Cowboys sign Andy Dalton

[Joey Gallo]

:lmao

[Millennial_Messiah]

Starting quarterback, IMO.

[Chris]

Great signing cheap :tu

[Chris]

Andy Dalton, 32, has been to 3 Pro Bowls. He has a career record of 70-61-2 as a starter. He’s had 20 comebacks and 25 game-winning drives.

[jeebus]

Best backup Dallas has had since FNC.

[benefactor]

The most Dallas move ever. Jesus the two franchises in this state are dysfunctional shitshows

[Blake]

^ yup typical Jerry move to sign/draft a Dallas/big 12 area qb.

[FrostKing]

Is Dak superior than the yearly veteran released/unsigned?

If not then just sign one every few years. Rodgers available soon...

[phxspurfan]

Great signing, cya Dak


Red Rifle Era begins


also RIP AJ Green

[slick'81]

Great signing for bigD

[BackHome]

Very good signing good QB and high character guy definitely will not rock the boat.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Very good signing good QB and high character guy definitely will not rock the boat.

He's instantly the best quarterback on the team.

Maybe this is Tennessee Tannehill last year, 2.0 version.

[Joey Gallo]

:lmao signing this trash and pissing your star QB off in the process

[Millennial_Messiah]

:lmao signing this trash and pissing your star QB off in the process

:lmao calling the 4th round comp pick gay hip twerker a "star"

[spurraider21]

very good pickup, and instantly one of the best backup QBs in the league. getting him for 3 mil is great, the raiders paid more than twice that for mariota as a luxury backup. the cheap winston deal, and fact that Cam is still available, makes the raiders move look even more stupid in restrospect

worst QB move of the offseason was the bears trading a pick fo Nick Foles and his guaranteed contract (even though Jags ate a lot of the cap hit as they absorb all the signing bonus money)

[Spurs Homer]

Who?

[Blake]

He's instantly the best quarterback on the team.

Maybe this is Tennessee Tannehill last year, 2.0 version.

Jerrah loves the ginger qbs, gonna groom this one for the 2025 HC position.

[slick'81]

Jerrah loves the ginger qbs, gonna groom this one for the 2025 HC position.

Nope. That job goes to cooper rush,tbh

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

bye dax

[KobesAchilles]

Jerry should just get rid of Dak and tank for Lawerence. Dude only has one other team to outlose and that Jax. It would be the smartest thing Jerry does since hiring Jimmy

[Mark Celibate]

talk about out of left field tbh

[Millennial_Messiah]

bye dax

We'll never forget zack prescot tbh

[Millennial_Messiah]

Jerry should just get rid of Dak and tank for Lawerence. Dude only has one other team to outlose and that Jax. It would be the smartest thing Jerry does since hiring Jimmy

CAR and LAC are going to be terrible, possibly among the worst in the NFL. Partly due to playing in stacked divisions. Possibly even LAR too since they're top heavy with minimal supporting talented and a below average QB taking up 20% of the cap.

Tank? Dalton with this Cowboy roster is easily good for 10-6 or better. Think Tannehill 2.0 replacing Mariota (Dak). He's miles better and more experienced than Prescott.

Dalton is a very similar player to Tannehill. Accurate arm when not under constant pressure, and just mobile enough for today's NFL. Had some early success, got a decent (not top tier) second contract, then got replaced by old team when the bottom fell out, went to a different team with a QB on his last year of 5 year deal, and replaced him and led them to the championship game, where they had a double digit lead.

[spurraider21]

cowboys are going to be a decent/solid team, anywhere between 7-10 wins.

the dalton signing doesnt signal anything about Dak. he's a high end backup and is reasonably cheap given that. this is like when the colts brought in hasselbeck to backup luck

[Millennial_Messiah]

cowboys are going to be a decent/solid team, anywhere between 7-10 wins.

the dalton signing doesnt signal anything about Dak. he's a high end backup and is reasonably cheap given that. this is like when the colts brought in hasselbeck to backup luck

that's more of a "mediocre" range than decent. decent is more like 9-11 range. Remember anything less than 9 wins is a failure because the previous HC was a chronic 8-8 every year with a well above average roster. This roster is built to win now. The OL are in their prime right now. Elliott is a cap casualty in 2 years. They'll also eventually have to choose between Cooper and Gallup, though McCarthy has been known for keeping 3 expensive WRs in Green Bay... so that means cuts elsewhere, perhaps ILB (a notorious gaping hole in the McCarthy Packers era).

[spurraider21]

that's more of a "mediocre" range than decent. decent is more like 9-11 range. Remember anything less than 9 wins is a failure because the previous HC was a chronic 8-8 every year with a well above average roster. This roster is built to win now. The OL are in their prime right now. Elliott is a cap casualty in 2 years. They'll also eventually have to choose between Cooper and Gallup, though McCarthy has been known for keeping 3 expensive WRs in Green Bay... so that means cuts elsewhere, perhaps ILB (a notorious gaping hole in the McCarthy Packers era).
i dont care about the semantics of mediocre vs decent :lol... i gave you my projected win range.

the roster on offense is just fine, and it wasn't really the issue last year. they should be at least as good if not better than we've seen in recent years. i think their defense will be problematic.

[Millennial_Messiah]

i dont care about the semantics of mediocre vs decent :lol... i gave you my projected win range.

the roster on offense is just fine, and it wasn't really the issue last year. they should be at least as good if not better than we've seen in recent years. i think their defense will be problematic.

special teams, moreso than defense, cost them last year... and the offense's inability to move the ball in late game clutch-drive situations cost them no less than 4 games (Saints, Vikings, Patriots, Eagles). Prescott just isn't clutch.

[spurraider21]

special teams, moreso than defense, cost them last year... and the offense's inability to move the ball in late game clutch-drive situations cost them no less than 4 games (Saints, Vikings, Patriots, Eagles). Prescott just isn't clutch.
defense will be worse this year than last year, is what i'm saying

offense will be fine, Dak will get paid.

[Millennial_Messiah]

defense will be worse this year than last year, is what i'm saying

offense will be fine, Dak will get paid.

I don't know about worse. If LVE, Aldob Smith, Randy Gregory, (Crawford hopefully will be cap cut), the rookie DT, Aldon Smith, and the new rookie CBs (who actually are tall, long AND get INTs unlike Byron No-Ball Jones) do better... also Ha-Ha Clinton Dix is a big upgrade at starting safety. You can have Jeff Heath, he's lousy at everything except special teams.

Can't pay $30+ million a year long term to a 4th round talent QB who goes 0/4 in late game do-or-die drives (in his CONTRACT year, no less). No, sir. Hell no.

[Blake]

Tank? Dalton with this Cowboy roster is easily good for 10-6 or better. Think Tannehill 2.0 replacing Mariota (Dak). He's miles better and more experienced than Prescott.


:lol

[Millennial_Messiah]

:lol

did Dak fuck your wife, tbh?

[gambit1990]

solid move tbh. i always hated the bengals.

semi surprised the patriots didn't take a flyer on him.

[spurraider21]

I don't know about worse. If LVE, Aldob Smith, Randy Gregory, (Crawford hopefully will be cap cut), the rookie DT, Aldon Smith, and the new rookie CBs (who actually are tall, long AND get INTs unlike Byron No-Ball Jones) do better... also Ha-Ha Clinton Dix is a big upgrade at starting safety. You can have Jeff Heath, he's lousy at everything except special teams.

Can't pay $30+ million a year long term to a 4th round talent QB who goes 0/4 in late game do-or-die drives (in his CONTRACT year, no less). No, sir. Hell no.
Ha-Ha is nice. will replace heath. better as a coverage safety, not as good in the box.

you have aldon smith written twice, and he hasn't played for several years. he's over 30. gregory also didnt play last year and was ok but nothing special in 2018. he's also going to be 28 soon, so he's not some young pup thats going to develop much. i dont think either guy can adequately replace what you're losing in Quinn.

gerald mccoy does replace maliek collins

rookie corners go through growing pains, and nobody they got can reasonably be expected to be anywhere near as good this season as Byron Jones was last season

defense will be an issue

[Mark Celibate]

expecting anything from Randy Gregory would be like expecting anything from Greg Oden tbh. You just know it's only a matter of time before he gets suspended again imo.

It's a shame, because when he has played he's actually been pretty effective which is shocking due to the fact that he's only played in like 10% of their regular season games since he's been drafted.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Ha-Ha is nice. will replace heath. better as a coverage safety, not as good in the box.

you have aldon smith written twice, and he hasn't played for several years. he's over 30. gregory also didnt play last year and was ok but nothing special in 2018. he's also going to be 28 soon, so he's not some young pup thats going to develop much. i dont think either guy can adequately replace what you're losing in Quinn.

gerald mccoy does replace maliek collins

rookie corners go through growing pains, and nobody they got can reasonably be expected to be anywhere near as good this season as Byron Jones was last season

defense will be an issue
McCoy and Poe are far better than Collins and Woods, and Gallimore is expected to be Collins' long term replacement. Fine there. I agree Aldon Smith isn't the 19 sack a year terror he was before the suspensions but he could be able to replace Quinn. Gregory was better than Quinn overall in 2018, similar sack rate on a per game basis and better against the run, a handful of bad untimely penalties though. I don't think Quinn is a great starter, he's a great situational pass rusher but that's it.

As far as the secondary, Clinton-Dix is better overall than Heath; though he had maybe the most polarizing game in NFL playoff history for that position in the Jan 2015 championship game at Seattle. Can be kind of a jeckyll and hyde player. Heath sucked both in coverage and in the box, let's not act like he was a Kam Chancellor against the run either. Guys ran thru him all the time and he was the "spy" guy who gave up the playoff loss-sealing first down on 3rd & long to .....Jared Goff with his legs of all people.

Chidobe Awuzie and Jourdan Lewis are both on contract years. Lewis is the better pure CB of the two and he'll finally get to be a full time starter. Awuzie should play more of a Tyrann Mathieu role since he is much more of a zone, blitzing and great tackling guy for his size but tends to lose pretty consistently in man coverage.

[Millennial_Messiah]

expecting anything from Randy Gregory would be like expecting anything from Greg Oden tbh. You just know it's only a matter of time before he gets suspended again imo.

It's a shame, because when he has played he's actually been pretty effective which is shocking due to the fact that he's only played in like 10% of their regular season games since he's been drafted.
I thought that same thing going into the 2018 season.......... but he was actually legitimately good that year. If not for the ill-timed penalties, like the annoying encroachment on 3rd & 4, the roughing the punter on 4th & 13, etc. he could have been considered better than just "good".

He still has time to be a pro bowler and his mileage and physical wear and tear is low, think Grant Hill who had a later prime... Jason Peters in Philly, etc. And it's been suspensions, not injuries, that has kept him off the field. He's not going to have the DeMarcus Ware / Von Miller like career that he was capable of prior to the suspensions, but he can still be a force.

[spurraider21]

McCoy and Poe are far better than Collins and Woods, and Gallimore is expected to be Collins' long term replacement. Fine there. I agree Aldon Smith isn't the 19 sack a year terror he was before the suspensions but he could be able to replace Quinn. Gregory was better than Quinn overall in 2018, similar sack rate on a per game basis and better against the run, a handful of bad untimely penalties though. I don't think Quinn is a great starter, he's a great situational pass rusher but that's it.

As far as the secondary, Clinton-Dix is better overall than Heath; though he had maybe the most polarizing game in NFL playoff history for that position in the Jan 2015 championship game at Seattle. Can be kind of a jeckyll and hyde player. Heath sucked both in coverage and in the box, let's not act like he was a Kam Chancellor against the run either. Guys ran thru him all the time and he was the "spy" guy who gave up the playoff loss-sealing first down on 3rd & long to .....Jared Goff with his legs of all people.

Chidobe Awuzie and Jourdan Lewis are both on contract years. Lewis is the better pure CB of the two and he'll finally get to be a full time starter. Awuzie should play more of a Tyrann Mathieu role since he is much more of a zone, blitzing and great tackling guy for his size but tends to lose pretty consistently in man coverage.
talk about hyperbole

theres a wide gap between Ha-Ha and Kam Chancellor as it relates to run support

Heath was out of his depths as a full time starter, imo, but there are things he does better than Ha-Ha. he typically graded out serviceably with PFF, and last season was #1 in the league in tackling efficiency (least missed tackles relative to tackle opportunities) among safeties. heath will be a special teamer for us and backup SS to Jonathan Abram

[BackHome]

This is not a super bowl team to many issues on defense and Dak is not a top 5 quarterback. Add to the fact that he just lost his brother to suicide is going to make it real tough on him and his family. I wouldn’t be surprised if he just wants a change of scenery and asks for a trade.

[KobesAchilles]

Dallas is doing some stupid shit tbh. Paying Zeke the new contract after he boycotted the offseason. If you were gonna pay him anyways, might as well have had him involved in offseason work outs and OTA. Paying that defensive guy like $110 for no reason. 100 million for Cooper :lol The guy is a quitter. Franchising Dak is the only smart move he’s done. Cowboys ain’t going anywhere this year now that Fredrick retired.

[Millennial_Messiah]

This is not a super bowl team to many issues on defense and Dak is not a top 5 quarterback. Add to the fact that he just lost his brother to suicide is going to make it real tough on him and his family. I wouldn’t be surprised if he just wants a change of scenery and asks for a trade.

And I'd grant it to him. Trade him + a 4th round comp pick to Jacksonville for next year's 1st, he'll get to stay in a state with no state income taxes and remain close to the family he has left.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Dallas is doing some stupid shit tbh. Paying Zeke the new contract after he boycotted the offseason. If you were gonna pay him anyways, might as well have had him involved in offseason work outs and OTA. Paying that defensive guy like $110 for no reason. 100 million for Cooper :lol The guy is a quitter. Franchising Dak is the only smart move he’s done. Cowboys ain’t going anywhere this year now that Fredrick retired.
Eh, Frederick hasn't been really above average for a starting center since 2016. He's been injured or ill ever since and it was his time to go... Too soon indeed, but Looney was just fine in 2018 and we drafted his long term replacement in Biadasz who went to the same school as Frederick and was ranked as the #1 center in college football until he got hurt last year and guys like Ruiz stated becoming names

[Millennial_Messiah]

talk about hyperbole

theres a wide gap between Ha-Ha and Kam Chancellor as it relates to run support

Heath was out of his depths as a full time starter, imo, but there are things he does better than Ha-Ha. he typically graded out serviceably with PFF, and last season was #1 in the league in tackling efficiency (least missed tackles relative to tackle opportunities) among safeties. heath will be a special teamer for us and backup SS to Jonathan Abram

Heath kicks ass on special teams, blocked a punt or two and he's knocked out several guys, including almost literally killing Seattle's first Lockette in the same calendar year he got Malcolm Butlered. But he's godawful at defense. Don't know what PFF was looking at last year but his angles in run support are atrocious, he's solid at making tackles AFTER a nice catch for a first down (I'll give him credit for that) but he's an absolute matador in zone, and don't ask him to be a spy either. Hope Abram gets healthy, I guess.

But hey, he made Carr fumble in the endzone at the end of a game near the end of a meaningless regular season for both sides so that's cool I guess.

HHCD.. is...polarizing. He'll make the most fantastic acrobatic interceptions and then, in same game watch an absolute gimme pick go right through his hands, or stare at a rainbow fadeaway prayer on a 2 point conversion attempt and simply watch the tight end catch it instead of making a play on the ball to at least break it up (or, ya know, actually catch it, take it back for 2 the other way and win the game).

[spurraider21]

Heath kicks ass on special teams, blocked a punt or two and he's knocked out several guys, including almost literally killing Seattle's first Lockette in the same calendar year he got Malcolm Butlered. But he's godawful at defense. Don't know what PFF was looking at last year but his angles in run support are atrocious, he's solid at making tackles AFTER a nice catch for a first down (I'll give him credit for that) but he's an absolute matador in zone, and don't ask him to be a spy either. Hope Abram gets healthy, I guess.

But hey, he made Carr fumble in the endzone at the end of a game near the end of a meaningless regular season for both sides so that's cool I guess.

HHCD.. is...polarizing. He'll make the most fantastic acrobatic interceptions and then, in same game watch an absolute gimme pick go right through his hands, or stare at a rainbow fadeaway prayer on a 2 point conversion attempt and simply watch the tight end catch it instead of making a play on the ball to at least break it up (or, ya know, actually catch it, take it back for 2 the other way and win the game).
Abram is fine. it was a shoulder injury, not something like an achilles/hamstring/ankle/back that would have you worried about his recovery 8 months later. the question is if he's a real player. still unproven. first round pick who got hurt during his first game. still, he's the presumptive starter and Heath is the backup SS and will be a special teamer first. and if we have another injury and have to trot Heath out there, he's still serviceable, not a disaster waiting to happen

Ha Ha has good ball skills which is why he's a playmaker but he's not a very explosive athlete. that's why he's inconsistent.

[slick'81]

Bye bye cooper rush

[Millennial_Messiah]

Abram is fine. it was a shoulder injury, not something like an achilles/hamstring/ankle/back that would have you worried about his recovery 8 months later. the question is if he's a real player. still unproven. first round pick who got hurt during his first game. still, he's the presumptive starter and Heath is the backup SS and will be a special teamer first. and if we have another injury and have to trot Heath out there, he's still serviceable, not a disaster waiting to happen

Ha Ha has good ball skills which is why he's a playmaker but he's not a very explosive athlete. that's why he's inconsistent.
HHCD is a well above average athlete (not a freak like Derwin James, but well above average athlete) for a safety, and as you mentioned great ball skills, that's why he was taken in the mid-1st in 2014, well before the spot Abram was taken last year. Heath was either a late pick or undrafted IIRC. So it's a massive upgrade in any case.

Still getting Abram back will be an upgrade for the Raiders over anyone they had last year. Still should have picked Jeudy if they wanted a more true Antonio Brown replacement. They had Antonio Brown and Deandre Hopkins prototypes on the board and they picked JJ Nelson. Eh

[SpursforSix]

Dallas is doing some stupid shit tbh. Paying Zeke the new contract after he boycotted the offseason. If you were gonna pay him anyways, might as well have had him involved in offseason work outs and OTA. Paying that defensive guy like $110 for no reason. 100 million for Cooper :lol The guy is a quitter. Franchising Dak is the only smart move he’s done. Cowboys ain’t going anywhere this year now that Fredrick retired.

It'll probably be hard to definitively prove this because he'll do fine and time will pass. But this was the worst move they've made in terms of value for a player and how it affects the other players you can't add.
What makes it worse is that they just had several examples of why you don't do this. The big 2 being Gurley and Johnson.

I don't mind the Cooper signing. If you're committing to Dak, you need someone who can get open. And Cooper's one of the best route runners. Dak needs big windows and Cooper is among the best at getting open. And they have some outs with his salary. I don't think Cooper is a quitter. I just think he comes across as not giving a fuck. And I think the injuries last year did hold him back.

[Millennial_Messiah]

It'll probably be hard to definitively prove this because he'll do fine and time will pass. But this was the worst move they've made in terms of value for a player and how it affects the other players you can't add.
What makes it worse is that they just had several examples of why you don't do this. The big 2 being Gurley and Johnson.

I don't mind the Cooper signing. If you're committing to Dak, you need someone who can get open. And Cooper's one of the best route runners. Dak needs big windows and Cooper is among the best at getting open. And they have some outs with his salary. I don't think Cooper is a quitter. I just think he comes across as not giving a fuck. And I think the injuries last year did hold him back.

& the counter-example being the Steelers doing just fine when they had to replace Bell (but not Brown AND their starting rapey QB).

Zeke will do fine, but realistically how much should you pay a guy who runs for 4.x YPC and isn't a real home run threat that he was in 2016 before the suspensions.

[spurraider21]

HHCD is a well above average athlete (not a freak like Derwin James, but well above average athlete) for a safety, and as you mentioned great ball skills, that's why he was taken in the mid-1st in 2014, well before the spot Abram was taken last year. Heath was either a late pick or undrafted IIRC. So it's a massive upgrade in any case.
By what measure is he well above average?

Still getting Abram back will be an upgrade for the Raiders over anyone they had last year. Still should have picked Jeudy if they wanted a more true Antonio Brown replacement. They had Antonio Brown and Deandre Hopkins prototypes on the board and they picked JJ Nelson. Eh
Pretty disingenuous to use the ceilings for jeudy/lamb but the floor for Ruggs in your analysis

[SpursforSix]

& the counter-example being the Steelers doing just fine when they had to replace Bell (but not Brown AND their starting rapey QB).

Zeke will do fine, but realistically how much should you pay a guy who runs for 4.x YPC and isn't a real home run threat that he was in 2016 before the suspensions.

This is actually a pretty accurate post. And there's many examples of decent RBs putting up good numbers behind the right O-line or in the right scheme. It's just not a position you have to pay for.
And on the other side, if you have a shitty O-line, no running back in the world is going to make a big enough difference to make up for it.
The extra money you have to pay a top 3 back doesn't correlate to being a top 3 running team.

[Millennial_Messiah]

This is actually a pretty accurate post. And there's many examples of decent RBs putting up good numbers behind the right O-line or in the right scheme. It's just not a position you have to pay for.
And on the other side, if you have a shitty O-line, no running back in the world is going to make a big enough difference to make up for it.
The extra money you have to pay a top 3 back doesn't correlate to being a top 3 running team.

Exactly. Unless you're playing Madden ultimate team where you can run side to side every time with a 98 overall running back with 63 overall offensive linemen and save salary cap room. But in the real NFL you have to have the blocking. Cowboys have one of the best OL's in football with 3 legit pro bowlers. Pollard rushed for well over 100 yards on a reasonably low amount of carries the only game of the season he got actual playing time. And he was drafted in the 4th round.

Ramsey, Jack, or trade back.... was my motto going into Spring 2016. One team ended up somehow with both Ramsey and Jack. We picked before them and instead ended up with a halfback with off field drama who was amazing his rookie year and has been just above average ever since, nothing super special.

Imagine if we had had Ramsey instead for roughly the same second-contract price. And serviceable RBs like the ones the Patriots, Chiefs and other teams use behind our elite OL. Would have been much better financial business management.

[DeadlyDynasty]

This makes it harder, but I will always root for Andy Dalton no matter what.

[Millennial_Messiah]

This makes it harder, but I will always root for Andy Dalton no matter what.

why does it make it harder? and why still root for him, it's not like the tyrod team did anything with that. and y'all had a much better team last year than that year.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Pretty disingenuous to use the ceilings for jeudy/lamb but the floor for Ruggs in your analysis

who'd you expect me to compare him to, desean jackson? tyreek hill? Ruggs isn't really a great deep threat even for his speed, but to succeed in the NFL he'll have to learn... because at his small frame he's going to need to take advantage of his speed to get separation as much as possible... the slants over the middle he caught at Bama will quickly get him injured by NFL linebackers waiting in those shorter 11/1 o'clock zones to deliver a punishing blow

[spurraider21]

who'd you expect me to compare him to, desean jackson? tyreek hill? Ruggs isn't really a great deep threat even for his speed, but to succeed in the NFL he'll have to learn... because at his small frame he's going to need to take advantage of his speed to get separation as much as possible... the slants over the middle he caught at Bama will quickly get him injured by NFL linebackers waiting in those shorter 11/1 o'clock zones to deliver a punishing blow
dont care how you want to rationalize it, but you compared ceilings of 2 guys (jeudy is nowhere near as physical as AB) to the floor of the 3rd is disingenuous no matter how you slice it

i was on record before the draft that i prefer both judy and lamb to ruggs, not trying to say ruggs is the better prospect. but calling him a JJ Nelson comp is absurd

[Millennial_Messiah]

dont care how you want to rationalize it, but you compared ceilings of 2 guys (jeudy is nowhere near as physical as AB) to the floor of the 3rd is disingenuous no matter how you slice it

i was on record before the draft that i prefer both judy and lamb to ruggs, not trying to say ruggs is the better prospect. but calling him a JJ Nelson comp is absurd
I wouldn't say JJ Nelson is a floor, there's also Dri Archer and John Ross who have had worse careers.

John Brown? better comparison?

[spurraider21]

I wouldn't say JJ Nelson is a floor, there's also Dri Archer and John Ross who have had worse careers.

John Brown? better comparison?
small black fast guy. great comparisons! do you actually watch these guys play at all? just say no and move on.

:lmao dri archer

[Millennial_Messiah]

small black fast guy. great comparisons! do you actually watch these guys play at all? just say no and move on.

:lmao dri archer

John Ross yeah I've seen him play quite a bit. Archer barely played but he was supposed to be the goat Z receiver by the way Avante talked him up.

Ruggs has to be a Z receiver or perhaps a slot to make it given his size, speed and stature. But to be a Z receiver, aka the guy the OC sends deep almost every play if nothing else as a decoy, there's an art to it... it's more than just having a fast top speed. You have to sell the comeback the way DJax and Tyreek do it. Otherwise the corners do nothing but sag off and don't really respect the guy to do anything but run a deep nine. Not to mention a deep threat archetype receiver is probably the worst scheme fit for Carr. But like you said he ran slants... won't work at his size in the NFL (unless the LBs are playing a stupidly wide technique for some reason), but perhaps running drags might if he can get horizontal leverage on the CB and stay under the LBs. We'll see.

[spurraider21]

John Ross yeah I've seen him play quite a bit. Archer barely played but he was supposed to be the goat Z receiver by the way Avante talked him up.
:lmao dri archer was a running back


Ruggs has to be a Z receiver or perhaps a slot to make it given his size, speed and stature. But to be a Z receiver, aka the guy the OC sends deep almost every play if nothing else as a decoy, there's an art to it... it's more than just having a fast top speed. You have to sell the comeback the way DJax and Tyreek do it. Otherwise the corners do nothing but sag off and don't really respect the guy to do anything but run a deep nine. Not to mention a deep threat archetype receiver is probably the worst scheme fit for Carr. But like you said he ran slants... won't work at his size in the NFL (unless the LBs are playing a stupidly wide technique for some reason), but perhaps running drags might if he can get horizontal leverage on the CB and stay under the LBs. We'll see.
:lmao for fucks sake, bro, just stop.

X receiver means you line up at the line of scrimmage
Z receivers means you get to line up off the line of scrimmage (the TE will line up on the line of scrimmage on that side of the line)

Those are their literal definitions.

As for the implications, the X receiver has to deal with jams at the line, while Z gets free releases. that actually means your Z typically gets to run a wider route tree, while the X has to pose a threat to beat the jam corner, either with physicality or winning over the top. they typically run more vertical routes to combat press.

it doesnt necessarily mean one guy is your #1 or #2 receiver. It depends on personnel. While it's not a 100% set thing, Julio typically plays the X for the Falcons because he destroys jam attempts (Ridley is a sharp routerunner and occupies the Z). Same with Hopkins. On the other hand, Cooper almost exclusively has been the Z for the Cowboys (except when he's in the slot). That doesn't mean Cooper only runs vertical routes and decoys :lol. Look at the video below. Cooper almost never lines up directly at the line of scrimmage. That makes him a Z by definition on all those plays.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYKNpg7E9To

On the other hand, Brandin Cooks played almost exclusively the X for the Rams (his speed punishes press coverage) while Woods played the Z despite not having much downfield speed, but his route running made use of the free releases. So your claim that being a fast, vertical route guy makes you a Z, is just a stupid comment as usual.


He fits kind of into any system. This guy can play,” McVay said. “But I think specific to some of the things that we look for with the traits and the characteristics from our ‘X’ receiver: Being able to take the top shelf off the coverage, being able to win on some underneath iso’s when you’re getting bump coverage. He’s put that on tape, really, over the last four years. And that was something that we were really excited about. And when we had the opportunity to potentially acquire him, we wanted to be aggressive about pursuing that.”

For the raiders, Tyrell Williams is currently the X (3rd round pick Bryan Edwards will push him for that spot), while Ruggs will occupy Z. That doesnt dictate his route tree as being purely vertical. In fact, it means he will be asked to run a wider variety of routes.

[Chad.]

I am amazed at some people I know with the incredible depth of knowledge they have about so many sports. It's really PhD-level info on such unimportant stuff

[spurraider21]

I am amazed at some people I know with the incredible depth of knowledge they have about so many sports. It's really PhD-level info on such unimportant stuff
:lol... byproduct of genuine curiosity and having been able to work from home with no kids for more or less the past year

yeah i've probably spent way too much time on the subject, its just funny when people talk out of their ass.

[Blake]

I am amazed at some people I know with the incredible depth of knowledge they have about so many sports. It's really PhD-level info on such unimportant stuff

Maybe I should have grabbed a microscope and learned about vaccines as a kid instead of playing outside and sitting on the couch with Dad on Sundays.

Too late now.

[Millennial_Messiah]

:lol... byproduct of genuine curiosity and having been able to work from home with no kids for more or less the past year

yeah i've probably spent way too much time on the subject, its just funny when people talk out of their ass.

It was a good write up; however, I would argue that size and brute force at WR, not so much speed, is the best attack against press coverage. A smaller fast guy at X usually gets blown up or even pancaked within the 5 yard window by the Sherman's and Ramsey's (formerly, Talib, Mel Blount) of the world.

A guy like Julio, Megatron, Metcalf is ideal for X because of the size AND speed advantage, but in theory if you had to choose one over the other, you pick a Brandon Marshall or Deandre Hopkins over a Tyreek Hill vs. press coverage. You want a Hill either motioning out wide or in the slot to take advantage of his speed and/or quickness, deep option routes, two way shallow/mid option routes, etc... not a face off at the LOS and getting roughed up by a bigger CB1.

Ideally your best route runner guy plays the Y, not so much Z. But if you're running 12 or 21 personnel then he shifts to Z.

[spurraider21]

It was a good write up; however, I would argue that size and brute force at WR, not so much speed, is the best attack against press coverage. A smaller fast guy at X usually gets blown up or even pancaked within the 5 yard window by the Sherman's and Ramsey's (formerly, Talib, Mel Blount) of the world.

A guy like Julio, Megatron, Metcalf is ideal for X because of the size AND speed advantage, but in theory if you had to choose one over the other, you pick a Brandon Marshall or Deandre Hopkins over a Tyreek Hill vs. press coverage. You want a Hill either motioning out wide or in the slot to take advantage of his speed and/or quickness, deep option routes, two way shallow/mid option routes, etc... not a face off at the LOS and getting roughed up by a bigger CB1.

Ideally your best route runner guy plays the Y, not so much Z. But if you're running 12 or 21 personnel then he shifts to Z.
Y is the tight end

keep digging

[Blake]

Ideally your best route runner guy plays the Y, not so much Z. But if you're running 12 or 21 personnel then he shifts to Z.


Y is the tight end

keep digging

:lol

[spurraider21]

:lol
:lol its really funny tbh

it would be like me trying to get into one of baseline bum and BUMP's math conversations while throwing out terms that i'm unfamiliar with

[Chucho]

:lol... byproduct of genuine curiosity and having been able to work from home with no kids for more or less the past year

yeah i've probably spent way too much time on the subject, its just funny when people talk out of their ass.

You lend credence to Andy when you reply to his shit posts with genuine respones. :lol

[Millennial_Messiah]

Y is the tight end

keep digging

no, Y receiver... slot receiver

tight end can be in line, or a Y receiver on either side. In line TE is NOT "Y".

in an 11 formation, yeah you might have a Y receiver on one side and a Y positioned tight end on the other (think a Ertz or any receiving tight end)

but the Y receiver is the slot receiver, often (but not always) on the opposite side of the TE.

in 5 wide for example you might have two Y's (slot WRs/TEs) AND an in line TE or a slightly off line TE... Too many formations to count honestly.

But generally an Edelman/Welker has long been known as a "Y" receiver.

[spurraider21]

the Y is the TE by default. of course, if you have no TE, the terminology can adjust such that your slot receiver becomes the Y. almost every team uses a TE. the teams we have brought up... the cowboys, raiders, rams, texans, chiefs all use them regularly

in order for a formation to be legal, you have to have 7 guys on the line of scrimmage, and the 5 guys on the interior are ineligible. this is your typical 5 OL. you have to have 2 players bookend them on the line of scrimmage, both of whom are eligible receivers. in a typical formation on one side of the line, you have a TE. that is your Y. on the other side of the line, you have your X lined up at the line of scrimmage. the Z typically lines up outside the TE

https://www.dummies.com/wp-content/uploads/283964.image0.jpg

you can also have the Z line up on the left side, usually in the slot. even then, the X and Y are your 2 eligible receivers who line up on the line of scrimmage. for most teams, the Y is almost always a TE.

of course, if you took out the fullback from the picture above and instead added another wide receiver, they would line up in the slot, either by the X or the Z. that player must be OFF the line of scrimmage though (which is why they wouldn't be designated the Y).

some teams like arizona basically dont use TE's. if you decided to have 4 WR or even 5, you still are REQUIRED to have 2 of them line up on the LOS. one of them would be your typical "x" on one side of the line, and the other would be designated the Y even if that player isn't positionally considered a TE. the cardinals with kingsbury ran a LOT of their plays with only 1 RB and 4 WRs, no TE's.

https://i.gyazo.com/93a4d1fcb7df533ee0ad69d84a00044f.jpg

notice how they have 2 receivers on the LOS, and 2 receivers off of it. one of them is the X, the other is the Y.

so yes, many times the Y can be a slot receiver, but thats in situations where the team isn't using a traditional TE. admittedly Y is loosely used to describe anybody not on the boundaries, but like you see in the base formation i showed above, that has generally been TEs

[Millennial_Messiah]

the Y is the TE by default. of course, if you have no TE, the terminology can adjust such that your slot receiver becomes the Y. almost every team uses a TE. the teams we have brought up... the cowboys, raiders, rams, texans, chiefs all use them regularly

in order for a formation to be legal, you have to have 7 guys on the line of scrimmage, and the 5 guys on the interior are ineligible. this is your typical 5 OL. you have to have 2 players bookend them on the line of scrimmage, both of whom are eligible receivers. in a typical formation on one side of the line, you have a TE. that is your Y. on the other side of the line, you have your X lined up at the line of scrimmage. the Z typically lines up outside the TE

https://www.dummies.com/wp-content/uploads/283964.image0.jpg

you can also have the Z line up on the left side, usually in the slot. even then, the X and Y are your 2 eligible receivers who line up on the line of scrimmage. for most teams, the Y is almost always a TE.

of course, if you took out the fullback from the picture above and instead added another wide receiver, they would line up in the slot, either by the X or the Z. that player must be OFF the line of scrimmage though (which is why they wouldn't be designated the Y).

some teams like arizona basically dont use TE's. if you decided to have 4 WR or even 5, you still are REQUIRED to have 2 of them line up on the LOS. one of them would be your typical "x" on one side of the line, and the other would be designated the Y even if that player isn't positionally considered a TE. the cardinals with kingsbury ran a LOT of their plays with only 1 RB and 4 WRs, no TE's.

https://i.gyazo.com/93a4d1fcb7df533ee0ad69d84a00044f.jpg

notice how they have 2 receivers on the LOS, and 2 receivers off of it. one of them is the X, the other is the Y.

so yes, many times the Y can be a slot receiver, but thats in situations where the team isn't using a traditional TE. admittedly Y is loosely used to describe anybody not on the boundaries, but like you see in the base formation i showed above, that has generally been TEs
I agree with your analysis 100%, but the league has been a 11 personnel majority league for at least a decade now, with nickel and/or dime, big dime etc. (sub packages) predominating on defense.

The "base" 21 personnel (which matches a base 4-3 or 3-4 defense) that has always been the standard model of football, just isn't super common anymore, except with a few isolated teams that prefer run over pass like the 49ers and Ravens (the Cowboys in the Jason Garrett era ran 21 and 12 quite a bit as well).

The Edelman's, Welker's of the world are considered Y's most likely because they're always flanked either by another outside WR off the line of scrimmage or a guy like a running back who they can "motion out" as a Z receiver.

[spurraider21]

admittedly a lot of this stuff is archaic and before you called people "wide receivers" they were specifically identified by where they were on the formation.

your "x" receiver who lines up on the LOS was called the Split End
your "z" receiver who lines up off the line was the Flanker
your "y" who lined up on the LOS, usually right by the OL, was called the Tight End
if one of your other guys lined up in the slot, they were called a "slot back"

etc etc. now we've combined split end, flanker, and slot back into "wide receiver" and people just say "i'm a receiver"

so the terminology is somewhat antiquated. still, X/Y/Z have defined meanings based on where a player lines up, and its inaccurate to simply call a slot receiver a Y unless they are lined up on the LOS

[Millennial_Messiah]

admittedly a lot of this stuff is archaic and before you called people "wide receivers" they were specifically identified by where they were on the formation.

your "x" receiver who lines up on the LOS was called the Split End
your "z" receiver who lines up off the line was the Flanker
your "y" who lined up on the LOS, usually right by the OL, was called the Tight End
if one of your other guys lined up in the slot, they were called a "slot back"

etc etc. now we've combined split end, flanker, and slot back into "wide receiver" and people just say "i'm a receiver"

so the terminology is somewhat antiquated. still, X/Y/Z have defined meanings based on where a player lines up, and its inaccurate to simply call a slot receiver a Y unless they are lined up on the LOS
I guess you're technically correct based on that analysis.

But in today's world... it's sort of implied that an X/split end is a big receiver who can out-muscle guys for catches, they may or may not have a speed advantage but they're the best against press coverage. The Z/flanker takes the "top" off the defense with his speed and since he is just behind the LOS he doesn't have to be a big guy but he needs to be fast. And the "Y" is the guy with the two-way option routes lining up somewhere between the boundaries and the OL, whether a slot receiver or a tight end.

In theory, of course.

Now, given all that, can you explain for me the "Spider 2 Y Banana" play? Obviously you'd probably have heard of that one since you're a Raiders fan.

[spurraider21]

I agree with your analysis 100%, but the league has been a 11 personnel majority league for at least a decade now, with nickel and/or dime, big dime etc. (sub packages) predominating on defense.

The "base" 21 personnel (which matches a base 4-3 or 3-4 defense) that has always been the standard model of football, just isn't super common anymore, except with a few isolated teams that prefer run over pass like the 49ers and Ravens (the Cowboys in the Jason Garrett era ran 21 and 12 quite a bit as well).

The Edelman's, Welker's of the world are considered Y's most likely because they're always flanked either by another outside WR off the line of scrimmage or a guy like a running back who they can "motion out" as a Z receiver.
you're right, that the old 21 personnel is largely outdated. but even in the pats system, they ALWAYS used TE's. now they varied formations quite a bit, but this was a very typical look they would run

https://i.gyazo.com/08648edfc78f2d2a969434ba968c67a0.jpg

edelman wouldn't be on the LOS all that often, so it would be technically inaccurate to call him a Y in a formation like this, even though he's in the slot. like i said, admittedly most people nowadays sorta ditched the old terms, call guys wideouts or slots, and sometimes people just loosely call anybody in the slot a Y even though thats supposed to designate a guy on the LOS

[DeadlyDynasty]

why does it make it harder? and why still root for him, it's not like the tyrod team did anything with that. and y'all had a much better team last year than that year.
You’d have to have been a Bills fan your entire life to fully understand it.

[Millennial_Messiah]

You’d have to have been a Bills fan your entire life to fully understand it.

yeah I understand they didn't make the playoffs from 2000-2016, but it's not like 2017 went anywhere except a worse draft pick and an ugly loss to blake bortles.

[Millennial_Messiah]

you're right, that the old 21 personnel is largely outdated. but even in the pats system, they ALWAYS used TE's. now they varied formations quite a bit, but this was a very typical look they would run

https://i.gyazo.com/08648edfc78f2d2a969434ba968c67a0.jpg

edelman wouldn't be on the LOS all that often, so it would be technically inaccurate to call him a Y in a formation like this, even though he's in the slot. like i said, admittedly most people nowadays sorta ditched the old terms, call guys wideouts or slots, and sometimes people just loosely call anybody in the slot a Y even though thats supposed to designate a guy on the LOS
Exactly right. In old school terms Gronk would be the "Y", but most of today's analysts Edelman would be the "Y" and Gronk would be the "in-line tight end" or something like that. Dorsett in this case is the Z, even with the Miami CB closer to him in press than the other Miami CB is to the X; I can't tell who exactly the X receiver is... Gordon?

Patriots also used a lot of 2TE formations in the past, especially when they had Hernandez. In that case who truly is the "Y" if you have both (ineligible) offensive tackles covered by in-line tight ends? In that case, one of the TEs would technically be the "X" unless he's lined up in sort of an H-back technique. But that would be awkward.

[DeadlyDynasty]

yeah I understand they didn't make the playoffs from 2000-2016, but it's not like 2017 went anywhere except a worse draft pick and an ugly loss to blake bortles.
You don’t get it, and you can’t possibly get it unless you were a Bills fan growing up. /thread

[spurraider21]

Exactly right. In old school terms Gronk would be the "Y", but most of today's analysts Edelman would be the "Y" and Gronk would be the "in-line tight end" or something like that. Dorsett in this case is the Z, even with the Miami CB closer to him in press than the other Miami CB is to the X; I can't tell who exactly the X receiver is... Gordon?

Patriots also used a lot of 2TE formations in the past, especially when they had Hernandez. In that case who truly is the "Y" if you have both (ineligible) offensive tackles covered by in-line tight ends? In that case, one of the TEs would technically be the "X" unless he's lined up in sort of an H-back technique. But that would be awkward.
its all good

i think i was just on a roll dunking on you and was having some fun with it tbh :lol

[Millennial_Messiah]

its all good

i think i was just on a roll dunking on you and was having some fun with it tbh :lol

I don't think it was a slam dunk tbh. You're right that in older/most technical core football terms that "Y" would be a guy lined opposite the other tackle from the "X", exactly on the line of scrimmage; while I'm right that modern day terms there are more practical and less technical uses for X, Y, and Z. And while 4wr/5wr teams like Kingsbury's offense can have multiple of each on the same play.

[spurraider21]

I don't think it was a slam dunk tbh. You're right that in older/most technical core football terms that "Y" would be a guy lined opposite the other tackle from the "X", exactly on the line of scrimmage; while I'm right that modern day terms there are more practical and less technical uses for X, Y, and Z. And while 4wr/5wr teams like Kingsbury's offense can have multiple of each on the same play.
i still think your player comps have largely been dogshit, and you were completely wrong on the X/Z thing. the Y is admittedly technical and somewhat pedantic but i was on a roll

[Millennial_Messiah]

i still think your player comps have largely been dogshit, and you were completely wrong on the X/Z thing. the Y is admittedly technical and somewhat pedantic but i was on a roll

who would you compare jeudy and ruggs to, tbh?

[SpursforSix]

who would you compare jeudy and ruggs to, tbh?

Roberto Clemente and Sean Elliott

[spurraider21]

who would you compare jeudy and ruggs to, tbh?
Cooper/Ridley for Jeudy

Santana Moss for Ruggs

[Millennial_Messiah]

Cooper/Ridley for Jeudy

Santana Moss for Ruggs
there is a huge talent gap between Cooper and Ridley, but I like the Moss comparison tbh.

[spurraider21]

there is a huge talent gap between Cooper and Ridley, but I like the Moss comparison tbh.
well they're player comps, not necessarily talent comps. that said you usually use notable players in comps because there is some projection involved

jeudy shows great route running but he's not an explosive athlete, not great catching through contact. not particularly good at going up and getting a contested deep ball.

the raiders are hoping Ruggs becomes their Tyreek, but Tyreek is so unique that it's an unfair and difficult projection to make.

[Millennial_Messiah]

well they're player comps, not necessarily talent comps. that said you usually use notable players in comps because there is some projection involved

jeudy shows great route running but he's not an explosive athlete, not great catching through contact. not particularly good at going up and getting a contested deep ball.

the raiders are hoping Ruggs becomes their Tyreek, but Tyreek is so unique that it's an unfair and difficult projection to make.

Desean Jackson is the OG Tyreek... not sure if there is another one... maybe if Deion Sanders had played offense, but he didn't. Rocket Ismail was that guy for the Cowboys for about a 2 year period in the late 90s before he got hurt and completely fell off the map.

I think Ruggs might be better off as a slot receiver than a deep threat, I wasn't super impressed by his deep catching ability in college despite his speed.

[spurraider21]

Desean Jackson is the OG Tyreek... not sure if there is another one... maybe if Deion Sanders had played offense, but he didn't. Rocket Ismail was that guy for the Cowboys for about a 2 year period in the late 90s before he got hurt and completely fell off the map.

I think Ruggs might be better off as a slot receiver than a deep threat, I wasn't super impressed by his deep catching ability in college despite his speed.
Djax has been the most consistent of this generation. the real OG if you want to get historical is Don Hutson. more contemporary, Cliff Branch in the 70s. steve smith sr is another great one but he was much more all-around.

there have been other deep threats/speed specialists in recent years, just not as consistent or prolific as D-Jax. Guys like Donte Stallworth, Ashlie Lelei... going back farther the cowboys had Bob Hayes. even in todays game you have guys like Cooks, Hollywood Brown, Will Fuller

the raiders dont sound like they plan to use Ruggs as just a deep guy, that's not even what he did at Alabama. like i said during the draft, i dont think Ruggs is remotely a Day 1 WR1 type, and it will be up to whichever team drafts him to scheme him properly and get the most use out of it. Gruden has to make it work

[Millennial_Messiah]

Djax has been the most consistent of this generation. the real OG if you want to get historical is Don Hutson. more contemporary, Cliff Branch in the 70s. steve smith sr is another great one but he was much more all-around.

there have been other deep threats/speed specialists in recent years, just not as consistent or prolific as D-Jax. Guys like Donte Stallworth, Ashlie Lelei... going back farther the cowboys had Bob Hayes. even in todays game you have guys like Cooks, Hollywood Brown, Will Fuller

the raiders dont sound like they plan to use Ruggs as just a deep guy, that's not even what he did at Alabama. like i said during the draft, i dont think Ruggs is remotely a Day 1 WR1 type, and it will be up to whichever team drafts him to scheme him properly and get the most use out of it. Gruden has to make it work

Yep. Gruden should go WCO with Renfrow and Ruggs on opposite slots and Williams and another bigger guy on the boundaries. Would work great with Carr and make the box / defenses smaller for Jacobs as well. No messing with archaic FB/2TE formation

[Millennial_Messiah]

He had a solid season. Wish they would have stuck with the 3rd and 4th stringer though in order to tank and get a higher draft pick, tbh. 10th isn't bad for 6-10 though.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Mark Celibate do you think Dalton should be brought back, tbh? If so, at what price?

[Millennial_Messiah]

Cowboys considering Mitch Trubisky as the backup for 2021?

[Millennial_Messiah]

Will Dalton be QB1 on the Cowboys in 2021, Mark Celibate Chris ?

Prescott going to the Niners or Saints IMO

[Millennial_Messiah]

You don’t get it, and you can’t possibly get it unless you were a Bills fan growing up. /thread

2017 was nothing and they had no hope with Tyrod fucking Taylor as the qb.

This year on the other hand... What a future.

[spurraider21]

Will Dalton be QB1 on the Cowboys in 2021, Mark Celibate (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49544) Chris (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=1656) ?

Prescott going to the Niners or Saints IMO
ive been telling you for years, the cowboys are going to pay dak