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Marcus Bryant
07-16-2003, 05:27 PM
Same old crap. Spurs make a play to add another major talent to the one they just re-signed, again, and Spurs fans complain. Why? Because they are whiney ass bitches who have been spoiled by the success of this team. When they aren't briefly mollified by a NBA Championship they will then return to their well established ways. You guys are such children. Grow the **** up.

ducks
07-16-2003, 05:29 PM
no mb spurs fans are suppose to party when a tier one says **** the spurs

Marcus Bryant
07-16-2003, 05:30 PM
No ducks everything doesn't go always right for the Spurs and they can't always control that. Understand? It really isn't hard. Don't you think that if all that Pop had to do is snap his fingers and that makes a free agent sign he would've done it already? Get a damn clue.

T Park Num 9
07-16-2003, 05:31 PM
preach on mb,


the bitchers championship champagne has worn off and they are back into pop sucks blow up the team form again.

MissAllThat
07-16-2003, 05:32 PM
LOL MB. I'm happy. We got the best FA out there, and he didn't even consider another team before deciding to stay with us. How many teams can say that about the players they got?

Shelly
07-16-2003, 05:32 PM
Believe

Adrienne18
07-16-2003, 05:33 PM
Boys, you don't want me to sing the Barney Theme song again, do you?

Marcus Bryant
07-16-2003, 05:34 PM
...while butt naked covered in whipped cream? Sure....on Sunday. :smokin

scott
07-16-2003, 05:34 PM
If it will make us feel any better... Jim Daniels thinks that Rasho is a good pick up. He says Rasho would improve greatly playing "in the shadow" of Tim Duncan.

Adrienne18
07-16-2003, 05:41 PM
Well Marcus, on Sunday I'll still be 17 and you could get arrested...lol

Marcus Bryant
07-16-2003, 05:42 PM
No thanks. Get back to me when you can get into the game. I don't play that like Karl Malone and Kolby.

Ghost Writer
07-16-2003, 05:44 PM
Fvck you, Marcus.

Spurs fans have every right to be disappointed with Nesterovic being the result of the much balleyhooed Holt-ing Pattern.

Don't tell us how to think, act or feel.

We don't all go and get a homer labotomy every time a major letdown happens.


:cooldevil

Shelly
07-16-2003, 05:44 PM
:rolleyes

What did Malone do?

T Park Num 9
07-16-2003, 05:46 PM
The FA period is over???


Wow July August September and october sure went by fast.


WTF?

Marcus Bryant
07-16-2003, 05:47 PM
Suck a dick Ghost. You bitch about anything, including a "boring" team that just won a championship, chump.

If you hate this team so, why the **** are you a fan? Dumbass.

Ghost Writer
07-16-2003, 05:52 PM
STFU, Marcus.

I tell it like it is.

Playing in the shadow of Tim Duncan should be a draw to free agents.

Change most of the NBA community's minds about the perception of San Antonio. Take issue with them thinkin gSan Antonio is lame and the team's style of play is bland. That's not my problem, pal.

Don't act like we as fans don't have a right toi express disappointment in having everything to offer a star free agent and still getting snubbed once again.

:cooldevil

bigzak25
07-16-2003, 05:59 PM
who did we lose out on that wanted to be a spur...:wtf

Ghost Writer
07-16-2003, 06:05 PM
That's the point, zak. Only Rasho actually wanted to be a Spurs despite everything we had to offer.

Disgusting.


:cooldevil

T Park Num 9
07-16-2003, 06:08 PM
and that is pop and the organizations fault how.................

CrazyOne
07-16-2003, 06:15 PM
It's not disgusting... it just shows that the big egos need the strokes that come from being the big fish, even in the puddle known as the Eastern Conference. Frankly, we're probably better off not getting players who don't want to play in Tim's shadow.
Kidd didn't quite fit well, but it hurt more to lose J O'Neal. You can make a great pitch to the big fish, but it's real hard to get them to jump out of the home bowl (like Tim in Orlando).

It ain't quite over yet, no need to stock up on the grape koolaid.

P.S. to Adrienne - tell folks you're from Farmers Branch or Garland, then they won't give you as much grief as being from Dallas.

Ghost Writer
07-16-2003, 06:19 PM
I never said it was Pop's or the Spurs' fault. Funny how you guys went there first.

It's disgusting that these free agents won't come to the Spurs for all the right reasons.

Money. A chance to win. Warm weather. No income tax. New arena and practice facility.

I mean, what the fvck?!?


:cooldevil

kohai
07-16-2003, 06:21 PM
I mean, what the fvck?!?

I agree. SOME would act like this is the front office's fault. They can't hold a gun to these guys' heads and MAKE them sign. All they can do is get themselves into the best position possible, and they did.

Ghost Writer
07-16-2003, 06:24 PM
That's why it is imperative to make trades. We should've been doing that instead of clearing cap space. Unless the star has a no-trade clause, they must play for us.


:cooldevil

bigzak25
07-16-2003, 06:26 PM
well, if no FA's want to be spurs,:depressed

then the choice seems obvious,
lock up clax and jax and call it an offseason......

i didn't watch spree at all last year....does he still have gas in the tank?

i'll give you credit for seeing this lack of fa interest in san antonio ghost. but it's dissapointing as hell....

that being said, this squad one 9 in a row on the road without robinson last year...and it's great to be THE TOP TEAM in the nba.

we wouldn't be the Spurs if we weren't the underdogs.

Ghost Writer
07-16-2003, 06:28 PM
The time to have traded for Payton or Sprewell was two years ago. Now, Parker and Ginobili show more viability for the future.




:cooldevil

kohai
07-16-2003, 06:51 PM
Ghost - I have to disagree. I think you HAVE to take your shot at the FAs. The younger players working out was just icing on the cake.

Admiral
07-16-2003, 07:19 PM
Is it just me, or does Marcus start one of these threads blasting Spurs fans at least three times a week? :sleep

Stop acting like some of us are blaming the front office, Marcus. We know the Spurs tried, and are still trying, but the bottom line is that they have nothing to show for it. As many of us have asked for two years now, "Can Cap Space in 2003 play center?"

If the fact that the Spurs "tried their best" makes you sleep better at night, good for you. The rest of us will realistically admit that this summer has sucked so far and hope that it turns out better. I have confidence in the front office that it will.

kohai
07-16-2003, 07:23 PM
The rest of us will realistically admit that this summer has sucked so far and hope that it turns out better. I have confidence in the front office that it will.

I think you are probably not his "target" audinece, then.

gospurs21
07-16-2003, 07:33 PM
ok GW I'll byte.

Since we are past the payton and artest trades, and FA is not yeilding anything, who can the Spurs trade for to bring 2nd star next to Tim?

Who do we have to give up?

I promise not to bitch...just wanna know what you think.

or
Who is untouchable, who is tradeable?

Go Spurs...

GrandeDavid
07-16-2003, 09:17 PM
Shit, I haven't even been back in San Antonio since Game 4 of the Finals! To me, at least, the party will start again when I get back to town in August. We need to gloat until we are dethroned, folks.

TwoHandJam
07-16-2003, 10:02 PM
If the fact that the Spurs "tried their best" makes you sleep better at night, good for you. The rest of us will realistically admit that this summer has sucked so far and hope that it turns out better. I have confidence in the front office that it will.

Well put Admiral. I feel much the same way. Not getting Brand really took the wind out of my sails as I was really looking forward to him at least signing our offer sheet. Alas, it was not meant to be.

I can only hope now that the Donald matches to **** over that bastard Riley. :flipoff

So fucking disappointing. :cuss :depressed

SpursWoman
07-16-2003, 10:09 PM
Stop acting like some of us are blaming the front office


Admiral, have you read any of the posts around here? Been in most chats? I've seen quite a few who blame this entirely on Pop & RC (ie: The Front Office) and what they did or didn't do. That they were somehow lax in their pursuit of these free agents.

Most rational people should understand that they could only do so much, if the FA's didn't want to be here they weren't going to sign. Period. But not everyone is rational when they are disappointed.

T Park Num 9
07-16-2003, 10:21 PM
dont think Pop and RC are busting there asses for these guys.

Robert Horry saying that the Spurs want to talk to him is VERY encouraging.

I like RObert Horry, hopefully the SPurs can convince a Pippen to sign, hed be a HUGE signing IMO!!

RuffnReadyOzStyle
07-16-2003, 10:46 PM
I'm extremely disappointed in our off-season, but I don't blame the Spurs at all - I blame the stupidity of FAs!!! As GW spelled out, we have it all to offer and they all ignored us (except Rasho)... WTFWTFWTFWTFWTF?????????????

I still think we'll contend next year because Tony, Manu and Jax are gonna get better, but by Heyzeus I'm disappointed in JK/JO/EB, none of whom want to play in the NBAs best situation - what are you guys, farkin nuts???

Anyway, we'll be okay.

Just pray for Odom!

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-16-2003, 10:47 PM
I don't doubt for a minute that Pop and RC were busting their asses, I guess I just wonder (part of the post-mortem evaluation) if we could have done something different.

For example, a big deal was made about that whole "Pop won't have some big show for the free agents, we'll just bring them in, keep it low key, and get to know them" plan of attack in the media.

It has become (and truthfully probably was ahead of time) that a lot of these guys want to see their name in lights, they want the city to roll out the red carpet, put on it's best face, and say let's party.

Where do you think the free agent is more likely to go? SA after going over and playing Pictionary at Pop's place, or for example Miami after going out and hitting all the clubs and wandering among the topless beauties on South Beach the next day?

I realize that we like being low key and the Spurs do as well, but when you're whining and dining the FAs you need to hand over the hosting itinerary to SJax and let him get them fucked up out on the town and have a good time.

AHF

Dunkel Weizen
07-16-2003, 11:33 PM
I believe what neither we nor Pop nor RC understood is where winning actually falls among most NBA players' priorities.

Apparently it's somewhere between endorsement money and golf.

Maybe that's why the level of play isn't what it used to be.

I don't know why I'm surprised by this. The kids don't leave school early to get a headstart on winning a championship.

Ghost Writer
07-17-2003, 10:40 AM
gospurs, quite frankly, no one is untouchable outside of Tim Duncan in a trade.

Obviously our most tradeable commodities are Parker and Ginobili.

I think Rose and Bowen are more expendable than those two players.

Speedy Claxton could be used in asign-and-trade.

And we still have $8 million worth of cap space to float at other teams.

I would see what the Hawks are planning to do with Abdur-Rahim or Terry.

I'd give Jerry West a call and see who he wants for Gasol or Swift.

Do we dare inquire about Rasheed Wallace's availability?

Trades guarantee you talent. Players have no choice but to play for us via a trade.




:cooldevil

bigzak25
07-17-2003, 11:04 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

totally agree with those choices there ghostman.....

It's hard to imagine Pop parting with his guys though...Bowen, Malik......Bowen is our best on ball defenders...and not just our best...but one of the best in the league...and malik...he's played instrumental roles in both our championships....his hustle...he now has a jumpshot that other teams need to respect....

i say screw it....if the spurs gotta win with our guys, then lets win with our guys...i don't want any trades to go down short of the speedy s&t. And that's only if speedy absolutely has his heart set on playing east....otherwise, I want him back too....i'm all for pippen, horry, whoever...wants to be a spur, play some D and hit some threes....

go spurs man....

gospurs21
07-17-2003, 11:05 AM
thanks for your responce

I like Adur-Rahim, but he seems a little over priced, maybe not now since we have so much cap room, for Malik and S/T Speedy, plus 2 2nd picks maybe?

Sheed, while his skills are prett decent, I just don't see him fitting in with the whole TEAM concept.

Gasol and Swift...I think the book is still out on both these guys, I would wait for one more year of seasoning before making a move on either one.

I would let go of Rose, before Bowen. Bowen is here for one major reason...to guard Krybe. Until someone else in the league does a better job, I can't see giving that up for anything other than top 15 player

Go Spurs...

Admiral
07-17-2003, 02:18 PM
Most rational people should understand that they could only do so much, if the FA's didn't want to be here they weren't going to sign. Period. -SpursWoman

And that is exactly the problem, SpursWoman. Relying on free agency forces the Spurs to relinquish control to the free agents. Yeah, we can make a good presentation, show off our new practice facility and arena, etc., but the free agents are the ones who decide. That is a HUGE risk to take, especially when you make the decision to wait two years on it.

Was it worth the risk? Based on who we've signed so far, I'm not so sure it was.

Ghost Writer
07-17-2003, 02:34 PM
Imagine if we weren't the only healhty Western powerhouse this playoffs. We probbaly wouldn't have won.

And now imagine the backlash if we waited two years for Nesterovic.


:cooldevil

ducks
07-17-2003, 02:38 PM
yeah the spurs should have an asterick because dirk got hurt in game

please


injuries are part of the game

if duncan was healthy the spurs could have repated to. so should that season not count eith er because a nba player was hurt ?

Adrienne18
07-17-2003, 02:39 PM
Ghost, assuming you're serious...I think the Spurs would have won no matter what. The Kings are good, but the Spurs are a better team, period. The Lakers were just plain done, it wasn't gonna happen for them this year no matter who they played I don't think, Shaq didn't care and the bench wasn't producing (not just a matter of injuries, NO ONE was producing, not even Fox or George really before they got hurt). The Mavs were never expecting to get that far, and weren't prepared, and were just worn out anyway after two series stretched to seven. Even if they all would have been healthy, the Spurs were just playing the best...you don't want to put an asterisk on your own title, do you?:wink

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 03:03 PM
I think SA is just fine right now. We ned a backup pointguard, but othet than that, we are still the team to beat. Spurs are #1 and will continue to be.

gospurs21
07-17-2003, 03:17 PM
GW,
gotta go with Adrienne on this one. Even if all teams: suns, lakers, sac, mavs stayed healthy SA still wins the title. They were just too much of a team to lose.

Stop with the ifs and buts to justify you're "holting pattern failed because all we got was Rasho" propaganda bullshit. It has already become old and tired, kinda like you.

You really should think about becoming a portland or la fan. Those are the only teams that seem to do what you want a basketball team to do. Or is it you really like pissing off SA fans?

Enough already, please

Go Spurs...

sportcamper1
07-17-2003, 03:21 PM
Welllll…..I am not buying this 17 year old diva stuff…you know too much about NBA basketball…I think you are a man…man…

http://www.ukthing.net/soundboards/graphics/austin.gif

Adrienne18
07-17-2003, 03:23 PM
Haha, believe me, I'm not a man....I just watch a whole friggin lot of basketball, and was a cheerleader for my hs basketball team...friends with the whole basketball team...basically I think it, dream it, breathe it.:wink (This is, of course, assuming you were referring to me...as I don't know of any other 17 year old girls with the title "diva" in here...)

sportcamper1
07-17-2003, 03:31 PM
17/18 years olds need to be at the beach, playing volleyball….

So do you think that signing really old players like Karl Malone is a smart strategy for the Lakers to avoid sex scandals? :lol

Adrienne18
07-17-2003, 03:33 PM
Beach? What beach? I live in Dallas, maybe I could go to Lake Texoma...good idea really, I go to the pool almost every day but its crowded...hmm...

Karl Malone? Sex scandal? It's weird to even hear that in the same sentence. Possibly...but if Kobe's guilty...shame shame...

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 03:34 PM
Why do you have the number 18 in your title if you are 17? What does the 18 signify? How many times you have been proposed to? How many games you have attended? Your waist size? You shoe size, heaven forbid? I am intrigued here Adrienne.....:)

Adrienne18
07-17-2003, 03:35 PM
Well, I'll be 18 a week from Sunday...I've been proposed to once seriously, a few times jokingly, my waist size is none of yo business;), I wear size 6 1/2 shoes, not 18, and I've been to just five or 6 games (hard to get tickets)...

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 03:37 PM
Hey Camper, we do not all live on the freakin ocean, like you LA types. We are in Texas, where it is 189 degrees in the shade....where real men reside, not namby pamby men like in LA. :)

sportcamper1
07-17-2003, 03:37 PM
It was a joke…. I meant because Karl Malone was too old to get into trouble….

I mean maybe he could go drink some geritol with Kevin Willis but that is about it…

CosmicCowboyXXX
07-17-2003, 03:38 PM
run for your life Adrienne!

that "warning a sex offender lives here" sign facing the 7th green on the golf course in College Station was placed there in Jims honor...:lol

Adrienne18
07-17-2003, 03:39 PM
yeah, sportcamper, i knew you were joking, and so was i

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 03:40 PM
Well then you should be Adrienne17and9/10 then...you are jumping the gun.:)

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 03:42 PM
CC, I live on the 16th hole, not the 7th....but you are right, I am a pervert.:)

Adrienne18
07-17-2003, 03:42 PM
What can I say? I'm excited, I'll be legal....I'll be able to...vote...


Now back to sports...

sportcamper1
07-17-2003, 03:42 PM
Hello Dr. Jim…. Unfortunately I am almost 20 miles from the ocean & it has been about 110 degrees this week…

My yard work has been piling up and if not for my personal hero “Dusty Baker”, I am afraid that I would have no excuse to put it off, till things cool down… :lol

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 03:43 PM
You'll be able to go out with men from College Station.....:lol

KoriEllis
07-17-2003, 03:46 PM
Just a reminder, if you guys want to socialize with Adrienne, there's about 10 threads in the Club to do that right now.

This is the Spurs Forum.

Adrienne18
07-17-2003, 03:48 PM
Sorry Kori, the "back to sports" comment was my feeble attempt...

Ghost Writer
07-17-2003, 03:50 PM
Put it this way, floks:

The Vegas oddsmakers did not have the Spurs the favorites to win the title with Fox, Webber and Nowitski all healthy.

Take off the Malik Rose-colored sglasses, peeps.

Winning the title takes the sting out of a failed Holt-ing Pattern.


:cooldevil

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 03:55 PM
Ghost, you are right, Vegas is always right. They picked the Angels last year in MLB, the Spurs in the NBA, and they had the last two Super Bowl champs pegged in the preseason too....not to mention the Devils in Hockey......and your point still is Ghost????

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 03:58 PM
Kori, sorry if I waxed rhapsodic there....CC and Camper started it.:)

ducks
07-17-2003, 04:00 PM
so why bother play if the games if vegas is always right.

kings should have won it all in the past. most talented team but the games are played on the court not in vegas.

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 04:05 PM
Ducks, I was being sarcastic,,,,Vegas has not picked any champes in the preseason in quite some time(Lakers were only one in last 5 yrs in any sport)

Adrienne18
07-17-2003, 04:30 PM
Jim, Ducks, I agree with both of you...I don't really think there is a way to predict for sure, on paper means nothing if you don't have the heart or the will, plus there are always circumstances...injuries, players emotions...that can change outcomes. THAT is why I think it's ridiculous that people are crowning the Lakers already.

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 04:37 PM
Adrienne, I am not ready to concede any title to LA. Number one, I think they have too many stars, and two, I think Kobe has some problems that might knock him out for next season or longer.

Ghost Writer
07-17-2003, 04:43 PM
My point is, Jimmy, everything lined up right for the Spurs in the playoffs.

Imagine if we didn't win how pissed you'd be right now.


:cooldevil

Adrienne18
07-17-2003, 04:44 PM
I didn't mean you, I meant analysts, sportscasters, people like that.

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 04:50 PM
Ghost, I have been disappointed so many times after each NBA season and NFL season, I would have been over it long ago. No team can win the championship year after year...we all have our ups and downs. My point is, our team has had a great product for 80% of its seasons, compare that to other cities. Did you know that SA has the 3rd highest winning percentage in NBA history as a franchise? We Spurs fans have been blessed to have this team to follow over the years, and if we do not win it all, so beit. They are still great enetertainment to watch, and that is why we watch this silly game, right?

Ghost Writer
07-17-2003, 05:39 PM
Did you know that we were clearing cap space for the past two seasons to bring in a star this summer, Jim?







Question.


:cooldevil

gospurs21
07-17-2003, 05:45 PM
again with the if we didn't win the championship GW?

what is up with that? are you still trying to convince everyone that you are smarter or something?

All right everyone lets just admit that GW was right about the whole "holding pattern" and all the "if" theories he has graciously presented us with so that we don't have to wade throught his shit anymore. Unfortunately, IF we all did this he would STILL find something to argue about.

GW, you should change your name to short circuit, you always seem to drain the energy out of everything.

Go Spurs...

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 05:45 PM
We just won the championship Ghost....who says we were clearing cap space? I say we were building a champion.

gospurs21
07-17-2003, 05:55 PM
oh Jim, I know you didn't just ask him that question

ah sh!t

Go Spurs...

Jimcs50
07-17-2003, 06:17 PM
Do we not have a championship team???? Did we build that team last year???? Nuff said. So what if we did not get Kidd, I did not want him anyway. Nesterovic is better than DRob was last year, we will be better than last year, we are the team to beat.

Ghost Writer
07-17-2003, 06:20 PM
Jimmy, everything you said is true and would be great if the Lakers weren't vastly improved.







:cooldevil

ducks
07-17-2003, 06:22 PM
lets see them play together

if talent on paper won rings kings would have won a couple by now.

gospurs21
07-17-2003, 06:45 PM
GW,
now you are going tell us that the lakers are vastly improved? They still don't have a bench.

Malone slightly better than Horry
Payton much better than Fisher against rest of league but not so much against Spurs.

They still haven't really addressed their problems with us:
1) they don't have anyone that can stop Tim, not even their double team
2) they have no one that can keep up with Manu
3) they have no perimeter defense
4) it is yet to be seen if Payton can slow Tony's offense. In fact this may be better for us. Tony always seems to get up for the best PGs in the league. I always thought Tony was kinda lazy when playing Fisher. Maybe he didn't respect him enough.

So what if the lakers beat up on everyone else. I'll take my chances with this playoff matchup
1 seed - la
2 seed - sa
They might break down or apart before the WCF.

I am not the only one who thinks this

espn.go.com/nba/columns/h...82058.html (http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/hughes_frank/1582058.html)

One question for you: IF we did agree with all your "holding pattern failure" and "IF trade" theories, would you stop bringing them up all the time? (In other words, stop living in the past)

Go Spurs...

Ghost Writer
07-18-2003, 11:04 AM
gospurs, I am sorry. I stopped reading after you wrote "Malone is slightly better than Horry".


:cooldevil

gospurs21
07-18-2003, 02:07 PM
GW,
Everything in the post refers to how the lakers match up against us. I couldn't give a shit what they do against the rest of the league.

Malone vs us last 4 years not as good as Horry vs us last 4 years

Go Spurs...

Cassius Clay
07-18-2003, 02:19 PM
Oh come on gospurs, you don't have any credible black ballas in your post who Cedric The Entertainer likes. How can we take you seriously?

Ghost Writer
07-18-2003, 02:55 PM
Horry was great against us in the playoffs last year.

Cassius, knock yourself out.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-18-2003, 02:58 PM
Horry also played heavy minutes for the Lakers last season. In SA he's looking at 15 per game, if that. Go ahead and be narrowminded as you always are, but he'd be a great addition to the Spurs' bench.

Ghost Writer
07-18-2003, 03:37 PM
If the Spurs could find a balance between finding enough minutes to keep Horry happy as well as viable come playoff time, go ahead and sign him to take Ferry's role and give the Spurs some legit height off the bench in the frontcourt.


:cooldevil

gospurs21
07-18-2003, 03:53 PM
GW,
and Malone was great against us during the last 4 regular seasons?

CC,
I like Cedric especially after his appearance on the country grammer CD. What about Jax?

Go Spurs...

Ghost Writer
07-18-2003, 03:57 PM
gospurs, don't you think adding two 20-point scorers to the Lakers will make them a better tem?



Question.


:cooldevil

gospurs21
07-18-2003, 04:17 PM
yes,
adding two 20 point scorers will definitely make the lakers better, but I don't think Malone will average 20 next year. He will not get 20 against us unless snaq is injured.

Payton is the wild card, if Kobe is willing to share shot attempts then they could both average 20pts.

But how tired is Payton going to be at the end of Spurs - laker games after chasing Tony around all game and having Tony covering him all game long? Throw in Manu and Jax with our help defence and that spells a long night.

Look at what the Bowen, Manu, Jax combo does to Kobe. He said it himself, the Spurs just wear you down. What is our mantra, we just want to grind (interesting term - refers to physical contact) the other team down.

How much time the rookies get to develop will determine how much gas the 4 HOFs have during the playoffs.

I just think our youth is a big advantage. Especially if we run on the lakers. Gary, Kobe and SF (whoever) may be able to keep up with us but I don't see snaq and karl running very much.

Go Spurs...

Ghost Writer
07-18-2003, 04:29 PM
gospurs, you are preaching to the choir. Most of your points I covered in my "We Need to Run on the Lakers" thread about two weeks ago.

Interestingly enough, Malone & Payton said they want to run next season!



:cooldevil

Sky
07-18-2003, 04:34 PM
Ghost - The Holting pattern would have worked if Kidd and Zo decided on SA instead. It was a gamble worth trying. And they still won a ring in spite of the pattern targeting 2003-04.

Some Spurs fans were dreaming of O'Neal or Brand when neither was remotely realistic, or bought into the Reef trade rumors. None of that was happening. The best chance was Kidd, but Jourmana wears the pants in the family and didn't want to leave NYC.

Rasho will help on O but he's too soft in position D. Keep in mind though that the off-season isn't done. Evaluate after the summer ends. Maybe they add Spree, or Pippen, ain't over yet.

Keep in mind that champions have had difficulty attracting free agents, LA until this summer when they got beat got nowhere in free agency as a champion. Players want to be seen as difference makers not coattail riders. As one example, after Utah was eliminated Malone said he didn't want to join the title team.

Spurs fans thought title, Duncan and no taxes would be huge magnets, but 1st option touches, big money and solo spotlight were far more important to O'Neal, big city far more important to Jourmana and so on. San Antonio doesn't represent a great fit for that many FA's. Champs and small city work against you, not for you.

timvp
07-18-2003, 04:41 PM
Keep in mind that champions have had difficulty attracting free agents, LA until this summer when they got beat got nowhere in free agency as a champion. Players want to be seen as difference makers not coattail riders. As one example, after Utah was eliminated Malone said he didn't want to join the title team.

Spurs fans thought title, Duncan and no taxes would be huge magnets, but 1st option touches, big money and solo spotlight were far more important to O'Neal, big city far more important to Jourmana and so on. San Antonio doesn't represent a great fit for that many FA's. Champs and small city work against you, not for you.

Good points and good first post, Sky. Welcome.


What I don't get are the Spurs fans who are crying that the team couldn't land Kidd, JO or Brand. Those three were long shots coming into the offseason. They were far from "locks" like some big pundit led people to believe.

So this offseason where you replace your center and upgrade your bench -- it is hard to look at it as a faliure. Without the money gained by the holting patter, you'd have a bad center and no bench.



Believe.

:hat2

Ghost Writer
07-18-2003, 04:42 PM
Right, Sky.

And for those reasons, I was against the Holt-ing Pattern from the start.

We would've been better served to sign free agent talent or make a trade for a star along the way.


:cooldevil

Sky
07-18-2003, 05:00 PM
Go said: "Malone slightly better than Horry. Payton much better than Fisher against rest of league but not so much against Spurs."

Strongly disagree with this. The Spurs man up D schemes were predicated on Fisher's total inability to create off the dribble or pass, Horry's inability to shoot or be a moving threat off the dribble. Massive upgrade to Payton and Malone. Faster, stronger, a threat in spot up or dribble penetration and far FAR more talented.

Fisher is one of the worst starting 1's in the league. Hits 3's and literally can't do anything else. Payton can create off the dribble, penetrate and dish, finish, run transition, use his height for effective post entry passes and challenge them defensively, goes over screens on D and recovers man. In other words, everything Fisher can't do, Payton can. Well.

The Spurs game planned specifically against those Fisher weaknesses. Replacing Fisher with Payton blows the 2003 Spurs D schemes against LA completely. Payton makes a HUGE difference.

As for Malone. Horry shot 2-39 from 3 and was a non-factor on both ends. Malone is a much more consistent shooter, a better ball handler that can create off the dribble, a much better passer and rebounder, mroe efefctive screener, more of a threat in pick and roll and pick and pop, and can hold position low block better than Horry.

The Spurs could play very physical defense on Kobe and limit LA ball movement because none of his teammates were threats to create off the dribble or pass. Now he has two more in Payton and Malone. Big change.

They still haven't really addressed their problems with us:
1) they don't have anyone that can stop Tim, not even their double team
Double will be more effective with Malone since he can hold position and then you bring the doubler in. Still very weak, Duncan will get his, but not as weak as Horry last year.

2) They have no one that can keep up with Manu
With Payton by his side, Kobe can focus more on his man now rather than covering for Fisher. And Payton takes a ton of roles off Kobe's plate to increase his energy level on both ends.

3) they have no perimeter defense
Disagree. Perimeter D sucked last year because it was way too slow in Fisher and Fox. Kobe, Payton and George are all quick laterally and long and can defend 2-3 positions. Malone is also very good at creating steals. Shaq has already lost 15 pounds this summer and will be more mobile and a better shot blocker.

4) it is yet to be seen if Payton can slow Tony's offense. In fact this may be better for us. Tony always seems to get up for the best PGs in the league. I always thought Tony was kinda lazy when playing Fisher. Maybe he didn't respect him enough.

No reason to respect Fisher defensively. Payton got burned in penetration two years ago because he funnelled TP into Vin Baker and Parker hit layups and floaters all night. Now Payton funnels Parker into Shaq. And Malone is much better at showing in pick and roll than Shaq or Horry.

Payton and Maloen are old but still very talented, durable and believe it or not speed upgrades.

Sky
07-18-2003, 05:08 PM
Ghost - The question is, what realistic alternative was available? You can come up with possible trade scenarios but what was actually on the table?

The Reef rumor was just that. Babcock said he wasn't going to make moves just to clear salaries out, he wanted talent back. And in the midst of a title run, SA couldn't afford to do that.

So what would you have had the Spurs do?

gospurs21
07-18-2003, 05:10 PM
sky,
excellent post.

But I disagree with your analysis of Spurs man D. I don't think the Spurs planned specifically agianst Fisher's weakness. I think the Spurs keyed on krybe and snaq like they always do, willing to take chances with Fisher and Horry shot.

While Gary is an upgrade over Fisher in the shooting department and creating his own shot, Malone's shot against the Spurs has been decreasing steadly over the past 3-4 years and Horry's only this past season.

Sounds to me like you are a pretty knowledgable lakers fan.

Go Spurs...

Ghost Writer
07-18-2003, 05:13 PM
Sky, I endoresed rumored deals that would've gotten us Payton, Sprewell, Mercer and Artest along the way.

Pop only knows what deals were also out there or ones that could've been pursued.



:cooldevil

Sky
07-18-2003, 05:59 PM
Go - Thanks. Yes I'm a Lakers fan, I follow the league very closely and picked the Spurs to win it all back in February. I respect San Antonio, they're a very solid team that plays great defense.

Good point, the D focus was on Shaq and Kobe, so I'll rephrase on Fisher. imo his glaring weaknesses enabled the Spurs to play the defense they did. With Payton now in his place, SA can't run with that D scheme again because LA has three guys that can create off the dribble, pass, penetrate and finish instead of one. Much much harder to defend, you can't just take out Kobe to stop the ball movement now.

Kobe also now gets to work off the ball and has a point that can draw the defense and then find Kobe, Shaq, Malone, or finish on his own in the halfcourt or in transition. Fisher could never hope to do any of that. Fish is the worst 1 in the league in transition.

Malone will get more open looks in LA than he ever did in Utah. The only Jazz scorers were perimeter players. Duncan has to protect inside against Shaq and penetration while Malone spots up elbow. Can put Rasho on Malone instead, but that can put Tim in foul trouble guarding Shaq.

Against LA this year Duncan could completely ignore the LA 4. Horry got wide open uncontested looks, the Spurs dared him to shoot. Do that with Malone he'll light you up. You have to put Malone in an LA context now playing alongside Payton, Kobe and Shaq, instead of Stockton, DeShawn Stevenson and Ostertag.

Ghost - A lot of those deals involved giving up Parker, I'm not sure the Spurs would have been willing to do that.

Ghost Writer
07-18-2003, 06:09 PM
Sky, the Spurs were unwilling to do any deals that meant taking on more salary or a contract ending past 2003. That limits the options of bringing in a second star for the now and future, don't you think?





Question.


:cooldevil

Sky
07-18-2003, 07:01 PM
Ghost - Sure it does. But my question remains, were the Spurs willing to give up young talent like Parker to get more expensive talent?

gospurs21
07-18-2003, 07:03 PM
sky,
you are right. bringing in Gary hellps because he can create his own shot. But Tony does a decent job guarding Gary and the Spurs have one of the best help defenses. Depending on how long it take Rasho to get used to the Spurs perimeter guys funneling the penatrators into the middle will be a big factor in handling the lakers O.

But I have to disagree with you on the Malone getting a lot more open shots against the Spurs. For some time now the Spurs have let Malone have those outside shots perferring to stop him down low. Again the key here will be if Malone can take Rasho off the dribble when he has him outside the paint. Again I think Malone will be given the outside shot. Maybe he will start making them against the Spurs for a change. For some reason against the Spurs Malones outside shot tends to disappear.

Go Spurs...

Sky
07-18-2003, 07:31 PM
go - Players that come to the Lakers and play with Shaq, from Glen Rice to Ron Harper, have all said they get more wide open looks than they've ever had before. So I think it's safe to think Malone will get those same open looks.

You are applying what Malone did with Utah against SA, I don't think that's very relevant. He'll be taking fewer shots, he'll be playing with a dominant inside player that SA has to account for in defensive spacing, the context is radically different.

SA has great team defense help, but that help was much easier to give when Fisher was incapable of creating off the dribble or separating from his man and when the Laker 4 could be ignored entirely or counted on to stay in a fixed spot and not be a finishing or passing threat at all. The Spurs can no longer play the same D schemes, you have to account for that in your analysis.

Payton as a threat live dribble, Kobe (maybe, maybe not) cutting wing, Shaq low block, Malone elbow. You can't defend all 4 at once.

gospurs21
07-18-2003, 07:51 PM
sky,
With the Spurs man D and help D I like our chances. I don't think the lakers are a lock. I know they will be 100% better than last year, but I don't think they will be unbeatable (even with Kobe).

My point with Karl is that for some reason he just hasn't shot well from the outside against the Spurs since about 4 years ago. I can't explain it any more than his patented shot just doesn't seem to be so automatic anymore. Again the Spurs tend to let him have it until he proves he can make it. I don't know if it is mental or what. I don't think changing teams will change that...but we shall see.

As for karl down in the paint, lets see how that works with snaq already there. Tim and David did it well but it took a couple to seasons before it was really effective...see 99 title.

But's that is what is so great about this season, the biggest rivalry is alive a bigger than ever. Doesn't get much better than Spurs - lakers

Go Spurs...

Sky
07-18-2003, 08:30 PM
go - Absolutely. The great thing about Lakers-Spurs is that it has become the leage's biggest rivalry, and with growing talent on either end it can harken back to the classic battles of the eighties. I've really missed that. Two loaded teams with contrasting styles going head to head is basketball at its very best and I expect that next year.

I don't see Malone having to work as hard with LA as he had to in Utah. He'll have more help defending Duncan, take fewer shots, D can't focus on him, etc. I just don't see him clanking shots with Utah as applicable to how he'll do in LA.

Malone won't go low block much at all. He's more comfortable elbow and the triangle has him there, pinch post and baseline. Pretty rare for the 4 to go low block.

The Spurs have the best D in the league. But losing DRob and Speedy will hurt. Rasho can't body Shaq as David could, doesn't have his quickness either. Last time the triangle had dual initiators with a dominant big the Lakers won 33 straight and a ring. It's a very potent offense when you have all the pieces in place. Question is if they'll have the dual initiators, we'll see what happens but I expect Kobe to be on the court.

I don't make the Lakers out to be locks, I think the Spurs will be formidable and they aren't done adding pieces yet. But having that core 4 will make the Lakers very very hard to defend because the defensive spacing will have to be exposed. Even for the Spurs. This is nowhere close to LA last year. They have at least two scoring threats from every spot on the floor from low block to midrange to the arc, along with several cut and finish threats, all on a team of great passers. Tough to stop all that. If anyone can the Spurs can, but it will be a huge challenge for them.

I'm looking forward to it, bring it on.

Ghost Writer
07-19-2003, 11:01 AM
Sky, I answered your Question.

The Spurs weren't willing to give up Parker, Rose or any other Spurs for that matter during the two-year Holt-ing Pattern, because they thought they could bring in star power via free agency this summer.

They declined trades and didn't explore trades.

And we didn't bring in a star this summer.

Therein lies my frustration.



:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-19-2003, 12:11 PM
Therein lies my frustration.


More like an illness, but alas I digress.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 11:38 AM
Sky, I answered your Question.

The Spurs weren't willing to give up Parker, Rose or any other Spurs for that matter during the two-year Holt-ing Pattern, because they thought they could bring in star power via free agency this summer.

They declined trades and didn't explore trades.

And we didn't bring in a star this summer.

Therein lies my frustration.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 01:29 PM
:lol Damn you bitch a lot. If you haven't already you should pay a visit to a pyschiatrist. Might help you.


They declined trades and didn't explore trades.


How do you know they didn't? Spree's agent has been quoted as saying that the Spurs explored a trade for Sprewell before the trade deadline last February.

And that's what only one media report. Most trade discussions never make print.

Of course, again, the Spurs didn't make any major trades during this time yet they still managed to win a title.

WTF IS WRONG WITH THAT YOU DAMN NUT?

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 01:36 PM
The Spurs turned down an offer of Spree for Rose you stupid sunuvab1tch.

I wonder how many deals we turned down that didn't get reported.

We need to tank next season and get another #1 pick. That's our only hope for a star.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 01:42 PM
You said the Spurs 'did not explore trades'. Apparently they did. Now recognize or shut up already you little whiney ass pussy. Dammit I am sick and tired of your anxiety laden rants in this forum. The Spurs win a championship and sure enough you are miserable and you want everyone else to be miserable to. **** that.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:06 PM
Let me clarify:

The Spurs did not seek out trades and turned down all offers, @sswipe.

What if the Spurs made one of your trillion fantasy trades during the Holt-ing Pattern, Marcus Clay?




Question.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:11 PM
How did Speedy Claxton end up in San Antonio? Oh how soon we forget.

And of course under your scenario the Spurs don't have Tony Parker. An unpolished player like Stephen Jackson never makes the starting lineup. Manu Ginobili? Who gives a **** about him let's get some real talent with real fat contracts in here now!

But what about the bench? Well damn you would've shipped off Malik Rose for anything. Then what would the Spurs have?

A capped out team with limited young talent, if any, no bench, and no way to clear the cap room to pursue a star free agent and/or find a replacement for DRob.

And with Tim Duncan having the ability to opt out this summer and GTFO of Dodge.

This is not hard to understand.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:15 PM
Gary Payton > Tony Parker

Jackson started over your boy Smitty regardless.

I never wanted to trade Manu.

Did Rose show up for the Finals?

Dude, you keep ignoring the fact that you were the undisputed king of fantasy trades during the Holt-ing Pattern, yet now you want to come off as the creator of the cap clearing plan.

Come off it.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:27 PM
Pop started SJax and kept him as starter precisely because they were rebuilding. I saw an interview with Pop in which he admitted it was hard for him to watch the young guys (ie SJ) makes mistakes but that it was in the interest of the team to do so.

Yes, you would've run off Tony Parker and Malik Rose for a 35 year old Payton capping out the Spurs this summer. With no cap flexibility to pursue a star and/or DRob replacement.

No youth, no future, no cap room. Yeah, that was your plan. Thank God that never happened you freak.

Adrienne18
07-21-2003, 02:30 PM
Cassius, I actually agree with you.:lol Gary Payton was one of the great ones maybe...but WAS. He's still good, but he's already a has-been. Tony WILL be one of the great ones. He just led his team to a title at 21, but there's still not really any direction to go but up. Call me crazy, but I'd take that over a 35-year-old on his way out.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:34 PM
:rolleyes

For the fourth time, you tried telling me that Jackson would not start and that Smitty would last season, Marcus. Don't talk to me about Jackson.

Payton's contract ended this summer, 'tard. We could've used his and Robinson's money off the books to get spurned by free agents just like this past summer.

You wanted to make trades even more than I did, fool.

I remember telling you and the others that there would be no way the Spurs would make any trades involving contracts beyond 2003, yet you disagreed.


:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:37 PM
Oh so now you were on board with the 'Holting Pattern'? Right. Pop flat out admitted that SJax wouldn't have been starting if they weren't rebuilding.

That Payton deal hinged on Payton getting a max extension at that time. The Spurs didnt want to do it so they didnt. Even if they did you have no Parker and no Rose. SJax doesn't start because you dont have time for rebuilding we have to win it all now.

**** that.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:38 PM
Holting Pattern = Championship.

Ghost's Plan = Spurs are fucked.

Ghost = lunatic loser in CT.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:41 PM
No.

Jackson was the better option than Smitty.

You figured Payton would insist on an extension. That was obviously bullsh1t.

You wanted trades even more desperately than me.

Be true to yourself, hypocrite.


Holting Pattern = Cap Clearing Plan

Ghost's Plan = Spurs Trade for Talent

Ghost = realist

:cooldevil

Admiral
07-21-2003, 02:46 PM
And both of you wanted to sign Webber and let DRob walk in 2001. That would've definitely been Exhibit A of how to waste cap space, and we wouldn't have won the title this year.

Next.

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 02:48 PM
Ghost, you're toast. Stop embarassing yourself.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 02:58 PM
:sleep

Great comeback. Your dinner is served.

:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 03:03 PM
Yeah, no doubt you are used to 'servicing' others. :king

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 03:08 PM
What happened to your big speeches about landing a star being amatter of survival, Marcus. What about Duncan deserving better than Robinson?







Question.






:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 03:20 PM
Well I hope those who have labelled Tony Parker as the second coming are correct. I'm not going to whine about water under the bridge like you have.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 03:27 PM
No.

Your M.O. is to get me to do the whining for the both of us. Notic ethe title of this thread and the generator.

+:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 03:29 PM
Don't worry Ghostie, no one needs to do anything to get you started.

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 03:37 PM
You love to instigate and I hate to disappoint. :lol



:tyson = Ratings®





:cooldevil

Cassius Clay
07-21-2003, 03:50 PM
Well then we need a new deal with LJ & Kori.

CrazyOne
07-21-2003, 05:17 PM
I think it's time to start the official "Ghost, Don't Drink the Grape Koolaid Yet!" support group. Yes, it's disappointing not to get a "star" with the cap room we cleared, but there are no guarantees. Just ask the folks at Orlando when they tried to get Tim. What can you conclusively say that the FO did that they shouldn't have, or failed to do that they should have which would guarantee that one of those "stars" would sign with SA? If the "stars" are too ego-bound to play second fiddle to the best player in the NBA, well, as a friend of mine would say... "Some people are just too stupid to live."

Step away from the ledge... unless you promise to take a few of the folks on my list with you. :wacko

Ghost Writer
07-21-2003, 05:20 PM
CrazyOne, I've already answered all of your Questions.

If Orlando couldn't get Duncan, why did our front office think they could get Kidd?


Question.


:cooldevil

CrazyOne
07-21-2003, 06:02 PM
You can't know until you try... unless you want to get fined for tampering.

adidas11
07-21-2003, 06:05 PM
Then why are you blasting Orlando for trying to get Tim Duncan then, CrazyOne?

Oh, and the Magic still managed to land TWO superstars that summer, in Grant Hill (although in hindsight, that now appears to be a bad decision) and Tracy McGrady. Looks like their plan B worked pretty well, in my estimation.

CrazyOne
07-21-2003, 07:09 PM
I'm not blasting O for trying to get Tim, I just didn't want him to go there. They had every right to try, but just like the Spurs with Kidd, they had no guarantee that they would get him. I just meant that they couldn't get any confirmation from Kidd that he would sign until the FA open season started, and then all the Spurs could do was give it their best shot.

It's too soon to tell if our plan B will work well, McGrady was considered the booby prize when he signed up, and appears to have acquitted himself adequately since then.

gospurs21
07-22-2003, 12:23 PM
GW,
I don't think our front office believed they could get Kidd. See Pop visits Rasho on July 1.

The front office was mearly showing Tim Duncan (who we all wanted to keep) that they were willing to do everything possible to TRY and get Kidd because it was Tim's wish.

Go Spurs...

Ghost Writer
07-22-2003, 12:47 PM
"I don't think our front office believed they could get Kidd." — gospurs
:lol

I believe you're wrong.

I believe the front office wouldn't have been dumb enough to clear cap space for two seasons if they didn;t think they could land Kidd or another max free agent.

I believe the Spurs were very confident they would sign Kidd after they left San Antonio.

I believe Popo intended on signing Kidd and Rasho.

:cooldevil