Game Thread: Spurs @ Thunder - Feb. 11, 2020 @ 7 PM CT

[ZeusWillJudge]

I was hoping tonight was the night the Pelicans would pass the Spurs, but you guys won’t fucking go away.


So were we.


If the goal is to make that 8 seed, the Spurs are running out of games. They're 5 back in the loss column, and down to 38 games left to play. The Spurs could catch fire, and the Griz could falter, but there are still three other teams to worry about. And all that is just to try and squeak into 8th for a first round exit.

You guys (Pelicans) have the pieces and picks on your roster in pretty good shape. Maybe it's time to start the winning culture. But the Spurs are stupid for winning games like this one.

[Slippy]

If you add Lyles effort who was superb on both ends, spurs youngens earned this win for the team.

Demar not playing forced Pops hand here to a certain degree. Thats why didnt mind Demar off the bench earlier in the season. Instead we got pop playing off Demar which in turn had a domino effect.

IE playing Forbes to space the floor for Demar and LA hanging outside.

Oh well its probably too late

[FkLA]

https://twitter.com/spurs/status/1227449107964399616?s=19

Pop is a such a huge faggot for robbing us of this all season. Literally the thing we were all most excited for heading into the season and this motherfucker is still out here starting Brent.

[daslicer]

https://twitter.com/spurs/status/1227449107964399616?s=19

Pop is a such a huge faggot for robbing us of this all season. Literally the thing we were all most excited for heading into the season and this motherfucker is still out here starting Brent.

It reminds me how it took him nearly 2 years to start Splitter with Duncan.

[diceman]

Link?

I think people imagine these supposed good grades I give Pop. I've given Pop like, what, two As all season? By reading all the ":cry timvp why do you grade Pop so easily :cry" comments, one would think he was actually getting Bs and higher every night. :lol

His average on the season has to be lower than anyone not named Marco, tbh. And it might be lower than Marco.

The natives are looking for others to blame. timvp is pretty damn honest on the grades. Of course there is a missed grade here or there but mostly on point.

[boutons_deux]

4 Blks by Lyles, what did he eat today?

I think he gaining confidence, that he really can make a difference, rather just a placeholder

[R. DeMurre]

"Yeah, but without DeMar where do the points come from??"

They come from guys who also play defense.

Basketball 101.

[John B]

"Yeah, but without DeMar where do the points come from??"

They come from guys who also play defense.

Basketball 101.

Beautiful game. It doesn't have to come from one guy, instead the ball will find the best shot. Demar causes the ball to stop with his iso, worst he doesn't play defense as well as Lonnie. Addition by subtraction.

[FkLA]

This DeMar hate is so stupid, bro. They win one game without him and suddenly he was the cancer all along.

Brent Forms is still starting people. In the long term, he will always weigh the team down regardless of whether it's the White-Murray show or the DeMar show. Besides it can easily be the White-Murray-DeRozan show. Don't let Pop brainwash you into thinking they can't all start together.

[DPG21920]

This DeMar hate is so stupid, bro. They win one game without him and suddenly he was the cancer all along.

Brent Forms is still starting people. In the long term, he will always weigh the team down regardless of whether it's the White-Murray show or the DeMar show. Besides it can easily be the White-Murray-DeRozan show. Don't let Pop brainwash you into thinking they can't all start together.

Bryn started when Derozan was playing so what was the difference?

[FkLA]

Bryn started when Derozan was playing so what was the difference?

It's a two game sample size. Are you seriously suggesting that this team is better without DD based on that?

[DPG21920]

It's a two game sample size. Are you seriously suggesting that this team is better without DD based on that?

It was suggested well before these games; this is all we have too.

[Collins21]

It was suggested well before these games; this is all we have too.

Seriously have you ever played organized basketball before? Not trying to be snarky I just wanted to ask?

[Fireball]

Nice win ... Murray finally with a stretch of multiple very good games in a row

[RC_Drunkford]

Forbes is the cancer not DeRozan. Of course the young guys look better without DeMar, but the team would look even better if it was Murray/White/DeRozan instead of Murray/White/Forbes

[Prime BEEF]

Seriously have you ever played organized basketball before? Not trying to be snarky I just wanted to ask?
Your schtick is old. You ask everybody the same question and it’s not even asked right. Technically junior pro or little dribblers is organized basketball.

[Collins21]

Your schtick is old. You ask everybody the same question and it’s not even asked right. Technically junior pro or little dribblers is organized basketball.

Yeah ok. I can ask what I want when I want. I actually ask basketball questions not bullshit like 99% of you on here. So if my schtick is to actually talk basketball then yeah I'm guilty.

[R. DeMurre]

This DeMar hate is so stupid, bro. They win one game without him and suddenly he was the cancer all along.

Brent Forms is still starting people. In the long term, he will always weigh the team down regardless of whether it's the White-Murray show or the DeMar show. Besides it can easily be the White-Murray-DeRozan show. Don't let Pop brainwash you into thinking they can't all start together.


Forbes makes $2.8 mil. DeRozan makes $27.7 mil... 10X the salary! Replace DeRozan with two 3 & D guys who make $14 mil each and you've got a serious team. I agree Forbes gets way too many minutes, but DeRozan is the bigger problem.

[sasaint]

Why must the problem be Bryn OR Dumbmar?

[DPG21920]

Again, it’s not that Derozan sucks or anything and he’s played well. It’s that even him playing well means questionable impact due to his style of play and deficiencies.

The point is many of us have been arguing that while on paper Derozan is absolutely better than any other player on the team and that Pops concerns about spacing (with or without Derozan) regards to playing White/Murray and Lonnie together are valid; it’s just on paper. And when evaluated beyond “hypothesis” stage that there are more than enough reasons to think that type of lineup would actually be net better.

In the small sample size it absolutely has been more than promising and it’s only due to Pops stubbornness that we have that small sample. It’s inexplicable that we do. If the other lineups were performing well and Sa was winning ok. But not the case.

Beyond that, with Derozan in particular, he’s basically the ONLY outlier regarding impact stats. Basically his entire career he graded out the same way: little to no actual impact despite being at top 20 guy. Pretty much all other top 20 players have both positive impact and the stats reflect that.

At some point you have to wonder why when I agree it’s perplexing to me and I’m not smart enough to explain why that is. Either way, it’s not about the small sample size of White/Murray. It’s the insanely LARGE sample size on Derozan.

The Murray/White stuff is what gives you hope and willingness to explore non Derozan life. But not saying that is even a slam dunk. Point is SA has a huge decision and I already thought there was zero justification for keeping Derozan and paying him for another deal. Now? After seeing this small sample size? It’s just another tally on that ledger.

[FkLA]

It was suggested well before these games; this is all we have too.

What was so great about these two games without him that proves he's a cancer anyways? It's not like the Spurs haven't had solid wins with DeMar leading the charge.

Doesn't it just make a lot more sense to want DD-White-Murray instead of Forms-White-Murray?


Forbes makes $2.8 mil. DeRozan makes $27.7 mil... 10X the salary! Replace DeRozan with two 3 & D guys who make $14 mil each and you've got a serious team. I agree Forbes gets way too many minutes, but DeRozan is the bigger problem.

Salary is irrelevant when we're looking at on the court impact. Brent plays the third most minutes on the team and sinks the team every second he's out there. The easiest, most obvious tink is to just throw him away.

We haven't gotten a chance to see White-Murray-DeMar on a regular basis. Throw Lonnie in there too. We literally don't even know what this team is capable of if Pop just plays his best guys together yet we want to blame DeMar? It's beyond stupid.

[FkLA]

Why must the problem be Bryn OR Dumbmar?

The real question is why is it White-Murray OR DeMar?


Again, it’s not that Derozan sucks or anything and he’s played well. It’s that even him playing well means questionable impact due to his style of play and deficiencies.

The point is many of us have been arguing that while on paper Derozan is absolutely better than any other player on the team and that Pops concerns about spacing (with or without Derozan) regards to playing White/Murray and Lonnie together are valid; it’s just on paper. And when evaluated beyond “hypothesis” stage that there are more than enough reasons to think that type of lineup would actually be net better.

In the small sample size it absolutely has been more than promising and it’s only due to Pops stubbornness that we have that small sample. It’s inexplicable that we do. If the other lineups were performing well and Sa was winning ok. But not the case.

Beyond that, with Derozan in particular, he’s basically the ONLY outlier regarding impact stats. Basically his entire career he graded out the same way: little to no actual impact despite being at top 20 guy. Pretty much all other top 20 players have both positive impact and the stats reflect that.

At some point you have to wonder why when I agree it’s perplexing to me and I’m not smart enough to explain why that is. Either way, it’s not about the small sample size of White/Murray. It’s the insanely LARGE sample size on Derozan.

The Murray/White stuff is what gives you hope and willingness to explore non Derozan life. But not saying that is even a slam dunk. Point is SA has a huge decision and I already thought there was zero justification for keeping Derozan and paying him for another deal. Now? After seeing this small sample size? It’s just another tally on that ledger.

He's a different player than he was earlier in his career. Much better playmaker, more efficient.

Let's find out what this DD can do with White/Murray/Lonnie by his side. The one game White and Lonnie started alongside him the starters went into MIL and played toe to toe with their starters. This was earlier in the year when the starters were routinely getting into large holes to start games too. Why aren't we clamoring for a bigger sample size of that?

[R. DeMurre]

What was so great about these two games without him that proves he's a cancer anyways? It's not like the Spurs haven't had solid wins with DeMar leading the charge.

Doesn't it just make a lot more sense to want DD-White-Murray instead of Forms-White-Murray?



Salary is irrelevant when we're looking at on the court impact. Brent plays the third most minutes on the team and sinks the team every second he's out there. The easiest, most obvious tink is to just throw him away.

We haven't gotten a chance to see White-Murray-DeMar on a regular basis. Throw Lonnie in there too. We literally don't even know what this team is capable of if Pop just plays his best guys together yet we want to blame DeMar? It's beyond stupid.

It's not two games-- it's 11 seasons and 6 playoff series of mediocre to poor advanced stats. Unlike LeBron, Giannis, Kawhi, Jokic, Duncan, Ginobili, etc., etc. DeRozan does not make his teams better when he's on the floor. Look at his numbers in the playoffs-- this isn't some made up conspiracy theory: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/derozde01.html.

[FkLA]

Ok, so DeMar doesn't stack up well against once in a generation type guys like Nephew, Giannis, and LeBron. Fair.

How does Brent stack up with elite starting SGs?


p.s. I honestly can't believe I'm having a Forms vs DeMar discussion. It's like comparing KIAs to Porsches.

[DPG21920]

The real question is why is it White-Murray OR DeMar?



He's a different player than he was earlier in his career. Much better playmaker, more efficient.

Let's find out what this DD can do with White/Murray/Lonnie by his side. The one game White and Lonnie started alongside him the starters went into MIL and played toe to toe with their starters. This was earlier in the year when the starters were routinely getting into large holes to start games too. Why aren't we clamoring for a bigger sample size of that?

Bruh - even this year(haven’t checked lately) SA has been better with him off the court I believe. How much more do you need? It’s not the fact he MAY be good with White/Murray/Lonnie - it’s that we know we have a good shot without him and you can then get assets for him or use way less money to find guys you know FOR SURE are a good fit next to a younger and way less expensive core that is ascending (to what ceiling, have no idea though) vs sinking even more money into a guy that while putting up nice box scores doesn’t seem to be impacting winning.

[DPG21920]

Ok, so DeMar doesn't stack up well against once in a generation type guys like Nephew, Giannis, and LeBron. Fair.

How does Brent stack up with elite starting SGs?


p.s. I honestly can't believe I'm having a Forms vs DeMar discussion. It's like comparing KIAs to Porsches.

IMO, you are having the wrong discussion. Thats why. No one should expect DeRozan to compare to Lebron etc...but if hes that good and a top 20-25 player how come he does not stack up to any of them? Despite being on winning teams and putting up numbers?

The point is asking why not see what Derozan can do with White/Murray is the issue. White/Murray will cover up for everyone which is why they are impactful even with Forbes and not DeRozan.

Sure, DeRozan would succeed with White/Murray - most would. But you don’t pay top dollar for that is the point especially when the guy is aging and will have zero chance to live up to the type of money he will command 2-4 years from now.


The real question is: Why is it that on paper losing DeRozan should mean a lot less wins and the offense cratering, but that in reality that doesn’t seem to happen?

Edit: Just checked - on offense when DeRozan is on the floor SA has an offensive rating of 112.7. When he is off? 112.5. So virtually the exact same. Defensively? When he’s on the floor opponents have a offensive rating of 115.5. When he is off? They have an offensive rating of 110.5.

So when he’s playing SA is losing by 3 points. When he is not playing SA is winning by 2 points.

[R. DeMurre]

Ok, so DeMar doesn't stack up well against once in a generation type guys like Nephew, Giannis, and LeBron. Fair.

How does Brent stack up with elite starting SGs?


p.s. I honestly can't believe I'm having a Forms vs DeMar discussion. It's like comparing KIAs to Porsches.



I don't get why you're obsessed with Forbes... yes, the undrafted undersized guy who makes under $3mil per is not that great. I don't expect him to be. The highest paid player on the team should have maximum impact, and he doesn't. No one is comparing LeBron and Caruso or Giannis and DiVincenzo, so the fact that we're even having a Demar/Forbes discussion shows how minor a player DeRozan is. His salary is a huge impediment to improving the team. Forbes's salary is meaningless.

[FkLA]

Not about salaries or extensions. Nobody is saying to throw the bank at him or to extend him.

He's still here through at least the end of the season though. It's very possible that a team with DD/White/Murray/Lonnie playing a lot of minutes, sharing the court a lot doesn't have a high enough ceiling to warrant DD getting paid. But what's the harm in giving it a test run for the remaining 30 games? If it doesn't work out you can still move on from DD and you feel a hell of a lot better about it than you would about just pulling the plug without ever giving it a fair shot.

[DPG21920]

Not about salaries or extensions. Nobody is saying to throw the bank at him or to extend him.

He's still here through at least the end of the season though. It's very possible that a team with DD/White/Murray/Lonnie playing a lot of minutes, sharing the court a lot doesn't have a high enough ceiling to warrant DD getting paid. But what's the harm in giving it a test run for the remaining 30 games? If it doesn't work out you can still move on from DD and you feel a hell of a lot better about it then just pulling the plug without ever giving it a fair shot.

Well, you can’t just leave money out of the equation. If he was willing to say for Bryn Forbes money, fine, sure. But that is not the case. He wants to get a max deal and even if the does not get that, you are looking at 3/75 at least. No way at 25M is it even worth a discussion with his metrics.

Like I said, he plays with the same guys everyone else does yet the team consistently is better with him off the court vs on.

Can he be a player on a winning team? Yes. Is he the most “talented” player the Spurs? Yes. Does it make sense at his age, with his impact to sink more money into him and do the type of work it would take to build a perfect team around him to where you can cover up for all his weaknesses in order to have a shot at winning? Absolutely not - especially since he’s aging and will not be improving.

And I think it’s somewhat the opposite of what you are saying. Moving on from DeRozan means you need to see how the youth does without him and if you can have a good offense without him (because the defense you know for sure will improve). That’s what you have to find out.

[FkLA]

I don't get why you're obsessed with Forbes... yes, the undrafted undersized guy who makes under $3mil per is not that great. I don't expect him to be. The highest paid player on the team should have maximum impact, and he doesn't. No one is comparing LeBron and Caruso or Giannis and DiVincenzo, so the fact that we're even having a Demar/Forbes discussion shows how minor a player DeRozan is. His salary is a huge impediment to improving the team. Forbes's salary is meaningless.

He's playing the third most minutes on the team, bruh.

I am obsessed with not sucking. Easiest way to go about doing that is to stop playing said undrafted, undersized guy that is not that great.

[DPG21920]

And look, DeRozan is having one of his best seasons ever honestly (taking away the semi poor start to the year). A lot of his stats look very positive. Yet, again, somehow his on/off is still poor.

It’s truly perplexing; one of the true case studies of certain stats v eye test etc..But there is consistent data that only seems to impact him vs other “stars”.

Big picture, right or wrong, with him as the best player the teams ceiling sucks and they aren’t winning. Is that all his fault? No. The team was not built for him and then post trade SA did nothing to reshape the roster more effectively around him to give him a real shot. That’s not on him.

But we are where we are. His contract is looming large and there is too much work to do with such poor evidence to justify investing any more money into him. He’s been a great Spur, and even better person but it’s not a good fit.

Kawhi f’d him and the Spurs and it’s time to move on.

[FkLA]

I just don't agree with him getting blamed. I don't think we've been able to see the true ceiling of SA with him as the best player because of Pop's rotations. Doesn't mean I'm willing to extend him to find out. I just want to take my test run. That's it.

[DPG21920]

I just don't agree with him getting blamed. I don't think we've been able to see the true ceiling of SA with him as the best player because of Pop's rotations. Doesn't mean I'm willing to extend him to find out. I just want to take my test run. That's it.

No I agree with that. It’s not a blame thing. He’s done his thing and been a good Spur. It’s just the situation imo.

[sasaint]

Well, you can’t just leave money out of the equation. If he was willing to say for Bryn Forbes money, fine, sure. But that is not the case. He wants to get a max deal and even if the does not get that, you are looking at 3/75 at least. No way at 25M is it even worth a discussion with his metrics.

Like I said, he plays with the same guys everyone else does yet the team consistently is better with him off the court vs on.

Can he be a player on a winning team? Yes. Is he the most “talented” player the Spurs? Yes. Does it make sense at his age, with his impact to sink more money into him and do the type of work it would take to build a perfect team around him to where you can cover up for all his weaknesses in order to have a shot at winning? Absolutely not - especially since he’s aging and will not be improving.

And I think it’s somewhat the opposite of what you are saying. Moving on from DeRozan means you need to see how the youth does without him and if you can have a good offense without him (because the defense you know for sure will improve). That’s what you have to find out.

Actually, even at Bryn's money why would you keep a career net negative player? Maybe if he agreed to go to the bench. Playing +/- 20 minutes against opponents' benches he might not be a net negative...

[spurs10]

Actually, even at Bryn's money why would you keep a career net negative player? Maybe if he agreed to go to the bench. Playing +/- 20 minutes against opponents' benches he might not be a net negative... I don't think 'if he agreed' is the question. He doesn't have a say of when or if he plays. I think it's promising him playing less minutes of late and yes his rating will surely improve if he's playing less.

The DDR dilemma is very concerning in that we are not winning despite his good numbers. This next 28 game run will tell the tale on what happens this summer.

[sasaint]

I don't think 'if he agreed' is the question. He doesn't have a say of when or if he plays. I think it's promising him playing less minutes of late and yes his rating will surely improve if he's playing less.

The DDR dilemma is very concerning in that we are not winning despite his good numbers. This next 28 game run will tell the tale on what happens this summer.

In a vacuum, no player needs to agree to a role. In reality, however, disgruntled players often become cancerous.

[spurs10]

In a vacuum, no player needs to agree to a role. In reality, however, disgruntled players often become cancerous. I don't think Forbes would be that kind of player, as the Spurs was a mighty big break for him. I've often wondered if he wouldn't prefer not being a starter. He has heard the noise about his defensive liabilities. I don't think he would become a bad locker room guy if demoted. You are right about certain players though, (cue Capt. Jack).

[Ozballer]

DDR is more than a competent star for a strong regular season performance. He is unproven (or proven short to the mark) when the Heat (not just Miami with Lebron) is on in the playoffs. He is also best suited in non leadership roles.

At the level he has been showing recently, had he been with the right supporting cast the Spurs could easily be deep in playoffs contention. The issue is exactly this, his surrounding playing environment, not him. From one season to the next, the drop on consistent performance by White and LMA is the key element. These two carried the load for most of the 18-19 reg season. Secondary is the perimeter shooting loss with Bertans gone and the cooling off of Belinelli and Forbes. Lastly, Murray taking longer than expected in converting promise to tangible results on the court. In brief, he is pulling his weight better than than most in this team.

[sasaint]

I don't think Forbes would be that kind of player, as the Spurs was a mighty big break for him. I've often wondered if he wouldn't prefer not being a starter. He has heard the noise about his defensive liabilities. I don't think he would become a bad locker room guy if demoted. You are right about certain players though, (cue Capt. Jack).

I was talking about Dumbmar.

[San Antonio Slayer]

I watched the whole OKC game hoping to see the beautiful game without DDR and with Walker as a starter...fuck, we are totally clueless offensively. Lyles is the only player developed so far. and we would be worse than the Cavs if we traded LMA. we just don't deserve that 8th seed, fuck!!!

[Sugus]

I watched the whole OKC game hoping to see the beautiful game without DDR and with Walker as a starter...fuck, we are totally clueless offensively. Lyles is the only player developed so far. and we would be worse than the Cavs if we traded LMA. we just don't deserve that 8th seed, fuck!!!

The beautiful game is dead and gone, my man. Watching a '20 Spurs game and hoping to see that is just setting yourself up for disappointment. The Spurs actually had a solid offensive outing (for their average that is), and beat a good PO contending team in OKC.

[Prime BEEF]

I watched the whole OKC game hoping to see the beautiful game without DDR and with Walker as a starter...fuck, we are totally clueless offensively. Lyles is the only player developed so far. and we would be worse than the Cavs if we traded LMA. we just don't deserve that 8th seed, fuck!!!
This was a good game for this team. Beat a solid okc team