Do we have a losing record cause we are playing DeRozan-Ball?

[RC_Drunkford]

The system is built around DeRozan this year. With Aldridge shooting 3s the spacing is built to give DeMar enough room in the paint, but the team is not really successful doing that.

Last year and the year before they played through Aldridge a lot more. And while that results into a 1st-round exit 95% of the time, the sample size is large enough to know that Aldridge-Ball at least gets you into the postseason.

[r0drig0lac]

Forbes and Pop

[NASpurs]

Isn't it because DeRozan that Pop HAS to start Forbes? If DeRozan had a 3 point shot, then no one would have such strong feelings for DeRozan.

[sasaint]

Biggest problem is Pop. Then flip a coin: Dumbmar heads/Bryn tails. Then LMA. Then Rudy. Then Marco. Lots of stoopid losers on this team.

[Robz4000]

Forbes and Pop

[NASpurs]

Biggest problem is Pop. Then flip a coin: Dumbmar heads/Bryn tails. Then LMA. Then Rudy. Then Marco. Lots of stoopid losers on this team.

Biggest problem is the construction of this team. Sure there are combinations that people want but even those combinations would probably be just good enough for an 8th seed.

[Robz4000]

Not that DeRozan doesn't cause his own problems.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Forbes/Pop and Demar stunting the growth of the young 3

[sasaint]

Isn't it because DeRozan that Pop HAS to start Forbes? If DeRozan had a 3 point shot, then no one would have such strong feelings for DeRozan.

No. Bryn doesn't shoot 3s much better than white, and his overall shooting % is worse. On a much smaller sample size, Lonnie actually shoots 3s better than Bryn, and his overall shooting % is much better. I would even start Patty over Bryn. Bryn's ability to stretch the D is a myth.

[sasaint]

Biggest problem is the construction of this team. Sure there are combinations that people want but even those combinations would probably be just good enough for an 8th seed.


8th is better than where we are and where we will end up. But, yes, as we all know, Pop has put together a terrible roster, and he plays rotations that make it even worse.

[EasyMoney]

Demar is a career net negative. But no. Certain players are playing too much, certain players are playing not enough. Certain players are starting when shouldn't be, and closing when shouldnt be.

[NASpurs]

No. Bryn doesn't shoot 3s much better than white, and his overall shooting % is worse. On a much smaller sample size, Lonnie actually shoots 3s better than Bryn, and his overall shooting % is much better. I would even start Patty over Bryn. Bryn's ability to stretch the D is a myth.

Then tell me why he still starts and also tell it to Pop.

[NASpurs]

Dude still starting with or without Frozen. Are you inferring he will still start but play less with DeFrozen out?

Pop isn't going to stop starting Forbes because DeRozan is taking a break for two games. And Forbes doesn't need the ball in his hands like White and Murray do to be effective.

White, Murray and DeRozan all need the ball in their hands and can't forget about Ma Touches. I'm still counting one basketball out there.

[Ibleedslvrnblk]

Melo and DDR stats are good but.....

[baseline bum]

When I saw the thread title I thought it was going to be asking Do we have a losing record in games we have 20 point leads in tbh.

[NASpurs]

So are you now saying he WONT Start Bryn if DePression is OFF the team and he only did it because he was HURT?

Everybody in this community knows there is no reason in the world Pop IS NOT going to start Bryn and give him minutes as long as they are THE COACH and his is a PLAYER on that coaches Teams ROSTER. You said this man


Bryn starts because DeFrozen doesn't have a 3 point shot.


and now your talking about one ball and some other such nonsense about touches?

WTF? Dude

I'm racking my brain here as to what you're failing to understand. Stick to the Star Trek gifs bro.

That part in bold is exactly what I'm saying. What are YOU not understanding? I'm communicating in English right?

[Genovaswitness]

overwhelmingly yes. the spurs with demar and LMA play iso long 2 choker loserball. get these idiots off the team

[NASpurs]

Not may fault you don't realize you are making an IF function with this statement



an if function is

Something is true when something happens and the opposite is true when it doesn't


IF(derozen has a three point shot) THEN(POP Doesn't HAVE to start BYRN FORBES)


I'll make another If Function

IF you don't realize what youre saying when writing a IF fucntion THEN you



When somebody points out your flaw

Jesus Christ this is fucking stupid. :lol

[acoelho1]

There is no doubt in my mind that if we played faster with Murray pushing it and White and Walker on the wings, we would be a better team. Part of the reason we struggled is DDR’s iso ball, spacing issues since he doesn’t shoot the 3 and his lack of defensive intensity unless he’s playing the Raptors. My main reason for wanting to trade him was to open up the offense. Kind of like when the Raptors traded Rudy Gay and they started to win. Sometimes fit plays a huge role in the success of a team and he’s just a bad fit.

[TimDunkem]

Not exactly. He'll never be a true #1, nor will he ever win a title because he prices himself out of being on a championship team with his contracts and touches, but you can win with him in theory.

The issues are that Pop is holding the team back with his decision making which has, most importantly of all, led to the construction of a roster that is just not very good.

[SpursDynasty85]

Forbes and Marco over Walker and Carroll is the biggest frustration at this point. Beginning of the year Murray and White were both bad as well so it's not all om DeRozan for sure but he is definitely not worth his contract. He needs to take a role as a 3rd/4th option if he wamts to contend.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

LOL. Neither Murray not Walker nor White are difference makers. DeRozan and Aldridge need help and that trio is not ready this year

[JeffDuncan]

Rtg is based on 100 possessions. ORtg means points scored per 100 possessions. DRtg means points given up, per 100.

Trend of Spurs' ORtg the last 5 seasons:

110.3 , 111.1 , 107.9 , 112.9 , 112.1

Trend of Spurs' DRtg the last 5 seasons:

99.0 , 103.5 , 104.8 , 111.2 , 113.4

Difference between ORtg and DRtg, year by year:

11.3 , 7.6 , 3.1 , 1.7 , minus 1.3

The difference shrank until it flipped this year. The Defense number is the culprit. It rose, in a long-term trend, until it exceeded the offense, as marked in bold. For the defense to be the basic problem, should not surprise anybody.

"DeRozan ball," or whatever you want to call it, is good enough on the offensive side that the team could have a winning record. (They might be ugly wins.)

But "Forbes ball" (so call it) is the killer. Too many points given up.

Solution? Try giving more time on court to the team's better defenders.

Which will astonish nobody.

[JeffDuncan]

LOL. Neither Murray not Walker nor White are difference makers. ...



Yes they absolutely are, if they replace Bryn Forbes and Marco Belinelli, because what's killing the team is that the defense is so bad.

[DPG21920]

3 man lineups:

Derozan, Forbes, Murray: 745 mins = offensive rating of 109.7 & defensive rating of 113.6 for a net rating of -3.9

White, Forbes, Murray: 39 mins = offensive rating of 109.9 & defensive rating of 105.9 for a net rating of +4.0

Interesting again how with Derozan Forbes drags him down but not the same for White/Murray? Also offense stays as potent too despite DeRozan being a superior player.

Sample size is small but this has been hypothesized by many for a long time.

[TDomination]

IMO i would put DDR on the bench. He can go nuts during his 25min off the bench against the other teams 2nd unit.
STARTERS --> White/Forbes/Murray/Lyles/LMA,
BENCH--> Mills/DDR/Walker/Gay/Poeltl
CLOSERS --> White/Murray/Walker (or Mills depending on how the game has gone for either player)/Lyles/LMA

[Collins21]

3 man lineups:

Derozan, Forbes, Murray: 745 mins = offensive rating of 109.7 & defensive rating of 113.6 for a net rating of -3.9

White, Forbes, Murray: 39 mins = offensive rating of 109.9 & defensive rating of 105.9 for a net rating of +4.0

Interesting again how with Derozan Forbes drags him down but not the same for White/Murray? Also offense stays as potent too despite DeRozan being a superior player.

Sample size is small but this has been hypothesized by many for a long time.

I can't wait until Aldridge and DeRozan are gone next year and this team turns into the 2013-2017 76ers. You and everybody else who thinks White Murray and Walker can carry a team to more than 25 wins to have egg on their face.

[DPG21920]

I can't wait until Aldridge and DeRozan are gone next year and this team turns into the 2013-2017 76ers. You and everybody else who thinks White Murray and Walker can carry a team to more than 25 wins to have egg on their face.

25 or 35 wins who cares? We know the road ends with Derozan. Murray and White May suck without Derozan and LMA but if the only risk is losing out on a 35 win team? Who cares.

[RC_Drunkford]

Rtg is based on 100 possessions. ORtg means points scored per 100 possessions. DRtg means points given up, per 100.

Trend of Spurs' ORtg the last 5 seasons:

110.3 , 111.1 , 107.9 , 112.9 , 112.1

Trend of Spurs' DRtg the last 5 seasons:

99.0 , 103.5 , 104.8 , 111.2 , 113.4

Difference between ORtg and DRtg, year by year:

11.3 , 7.6 , 3.1 , 1.7 , minus 1.3

The difference shrank until it flipped this year. The Defense number is the culprit. It rose, in a long-term trend, until it exceeded the offense, as marked in bold. For the defense to be the basic problem, should not surprise anybody.

"DeRozan ball," or whatever you want to call it, is good enough on the offensive side that the team could have a winning record. (They might be ugly wins.)

But "Forbes ball" (so call it) is the killer. Too many points given up.

Solution? Try giving more time on court to the team's better defenders.

Which will astonish nobody.

I thought about that before I made the thread and was aware of the numbers, but considering DeRozan is not a 3-point shooter, is that maybe the reason why Pop plays Forbes with him? And playing 2 bad defenders makes the defense look like swiss cheese. Not saying you are wrong, I just wanted to throw the question in the room.


3 man lineups:

Derozan, Forbes, Murray: 745 mins = offensive rating of 109.7 & defensive rating of 113.6 for a net rating of -3.9

White, Forbes, Murray: 39 mins = offensive rating of 109.9 & defensive rating of 105.9 for a net rating of +4.0

Interesting again how with Derozan Forbes drags him down but not the same for White/Murray? Also offense stays as potent too despite DeRozan being a superior player.

Sample size is small but this has been hypothesized by many for a long time.

Then again there is not enough of a sample size on a Murray/White/DeRozan line up to really know if that is a better line up than the one without DeMar

[Collins21]

25 or 35 wins who cares? We know the road ends with Derozan. Murray and White May suck without Derozan and LMA but if the only risk is losing out on a 35 win team? Who cares.

35 wins is better than 10 wins which is what this team is going to be. Despite what you're saying now you're not going to want to watch a 10 win team. Last time I checked Aldridge if built around him properly was 3 blown games away from a 50 win season so to say he could only lead a 35 in team is false considering that it's never happened.

[DPG21920]

They are a 35 win team now with him

[DPG21920]

You’re either good or bad. I don’t personally care about being less bad. Especially When that also coincides with a downward trajectory

[rascal]

The Spurs would have a losing record with any combination starting on the team. they are just not very good so accept that. No star players on the team. This year is different than last year. The Spurs have changed some but many other teams have also changed and even moreso. The league changes every year so do not compare last year's squeaking into the playoffs with falling short this year.

[tbdog]

Forbes and Lyles. I can live with Lyles as a minute eater, but your starting two underwhelming players in the west. Obviously Spurs tried to obtain a starting PF, (Gay, Carroll, Morris), but it didn't pan out.

[MultiTroll]

1. Popped

2. Forbes

Derosians D is pathetic but his O is often excellent and almost always at least above average. Terrible scheme by "Light Years Behind" Grandpa.

[Mugen]

Pop is the reason, bruh. No need to overthink things.

[JeffDuncan]

I thought about that before I made the thread and was aware of the numbers, but considering DeRozan is not a 3-point shooter, is that maybe the reason why Pop plays Forbes with him? ...



Oh, absolutely. I can't read Pop's mind, but - to my own satisfaction - I'm absolutely certain that Pop starts Bryn so there'll be 3pt shooting from the guard/SF positions. Bryn is Pop's "gunslinger." If DDR shot 3s at a high enough volume, with a good %, I don't think Bryn would start.

Pop doesn't start Mills, because he wants Patty to be his high-energy "juice" player with the bench. It has to be admitted, Patty is pretty good at that. Forbes couldn't begin to energize the bench the way our favorite Wombat does.

So, on offense, it makes sense to start Forbes. Yes, he can provide 3pt shooting. The trouble being, as we know, offense is only half the game.


...
And playing 2 bad defenders makes the defense look like swiss cheese. Not saying you are wrong, I just wanted to throw the question in the room.



Oh, sure. With Forbes, it's like he's trying to invent new ways to be a bad defender. Such as, standing there ball watching, while the guy he's supposed to cover runs behind him, more than halfway across the court, totally unguarded. To cite just one recent example.

With DDR, I think it's that he finds defense tedious. It bores him to run around the court without the ball. He has defensive lapses because he can't help thinking ahead to the next time he'll have the ball, and a chance to shoot. My theory, fwiw.

Anyway, yeah, that's what Murray deals with, and LMA and Lyles, on the defensive end. There's Forbes, who's inept, and DDR, who just wants the ball back. That's my view of it.

[Chinook]

Of course not. DeRozan hasn't been on a minus-.500 team since 13-14. The roster around him is terrible or at least struggling, and that's hurting the team more.

On the spacing thing, Pop still does seem to think about the three as a threat to open up the two. Most if not all other teams think of it as the opposite. Therefore, he's going to favor guys who score best from two to be the main stars and leave three-pointers to the complimentary players. The solution to addressing DMDR's lack of three-point shooting is to get him to shoot more threes, not to put someone next to him to shoot for him. Spacing in the traditional sense was more important back when teams' goal was to shrink the court and guard the middle. But it's evolved from static spacing into more dynamic gravity. For DeRozan, his gravity drops off pretty firmly after he goes behind the line. That changes how teams defend him in a way that having shooters doesn't make up for. Most modern stars, including even Aldridge, can bend a defense anywhere inside the hashes. DeRozan can't, so it makes him much easier to gameplan for. Add in how easy it is to get in his head, and it makes for a player to often under performs his talent level.

[KimmyGib]

One difference between this year and last which doesn't really get talked about, is Aldridge's regression. Not even putting him down, he's just getting older, and I'd still call him the Spurs best player. But there were so many games in the last 2 years where he carried the team on his back. And while he still does his part, he can't really carry the team anymore.

[ZeusWillJudge]

:pop: "We have a losing record because their shots have been going in a ours haven't. It's not complicated."

[Prime BEEF]

35 wins is better than 10 wins which is what this team is going to be. Despite what you're saying now you're not going to want to watch a 10 win team. Last time I checked Aldridge if built around him properly was 3 blown games away from a 50 win season so to say he could only lead a 35 in team is false considering that it's never happened.
Bullshit

This team would win more than 10 games w/o DDR and LMA

[itzsoweezee]

Demar is not an effective NBA player. That's a simple fact. That is exactly why the Spurs should have moved on from him the past off season.

This team was going to be bad regardless (an 8 seed at best) because DeMar was made a focal point. Popovich simply made matters worse, because he's a senile idiot.

[itzsoweezee]

Bullshit

This team would win more than 10 games w/o DDR and LMA

Take LMA out of that statement and I agree with you. LMA is still an effective big man, even with his shortcomings. DeMar is just all around bad at the things that matter and good at things that don't matter.

[Collins21]

Take LMA out of that statement and I agree with you. LMA is still an effective big man, even with his shortcomings. DeMar is just all around bad at the things that matter and good at things that don't matter.

You have people saying LA can't lead a team to more than 35 wins which is flagrantly wrong.

[Collins21]

Bullshit

This team would win more than 10 games w/o DDR and LMA

Ok maybe 15 wins.

[DPG21920]

Of course not. DeRozan hasn't been on a minus-.500 team since 13-14. The roster around him is terrible or at least struggling, and that's hurting the team more.

On the spacing thing, Pop still does seem to think about the three as a threat to open up the two. Most if not all other teams think of it as the opposite. Therefore, he's going to favor guys who score best from two to be the main stars and leave three-pointers to the complimentary players. The solution to addressing DMDR's lack of three-point shooting is to get him to shoot more threes, not to put someone next to him to shoot for him. Spacing in the traditional sense was more important back when teams' goal was to shrink the court and guard the middle. But it's evolved from static spacing into more dynamic gravity. For DeRozan, his gravity drops off pretty firmly after he goes behind the line. That changes how teams defend him in a way that having shooters doesn't make up for. Most modern stars, including even Aldridge, can bend a defense anywhere inside the hashes. DeRozan can't, so it makes him much easier to gameplan for. Add in how easy it is to get in his head, and it makes for a player to often under performs his talent level.

Good post

[JeffDuncan]

The Spurs are currently 10th in the league in Offensive Rating, ORtg. There are 9 teams in the league that are better on the offensive end.

The Spurs are currently 25th in Defensive Rating, DRtg. 24 teams are better, defensively.

It's lack of defense that is causing the losing record, folks.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Forbes/Pop and Demar stunting the growth of the young 3

What "Young 3"? All 3 of those guys are scared to death of offensive responsibility. Them not wanting to step up is the real problem Patfo didn't see coming.

[Ozballer]

Good point. However, didn't DeRozan ball was good enough to get the Raptors in the playoffs consistently? I think it is the drop of LMA and White. Those two were a hell of a lot better last year. Particularly DW who was surprisingly carrying the vets for many games last season. Not so this year.

[SayTown]

The consensus and what I think Pop has said is that White and Murray haven't worked because of the lack of spacing it would create on offense so they are unplayable together. Although any combination of Forbes, Marco, and Mills is unplayable because of their traffic cone defense but that doesn't stop Pop from rolling them out together so there is no excuse not to play White and Murray together.

[RC_Drunkford]

Good point. However, didn't DeRozan ball was good enough to get the Raptors in the playoffs consistently? I think it is the drop of LMA and White. Those two were a hell of a lot better last year. Particularly DW who was surprisingly carrying the vets for many games last season. Not so this year.

true, but the one that really dropped off is Rudy


One difference between this year and last which doesn't really get talked about, is Aldridge's regression. Not even putting him down, he's just getting older, and I'd still call him the Spurs best player. But there were so many games in the last 2 years where he carried the team on his back. And while he still does his part, he can't really carry the team anymore.

again I think the main difference is Rudy Gay turning from the 3rd best player to unplayable. Aldridge hasn't regressed much, he shoots 1% less cause he shoots more 3s, his blocks have increased and he averages about 1 rebound and 2 points less than last year. That's minimal

[poopbox]

Pop isn't going to stop starting Forbes because DeRozan is taking a break for two games. And Forbes doesn't need the ball in his hands like White and Murray do to be effective.

White, Murray and DeRozan all need the ball in their hands and can't forget about Ma Touches. I'm still counting one basketball out there.

What exactly is Forbes effective at ? Outside of being the worst defender in the nba ?

[poopbox]

Another major problem is that we replaced all of Bertans 3 point shooting with nothing. Lyles doesn't shoot it as well and Carroll doesn't even play.

So we replaced a top 7 3 point shooter with pretty much nothing...those points don't exist anymore...the spacing he provided doesn't exist anymore...the matchup problems he caused don't exist anymore...etc

[KobesAchilles]

DeRozan is a problem but he isn’t THE problem. The problem is that we don’t have a 3&D wing player that plays SF. Even if we got rid of DeRozan this year we would still suck bc Forbes would still be starting. Pop being in love with Forbes is problem #2. I mean no matter the numbers, the no defense, the turnovers, even a bad shooting night, Pop will start Forbes and more than likely insert him in the 4th quarter to close the game. For some reason, Pop has tied his coaching chops to Forbes. Lyles and Gay are problems 3&4 respectively. They aren’t scoring at a good clip, they don’t play any real defense, and they aren’t having an positive impact most nights. Like when is the last time Gay had a good game defensively? And then it’s Demar and his no shooting 3 ass

[Floyd Pacquiao]

What "Young 3"? All 3 of those guys are scared to death of offensive responsibility. Them not wanting to step up is the real problem Patfo didn't see coming.

They looked better the last 2 games derozan wasn't their to play iso ball

[XDT76]

What "Young 3"? All 3 of those guys are scared to death of offensive responsibility. Them not wanting to step up is the real problem Patfo didn't see coming.

It could be a coincidence but White and Murray numbers look quite decent when DDR is out

[John B]

Unfortunately yes. If Spurs could find a true 3 and D would make the rotation much better. Lonnie can be that guy, but he needs to consistently hit those open 3's

[UncleDennis]

What "Young 3"? All 3 of those guys are scared to death of offensive responsibility. Them not wanting to step up is the real problem Patfo didn't see coming.

So true, and extremely frustrating. We would all get annoyed with the icy part of Danny Green's game but the solace in it was that we knew no matter what his D was always there. White and Murray are like Icy to mild, they can pretty much be complete ghosts. Great tools, no consistency. I don't think we can completely give up on them until we see what they do when the rubber meets the road and they get the responsibilities Aldridge and Demar carry now.

The championships for the foreseeable future will belong in LA one way or another, we'd pretty much need a Klay Thompson clone to solve the issues with the starting unit as presently constructed and that's not happening so if they are going to move on from La, Demar etc they might as well get it over with but even with that this roster is just a mishmash of the unwanted; Gay, Belinelli, Lyles, you have the Demare fiasco, even a reset isn't an easy proposition.

This hole is about to break ground into china.

[emanueldavidginobili]

:pop:

Spoelstra would have this same exact team in the playoffs

[dbestpro]

Now ask about Forbes ball.

[all_heart]

This team can't close out games.. last 7-8 minutes of the game is where it falls apart. They can't make the necessary stops and nobody can make a basket under defensive pressure. They are too soft.