Trade Rumours about Poeltl

[Shakril]

From time to time i am reading/hearing about rumours of Trades were Poeltl is involved. Considering that he is the best defender on the Team, and other Teams are reluctant to attack the Paint when he is on the court, i kind of asking myself, which kind of Player/s would legitimize trading away Poeltl. I did not include Picks, cause my question is more related on what would help the spurs right away.

Also important to note is, that he has not gotten an Extension and the way he plays, i believe he could get around 7-10 Mil per Contract, as he still has upside. Him learning a short distance shot and Free Throws would already improve his value much.

[exstatic]

From time to time i am reading/hearing about rumours of Trades were Poeltl is involved. Considering that he is the best defender on the Team, and other Teams are reluctant to attack the Paint when he is on the court, i kind of asking myself, which kind of Player/s would legitimize trading away Poeltl. I did not include Picks, cause my question is more related on what would help the spurs right away.

Also important to note is, that he has not gotten an Extension and the way he plays, i believe he could get around 7-10 Mil per Contract, as he still has upside. Him learning a short distance shot and Free Throws would already improve his value much.

What you think, and what Cs have been paid in the past has little to nothing to do with what Poeltl will make on his next deal. It's all about what the market will bear. There has probably never been a softer buyers market for Cs than right now. No one thinks they really need a big guy like Poeltl. They can just move some stretch 4 to the center spot.

[tbdog]

Spurs will let Poeltl find is own price. But I'd expect a 8m p/y would be his number.

[Coach X]

No way. I'd rather trade Aldridge and then slightly overpay Poetl.

[JeffDuncan]

Poeltl's qualifying offer will be just over $5 million. I expect the Spurs to make that offer. What happens next is up to Poeltl. He could decline the q.o. and test the market.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Could we strt by getting links to any of these rumors.

[JeffDuncan]

Could we strt by getting links to any of these rumors.


The only thing I've noticed is this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/clutchpoints.com/nba-trade-rumors-hawks-have-expressed-trade-interest-spurs-jakob-poeltl/amp/

The Hawks.

[ZeusWillJudge]

The only thing I've noticed is this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/clutchpoints.com/nba-trade-rumors-hawks-have-expressed-trade-interest-spurs-jakob-poeltl/amp/

The Hawks.


Thanks. At least that's more tangible than a Reddit rumor.

The Hawks will have one of the two worst records in the league this year. They're eyeballing a better C for the future, and Poeltl makes sense - even more sense in the East, IMO. If the Spurs aren't going to pay him, they absolutely should get some value. But shipping him out now probably puts the final nail in this season. So it would be a decision to start looking toward next year.

I mentioned in another thread that if, IF, the Spurs were ready to somewhat blow it up, trading LMA to Atlanta for Chandler Parson's dead contract could be the nucleus of a deal. But I also said that it would probably have to include a couple of other players to make it attractive enough for Atlanta. Poeltl is a good place to start.

LMA and Poeltl to Atlanta in exchange for cap space (Chandler), a pick, and filler to balance. Its doable, and it makes sense for both teams. But only if the Spurs are ready throw in the towel.

[TimDunkem]

You're an absolute idiot if you think you have to give a slightly above average center an extension.

All of basketball intelligentsia,

From analysts to beat writers,

Literally everyone...

...knows that you can find value easily at the center position. Guys will be available. You don't need to waste time locking down a center longterm unless he's a franchise type player. PERIOD.

I mean, I know you have a hard-on for Poeltl, OP...

But, no, just no. No fucking extensions for average or slightly above average centers.

[TimDunkem]

But, to answer your question, I'd trade Poeltl for a legit 4, 3 and D SF/SG, or a legit ballhandler/playmaker at the PG position.

Or anyone who does more than just sit in the paint. Again, those guys are everywhere.

[sasaint]

No way. I'd rather trade Aldridge and then slightly overpay Poetl.

Exactly.

[cd021]

I really like Poeltl, long term. PATFO would be crazy to trade him, so who knows...

[JeffDuncan]

You're an absolute idiot if you think you have to give a slightly above average center an extension.
...


Depends on the price. Which you didn't mention. Four years at $100 million would be absurd in this era. Three years at, oh, $21 to $24 million would be worth a more serious look.

Contract price matters.



...knows that you can find value easily at the center position. ...


Not that easily. You won't get good results by just grabbing any waiver, or any G Leaguer, and penciling him in.

A player who has shown specific abilities at the NBA level - passing, running the p&r, blocking shots - is still a more valuable individual, compared to somebody who's just a tall guy walking down the street.

[TimDunkem]

Depends on the price. Which you didn't mention. Four years at $100 million would be absurd in this era. Three years at, oh, $21 to $24 million would be worth a more serious look.

Contract price matters.



Not that easily. You won't get good results by just grabbing any waiver, or any G Leaguer, and penciling him in.

A player who has shown specific abilities at the NBA level - passing, running the p&r, blocking shots - is still a more valuable individual, compared to somebody who's just a tall guy walking down the street.

That's not what I mean though. Look at Richaun Holmes, for example. 3rd string journeyman and now a big piece and his signing was just an afterthought. He's hurt now, but he's just one example of many.

[Dex]

Could we strt by getting links to any of these rumors.

I heard it here...so it's a rumor. :rolleyes

[JeffDuncan]

That's not what I mean though. Look at Richaun Holmes, for example. ...



But Holmes is not cheaper than Poeltl. His current contract is more, in fact.

[TimDunkem]

But Holmes is not cheaper than Poeltl. His current contract is more, in fact.

He was an example of finding value. A year ago, he was an afterthought. No doubt there will be more like him available. I wouldn't commit to Poeltl knowing you can find someone as good or better at rougly the same price or cheaper.

[tbdog]

He is a fine role player, even in today's rules. If there was a slight shift in rules in favour of bugs, he'll be worth a long term option.

[JeffDuncan]

He was an example of finding value. A year ago, he was an afterthought. No doubt there will be more like him available. I wouldn't commit to Poeltl knowing you can find someone as good or better at rougly the same price or cheaper.

Ahem. I just pointed out, Holmes is not cheaper.

It would be senseless to let Poeltl go, if you'll have to pay more to replace him. Again, price matters.

[TimDunkem]

Ahem. I just pointed out, Holmes is not cheaper.

It would be senseless to let Poeltl go, if you'll have to pay more to replace him. Again, price matters.

You think Poeltl won't get more? Let someone else overpay him when you can find value later. The center position isn't the position that you want to invest long term deals in. Pretty simple.

[RC_Drunkford]

Pop wins a game by playing Gay at Center and immediately wants to trade Poeltl :lol

Spurs don't have a back up C, so I wouldn't do it. Depends on what you can back though. PATFO would probably give up a valuable bench piece if they get back a starter. Starting line up is the issue

[JeffDuncan]

You think Poeltl won't get more? Let someone else overpay him when you can find value later. The center position isn't the position that you want to invest long term deals in. Pretty simple.

Why scrounge for a new center every year - who may or may not work out from one year to the next - when you can have continuity with a known quantity?

You speak of "overpay" but again you don't mention a number. I don't think anybody is advocating overpaying (except Pop with his pets.)

What do you think Poeltl is worth, so as not to overpay him? As mentioned, his q.o. is $5 mil.

I'll also mention that if finding value were such a sure thing, Carroll would be playing 24 min/gm. Center position, or any other position, it isn't that easy.

[TimDunkem]

Why scrounge for a new center every year - who may or may not work out from one year to the next - when you can have continuity with a known quantity?

You speak of "overpay" but again you don't mention a number. I don't think anybody is advocating overpaying (except Pop with his pets.)

What do you think Poeltl is worth, so as not to overpay him? As mentioned, his q.o. is $5 mil.

I'll also mention that if finding value were such a sure thing, Carroll would be playing 24 min/gm. Center position, or any other position, it isn't that easy.

Anything more than that QO would be too much. Poeltl is essentially a backup center. I'd rather take my chances because, yes, it has been easy these days for most teams to find guys to fill that spot.

[slick'81]

Be nice if spurs unleashed him or if he started shooting 3's but lma is still here

[ZeusWillJudge]

Pop wins a game by playing Gay at Center and immediately wants to trade Poeltl :lol

Spurs don't have a back up C, so I wouldn't do it. Depends on what you can back though. PATFO would probably give up a valuable bench piece if they get back a starter. Starting line up is the issue


The article JeffDuncan linked is the only "rumor" I've seen about trading Poeltl. And even it only mentions that Atlanta was inquiring about him "earlier in the season". I didn't see anything about the Spurs looking to get rid of Poeltl, or any recent discussions.





Anything more than that QO would be too much. Poeltl is essentially a backup center. I'd rather take my chances because, yes, it has been easy these days for most teams to find guys to fill that spot.


I think you underestimate him. Most NBA C's take a few years to show us who they are going to be. Poeltl's recent advance is pretty typical. He's been an absolute beast in the paint - to the point that opposing teams start to avoid going at him. That's valuable. I think he's worth keeping.

[TimDunkem]

The article JeffDuncan linked is the only "rumor" I've seen about trading Poeltl. And even it only mentions that Atlanta was inquiring about him "earlier in the season". I didn't see anything about the Spurs looking to get rid of Poeltl, or any recent discussions.







I think you underestimate him. Most NBA C's take a few years to show us who they are going to be. Poeltl's recent advance is pretty typical. He's been an absolute beast in the paint - to the point that opposing teams start to avoid going at him. That's valuable. I think he's worth keeping.


Not at anything higher than the QO. I think he'll hit his ceiling soon. Again, not worth the investment.

[Shakril]

As i said starting the Thread, its mostly rumours. Teams mentionend to date were Atlanta, Memphis and Sacramento. (Last 2 i forgot were i read it, so no links).

When you see how much players like Forbes, Carroll and Gay get on the spurs, and other Players on other teams, it is not unreasonable to think that a Quality Rim Protector, who poeltl is, can fetch around 8 Mil a year. Nba is not only 3s, but also high percent shots around the rim. Thats why i believe Poeltl has great value. Sadly many "experts" on this board like TimDunkem undervalue him massively.

In Conclusion:

Spurs should resign him, but as of now i a missing a coherent plan from the Spurs regarding the future Rosterbuilding. I actually was disturbed they resigned Gay for the money they did.
So i would not surprised if they trade him to either a contender or to a team that can give value back. Letting him go for nothing in the Summer is probably the worst that can happen.

[ragas]

Poeltl could take the qualifying offer for developing his skills with Timmy & Chip one more year - except he gets an offer from the Raptors or a contender. After that he should easily find a better team to play for.

[sananspursfan21]

You're an absolute idiot if you think you have to give a slightly above average center an extension.

All of basketball intelligentsia,

From analysts to beat writers,

Literally everyone...

...knows that you can find value easily at the center position. Guys will be available. You don't need to waste time locking down a center longterm unless he's a franchise type player. PERIOD.

I mean, I know you have a hard-on for Poeltl, OP...

But, no, just no. No fucking extensions for average or slightly above average centers.

Seems like centers have always been kind of a turnstile position, especially for San Antonio.

[JeffDuncan]

...
Spurs should resign him, but as of now i a missing a coherent plan from the Spurs regarding the future Rosterbuilding. ...



I'd challenge anybody to find a coherent plan in the Spurs' roster construction. I think the Spurs realize they should probably have a center on the team. I guess so.

[Fireball]

there is nothing like a Poeltl jam ...on offense and defense ... lets keep him

[Drom John]

ESPN Real Plus Minus Wins

All Players
81 D.J. Augustin
82 Jakob Poeltl
83 Mikal Bridges

Centers
11 Karl Anthony-Towns
12 Jakob Poeltl
13 Jonas Valanciunas

Center Offense RPM
1 Karl Anthony-Towns
2 Jakob Poeltl
3 Boban Marjonovic

Center Defense RPM
28 Nikola Vucevic
29 Jakob Poeltl
30 Tristan Thompson

[Seventyniner]

I'd challenge anybody to find a coherent plan in the Spurs' roster construction. I think the Spurs realize they should probably have a center on the team. I guess so.

At this point I think they're just playing out the string until 2021 free agency. All the big contracts are lining up to expire then.

Still, I don't think anyone in the front office anticipated this big of a dropoff from last season. I think they were okay with being a low playoff seed and a first round exit this season and next, but the disaster this season has become will force their hand. How important is the playoff streak and revenue versus long-term plans? It will be interesting to see what happens.

Inertia is the most powerful force in the universe, though. Pop and the front office seem to be half-assing it this season, so I won't expect anything different for now.

[spurspl]

the only better fit centers in long term we can get is drummond, bamba and collins(hes questionable bc of injuries). So id keep poeltl and focus on getting real future star on another position via trading lma/ddr and the rest players including djm loonie white if needed.

[8FOR!3]

Ya’ll realize he’s only 24 right? I’d only trade him if it were a steal on our behalf. He’s already very good, he seems to be getting better every year. Ya’ll look at guys like Murray and expect them to develop but look at guys like Poeltl and think he is what he is. I think he develops a 3 point shot at some point in his career but I don’t think it’s anything that needs to be rushed.

to put it into perspective, Tiago Splitter was a rookie in the NBA at Poeltl’s age

[John B]

Poeltl needs to hit them FT's or he would be a liability out there. Metu would be a viable option

[Sugus]

Ya’ll realize he’s only 24 right? I’d only trade him if it were a steal on our behalf. He’s already very good, he seems to be getting better every year. Ya’ll look at guys like Murray and expect them to develop but look at guys like Poeltl and think he is what he is. I think he develops a 3 point shot at some point in his career but I don’t think it’s anything that needs to be rushed.

to put it into perspective, Tiago Splitter was a rookie in the NBA at Poeltl’s age

This. Not to mention, there is already a marked improvement on Poeltl's play from the way he was doing this time last season... He's clearly not peaked yet or close to it. Ideally the Spurs trade LMA for assets and have Jakob starting next season; he's too good to be playing 12mpg. I'd consider trading him away of the Spurs were lottery picking and there was a transcendent center, à la Timmy, to be had.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Not at anything higher than the QO. I think he'll hit his ceiling soon. Again, not worth the investment.


Wow, you know all about basketball.

So you think he's worth about 1/3 of, say, Gorgi Deng or Ian Mahinmi? (Do you even know how much the QO for Poeltl will be, without looking it up?) On the list of current C's and C-F's, Poeltl is 20th in Win Shares. He's 17th in total Rebounds. He's 9th in total AST's. All that, even though he's only 33rd in minutes played.

He's taken a big step upward in the last couple of months. So what is it, specifically, that tells you he's at his ceiling?

[Drom John]

Qualifying from Hoops Hype and above, then the new estimated MLE from Real GM

Jakob Poeltl
$5,087,870 Qualifying offer
$9,755,000 MLE, non-taxpayer
$6,025,000 MLE, tax-payer
$5,023,000 MLE, team-room

[exstatic]

Wow, you know all about basketball.

So you think he's worth about 1/3 of, say, Gorgi Deng or Ian Mahinmi? (Do you even know how much the QO for Poeltl will be, without looking it up?) On the list of current C's and C-F's, Poeltl is 20th in Win Shares. He's 17th in total Rebounds. He's 9th in total AST's. All that, even though he's only 33rd in minutes played.

He's taken a big step upward in the last couple of months. So what is it, specifically, that tells you he's at his ceiling?

Both of those players signed their deals before the rules changes that basically forbid players from fighting around picks, forcing tons of switches and making big men vulnerable to perimeter defense. You cannot compare the value of a center 3-4 years ago to the value now. It doesn't matter what they signed for in 2016, it matters how teams value players in the 5 spot RIGHT NOW, or, more accurately, next summer. It would be like comparing the value of a 2000 sqft house in San Antonio with a 2000 sqft house in San Jose, CA. The markets are just different, even though the commodity is the same.

[TimDunkem]

Both of those players signed their deals before the rules changes that basically forbid players from fighting around picks, forcing tons of switches and making big men vulnerable to perimeter defense. You cannot compare the value of a center 3-4 years ago to the value now. It doesn't matter what they signed for in 2016, it matters how teams value players in the 5 spot RIGHT NOW, or, more accurately, next summer. It would be like comparing the value of a 2000 sqft house in San Antonio with a 2000 sqft house in San Jose, CA. The markets are just different, even though the commodity is the same.

Nail. Hammer. Head. You got it.

Poeltl isn't bad. He's better than I thought he would be, honestly. But he is more of a traditional defensive center. Valuable? Sure. Essential in today's game? Not so much. You need switchable bigs, not your traditional shot blockers.

If the Spurs upgrade where they SHOULD first (the perimeter and 4), then Poeltl won't be as necessary because guys like Forbes, Bell, Mills, DD, etc, aren't letting their man blow by them thus forcing him to clean up all those messes.

The Spurs would miss him against those teams with traditional post players, but it isn't worth settling on him with the kinds of contracts this team has been giving out lately. And, no, I don't trust them not to overpay for Poeltl.

[RC_Drunkford]

I would keep Poeltl. Fits with the young core, should be cheap to resign and is superb defensively. He has to develop an offensive skill set and has been working on it, so further improvement is likely. Not to mention that we only have 2 Centers and C's usually take a long time to understand Pop's overrated system.

[TimDunkem]

I would keep Poeltl. Fits with the young core, should be cheap to resign and is superb defensively. He has to develop an offensive skill set and has been working on it, so further improvement is likely. Not to mention that we only have 2 Centers and C's usually take a long time to understand Pop's overrated system.

If Poeltl starts stepping out and hitting Js and can suddenly switch out on the perimeter, then you pay that man. If he is the same guy plus some ugly hookshot then the Spurs should keep looking.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Both of those players signed their deals before the rules changes that basically forbid players from fighting around picks, forcing tons of switches and making big men vulnerable to perimeter defense. You cannot compare the value of a center 3-4 years ago to the value now. It doesn't matter what they signed for in 2016, it matters how teams value players in the 5 spot RIGHT NOW, or, more accurately, next summer. It would be like comparing the value of a 2000 sqft house in San Antonio with a 2000 sqft house in San Jose, CA. The markets are just different, even though the commodity is the same.


Why don't you tell me exactly what rules changed in 2016 that forbid players from fighting around screens. The NBA publishes rules changes. I'll wait while you look it up.

[Chinook]

Why don't you tell me exactly what rules changed in 2016 that forbid players from fighting around screens. The NBA publishes rules changes. I'll wait while you look it up.

It wasn't an explicit rule change. It was that they put in a "point of emphasis" for refs to call more contact by defenders on the perimeter. The league actually rarely changes their rules, but they will unofficially tell their refs to call things differently.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/2019/10/21/how-freedom-movement-has-changed-nba/4059552002/

That's one of the articles that talks about it.

I don't disagree with you that "freedom of movement" didn't really do much to centers like Poeltl. But I also think it's somewhat dishonest to use two contracts that were considered bad when signed and were definitely signed in a friendlier market than what bigs have now. It'd be really hard to see him get a deal averaging eight figures.

[ZeusWillJudge]

It wasn't an explicit rule change. It was that they put in a "point of emphasis" for refs to call more contact by defenders on the perimeter. The league actually rarely changes their rules, but they will unofficially tell their refs to call things differently.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/2019/10/21/how-freedom-movement-has-changed-nba/4059552002/

That's one of the articles that talks about it.

I don't disagree with you that "freedom of movement" didn't really do much to centers like Poeltl. But I also think it's somewhat dishonest to use two contracts that were considered bad when signed and were definitely signed in a friendlier market than what bigs have now. It'd be really hard to see him get a deal averaging eight figures.


Exactly. They changed the way the game is called, but didn't make it explicit. Those are things that can (and do) get changed as they see that things are out of balance. I didn't say that Poeltl is worth what those two guys are getting paid. I questioned whether he's only worth 1/3 of what they are getting paid. You know the answer to that.

I saw a league-wide shot chart recently. It was scary how almost all the shots are from out at the 3P line, or in the paint. Poeltl is showing signs of being a damn good defender in the paint. That makes him valuable, even if he doesn't develop a 3P shot. He also scores in the paint, and does a decent job of running the floor.

The only thing I questioned - the ONLY thing - is the statement that he's worth the QO, and nothing more. The QO is only 125% of his fourth year rookie deal, which for him is about $4.7M. He's going to get more than that in a weak FA class. He just is. And I think you know that, even if the guy I was talking to doesn't.

[TimDunkem]

I wasn't implying he won't get more in the market. I know he will, but it shouldn't be from the Spurs.

[Chinook]

Exactly. They changed the way the game is called, but didn't make it explicit. Those are things that can (and do) get changed as they see that things are out of balance. I didn't say that Poeltl is worth what those two guys are getting paid. I questioned whether he's only worth 1/3 of what they are getting paid. You know the answer to that.

I saw a league-wide shot chart recently. It was scary how almost all the shots are from out at the 3P line, or in the paint. Poeltl is showing signs of being a damn good defender in the paint. That makes him valuable, even if he doesn't develop a 3P shot. He also scores in the paint, and does a decent job of running the floor.

The only thing I questioned - the ONLY thing - is the statement that he's worth the QO, and nothing more. The QO is only 125% of his fourth year rookie deal, which for him is about $4.7M. He's going to get more than that in a weak FA class. He just is. And I think you know that, even if the guy I was talking to doesn't.

I think Poeltl is worth about the QO is the Spurs think he's going to be a backup for the length of the deal. If he can be a starter/30mpg guy, I wouldn't really mind $30M/4. Honestly, when the team is paying a guy $7 Million to not play, they can afford to give a guy who contributes a big more. Hopefully, once Pop leaves, the apparent disconnect between the FO and coaching staff won't be there anymore. Poe's a really good per-minute center, and I don't think that's really easy to find. For sure, definitely backups and third-stringers shouldn't get much money. But having a good defensive center will literally always be important.

I also think that people tend to think of spacing a one-dimensional, meaning just along the three-point line. In reality, spacing is three-dimensional, and having a rim-running big who finishes well will open things up for everyone else. You can't play five-out. Right now, DeRozan plays inside enough to where the team benefits from a stretch-five. But that may well not always be the case, and it already isn't with the bench. Poe's lack of shooting isn't close of the biggest problem he has. He has to focus on improving his strengths like being a more consistent rebounder and keeping his fouls down rather than getting new skills. There are a number of defensive C's who score opportunistically on good teams in the league today.

[ZeusWillJudge]

I think Poeltl is worth about the QO is the Spurs think he's going to be a backup for the length of the deal. If he can be a starter/30mpg guy, I wouldn't really mind $30M/4. Honestly, when the team is paying a guy $7 Million to not play, they can afford to give a guy who contributes a big more. Hopefully, once Pop leaves, the apparent disconnect between the FO and coaching staff won't be there anymore. Poe's a really good per-minute center, and I don't think that's really easy to find. For sure, definitely backups and third-stringers shouldn't get much money. But having a good defensive center will literally always be important.

I also think that people tend to think of spacing a one-dimensional, meaning just along the three-point line. In reality, spacing is three-dimensional, and having a rim-running big who finishes well will open things up for everyone else. You can't play five-out. Right now, DeRozan plays inside enough to where the team benefits from a stretch-five. But that may well not always be the case, and it already isn't with the bench. Poe's lack of shooting isn't close of the biggest problem he has. He has to focus on improving his strengths like being a more consistent rebounder and keeping his fouls down rather than getting new skills. There are a number of defensive C's who score opportunistically on good teams in the league today.


:tu That's a good explanation of something that most people don't appear to get. Put Poeltl on the right team, and he's valuable. The only thing I would dare to add is that he WILL get 4/$30 from someone, if not a little more. If not the Spurs, then someone else. The $4.7M QO just isn't enough to get it done. If Pop isn't going to use him in a way that's worth more than that, then they should absolutely move him now. He's one of the players on the roster who has positive value.

Poeltl could definitely improve his rebounding, starting with boxing out. But compared to other big men in the league, his fouls really aren't bad. I was looking at a Per36 number, and it's been a bit since I looked, but I don't think it's changed that much. He's far from a foul maching. He could improve situationally, but overall he's not that bad. He also has (would have) value with DeRozan on the floor, because he sets good picks and he's not a half bad dive man. If the Spurs do let him go, there will be people here whining when they see how he could have been used.

[hombre]

Someone will give him more than the Spurs will pay. Teams always do.

[hombre]

Or should I say teams seem to overpay for our solid role guys.

[Strategic]

Seems like centers have always been kind of a turnstile position, especially for San Antonio.Truth bomb. And what happened to the 2nd round pick Pop got from Atlanta as part of the Splitter trade?

[Dverde]

Someone will give him more than the Spurs will pay. Teams always do.

Fathead dominating the league in Memphis with his 5.1 points per game :lol

[Chinook]

Truth bomb. And what happened to the 2nd round pick Pop got from Atlanta as part of the Splitter trade?

ATL had their pick top-55 protected. They were a middle-of-the-road playoff team that year, so it didn't convey. That the Clippers pick conveyed that one time was a minor miracle, since it was supposed to be fake. ATL had just come off earning a top-five record in 2015, but the next year, they were seventh, and it sorta petered out from there.

[Drom John]

Truth bomb. And what happened to the 2nd round pick Pop got from Atlanta as part of the Splitter trade?

July 9, 2015: Traded by the San Antonio Spurs to the Atlanta Hawks for Georgios Printezis and a 2017 2nd round draft pick. (2017 2nd-rd pick was top-55 protected and did not convey)

[exstatic]

Truth bomb. And what happened to the 2nd round pick Pop got from Atlanta as part of the Splitter trade?

The pick was never meant to convey. Bud and ATL basically let us rent a chunk of their cap space for free.

[TD 21]

This has become Bertans 2.0. There's too many rumors to ignore them at this point. Either now or in the off season, these dumb shits are going to once again hand away one of the few players they have with positive metrics.

There's a good chance he's the best long term piece from the infamous trade, he fills a positional need now and going forward (most oversaturated position leaguewide, but still), is the type of center they're known to like, won't return equal value, shouldn't break the bank and they don't lack for flexibility going forward, so why on earth is he apparently available? I don't get it.

[Dejounte]

Did spurstalk forget how much they undervalued Poetl during this past offseason and said yall wouldnt pay him more than 5 million? Lmfao. Now yall are saying he is untouchable. Yall are funny as hell. Yet i am the one who is terrible at analyzing players. timvp you see this shit?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'd love for the Spurs to keep Poetl, but as others have said, we don't have a great history with big men.

[TD 21]

Did spurstalk forget how much they undervalued Poetl during this past offseason and said yall wouldnt pay him more than 5 million? Lmfao. Now yall are saying he is untouchable. Yall are funny as hell. Yet i am the one who is terrible at analyzing players. timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8) you see this shit?

I didn't and I said then that I'd be willing to go as high as $7-8 million, if necessary. I was high on him before the trade, telling people how good he was already.

He's not literally untouchable obviously, but given what I said (mainly that they wouldn't get back enough to make it worth their while), he should be.

[DPG21920]

I do wonder if Jakob will be the cost of moving Beli or Mills or Carroll? I can see a scenario where he’s used to dump players without giving up draft picks since they probably feels he’s replaceable for cheaper.

[TD 21]

I do wonder if Jakob will be the cost of moving Beli or Mills or Carroll? I can see a scenario where he’s used to dump players without giving up draft picks since they probably feels he’s replaceable for cheaper.

That's would be incredibly stupid and unecessary. Neither Belinelli or Carroll is an albatross or problem. The former was always going to be a buy out candidate and the latter, if they can't dump him now, just wait until the off season and it shouldn't be too difficult.

You don't attach a good, young asset to do that, especially when neither is hamstringing the organization.

[DPG21920]

That's would be incredibly stupid and unecessary. Neither Belinelli or Carroll is an albatross or problem. The former was always going to be a buy out candidate and the latter, if they can't dump him now, just wait until the off season and it shouldn't be too difficult.

You don't attach a good, young asset to do that, especially when neither is hamstringing the organization.

Mills aside I agree

[gambit1990]

definitely not untouchable but the spurs need size as it is.

i'd move him and parts for adams, capela, drummond.

[Dejounte]

I didn't and I said then that I'd be willing to go as high as $7-8 million, if necessary. I was high on him before the trade, telling people how good he was already.

He's not literally untouchable obviously, but given what I said (mainly that they wouldn't get back enough to make it worth their while), he should be.

For the record, i wasnt really addressing you

[sasaint]

I do wonder if Jakob will be the cost of moving Beli or Mills or Carroll? I can see a scenario where he’s used to dump players without giving up draft picks since they probably feels he’s replaceable for cheaper.

Mills is a legit asset. It may cost us to move Marco or Demarre, but not Mills.

[sasaint]

I'd love for the Spurs to keep Poetl, but as others have said, we don't have a great history with big men.

What do y'all mean by not having a great history with big men?

[mo7888]

Mills aside I agree

Attaching Poeltl to dump Mills would be incredibly dumb on our part as well. If it brings back a significant asset so be it but we shouldn't sacrifice him just to dump Mills.

[DPG21920]

Attaching Poeltl to dump Mills would be incredibly dumb on our part as well. If it brings back a significant asset so be it but we shouldn't sacrifice him just to dump Mills.

Depends - if they aren’t paying Jakob anyways? And it leads to ability to really re tool? I can see it.

Also hoopshype says Carroll only guaranteed 1.5M next year but others reporting fully guaranteed

[DPG21920]

Mills is a legit asset. It may cost us to move Marco or Demarre, but not Mills.

Not sure that’s true with his defense and contract.

[sasaint]

Not sure that’s true with his defense and contract.

Check his Hollinger stats. He is having a very good season. A team like Orlando that is desperate for some outside shooting would definitely give us something of value for Patty.

[TimDunkem]

Not sure that’s true with his defense and contract.

His contract isn't an issue. If a team needs shooting he could bring value for this season and be traded next year as an expiring if need be. He's actually one of the more tradable players on this team.

Unfortunately, the Spurs wouldn't give up their fan and organizational favorite even if it meant improving the team.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

What do y'all mean by not having a great history with big men?

They tend to not be lifers on the Spurs' roster.

[sasaint]

They tend to not be lifers on the Spurs' roster.

We had 2 lifers for over 35 years. Oberto was for all practical purposes. Splitter, too; he was shot when we traded him to Atlanta.

[sasaint]

His contract isn't an issue. If a team needs shooting he could bring value for this season and be traded next year as an expiring if need be. He's actually one of the more tradable players on this team.

Unfortunately, the Spurs wouldn't give up their fan and organizational favorite even if it meant improving the team.

From Patty's perspective, you almost wonder why he doesn't ask for a trade. Pop must have already promised him the rafters.

[TimDunkem]

From Patty's perspective, you almost wonder why he doesn't ask for a trade. Pop must have already promised him the rafters.

Basically. He is untouchable here with no pressure to perform. What else could he want?

[sasaint]

Basically. He is untouchable here with no pressure to perform. What else could he want?

A chip. Or at least a decent shot at one. He is only untouchable from Pop's perspective. With all the emphasis on 3s and Patty's having a very good year, I truly wonder why he hasn't asked to be traded to a contender. I hadn't ever really looked at things from his perspective...

[mo7888]

Depends - if they aren’t paying Jakob anyways? And it leads to ability to really re tool? I can see it.

Also hoopshype says Carroll only guaranteed 1.5M next year but others reporting fully guaranteed

That's interesting on Carroll, I was under the impression that the $1.5 was for the 3rd year (I thought we gave him a 3rd year). Hopefully I was wrong.

On Mills, I'm pretty sure he has positive value. I think he even has value here if we would move Forbes. He's not a bad fit when surrounded by wings that defend. He just doesn't need to be on the court with other defensive liabilities (Forbes-Belli).

[Seventyniner]

Depends - if they aren’t paying Jakob anyways? And it leads to ability to really re tool? I can see it.

Also hoopshype says Carroll only guaranteed 1.5M next year but others reporting fully guaranteed

IIRC Carroll was signed-and-traded into the traded player exception (TPE) the Spurs got for moving Bertans into the Wizards' cap space. Sign-and-trade contracts have to be at least three years (correct me if I'm wrong), so Carroll's salary next year should be fully guaranteed. It's the third season that I think has only $1.5M guaranteed.

[TimDunkem]

That's interesting on Carroll, I was under the impression that the $1.5 was for the 3rd year (I thought we gave him a 3rd year). Hopefully I was wrong.

On Mills, I'm pretty sure he has positive value. I think he even has value here if we would move Forbes. He's not a bad fit when surrounded by wings that defend. He just doesn't need to be on the court with other defensive liabilities (Forbes-Belli).

Yes. The roster is constructed poorly.

Yes - again - this isn't changing until Poop is gone.

[DPG21920]

IIRC Carroll was signed-and-traded into the traded player exception (TPE) the Spurs got for moving Bertans into the Wizards' cap space. Sign-and-trade contracts have to be at least three years (correct me if I'm wrong), so Carroll's salary next year should be fully guaranteed. It's the third season that I think has only $1.5M guaranteed.

Yeah think you’re correct. Just one site had conflicting info but think they just got their years wrong

[Chinook]

Ugh. You don't trade away players because they're bad. You trade for players/assets you need. The Spurs trading Poeltl or any other player folks like isn't them punishing him or saying they prefer to keep Forbes or whatever. It's them saying that they really needed that return and the player was the best way to get it. It's possible that Jakob is the only player teams are willing to offer an okay first for. If the Spurs are rebuilding, then it doesn't matter that Poeltl is a serviceable young big. If they are still trying to make a run, it's only going to happen because LMA plays out of his mind. In either event, you can justify using him as part of the package. That doesn't mean that there aren't trades that wouldn't make sense or that PATFO wouldn't make a bad trade. But everyone on the roster is available for the right deal, not just fucking Beli and Forbes and Carroll.

That said, I'm not a fan of trading for Russell, and he's the only possible target I've heard. I just don't think he's good enough. But I could see GS loving Poeltl enough to want him to be part of a Russell package, and that might give SA leverage to grab something of decent value from the team that actually acquires DAR like Covington, Culver, Winslow or Herro. If it's one the young wings, I could totally understand it, because the none of the young players is performing well enough to preclude the team acquiring someone at their position. I could see something like Poeltl and a top-10 protected first for Culver being a legit move to get top talent, and if it causes the team to fall apart and get their own top-10 pick, then the club could add much higher upside guys than just a solidly above-average but low-minute center.

[mo7888]

Ugh. You don't trade away players because they're bad. You trade for players/assets you need. The Spurs trading Poeltl or any other player folks like isn't them punishing him or saying they prefer to keep Forbes or whatever. It's them saying that they really needed that return and the player was the best way to get it. It's possible that Jakob is the only player teams are willing to offer an okay first for. If the Spurs are rebuilding, then it doesn't matter that Poeltl is a serviceable young big. If they are still trying to make a run, it's only going to happen because LMA plays out of his mind. In either event, you can justify using him as part of the package. That doesn't mean that there aren't trades that wouldn't make sense or that PATFO wouldn't make a bad trade. But everyone on the roster is available for the right deal, not just fucking Beli and Forbes and Carroll.

That said, I'm not a fan of trading for Russell, and he's the only possible target I've heard. I just don't think he's good enough. But I could see GS loving Poeltl enough to want him to be part of a Russell package, and that might give SA leverage to grab something of decent value from the team that actually acquires DAR like Covington, Culver, Winslow or Herro. If it's one the young wings, I could totally understand it, because the none of the young players is performing well enough to preclude the team acquiring someone at their position. I could see something like Poeltl and a top-10 protected first for Culver being a legit move to get top talent, and if it causes the team to fall apart and get their own top-10 pick, then the club could add much higher upside guys than just a solidly above-average but low-minute center.

Trading Poeltl for something of value is fine and I don't think most would be against that, it's just the idea of attaching him to get rid of a player that doesn't make much sense.

[DPG21920]

Let me be clear: me pondering that was not an endorsement. It was wondering if SA is going to go that path IF clearing books was the goal.

[ZeusWillJudge]

I posted in another thread - there's a story that the Spurs have been listening to offers for Jakob, but their asking price is too high. If it's even true, that says that they're thinking they will pay to keep him. If they were going to lose him to free agency, they would be better off dealing him. But if someone is willing to overpay, they would ship him.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Let me be clear: me pondering that was not an endorsement. It was wondering if SA is going to go that path IF clearing books was the goal.


Don't bother. The word "if" has no meaning. Speculating about something means you're saying you want it to happen.

[DPG21920]

Don't bother. The word "if" has no meaning. Speculating about something means you're saying you want it to happen.

Is that just a general musing about ST mentality? Because I really don’t feel strongly about using Jakob to dump players :lol

I wouldn’t be mad; this team if they aren’t going to blow it up need a lot of flexibility to reshape the team but I’d rather obtain assets vs dump them

[sasaint]

I posted in another thread - there's a story that the Spurs have been listening to offers for Jakob, but their asking price is too high. If it's even true, that says that they're thinking they will pay to keep him. If they were going to lose him to free agency, they would be better off dealing him. But if someone is willing to overpay, they would ship him.

Good point about planning on keeping him. Now if you read a companion article about the Spurs entertaining offers for LMA, please let me be the first to know.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Is that just a general musing about ST mentality? Because I really don’t feel strongly about using Jakob to dump players :lol

I wouldn’t be mad; this team if they aren’t going to blow it up need a lot of flexibility to reshape the team but I’d rather obtain assets vs dump them

Yes. General bitching. :lol

I don't mind a whole hell of a lot anymore, except that I want them to pick a direction. Nothing is going to change unless something changes. But I'd like to see something that looks like a coordinated plan instead of patchwork.

[DPG21920]

Yes. General bitching. :lol

I don't mind a whole hell of a lot anymore, except that I want them to pick a direction. Nothing is going to change unless something changes. But I'd like to see something that looks like a coordinated plan instead of patchwork.

Agreed. I have my preferences, but I understand wanting to be a playoff team. But if that’s the case they need to start building a better team.

[Chinook]

Trading Poeltl for something of value is fine and I don't think most would be against that, it's just the idea of attaching him to get rid of a player that doesn't make much sense.

They aren't going to trade him to get rid of Beli. That's not even an idea worth discussing. They might trade him and Beli to acquire a player they want, and that player might be someone ST doesn't want, but it won't be the same thing at all. Carroll, I don't think they'll include Poeltl to trade him for expirings. Simply put, they don't need the cap space next off-season badly enough.

I'm talking about the persistent mentality that PATFO needs to trade their bad players while hoarding their young players because of a misguided idea that the team can build around seven mediocre prospects and have a better future than just horse-whipping their current duo. They need to get significantly better, either in terms of their present of their future. Very few players on team right now are too valuable to either paradigm to hold back, but a number are so marginal that they might not be able to move the needle one way or another.

[DPG21920]

They aren't going to trade him to get rid of Beli. That's not even an idea worth discussing. They might trade him and Beli to acquire a player they want, and that player might be someone ST doesn't want, but it won't be the same thing at all. Carroll, I don't think they'll include Poeltl to trade him for expirings. Simply put, they don't need the cap space next off-season badly enough.

I'm talking about the persistent mentality that PATFO needs to trade their bad players while hoarding their young players because of a misguided idea that the team can build around seven mediocre prospects and have a better future than just horse-whipping their current duo. They need to get significantly better, either in terms of their present of their future. Very few players on team right now are too valuable to either paradigm to hold back, but a number are so marginal that they might not be able to move the needle one way or another.

Depends on the plan. I think cap space could play a major role if the goal is to really fine tune this roster around DeRozan/LMA. AT that point, being able to shed Rudy and/or Mills and/or Carroll creates an immediate path to flexibility. If Jakob is the cost of that? Better than a pick to dump those guys.

[JeffDuncan]

IIRC Carroll was signed-and-traded into the traded player exception (TPE) the Spurs got for moving Bertans into the Wizards' cap space. Sign-and-trade contracts have to be at least three years (correct me if I'm wrong), so Carroll's salary next year should be fully guaranteed. It's the third season that I think has only $1.5M guaranteed.


That's correct in principle. Carroll was signed for 3 years at a guaranteed total of $15 million, at the time of signing. The year-by-year salary structure is:

2019-20 $7 mil
2020-21 $6.650 mil
2021-22 $7 mil

That adds up to more than 15 mil, which means that $1.35 mil of the 3rd year is guaranteed.

However, the figure for the third year does have significance. If Carroll is not waived before 6/24/'21, the team will owe him the full 7 for the 3rd year. The 3rd year is fully guaranteed if he is not waived, in other words. It's a provision for, "if you keep me, you pay me."

[RC_Drunkford]

They aren't going to trade him to get rid of Beli. That's not even an idea worth discussing. They might trade him and Beli to acquire a player they want, and that player might be someone ST doesn't want, but it won't be the same thing at all. Carroll, I don't think they'll include Poeltl to trade him for expirings. Simply put, they don't need the cap space next off-season badly enough.

I'm talking about the persistent mentality that PATFO needs to trade their bad players while hoarding their young players because of a misguided idea that the team can build around seven mediocre prospects and have a better future than just horse-whipping their current duo. They need to get significantly better, either in terms of their present of their future. Very few players on team right now are too valuable to either paradigm to hold back, but a number are so marginal that they might not be able to move the needle one way or another.

I agree. As for what I'm seeing right now, Carroll would most likely get the Spurs a Center back (Ed Davis if he goes to the Jazz, Rob Lo if it's the Bucks), so trading Poeltl for a forward would make sense if that forward is good enough to start. I'd be very interested in John Collins, as the Hawks put him on the block.

I also said in another thread that I could see something like White, Gay, Beli, Forbes and a 1st for D-Lo, Burks and Smailagic. I think the Dubs would be alright with that and it would get them under the tax. Gay and White would be valuable rotation pieces going forward and they can let Forbes and Beli walk to shed more salary or resign them with bird rights. Spurs would get a legit starting PG and a 3-and-D SG. Russell is also younger than White


Depends on the plan. I think cap space could play a major role if the goal is to really fine tune this roster around DeRozan/LMA. AT that point, being able to shed Rudy and/or Mills and/or Carroll creates an immediate path to flexibility. If Jakob is the cost of that? Better than a pick to dump those guys.

cap space won't do nothing for this team, the next free agent class is garbage and role players will get massively overpaid. Spurs need to aggressively improve the roster through trades

[DPG21920]

I agree. As for what I'm seeing right now, Carroll would most likely get the Spurs a Center back (Ed Davis if he goes to the Jazz, Rob Lo if it's the Bucks), so trading Poeltl for a forward would make sense if that forward is good enough to start. I'd be very interested in John Collins, as the Hawks put him on the block.

I also said in another thread that I could see something like White, Gay, Beli, Forbes and a 1st for D-Lo, Burks and Smailagic. I think the Dubs would be alright with that and it would get them under the tax. Gay and White would be valuable rotation pieces going forward and they can let Forbes and Beli walk to shed more salary or resign them with bird rights. Spurs would get a legit starting PG and a 3-and-D SG. Russell is also younger than White



cap space won't do nothing for this team, the next free agent class is garbage and role players will get massively overpaid. Spurs need to aggressively improve the roster through trades

Well, you can only do what you can do with what is in front of you. You can’t force trades and the assets SA has are somewhat tough unless you start talking picks and youth. SA hasn’t shown an inclination they are willing to do that.

So to me, if they “stay competitive” that means cap space and doing the best you can with flexibility (plus allowing youth to blossom). Having flexibility can mean a lot more than just signing FA as well. It opens up the path for trades being able to absorb salary etc..(which you know)

[FkLA]

If White is traded I quit.

[RC_Drunkford]

Well, you can only do what you can do with what is in front of you. You can’t force trades and the assets SA has are somewhat tough unless you start talking picks and youth. SA hasn’t shown an inclination they are willing to do that.

So to me, if they “stay competitive” that means cap space and doing the best you can with flexibility (plus allowing youth to blossom). Having flexibility can mean a lot more than just signing FA as well. It opens up the path for trades being able to absorb salary etc..(which you know)

True. But that's what I'm saying. The youth here is not a bunch of All-Stars, they are expendable if the return is right.

Like if you move Poeltl for Collins you got a super young power forward with All-Star potential locked in on a rookie deal until 2022. He could start right away at a position of need that would improve the starting line up. And he comes from a military family, so he'd fit the culture around here too. You can then flip Carroll for a back up Center.

The team would be better and you'll still have the same amount of young players going forward. If you want Russell you can ship out one of Murray/White. I think that + a draft pick and some shooters would be enough for the Dubs to bite.

D-Lo is better than Murray or White. A lot better. While also being the same age as Murray and younger than White. And he'd be a legit 3rd option next to Aldridge and DeRozan.

If you make those moves the youth remains while the team gets significantly better. The lack of aggressiveness from this FO is disturbing to me.

[mo7888]

They aren't going to trade him to get rid of Beli. That's not even an idea worth discussing. They might trade him and Beli to acquire a player they want, and that player might be someone ST doesn't want, but it won't be the same thing at all. Carroll, I don't think they'll include Poeltl to trade him for expirings. Simply put, they don't need the cap space next off-season badly enough.

I'm talking about the persistent mentality that PATFO needs to trade their bad players while hoarding their young players because of a misguided idea that the team can build around seven mediocre prospects and have a better future than just horse-whipping their current duo. They need to get significantly better, either in terms of their present of their future. Very few players on team right now are too valuable to either paradigm to hold back, but a number are so marginal that they might not be able to move the needle one way or another.

I agree with that. Cap space this offseason would be nice but it's not worth giving up real assets to acquire. I also understand that you have to give something of value to get something of value. In my businesses I do that all the time. I do implement a strategy where I try to acquire properties that I think are undervalued in the current market where I can get more out of them than others can get. As it relates to this roster I don't see anyone who should be off limits. I would just personally like to see the FO make moves that seem coherent (i.e. moves that show we have chosen a direction) where we are either cashing in assets to win now or selling established assets for young assets with the potential to mature into valuable pieces in the future.

[slick'81]

Basically. He is untouchable here with no pressure to perform. What else could he want?


Yup ,hell retire comfortably a spur and the spurs have taken care of him

[ZeusWillJudge]

Depends on the plan. I think cap space could play a major role if the goal is to really fine tune this roster around DeRozan/LMA. AT that point, being able to shed Rudy and/or Mills and/or Carroll creates an immediate path to flexibility. If Jakob is the cost of that? Better than a pick to dump those guys.


That's one hell of a post. From appearances and history, it's likely the "plan" is to stay the course and just make adjustments. If there was reason to think they would blow it up, it changes everything.

Cap space absolutely WILL play a big part. They have been in cap hell for so long, and won't get out until 21-22. But if they pay to keep DDR, Poeltl, and Forbes they will have a lot of that space committed ahead of time. You can't build a team without managing the timing of contracts along with everything else.

Personally, I don't think they can build a team around Aldridge - even partly around Aldridge. He's aging, and I believe that he will go elsewhere when this contract is up. A lot of people will scream, but the DDR we have seen for the last month is worth building around. He is what he is, and he has some holes in his game, but put the right pieces around this DeRozan and he's a strong building block. They have some good young players, but they don't have another piece ready to step up to that right now.

So I think they either have to build around DDR - which means specific pieces to complement him, or blow it up. Keeping Aldridge is self-defeating, and keeping DeRozan without the right players around him is just as bad. And since the young guys are pretty redundant, yeah, they need to be open to trading them.

[Chinook]

I agree with that. Cap space this offseason would be nice but it's not worth giving up real assets to acquire. I also understand that you have to give something of value to get something of value. In my businesses I do that all the time. I do implement a strategy where I try to acquire properties that I think are undervalued in the current market where I can get more out of them than others can get. As it relates to this roster I don't see anyone who should be off limits. I would just personally like to see the FO make moves that seem coherent (i.e. moves that show we have chosen a direction) where we are either cashing in assets to win now or selling established assets for young assets with the potential to mature into valuable pieces in the future.

Yeah, I think we'd all like to see PATFO show commitment to some plan. And it would be nice to see the front office win a trade for once that isn't the George Hill deal. I'd almost be upset if the team pulls a big move given how many games they've spent just being mediocre. I was on board with the Spurs moving some young guys last summer if it allowed them to hop up in the draft and grab a blue-chipper, I think the same principle is true for this summer, but there aren't as many candidates for such a move. An issue is that I am not sure there's a real third-piece out there now. I personally don't agree with RC_Drunkford 's evaluation of Russell. I don't want to give up real value for him. I'd almost go so far as to say I'd be more okay with getting Wiggins, given that he's way cheaper and plays a position of long-term need. There are players I'd target first, but he Spurs might be able to facilitate a Russell-to-Minny deal with just their spare parts -- and maybe even pick up an asset to boot.

[mo7888]

Yeah, I think we'd all like to see PATFO show commitment to some plan. And it would be nice to see the front office win a trade for once that isn't the George Hill deal. I'd almost be upset if the team pulls a big move given how many games they've spent just being mediocre. I was on board with the Spurs moving some young guys last summer if it allowed them to hop up in the draft and grab a blue-chipper, I think the same principle is true for this summer, but there aren't as many candidates for such a move. An issue is that I am not sure there's a real third-piece out there now. I personally don't agree with RC_Drunkford 's evaluation of Russell. I don't want to give up real value for him. I'd almost go so far as to say I'd be more okay with getting Wiggins, given that he's way cheaper and plays a position of long-term need. There are players I'd target first, but he Spurs might be able to facilitate a Russell-to-Minny deal with just their spare parts -- and maybe even pick up an asset to boot.

I'm with you on that. I'm sort of agnostic on Russell since we'd be giving up assets for someone who might not move the needle much but, he has good vision and can space the floor... just meh.... on Wiggins I think there is still some upside that's untapped but if we are getting a significant asset for taking him on I'd do that because the asset + the possibility of extracting more value than Minnesota's getting from him would be worth the risk in my book. Like you said, it wouldn't be my 1st choice to target but I'd have it in the mix.

[slick'81]

All depends on what the spurs can get for poodle. Obviously if they can attach poodle for a player they like then go for it

[DPG21920]

That's one hell of a post. From appearances and history, it's likely the "plan" is to stay the course and just make adjustments. If there was reason to think they would blow it up, it changes everything.

Cap space absolutely WILL play a big part. They have been in cap hell for so long, and won't get out until 21-22. But if they pay to keep DDR, Poeltl, and Forbes they will have a lot of that space committed ahead of time. You can't build a team without managing the timing of contracts along with everything else.

Personally, I don't think they can build a team around Aldridge - even partly around Aldridge. He's aging, and I believe that he will go elsewhere when this contract is up. A lot of people will scream, but the DDR we have seen for the last month is worth building around. He is what he is, and he has some holes in his game, but put the right pieces around this DeRozan and he's a strong building block. They have some good young players, but they don't have another piece ready to step up to that right now.

So I think they either have to build around DDR - which means specific pieces to complement him, or blow it up. Keeping Aldridge is self-defeating, and keeping DeRozan without the right players around him is just as bad. And since the young guys are pretty redundant, yeah, they need to be open to trading them.

Thanks. I am ok with what you outlined. It’s not my first choice, but I am ok with that and agree. DDR is the one to keep and if you do, you need to use LMA and other assets to shape a team around him that is much better fit.

I am good with Murray/White/DDR as 1/2/3 but the 4/5 needs a modern upgrade.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Thanks. I am ok with what you outlined. It’s not my first choice, but I am ok with that and agree. DDR is the one to keep and if you do, you need to use LMA and other assets to shape a team around him that is much better fit.

I am good with Murray/White/DDR as 1/2/3 but the 4/5 needs a modern upgrade.


You really see Murray as the 1 and White as the 2? Either way, I think one of the things this team lacks is a real PG. The strongest ball handler this team has is DDR and he's not really a setup man. He doesn't run the PnR for shit. I don't care what anyone says, a well-run PnR is still deadly effective in the modern game. Put all that together and I really think that one of White or Murray need to be one of the trade pieces.

You obviously don't think that Poeltl can be that 5. Do you think Bertans was good enough to have been the 4? And if you're going to have DDR on the floor, you have to have two good 3P shooters - preferably one of them very good. So I assume you're talking about the 4/5 being those guys? I'm just curious how you see the pieces looking.

[TimDunkem]

That 3 guard lineup isn't going to EVER work. DD needs legitimate shooters and defenders around him. He needs to be the 2 with two 3 and D guys next to him.

That means a PG that can shoot and a TRUE SF.

[objective]

If the Spurs really valued Poeltl he'd be playing more than the 15 minutes or so he's been getting.

Pop is no longer a good enough coach to find time for effective players and even worse RC and Wright probably aren't good enough to not get fleeced.

[DPG21920]

You really see Murray as the 1 and White as the 2? Either way, I think one of the things this team lacks is a real PG. The strongest ball handler this team has is DDR and he's not really a setup man. He doesn't run the PnR for shit. I don't care what anyone says, a well-run PnR is still deadly effective in the modern game. Put all that together and I really think that one of White or Murray need to be one of the trade pieces.

You obviously don't think that Poeltl can be that 5. Do you think Bertans was good enough to have been the 4? And if you're going to have DDR on the floor, you have to have two good 3P shooters - preferably one of them very good. So I assume you're talking about the 4/5 being those guys? I'm just curious how you see the pieces looking.

Yup - I am making some assumptions, but that with Murray/White/DeRozan starting that Murray/White will be good enough from 3 and the defense will fit very well. They will run and in that type of offense the playmaking is not as big of an issue. But the 4/5 need to be able to shoot. They need a legitimate talent at both positions

But to be honest, even with DDR’s play, I am not sold on building around him. I would very much prefer the rebuild route.

[DPG21920]

That 3 guard lineup isn't going to EVER work. DD needs legitimate shooters and defenders around him. He needs to be the 2 with two 3 and D guys next to him.

That means a PG that can shoot and a TRUE SF.

Murray and White have the defense covered. For sure.

I think White has proven he can shoot, he would be a tremendous secondary creator when the ball swings to him and Murray has made progress from 3.

It would be a running and transition team and the defensive potential and offensive potential with a stretch 4 (a legit one) would work really well IMO.

But yeah, there are definitely questionmarks and I’m not against trading youth for upgrades.

[TimDunkem]

Too bad DD wouldn't have the defense covered if he's playing the 3...It would definitely eventually become a problem. White or Murray/DD/unamed 3&D guy would be the best they could do with the pieces they have.

Getting a 4 to cover up for the 3 guard lineup is going to be tough. You'll probably have to give up one of those guards to get one anyway.

[DPG21920]

Too bad DD wouldn't have the defense covered if he's playing the 3...It would definitely eventually become a problem. White or Murray/DD/unamed 3&D guy would be the best they could do with the pieces they have.

Getting a 4 to cover up for the 3 guard lineup is going to be tough. You'll probably have to give up one of those guards to get one anyway.

I mean every team has defensive holes. If DeRozan is the only one? I think that could work. But again, I am not keen on building around him at all for all these reasons.

[TimDunkem]

I mean every team has defensive holes. If DeRozan is the only one? I think that could work. But again, I am not keen on building around him at all for all these reasons.

It's just my personal opinion that you need a capable defender in that spot and the Spurs should build their team differently. We can agree to disagree.

No doubt they need to upgrade the 4. Lyles will never be more than a deep bench big and Gay is just about done.

[DPG21920]

It's just my personal opinion that you need a capable defender in that spot and the Spurs should build their team differently. We can agree to disagree.

No doubt they need to upgrade the 4. Lyles will never be more than a deep bench big and Gay is just about done.

I mean, I agree with you, but if you keep DeRozan he’s 100% a 3. There is just no way around that

[TimDunkem]

I mean, I agree with you, but if you keep DeRozan he’s 100% a 3. There is just no way around that

Perhaps he should come off the bench. It's not like he's a true #1 anyway. Personally, I would trade him, but I really don't see the Spurs doing that.

[DPG21920]

Perhaps he should come off the bench. It's not like he's a true #1 anyway. Personally, I would trade him, but I really don't see the Spurs doing that.

I think his contract is an issue (the fact it’s only one year basically). I can see them trading him this summer via sign and trade

[JeffDuncan]

I think his contract is an issue (the fact it’s only one year basically). I can see them trading him this summer via sign and trade


How would you do that? DDR has a player option for $27.7 million. How do you plan to persuade him in favor of an s-and-t? Then, how do you convince anybody that he's worth more than $27.7 mil?

[monty4329]

How would you do that? DDR has a player option for $27.7 million. How do you plan to persuade him in favor of an s-and-t? Then, how do you convince anybody that he's worth more than $27.7 mil?

opts out and s+t at 17/per on a 3+1, half the league would be interested

[tbdog]

He opens up more doors to more teams if he agrees on S&T.

[JuneJive]

No way he's traded.

Let's move on to more realistic scenarios.

[Prime BEEF]

No way he's traded.

Let's move on to more realistic scenarios.
If you’re going to invoke realistic outcomes then you’re not allowed to talk about any trade at all. The spurs aren’t going to make any trades.

[DPG21920]

How would you do that? DDR has a player option for $27.7 million. How do you plan to persuade him in favor of an s-and-t? Then, how do you convince anybody that he's worth more than $27.7 mil?

Well yeah. If he opts out this Summer it’s because he thinks he will get a large deal (he will). So it makes no difference to him. He can get as much in a S&T as he can in free agency so it makes a lot of sense.

He will still get to choose his team.

[DPG21920]

He opens up more doors to more teams if he agrees on S&T.

Exactly.

[JeffDuncan]

Well yeah. If he opts out this Summer ...



Then he's out $27.7 million.

Who is going to pay him more?

Name that team.

[JeffDuncan]

opts out and s+t at 17/per on a 3+1, half the league would be interested


Your scenario is that he turns down $27.7 million so that he can make $17 mil. You sure about that?

[DPG21920]

Then he's out $27.7 million.

Who is going to pay him more?

Name that team.

It’s not just about the annual number, it’s about guaranteed money.

I can see SA themselves paying him 3/75M. But it’s hard to project exactly who will have cap space right now because there are a lot of variables. But Miami and Detroit are two East teams that have a path to max contracts and would be suitors (already linked to DeRozan via trade) that make a lot of sense.

[DPG21920]

Your scenario is that he turns down $27.7 million so that he can make $17 mil. You sure about that?

He’s not making 17M. He’s making 17 x 4 so his guaranteed money is far greater than the 27M he has now.

[JeffDuncan]

It’s not just about the annual number, it’s about guaranteed money.



DDR is guaranteed $27.7 million simply by signing that player option.



I can see SA themselves paying him 3/75M. ...



Not next year they won't. He won't sign for $25 per when he can get $27.7 next season, because he would instantly lose $2.7 million.

Or do you plan to get fancy in structuring that?




But it’s hard to project exactly who will have cap space right now ...



The necessary details are all a matter of public record in connection with ensuring that the CBA is enforced.

It would take some work, which I do not blame you for not wanting to do.



... But Miami and Detroit are two East teams that have a path to max contracts and would be suitors (already linked to DeRozan via trade) that make a lot of sense.


You think Miami or Detroit or whoever will trust the Spurs to create a contract with DDR that they will then have to accept? Why would they trust the Spurs that much? Would you trust the current Spurs organization that much?

I also can't help being a little curious why you think DDR is worth a max contract. What's your reasoning there?

[JeffDuncan]

He’s not making 17M. He’s making 17 x 4 so his guaranteed money is far greater than the 27M he has now.


You really do think he'd turn down $27.7 to make 17. You have an active imagination.

All you've done with that is to tell him that in two years you think he'll be worth 17 per. His agent will file that info. He'll sign the player option for 27.7, then the next summer he'll come back to you, and say, ok, now that that's done we can talk about the 17 per.

You didn't realize that.

[TimDunkem]

Well, shit, if we're certain that he is picking up his option then that makes him very tradeable. The issue with most teams who would take him is that they're not sure that he will.

[monty4329]

Your scenario is that he turns down $27.7 million so that he can make $17 mil. You sure about that?

For 4 yrs, mind. At his age I think he would consider it. In summer 21, with several high caliber FAs on the market, how much could he realistically ask for? More than 17/3? Maybe but it is not a small gamble. Players his age always look for extensions, longer contracts.

You maybe right and he just opts in hoping to have a great season nd score a 22/3 the following summer. If he gets injured though, look at IT.

[MultiTroll]

Well, shit, if we're certain that he is picking up his option then that makes him very tradeable. The issue with most teams who would take him is that they're not sure that he will.
Want to win right now and need scorer is gonna be the only takers imo.
Like Houston but no room with Beard and Westchuck.
Heat? Riley not gonna get snookered by Light Years Behind Pop.

Probably a moot point. Popped is sticking with his pet team as is. Except Carrol must have made some *outspoken Black man* comment to Lord Poppycock. Even then, rather then trade him will continue to *punish* by sitting on the bench in street clothes.

[JeffDuncan]

Well, shit, if we're certain that he is picking up his option ...



Nobody will be certain of that until DDR either signs the paperwork, or doesn't sign it.

[DPG21920]

DDR is guaranteed $27.7 million simply by signing that player option.




Not next year they won't. He won't sign for $25 per when he can get $27.7 next season, because he would instantly lose $2.7 million.

Or do you plan to get fancy in structuring that?





The necessary details are all a matter of public record in connection with ensuring that the CBA is enforced.

It would take some work, which I do not blame you for not wanting to do.




You think Miami or Detroit or whoever will trust the Spurs to create a contract with DDR that they will then have to accept? Why would they trust the Spurs that much? Would you trust the current Spurs organization that much?

I also can't help being a little curious why you think DDR is worth a max contract. What's your reasoning there?

:lol I have no patience for this and that is saying something

[DPG21920]

You really do think he'd turn down $27.7 to make 17. You have an active imagination.

All you've done with that is to tell him that in two years you think he'll be worth 17 per. His agent will file that info. He'll sign the player option for 27.7, then the next summer he'll come back to you, and say, ok, now that that's done we can talk about the 17 per.

You didn't realize that.

Yeah. That’s it. I didn’t realize that. Thank you for truly educating me. I feel like my eyes are open for the first time and I am seeing the nba in a fresh new light.

I am not saying I think he would take 17M; I was discussing the logic (regardless of the number) as to why DeRozan would opt out.

[TimDunkem]

Nobody will be certain of that until DDR either signs the paperwork, or doesn't sign it.

I think he takes his chances in FA this year if the Spurs don't extend or sign and trade. He's set to be the biggest player in the market (AD is staying in LA).

[JeffDuncan]

For 4 yrs, mind. At his age I think he would consider it. In summer 21, wi
th several high caliber FAs on the market, how much could he realistically ask for? More than 17/3? Cap is already shrinking slightly.


DDR will not turn down 27.7 to make 17. Get over that childish foolishness.

He'll just come back to you the next year, after he gets the 27.7, and tell you, now we can talk about that 17 as a starting point.

[TimDunkem]

He might take a cut to resign on a longer deal but, yeah, it wont be for 17 per.

[SpurSpike]

I guess we don't have to worry about a Peoltl trade to Atlanta anymore so that's good.

[monty4329]

DDR will not turn down 27.7 to make 17. Get over that childish foolishness.

He'll just come back to you the next year, after he gets the 27.7, and tell you, now we can talk about that 17 as a starting point.

As I said, you might be right. Let's then childishly check his next contract in 2 yrs from now.

[slick'81]

As I said, you might be right. Let's then childishly check his next contract in 2 yrs from now.


Hes not taking 17 bro

[TD 21]

Ugh. You don't trade away players because they're bad. You trade for players/assets you need. The Spurs trading Poeltl or any other player folks like isn't them punishing him or saying they prefer to keep Forbes or whatever. It's them saying that they really needed that return and the player was the best way to get it. It's possible that Jakob is the only player teams are willing to offer an okay first for. If the Spurs are rebuilding, then it doesn't matter that Poeltl is a serviceable young big. If they are still trying to make a run, it's only going to happen because LMA plays out of his mind. In either event, you can justify using him as part of the package. That doesn't mean that there aren't trades that wouldn't make sense or that PATFO wouldn't make a bad trade. But everyone on the roster is available for the right deal, not just fucking Beli and Forbes and Carroll.

That said, I'm not a fan of trading for Russell, and he's the only possible target I've heard. I just don't think he's good enough. But I could see GS loving Poeltl enough to want him to be part of a Russell package, and that might give SA leverage to grab something of decent value from the team that actually acquires DAR like Covington, Culver, Winslow or Herro. If it's one the young wings, I could totally understand it, because the none of the young players is performing well enough to preclude the team acquiring someone at their position. I could see something like Poeltl and a top-10 protected first for Culver being a legit move to get top talent, and if it causes the team to fall apart and get their own top-10 pick, then the club could add much higher upside guys than just a solidly above-average but low-minute center.

That's the thing though, no one is offering an okay 1st for Poeltl or a wing prospect, in his rookie season, that was recently picked high in the lottery (I was never high on Culver, but still).

Despite the gap in pedigree and perception, I actually think Capela and Poeltl are similar caliber, but those two things often play a role, yet despite the hype the former has garnered in recent season, all he went for is the Nets 1st, which is effectively a midround pick.

This is likely nothing more than the league seeing the Spurs as an easy mark and seeing if they can steal one of the few valuable players they have for pennies.

[MultiTroll]

Despite the gap in pedigree and perception, I actually think Capela and Poeltl are similar caliber,
Hard to say given the misfit team(s) they have both had to play for. Capella seems more upside to me. Looking fwd to see what he can do with ATL.

[sasaint]

That's the thing though, no one is offering an okay 1st for Poeltl or a wing prospect, in his rookie season, that was recently picked high in the lottery (I was never high on Culver, but still).

Despite the gap in pedigree and perception, I actually think Capela and Poeltl are similar caliber, but those two things often play a role, yet despite the hype the former has garnered in recent season, all he went for is the Nets 1st, which is effectively a midround pick.

This is likely nothing more than the league seeing the Spurs as an easy mark and seeing if they can steal one of the few valuable players they have for pennies.

I root for Texas Tech, and I would love to see their guys succeed in the NBA. Truth be told, however, Culver has a game about like Dumbmar's. Perhaps he could become a 3-point threat with Chip's help (and he isn't totally unwilling like Dumbmar), but I am not very high on the guy, either. He is another combo guard, which we don't need.

[Chinook]

I root for Texas Tech, and I would love to see their guys succeed in the NBA. Truth be told, however, Culver has a game about like Dumbmar's. Perhaps he could become a 3-point threat with Chip's help (and he isn't totally unwilling like Dumbmar), but I am not very high on the guy, either. He is another combo guard, which we don't need.

The team needs combo-guards until they actually have good ones. Like it's fine to not like Culver specifically, but if the team is rebuilding, the last thing on their minds should be their positional roster needs when it comes to prospects.

[Down Under]

Yeah. That’s it. I didn’t realize that. Thank you for truly educating me. I feel like my eyes are open for the first time and I am seeing the nba in a fresh new light.

I am not saying I think he would take 17M; I was discussing the logic (regardless of the number) as to why DeRozan would opt out.
You wonder why this board has turned into 5 people with 5 burners each, shouting into an echo chamber with each other :facepalm

[Down Under]

Poeltl is getting paid. He plays by far the most important defensive position & is a Centre who can ANCHOR a defense, of which there aren't a lot in the NBA.

[sasaint]

The team needs combo-guards until they actually have good ones. Like it's fine to not like Culver specifically, but if the team is rebuilding, the last thing on their minds should be their positional roster needs when it comes to prospects.

I disagree. If you are tanking, then, sure just accumulate assets. But if you are rebuilding, then position definitely counts.

[Chinook]

I disagree. If you are tanking, then, sure just accumulate assets. But if you are rebuilding, then position definitely counts.
No, it doesn't. You don't pass up on elite talent because you already have mediocre prospects playing the same position. Like I get not thinking Culver is an elite talent. That's fine. I don't know enough about him to really have my own opinion. But if, for example, the Spurs get the second-overall pick in the draft and Wiseman goes first, the team should take one of the PGs at the top of the draft and tell Murray et al to go fuck themselves if they don't like it.

[sasaint]

No, it doesn't. You don't pass up on elite talent because you already have mediocre prospects playing the same position. Like I get not thinking Culver is an elite talent. That's fine. I don't know enough about him to really have my own opinion. But if, for example, the Spurs get the second-overall pick in the draft and Wiseman goes first, the team should take one of the PGs at the top of the draft and tell Murray et al to go fuck themselves if they don't like it.

Friend, I thought the conversation was about Culver, specifically. Hell, I'd be happy to take George Hill back if there was some way to get him.

[Chinook]

Friend, I thought the conversation was about Culver, specifically. Hell, I'd be happy to take George Hill back if there was some way to get him.

We were talking about whether one should care about positional distribution when rebuilding. I gave a different example since I didn't want to obscure the main point with him. I think if the Spurs like Culver and think he's a legit talent, then they should acquire him if they can do so by giving up lesser assets. Of course, this whole Culver thing is just made up by me. There's no news about him. Anyways, if they don't think he's an elite talent, there's no reason to trade for him at all. But if they do, then it doesn't matter that he plays the same position as White and Murray, because those guys definitely aren't elite talents.

[sasaint]

We were talking about whether one should care about positional distribution when rebuilding. I gave a different example since I didn't want to obscure the main point with him. I think if the Spurs like Culver and think he's a legit talent, then they should acquire him if they can do so by giving up lesser assets. Of course, this whole Culver thing is just made up by me. There's no news about him. Anyways, if they don't think he's an elite talent, there's no reason to trade for him at all. But if they do, then it doesn't matter that he plays the same position as White and Murray, because those guys definitely aren't elite talents.

OK, I agree with your general strategic premise, but Culver is not the elite talent for its tactical application.

[JeffDuncan]

Yeah. That’s it. I didn’t realize that. ...



Yes, I noticed you didn't realize that, which is why I pointed it out to you. You're welcome, even if you are an ungrateful goof.



I am not saying I think he would take 17M; I was discussing the logic (regardless of the number) as to why DeRozan would opt out.


Yes you did think that, you dope. You thought if you waved a multi-year contract in front of his nose, you could sneak it by him that you were ripping him off for more than $10 mil the first year. ROFL!! No way, kid.

The possibilities for DDR are:

1. He'll take the player option, and stay with the Spurs. Because...
1.a. he's in love with the Spurs organization. (doubtful)
1.b. he likes losing. (doubtful)
1.c. it's the most money he can get. (more likely)

2. He'll decline the player option. Because...
2.a. he's offered more money elsewhere. (doubtful)
2.b. he'd rather be with a winner. (more likely)

If he gets what he considers to be a reasonable offer from a winning team, he's gone. If not, he stays.

[Thomas82]

Yeah, I think we'd all like to see PATFO show commitment to some plan. And it would be nice to see the front office win a trade for once that isn't the George Hill deal. I'd almost be upset if the team pulls a big move given how many games they've spent just being mediocre. I was on board with the Spurs moving some young guys last summer if it allowed them to hop up in the draft and grab a blue-chipper, I think the same principle is true for this summer, but there aren't as many candidates for such a move. An issue is that I am not sure there's a real third-piece out there now. I personally don't agree with RC_Drunkford 's evaluation of Russell. I don't want to give up real value for him. I'd almost go so far as to say I'd be more okay with getting Wiggins, given that he's way cheaper and plays a position of long-term need. There are players I'd target first, but he Spurs might be able to facilitate a Russell-to-Minny deal with just their spare parts -- and maybe even pick up an asset to boot.

[JeffDuncan]

I think he takes his chances in FA this year if the Spurs don't extend or sign and trade. He's set to be the biggest player in the market (AD is staying in LA).


DDR and his agent will survey the FA market for an estimate of his value, of course. It's safe to surmise that DDR will be especially interested in a chance to join a winner.

The Spurs would be idiots to offer DDR an extension, since they're scheduled to have so much salary come off the books in the summer of '21 that it's effectively a blow up, and a chance to start fresh. They're in line to have $120 million available, if they don't throw it away on nonsense. The team needs a chance to move on from the mess we see this season, and may see again next season.

DDR's desirability will depend on teams being willing to take on a 2pt shooter. As we speak, DDR is costing himself millions by not shooting 3s. He is maybe not very bright.

[sasaint]

DDR and his agent will survey the FA market for an estimate of his value, of course. It's safe to surmise that DDR will be especially interested in a chance to join a winner.

The Spurs would be idiots to offer DDR an extension, since they're scheduled to have so much salary come off the books in the summer of '21 that it's effectively a blow up, and a chance to start fresh. They're in line to have $120 million available, if they don't throw it away on nonsense. The team needs a chance to move on from the mess we see this season, and may see again next season.

DDR's desirability will depend on teams being willing to take on a 2pt shooter. As we speak, DDR is costing himself millions by not shooting 3s. He is maybe not very bright.

Spurs should move him NOW. But more importantly, do you want PATFO handling the personnel decisions for $120MM in cap space - like you said, assuming they don't throw it away?

[JeffDuncan]

Spurs should move him NOW. ...



The problem is, as always, to whom? Who's going to take DDR's contract? Not to belabor the obvious, but it takes two to trade.



But more importantly, do you want PATFO handling the personnel decisions for $120MM in cap space - like you said, assuming they don't throw it away?


I hope the Olympics will be Pop's farewell, so the Spurs will have both a new head coach, and a new president of basketball next season. That would give the new personnel a season to assess the situation, and prepare for the summer of '21. The way the mess is, it might take a whole season to get it sorted. So no, I wouldn't trust the current personnel with that kind of windfall. I'd fear more of the same, at an even higher cost.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

We had 2 lifers for over 35 years. Oberto was for all practical purposes. Splitter, too; he was shot when we traded him to Atlanta.

Yes.

[rudwick]

Spurs should move him NOW. But more importantly, do you want PATFO handling the personnel decisions for $120MM in cap space - like you said, assuming they don't throw it away?

Wow, that’s exciting! How many more Demarre Carrolls can they get with that?