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View Full Version : Spurs score an F- in my book



Ginobility
07-21-2003, 01:48 AM
I know the season just ended and we should be enjoying this championship. No one's talking about the Spurs though. They're talking about the Lakers, Nets, Clippers, and Pacers. Why? Because the Spurs have miserably failed in signing any free agents that have signed with these teams, not because they couldn't afford them, but because they're not playing their cards right. I'm sorry, but if you have 90 million dollars to spend on free agents, the last player you should be signing is Rasho Nesterovic. I'm not saying that any particular one of those free agents SHOULD have been signed by the Spurs. But regardless of who it was, the spurs could have gotten some one way better than Rasho. Short-term deals shouldn't be out of the question. For example, the spurs could have matched the pacers offer for jermaine o'neal had they made him a 3 or 4 year offer. How the hell is Tim getting paid less than o'neal over 7 years? Something to think about..... Now I hear about this 3 way trade???? I don't know if I could be a Spurs fan anymore if they trade the most integral part of this team aside from Tim. I'm not saying we should fear the Lakers or Nets for that matter, but I will say that they will be TOUGH match-ups for the Spurs given their incompetence in the front office.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 01:53 AM
eh?

Bounce580
07-21-2003, 01:58 AM
The same front office who discovered your namesake?

First off, Jermaine O'Neal would never have accepted a three or four year deal. Elton Brand was going to be (and subsequently was) matched by the Clippers. Jason Kidd was the only of the three top tier FAs that we had a "shot" at. (Unless you include that Duncan guy, who a lot of people forget we DID sign). But, as Kori points out, Kidd was never really as close as it seemed.

Outside of those three, who's left? Rasho, who was at the top of the Spurs list (whether you agree or not), and we got him. Odom, an all-world talent, although seemingly made of marijuana laden porcelain. Maggette, a very athletic swingman who hasn't really proven to be better than the very athletic swingmen we have. Kandi, who was never really an option. And a few others.

So, who is the player that's WAY better than Rasho that they should've signed?

The Spree trade is only in rumor stage. We know how those end up. Admit it or not, he's a big upgrade over Jax. I'd really hate to lose Rose for him, though. I'd much rather part with Scola, since they're arguably the same player, from what I hear.

baseline bum
07-21-2003, 02:03 AM
It was a pretty disappointing offseason, and one analysts will point to for years warning teams about hoarding capspace, just like they did with Chicago when they had to settle for Brent Barry and Ron Mercer.

There's not much the Spurs can do to proclaim victory in this offseason since they seem uninterested in Odom.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:04 AM
Yeah, if all the Spurs manage to do is keep the current team intact and add a few upgrades to the bench that would be quite satisfactory for this summer.

I could care less about what team gets the most coverage this summer. As long as the Spurs are the last team standing at the end of a season does it really matter?

baseline bum
07-21-2003, 02:10 AM
I don't see this offseason as an upgrade. Radosoft definitely isn't an upgrade over DRob on his last legs, and the Spurs are without a backup point. Horry could be an upgrade over Ferry but Pike will be pretty redundant with Jax already there. Not that Pike wouldn't be useful here, but I don't know that his addition offsets losing Claxton for some Summer Leaguer.

Bounce580
07-21-2003, 02:12 AM
Is Lamar Odom really worth the risk for the money some of you want to throw at him? The guy has averaged 39 games over the past two years. Not to mention someone with the proverbial two strikes against him. The potential for reward is great, but the risk is a little high.

Amazing talent when healthy, but it's just too Grant Hill-ish for me.

KoriEllis
07-21-2003, 02:13 AM
Things might have ended up not exactly as most fans would have hoped, but I'm not sure what the Spurs' front office could have done much differently.

Kidd chose to stay at home and used the Spurs for leverage against the Nets. O'Neal never considered leaving Indy. Brand was given a great offer sheet from the Spurs, but chose to sign Miami's sheet and will now be stuck in Clipperland. The Spurs weren't interested in Olowokandi. The Spurs "ended up" with Rasho because he was Pop's top big man choice -- Pop drove five hours on July 1 to talk to him. The Spurs got him to sign with SA for LESS money than he was getting offered at home -- that in itself is a coup.

Armchair GM's can say whatever they want, but the Spurs played their cards right. It's extremely difficult to pry free agents from their home team. People here are at their hypocritcal finest when they praise Tim Duncan for being loyal to the Spurs in 2000 by not going to Orlando -- but then expect guys like Kidd, O'Neal, Brown etc. to jump ship on their own teams.

Ginobility
07-21-2003, 02:14 AM
Sign Scola to your own dream team Bounceman. Did you make O'neal a 4 year offer on that dream team too? Cite the source that says "Jermaine O'Neal would never have accepted a three or four year deal" and maybe i'll agree with you on that point.

You ask: who is the player that's WAY better than Rasho that they should've signed? It sure has hell shouldn't be Scola. But hey, if he's comparable to Sprewell, you sign him in you're little fantasy basketball leaugue.

"A few other players."

Shows how much you've been paying attention. How about P.J. Brown, Karl Malone, Horry, Zo, Pippen, Richard Hamilton, Juwan Howard, and Gary Payton. I would have rather seen the Spurs make a more concerted effort toward any one of these players over Rasho.

I didn't forget that Tim was re-signed. But then again, there were never any rumors that i can think of that said Tim was leaving.

One more point.....After all the crying and complaining Parker did during and after the whole Kidd visit, he better re-sign with the spurs next year.

baseline bum
07-21-2003, 02:15 AM
Is getting nothing good with our capspace and then having it evaporate next year and trying to win another title a smaller risk than signing Odom? I don't think so. Guys like Pike, Horry, etc. are available every year and a lot easier to secure than a talent like Odom. We've seen what saving cap space has done for us.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:15 AM
With regards to Odom he is one offense away from a serious ban under the league's anti-drug policy (at least a year).

Beyond this, again, what was the alternative for the Spurs? They don't know that Duncan is coming back. They do know that most likely DRob will be retiring. Why hamstring youself in the summer in which you will have to replace DRob?

Ginobility
07-21-2003, 02:21 AM
Kori, I just think the spurs could have made a stronger effort in signing players that would have been far more useful than Rasho. I really don't think they're gonna be able to defend their title with Rasho in the middle, but I could be wrong. Kidd and O'neal were only examples that i used to explain my point earlier, and i wouldn't disagree with you're point that they were bound to stay at home. I do give Tim props for staying in SA back in 2000. But look at all the players that bounced around to other teams already.....the Spurs could have signed at least one of them.

baseline bum
07-21-2003, 02:28 AM
The Spurs should have told Kidd they'd give him the seventh year in a sign and trade. If Jersey really doesn't want to pay it we land the best free agent out there. I would also dare Sterling to match Odom if he matches Magette.

NCaliSpurs
07-21-2003, 02:34 AM
Baseline - I think that the Spurs know some things that we don't.

1) Odom and some other players don't want to play on one of the least hyped teams in the NBA.

and/or

2) The clips will match, so why bother.

and/or

3)Our current team is capable of winning it all again, despite LA's moves.

and/or

4) Odom isn't worth the money. Maybe they did an evaluation and they don't think he will fit, or that he won't make us *that* much better (doubtful).

#3 worries me because they might have an inaccurate perception of the team, having won the championship recently.
In the long run, maybe winning this title cost the Spurs a dynasty?

Bounce580
07-21-2003, 02:37 AM
Sign Scola to your own dream team Bounceman. Did you make O'neal a 4 year offer on that dream team too? Cite the source that says "Jermaine O'Neal would never have accepted a three or four year deal" and maybe i'll agree with you on that point.

You ask: who is the player that's WAY better than Rasho that they should've signed? It sure has hell shouldn't be Scola. But hey, if he's comparable to Sprewell, you sign him in you're little fantasy basketball leaugue.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I'm saying that I've heard Rose and Scola have pretty much the same game (undersized hustle players), so if we were looking to trade Rose to Philly, why not try to send Scola instead to see if they bite. I'm not even saying to keep Scola, as the only thing I know about him is he supposedly has a Rose like game (maybe a little better offensively, worse defensively) and he has a five-o-clock shadow. That's all I've got.

As far as O'Neal, no, I have no sources that say he would reject a three or four year deal. Using logic, however, most young players probably won't take a three year max deal over a seven year max deal. One gives stability, and the other doesn't. What if he gets injured in year three? Do you think he's getting max money again?

But, in fantasy GM land, we could've tried throwing one year deals for 5mil at O'Neal and Kidd, and hopefully snagged them both. Not very realistic though, is it?


P.J. Brown

Greatly overpaid to stay in New Orleans. 10.7 points and 9 rebs, but at about 4-5mil more than Rasho.


Karl Malone

Perhaps, but so many people on these boards say he's not going to contribute much in LA, because he's too old. Yet, in San Antonio he's going to be younger?


Robert Horry

Great bench role player at reduced minutes. Not a better pickup than Rasho.


Zo

Wanted to play with Kidd in the East. You can't make up somebody's mind for them. Not to mention a huge over-paid risk for a guy battling a serious, life-threatening disease.


Pippen

This would be a successful offseason? I would've loved to have the guy, but as our primary FA pickup? Uh, no.


Richard Hamilton

Don't we have somewhat of a log-jam at the 2/3 spot? The Spurs weren't looking to find ANY high-priced perimeter FA. It was Jason Kidd was the first option. Then it was a big man. Kidd didn't pan out, so we went to a big man.

If you have a chance to get Kidd, you get him. I haven't heard that about Rip yet.


Juwan Howard

I won't argue, I would've taken a look at this guy.


Gary Payton

See Karl Malone/Richard Hamilton arguments. Payton's definitely more towards Kidd status than Rip, however.

baseline bum
07-21-2003, 02:38 AM
I'd still take the title over what might have been. Although I'd probably feel different if I was a Sac Kings fan. :wink

I think a seventh year for Kidd would have gotten him here. Jersey just didn't want to pay him for the seventh year. The over-36 Rule was badly misinterpreted by the press. I can't believe the Nets were able to weasel out of the seventh year by citing the over-36 penalties for years 4,5, and 6.

KoriEllis
07-21-2003, 02:46 AM
I just think the spurs could have made a stronger effort in signing players that would have been far more useful than Rasho.

You might think that. I might think that. And every analyst in the country may think that. But POP didn't think that. And I guess maybe that's my point. Pop is very, very high on Rasho. He didn't "settle" on Rasho -- he actively went after him.

I am less than thrilled with what I have seen of Rasho's play. But I'm not Pop, and at this point I guess I just am trusting that he sees something in him that I haven't. He's a NBA Coach/GM -- I'm a girl running a website. He found Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili and has repeatedly built teams with prior-rejected guys who end up gems in the Spurs' system.

The Spurs will probably pick up a couple more guys (Horry and Piatkowski) and get ready to make another run.

I can't bitch about Rasho until I see him fail in the Spurs' system. And I hope that never happens.

Ginobility
07-21-2003, 02:48 AM
Why would it make no sense to sign them to short-term deals?

I don't know anything about Scola, but given that Manu isn't even starting, Scola would be riding the pine until his contract ran out. My argument only included kidd and o'neal as EXAMPLES. I noted many other players that could have been taken over Rasho. I don't really feel like going into detail on each one, as you did, but you obviously saw my point because you even agreed with me on a couple.

If you think the Spurs have done well this off-season, great. I'm not afraid to say that I might be wrong about the F-, but it very much seems like the Spurs could have done much better.

By the way, the Spurs front office did a damn good job discovering my namesake, I hope they find more just like him.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:50 AM
So we are to assume that the Spurs could have done better but they didn't even though they had an obvious incentive to do so? What exactly should they have done differently this summer?

Ginobility
07-21-2003, 02:56 AM
There are so many ways things could have been done differently. There are so many players (as pointed out earlier) that would have been much better catches than Rasho. Not necessarily Kidd and O'neal, but other players as well. Like I said earlier, I could be wrong (about the spurs having a hard time repeating), and I certainly hope I am, but that remains to be seen.

baseline bum
07-21-2003, 02:56 AM
I don't like the trust in Pop argument. I don't buy that Rasho was as high on the Spurs wish list as the SA media now hypes. If he was then why the big offers to PJ Brown and Karl Malone? It sounds more like damage control. I don't see anything in Rasho that makes me believe he'll be a strong bigman in the West, and I refuse to have blind faith in Pop (he drafted Manu and TP, but he also failed miserably in 2000 when Chuckie Brown, Terry Porter, and Samaki Walker was the best he could do with Elliott's medical exception and the MCX).

KoriEllis
07-21-2003, 03:09 AM
Well for what it is worth, I was told about Pop loving and going after Rasho on July 6th -- when Kidd was visiting SA. So I don't think Pop being high on Rasho is all media hype.

This outcome of this offseason was not perfect, but I won't judge it until we see the proof in the pudding.

Whottt
07-21-2003, 03:17 AM
I just don't know what you guys were expecting..

I don't think there is any way Kidd comes here..if he wanted a S&T for max $ he could have done that with any team he wanted to go to..

Me personally I didn't want Kidd and I don't want Spree either for what it is going to cost to get them...they aren't the kind of SuperStar pickup that gets me excited..if Spree were 3 years younger I'd be all over it..but he's not the same player he once was and I'd argue that he is better than Jax at this stage of his career..he shot 40% last year..

We tried Brand..no dice..We tried O'Neal..no dice...

I like getting Horry..you guys are underrating him...yeah he didn't score that much in LA but how much do you want him to score when he has two teamates both trying to win the scoring title every year? The guy hits big shots..championship winning shots...he plays great D as well...what price can you put on that?

Guys that have started at SF or PF on 5 title winning teams and hit big shots for every one of them, are available every year? Who? When? Where?

Piaktowski is a huge upgrade over Steve Smith..you can never have enough shooters on a team with Tim Duncan...


Rasho isn't exactly my idea of a Shaq Stopper either but he is a good center compared to just about any other center in the NBA not named Shaq...

All in all I like our offseason IF we get Horry and Piatkowski..I don't share the opinion that Parker, Manu, Jax, Bowen and Rose are pieces of shit..I look forward to them getting better..I am glad we are keeping them..and I will be happy with Horry and Piak if we get them short term..we keep our options open for next year and we have a better chance at keeping Parker and Manu.

I don't know what trades you guys wanted us to make in lieu of hoarding capspace...It's been revealed in a Ludden article that Webber never even returned the Spurs calls..maybe we could have gotten Payton a few years ago but it's arguable...Maybe we get SAr but who off our title winning team do we have to give up to get him? Do we win a title if we make that trade? With no Malik? or Jax?

The only snafus I see that we made this year was going after Kidd so hard, giving up our #1 pick with so much talent still on the board, and not making a run at Payton...many in the media thought the blind pursuit of Kidd made no sense, and in the long run Kidd did as well...

If we hadn't been stupid about signing Kidd we'd have kept our draft pick and maybe made a run at Payton instead...

If we get Payton LA doesn't...this season takes on a whole different perspective...

**** Kidd...that's what screwed us up if anything did.

Russ
07-21-2003, 03:24 AM
In the long run, maybe winning this title cost the Spurs a dynasty?

The only thing that could cost the Spurs a dynasty was signing Kidd for seven years.

A close second would be signing Odom.

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-21-2003, 03:39 AM
In the long run, maybe winning this title cost the Spurs a dynasty?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The only thing that could cost the Spurs a dynasty was signing Kidd for seven years.


Don't forget taking on Kidd's baggage - Kidney aka Zo, for four years.

AHF

KoriEllis
07-21-2003, 03:41 AM
The only thing that could cost the Spurs a dynasty was signing Kidd for seven years.

Wow, Russ. I didn't know you were so against Kidd. Me too -- here was my view (http://pub237.ezboard.com/ffullsportpressfrm9.showMessage?topicID=110.topic) .

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 03:42 AM
but he also failed miserably in 2000 when Chuckie Brown, Terry Porter, and Samaki Walker was the best he could do with Elliott's medical exception and the MCX).

In 1999 he went after Nesby and we know how that ended. Other than him who was out there? In addition he made a play for Jermaine O'Neal that summer but Portland took care of that by giving JO'Neal $24 mil over the next 4 seasons.

It's easy to say "oh he could've done things differently" but a lot harder in action. It's not like the Spurs don't have staff committed to this working throughout the year. Some of you seem to think that the Spurs just wing it or that somehow we forum jocks have better info and insight than the front office. No one here thought that Parker would blow up like he has. Hell, no one was aware of who the F he was prior to June of 2001.

timvp
07-21-2003, 04:35 AM
1) How do the Spurs have $90M in capspace?

2) Why the hell would O'Neal take 3-4 years for the max when he can get 7 years for the max?

3) Why are the same people who were calling for Pop's head now trying to play the offseason up to be a huge bust? The only bust is because they didn't succeed in pulling a miracle by stealing another team's best player.

4) If the Spurs didn't have the capspace they have, how were they going to replace a starter and upgrade their bench?

RuffnReadyOzStyle
07-21-2003, 04:37 AM
Jax vs Spree - I'll take Jax. Spree is old, over his peak and not a SF anyway, Jax still developing - Manu must start soon anyway, so why logjam the 2?

Rasho - I have faith that he will be a good role player here, a 10/8/2 type, but I worry about his D. He'll have to guard the opponent's best bigman to keep Tim out of foul trouble and I'm yet to see him defend well 1-on-1. He's a good role addition though (although I'd have preferred Kandi, who I hate, for only 4.9mil!).

As for expecting JK/JO/EB to sign with us being hypocritical in the light of Duncan's loyalty, no way. Tim's been here 6 years, is the future of the franchise, and has enormous control over its future direction - he'd be a fool to leave as he'll never find a better situation.

JK has been in Jersey 2 years and lost 2 championships, then he takes less money to stay there without a second star? He could have played with Tim as he said he wanted to (which is rather hypocritical, or just plain dishonest).

Sure, Jermaine owes loyalty to Indy since they gave him his shot, and they do have a good young core - but not a young core that just won the whole thing, and you forget about his angry proclamations after this year's first round exit.

Elton owes the Clippers not one wit of loyalty or anything else, and yet he chose the Heat over us (I know it doesn't matter since the Clips were going to match any offer, but it's the diss that gets me). I'm still stunned. Players, except our own, seem to hate SA. To them I say STFU!

As for the Spurs' grade - D- from me. This summer was about getting Tim a second star, and replacing DRob. We have achieved the secondary objective, but not the primary one, and it will be difficult for us to be as good next year as this year. However, I don't blame management - I think they do a good job... I blame bling-seeking, bright-light hos who, when it comes down to the crunch, have other priorities rated above the "will to win" (even though they spout rhetoric which would suggest that winning is no. 1).

T Park Num 9
07-21-2003, 04:46 AM
I love how amateurs who couldnt even dribble a basketball, love to rip pop

who found manu parker jax rose, and others, win 2 rings, but yet

of course, thats never enough.


Wha wha wha wha.

Truthsayer
07-21-2003, 06:24 AM
Its way to damn early for grades. Horry & Piatkowski are still in negotiations. Others are still available.

It has been proven time and time again that the best FA/trade move you could make is not making one when the price or contract terms aren't right.

As far as I know aside from Juwan Howard and Gary Payton, the Spurs made a strong pitch towards every top tier free agent. We probably bypassed Payton because 1) he started out this summer talking about wanting $8 to 10 million on a long term contract, and 2) we couldn't have an open offer to him and Kidd at the same time because if they both said yes then no money left to sign a center.

There is much moaning and groaning over nothing.

tlongII
07-21-2003, 11:39 AM
The Spurs should have signed Pippen to a 2 year, $11 M deal. They have no chance at the title now.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 11:44 AM
Some of you make me sick.

The same @ssh0les who argued with me for over two years about how the Holt-ing Pattern was going to bring the Spurs a star in the summer of 2003 are the same idiots who are trying to spin this summer failures into something positive.

We cleared cap space for two years for a star, people.

Not Nesterovic.

Not Piatkaowski.

Get a f'n grip.

We should've known better.

Name the last star to willingly come to the Spurs as a free agent.

:cooldevil

bigzak25
07-21-2003, 11:48 AM
if the spurs can get the backup point,
a clutch shooter,
and another bigman to help keep shaq outa the paint...

the Spurs will be very tough for any team to beat.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 11:51 AM
The Spurs cleared cap space for two years to get a star.

They failed in that respect.

Name the last time the Spurs signed a star free agent.

Or traded for a star for that matter.

If not for the dumb luck of the draft, the Spurs would never bring in star talent.


:cooldevil

Rick Von Braun
07-21-2003, 11:54 AM
The Spurs should have signed Pippen to a 2 year, $11 M deal. They have no chance at the title now. I heard the same thing last year... and you know what.. we are the CHAMPIONS pal... give us respect until proven otherwise.

What does it feel to lose your leader to Chicago anyway?

-R

alamo50
07-21-2003, 11:55 AM
"I don't know if I could be a Spurs fan anymore"

GO!

kohai
07-21-2003, 12:12 PM
Kori, I just think the spurs could have made a stronger effort in signing players that would have been far more useful than Rasho.

WTF are they supposed to do? PUT A GUN TH THEIR HEADS? They cleared the caproom, and made their pitch. The players decided not to come. End of story.

Oh, and I got yer F-. Spurs signed THE BEST FUCKING PLAYER ON THE MARKET: Tim Duncan:flipoff

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 12:17 PM
khoaia, our offseason has fallen way below our expectations. Wake up.



:cooldevil

Truthsayer
07-21-2003, 12:19 PM
:pc2
This myth has already been debunked GHOST, but you're still clinging on for dear life.

The Spurs did not clear cap space for the express purpose of getting a "Star". They knew when David Robinson retired they would have to replace him and they knew they would have to replenish the bench and resign Tim Duncan. It was only logical for them to plan in advance for that. As a bonus, they knew that Kidd, O'Neal, and Brand would be free agents this Summer so the ability to make them an offer was a bonus to having clear cap space. Another factor was that Pop knows and history shows that championship teams are built by putting together the right mix of players and then doing as little as possible to disrupt team chemistry. This plan has been no secret and Pop has discussed it many times without mentioning the names of any particular FA's.

Now read the above ten times and get it through your thick skull. :evil

There were some trades over the past two years, but none involving big name players. If there had been an opportunity to improve the team then I'm sure Pop would have done so. He's a very brilliant man and wouldn't let such an opportunity slide. Remember that rumours do not equate to opportunities.

The last two notable FA's to sign with the Spurs were Derrick Anderson and Bruce Bowen. DA split to play with the Jailblazers, and Bruce helped us to win a championship. Without injuries to Dave and Ferry plus death of Tims dad in 2002, we might have had two championships over the past two years instead of just one. Not bad for your so called "Holt-ing Pattern".

All of your negativity over the past two years resulted in nothing. Spurs are NBA champs regardless.

:elephant

MannyIsGod
07-21-2003, 12:35 PM
damn ghost, you sure do bitch alot.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 12:39 PM
Wow. Ghost whining like a little girl because the Spurs took a shot at some franchise players in free agency and didn't land one. Of course he told us the Spurs weren't doing what was necessary to win a championship a couple of years ago.

Yeah.

bigzak25
07-21-2003, 12:46 PM
as mentioned, the stupid plan was going after JKidd, when they could have been pursuing payton. But the FO had to make tim happy. So it's spilt milk now. We gotta deal with it.

If they can get boykins, pike, and some muscle, then this team will have the talent to be better than last year...which is good enough for me. Horry is gravy. Spree is fools gold.

If the FO only lands Rasho and fills the backup point with our sommer league phenom....then yeah, that deserves an F-, cuz the FO job is to give the spurs the best chance to win a title...and Rasho and a summerleaguer does not fit the bill.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 12:49 PM
You guys are too much.

Trying to rewrite history and spin what happened to suit your own comfort level.

The Sours weren't only trying to replace David RObinson this summer. If that were the case, why clear out enough cap space for a max player?

The fact that we won this past season in spite of the Holt-ing Pattern should not be confused with winning because of the [/i]Holt-ing Pattern[/i].

Where's the star you people promised?



Question.

:cooldevil

ducks
07-21-2003, 12:51 PM
maybe gp's legal troubles were big trouble with pop. how mnay would bitch if the spurs signed gp and then had to leave the team to go to court?

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 12:55 PM
No one "promised a star" poor boy. That's your construct. All that was said was that the Spurs woud have the flexibility this summer to pursue a franchise level player through free agency.

You have proven that you will complain about anything with regards to the Spurs. Even if that means just winning a title with the crew that you complained about last year and told us would never win. You are the worst type of fan...the one who just bitches 24/7.

Do us all a favor and stop your crying. Go talk to a shrink if you can't handle the stress of being a Spurs fan.

Truthsayer
07-21-2003, 01:03 PM
You have proven that you will complain about anything with regards to the Spurs. Even if that means just winning a title with the crew that you complained about last year and told us would never win. You are the worst type of fan...the one who just bitches 24/7.

That's the bottom line with Ghost. He wants so deperately to be considered a basketball authority that he bitches when the Spurs don't win HIS way. Winning isn't enough. Ghost wants to be right.

In fairness, everyone likes to be right. But when I'm wrong and the result is a Spurs win, then I'm GLAD to be wrong.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 01:04 PM
:sleep

Cassius, you have zero credibility in my book.

While I told you the Spurs' only chance at a title this seaosn would be to get the youth and athleticism in the regular rotation, you insisted that there was no way Steve Smith would be benched.

You also dreampt up more fnatasy trade scenarios during the Holt-ing Pattern than an of us.

Don't tell me you're not the slightest bit disappointed in this summer's signings.

And if you think I am "b1tching", you have no idea how I really feel. :(




:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 01:05 PM
Seek help.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 01:07 PM
I guess we should rejoice at the Lakers recent moves in comparison to ours.

:cooldevil

KoriEllis
07-21-2003, 01:16 PM
Of course everyone is disappointed that the Spurs didn't land a "star" player. I don't think anyone can say that aren't. But the stars were long-shots at best. I think the main reason that some are extremely disappointed is because we were told that Jason Kidd was a lock for so long.

He was never a lock. Not even close.

Was this off season a total bust? Maybe, but probably not. I am reserving an opinion on that until I see how Rasho pans out.

As far as the "Holting Pattern" goes, people are ridiculous for bitching about it now. Bottom line is that Spurs won a Championship during it. Would they have won it if they weren't in the Holting Pattern? Probably not. Because even the slightest things change the final outcome of things in life.

Be thankful for the Championship. Be disappointed in the lack of a star. And be happy we aren't Laker fans worrying about Kobe going to jail. :)

Spurs management will put the Spurs in the position to make another run at the title.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 01:21 PM
How long will it be until Ghost starts asking why the Spurs "don't have a credible criminal on the team"?

I, for one, can't wait.

ducks
07-21-2003, 01:23 PM
the spurs wanted the cap room to be able to get some one when david retired. I think it was a smart move. they got players that put them in postion to win every year. and they even won it. how many team did that ?

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 01:27 PM
Kori, usually I agree with what you say, but acting like the Holt-ing Pattern resulted in giving us a title is like saying because you purposely starved yourself, I was able to fit into that tight dress.

The intent of the Holt-ing Pattern was to bring in a star this summer — not to win a title last year.

If we made trades or free agent signings for star power along the way, we could've won more than one title and have a better team this season.

It cracks me up how everyone admits now that signing astar would be a long shot.

If we all knew this, how come so many of you supported the Holt-ing Pattern?




Question.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 01:35 PM
The intent of the Spurs rebuilding plan was to give Tim Duncan a reason to stay in San Antonio. Do you not remember the Spurs stated desire to "get younger" in 2001?

Would the Spurs have been happy had they landed a star this summer? Sure. That doesn't mean that was the ultimate reason for their rebuilding plans.

Now we see that the Spurs rebuilding plans resulted in a championship with a young core group of players and that the Spurs will be keeping that group pretty much intact in addition to adding a replacement for DRob and with the possibility of bolstering the bench here shortly.

And yet you complain.

You know what? Go **** yourself. You make everyone miserable anytime they read this damn forum thanks to all your whiney ass babble about God knows what. Go be miserable about something else. If you can't handle the 'stress' of being a Spurs fan that's not my fucking problem.

KoriEllis
07-21-2003, 01:37 PM
The intent of the Holt-ing Pattern was to bring in a star this summer — not to win a title last year.

I agree Ghost, that's why I said we are disappointed in not getting a star.

I am not saying that BECAUSE OF the Holting Pattern we won the Championship; I'm saying that DURING the Holting Pattern we won the Championship. That's a fact.

You cannot guarantee me if the Spurs never went into the Holting Pattern and instead traded and picked up FA's along the way to 2003 that they would have won a title.

Yes, prying stars away from their own teams was always a long shot. But trying for the long shot was better than not trying at all in my opinion.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 01:39 PM
You're full of sh1t, Cassius.

The Holt-ing Pattern was a cap-clearing plan to bring in a star. Period.

Clearing cap space for summer 2003 had nothing to do with winning last season.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 01:39 PM
Ghost didn't give a damn about developing young talent he wanted to see it all shipped out as part of his Blow It All Now strategy. Now all he's left with is that the Spurs didn't mean to win a championship with the young players.

:lol

Good, you worry about that. I'll celebrate the Spurs second championship.

Ed Helicopter Jones
07-21-2003, 01:43 PM
acting like the Holt-ing Pattern resulted in giving us a title is like saying because you purposely starved yourself, I was able to fit into that tight dress. -GW



Interesting analogy.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 01:47 PM
The reason the Spurs pursued cap flexibility this summer was to help them adjust to life without David Robinson. If they got a star, great. If not, then if they got a replacement for him then that works too.

I don't understand how the **** this is so damn awful. Yet all we see from you is bitching about the Spurs winning a title and making runs at franchise level free agents. And this is on top of developing a young core of players and having the two-time MVP (age 27) agree to a seven year contract. You act as though the Spurs were doing nothing. Well apparently that was not the case.

And now you continue to whine. Shut up man. I'm fucking sick of it and plenty of others here have said the same thing about you. Stop it. We are not here to babysit you.

adidas11
07-21-2003, 01:57 PM
Does Cassius=SpursFan=MarcusBryant=Arhchie=Dognasty????

QUESTION.

scott
07-21-2003, 01:59 PM
The intent of the Holt-ing Pattern was to bring in a star this summer — not to win a title last year.

The intent of the "Holting Pattern," like any other move the Spurs have ever made or will make, was to win championships. Getting a star this summer may have been viewed as a possible means to achieving that end- but getting a star was not the end.

The fact is we won our second championship, and are still prime contenders to win more. As long as we remain real players in the title race, our front office is successful. Would have adding a second star make things easier? Probably. Does not getting one make us failures? Only if you are a bitch assed complainer.

MannyIsGod
07-21-2003, 02:02 PM
Why is addidas the only one on ghosts side? Man,you know you're a fucked up spurs fan when the Laker fan has to defend you.

CosmicCowboyXXX
07-21-2003, 02:03 PM
Does Cassius=SpursFan=MarcusBryant=Arhchie=Dognasty????

yep...

answer

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:03 PM
Does adidas = Ghost's boy toy?

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:04 PM
:sleep

Guys, please don't act like we won the title last year because we cleared cap space.

And don't act all high and mighty like you weren't counting on a star signing this summer.


:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-21-2003, 02:06 PM
Then why did we win the title ghost?

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:07 PM
:lol

The bitch just doesn't stop.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:10 PM
We won the title because Popovich finally intergrated some youth and athleticism into the rotation instead of putting too much faith into the old guys like Ferry and Smitty, Manny.


:cooldevil


P.S.

Cassius, bring some subtance or STFU. If we did things your way, the Spurs would have started Steve Smith all last season and we'd have 4 Cavs bench players on our team right now you double-talking, revisionist S.O.B. Are you and Manny an item?

MannyIsGod
07-21-2003, 02:13 PM
wait wait, youth and athleticism, you mean the kind you wanted to trade away over hte past 2 years?

do me a fucking favor, stfu bedcause your arguements are idiotic.

You tell other people like truth they won't be missed, but the truth is there is a reason the only person supporting your idiotic view is a laker fan, it is YOU who woudln't be missed.

But don't let your forum ego in on that secret.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:16 PM
Ghost, stop posting your whiney bitch rants or leave. I'm not the only one who is sick and fucking tired of seeing you use this forum to deal with your manic depression. Plenty of other regulars here have told me that they are tired of it as well. If you can't be happy now you will never be happy. Stop trying to make other people miserable because of that.

Whottt
07-21-2003, 02:18 PM
Winning a title means that signing a superstar became less of a need.

The actual intent of the holting pattern was to put enough talent around Duncan to win a title and keep him from leaving.

And in that aspect our FO was sucessful, maybe not as a direct result of the holting pattern, but because of efforts being made on other fronts

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:19 PM
We won the title because Popovich finally intergrated some youth and athleticism into the rotation instead of putting too much faith into the old guys like Ferry and Smitty, Manny.

Are you really this dense? On the one hand you complain that the Spurs kept their young talent and then on the other you bitch about Pop's reluctance to play young talent. That makes no sense whatsoever for a critic of the rebuilding process.

scott
07-21-2003, 02:19 PM
I'd miss you, Ghost.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:20 PM
Manny, is it difficult to type with your head in Cassius' lap?

Manny, you have no idea what trades I would've wanted. You're just another in a long line of anonymous posters that I've butchered over the years. I've forgot more than you'll know about the Spurs.

I mentioned Jackson as a free agent acquisition when he was with the Nets. I never had any intention of trading away Manu.

Yes, I would've traded Parker and Rose for Payton. I think an All-Star would do well next to Duncan.



Cassius, why did you invent countless trade scenarios during the Holt-ing Pattern?



Question, coward.



:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:22 PM
Ghost, I looked at different trade scenarios because this and its predecessors are Spurs fan discussion forums. Not Manic Depression Assistance forums.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:25 PM
Trading during the Holt-ing Pattern would've taken us out of the Holt-ing Pattern.

Methinks you weren't on board with the cap clearing plan, either based on your propensity for creating trade scenarios to get out of the Holt-ing Pattern.

:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-21-2003, 02:26 PM
lmao

and the forum ego rears its ugly head again.

GhostIsGod

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:28 PM
:sleep


Manny, I am dying for you to contribute something substantial to this Forum other than piggybacking your d1ckhead mentor, Marcus.


I don't understand why it is forbidden to be critical of the front office.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:32 PM
Methinks you are fucked in the head, Ghost. Sure I discussed trade scenarios in which the Spurs sent out contracts ending this year for talent. I don't exactly understand why I should not have participated in those discussions.

Just give it a rest and go find another way to relieve your stress instead of your fucking ragging over nothing.

scott
07-21-2003, 02:32 PM
I don't think there is anything wrong with criticizing the front office- but what are we criticizing them for right now?

The roster we had last season resulted in a championship and now we have the ability to sign any player we can. I don't see the problem. Sure, we may have been able to trade for other players- but who is to say those players would have resulted in a championship?

I don't think there is anything to complain about in relation to our current situation in general. If we have anything to complain about, its our inability to attract FAs- not the situation to sign anyone we want. Maybe we haven't had an "A" offseason- but we certainly haven't had an F-. Resigning Duncan and Jackson will adding Rasho is not a bad offseason.

KoriEllis
07-21-2003, 02:33 PM
Manny, is it difficult to type with your head in Cassius' lap?

:lol :lol :lol

Not that I am on anyone's side in this debate, but that line was so funny that I almost spit milk on my monitor.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:34 PM
Yes Ghost, but we sleep in separate beds. :king

MannyIsGod
07-21-2003, 02:35 PM
Oh its not, but it just makes you look stupid when coming off a title when we have at least the 2nd best team in the leauge on paper.

As far as marcus goes, I disagree with him on a lot of things, but he at least brings logic to his arguements, can't say the same for your flip floping ass.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:38 PM
:lol

Cassius, contracts ending in 2003 was not one of your considerations, pal.

I'm really not complaining about anything, scott. I just can't stomach Spurs homers trying to spin this summer as a good offseason when it fell way short of most of our expectations. I figured we'd wind up with an Olowokandi. Nesterovic is pretty close. I can't say I am surprised we couldn't get a star. Just disappointed. I have too much pride in myself to mask that bitter feeling with a bunch of biased B.S. and Spurs spin.

I'd get over it a lot sooner if people like Cassius would leave me alone.

I will not change my mind. I want to move on.



:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-21-2003, 02:41 PM
Manny, is it difficult to type with your head in Cassius' lap?

Ghost, no harder than it must be for you with yours so far up your ass.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:42 PM
?

I said the Spurs send out their contracts ending in 2003 to other teams in order to acquire talent.



I'm really not complaining about anything
Now that's a candidate for FSP Understatement of the Year.



I'd get over it a lot sooner if people like Cassius would leave me alone.


:lol Here's a fucking idea...stop using this forum to get you through your personal problems. Now you are shocked that someone actually responds to your lunatic rants when you post them. O poor Ghost.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:43 PM
:sleep

Har-de-har-har, Manny.


Grab a napkin and wipe the spunk off your face, loser.

If you guys want me to stop "complaining", change the f'n topic.

:cooldevil

Admiral
07-21-2003, 02:43 PM
I haven't complained about the front office's effort this summer, nor will I, but it amazes me that people here are spinning this summer as anything but saving cap space for max free agents.

Whatever makes you feel better, I suppose.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:46 PM
I fault the front office for putting all their eggs in one basket, but not for a lack of trying.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:46 PM
Again, Admiral, it was about giving themselves the flexibility to pursue a star and/or DRob replacement once DRob retired. This is not hard to understand nor is it "spinning." Sure the Spurs would have loved to be signing a star free agent (other than Duncan, of course) this summer.

Funny how Duncan decided to re-up with the Spurs after the Spurs made a decision to "get younger" as Duncan wanted them to. Some here seem to take Duncan's re-signing for granted (ie GW and GW Jr). Now all they are left with is "the Spurs didn't get a second star shoot me now."

Admiral your bitching is on par with Ghost's. That is to be commended. It must be hard to do when you aren't an actual bitch like GW.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:50 PM
I fault the front office for putting all their eggs in one basket,

WTF? Notice how the Spurs still have one hell of a team after the great failure that you are whining about all over this forum? God damn that is so awful how foolish they were to do this to us!





but not for a lack of trying.

And in another thread you fault the Spurs for not trying. Get your story straight, chump.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 03:00 PM
All that flexibility ain't worth a d@mn.

I could see if I was all for the Holt-ing Pattern and it failed, but I criticized it all along.

I applaud the front office for trying to land a star this summer. I condemn them for thinking they actually could.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 03:02 PM
:lol

Damn you are really one messed up mofo.

Admiral
07-21-2003, 03:02 PM
Again, Admiral, it was about giving themselves the flexibility to pursue a star and/or DRob replacement once DRob retired. This is not hard to understand nor is it "spinning." Sure the Spurs would have loved to be signing a star free agent (other than Duncan, of course) this summer. -Cassius Clay

Come on,Marcus. Do you really believe for a moment that the Spurs didn't have their sights set on a max free agent this summer?


Funny how Duncan decided to re-up with the Spurs after the Spurs made a decision to "get younger" as Duncan wanted them to. Some here seem to take Duncan's re-signing for granted (ie GW and GW Jr). Now all they are left with is "the Spurs didn't get a second star shoot me now." -Cassius Clay

I have not taken Tim's re-signing for granted. I'm also not surprised that we didn't sign a star this summer, because I was one of few who pointed out that it was risky at best. I have every confidence that we will be fine, superstar or not, but failing to get a superstar was not part of the Spurs' plan.


Admiral your bitching is on par with Ghost's. That is to be commended. It must be hard to do when you aren't an actual bitch like GW. -Cassius Clay

:lol

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 03:05 PM
Again, Admiral, sure they made a run at stars this summer but it's not like they took for granted that they would sign one.

The Spurs gave themselves the flexibility to address DRob's departure and/or add a star. Why exactly should they have been capped out when DRob retired? WHY?

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 03:06 PM
If it meant being capped out with a star or two under contract, that would've been better than this.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 03:24 PM
Right. The Spurs should've been capped out with a 35 year old guard and no youth. DAMMIT WHY HAVE THE SPURS GIVEN US A 8 MAN ROTATION FULL OF YOUNG TALENT INCLUDING A 21 YEAR OLD 'RISING STAR' POINT GUARD? WHY THIS AGONY?

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 03:29 PM
Payton's contract was up this summer. He seems good enough for the Lakers.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 03:31 PM
(This message was left blank)

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 03:32 PM
Payton wanted an extension from the Spurs. Next. And of course you ignore the fact that the Spurs would have shipped out their youth under your great plan. At least now the Spurs are a team on the way up instead of a team trying to squeeze the last bit of play out of a 35 year old guard.

F that.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 03:36 PM
That's an incorrect assumption on your part. Payton wanted an extension from Seattle or he wanted to be traded. I don't recall him getting an extension from Milwaukee, do you?

Payton > Parker + Rose

Next.

Sprewell > Rose

Next.

Mercer + Artest > Smitty

Next.

:cooldevil

bigzak25
07-21-2003, 03:58 PM
would mercer and artest have helped us win a title in 2002?
i dunno. perhaps. surely they would have given more than steve smith...but how they would have fit into the team concept is anybodies guess.

I would never have traded parker & malik for payton.
Luckily, neither did the FO.
I would never trade malik now for spree now...
Hopefully, neither will the FO.

But it's history. In the past. Can everyone who feels they are right or were right just beat your chest and get it out of you effin system.

I'm a homer. I'm loyal to our current group of guys. Unless you can add a SUPERSTAR, you don't break up championship chemistry. If the FO does that for Spree, i'll be shocked and dissappointed.

Unfortunately, the Spurs are at almost the same position they were 3 weeks ago.

NEEDS:
bigman
backup point
shooter

ducks
07-21-2003, 04:35 PM
steve smith wanted an extension from portland and the spurs. he did not get on and he pouted.

and gp did not get the bucks to the finals either

Admiral
07-21-2003, 06:50 PM
It's amazing to me how Cassius can talk about our "rising star 21 year-old" point guard when arguing against Payton, yet frequently pointed out that Parker was benched in the Finals when defending his argument supporting Kidd. Which is it, Cassius? Surely you don't think that Kidd is that much better than Payton.

I definitely agree that we were smart to not make that trade for Payton. I used to think that we should've considered it more, but the way we did it makes a lot more sense.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 06:53 PM
I pointed out that he wasn't a star today while some of you were saying that he was 'better than Kidd now'. Does he have room for improvement? Sure. But we shouldn't worry because individuals such as GW Jr guaranteed his success.

effthelakers
07-21-2003, 07:53 PM
THe thing that bothers me is that the other contenders in the west have upgaded their teams, while we have basically stayed the same. Even though this team won a championship, there wasnt that much diffeence between us and the second best team.

tlongII
07-21-2003, 08:01 PM
Actually the Spurs have DOWNgraded their team. Nesterovic is nowhere near as good as even an "old" David Robinson.

RuffnReadyOzStyle
07-21-2003, 08:48 PM
Um, I've watched people give shit to Ghost for 2 years now, and sometimes he deserves it. But in this case, GHOST IS RIGHT.

For the last two years people have been defending the Holting patern by stating that we will land a star in 2003. I am one of them - I am still astounded that we were ignored by the stars. GW warned that this would happen. He has turned out to be correct, and I think a lot of you owe him an apology - you are the ones trying to re-write history here by saying that we weren't saving money for this off-season with the intention of landing a second star to put next to TD.

C'mon people, for once Ghost is correct and has been on record for a long time about his view on the Holting Pattern, give him the credit he's due.

ducks
07-21-2003, 08:54 PM
tlongII


rasho stats are better then davids last year

and the rest of the team should improve this year

Ginobility
07-22-2003, 03:00 AM
First off, I would like to say that I'm glad I wasn't around for that ghost writer-cassius debate.

Secondly, I would like to say that I love my Spurs and I'm really happy that we won it this year.

I am disappointed that the Spurs didn't pick anyone up who really could make a difference next season (but I could be wrong).

I don't buy the "team loyalty" agruement at all. The ONLY reason Tim stuck around a couple years ago was because Dave took a massive pay-cut and we, the fans, begged him to stay. I don't blame Tim for going where the money is because this is a business. But realistically, it wouldn't have worked out for him in Orlando, or any other big-market team because he's a very humble player and with a small-market team, most guys generally avoid massive hype that they really don't need to deal with (I need not mention any names, but you guys should know who I'm talking about). I think Tim is the best example of loyalty in the NBA (and maybe even Pippen too), even though we had some trouble keeping him a couple years ago. If you compare him to guys like Elton Brand, Jermaine O'neal, Jason Kidd, and Derek Anderson, who are just going (or went) to teams because that's where they found the money. The fans cared less whether these guys stayed on their respective teams, but the character of our city is far different than any other city in the NBA.

Then you have Malone and Payton (a couple of John Salleys looking for a ring) who could have both easily signed with a small-market team like San Antonio for the league minimum and have the same (if not, better) chance to get the ring. Realistically, would Payton have signed on with Seattle for another couple years had he not been traded????? If you think about Malone's situation, there was no way he was ever gonna win a ring in Utah even with Stockton by his side. Payton and Malone would have been far more effective for San Antonio than they will be in LA.

2 points here which tie in heavily with each other:

1.)The Spurs are a small-market team which the greatest players in the league may never come join because there's nothing here. It was a blessing that Dave was here to take that paycut otherwise we might have never seen what we did last month, but because Dave DID take that paycut, we have the greatest player in the league staying in San Antonio for the next 7 years.

2.)Team Loyalty is non-existent. Players are signing with teams either where the money is, or where they THINK they are guaranteed a ring. Places like Orlando, New York/New Jersey, LA, and Indiana have already proven themselves to be lucrative markets for big name players (unlike San Antonio). Team loyalty is hard to come by nowadays, and that even remains to be seen here next year when Tony becomes a free agent, and if he leaves, there's always KG.

It's not a travesty.....yet. Like Kori said, we can't judge Rasho until he succeeds or fails miserably within our system. I thought we could have signed O'neal on for more money over a shorter period of time, but i guess i was wrong about that. There is no way Malik could be traded for some one that he's worth, because he's damn near priceless to this team.

The best move I think the Spurs have made thus far was trading their first round pick for a future first-round pick. As much as we hate the Lakers here, we are all too soon to forget that Kobe (no smart-ass comments, please) was originally drafted by the Hornets....And the Grizzlies traded their first round pick in this year's draft to Detroit for Otis Thorpe (but I think the Spurs would have done a hell of a lot more with that pick than Detroit did). Who knows? That first round pick could be the next big superstar.

Free agency isn't over yet and the trading deadline is a long way off, but until I see who the Spurs get with that future first round pick and/or who they may pick up before the season starts, I still give them an F-.

I don't need anybody's smart ass remarks because I'm not gonna sit here and cuss you out all night long. I'm attempting to debate this issue in a friendly manner and I can take criticism for anything anyone might think I'm wrong on.


Shaq on the 2001-2002 MVP:
"A joke."

T Park Num 9
07-22-2003, 05:04 AM
how would upgrading your bench
and switching man for man the starting center

not a successfull summer.

imprving a championship roster?? Sounds good to me.


All the western conference teams have improved??
REally

LA did.
Minny, maybe well see

Sac did?

Phoenix Did?

Portland did?

Dallas??? WORSE than us DIDNT!

ok so who all improved guys???





Question!!!!!!!!

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 10:59 AM
Shut up, T Park.

The Lakers just added two 20-point scoring Hall of Famers.

Los Angeles has always been our primary threat.

Wake up.


:cooldevil

RuffnReadyOzStyle
07-22-2003, 08:20 PM
How have we upgraded the bench?

Rasho and Dave is actually a net negative for us - no way Rasho plays D like Dave has.

It's been a disappointing off-season and we're back in the middle of the pack again - LA improved, Minne improved, and I can't see that any of the other contenders in the West are any weaker.

The dynasty is on hold...