Why does Marcus Bryant care about

[Oh, Gee!!]

about the players the Spurs don't sign?

[coopdogg3]

Because MB has a rational care about the future of the team. If I may be so bold as to speak for him. He wants the Spurs to be a contender for the next decade.

Unfortunately MB fashions his language with, IMHO, an irrationale hatred for Holt. He feels that every good decision is made by Pop and RC DESPITE Holt, and that every slightly questionable decision must be the result of the evil owner Holt interfering with basketball operations. I would honestly find a lot more to agree with MB if his completely baseless hatred of Holt was tempered a bit, and if he had the maturity to realize that those who happen to support the Spurs during some questionable moves (such as not re-signing Brown) don't necessarily "like Holt's nuts". Or some other equitable comment.

coopdogg3

[ChumpDumper]

He's a dog with a bone.

90% of his posts this season will be about how cheap the ownership group of this team is.

9% will be about how Rasho sucks.

The other 1% will be devoted to TheWriter.

[T Park]

lol.

Damn, Chump has it nailed perfectly.

[FromWayDowntown]

Marcus is convinced that Holt doesn't always do what's in the best interests of the basketball team, unless that best interest of the basketball team happens to coincide with the best interests of the bottom line. I think there's a valid point, in that the Spurs' refusal to go over the luxury tax threshold has occasionally meant that they missed on guys (or gave up on guys) who would be helpful not just now but into the future.

[T Park]

Because MB has a rational care about the future of the team. If I may be so bold as to speak for him. He wants the Spurs to be a contender for the next decade.

Unfortunately MB fashions his language with, IMHO, an irrationale hatred for Holt. He feels that every good decision is made by Pop and RC DESPITE Holt, and that every slightly questionable decision must be the result of the evil owner Holt interfering with basketball operations. I would honestly find a lot more to agree with MB if his completely baseless hatred of Holt was tempered a bit, and if he had the maturity to realize that those who happen to support the Spurs during some questionable moves (such as not re-signing Brown) don't necessarily "like Holt's nuts". Or some other equitable comment

That is a fantastic post.

I agree, he wants the team to do well. Hell, we ALL do.

But to the extremes hes going, and to the absurdity hes taking the conversations is staggering.

Its a shame, even Timvp is involved now.

[CosmicCowboy]

He's gotta have something to get worked up about since GhostWriter doesn't post much anymore.

[Marcus Bryant]

The reason is because MB remembers the bad old days when Negele Knight seemed like a good pickup. When baseline bum, timvp and him would've given their left nuts for a Lamond Murray. Back when the Spurs had no young talent and were capped out. That was year after year after year. Just because times are good, that doesn't mean it can't or won't change.

[Solid D]

1) It's good controversial talk when the Forum gets boring, and
2) if this were MagicTalk or HawkTalk, where such criticism would be considered ho-hum normal and much less controversial, it's not good talk.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Maybe there's some parallel universe where the Spurs' roster consists only of players that the Spurs passed on in this universe. Somehow, MB has a window into the "other-world" Spurs games, and he likes what he sees.

[wildbill2u]

Lots of guys get cut or waived. Most GMs see those players and see marginal talents that can't help their team.

MB looks at all these castoffs and sees an owner too cheap to look for glitter among the dross.

Then there are the players who can play in the league at some level, but for some reason don't fit the current Spurs roster (Devin Brown?) because of a jam at the position or being a 'tweener' when we don't need any more of that. MB sees another Holt conspiracy instead of basketball decisions by RC and Pop.

[2centsworth]

The reason is because MB remembers the bad old days when Negele Knight seemed like a good pickup. When baseline bum, timvp and him would've given their left nuts for a Lamond Murray. Back when the Spurs had no young talent and were capped out. That was year after year after year. Just because times are good, that doesn't mean it can't or won't change.
aren't you describing the pre-holt days?

[Marcus Bryant]

aren't you describing the pre-holt days?

No.

[2centsworth]

No.
hell yes they are. first couple of years it takes new ownership time to get their people like Pop and RC. The problems in which you describe definitely pre-date holt.

[Rogbok]

I thihnk MB and others just want to pick on one side of that double edged sword. As much as they may not want to admit, it is also the responsibility of Pop and RC to run the franchise as not just a basketball team trying to win, but a business trying to make money. It may have been Holt's decission or interference, but it also may have been Pop's and RC's decission even if reluctantely so because of the basketball side.

Unless you are actually there for the decission and have full knowledge, you cannot place the blame completely at one or the other, though it is much easier to place the blame at the very top.

[Marcus Bryant]

hell yes they are. first couple of years it takes new ownership time to get their people like Pop and RC. The problems in which you describe definitely pre-date holt.


Holt was the owner when they were trying to land Murray and Pop was GM starting in '94.

Those problems were in full effect throughout the mid to late 90s when Holt was in the ownership group.

[GoSpurs21]

Because MB has a rational care about the future of the team. If I may be so bold as to speak for him. He wants the Spurs to be a contender for the next decade.

Unfortunately MB fashions his language with, IMHO, an irrationale hatred for Holt. He feels that every good decision is made by Pop and RC DESPITE Holt, and that every slightly questionable decision must be the result of the evil owner Holt interfering with basketball operations. I would honestly find a lot more to agree with MB if his completely baseless hatred of Holt was tempered a bit, and if he had the maturity to realize that those who happen to support the Spurs during some questionable moves (such as not re-signing Brown) don't necessarily "like Holt's nuts". Or some other equitable comment.

coopdogg3finally someone with the maturity to point out the immaturity of MB, but he left out TiMVP is also has the same hatred for ownership.

[2centsworth]

Holt was the owner when they were trying to land Murray and Pop was GM starting in '94.

Those problems were in full effect throughout the mid to late 90s when Holt was in the ownership group.they were just getting started, and 5 short years later they win the championship. Negele Knight goes back to the 80s.

[Marcus Bryant]

they were just getting started, and 5 short years later they win the championship. Negele Knight goes back to the 80s.


Nope. 90s.

[2centsworth]

Nope. 90s.
89-90 no later than 91.

[Marcus Bryant]

I thihnk MB and others just want to pick on one side of that double edged sword. As much as they may not want to admit, it is also the responsibility of Pop and RC to run the franchise as not just a basketball team trying to win, but a business trying to make money. It may have been Holt's decission or interference, but it also may have been Pop's and RC's decission even if reluctantely so because of the basketball side.

Unless you are actually there for the decission and have full knowledge, you cannot place the blame completely at one or the other, though it is much easier to place the blame at the very top.


Pop, RC and Presti are working within the budgetary limits imposed by Holt. There is also the impetus to get under the luxury tax threshold.

[Marcus Bryant]

89-90 no later than 91.


Nope. After that.

[Solid D]

Holt was the owner when they were trying to land Murray and Pop was GM starting in '94.

Those problems were in full effect throughout the mid to late 90s when Holt was in the ownership group.

Meanwhile Murray and the Larry O'Brian Trophy have both gone in a different direction.

[Marcus Bryant]

Knight was a member of the Spurs in 1993-94. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/knighne01.html)

[2centsworth]

he was a rookie in 90.

[Marcus Bryant]

Meanwhile Murray and the Larry O'Brian Trophy have both gone in a different direction.


Took a little while and it also took taking a young man off IR and putting him in the starting lineup...

[T Park]

What young man in 99?

[Marcus Bryant]

2002-03, T Park.

[SpursWoman]

89-90 no later than 91.


He was with SAS in 1994....drafted in 1991 by the Suns and was there for 3+ seasons.


:tu @ Google.


1991 23 PHO
1992 24 PHO
1993 25 PHO
1994 26 PHO
SAS
1995 27 POR
DET
1999 31 TOR

[2centsworth]

He was with SAS in 1994....drafted in 1991 by the Suns and was there for 4 seasons.


:tu @ Google.
drafted in 90-91 and with the spurs in 93-94 per NBA.com


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/negele_knight/bio.html

[2centsworth]

What's funny is from what I've read Holt became the owner in June of '99
Holt, along with his wife Julianna Hawn Holt, bought into the Spurs ownership group in 1996, and Holt became chairman of the board that same year.

So Negele Knight more than pre-dated holt. Plus, it was only 3 years after holt the spurs won the title! Maybe they should have won his first year? Or maybe the spurs stockpiling YOUNG International talent isn't enough?

[Ghost Writer]

F' y'all.

MarcusBryant has killed more Spurs knowledge drinking cognac and smoking hydro than most of you will ever come to realize.

If we do not study the past, examine missed opportunites and learn from our mistakes, we will never be able to achieve perfection in the present.

Marcus is all about kaizen... continuous improvement.

[Marcus Bryant]

When did Pop become GM?

Holt was certainly in the ownership group when the Spurs were after Murray.

Anyways, my point didn't need Holt to be owner. It was about how things were when the Spurs were capped out and had no young talent to develop. That existed pre and post Holt. You can replace Knight with Chucky Brown if you like.

[2centsworth]

When did Pop become GM?

Holt was certainly in the ownership group when the Spurs were after Murray.

Anyways, my point didn't need Holt to be owner. It was about how things were when the Spurs were capped out and had no young talent to develop. That existed pre and post Holt. You can replace Knight with Chucky Brown if you like.The talent shifted overseas and the Spurs were certainly one of the first ones there. Without Pop and RC's foresight we're not loaded with Top of the line international talent, under contract for many years too.


Nothing wrong with an owner wanting to maintain financial flexibility, you seem to advocate the Dallas Mavaricks, New York Knick, Portalnd Trailblazer style of ownership/management.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Who cares? The spurs have three rings and more to come in the near future without the help of ford, knight, and all the other generic scrubs MB loves.

[Marcus Bryant]

Nothing wrong with an owner wanting to maintain financial flexibility, you seem to advocate the Dallas Mavaricks, New York Knick, Portalnd Trailblazer style of ownership/management.

I'm talking about signing players to minimum contracts, not $40 mil+ ones.

[Marcus Bryant]

And '96 did seem a little late for when Holt joined the ownership group:


That value was one of the primary factors in his decision in 1993 to invest in the Spurs; a desire to keep the team in San Antonio and operating successfully. He and his wife Julianna Hawn Holt are now the franchise’s principal owners.

source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Holt)

I think he became the lead partner in '96.

[2centsworth]

I'm talking about signing players to minimum contracts, not $40 mil+ ones.
those players need playing time to develop. No one develops sitting on the bench. Hence, the beauty of drafting International players. You maintain their rights, don't have to pay them, and they develop in very competitive leagues. Looks like a genius strategy to me.

[Marcus Bryant]

those players need playing time to develop. No one develops sitting on the bench. Hence, the beauty of drafting International players. You maintain their rights, don't have to pay them, and they develop in very competitive leagues. Looks like a genius strategy to me.


The thing is, the NBA changed the IR system. Now a team can assign players on IR to NDBL teams to play. And besides, it's not like that stopped the Spurs from bringing in young players to sit on IR in prior seasons.

[2centsworth]

The thing is, the NBA changed the IR system. Now a team can assign players on IR to NDBL teams to play. And besides, it's not like that stopped the Spurs from bringing in young players to sit on IR in prior seasons.those guys were practice players with no real hope of ever making a difference for the spurs. NDBL is one way of developing a farm system, but the spurs obvious focus is overseas. Hence, the change from World Champion Banners to NBA champion Banners.

[Kori Ellis]

those players need playing time to develop. No one develops sitting on the bench. Hence, the beauty of drafting International players. You maintain their rights, don't have to pay them, and they develop in very competitive leagues. Looks like a genius strategy to me.

I agree with that. But the international players the Spurs have developing, don't look like NBA prospects except Mahinmi. Scola's contract will likely stop him from ever being in the NBA. Karalouv doesn't look he'll ever be an NBA player. Javtokas probably would have been here by now if they had plans for him. I'm not sure about Sanikidze but he's out injured for the year.

I would like the DLeague to be developed into a league where an NBA team can sign a player to a contract less than the NBA salary and have that player not count agains the 15 man roster. Then they could send the player down to their DLeague team and develop him there. Right now it sucks because the NBA team has to pay full NBA salary and the players count against their roster limit. If they want a true development league, they need to alter the rules.

[Solid D]

Remember when the Spurs tried to sign Larry Stewart...Michael Smith....Tyrone Nesby? Offer sheets that went south. In retrospect, (yawn)......

[Marcus Bryant]

those guys were practice players with no real hope of ever making a difference for the spurs. NDBL is one way of developing a farm system, but the spurs obvious focus is overseas.

Why not use the Spurs' talent evaluation strength here at home? They've done that before with Rose, Jack, DBrown, etc...

[2centsworth]

I agree with that. But the international players the Spurs have developing, don't look like NBA prospects except Mahinmi. Scola's contract will likely stop him from ever being in the NBA. Karalouv doesn't look he'll ever be an NBA player. Javtokas probably would have been here by now if they had plans for him. I'm not sure about Sanikidze but he's out injured for the year.

I would like the DLeague to be developed into a league where an NBA team can sign a player to a contract less than the NBA salary and have that player not count agains the 15 man roster. Then they could send the player down to their DLeague team and develop him there. Right now it sucks because the NBA team has to pay full NBA salary and the players count against their roster limit. If they want a true development league, they need to alter the rules.
NBDL is in the developmental stages. As far as the spurs international farm system, anything can happen. It was only 2 years ago no one ever thought Javtokas would ever play again. Scola is still a possiblility if not trade bait, Mahinmi seems to have huge upside, Karalov has his moments but who knows, Sanikidze has looked very good from what I've read.

[2centsworth]

Why not use the Spurs' talent evaluation strength here at home? They've done that before with Rose, Jack, DBrown, etc...
you can throw in Haslem too. Rose was rewarded for his hard work with a contract no one in their right mind would ever give him again, Jack had some character issues, DBrown who I like a lot but after watching Finley I can see why DBrown was let go, especially since Finley is signed for 3 years.

All that being said the upside of the international talent is higher than the group american group. I say spend whatever resources the spurs have to continue to scout overseas talent, atleast until that strategy fails.

Shoot we can even throw in Beno into the mix of interantional young talent.

[Marcus Bryant]

There's nothing about the international efforts that really precludes them from evaluating and selecting domestic talent. They already do that. Why not utilize that?

[tekdragon]

Does this mean Ghost Writer has Marcus' nuts in his mouth?

[Marcus Bryant]

Respect your elders.

[2centsworth]

Why not use the Spurs' talent evaluation strength here at home? They've done that before with Rose, Jack, DBrown, etc...
because they're are scoring bigger overseas with Manu, Tony, Scola, Oberto, Beno, Mahinmi, Javtokas, etc... All of this leads me to think that our scouting Dept needs to be the highest paid.

[T Park]

If there was someone over HERE worth a shit, Im sure they would.

[Marcus Bryant]

because they're are scoring bigger overseas with Manu, Tony, Scola, Oberto, Beno, Mahinmi, Javtokas, etc... All of this leads me to think that our scouting Dept needs to be the highest paid.

There's no guarantees that's going to continue. Also, Parker went through all of the domestic pre-draft camps. I'm not sure how much of the Spurs' efforts with regards to him were that different than what they do when they evaluate domestic talent.

Besides, why limit yourself?

[Marcus Bryant]

If there was someone over HERE worth a shit, Im sure they would.


They've found players over HERE worth a shit.

[2centsworth]

They've found players over HERE worth a shit.yes, but those players had limited upside. With Manu and Tony the sky is the limit. The championship talent domestically seems to be the players who come str8 out of high school. Spurs have no shot at those guys drafting last every year.

i think what you're seeing is that the guys like devin, malik etc.. are role players and now the spurs can get those role player by signing first class veteran talent.

The stars are overseas when drafting last.