not as operational as many seem to think, and the Russian government claims. Russia can ill-afford another arms race, so I find their pushing the technology kind of self-defeating.

[boutons_deux]

Gabbard is looking more and more like a paid-for manchurian candidate whose only real platform seems to be directed from somewhere else...

she's 2020's Jill Stein

[RandomGuy]

she's 2020's Jill Stein

(nods) I think we are going to have to put some serious effort into finding out just how much Russian money is flowing and to where.

The current administration and Trump party will not go along with that, but it will need to be done as soon as Democrats take back the executive branch.

[ElNono]

The United States, for better or worse has shouldered that burden. It provides us with a great deal of soft power.

It doesn’t add up. We projected same or more power for 1/4th of the cost 50 years ago. At an average 3% inflation rate, it would take ~125 years to match up what we spend now. Not to mention that military heavily tilted to technology now, which actually gets cheaper, not more expensive over time.

Times have changed too. This is not WWII or the Cold War anymore. Our deterring factor is obviously fairly greatly curtailed, considering advances by NK, Russia, and the turmoil in the Middle East.

So our ROI has greatly diminished over time. Time to back up and see where we’re spending our money.

[DMC]

It doesn’t add up. We projected same or more power for 1/4th of the cost 50 years ago. At an average 3% inflation rate, it would take ~125 years to match up what we spend now. Not to mention that military heavily tilted to technology now, which actually gets cheaper, not more expensive over time.

Times have changed too. This is not WWII or the Cold War anymore. Our deterring factor is obviously fairly greatly curtailed, considering advances by NK, Russia, and the turmoil in the Middle East.

So our ROI has greatly diminished over time. Time to back up and see where we’re spending our money.
This is something the SASC is constantly in charge of doing, but they are swayed by special interest groups. We won't see any shift in policy as long as politicians keep getting rich from government jobs. As long as the committee focuses on keeping jobs in their sectors instead of what's best for the country we'll keep having these issues.

[RandomGuy]

It doesn’t add up. We projected same or more power for 1/4th of the cost 50 years ago. At an average 3% inflation rate, it would take ~125 years to match up what we spend now. Not to mention that military heavily tilted to technology now, which actually gets cheaper, not more expensive over time.

Times have changed too. This is not WWII or the Cold War anymore. Our deterring factor is obviously fairly greatly curtailed, considering advances by NK, Russia, and the turmoil in the Middle East.

So our ROI has greatly diminished over time. Time to back up and see where we’re spending our money.

ROI would certainly be interesting, albeit enormously hard, to attempt to quantify.

We need a definite counter to the Chinese/Russian authoritarian narrative. Someone needs to be the proponent for human rights and freedom.

We can't do that effectively if other countries fall into the orbits of authoritarians themselves.

Not sure how to put a price tag on that.

[DMC]

ROI would certainly be interesting, albeit enormously hard, to attempt to quantify.

We need a definite counter to the Chinese/Russian authoritarian narrative. Someone needs to be the proponent for human rights and freedom.

We can't do that effectively if other countries fall into the orbits of authoritarians themselves.

Not sure how to put a price tag on that.

We don't need to police the world. Bad shit happens. You cannot be the savior of the world with a budget.

[ElNono]

ROI would certainly be interesting, albeit enormously hard, to attempt to quantify.

We need a definite counter to the Chinese/Russian authoritarian narrative. Someone needs to be the proponent for human rights and freedom.

We can't do that effectively if other countries fall into the orbits of authoritarians themselves.

Not sure how to put a price tag on that.

Dick swinging doesn’t win hearts and minds. I thought we figured that out a long time ago.

We don’t keep the biggest, baddest guns and bases all over the world as a deterrent factor, we use it as an intimidating factor. That was in a nutshell what the Cold War was.

You might not know what the price tag on a perceived item is, but you also know when a price tag is too high vis a vis everything else comparable out there. We spend more than the next two superpowers combined, and we apparently not always have the edge anymore. Time to revisit what we’re doing right and what we’re doing wrong, shrink up the obsolete, set up strategic goals, and prioritize. No better way to force that than closing up the money spigot some.

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1212738417580236800?s=19

[boutons_deux]

"We need a definite counter to the Chinese/Russian authoritarian narrative."

China has shown that an authoritarian govt can build a successful industrial economy, which will clearly surpass declining USA in a few years.

"Someone needs to be the proponent for human rights and freedom"

USA doesn't do that even domestically, while fucking up other countries, esp those that freely, democratically elected "socialist" govts and/or have resources the predatory, avaricious USA Capitalists lust after.

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/tedcruz/status/1212846527942680576?s=19

[Chris]

.