Article: To Trade or Extend DeRozan?

[cd021]

https://www.spurstalk.com/san-antonio-spurs-demar-derozan-trade-or-not-trade/

The Gist: Trade possible, extension possible, standing pat and riding it out- probable

[tholdren]

Trade lma hes the worst.

[DPG21920]

Appreciate the work you have been putting in. What are your personal thoughts on what they should do?

[Chinook]

Whether you want to trade him or keep him, DeMar signing a reasonable extension would be good for the Spurs. Simply put, the path to getting better isn't just putting the ball in the young guards' hands and having them carry the load. Yeah, you could max DeRozan and really hurt yourself in the long run. But something similar to what he's making for three more years wouldn't be bad at all, they could still create cap for a big name if he stays on the roster or still move him. If he doesn't want to stay, then you have to look at trading him. If he's willing to sign a good deal, you do that. If he doesn't want to leave but wants SA to max him, well, I'd say it could make sense to just wait it out. I don't see anyone willing to go all the way for him this off-season, and once he sees that, he might be willing to come down considerably. If he walks, try to work out a sign-and-trade. I'm not sure the team can expect a bigger haul for DeRozan this season than they'd get in a S&T anyway.

[DPG21920]

Whether you want to trade him or keep him, DeMar signing a reasonable extension would be good for the Spurs. Simply put, the path to getting better isn't just putting the ball in the young guards' hands and having them carry the load. Yeah, you could max DeRozan and really hurt yourself in the long run. But something similar to what he's making for three more years wouldn't be bad at all, they could still create cap for a big name if he stays on the roster or still move him. If he doesn't want to stay, then you have to look at trading him. If he's willing to sign a good deal, you do that. If he doesn't want to leave but wants SA to max him, well, I'd say it could make sense to just wait it out. I don't see anyone willing to go all the way for him this off-season, and once he sees that, he might be willing to come down considerably. If he walks, try to work out a sign-and-trade. I'm not sure the team can expect a bigger haul for DeRozan this season than they'd get in a S&T anyway.

We’ve seen who he is his entire career and for whatever reason he doesn’t seem to impact things too positively. At his age, what type of work would you have to do to build any sort of truly competitive team around him and to what end?

[poopbox]

Dude isn't doing anything but leading the spurs to another 1st round exit...

You sign him how does Lonnie get on the court...or Keldon get on the court...or Luka get on the court...

The future of the San Antonio Spurs shouldn't involve a 30 year old guard who has as many flaws as Derozan...

[Uriel]

Unless the Magic offer Aaron Gordon and a first-round pick, I'd keep him and try to make a playoff push this year. Then trade him next year when he's an expiring contract (he'll likely opt in this summer) to some fringe contender desperate to make a championship push.

[JeffDuncan]

...
Then trade him next year when he's an expiring contract (he'll likely opt in this summer) to some fringe contender desperate to make a championship push.


None of those teams will want DDR, because he doesn't shoot 3s.

As far as trading him this midseason, dream on.

[tbdog]

This place will have a rude awakening if we move on from him. It would take a Walker explosion to make us relevant.

[Chinook]

We’ve seen who he is his entire career and for whatever reason he doesn’t seem to impact things too positively. At his age, what type of work would you have to do to build any sort of truly competitive team around him and to what end?

I think we've seen him make the playoffs six years in a row while a lot of "higher-impact" players like Covington can't seem to ever get there. It's hard to see the Spurs as a contender with DeRozan as a top-two players on the team. But that doesn't mean that the path to contention is any clearer with DeRozan traded.

[sasaint]

Unless the Magic offer Aaron Gordon and a first-round pick, I'd keep him and try to make a playoff push this year. Then trade him next year when he's an expiring contract (he'll likely opt in this summer) to some fringe contender desperate to make a championship push.

Gordon AND a 1st for Dumbmar? You are dreaming. I hope your dreams come true on a very regular basis!

[sasaint]

Trade lma hes the worst.

:tu If he starts shooting .500 from 3 for the rest of his career, I'll regret it then.

[DPG21920]

I think we've seen him make the playoffs six years in a row while a lot of "higher-impact" players like Covington can't seem to ever get there. It's hard to see the Spurs as a contender with DeRozan as a top-two players on the team. But that doesn't mean that the path to contention is any clearer with DeRozan traded.

Well, yeah, DeRozan is better than Covington, but that’s not the point. You aren’t contending with DeRozan, I think we know that and I find it hard to believe even with a max spot you can get someone better than LMA to pair with him.

So knowing that, while he’s a good player, what we see is what we get and it’s not good enough. So why keep it going? Just because he’s the best option now, does not make it a good option.

Rebuilding, over time, has a better shot at getting the team to a higher ceiling.

[cd021]

Appreciate the work you have been putting in. What are your personal thoughts on what they should do?

Thanks.

If not a trade to Orlando for Gordon and their first round pick, I would prefer them to extend him.

Something around 3 years $80 million sounds more than fair.

[slick'81]

Dont want any part of derozan once his current deal and his prime expires

[itzsoweezee]

This place will have a rude awakening if we move on from him. It would take a Walker explosion to make us relevant.

Wait, do you think the Spurs are relevant? They're multiple games under. 500 halfway through the season and battling with a bunch of other lottery teams to get swept by the Lakers in the first round. Expect much more of this is demar is extended. He's a no impact, empty calories type of player.

[itzsoweezee]

I think we've seen him make the playoffs six years in a row while a lot of "higher-impact" players like Covington can't seem to ever get there. It's hard to see the Spurs as a contender with DeRozan as a top-two players on the team. But that doesn't mean that the path to contention is any clearer with DeRozan traded.

There is zero path to contention with DeRozan. None.

[313]

Extending Demar would only work in a situation where the team was built like the Bucks. Star can't shoot(though, Giannis is at least trying), but he's surrounded by shooters top to bottom. Restructuring the roster to fit Demar at his age seems foolhardy, so trading him appears to be the best option going forward.

[tbdog]

Wait, do you think the Spurs are relevant? They're multiple games under. 500 halfway through the season and battling with a bunch of other lottery teams to get swept by the Lakers in the first round. Expect much more of this is demar is extended. He's a no impact, empty calories type of player.

It would look worse without DD.

[cd021]

Dude isn't doing anything but leading the spurs to another 1st round exit...

You sign him how does Lonnie get on the court...or Keldon get on the court...or Luka get on the court...

The future of the San Antonio Spurs shouldn't involve a 30 year old guard who has as many flaws as Derozan...

Lonnie and Keldon can get on the court next season, pretty easily, if they let Bryn and Beli walk in free agency.

Murray, Walker, DDR, PF, Aldridge
Mills, White, Keldon, Gay, Jakob

I think that that's fairly likely, actually.

[cd021]

Unless the Magic offer Aaron Gordon and a first-round pick, I'd keep him and try to make a playoff push this year. Then trade him next year when he's an expiring contract (he'll likely opt in this summer) to some fringe contender desperate to make a championship push.

If Orlando's not interested in making that deal, I would resign him three years, $80 million and then trade try to trade him 6 months later.

That's actually a good price for the DeRozan, team's might be interested in him at the number- knowing that he is locked up for two more seasons after next.

[Russ]

It's hard to picture DeRozan as a piece of some future contending Spurs team -- that's probably the bottom line.

But in the meantime, he's carrying a flawed team with his own flawed (but very high energy) game.

In other words, can't live with him, can't live without him.

The resolution of this situation should speak volumes about the Spurs' thinking and their direction.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

Just let him walk tbh. All of the trade scenarios are trash (unless by some miracle we get a top 10 pick). Taking on more salary and more years for another player doesn't make sense. Just take the L and move on from him

[itzsoweezee]

It would look worse without DD.

Maybe, but I'd prefer that than the Spurs locked in to being DeMar's team for another 3 years. No thanks!

[TD 21]

I think we've seen him make the playoffs six years in a row while a lot of "higher-impact" players like Covington can't seem to ever get there. It's hard to see the Spurs as a contender with DeRozan as a top-two players on the team. But that doesn't mean that the path to contention is any clearer with DeRozan traded.

In the East, with Lowry, a top 15 regular season player and one of the deeper teams in the league, that was always better with him off the floor.

I don't get what people like you are so scared of? This notion that if the young guards can't elevate, they'll be screwed, is foolish because the team sucks as is. If they suck a little more without him (depending on the return, they could easily not), that just means they'll increase the odds of landing an elite talent.

It's time this organization stops being so conservative. When the Jazz lost Hayward, they gave the ball to Mitchell, their rookie 13th pick and look at them now. The Pacers have been without Oladipo for a year and had no other stars at the time. Turns out roughly a half season of Bogdanovic taking on the role, followed by the signing of Brogdon and expanding Sabonis' role, were enough to remain a solid team.



Lonnie and Keldon can get on the court next season, pretty easily, if they let Bryn and Beli walk in free agency.


Murray, Walker, DDR, PF, Aldridge
Mills, White, Keldon, Gay, Jakob

I think that that's fairly likely, actually.

Not enough shooting to be feasible.



If Orlando's not interested in making that deal, I would resign him three years, $80 million and then trade try to trade him 6 months later.

That's actually a good price for the DeRozan, team's might be interested in him at the number- knowing that he is locked up for two more seasons after next.

He could jut opt in and/or extend as part of a trade. They don't have to give it to him first and then turn around and trade him 6 months later (not a great look).

[spurspl]

trade him while he plays pretty well because it wont last long

[widowmaker]

Send derozen back to the raptors for something useful in the future.

[gambit1990]

harden is friends with demar so... demar, rudy, marco, jakob, bryn, 2020 1st round pick, 2020 2nd round pick for WB, pj tucker, and capela.

[spurspl]

harden is friends with demar so... demar, rudy, marco, jakob, bryn, 2020 1st round pick, 2020 2nd round pick for WB, pj tucker, and capela.

crazy but i like it

[Russ]

harden is friends with demar so... demar, rudy, marco, jakob, bryn, 2020 1st round pick, 2020 2nd round pick for WB, pj tucker, and capela.

That's the opposite of "blow it up."

That's like let's make what we need to blow up even bigger.

[Prime BEEF]

harden is friends with demar so... demar, rudy, marco, jakob, bryn, 2020 1st round pick, 2020 2nd round pick for WB, pj tucker, and capela.
lol. This is crazy and yet beautiful at the same time. I would prefer this over doing nothing.

WB/Murray
White/Mills
PJ/Walker
LMA/Lyles
Capela/Metu

Better lineup than we have now

[tbdog]

Maybe, but I'd prefer that than the Spurs locked in to being DeMar's team for another 3 years. No thanks!

In two off seasons time we should have enough for a max player. With LMA probably gone, DD would be welcomed. That is the aim though, not next season, but in two. We would know what Murray/White/Walker/Poeltl would provide or be traded for a better fit, then DD, plus a max.

[TD 21]

In two off seasons time we should have enough for a max player. With LMA probably gone, DD would be welcomed. That is the aim though, not next season, but in two. We would know what Murray/White/Walker/Poeltl would provide or be traded for a better fit, then DD, plus a max.

Forget about superstars altogether. Stars, unless they're from here, consider it home for family reasons or are European, no chance.

Even then, one of the young guards or an upcoming pick would probably have to look like a star in the making just to get in the game.

DeRozan would literally be the least likely type to appeal to stars because he can't space the floor or defend and I'm guessing no prime star wants to play second fiddle to an aging pseudo one.

Considering the unlikelihood, non glamour markets shouldn't be planning their future with max cap space in mind.

They should be building through the draft and building up enough depth to trade for need thereafter.

[Prime BEEF]

In two off seasons time we should have enough for a max player. With LMA probably gone, DD would be welcomed. That is the aim though, not next season, but in two. We would know what Murray/White/Walker/Poeltl would provide or be traded for a better fit, then DD, plus a max.
Absolutely no stars are signing here. Free cap space is a waste for the spurs. Only way to improve is through trades and the draft.

[tbdog]

Absolutely no stars are signing here. Free cap space is a waste for the spurs. Only way to improve is through trades and the draft.

You never know. And also, more of a reason to extend DD.

[JuneJive]

Tough one.

Realistically, he's worth extending only if he continues at his current level ( las couple of weeks ) for the duration of the contract.

I really much doubt that he would.

[Sugus]

His value won't ever be higher... Trade him at the deadline if the Spurs can find any partners at all. If not, trade him in the off-season. No team with DeMar at the helm will ever be successful, no point in delaying the tank and taking minutes/touches from young players.

[Chinook]

In the East, with Lowry, a top 15 regular season player and one of the deeper teams in the league, that was always better with him off the floor.

I don't get what people like you are so scared of? This notion that if the young guards can't elevate, they'll be screwed, is foolish because the team sucks as is. If they suck a little more without him (depending on the return, they could easily not), that just means they'll increase the odds of landing an elite talent.

It's time this organization stops being so conservative. When the Jazz lost Hayward, they gave the ball to Mitchell, their rookie 13th pick and look at them now. The Pacers have been without Oladipo for a year and had no other stars at the time. Turns out roughly a half season of Bogdanovic taking on the role, followed by the signing of Brogdon and expanding Sabonis' role, were enough to remain a solid team.

Eh, I had a long response to this, but it's been hashed out too many times at this point. Cliff Notes: They can get a lot worse and understandably may not want to do that. The Spurs can tank whenever, so there's nothing smart about doing it now and nothing "scared" about wait. Walker and the other young guards need to show more in the context of LMA and DMDR before projecting them. Giving them the keys and hoping it makes them stars is the fast way to become another Wolves or Suns. Trading DeRozan understanding that they're likely to get worse and thus getting mostly future value makes way more sense than trading him for worse players at different positions and hoping guys step up to fill the gap. That'd be a worse version of what the Spurs did with Leonard. If DeRozan, like Leonard, forces PATFO's hands, then maybe they have to do such a trade. But they're more likely to be a better team with DeRozan as the three for the next few years than with a guy with two more inches but way less talent like Gordon.

[tholdren]

Trade lma. Hes soft. Hes terrible at defense. Hes fat.

[dbestpro]

The moment Murray wants to shoot the three more than drive to the hoop is when you can trade DDR.

[tholdren]

The moment Murray wants to shoot the three more than drive to the hoop is when you can trade DDR.

Why? So the only spur that can score consistently in the paint and make plays for others is traded?

[R. DeMurre]

Trade, trade, trade. I don't understand how anyone could advocate for a No 3 & No D small forward in today's NBA. It's a guaranteed recipe that'll make championships impossible. How many seasons and playoffs in a row does DeRozan have to post hugely negative advanced stats before people stop thinking his scoring is a difference maker? In eleven seasons, his teams were better ten times with him OFF the floor, and his ON/OFF +/- per 100 possessions this season is -8.4, the worst of his career. In seven playoff series, his teams have always, 100% of the time, been better with him off the floor, with last year's -25.8 rating being the worst of his career, and one of the absolute worst in the entire playoffs... and keep in mind, that was in a series that went seven games and was even with a minute to go in Game 7.



https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/derozde01.html

[DPG21920]

[/LEFT]

Eh, I had a long response to this, but it's been hashed out too many times at this point. Cliff Notes: They can get a lot worse and understandably may not want to do that. The Spurs can tank whenever, so there's nothing smart about doing it now and nothing "scared" about wait. Walker and the other young guards need to show more in the context of LMA and DMDR before projecting them. Giving them the keys and hoping it makes them stars is the fast way to become another Wolves or Suns. Trading DeRozan understanding that they're likely to get worse and thus getting mostly future value makes way more sense than trading him for worse players at different positions and hoping guys step up to fill the gap. That'd be a worse version of what the Spurs did with Leonard. If DeRozan, like Leonard, forces PATFO's hands, then maybe they have to do such a trade. But they're more likely to be a better team with DeRozan as the three for the next few years than with a guy with two more inches but way less talent like Gordon.

Do you really see a difference in a 35-38 win team and a 20-25 win team? I don’t. I don’t care about being a better team with DeRozan if that means at best a .500 team with no ceiling.

I’d rather be “worse” with lottery picks; both from a more exciting brand of basketball to watch and a better shot at becoming more than a 35–40 win team.

[Frenchfred]

harden is friends with demar so... demar, rudy, marco, jakob, bryn, 2020 1st round pick, 2020 2nd round pick for WB, pj tucker, and capela.

so we are trading for a Ballhog PG who cannot shoot, a 34-year old PF and a center in todays’s NBA while giving up all the future cap space and our picks?

[spurspl]

so we are trading for a Ballhog PG who cannot shoot, a 34-year old PF and a center in todays’s NBA while giving up all the future cap space and our picks?

wb has more assists than any other our guard, capela is a great center for years and we need this kind of players, cap space is
useless for us bc no FA is coming here, 2020 draft is weak despite maybe 2-3 players so picks arent so valuable.

[acoelho1]

This idea that we would be worse without DeRozan is a fallacy. This would force Pop to lean on White & Walker for their wing scoring. It would improve spacing and we would be better defensively. Imagine the defensive trio of Murray, White & Walker starting.

[BacktoBasics]

This idea that we would be worse without DeRozan is a fallacy. This would force Pop to lean on White & Walker for their wing scoring. It would improve spacing and we would be better defensively. Imagine the defensive trio of Murray, White & Walker starting.
I actually agree with this. I’m not sold moving DDR or LaM would really trend us down much further. I don’t think a trade moves the needle much in either direction but it might yield a future asset and I’m all for that over the 8th seed.

[Chinook]

Do you really see a difference in a 35-38 win team and a 20-25 win team? I don’t. I don’t care about being a better team with DeRozan if that means at best a .500 team with no ceiling.

I’d rather be “worse” with lottery picks; both from a more exciting brand of basketball to watch and a better shot at becoming more than a 35–40 win team.

1) That's you, and while you can feel that way it's just your opinion.

2) They're about at that level despite not really trying to win now. It's actually more attainable to become a soild 45-47--win team by selling their future than by hoping their lotto picks pan out. Remember, Minnesota, Sacramento and Phoenix would love to win that much with their young cores.
3) Even if tanking is the right thing to do, trading DeRozan for present value/fliers isn't conducive to that.

[Chinook]

This idea that we would be worse without DeRozan is a fallacy. This would force Pop to lean on White & Walker for their wing scoring. It would improve spacing and we would be better defensively. Imagine the defensive trio of Murray, White & Walker starting.

Nah. DeRozan's penetration provides spacing for the shooters. You can't seriously watch Murray and Walker drive on a set defense and think they can fill in for DeRozan. The only way the offense doesn't fall apart os if LMA has yet another resurgence. And I have no idea why trading DeRozan means Forbes no longer starts. If anything, I think it'd make Pop want Bryn out there even more to carry the offensive load you're assuming would go to White and Walker.

[Kobe'sAchilles]

Nah. DeRozan's penetration provides spacing for the shooters. You can't seriously watch Murray and Walker drive on a set defense and think they can fill in for DeRozan. The only way the offense doesn't fall apart os if LMA has yet another resurgence. And I have no idea why trading DeRozan means Forbes no longer starts. If anything, I think it'd make Pop want Bryn out there even more to carry the offensive load you're assuming would go to White and Walker.

I agree. We need to trade Bryn. Ship him to Philly for a second round pick. We need a roster overhaul on the back end, not necessarily the front end. I'm not a huge DDR fan but he should work well with the youngins since he can consistently get into the paint. It's on Murray and White to up their game and learn to up their 3s (both in volume and fg%).

BUT we need to gt rid of Forbes, Belli, and Carrol. Just by doing that alone we would make the playoffs. In the offseason we should sign Morris again :lol

[BlackAndWhite]

I would extend Derozan on a reasonable deal. If he gets another 3 years on a contract similar to his current one, I would be satisfied.

[DPG21920]

1) That's you, and while you can feel that way it's just your opinion.

2) They're about at that level despite not really trying to win now. It's actually more attainable to become a soild 45-47--win team by selling their future than by hoping their lotto picks pan out. Remember, Minnesota, Sacramento and Phoenix would love to win that much with their young cores.
3) Even if tanking is the right thing to do, trading DeRozan for present value/fliers isn't conducive to that.

Well yeah, thats what I asked you for your opinion first. I gave mine, so you were clear on where I stood, but I asked for yours.

They are trying to win now. It’s why they have two max players in LMA/DeRozan and re-signed Rudy Gay and brought in an aging vet in Carroll. Along with keeping Beli, Mills, etc...They absolutely are trying to win now and that has been the goal. I dont think they can acquire a better talent than LMA to pair with DeRozan either so I don’t see much improvement with DeRozan led Spurs on the horizon. You listed 3 terrible franchises. Unless you think SA is poorly run as a whole (I don’t) then it’s not really comparable. For every PHX, SAC and MIN there are the Bucks, Philly & Memphis of the world too.

Good teams do good things and bad teams do bad things. Winning 45-47 is a noble cause; SA isnt there and I don’t think they can be with this core.

I’ve said trade DeRozan for youth and picks. My other commentary was a guess at SA trying to win now and giving a best guess at what a trade would look like under those circumstances.

[RC_Drunkford]

I think it's a much bigger deal that we have 3 prospects in the G-League who are better than 2 of our current starters

[RC_Drunkford]

I agree. We need to trade Bryn. Ship him to Philly for a second round pick. We need a roster overhaul on the back end, not necessarily the front end. I'm not a huge DDR fan but he should work well with the youngins since he can consistently get into the paint. It's on Murray and White to up their game and learn to up their 3s (both in volume and fg%).

BUT we need to gt rid of Forbes, Belli, and Carrol. Just by doing that alone we would make the playoffs. In the offseason we should sign Morris again :lol

This is pretty much where I stand. This team just needs a 3rd wheel and better role players. Right now they have the 2 go-to-guys and are gambling on one of the young guys developing in the 3rd best player on the team. They just have to get rid of the dead weight and get at least one serviceable starter back. Next year you'll have 3 guys who are all good defenders that can shoot the 3 come in to add to that young core. No team is filled with 20-year olds, you need some veterans around. I don't know how many more young players you'd want on this team.

The main problem is still the head coach. If it was up to me Metu and Walker would start. Weatherspoon and Keldon Johnson would get bench minutes while Forbes, Beli and Lyles are out of the rotation completely.

That would mean Murray, White, Walker, Metu, Johnson, Weatherspoon and Poeltl would all be in the rotation. Add Lyles and Samanic as 3rd stringers. All of them are 25 and under. That are 9 players and the Spurs will have another draft pick this year. That makes it 10 players. Do you want another 5 young ones? You need some vets around those young dudes and DeRozan, Aldridge, Gay, Mills suit that profile quite well.

Forbes, Beli and Carroll on the other hand, they need to go ASAP

[Chinook]

Lyles is better than Metu. It's amazing that we actually have to consider that.

[RC_Drunkford]

Lyles is better than Metu. It's amazing that we actually have to consider that.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. People here like Lyles because he can do a little bit of everything, well Metu can do that too and is miles better defensively and has a lot more athleticism. There's nothing that Trey Lyles is really good at.

You also said that Pau Gasol was better than Poeltl last year and we all know how that turned out

[Mugen]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. People here like Lyles because he can do a little bit of everything, well Metu can do that too and is miles better defensively and has a lot more athleticism. There's nothing that Trey Lyles is really good at.

You also said that Pau Gasol was better than Poeltl last year and we all know how that turned out

:lol

[Chinook]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. People here like Lyles because he can do a little bit of everything, well Metu can do that too and is miles better defensively and has a lot more athleticism. There's nothing that Trey Lyles is really good at.

You also said that Pau Gasol was better than Poeltl last year and we all know how that turned out

He was better and then fell apart physically (pretty much ended his career). Even old, a healthy Pau was better than Jakob's ever been. He was pretty much like what Aldridge is now with less mobility but with better rim-protection It doesn't make sense to brag about him when he still can't get a bigger role even with Gasol in the grave.

I don't hate Metu even though I've hated the way he's played every time I've seen him. But putting up great G-League numbers puts him at the level Forbes was years ago. Lyles would kill it there.

[Chinook]

:lol

In my defense, I never thought Beli was better than him.

[JuneJive]

People here like Lyles because he can do a little bit of everything, well Metu can do that too and is miles better defensively...


Based on what? Your opinion?

[r0drig0lac]

Based on what? Your opinion? this matters? between Metu and Lyles this is where we are now, if it weren't for Pop, Dante would not play in the nba in 2019 and Lyles would not play in the nba in 2020, believing that Lyles is a better player than Metu because he gets minutes in SA is like believing that Forbes is better than any nba player.

[JuneJive]

this matters? between Metu and Lyles this is where we are now, if it weren't for Pop, Dante would not play in the nba in 2019 and Lyles would not play in the nba in 2020, believing that Lyles is a better player than Metu because he gets minutes in SA is like believing that Forbes is better than any nba player.

Would we even mention Forbes as an issue if he were a 3rd stringer?
He has his place in the NBA.
So does Lyles. He is mediocre all around, without a glaring fault.
If used adequately and within his capabilities he wouldn't be a topic of conversation.

Pop is misusing them. Not so much Lyles as he is Forbes and that is the issue here.

[Mugen]

In my defense, I never thought Beli was better than him.

:lol Chinny, my man!

In MY defense, Beli ended up contributing way more than your boy Pau last year...I didn't think your god Pop would be giving heavy mins to a washed Beli 30+ games into the season...definitely my mistake giving the old man way too much credit heading into this season.

[exstatic]

Gordon AND a 1st for Dumbmar? You are dreaming. I hope your dreams come true on a very regular basis!

Gordon is as much a dinosaur as DD. He is truly only a one position player, PF. He doesn't have the ball handling or shooting to play SF. Orlando tried for years to make him fit that, and it failed. He ain't all that and a bag of chips. He is what he is, which is twitchy athletic and mediocre at basketball. After 5 plus years, there isn't a development curve left.

[sasaint]

Gordon is as much a dinosaur as DD. He is truly only a one position player, PF. He doesn't have the ball handling or shooting to play SF. Orlando tried for years to make him fit that, and it failed. He ain't all that and a bag of chips. He is what he is, which is twitchy athletic and mediocre at basketball. After 5 plus years, there isn't a development curve left.

Yeh, I know how Orlando persevered in trying to shoehorn Gordon into the SF role. Frankly he never has impressed me much. On the other hand, though, I don't think Orlando places great value on Dumbmar, from what I have read. They are primarily looking for outside shooting. Under any other regime, we might be able to trade Bryn to Orlando...

[DPG21920]

Would we even mention Forbes as an issue if he were a 3rd stringer?
He has his place in the NBA.
So does Lyles. He is mediocre all around, without a glaring fault.
If used adequately and within his capabilities he wouldn't be a topic of conversation.

Pop is misusing them. Not so much Lyles as he is Forbes and that is the issue here.

I think it’s questionable that Lyles is an nba quality player. There are plenty of guys as good as him.

[TD 21]

Eh, I had a long response to this, but it's been hashed out too many times at this point. Cliff Notes: They can get a lot worse and understandably may not want to do that. The Spurs can tank whenever, so there's nothing smart about doing it now and nothing "scared" about wait. Walker and the other young guards need to show more in the context of LMA and DMDR before projecting them. Giving them the keys and hoping it makes them stars is the fast way to become another Wolves or Suns. Trading DeRozan understanding that they're likely to get worse and thus getting mostly future value makes way more sense than trading him for worse players at different positions and hoping guys step up to fill the gap. That'd be a worse version of what the Spurs did with Leonard. If DeRozan, like Leonard, forces PATFO's hands, then maybe they have to do such a trade. But they're more likely to be a better team with DeRozan as the three for the next few years than with a guy with two more inches but way less talent like Gordon.

It depends on the type of trade because that'll more than likely determine their direction obviously. But in theory, say they traded him for 1-2 young starting caliber veterans who fit better, they'd arguably be better and almost certainly not appreciably worse.

The thing about not tanking when you already suck is, you're just delaying the inevitable and increasing the amount of pain the organization and fan base will have to endure in the long run.

I'm not projecting anything about the young guards and you're still too fixated on Gordon (who'd play the four). They could trade DeRozan for a mid 1st, which when combined with their own and possibly another asset, could get them mid-high lottery (of course, lottery luck with their own 1st could render this moot).




And I have no idea why trading DeRozan means Forbes no longer starts. If anything, I think it'd make Pop want Bryn out there even more to carry the offensive load you're assuming would go to White and Walker.

Forbes only starts because of the need for spacing in the starting lineup. If all or part of a DeRozan return is, Porter Jr. or Ross or someone of that ilk, the equation changes.

No matter the scenario, Forbes isn't going to be granted greater creative license.




It doesn't make sense to brag about him when he still can't get a bigger role even with Gasol in the grave
.


Poeltl only is limited to roughly 12-15 minutes most games because he plays behind Aldridge and even if you want to argue they could theoretically play more together than they do (not enough ball handling, passing or defensive mobility/versatility), they can't on a team with spacing issues along the perimeter.

[acoelho1]

Nah. DeRozan's penetration provides spacing for the shooters. You can't seriously watch Murray and Walker drive on a set defense and think they can fill in for DeRozan. The only way the offense doesn't fall apart os if LMA has yet another resurgence. And I have no idea why trading DeRozan means Forbes no longer starts. If anything, I think it'd make Pop want Bryn out there even more to carry the offensive load you're assuming would go to White and Walker.

So I guess you forgot White was on the team or was that a purposeful omission. He's more than capable of filling in for the play maker role as he showed us last year and especially after you were fawning over him all off-season. As far as Pop is concerned, he plays who he plays no matter what the analytics or eye test shows. I stand by my statement that the trio of Murray, White & Walker will out produce any combination with DDR still in the picture. Also, keep in mind that we will probably get a decent rotation player out of the trade.

[rjv]

Whether you want to trade him or keep him, DeMar signing a reasonable extension would be good for the Spurs. Simply put, the path to getting better isn't just putting the ball in the young guards' hands and having them carry the load. Yeah, you could max DeRozan and really hurt yourself in the long run. But something similar to what he's making for three more years wouldn't be bad at all, they could still create cap for a big name if he stays on the roster or still move him. If he doesn't want to stay, then you have to look at trading him. If he's willing to sign a good deal, you do that. If he doesn't want to leave but wants SA to max him, well, I'd say it could make sense to just wait it out. I don't see anyone willing to go all the way for him this off-season, and once he sees that, he might be willing to come down considerably. If he walks, try to work out a sign-and-trade. I'm not sure the team can expect a bigger haul for DeRozan this season than they'd get in a S&T anyway.

derozan is a legit tier two player, which the spurs have few of. to me, derozan's value is somewhat predicated on the growth of the younger talent surrounding him. while i do not see a perennial all-star in our younger players, i do see quite a few solid rotational players, similar to what boston has managed to assemble. that's just the sort of core that derozan and another solid vet could work with. the key, as you stated, is in what the asking price derozan would ask for. if he stays in his current price range, i think the spurs would have to strongly consider it.

[palangi]

Lyles is better than Metu. It's amazing that we actually have to consider that.

But is he irreplaceable

[Chinook]

But is he irreplaceable

:lol How you been, 'Lange? Feels like it's been a good while since I've run into you here.

[Chinook]

So I guess you forgot White was on the team or was that a purposeful omission. He's more than capable of filling in for the play maker role as he showed us last year and especially after you were fawning over him all off-season. As far as Pop is concerned, he plays who he plays no matter what the analytics or eye test shows. I stand by my statement that the trio of Murray, White & Walker will out produce any combination with DDR still in the picture. Also, keep in mind that we will probably get a decent rotation player out of the trade.

I didn't forget White. Derrick already has his own unit, and while I am as big a believer in his skill-set as you seem to be, I don't think it makes sense to project him doing anything but maintaining his per-36 numbers if he were the only player who could create from the perimeter. I don't want to get into "Yes it is; no it isn't" when it comes to things like White's ceiling. You're welcome to stand by your statement. I will stand by mine that I need to see those guys play much better before I assume they're going to give All-Star production.

[timvp]

In my defense, I never thought Beli was better than him.

https://media.giphy.com/media/XABTVorVODddu/source.gif

[Chinook]

It depends on the type of trade because that'll more than likely determine their direction obviously. But in theory, say they traded him for 1-2 young starting caliber veterans who fit better, they'd arguably be better and almost certainly not appreciably worse.

DeRozan is the piece around which things fit. If Murray can't fit with DeRozan, then it's Murray who has to change his game, because his game isn't good enough to build around. In fact, Murray has changed his game, and the team has been better for it. Can you trade DeMar for forwards and put the ball into Murray's hands more? Yes. Is that actually fitting better? No, because Murray shouldn't be more than the secondary ball-handler until/unless his skills improve. DeRozan and the four and Walker at the three continues to work for the Spurs, so there's no fit issue there. And White and DeRozan fit together just fine last year, and especially given White's role off the bench, there's room for them to co-exist. The problem with the personnel is that they are playing bad defenders like Forbes and Beli minutes when they could be playing Walker more or giving Carroll run. It's not that DeRozan is playing some of the best ball of his career and filling the stat sheet night in, night out.


The thing about not tanking when you already suck is, you're just delaying the inevitable and increasing the amount of pain the organization and fan base will have to endure in the long run.

No. I get that you and some fans are "in pain" over this season. But I'd be just fine with this season if Walker were getting good minutes and we saw more cameos from other young guys. I'm in no rush to root for a bad (meaning actually bad, not mediocre) team. I'd prefer titles, but the last three years have been pretty okay all things considered. I doubt I'd watch them nearly as much if they were a 20-win team.


I'm not projecting anything about the young guards and you're still too fixated on Gordon (who'd play the four). They could trade DeRozan for a mid 1st, which when combined with their own and possibly another asset, could get them mid-high lottery (of course, lottery luck with their own 1st could render this moot).

I'm not fixated on Gordon. He's just the easiest player to bring up. I've made my stance on this pretty clear: Tank or don't. If you can get a good pick and want to blow it up, I'd understand. But all that stuff you've argued about them getting "better fitting" pieces back just doesn't fly with me.


Forbes only starts because of the need for spacing in the starting lineup. If all or part of a DeRozan return is, Porter Jr. or Ross or someone of that ilk, the equation changes.

No matter the scenario, Forbes isn't going to be granted greater creative license.

It's not just spacing with Forbes. I don't disagree that Bryn's shooting is the main reason he's out there. But I totally think that Pop keeps him out there even in the event of a Porter/DeRozan swap. Most of the need to move away from Forbes goes away, in fact once you add in the extra size and theoretically better D from Porter. Sure, most of us here think that's all the more reason to move on. But especially given Aldridge likely moving back inside without DeMar, I don't see it changing.


Poeltl only is limited to roughly 12-15 minutes most games because he plays behind Aldridge and even if you want to argue they could theoretically play more together than they do (not enough ball handling, passing or defensive mobility/versatility), they can't on a team with spacing issues along the perimeter.

Yes, and that's part of what made Pau a legit option until the wheels fell off. Spacing wouldn't be anything like a problem anymore, and the added play-making (which Poe has more than the average big, granted) would make it more viable. Indeed, the lack of mobility would be an even bigger issue, but Gasol had been a net-positive defensive player for years.

[Chinook]

:lol Chinny, my man!

In MY defense, Beli ended up contributing way more than your boy Pau last year...I didn't think your god Pop would be giving heavy mins to a washed Beli 30+ games into the season...definitely my mistake giving the old man way too much credit heading into this season.

I'm not sure that I'd consider being a net-negative for more minutes contributing. Spurs might have won a couple more games had been had the good grace to bow out like Gasol did.

[gambit1990]

crazy but i like it

lol. This is crazy and yet beautiful at the same time. I would prefer this over doing nothing.

WB/Murray
White/Mills
PJ/Walker
LMA/Lyles
Capela/Metu

Better lineup than we have now
:tu

spurs would have a loyal superstar who is also an ironman locked up for years. big three of WB, la, capela to go along with mills, murray, white, walker, tucker.

[Chinook]

Well yeah, thats what I asked you for your opinion first. I gave mine, so you were clear on where I stood, but I asked for yours.

What I mean is that it's just an opinion that it's been to be bad than mediocre. I used to be pro-tanking, but I think I'd rather the team make aggressive but smart moves to try to be better.


They are trying to win now. It’s why they have two max players in LMA/DeRozan and re-signed Rudy Gay and brought in an aging vet in Carroll. Along with keeping Beli, Mills, etc...They absolutely are trying to win now and that has been the goal. I dont think they can acquire a better talent than LMA to pair with DeRozan either so I don’t see much improvement with DeRozan led Spurs on the horizon. You listed 3 terrible franchises. Unless you think SA is poorly run as a whole (I don’t) then it’s not really comparable.

They're not. Neither DeRozan nor Aldridge are max players (they aren't making anywhere close to their maxes and didn't sign deals that were maxes in their day). The rest of those moves are sorta "win-now" in the sense that they aren't tanking. But they haven't made a single trade of a future asset unless you count Bertans for Carroll. There were moves like Bogdanovic that I wanted the team to make that they didn't seem to consider. They have all of their future picks except their 2022 second, and they have five players on rookie deals (six if you count Metu). They've certainly not exhausted the well to make this roster.


Good teams do good things and bad teams do bad things. Winning 45-47 is a noble cause; SA isnt there and I don’t think they can be with this core.

Eh, both guys have been on teams that have won more than that. The Spurs have a better record against team's at or above .500 than the Raptors do and comparable to a number of playoff teams. Their problem is they can't close against bad teams. Their 12-11 record against the dregs is in the bottom-10 in the league. It's totally within the realm of possibility for them to clean that up, especially if they improve their role-player talent. Everyone currently on a 47-win pace is at least plus-10 against the bad teams. If the Spurs had that same differential, they'd be at 24-18, or a 47-win pace. Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Just showing that it's not really a hard margin to realize.

EDIT:

Forgot that I pulled out your statement on MKE, Philly and MEM. That's a weird list, since the Bucks didn't tank and the Sixers and Grizzlies spent years treadmilling before eventually blowing it up. None of those teams are examples for why the team should try to get bad as soon as possible. I'm also not convinced the Sixers would be good had they not fired Hinkie. Even if you counted them all, their current success at tanking certainly doesn't outweight how long SAC. PHX and Minny have been bad outside of the Wolves one season of not trying to force their young core into star roles.

[acoelho1]

I will stand by mine that I need to see those guys play much better before I assume they're going to give All-Star production.

What good is his offensive production when a) we are outside the top 8 with a very tough schedule in Feb and b) DeRozan has shown time and time again that he shrinks in the playoffs or anytime you play him physical. What kind of example is he to the young guys by not playing defense and has terrible body language when things get tough. I don’t see any reason to keep him on roster. Although he’s injured, I much rather get a guy like Winslow from the heat then continue with DDR.

[tonski17]

keep DDR.

[RC_Drunkford]

Based on what? Your opinion?

Defense. Metu is a better defender, especially when it comes to altering and blocking shots. Then when you consider that Lyles only averages 5 points per game and most of his shots are wide open 3-pointers, plus him stinking up fast breaks consistently, it's not far fetched to think that Metu should be able to come up with similar if not better offensive production. Metu can shoot the 3 and can certainly hit wide open ones. His athleticism alone should get him a few putbacks and transition buckets.

Of course he'll need reps to adjust to NBA play, but play him consistently and he's better than Lyles. There's no doubt in my mind. He can do everything that Lyles does, while being way more athletic

[EasyMoney]

It would benefit the Spurs if they could sign him to a cheap deal RIGHT NOW. Then trade him in the off-season. But demar and his agent would never go for it since he can get a full max as a free agent.

[palangi]

:lol How you been, 'Lange? Feels like it's been a good while since I've run into you here.
Oh you know.... living the dream

[Frenchfred]

:tu

spurs would have a loyal superstar who is also an ironman locked up for years. big three of WB, la, capela to go along with mills, murray, white, walker, tucker.

Westbrook is 31 and has a game based on his athleticism. He cannot shoot to save his life. He is taking 20 shots a night, so he would take more shots from the youngsters than Derozan. Why would we want to get him and his fat salary?

[TD 21]

DeRozan is the piece around which things fit. If Murray can't fit with DeRozan, then it's Murray who has to change his game, because his game isn't good enough to build around. In fact, Murray has changed his game, and the team has been better for it. Can you trade DeMar for forwards and put the ball into Murray's hands more? Yes. Is that actually fitting better? No, because Murray shouldn't be more than the secondary ball-handler until/unless his skills improve. DeRozan and the four and Walker at the three continues to work for the Spurs, so there's no fit issue there. And White and DeRozan fit together just fine last year, and especially given White's role off the bench, there's room for them to co-exist. The problem with the personnel is that they are playing bad defenders like Forbes and Beli minutes when they could be playing Walker more or giving Carroll run. It's not that DeRozan is playing some of the best ball of his career and filling the stat sheet night in, night out.

Neither is DeRozan's game good enough to build around. I don't think anyone is suggesting that they wouldn't be sacrificing some off the dribble dynamism or oomph offensively by giving the 3 young guards more minutes/p-n-r opportunities. But so long as the returning piece(s) can fit around them, they could have a more cohesive 2-way unit.

DeRozan at the four is matchup dependant though and the reason they're playing bad defenders is in order to try to wring enough spacing out of the offense, which goes back to the difficulty of building around a player as one dimensional as him.



No. I get that you and some fans are "in pain" over this season. But I'd be just fine with this season if Walker were getting good minutes and we saw more cameos from other young guys. I'm in no rush to root for a bad (meaning actually bad, not mediocre) team. I'd prefer titles, but the last three years have been pretty okay all things considered. I doubt I'd watch them nearly as much if they were a 20-win team.


Fair enough, but that's precisely the sort of short sighted thinking front office's need to steer clear of and it's in part what's gotten them in the predicament they're in.



I'm not fixated on Gordon. He's just the easiest player to bring up. I've made my stance on this pretty clear: Tank or don't. If you can get a good pick and want to blow it up, I'd understand. But all that stuff you've argued about them getting "better fitting" pieces back just doesn't fly with me.

You are. He's just one example of the type of trade they could conceivably make. They could just as easily prioritize a lottery protected 1st or prospect of commensurate value.

In the end, it comes back to you overvaluing DeRozan because he looks the part of a star, while ignoring that he lacks the impact to match.



It's not just spacing with Forbes. I don't disagree that Bryn's shooting is the main reason he's out there. But I totally think that Pop keeps him out there even in the event of a Porter/DeRozan swap. Most of the need to move away from Forbes goes away, in fact once you add in the extra size and theoretically better D from Porter. Sure, most of us here think that's all the more reason to move on. But especially given Aldridge likely moving back inside without DeMar, I don't see it changing.

Nah, I feel confident in saying that in a DeRozan for Porter Jr. trade, Forbes' days of starting would be over.

Aldridge could more back inside and starting either Walker or White would provide decent enough spacing surrounding him. He was a beast with less 2 seasons ago (granted, he's probably slightly worse now).



Yes, and that's part of what made Pau a legit option until the wheels fell off. Spacing wouldn't be anything like a problem anymore, and the added play-making (which Poe has more than the average big, granted) would make it more viable. Indeed, the lack of mobility would be an even bigger issue, but Gasol had been a net-positive defensive player for years

I wasn't debating that. I'm just saying, don't take Poeltl's 17 mpg to mean that he's that caliber of player or that they view him as such. He plays that because that's all the construction of this roster allows.

[BackHome]

If you can keep DEROZZ and Lamar and still sign a young star player then I am all for keeping them. But if you have any indication that they expecting to much money or want to move to another team you trade them and get as much as ya can.

The biggest issue is we need a starting PF no Lyles is not close to a starting PF and Rudy looks to be done and Lamar is not a PF. The second thing is that White needs to be made the starting PG and Murray needs to be officially moved to SG he is not nor will never be a PG. As far as Walker you can give him minutes at SG and also at SF. And no Forbes should not get any minutes he is not better then Murray, White, nor Walker.

The thing though with DEROZZ I actually think if he was traded White, Walker, and Murray would improve dramatically by getting more playing time and not feeling obligated to get him the ball all the time. Heck I still think White and Poodle can be devastating in the pick and roll would also help Metu

Keldon and Walker together is going to be scary next year.

[mo7888]

What I mean is that it's just an opinion that it's been to be bad than mediocre. I used to be pro-tanking, but I think I'd rather the team make aggressive but smart moves to try to be better.




I'm fine either way but tanking and playing young guys is more interesting to me than this mediocrity. Of the two choices though I'd prefer (and be most interested in watching) the team if they makes those aggressive and smart moves you mentioned but, I haven't seen any of that. I can't 'invest' in that concept until I see some movement in that direction from the FO and if they aren't going to get that process started now I'd prefer blowing it up over this continued boring middle of the road path we're on.

[duncan2k5]

This place will have a rude awakening if we move on from him. It would take a Walker explosion to make us relevant.

We aren't relevant now

[duncan2k5]

It's hard to picture DeRozan as a piece of some future contending Spurs team -- that's probably the bottom line.

But in the meantime, he's carrying a flawed team with his own flawed (but very high energy) game.

In other words, can't live with him, can't live without him.

The resolution of this situation should speak volumes about the Spurs' thinking and their direction.

We can definitely live without him... imagine if the nuggets kept Melo...lol...they would have been a borderline 8th seed the entire time... Thinking they can't get rid of him or else they would get worse...

We would DEFINITELY get better without DeMar... We KNOW we would never win a ring with him... Why keep him?

[duncan2k5]

Just let him walk tbh. All of the trade scenarios are trash (unless by some miracle we get a top 10 pick). Taking on more salary and more years for another player doesn't make sense. Just take the L and move on from him

Trade for an expiring co tract and a pick

[Sugus]

If you can keep DEROZZ and Lamar and still sign a young star player then I am all for keeping them. But if you have any indication that they expecting to much money or want to move to another team you trade them and get as much as ya can.

The biggest issue is we need a starting PF no Lyles is not close to a starting PF and Rudy looks to be done and Lamar is not a PF. The second thing is that White needs to be made the starting PG and Murray needs to be officially moved to SG he is not nor will never be a PG. As far as Walker you can give him minutes at SG and also at SF. And no Forbes should not get any minutes he is not better then Murray, White, nor Walker.

The thing though with DEROZZ I actually think if he was traded White, Walker, and Murray would improve dramatically by getting more playing time and not feeling obligated to get him the ball all the time. Heck I still think White and Poodle can be devastating in the pick and roll would also help Metu

Keldon and Walker together is going to be scary next year.

I'm over the Lyles experiment. Bring on the Metu era. Fuck Pop, while he's the GOAT, for refusing to give young players minutes... Metu is stuck in Austin for a second season whilst Trey starts because he's been in the league a couple more years even though he's been trash the whole time.

[exstatic]

Defense. Metu is a better defender, especially when it comes to altering and blocking shots. Then when you consider that Lyles only averages 5 points per game and most of his shots are wide open 3-pointers, plus him stinking up fast breaks consistently, it's not far fetched to think that Metu should be able to come up with similar if not better offensive production. Metu can shoot the 3 and can certainly hit wide open ones. His athleticism alone should get him a few putbacks and transition buckets.

Of course he'll need reps to adjust to NBA play, but play him consistently and he's better than Lyles. There's no doubt in my mind. He can do everything that Lyles does, while being way more athletic

Lyles is a basketball player. He can shoot, handle, and make good passes. Metu is a jumping jack, an athlete.

[Russ]

Lyles is a basketball player. He can shoot, handle, and make good passes. Metu is a jumping jack, an athlete.

Metu is a bit mechanical and stiff at this point.

But he is also athletic.

Guys like LMA have well-honed basketball skills and they are able to work backwards (away from the basket) to enlarge their game.

Maybe Metu (with very few polished basketball skills) can use his athleticism and (hopefully) long-range shooting to win more playing time and thus get more comfortable on the court -- so he may leverage that playing time to actually develop his basic basketball skills.

Sort of the reverse LMA.

[gambit1990]

Westbrook is 31 and has a game based on his athleticism. He cannot shoot to save his life. He is taking 20 shots a night, so he would take more shots from the youngsters than Derozan. Why would we want to get him and his fat salary?
his game is based on his athleticism but he's been an ironman. chip engelland can help with his shot.

the dude put up 45/10/6 tonight on over 50% shooting.

he would hyper charge the spurs. this team needs some heart tbqh.

[Frenchfred]

his game is based on his athleticism but he's been an ironman. chip engelland can help with his shot.

the dude put up 45/10/6 tonight on over 50% shooting.

he would hyper charge the spurs. this team needs some heart tbqh.

he has been an ironman when he was in his 20s. Now that he is entering his 30s, his body will slow him down at some point. He is projected to make 41, 44 and 47 millions over the next three years, he will eat most of the teams's salary. People complain about the youngsters not getting enough shots, with him on the floor, they'll get even less.

[Frenchfred]

Trade for an expiring co tract and a pick

So we might as well let him go. The draft is really weak this year and no team will give us a top10 pick anyway.

[Prime BEEF]

We aren't relevant now
Bingo. I think the fan base is struggling to understand that

[RC_Drunkford]

Lyles is a basketball player. He can shoot, handle, and make good passes. Metu is a jumping jack, an athlete.

oh really? A player on an NBA team is a basketball player? Never would've thought.