Grades: Spurs @ Bucks - Jan. 4, 2020

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-milwaukee-bucks-january-4-2020/

tl;dr: Walker replaces Forbes in the starting lineup :wow

[Spursfanfromafar]

The Bucks were a much superior team in terms of talent, superstar presence, deep bench and two way players. This loss was expected but I felt that the Spurs made it a fight atleast for two and a half quarters. The bad part was the fact that this fight was led by the veterans.. and the fact that Derrick White has clearly regressed this year. Sad. With Murray not making any leap for the better and White regressing ..and Walker not given adequate chances...the Spurs are stuck in mediocre mode with no high expectations for the future. Here's hoping they land a talent via a trade for Derozan or Aldridge.

[Slippy]

The starting five clicked on both ends . Going forward this has to be the SL . Not sure about the numbers but they showed more than enough.

Pop just doesn't have a pulse on the team. That's the biggest problem and DJ or DWhite on second uni6 can only help their defense.

[r0drig0lac]

"if Forbes stays on the bench, he should be able to guard other team’s reserves"
I doubt it

[NASpurs]

Now with Forbes on the bench, whatever good the starting lineup does, the bench is going to squander it. Pop can’t help but get hard at night thinking about playing any combination of Mills, Beli and Forbes off the bench. Two of those need to be gone.

[acoelho1]

Walker was a bit tentative on the offensive end but a little expected with Pop throwing him in the starting lineup on the road against the best team in the league.

[Dejounte]

Lonnie went from not getting minutes over Beli to jumping over him and starting over Bryn Forbes. Lonnie starting was the plan all along since the offseason, he just had to earn it.

[dbestpro]

Forbes, Mills and Beli combined for 57 minutes which is 57 minutes of no defense. I never thought I would see the day the Spurs give up 127 points and Pop gets a B+. My how far we have fallen. Pop is a moron.

[sananspursfan21]

Ugh moral victories amirite, amirite?

[sananspursfan21]

Thanks for the grades! This is one of a very few losses this season that I didn’t mind. Looked like our guys played hard and were poised for an upset, but this is where our team’s actual limitations are shown perhaps

[TimDunkem]

Why do you keep suggesting that Forbes can guard anybody? Even reserves? He is the worst defender in the league. Jfc.

[RC_Drunkford]

Why do you keep suggesting that Forbes can guard anybody? Even reserves? He is the worst defender in the league. Jfc.

Forbes can't even guard half of spurstalk

https://twitter.com/RealTomPetrini/status/1213676156039417856?s=20

:pop: pets > defense

[John B]

Walker in the starter brought a different face for this team, a fast-paced, athletic team who matched Bucks’ physicality for almost the entire game. Spurs seemed energized and might even have a chance to pull it off. Unfortunately Pop had to play Mills/Forbes/Beli together.

[Mugen]

It was weird how Lonnie appeared to be playing defense to start the game. I'm so used to that POS loser Bryn getting roasted from opening tip that I forgot what competent defense looked like :lol

[EasyMoney]

Bryn and patty need to be cut off at the 20 minute mark, unless they're going off.

[Dex]

"if Forbes stays on the bench, he should be able to guard other team’s reserves"
I doubt it

It's better than him trying to guard other team's starters.

I don't think Forbes should be starting, this is the problem with him coming off the bench...he is going to be out there next to Mills, Gay, and/or Beli. That lineup is going to get thrashed every time.

This team just isn't built to hide Forbes, to be honest.

[r0drig0lac]

It's better than him trying to guard other team's starters.

I don't think Forbes should be starting, this is the problem with him coming off the bench...he is going to be out there next to Mills, Gay, and/or Beli. That lineup is going to get thrashed every time.

This team just isn't built to hide Forbes, to be honest.

yes, we are not the Celtics 08

[emanueldavidginobili]

I hope Lonnie still starts and and Forbes goes to the bench along with White. Derrick White needs to step it up and take control of that second unit. He’s been so underwhelming this season.

About Keldon looking unathletic, he did play an OT game the night before playing 35 minutes. I watched that game and he was going balls to the wall the entire game.

[Leetonidas]

Everytime Pop decided to put Forbes, Mills, and Marco on the floor the Bucks lead swelled. Spurs had a 10 pt lead immediately lost because of this lineup. It's like Pop finally does something right and does the best he can to negate it by playing retarded lineups. I know Murray was out but there is absolutely no reason that trio should EVER share the floor at the same time

[JeffDuncan]

The only way any NBA team could hide Forbes would be to put him at the end of the bench, and never play him, outside of garbage time. Or maybe not even play him then, like Pop is doing with Carroll.

Whatever brain-like organ Forbes has in his head, it does not work for calculating the NBA level of play. It isn't just his physical limitations, Forbes has the basketball IQ of.... a basketball.

It might seem Forbes could do better guarding bench players, until we remember how he got destroyed by Yogi Ferrell. (Who??) Forbes got so shredded by a no-name bench player that finally even Pop noticed it, and took him out of the game.

Forbes is a G League gunner. That's his top. He should never have been promoted beyond that.

[John B]

I hope Lonnie still starts and and Forbes goes to the bench along with White. Derrick White needs to step it up and take control of that second unit. He’s been so underwhelming this season.


Problem with Lonnie starting, Murray is not a better shooter than White. Spacing is terrible. White has to start. Imo Lonnie is a better combo than Murray. Murray seems to fumble the ball going in, and Demar sets up the plays anyways. Murray playing from the bench might be able to hide Forbes/Mills against non starters.

[FkLA]

It's better than him trying to guard other team's starters.

I don't think Forbes should be starting, this is the problem with him coming off the bench...he is going to be out there next to Mills, Gay, and/or Beli. That lineup is going to get thrashed every time.

This team just isn't built to hide Forbes, to be honest.

A good team can really only get away with playing one Wombat (3 and no D guy). I have no idea what made Pop think he could get away with three. Arrogance? Senility?

[emanueldavidginobili]

Problem with Lonnie starting, Murray is not a better shooter than White. Spacing is terrible. White has to start. Imo Lonnie is a better combo than Murray. Murray seems to fumble the ball going in, and Demar sets up the plays anyways. Murray playing from the bench might be able to hide Forbes/Mills against non starters.
Murray can’t cover three guys at once. Whose going to run the second unit then? Like you said DJ fumbles the ball a lot and DDR being out there with him takes a lot of pressure of him. When DJ struggles with playmaking like he often does whose going to help him? Patty? Forbes? No thanks, Derrick is perfect for the second unit and has great chemistry with Jakob.

The spacing with be fine Lonnie brings a whole new element to the court. There should be more fast breaks and just an overall better pace and the emergence of LA’s three point shooting.

[KobesAchilles]

Walker needs to come off the bench. He’s useless as a starter. He needs to be Jaren Jackson out there. Just look to hoop and don’t worry about anything else. Rudy or Carrol needs to start.
I would prefer to keep White starting and keep DJ on the bench. DJ is longer and I feel like he plays faster which helps Lonnie and Mills. Play Lyles and Poetl together and that team is pretty good tbh.

[Capt Bringdown]

Problem with Lonnie starting, Murray is not a better shooter than White. Spacing is terrible. White has to start. Imo Lonnie is a better combo than Murray. Murray seems to fumble the ball going in, and Demar sets up the plays anyways. Murray playing from the bench might be able to hide Forbes/Mills against non starters.

White is not the player he is last year. Yet we saw last year what he did with steady minutes.
Murray on the other hand? With steady starter minutes he continues to unimpress.
I think the Spurs were bamboozled on this kid's potential.

[dbestpro]

Bench Forbes and Beli. Run Carroll and DDR at SF. Use Walker and DDR at SG. Run Murray and White @ PG. Add Mills as needed.

[RC_Drunkford]

Bottom line is Spurs need to make a trade for a forward and ship some of the dead weight (Forbes, Beli, Carroll) out

[BackHome]

White is not the player he is last year. Yet we saw last year what he did with steady minutes.
Murray on the other hand? With steady starter minutes he continues to unimpress.
I think the Spurs were bamboozled on this kid's potential.

To be honest he is coming back from a serious season injury so one year back from knee surgery I’ll give him a pass. But I will say that Murray to me is not a PG he is a SG I am hoping that his outside shooting will continue to improve next season.

[Sugus]

To be honest he is coming back from a serious season injury so one year back from knee surgery I’ll give him a pass. But I will say that Murray to me is not a PG he is a SG I am hoping that his outside shooting will continue to improve next season.

Totally agree. The Cavs are experiencing the same issue right now with Collin Sexton - originally meant to be a PG but showing more scoring prowess than passing vision and play-setting. That's what makes the White-Murray lineup so enticing: White can be the PG relieving Dejounte from that load and allowing him to roam free/cut to the rim. Them 2 together with Lonnie as SF could be a scary sight, but alas, Pop hasn't played all three a single minute so far in the season.

[RC_Drunkford]

Totally agree. The Cavs are experiencing the same issue right now with Collin Sexton - originally meant to be a PG but showing more scoring prowess than passing vision and play-setting. That's what makes the White-Murray lineup so enticing: White can be the PG relieving Dejounte from that load and allowing him to roam free/cut to the rim. Them 2 together with Lonnie as SF could be a scary sight, but alas, Pop hasn't played all three a single minute so far in the season.

Murray should definitely focus on his 3-point shot. If that falls he's a 3-and-D player with some driving and playmaking skills. That would allow him to play the 2 instantly. If the playmaking and handles improve he can be a PG, other than that he would still be a starting caliber 3-and-D SG. Makes sense

[ZeusWillJudge]

Totally agree. The Cavs are experiencing the same issue right now with Collin Sexton - originally meant to be a PG but showing more scoring prowess than passing vision and play-setting. That's what makes the White-Murray lineup so enticing: White can be the PG relieving Dejounte from that load and allowing him to roam free/cut to the rim. Them 2 together with Lonnie as SF could be a scary sight, but alas, Pop hasn't played all three a single minute so far in the season.


I've said it about Murray from the beginning. I had hoped they would make him a slashing 2 guard, who would be able to add decent 3P shooting to be a really valuable piece. Making him a PG, IMO, distracts from all the things he's best at and forces him to try and do something he's not natural at.

White was a serviceable PG last season, and he's the closest the team has to a point now. Patty's not, Bryn sure as hell isn't, and DJ really isn't either. It's a big problem for this roster.

[ZeusWillJudge]

The Bucks were a much superior team in terms of talent, superstar presence, deep bench and two way players. This loss was expected but I felt that the Spurs made it a fight atleast for two and a half quarters. The bad part was the fact that this fight was led by the veterans.. and the fact that Derrick White has clearly regressed this year. Sad. With Murray not making any leap for the better and White regressing ..and Walker not given adequate chances...the Spurs are stuck in mediocre mode with no high expectations for the future. Here's hoping they land a talent via a trade for Derozan or Aldridge.


IF the Spurs roster is used right, the biggest difference between the Spurs and a team like Milwaukee is Giannis. Overuse Forbes and Beli, and this team isn't even in the same zip code as the Bucks.

The Spurs don't have to be as bad as they are. They still wouldn't be a top-tier team, but if Pop wasn't suffering dementia, they wouldn't have to dream about just making the playoffs. Ditch Forbes and Beli, bring up Keldon and sign the best G-League PG available as a backup, and they would at least get that playoff appearance record that so many people seem to be worried about.

[Sugus]

I've said it about Murray from the beginning. I had hoped they would make him a slashing 2 guard, who would be able to add decent 3P shooting to be a really valuable piece. Making him a PG, IMO, distracts from all the things he's best at and forces him to try and do something he's not natural at.

White was a serviceable PG last season, and he's the closest the team has to a point now. Patty's not, Bryn sure as hell isn't, and DJ really isn't either. It's a big problem for this roster.

Dejounte is a very interesting prospect because I could see him going either way. The most important aspect to develop is his shot, which will fundamentally aid him whether we play him as a 1 or 2 - but whether he continues to try and develop PG-like skills or furthers his offensive scoring arsenal will decide his future role. I really wish he wasn't being coached by Pop, who puts players in the box-like roles he sees fit, and would be coached by someone who told him to go out there and do whatever comes to him. Anyhow, as long as we don't have Pop for much longer, he should still be able to accommodate his game under a different coach and being taught guard skills has proven useful to a lot of players (Anthony Davis off the top of my head) at expanding their game beyond purely their given roles.

In an ideal situation, the Spurs develop Weatherspoon, who's been playing quite nicely in Austin, as the future backup PG, and commit to a White-Murray-Walker trio as 1, 2, 3 respectively. Keldon as a backup 3 and (fucking hopefully) Forbes as a backup 2 rounds up the guard rotation, as they trade away DeRozan and Patty for assets while they can and banish Marco to oblivion. It's a lot of hoping to get there but these pieces can form a great team in the not distant future. Let's hope PATFO open their eyes as the Spurs slip further away from playoff contention...

[ZeusWillJudge]

Dejounte is a very interesting prospect because I could see him going either way. The most important aspect to develop is his shot, which will fundamentally aid him whether we play him as a 1 or 2 - but whether he continues to try and develop PG-like skills or furthers his offensive scoring arsenal will decide his future role. I really wish he wasn't being coached by Pop, who puts players in the box-like roles he sees fit, and would be coached by someone who told him to go out there and do whatever comes to him. Anyhow, as long as we don't have Pop for much longer, he should still be able to accommodate his game under a different coach and being taught guard skills has proven useful to a lot of players (Anthony Davis off the top of my head) at expanding their game beyond purely their given roles.

In an ideal situation, the Spurs develop Weatherspoon, who's been playing quite nicely in Austin, as the future backup PG, and commit to a White-Murray-Walker trio as 1, 2, 3 respectively. Keldon as a backup 3 and (fucking hopefully) Forbes as a backup 2 rounds up the guard rotation, as they trade away DeRozan and Patty for assets while they can and banish Marco to oblivion. It's a lot of hoping to get there but these pieces can form a great team in the not distant future. Let's hope PATFO open their eyes as the Spurs slip further away from playoff contention...


I don't disagree with any of that. I hope you're right about Murray. I think he would have been a better fit, quicker, had they taken the other route with him. But I guess there's no reason not to be optimistic that he could still be repurposed.

You can see all of my offseason posts about Spoon. I said even back then that I think he could be a Forbes replacement sooner rather than later, but with better PG skills than Forbes ever had. Frankly, I think he could be the best (maybe only) PG the team has had for several years. But a good enough shooter to replace Forbes as a 2, with much better defense.

I would love to see this team get a pick no worse than 6 next year. But if they are still serious about making the playoffs, I think there's a roadmap that would get them there. All the stuff you said is pretty much there. Pop just doesn't seem to believe in roadmaps. Or stats. Or defense.

[Sugus]

I don't disagree with any of that. I hope you're right about Murray. I think he would have been a better fit, quicker, had they taken the other route with him. But I guess there's no reason not to be optimistic that he could still be repurposed.

You can see all of my offseason posts about Spoon. I said even back then that I think he could be a Forbes replacement sooner rather than later, but with better PG skills than Forbes ever had. Frankly, I think he could be the best (maybe only) PG the team has had for several years. But a good enough shooter to replace Forbes as a 2, with much better defense.

I would love to see this team get a pick no worse than 6 next year. But if they are still serious about making the playoffs, I think there's a roadmap that would get them there. All the stuff you said is pretty much there. Pop just doesn't seem to believe in roadmaps. Or stats. Or defense.

Yeah, Spoon is a good floor general, from the times I've caught Austin playing he's always looked in control of the flow. With White inexplicably taking a step backwards this season, and DJ not being able to set plays for the team consistently, we're relying too much on DeMar's playmaking, which pisses me off since it's exactly the kind of thing Pop would look like and think "yeah, this guy DeRozan is the core of the team, we need to sign him long-term". There's a lot of games left, but if neither young player steps it up, I could see the Spurs falling into the worst case scenario of talking themselves into a DD extension, surely for max or near-max "discount" money.

I'm on the hype train for Spoon. Also on it for Luka, in a few years anyway, and obviously Keldon. It's incredible that, as much as Pop doesn't believe in roadmaps, he will still stick to his old ways of not playing rookies even when the main squad is shitting the bed daily... Infuriating. And you just know that it's the kind of old man shtick that he doesn't even question anymore, he just does it. Like not playing DeMarre - I'm still hoping an interviewer asks him about it so he has to make up an actual reason on the fly and then plays him 15m the very next game.

Overall, the Spurs' most pressing need is a new coach. A youth development coach, one that isn't afraid of making mistakes and getting rookies on the field.

[Gagnrath]

IF the Spurs roster is used right, the biggest difference between the Spurs and a team like Milwaukee is Giannis. Overuse Forbes and Beli, and this team isn't even in the same zip code as the Bucks.

The Spurs don't have to be as bad as they are. They still wouldn't be a top-tier team, but if Pop wasn't suffering dementia, they wouldn't have to dream about just making the playoffs. Ditch Forbes and Beli, bring up Keldon and sign the best G-League PG available as a backup, and they would at least get that playoff appearance record that so many people seem to be worried about.

I am not even on a ditch Forbes train. He's basically Patty Mills 2.0 without the accent. He's a 2 guard with just enough ball handling to play backup pg and an occasional spot game if your starter is gimpy. He's not a starting level pg. He is fine as a backup combo guard for some extra shooting / rest minutes.

There's actually a lot of good in a guy who can backup both guard spots is a good teammate and is hard working to improve though limited physically.

The guy that I don't quite get is White.... Last year he looked good and to have a budding offensive game while playing elite D for a combo guard. This year he is playing very tentative most games almost afraid to grew up and some games looks as though he isn't sure of his Mobility or athleticism he seemed fine in the playoffs last year bye started with this during the Team USA stuff. I'm not sure if it's physical or mental or some combination of both buy something with white is less than 100% And has been all season. The very weird part to me is that the only thing we really heard is plantar fasciitis, which is definitely treatable and while a lingering pain doesn't for really hamper you athletically it just makes movements painful

[Sugus]

I am not even on a ditch Forbes train. He's basically Patty Mills 2.0 without the accent. He's a 2 guard with just enough ball handling to play backup pg and an occasional spot game if your starter is gimpy. He's not a starting level pg. He is fine as a backup combo guard for some extra shooting / rest minutes.

There's actually a lot of good in a guy who can backup both guard spots is a good teammate and is hard working to improve though limited physically.

The guy that I don't quite get is White.... Last year he looked good and to have a budding offensive game while playing elite D for a combo guard. This year he is playing very tentative most games almost afraid to grew up and some games looks as though he isn't sure of his Mobility or athleticism he seemed fine in the playoffs last year bye started with this during the Team USA stuff. I'm not sure if it's physical or mental or some combination of both buy something with white is less than 100% And has been all season. The very weird part to me is that the only thing we really heard is plantar fasciitis, which is definitely treatable and while a lingering pain doesn't for really hamper you athletically it just makes movements painful

White has already had multiple flare-ups of fasciitis, and also sustained a gluteous injury earlier in the season, which had him warming up on a stationary chair while he was off the floor. He's evidently not playing with his usual confidence and speed, and I think these lingering injuries are a big part of that, along with a new offensive role and having to adapt to DJ in the lineups. If we weren't so close to losing out on the PO I'd love for Pop to sit him 5-6 games so he can rest and heal up. We'll see how he plays after the All-Star break. As for Forbes, agree with you there; he's a backup/third string SG being asked to punch way above his weight.