Saunders v Brown: All Saunders So Far

[jochhejaam]

One of the biggest question mark posed by basketball analysts during the preseason was how would the Pistons perform under the coaching of Flip Saunders. So far so good, the Piston's have started the season 3-0 while Larry's Knicks are 0-3.

One of the things Flip was bringing to the table was more scoring for the Pistons.
The Pistons are averaging 102 ppg while holding their oppents to 85 ppg.

Larry's Knicks are averaging 86 ppg and their opponents 94 ppg

The 117 points scored Saturday matched their highest scoring game of the entire 107 games they played last year and was the most points they have scored in their last 88 games.

:smokin

[JamStone]

I mean, yeah, it's nice. But, we put up that 117 against the TORONTO RAPTORS. Quite possibly the worst team in the league. In only three games, that surely skews the averages.

[FromWayDowntown]

Flip's Pistons are 3-0, but they still have the Pistons' talent; Larry's Knicks are 0-3, but they still have the Knicks' talent. Even the greatest coach ever would struggle to win with what the Knicks have; the most pedestrian of coaches would look pretty successful with the Pistons' bunch.

I'm not really sure what the point is.

Are you trying to suggest that Flip Saunders is a better basketball coach than Larry Brown?

[jochhejaam]

I mean, yeah, it's nice. But, we put up that 117 against the TORONTO RAPTORS. Quite possibly the worst team in the league. In only three games, that surely skews the averages.
Keep in mind that we played them on the road. :lol

I freely admit that it's just a starting point and serves as bragging rights and nothing more at this point in the season

Too early for you to have an assessment on Flip?

Are you JoeJam on the Piston's Message Board?

[jochhejaam]

Flip's Pistons are 3-0, but they still have the Pistons' talent; Larry's Knicks are 0-3, but they still have the Knicks' talent. Even the greatest coach ever would struggle to win with what the Knicks have; the most pedestrian of coaches would look pretty successful with the Pistons' bunch.

I'm not really sure what the point is.

Are you trying to suggest that Flip Saunders is a better basketball coach than Larry Brown?

I believe that the Knick fans and organization expect LB to add enough wins to get them into the playoffs.

The position of many is that Larry is heads and tails above Flip when it comes to coaching, the wins and losses by each team will go a long way in dispelling or supporting that position. If the coaching skills are that far apart then the "same" Pistons should lose more and the "same" Knicks should win more.

3-0 is about 1/27th of the season so it's obviously way too early to draw any conclusions but it's unarguably a good start.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

from an outsiders view id say Flip looks like he is better for the Pistons than Brown was. Sure they have the talent and Brown took them to a championship but flip has brought more offense to the team and is more than happy to play all the bench and not just run a 7 or 8 man rotation. Darko is a perfect example, people call him a bust all the time but how the heck was he meant to try and shrug off that tag by sitting on the bench under Larry. His confidence will grow as he gets more time and has the faith of his coach for once. This will work for the whole team as the starters arent purely relied upon and the bench is shown faith by getting more minutes. Its a win-win situation for the Pistons.

I could be totally wrong in my assessment but thats how i see it at the moment

[FromWayDowntown]

I believe that the Knick fans and organization expect LB to add enough wins to get them into the playoffs.

The position of many is that Larry is heads and tails above Flip when it comes to coaching, the wins and losses by each team will go a long way in dispelling or supporting that position. If the coaching skills are that far apart then the "same" Pistons should lose more and the "same" Knicks should win more.

3-0 is about 1/27th of the season so it's obviously way too early to draw any conclusions but it's unarguably a good start.

I don't know that you've come up with a fair measure. Brown's Pistons from last year lost a lot of games that they should have/could have won because Larry wasn't coaching the team. It would stand to reason that the Pistons will win a lot of games this season -- they may even win more than last year -- but IMO that wouldn't necessarily mean that Flip was a better coach or did a better job.

[FreshPrince22]

I think it's just that Flip is the right coach for the team right now. Just like LB was the right coach in 03-04. Right now, the team is already a great defensive team with experienced vets who know how to get it done, but LB's offense was nothing short of awful, and it especially hurt us against a team who's coach knows our plays inside and out in the finals. The Pistons will win more games this year, and Flip will be considered for the COTY award. When your team can't pile points on teams, you let teams sneak back in to games and steal them like last year.

The number one thing that pisses me off though, is when I hear people say "Larry Brown is a Championship coach, and Flip isn't". I've heard that from 5 or 6 "experts" already. Yet, they fail to realize that it was the PISTONS who brought him his first NBA Title. And I gurantee it will be his last.
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[jochhejaam]

I don't know that you've come up with a fair measure. Brown's Pistons from last year lost a lot of games that they should have/could have won because Larry wasn't coaching the team. It would stand to reason that the Pistons will win a lot of games this season -- they may even win more than last year -- but IMO that wouldn't necessarily mean that Flip was a better coach or did a better job.
Fair enough, we were 54-28 overall and 9-8 in the games LB was unable to coach which would put us at 45-20 in the games he coached. If you use that win percentage for the entire season he would have ended up 57-25.
I believe we're improved over last years team because of a deeper bench, on the other hand other top teams in the East have also improved so it remains to be seen if that improvement will show up in the form of more wins than the previous year.

If we end up with close to 60 wins this year my opinion of Flip's coaching skills would be in that they are in the same league as LB's. Time will allow for a more accurate assessment, as of now I'm aware that it's nothing more than conjecture.

As of today I stand by my thread title. :)

[baseline bum]

I hope the success continues for the Pistons, but those playoff runs are what mattered the last two years, not two underachieving regular seasons.

[jochhejaam]

I hope the success continues for the Pistons, but those playoff runs are what mattered the last two years, not two underachieving regular seasons.
:tu

[JamStone]

Keep in mind that we played them on the road. :lol

I freely admit that it's just a starting point and serves as bragging rights and nothing more at this point in the season

Too early for you to have an assessment on Flip?

Are you JoeJam on the Piston's Message Board?


We played Toronto at HOME, not on the road. The one road game we had was against Boston, and we scored 82 points in that one. But, sure, it's nice to average 100 points ... for like the first time in over a decade.

And, yes, I'm "JoeJam" from our messageboard. What's up ...

[Marcus Bryant]

Flip Saunders struggled for years to get talented Minnesota teams out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Three regular season games are not going to change that legacy nor allow him to sniff Larry Brown's jock, for that matter.

[FreshPrince22]

Flip Saunders struggled for years to get talented Minnesota teams out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Three regular season games are not going to change that legacy nor allow him to sniff Larry Brown's jock, for that matter.

Luckily we are not Minnesota. It's the players who won the games and won the championship, not Larry Brown.

Meanwhile, look what's happening with the Knicks. Everyone's already going crazy.
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[JamStone]

Flip Saunders struggled for years to get talented Minnesota teams out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Three regular season games are not going to change that legacy nor allow him to sniff Larry Brown's jock, for that matter.


Which "talented" Minnesota teams were better than the Shaquille O'Neal Lakers, Tim Duncan Spurs, Rasheed Wallace Blazers, Steve Nash-Finley-Dirk Mavericks, or Chris Webber-Peja Kings?

How many times were the Wolves beat in the first round when they should not have been? How many times were they favored to win a series and not win it? Honestly, I want to know.

Just because those Minnesota teams were "talented," does not mean they were "MORE" talented or better than the teams that beat them.

[Marcus Bryant]

Excuse the playoff futility as much as you like, but Saunders coached a number of 50 win teams and bombed in the postseason. Certainly nothing worth placing him above LBrown for when it comes to coaching.

[nkdlunch]

then again a monkey on e could be 3-0 w/the pistons

[JamStone]

Excuse the playoff futility as much as you like, but Saunders coached a number of 50 win teams and bombed in the postseason. Certainly nothing worth placing him above LBrown for when it comes to coaching.


I don't disagree that Larry Brown is the better coach. I'm just saying Flip Saunders' playoff history as a coach with the Timberwolves must be taken into context. The Wolves only had home court advantage in one first round series they didn't win. You can say the Wolves won 50 games and couldn't make it out of the first round and laugh at that. But, when the teams they were playing won 59 or 57 games, how can you really fault the team for losing the series? Only one time did the Wolves have 50 wins, have more wins than their first round opponent, and have homecourt advantage.

Take a look at the Minnesota Timberwolves' playoff history:

1997: first round loss
Minnesota (40-42) v. Houston Rockets (57-25)
Houston had homecourt advantage
KG's second season in the league at the ripe old age of 21

1998: first round loss
Minnesota (45-37) v. Seattle Supersonics (61-31)
Seattle had homecourt advantage
Tom Gugiotta was injured half the season

1999: first round loss
Minnesota (25-25) v. San Antonio Spurs (37-13)
San Antonio had homecourt advantage
shortened season
Spurs eventual champs

2000: first round loss
Minnesota (50-32) v. Portland Trailblazers (59-23)
Portland had homecourt advantage
if you recall, Blazers loss to eventual champs Lakers after leading the Lakers by 15 points in the fourth quarter of game 7 of the Western Conference Finals
Portland was stacked that year, talent-wise

2001: first round loss
Minnesota (47-35) v. San Antonio Spurs (58-24)
San Antonio had homecourt advantage
Malik Sealy died that year
Joe Smith contract violation fiasco, he was not allowed to play with the Wolves and they lost draft picks

2002: first round loss
Minnesota (50-32) v. Dallas Mavericks (57-25)
Dallas had homecourt advantage
Terrell Brandon was lost that season to injury
Chauncey Billups stepped up, but wasn't enough in the playoffs against the Mavs

2003: first round loss
Minnesota (51-31) v. LA Lakers (50-32)
FIRST TIME T-WOLVES HAVE HOMECOURT ADVANTAGE
Lakers coming off three consecutive NBA championships

2004: made it to the Western Conference Finals against LA Lakers



So, MarkBryant, you tell me what year the T-Wolves SHOULD HAVE made it out of the first round? The only year they had homecourt advantage and didn't win the series was in 2003 against the THREE TIME DEFENDING NBA CHAMPIONSHIP LA LAKERS, who won a WHOPPING ONE REGULAR SEASON GAME FEWER than the T-Wolves.

Now, you can say Larry Brown is a much better coach than Flip Saunders, and I won't disagree with you.

You can say three regular season games does not mean that Flip is a great coach, and I would agree with you.

You can say the Minnesota teams he coached were talented, and I would agree with you.

But, don't imply that he and the Timberwolves should have won all of those first round series against teams that were clearly BETTER and MORE TALENTED than his ballclub. The one year he had more talent and balance on his team that most of the other western conference teams, he actually led them to the Western Conference championship series.

[Marcus Bryant]

If he was that great of a coach, they should've been able to get out of the 1st round more than once during his tenure, regardless of whether they had homecourt or not.

[JamStone]

Which year. Tell me which year they should have beat their first round opponent when they didn't.

You're speaking in totality. Be more specific. Which playoff series?

You can even throw out the first three years up there, 1997-1999, when KG was still too young and the other teams were far and away better teams.

Still, in 2000, the Portland Trailblazers were the best team in the league that year. In 2001, the Spurs had the best frontcourt in the league. In 2002, Dallas' team was a clearly better "team" than the Wolves. You can argue that 2002 was the year they really should have made it out of the first round, but Dallas was still a much better team. In 2003, the Lakers were the three time defending champs and many thought they slept-walked through the regular season. There was no surprise at all that the Lakers beat the Wolves even without homecourt advantage.

Every single first round series the Wolves lost were against POWERHOUSE western conference teams that had MORE TALENT. Every single one of them. The ONLY time he had more talent was the year they went to the Western Conference championships.

You cannot just say the Wolves should have won more than one first round series. Explain which ones they SHOULD HAVE won. Perhaps Flip was not a "great" enough coach to make a "good" team great. But, that doesn't matter with the Detroit Pistons. If Flip can just be a "good" enough coach to help keep this "elite" Detroit team "great," it should be enough to give the team a chance at another title run.

[Marcus Bryant]

You're right. I'm am speaking 'overall'. 1 season to advance past the first round out of 8?

[JamStone]

2002 aginst Dallas is the only time you could have even a remotely decent argument to say the Timberwolves should have won. So, you could say the T-Wolves should have won 2 out of 8 of those first round series. And, if they had won 2, people would still be saying: "Only 2 out of 8 first round series?"

It's very obvious why the Wolves didn't make it out of the first round of the playoffs in their first 7 appearances. It's because their opponents were better.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's fairly obvious that Saunders isn't that great of a coach or perhaps he could have knocked off some marginally better teams once or twice in a postseason.

[JamStone]

Again, sir, which teams were only "marginally" better than the Wolves when they played them?

The 3 time defending championship Lakers only had one fewer loss.

Dallas in 2002 was the only team they had a realistic chance at beating, and that Mavs team won SEVEN (7) more games in the regular season. In all the other playoff appearances, the teams the Wolves were facing won AT LEAST NINE (9) more regular season games. That's a considerable "margin." Even in a shortened 50 game season, the Spurs won THIRTEEN (13) more games than the Wolves in 1999.

So, I ask you again, which series should the Wolves had won that they didn't? You can only argue against the Mavs in 2002. That's it. And, you can't come down on a team or a coach for not being able to win ONE winnable playoffs series against a team that had the big three of Dirk-Nash-Finley, not to mention Juwan Howard (who was good back then), and with the Mavs having homecourt advantage. All of the other series were basically unwinnable.

Fine, Flip Saunders is not a "great" coach. Again, I never said he was.


But, just so you can see the comparison, here are Larry Brown's first 10 years in the league as a head coach and Flip Saunders' first 10 years in the league as head coach:


LARRY BROWN

Regular season record: 414-326
winning percentage: .559
# of seasons he led his team into the playoffs: 7

Playoff record: 19-26
winning percentage: .422
# of times his team made it past the first round: 2

FLIP SAUNDERS

Regular season record: 434-342
winning percentage: .559
# of seasons he led his team into the playoffs: 8

Playoff record: 17-30
winning percentage: .361
# of times his team made it past the first round: 1


Larry's teams had stronger post seasons overall in his first 10 years in the league, but not by much. And, Larry Brown only made it out of the first round two times in his first 7 tries. He didn't get much success until his eleventh year in Indiana. Pistons hope Flip really turns the corner in playoff success in his eleventh season as a head coach as well.

The two coaches also have identical regular season winning percentages in their first 10 years in the league. Flip might not be a "great" coach like Larry Brown yet. But, how about we give him a few more years, since we have the benefit of over 20 years with Larry Brown? Make sense, don't it?

Not all head coaches are lucky enough to walk into perfect situations like Phil Jackson, or have the fortune of adding a once-in-a-generation player, like Gregg Popovich had in Tim Duncan, to an already strong, veteran core. Flip started from scratch with basically an expansion team in Minnesota. KG and Stephon Marbury were teenagers when he got them. He had to coach them like college kids and really teach them fundamentals. The fact he made it to the playoffs with the youth and inexperience he had in only KG's second season is a testament in itself.

It's so easy to judge Larry Brown since he's been in the league for so long and certainly after his two years with the Pistons. Some would have questioned Larry Brown's legacy as well before his championship run in 2004 on a team he largely did not build or coach.


MarkBryant,

So, instead of thinking in generalities and without the benefit of context when forming an opinion, I personally think you should look at all the variables and contextual factors before being so adamant about an argument.

[Marcus Bryant]

Eight postseasons should be enough to ascertain his coaching prowess.

[JamStone]

check the edits ... made some additional changes.

[jochhejaam]

We played Toronto at HOME, not on the road. The one road game we had was against Boston, and we scored 82 points in that one. But, sure, it's nice to average 100 points ... for like the first time in over a decade.

And, yes, I'm "JoeJam" from our messageboard. What's up ...
At home, sure enough, my bad.
I thought I noticed some of the characteristics of JoeJam's writing style, good posts over there.

[jochhejaam]

Flip Saunders struggled for years to get talented Minnesota teams out of the 1st round of the playoffs. Three regular season games are not going to change that legacy nor allow him to sniff Larry Brown's jock, for that matter.
Brown's definitely a top notch coach and I wouldn't try to diminish that.
On the other hand I'm not so sure Flip deserves the blame for not being able to take some temperamental hotheads farther than he did in the playoffs.

And as I've already stated, I understand that we've only played 3 games but I'm still going to make the most of our 3-0 and the Knicks 0-3. :)

[ABDENOUR POWER]

And, yes, I'm "JoeJam" from our messageboard. What's up ...

Oh hey JJ, I bet you don't know who this is. :spin

[jochhejaam]

Oh hey JJ, I bet you don't know who this is. :spin


ABDENOUR POWER
Star
Posted November 06, 2005 09:26 AM
This will be a tough game, Sacramento is extremely dangerous, especially at home. Bonzi always goes crazy against us.

I'm probably gonna need a hint AP



p.s. I thought I heard that we haven't beaten Sacramento on the road since '96?
Still have to put a bet on the Pistons. That streaks comiin' to a halt! :)

[ABDENOUR POWER]

Yeah, there is indeed some sort of streak. I believe its 6 straight losses in Sacramento, but I'm not sure.

BTW, whats your name over at p.com?

[FreshPrince22]

Just put a spanking on the Kings in Arco. We were up 25 untill scrub time came. It was pretty strange to hear that place so silent, especially considering it was opening night.
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[JamStone]

Oh hey JJ, I bet you don't know who this is. :spin


You're right. I don't have a clue. Too many members to pick from ...

[jochhejaam]

Yeah, there is indeed some sort of streak. I believe its 6 straight losses in Sacramento, but I'm not sure.

BTW, whats your name over at p.com?


Streaks Is Ovuh!! :smokin
Still at that 102 ppg, lookin' good!


(don't post much on the Piston's Board, I mainly go there and read the threads, it's a good board <judedaniel> )

[jochhejaam]

With Brown's Knicks playing at GS tonight and the Pistons playing at Portland the day could very well end up with Flip's Pistons at 6-0 and Brown's Knicks at 0-5. :D

I do take satisfaction in this because Larry didn't leave us under the best of circumstances, taking 7 mil of Davidson's money for doin' nothin' and gettin' another 10 mil from the Knicks. :jack :cuss :)

[sickdsm]

I love how Piston fan sees Flip for a few games and thinks there an expert. Before you think i'm a jaded, spurned flip fan gone bad, check my record. I've hated what flip does for years and called him overated. You DO realize that flip and larry both had player control, right? Larry brought in a "temperatal hothead", in your own words, Rasheed and rode that ass to the O'brian. Flip meanwhile brought in guys like Avery, Ebi, engineered the Joe Smith Fiasco and what not. Remember, McHale wanted defense and pounding the ball in the paint. Flip is supposed to be a PG genius. Lets see, What pg did he ever come away smelling like roses? FLIP was the one that drove Billups out of town. Billups wanted to start, wanted to stay and even wanted to take less money but Flip refused to demote a hobbled Brandon. Wanted to keep hudson bad enough to have an untradeable contract, fucked up trading Ray allen for marbury. This is all on him, he's the guy that likes offense.

Wake the hell up, the reason why the wolves teams overachieced (they did) but couldn't get jack done in the playoffs is bc its a different ballgame. Zone D works nice and all in the reg. season but when the game gets longer, he gets outcoached. Watch during the playoffs when he's going against a good coach like Pop. You will start to cringe when he calls timeouts bc he sets up complicated plays that doesn't work. Its better to let his players play.

[JamStone]

Good thing that Flip doesn't have player coach here in Detroit then, right? Joe Dumars did not let Larry Brown control personnel. He refused to acquire Eric Snow. And, you can think it was Larry Brown who brought Rasheed to Detroit, but when all you have to give up is Bobby Sura, Chucky Atkins, Zeljko Rebraca and a draft pick, any NBA GM would have done the same thing.

You can't mutually exclusively apply Flip's experiences in Minnesota and say the same things will happen in Detroit. People do learn from their mistakes, you know. By the way, Larry Brown never won a championship before coming to Detroit. Players make the difference.

Oh, and I read multiple articles that stated that Kevin McHale was just as much the decision-maker in not bringing back Chauncey Billups as was Flip Saunders. And, to blame the Joe Smith fiasco without giving any culpability to McHale is not being honest or realistic. Guess what, Minnesota still has Kevin McHale as a GM.

I don't like the zone looks, more than just using it intermittently as a change-of-pace looks. Flip has already stated he will only use the zones a few times to keep other teams off balanced. He has also stated he realizes the strength of these players will rely on their prowess of man-to-man defense.

I don't think Flip is an upgrade over Larry Brown. I don't think Flip is the perfect answer as coach. Personally, I wanted to see Terry Porter come in. But, we are not going to see all of the problems Minnesota had over the last decade, because 1.) player control is in Joe Dumars' hands, and 2.) the talent as a whole in this Pistons team is much greater than Minnesota ever had, and it's ultimately on the players to execute and win games.

[sickdsm]

Good thing that Flip doesn't have player coach here in Detroit then, right? Joe Dumars did not let Larry Brown control personnel. He refused to acquire Eric Snow. And, you can think it was Larry Brown who brought Rasheed to Detroit, but when all you have to give up is Bobby Sura, Chucky Atkins, Zeljko Rebraca and a draft pick, any NBA GM would have done the same thing.

You can't mutually exclusively apply Flip's experiences in Minnesota and say the same things will happen in Detroit. People do learn from their mistakes, you know. By the way, Larry Brown never won a championship before coming to Detroit. Players make the difference.

Oh, and I read multiple articles that stated that Kevin McHale was just as much the decision-maker in not bringing back Chauncey Billups as was Flip Saunders. And, to blame the Joe Smith fiasco without giving any culpability to McHale is not being honest or realistic. Guess what, Minnesota still has Kevin McHale as a GM.

I don't like the zone looks, more than just using it intermittently as a change-of-pace looks. Flip has already stated he will only use the zones a few times to keep other teams off balanced. He has also stated he realizes the strength of these players will rely on their prowess of man-to-man defense.

I don't think Flip is an upgrade over Larry Brown. I don't think Flip is the perfect answer as coach. Personally, I wanted to see Terry Porter come in. But, we are not going to see all of the problems Minnesota had over the last decade, because 1.) player control is in Joe Dumars' hands, and 2.) the talent as a whole in this Pistons team is much greater than Minnesota ever had, and it's ultimately on the players to execute and win games.


Facts are facts, most GMS would NOT have done the Rasheed deal at that time. Are you blind? Rasheed was in the middle of his nutcase era. Its like second guessing T.O.'s trade and saying no other team would have done it then. Potentially tear apart a contender that relies on teamwork for a chance at a nutball who may or may not be around the next year? Good think Dumars isn't the GM of the tigers or ManRam would be there next year, huh? You don't think that Larry Brown had the say there? Larry Brown goes to the GM and says what he wants and convinces them to get it. Larry will soon have a say over Isiah and Isiah has one of the biggest ego's of GM's there is.

But for arguement sakes lets pretend there wasn't/isn't any coaching say in Detroit (you don't pay that much jack for a guy just to draw up screen and rolls :lol ) You don't think Flip is eventually going to play the type of players he wants to play? Again, look at the vacuum in MN since he left. Anthony Carter is getting big minutes and playing well even with a HEALTHY troy hudson as a backup.

Larry Brown didn't win a championship before that either. But theres a reason WHY larry brown was already a coaching legend. Popovich and Brown are two of the best coaches in the game, there was a connection. Larry's sixer team that went and robbed Shaq of a perfect record in the playoffs was CRAP. You have a problem when the Cookie Monster is your second leading scorer coming into the playoffs. That sixer team today IMO SHOULD be much better.

Its nice that you read some articles. I've also read articles saying the holocaust wasn't that bad, hitler was portrayed in a negative light and Black Monday was just a reason for people to feel bad about themselves.

I was a little more in tune with what happaned then your AP reports you read. KG's best bud was Joe and he wanted him back, McHale wasn't THAT big on him. Like i said before, McHale's approach to basketball is bang and block. Not a typicall backup 4 now is he? EVERYONE is to blame for that inclding the owner but the buck stops with Flip since he had player control.

McHale is just as hated so don't think he's getting a free pass. Are you going to hold it against me that i'm not a aloof homer like the piston fans that post here? I've been against Flip AND McHale for years. Like KG said recently, Glen trusts McHale and thats the bottom line.

[JamStone]

Most GMs might not have traded for Rasheed, but you put them in the same position as Joe Dumars, I would bet nearly all of them would have. The Pistons gave up Bobby Sura, Chucky Atkins, Zeljko Rebraca, and a 1st round draft pick for Rasheed Wallace and Mike James. What GM would not have done that???? And, then if for some reason Rasheed turned out to really be that bad seed, he was an unrestricted free agent at the end of that year, and Joe Dumars would NOT have had to bring him back. Are YOU blind? How perfect of a trade was that? Come on.

Larry Brown also asked Joe Dumars to find a way to acquire Eric Snow and Vince Carter. Joe Dumars refused him. And, Joe Dumars will not relent to Flip Saunders either. As to the make-up of this team, it's in Joe Dumars' control. Dumars made it a point to let Larry Brown know that. I'm sure he will do the same to Flip Saunders. Dumars and the owner Bill Davidson have already shown that they are willing to fire GREAT and SUCCESSFUL coaches who don't accept how things will be done under Joe Dumars. You think if Dumars is willing to fire Larry Brown, he won't be willing to fire Flip if Flip tries to take too much control over personnel? Let's be real.

That was the first time you ever showered blame on Kevin McHale. Just as long as you can admit it wasn't all Flip's fault in Minnesota.

It's all fine and well. I'm not a Flip Saunders apologist. I didn't want him as the next Pistons coach. Firstly, I wanted Larry Brown to return. And, if not, I wanted Terry Porter. But, I'm also willing to allow him to prove himself as a coach with more than just a pre-season and five games. It just seems you are so hell bent in watching Flip fail out of bitterness from your experience with him as the Wolves coach. Hey, it's fine if he proves to be a bad choice. So what? I won't be following him if he coaches another team claiming he's going to suck with them too just because I was bitter at the job he did here in Detroit. But, that's just me ...

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

maybe Larry was the issue at the Olympics :fro

[mike detroit]

maybe Larry was the issue at the Olympics :fro


I honestly think he really mishandled that team.

[2centsworth]

Larry took the freakin clippers to the playoffs. Plus, he took the piss poor sixers and pacers to the finals. LB not being coach will wear off on Detroit and first bit of adversity they'll all begin to question flip. I really like Detroit and hope they make it to the finals but I got to go with the pacers as long as they can stay out of jail.

[jochhejaam]

Larry took the freakin clippers to the playoffs. Plus, he took the piss poor sixers and pacers to the finals. LB not being coach will wear off on Detroit and first bit of adversity they'll all begin to question flip. I really like Detroit and hope they make it to the finals but I got to go with the pacers as long as they can stay out of jail.

Fair post except for (IMO) what I highlighted. Teams go through adversity each year and I believe this group is;
1. Confident in Joe Dumar's decision to bring Flip in because he believes in Flip's Coaching skills. Joe's a good assesser of talent, regarding both players and coaches.

2. The starters are together for the 3rd year now and after having been World Champions and in the Finals in consecutive years they believe in themselves and rightly so.

[FreshPrince22]

Larry took the freakin clippers to the playoffs. Plus, he took the piss poor sixers and pacers to the finals. LB not being coach will wear off on Detroit and first bit of adversity they'll all begin to question flip. I really like Detroit and hope they make it to the finals but I got to go with the pacers as long as they can stay out of jail.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the Pacers didn't make to the Finals untill the year after Larry Brown left. And I wouldn't consider taking these teams in the east 3-5 years ago deep into the playoffs an achievment. The East was absolutely awful untill the last 2 years or so. I'd love to see him try to get that same Philly team to the Finals this year. It would easily be a 1st round exit.
________
CHEAP GLASS BONGS (http://glassbongs.org/)

[ShoogarBear]

:lmao at everyone attempting to evaluate Flip Saunders based on the regular season.

[z0sa]

Flip Saunders doesn't know enough about defense and winning to put him above Larry Brown, whom I consider the second best coach in the league at this point, behind PJ but thats another matter.

[mavsfan1000]

Flip Saunders is a great regular season. :lol

[THE X-FACTOR]

It's fairly obvious that Saunders isn't that great of a coach or perhaps he could have knocked off some marginally better teams once or twice in a postseason.

Give it up Marcus Bryant, you have to admit that everything that jochhejaam wrote makes sense and proves the point, but the Pistons would not be this good under Flip if they didn't have Brown coach them the two years before. Brown made them better players and defenders, Flip is bringing out their offensive talents. Larry put in the groundwork, Flip is just taking this team to the next level.

[sickdsm]

Most GMs might not have traded for Rasheed, but you put them in the same position as Joe Dumars, I would bet nearly all of them would have. The Pistons gave up Bobby Sura, Chucky Atkins, Zeljko Rebraca, and a 1st round draft pick for Rasheed Wallace and Mike James. What GM would not have done that???? And, then if for some reason Rasheed turned out to really be that bad seed, he was an unrestricted free agent at the end of that year, and Joe Dumars would NOT have had to bring him back. Are YOU blind? How perfect of a trade was that? Come on.

Larry Brown also asked Joe Dumars to find a way to acquire Eric Snow and Vince Carter. Joe Dumars refused him. And, Joe Dumars will not relent to Flip Saunders either. As to the make-up of this team, it's in Joe Dumars' control. Dumars made it a point to let Larry Brown know that. I'm sure he will do the same to Flip Saunders. Dumars and the owner Bill Davidson have already shown that they are willing to fire GREAT and SUCCESSFUL coaches who don't accept how things will be done under Joe Dumars. You think if Dumars is willing to fire Larry Brown, he won't be willing to fire Flip if Flip tries to take too much control over personnel? Let's be real.

That was the first time you ever showered blame on Kevin McHale. Just as long as you can admit it wasn't all Flip's fault in Minnesota.

It's all fine and well. I'm not a Flip Saunders apologist. I didn't want him as the next Pistons coach. Firstly, I wanted Larry Brown to return. And, if not, I wanted Terry Porter. But, I'm also willing to allow him to prove himself as a coach with more than just a pre-season and five games. It just seems you are so hell bent in watching Flip fail out of bitterness from your experience with him as the Wolves coach. Hey, it's fine if he proves to be a bad choice. So what? I won't be following him if he coaches another team claiming he's going to suck with them too just because I was bitter at the job he did here in Detroit. But, that's just me ...

Who's following him? I'm at a spurs board discussing a common opponent for our teams. I'd say its a lot worse suddenly becoming a "fan" because a a guy is on your team. Lemme guess, Piston fan always admired Flip from afar, right? :lol GTFO with that "your bitter bc he's gone so now you hate him" routine. If you knew a damn thing about this message board or me, which most regular's here do, you'd know i've pined for flip's dismissal for years due to his lackluster defensive approach. I'm sure its a novel idea for you and your buddies in here. GASP! Not falling in line with everything your team does? Not being a certain nuclear power plant employee of Springfield? Piston's fans dismissal of Flip's failures is akin to TMac fans making fun of KG for his streak of first round exits. You havn't been there to experience what i have. Since Dumars is the demi-god of evaluation coaches, why was Flip a backup plan? I mean, you seem to think that the pistons we see in meaningless games are going to be like this in postseason. If so, why did Dumars wait for LB to leave?

As for your GMing evaluation, lots of people wouldn't have done that in certain circumstances. It worked out in your case but its not much differnt than the T.O. trade, Antoine and Jwill deal. Talent wise its a huge upgrade, but its also about as dumb as getting rid of Mike James for Rafer. Can you see the spurs, with a roster already title worthy, taking a risk on Spewell? Fact is fact, Rasheed was a nut at portland, He was tamer under Brown. And the problem ISN"T the future, it was the risk of blowing up that year and wasting a chance.

Q: Does Dumars do that if he has Doug Collins, Mike Montgomery, Bill Musselman or Sidney Lowe as a head coach? I don't even need to hear your answer. As for VC and Snow, VC revived that NJ franchise and even this season was a steal for them. Snow has always been a solid, solid player.

Aren't some of the same questions arising under the new regime in Det. as the were in MN? Your starters are getting too many minutes, not going deeep into the bench like most teams do this early. A playoff rotation less than ten games in?


Remember why KG was always tired late in the game towards the end of the year.

Flip was the reason why KG was injured last year.

"That was the first time you ever showered blame on Kevin McHale."

How long have you known me bitch?

:rolleyes

[ShoogarBear]

Flip is just taking this team to the next level.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

The only thing taking the Pistons to the next level is being pissed off at LB.

Guy V. Lewis could coach them at this point.

[JamStone]

Who's following him? I'm at a spurs board discussing a common opponent for our teams. I'd say its a lot worse suddenly becoming a "fan" because a a guy is on your team. Lemme guess, Piston fan always admired Flip from afar, right? :lol GTFO with that "your bitter bc he's gone so now you hate him" routine. If you knew a damn thing about this message board or me, which most regular's here do, you'd know i've pined for flip's dismissal for years due to his lackluster defensive approach. I'm sure its a novel idea for you and your buddies in here. GASP! Not falling in line with everything your team does?

Did you just hit the "quote" button without reading what I wrote? I said it specifically myself that I wanted Larry Brown to return, and I''d rather have Terry Porter than Flip, yet you want to categorize Pistons fan as Flip apologists? Reading is fundamental.


Not being a certain nuclear power plant employee of Springfield? Piston's fans dismissal of Flip's failures is akin to TMac fans making fun of KG for his streak of first round exits. You havn't been there to experience what i have. Since Dumars is the demi-god of evaluation coaches, why was Flip a backup plan? I mean, you seem to think that the pistons we see in meaningless games are going to be like this in postseason. If so, why did Dumars wait for LB to leave?

Who's dismissing Flip's failures? What failures has he really exhibited SIX GAMES into his Piston coaching career? You gotta do better than that. If and when Flip makes major mistakes or demonstrates visible flaws in his coaching and mangement, many Pistons fans will be willing to criticize Flip. Since it is only SIX games into the season and seeing as the Pistons haven't lost yet, why should there be extreme criticisms right now? There are currently no major failures to dismiss.

As for Dumars, who ever said Flip was a back-up plan? I don't know that he was or was not. You don't know that he was or was not. When Larry was fired, he was the only main name out there rumored to succeed Larry. The media stated that Flip was the first choice. How is that a back-up plan? And, NBA GMs are not supposed to hire coaches before firing coaches. That's why Dumars waited for LB to leave. It's common practice in all employment practices that there be a JOB OPENING when you hire someone. Aren't you aware of that?


As for your GMing evaluation, lots of people wouldn't have done that in certain circumstances. It worked out in your case but its not much differnt than the T.O. trade, Antoine and Jwill deal. Talent wise its a huge upgrade, but its also about as dumb as getting rid of Mike James for Rafer. Can you see the spurs, with a roster already title worthy, taking a risk on Spewell? Fact is fact, Rasheed was a nut at portland, He was tamer under Brown. And the problem ISN"T the future, it was the risk of blowing up that year and wasting a chance.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. I'm under a different opinion that given the same circumstances Dumars had, nearly all other NBA GMs would have made the Rasheed trade, giving up the players and draft pick Dumars did. And, you stating that Rasheed was a nutcase in Portland is just as naive and misconstrued a notion as your contention that "Pistons fans dismissing the failures of Flip as a head coach." As far as I've read, Rasheed has always been highly regarded by his teammates and coaches. He's had run-ins with officials, had problems with the Portland media, and had some marijuana problems. That does not automatically make him a nutcase. Obviously it was not "dumb" since the trade netted an NBA championship. So, I don't think your point carries much merit.


Q: Does Dumars do that if he has Doug Collins, Mike Montgomery, Bill Musselman or Sidney Lowe as a head coach? I don't even need to hear your answer. As for VC and Snow, VC revived that NJ franchise and even this season was a steal for them. Snow has always been a solid, solid player.

Hypotheticals, huh? The point is Dumars DID NOT have Collins, Montgomery, Musselman, or Lowe as a head coach. Why change the facts? He had LB. And, the Rasheed acquisition worked out. I said if any other GM had the SAME circumstances as Dumars had. Now you want to change the facts with hypotheticals. Poor argument.

How good Vince Carter and Eric Snow has nothing to do with the argument. It's a counter-point to your notion that Larry Brown had player control. Dumars not relenting to Larry Brown's requests to get Vince and Eric counters your point that Larry had control over personnel. You missed the point. It has nothing to do with whether Vince or Eric are solid players.


Aren't some of the same questions arising under the new regime in Det. as the were in MN? Your starters are getting too many minutes, not going deeep into the bench like most teams do this early. A playoff rotation less than ten games in?

Remember why KG was always tired late in the game towards the end of the year.

Flip was the reason why KG was injured last year.

The starters minutes will be a big issue here if Flip doesn't use his bench more. But, that was one of the MAIN ISSUES with Larry Brown as well. So, it's not a fair critique on Flip just yet. In fact, Flip has already used the bench more in his 6 games as Pistons head coach than Larry Brown ever did. Hopefully, he will use the bench even more. I'll be the first to question Flip if the starters average in the high 30 mpg for the entire season.



How long have you known me bitch?

:rolleyes


Perhaps I should have clarified. It was the first time IN THIS PARTICULAR THREAD AND DISCUSSION that you mentioned McHale as sharing the blame for the problems in Minnesota.

And, how necessary was it to use a derogatory insult on a messageboard? Would you also like to tell me how your daddy can beat up my daddy? Such a shame you have to ruin a decent debate with profanity.



sickdsm, I don't claim to know you. Nor have I perused the entire history of all your posts throughout this messageboard. Nor do I wish to do so. We were having a healthy debate about Flip Saunders as a coach, and a decent one, in my opinion. You don't have to get into a "you don't know me bitch" and "people on this messageboard can vouch for me" tirade. Just argue your point. I can respect your opinion even if I disagree with it. Can you do the same?

[sickdsm]

Fuck you. There, we got that out of your way so you can forget about your debate rules. I tear down people with facts and a great memory. I drop plenty of insults because like Eminem, I just don't give a fuck. Don't think its personal, it really isn't. I've been known to do that with EVERYONE on a losing end of my argument. The problem with you is this.

"I can respect your opinion even if I disagree with it."

I don't have an opinion here, i've backed up everything with history and facts. Your the only one spouting opinions. What the hell do you know about how Flip manages his team during the playoffs? What about how he fatigues' his players? You don't. I do. Go read an AP story about how it wasn't Flips fault he continually overplayed certain players in the regular season. Then go read about how when of the most physcially fit player in the NBA is fatigued a few games into the regular season.

"First of all, Saunders noticed that Ben Wallace was especially fatigued playing in Portland on the back end of back-to-back games. Saunders' plan for Tuesday is to bring Milicic in early, in the first quarter, to give Wallace a few extra minutes of rest. "Darko's going to get back in there," Saunders said. "He had some bad matchup situations (against Phoenix and Portland)." Saunders said Milicic has remained diligent and productive in practice, so there was nothing punitive about his lack of playing. "No, he's been good," Saunders said. "It's just how the games have gone. We need to get Ben some rest. He was really tired in Portland. So, we will get Darko in a little earlier." Detroit News


Flip is a react coach. He waits to see what you will do then trys to fix it. He doesn't see things ahead of their time.

"As for Dumars, who ever said Flip was a back-up plan? I don't know that he was or was not. You don't know that he was or was not. When Larry was fired, he was the only main name out there rumored to succeed Larry. The media stated that Flip was the first choice. How is that a back-up plan? And, NBA GMs are not supposed to hire coaches before firing coaches. That's why Dumars waited for LB to leave. It's common practice in all employment practices that there be a JOB OPENING when you hire someone. Aren't you aware of that?"

ialwayslovedthatone.

Pretend i'm Dave Chappele for a second. "Rick Carslile Bitch!"

Two years ago. Quit pretending that Caslile was a crappy coach. Last years debacle after the thugs in Detroit tore the roster apart in Indy he juggled a helluva act there. Also quit pretending that Brown was fired. He held all the cards and you know it. He decided he wanted to be in NY even though he had a contract. But since you don't understand how the NBA works, coaches can and do manage behind the back deals quite frequently. Just hope that Joe Smith doesn't hold a fancy for the pistons when there over the cap with Flip around. Flip WAS the backup plan to Larry Brown's future, like i said, if Dumars wanted him around, he would have canned Larry's ass after the postseason right away.

[Vashner]

How many rings does Flip Saunders have?

[Pistons < Spurs]

How many rings does Flip Saunders have?


The same amount Larry Brown had before Joe Dumars gave him a job w/ the Pistons.

After this year, he'll have just as many as Larry Brown does.

:spin :fro :spin

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=sickdsm]Fuck you.
Didn't bother to read the infantile garbage that followed that. Just thought I'd let you know that you get the a-hole of the year award Bart. :lol

BTW, Jamstone's arguements are much more compelling than the homer views you attempt to present.

And now you become the one and only poster I've ever put on ignore. (The only one I've even considered for ignore) Your ignorance is more than I can bear. :lol

Checked it out, it works! :lol

[JamStone]

sickdsm,

You're a joke, man. I really think people like you who have to have this James Dean, rebel type, I don't give a damn, attitude to make them feel cool ON THE INTERNET must have some sort of insecurity issues. Who compares himself to Eminem??? Who needs to gas himself up and tell people that he has a great memory?? Listen, it's all cool and whatever if you need to swear and put down people ON THE INTERNET in order to re-affirm your self-esteem as a smart person. You make some decent points sometimes, but that doesn't mean you're always right.

"I don't have an opinion here, i've backed up everything with history and facts. Your the only one spouting opinions."

You take past history and apply it to a different set of circumstances, that's still a subjective opinion that those same results will occur in those DIFFERENT set of circumstances. I said it many posts ago, but I'll reiterate that people can learn from their mistakes. People can change their ways. People who don't learn from past history are doomed to repeat it. If Flip hasn't learned from his experiences in Minnesota, then we will have a problem. But, I'm hoping he has learned and willing to see how it plays out ... for now.

Let's say you had a girlfriend who hated when you called her "stupid." So, anytime you called her "stupid," she would kick you in the nuts. Your logic that Flip will make the same mistakes in Detroit as he did in Minnesota would lend me to believe that after getting kicked in the nuts NINE times, the TENTH time you called her stupid, you would still not protect your nuts.


I stated earlier if Flip continues to play the starters heavy minutes, many Pistons fans including myself will have a problem with it. It's SIX GAMES INTO THE REGULAR SEASON!! The starters here are that good. While implementing a new system, Flip has ridden the starters a little longer than he has wanted to. He's also had three blow-out games in the first six that allowed him to play the starters all in the low 30 minutes per game average, most of them well below that.

KG is an NBA superstar. Look at Allen Iverson's minutes during the course of the regular season. Look at Kobe Bryant's minutes, Tracy McGrady's, Amare Stoudemire's. Superstars in great condition log heavy minutes. Did KG's minutes per game drop when McHale took over as coach? Should Flip have played KG fewer minutes? Maybe. But, can you say to a certifiable fact that it was solely his heavy minutes that led to his knee injuries? How about nine years in the NBA? How about this past summer was the first time Kevin Garnett really worked out to bulk up?


"Pretend i'm Dave Chappele for a second. 'Rick Carslile Bitch!'

Two years ago. Quit pretending that Caslile was a crappy coach."

I don't know why you even mention Rick Carlisle. I didn't even talk about Carlisle in any of my posts.

And, you can believe whatever you want about Larry Brown. You can believe he held all the cards in Detroit. You can believe he wasn't fired. You can try to preach how you know how things work in the NBA. You can flash your NBA elite card all you want. It's fine. It's whatever. Your song and dance gets old like a Rolling Stones reunion tour.

[sickdsm]

I could care less about joche, how many times have you said that your not going to read my stuff?

Everyone knows that LB was picking and choosing almost ANY job he wanted, whether it was Cleveland, NY, Detroit or even Sacramento. The only reason he forced Dumars to do something about it was for money issues. Get out of Det. and see what everyone else sees. Seriously, do you get ESPN, FSN, internet radio there? Shut the local morning show off and tune into what others have to say.

The reason i mentioned Rick Caslile was this.

"As for Dumars, who ever said Flip was a back-up plan? I don't know that he was or was not. You don't know that he was or was not. When Larry was fired, he was the only main name out there rumored to succeed Larry. The media stated that Flip was the first choice. How is that a back-up plan? And, NBA GMs are not supposed to hire coaches before firing coaches. That's why Dumars waited for LB to leave. It's common practice in all employment practices that there be a JOB OPENING when you hire someone. Aren't you aware of that?"

Doesn't take a genius for someone to realize that i'm talking about how Dumars fired Rick even though he was a good coach and they would have been happy with him but Larry was available. If Dumars wanted Flip he would have done the same to Larry right after his shenanigans

I certainly don't understand what KG bulking up has to do with last years injury. Bulking up should be harder on the knee. KG has always been in phenomanal shape. What's the coorelation there?


Your logic about getting kicked in the nuts is just plain nuts. What the hell makes you think that if i didn't learn the first NINE times that the tenth time is the charm? Seriously? Why didn't he learn from his mistakes before? Trust me, i'm used to the MN sports scene. With the Gopher and Viking fans, i'm used to hearing your same arguments about "Wait'll next year" Are you a Cubby fan?


But i'm sorry about missing this gem.

"Hypotheticals, huh? The point is Dumars DID NOT have Collins, Montgomery, Musselman, or Lowe as a head coach. Why change the facts? He had LB. And, the Rasheed acquisition worked out. I said if any other GM had the SAME circumstances as Dumars had. Now you want to change the facts with hypotheticals. Poor argument."

I think Dumars is a fine GM. We're talking about Flip Saunders here, he's the variable. My point was that if you change the coach (go back to algebra if you don't understand how variables work), Dumars, along with any other GM, would rarely pull the trigger on that deal.

"poor argument"

You said it best. You also said why change the facts then continue to talk about what ifs about other gms.

You REALLY don't need to be setting me up for these. The spur fans here already think very little of Flips playoff coaching to begin with, your not helping matters.

[THE X-FACTOR]

:stfu sickdsm you got :owned , pretty sad really :lol :spin :blah :king you are a :jack off :lmao stop trying to dig yourself out of your hole :rolleyes

[Lurks-a-lot]

Actually a pretty good debate on booth sides (minus the random blow up by sick, did you all of all sudden take his argument personally???).

I particular liked Sick's argument that Rasheed wouldn't have been a piston if it wasn't for LB. At first I shrugged it off thinking along those same lines as JamStone that any Gm in the league would have made that trade but to be honest Sick has a valid point in my opinion for two reasons.

A.) We all know that Brown wanted Sheed, and probally constantly requested Dumars to see if he could possibly find a trade for him. So after Rasheed was traded to Atlanta Dumars saw an opportunity to get him with little loss to the pistons main roster. It wasn't as the Hawks called up and said hey do you want Rasheed for basically nothing, of course any GM would do that trade but without LB it may have never been set in motion. But who knows?

B.) As Sick said "Rasheed was in the middle of his nutcase era. Its like second guessing T.O.'s trade and saying no other team would have done it then. Potentially tear apart a contender that relies on teamwork for a chance at a nutball who may or may not be around the next year? ", which is true or at least similar to my view of Rasheed pre-Pistons. The reason why Dumars pulled the trigger/ had faith in Rasheed was because of Larry Brown. Larry Brown had spent a lot of time together with Sheed and had a keen interest because of the North Carolina connection, they were pretty close and because of that Joe knew that Larry could keep Rasheed in control, thus making that trade much easier.

Without Larry who knows what happens and what Joe does, but with out LB I don't see that deal for sure going down.

As for what the main thing you two arguing about I don't really understand. Sick is making arguments that Brown is a much better coach then Saunders but I don't think anyone was ever arguing that point or disagrees with that. Brown is a great coach, Saunders is a.... no one really knows. I will say this though in closing some coaches style and personalites fit better with certain teams and I think Saunders although definitely not a proven great coach fits the Pistons team needs, thus possibly making them a better team. Does that mean that Saunders is a better coach then Larry Brown absolutely not. The team just needed a breathe of fresh air and Saunders being alot more lose and relaxed with his teams is what this veteran squad needed.

Just my 2 cents....


P.S JamStone what Pistons forum do you post at?

[Marcus Bryant]

Flip Saunders is well on his way to another November championship.

[Lurks-a-lot]

:lol

I hope not, but it's really impossible for me to argue that his "coaching success" this early in the season is any different when he coached with the wolves and lost in the first round of the playoffs.

None the less at least it teases me with the idea that because were the only undefeated team in the NBA were the best team in the NBA. But we all know that the Spurs our the team to beat and until/if you guys lose the rings then you our the Best team in the NBA.

[JamStone]

sickdsm,

Rick Carlisle is a moot point. And, even if what you said about Carlisle is true, it has little to do with the argument we were having about Larry Brown controlling personnel.

You want to argue that since the firing of Rick Carlisle happened immediately after the end of the season in 2003 and the firing of Larry Brown took a few weeks longer after the end of the 2005 season, that that clearly strates that Larry Brown "held all the cards," fine. Believe that. If that's your best argument why Flip will fail in Detroit, because Larry Brown held the cards in Detroit, then all I will say is that is not only a stretch of an argument, but one of the most irrelevent stretches to make a point I've argued against.


I certainly don't understand what KG bulking up has to do with last years injury. Bulking up should be harder on the knee. KG has always been in phenomanal shape. What's the coorelation there?

I guess you are unaware that when a person "bulks up" and works out, he is also able to work out his LEGS. Just because an athlete bulks up and gains weight, it doesn't mean he only works out his upper body. Any good weight training program--and I would suspect Kevin Garnett followed some type of program with guidance from some physical trainers--would include weight training to work out the leg muscles in order to give the bulk a more proportionate shape and strength to support the added muscle weight in the upper body. Maybe you would tend to believe bulking up would only encompass bench-pressing and curls. And, if Kevin Garnett did have problems with his knees last year, I would hope he and his trainers would have focused on exercises that would strengthen those knees. "Doesn't take a genius for someone to realize that."


Your logic about getting kicked in the nuts is just plain nuts. What the hell makes you think that if i didn't learn the first NINE times that the tenth time is the charm? Seriously?

Well, because he is in a different environment, under different circumstances, with a better team, and better management. The whole "nuts" example is more tongue-in-cheek than anything. I still maintain that people learn from their past mistakes.

If Flip doesn't learn from those mistakes, I have said it a few times already, I will be upset with Flip and criticize the decisions he makes that I feel hurt the team. But, right now, Flip is the head coach. As a fan, I can't change that. And, as a fan, I will give him an opportunity to prove himself before I make harsh judgmental critiques of his coaching style SEVEN GAMES INTO THE SEASON. You want to belabor the fact that Flip will make these monumental mistakes that will hurt this ballclub. My only retort has been that I'm going to wait and see if that happens. I already said that if he does, I'll be sure to bash him for those mistakes.


I think Dumars is a fine GM. We're talking about Flip Saunders here, he's the variable. My point was that if you change the coach (go back to algebra if you don't understand how variables work), Dumars, along with any other GM, would rarely pull the trigger on that deal.

sickdsm,

It's becoming very evident that you don't know how to follow even your own argument. Flip is not the variable. The discussion about Joe Dumars pulling off the Rasheed trade was SPECIFICALLY directed towards YOUR argument that Larry Brown had player control in Detroit. Your point was NEVER about the chances of Dumars making the Rasheed trade if Flip was the coach. It was about Larry Brown and how he was the one who made the call to trade for him.

You can state all you want how you said Dumars doesn't make that trade if the head coach was someone else. That does not refute my contention that had almost any other NBA GM had the same circumstances Dumars had, most of them would have made the trade as well. That includes having Larry Brown as coach, that includes giving up the players and the draft pick they used in the trade, that includes having the type of veteran and professional players on the team, that includes everything.

My "what-if" argument about replacing Joe Dumars with any other GM speaks straight to the point about whether Larry Brown pulled the trigger on the deal. It refutes that notion by saying almost anyone else would have done it, so Larry Brown was not the deciding factor. Your "what-if" argument replacing Larry Brown with any other coach does not speak right to the point of the argument, because it changes the facts under which Joe Dumars made the decision to make the trade. I'm sorry if you don't understand that logic. I thought that it didn't "take a genius for someone to realize that."


You REALLY don't need to be setting me up for these. The spur fans here already think very little of Flips playoff coaching to begin with, your not helping matters.

Why you continually want to mention your clout and rep with Spurs fans to validate yourself as a smart poster, I don't know why. I often unfairly think zelous fans of other NBA teams don't really have much intelligent to say when they are so obviously biased. "your [YOU'RE] not helping matters."

[jochhejaam]

How many rings does Flip Saunders have?
If he would have had the Spurs talent over the last 9 years I would say he would have at least 3 and possibly 5 by now.
























j/k, that would be quite incendiary if I left it at that, ay? :lol

[JamStone]

How many championships does Jerry Sloan have? Yet, he is still regarded as one of the best coaches in the game, even though he had two hall of famers and couldn't win it all. It's widely accepted that even with Stockton and Malone, Sloan did not have enough pieces or talent to overcome the might Chicago Bull with Michael Jordan.

The teams Flip lost to when he had great teams were the Shaquille O'Neal Lakers, the Tim Duncan Spurs, that great Portland Trailblazers team, and the Dallas Mavericks with the three headed Finley-Nash-Dirk monster.

The only team any rational person could argue should have been beaten by the T-Wolves was that Dallas Mavs, and that's arguable at best. All the other teams were better teams. Even if you go back to when Minnesota was still too young to be a legit contender, they lost to Hakeem Olajuwan's and Charles Barkley's Houston Rockets and Gary Payton's Seattle Sonics.

The championship argument is silly, old, and tired because only three current coaches have championship rings: Pop, Larry, and Phil.

So, is every other coach in the NBA bad? If that's your argument, fine. I guess only Pop, Larry, and Phil should be NBA coaches ... and no one else.

Championship contending teams should only consider Lenny Wilkins, Rudy Tomjonovich, Jack Ramsay, Chuck Daly, Pat Riley, or KC Jones to coach their team. That should be a league enforced rule then. Get it done.

[jochhejaam]

I honestly don't see any less defensive intensity under Flip. The only difference so far has been the offensive output (except tonight). Looking good Flip and Pistons!

Meanwhile, Larry's Knicks fall to 2-7.

[jochhejaam]

Flip's Pistons 9-1 after an nice win over the Nuggets and LB's Knicks 3-8 after another embarassing loss, this time to the Bobcats 108-95.

Early assessment is that the Pistons can score big this year and still play stifling defense.


The Knicks, to this point, have been disappointing, I'm sure the team and fans hoped for something more than a 3-8 start.

(ES, what's the new projected season record for the Pistons? :)

[SA210]

Is Flip smarter than Pop in a seven game series to make critical decisions or plays in the NBA Finals? I think not. If we play Detroit in the Finals, it will be Flip vs. Pop. I say,

Pop > Flip

[JamStone]

Coaching matters to a certain degree, but championships are ultimately won by the players. Pop might be a better coach than Flip, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a team coached by Pop will automatically and always win a seven game series against a team coached by Flip. If you really believe that, you take away a lot of credit away from Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Manu Ginobili, etc.

[SA210]

^^^No, I take nothing away from them. I'm just saying Pop would have that Championship experience when it comes to it as a coach.

[jochhejaam]

Insider Dave D'Alessandro weighs in on the topic:

Pistons are even better without Brown

By Dave D'Alessandro - SportingNews


So it's a one-point game last week, Detroit at Houston, and the thing that strikes you most is this: Everything the Pistons do in white-knuckle time just reeks of arrogance.

They throw it in to Rasheed Wallace on the left box, and he scores against overmatched Stromile Swift. At the other end, Ben Wallace pokes out Yao Ming's dribble to force a turnover.

Then, Take 2: Rasheed on the left block again, scoring against single coverage. Down the other way, Ben blocks Stro's jumper.

Finally, Take 3: Sheed in the post again (Memo to Jeff Van Gundy: Catch on yet?) for another shamelessly easy fadeaway on poor Stro. At the other end, Ben draws charge against Yao and fouls him out.

Never mind that the Rockets had Detroit playing their tempo all night or that they were within one at the four-minute mark. In just 120 seconds, the Wallaces took over, the lead went from one to eight and the Pistons had their eighth straight victory.

Almost every night this season, they've authored a game story such as this. It's almost as if the Pistons are toying with teams, but what they are going through, really, is a natural evolution: Virtually all of their players are in their primes, and given their natural tendency toward unselfishness, the team is also in its prime.

Of course, the following night at Dallas, the Pistons celebrated the one-year anniversary of The Palace brawl by getting mugged in public, but that can happen to anyone. It just makes you feel sorry for the next team that has to play Detroit.

The bottom line -- for most people, anyway -- is this: "The way Flip Saunders has them playing, I think that they are all playing better," Celtics forward Paul Pierce says. "I think Larry Brown held them back."

<snip>

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=pistonsareevenbetterwith&prov=tsn&type=lgns

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Brown is over rated and Flip was just used as a scapegoat for a crappy minnesota team (as so many coaches are).

Minny sucks, Pistons are playing great..........suck it up and get over it

:fro

[sickdsm]

I could care less if i come off as an asshole, to you, to Kori, to LJ, to anyone. I'll make my points the same if i'm talking to Bill Clinton or Sequ. When you understand that you'll understand me. When you understand me, you'll get past the "what a fucking asshole!" and think, "but his points are very dead on", as one poster here already has. In no way was i ever comparing the players on the wolves, pistons, or expecially the knicks for that matter. When you guys watch a seven game series with a quality team, you'll understand what i mean. Watch how during a 20 second timeout Flips offensive play he draws up will consistanlty flop against defensive schemes. Knowing what a woman's heart desire's and getting some ass are two completley different things, just like intangibles in coaches.

Most of all, the difference between a team or a player being overachievers or them being pretty good is consistancy. Sure, guys like Wally, Hassell, Laphonso Ellis, Hudson, etc... overachieved and more important there teams did at times. But if Flip had these guys performing beyond there skillset (which really is overachieving) then they would have been considered good to great players under him eventually. When the game is taken out of the players hands somewhat during the playoffs, slowed down, every possesion more valued, more coaching is done, his teams have lost. Funny, i see monthly how Allen Iverson is praising Larry Brown as a coach and trying to mentor guys like Marbury or most recently Nate Robinson to listen to him and he'll make you a better player. The ONLY coach i've seen players do that to recently have been Popovich. I don't remember Marbury or Isiah Ryder calling Ebi or sitting down with Kandi or Loren Woods telling them that Flip knows whats up.

Jam: this is a brief summary, read it a couple times, ok?

With or without player control, With Brown as coach and Dumars as GM Det. MAYBE does that trade

With or w/out player control, with Mitchell, jeff van gundy, rick adelman, flip saunders the NEVER do that trade.

Get it? Whether or not any of the coaches are whispering in the GM's ear to do that trade, Det doesn't if the pieces around it (disciplinarian) aren't there.

[jochhejaam]

Knicks @ Pistons Friday Dec. 2nd.
Normally not a biggie on the schedule but takes on added meaning with LB at the Knicks helm.
It was big for most of us Piston fans when LB became our coach and we played against the Pacers with former coach Carlisle.
Although the coaches wouldn't publicly say it the game must take on extra meaning as Saunders and the Pistons players and fans will want to show everyone that Joe made the right move in replacing Brown.
We'll sure to be heavy favorites but games are won on the court, I believe it's being aired on ESPN.

[JamStone]

I could care less if i come off as an asshole, to you, to Kori, to LJ, to anyone.

Your words, not mine. And, since you yourself consider yourself one, there isn't much else to say regarding what people think of you.



I'll make my points the same if i'm talking to Bill Clinton or Sequ. When you understand that you'll understand me. When you understand me, you'll get past the "what a fucking asshole!" and think, "but his points are very dead on", as one poster here already has.

sickdsm,

To me, you are an unapologetic, short-sighted, pseudo intellect. And, that's not meant as smack talk or a plain insult. That's honestly how I view you. You have tunnel vision in your arguments. And, you are unable to see a different perspective. If you read my responses carefully, you'll find I don't always disagree with what you are saying. It's just that I respond at all that you take some degree of pleasure in trying to refute things that don't even really rebut your own arguments. You belabor the topic of Flip's mistakes in Minnesota and guarantee they'll happen again. When I respond that people can learn from their mistakes, and that if Flip repeats his mistakes, then Pistons fans will get upset and make their criticisms, and that I'm merely being patient to see if those things in fact happen, you still don't understand my point-of-view and respond how wrong I am. It's kind of funny. In general, I've just said I hope Flip has learned from his mistakes, that he's in a different situation here in Detroit with better management and better players, and as a Pistons fans, I'm willing to give him a little time to show us how he'll coach this team. Do you understand that?


In no way was i ever comparing the players on the wolves, pistons, or expecially the knicks for that matter. When you guys watch a seven game series with a quality team, you'll understand what i mean. Watch how during a 20 second timeout Flips offensive play he draws up will consistanlty flop against defensive schemes.

I'll watch for it, with great expectations and unabridged enthusiasm. And, I'll monitor every little play Flip calls. And, I'll remember your pseudo-wise forecasts and be in awe of your great soothsayer skills ... or lack thereof, since no one knows what will really happen then. Different team. Different players. Different organization. Different management. Different ownership. Different history. How did the Wolves make it to the Western Conference Finals in 2004 with Flip's history of bad coaching? Blind luck, I guess. It couldn't possibly be that he learned from his mistakes or that the players got better.


Knowing what a woman's heart desire's and getting some ass are two completley different things, just like intangibles in coaches.

And, knowing your brain from your ass is a valuable tool, but what the hell does either even have to do with anything we've been talking about? That's a hell of a completely irrelevant and worthless analogy. But, ok.



Most of all, the difference between a team or a player being overachievers or them being pretty good is consistancy. Sure, guys like Wally, Hassell, Laphonso Ellis, Hudson, etc... overachieved and more important there teams did at times. But if Flip had these guys performing beyond there skillset (which really is overachieving) then they would have been considered good to great players under him eventually. When the game is taken out of the players hands somewhat during the playoffs, slowed down, every possesion more valued, more coaching is done, his teams have lost.

Ever heard of Phil Jackson? How about the great Red Auberach? How many championships did either win without Russell, Michael Jordan, and Shaq? Remember the 1994-96 Chicago Bulls? How many championships did Pat Riley win in New York and Miami? Chuck Daly with New Jersey and Orlando? Rudy Tomjanovich looks rather pedestrian as a coach after Hakeem lost a step. You must sooner or later realize and acknowledge that it is ultimately on the players to win games, playoff series, and championships. Having a great coach can put a team over the top. But, if a team is just not good enough, it's just not good enough. Could Sam Mitchell win with Shaq and Kobe in their respective primes? Maybe not, but I wouldn't be surprised if he could.


Funny, i see monthly how Allen Iverson is praising Larry Brown as a coach and trying to mentor guys like Marbury or most recently Nate Robinson to listen to him and he'll make you a better player. The ONLY coach i've seen players do that to recently have been Popovich. I don't remember Marbury or Isiah Ryder calling Ebi or sitting down with Kandi or Loren Woods telling them that Flip knows whats up.

You can look at all of my responses on this thread, and I guarantee you that not once did I say Flip Saunders was a better coach than Larry Brown. You'll never read a statement by me that Larry Brown is a bad coach or that Saunders is the best coach. You'll also find that I wrote I wanted Larry Brown to return this year, and that my second choice was in fact Terry Porter. But, now that Flip is the Detroit coach, I will support him until he does something that will indicate I shouldn't support him. If he warrants harsh criticism, I'll be more than happy to state it.


Jam: this is a brief summary, read it a couple times, ok?

With or without player control, With Brown as coach and Dumars as GM Det. MAYBE does that trade

With or w/out player control, with Mitchell, jeff van gundy, rick adelman, flip saunders the NEVER do that trade.

LOL! You're pretty silly. You don't read my responses, do you? Larry Brown WAS the coach of the Pistons. And, his presence made that trade more logical, yes. But, do you remember the things the Pistons gave up for a talent like Rasheed Wallace? Chucky Atkins, Bobby Sura, Zeljko Rebraca and a late first round pick. Even without Larry Brown, the Pistons make that trade. And, most GMs would too. You'd be silly to argue that.



Get it? Whether or not any of the coaches are whispering in the GM's ear to do that trade, Det doesn't if the pieces around it (disciplinarian) aren't there.

We're in disagreement. Pistons make that trade because they gave up very little to get one of the better power forwards in the league.

[whottt]

Minny always got off to fast starts with Flip...usually to be followed by a second half fade. I think the reason his teams always start off fast is because he focuses on offense and that's generally part of the game the players want to focus on as well...so he gets his teams ready to play by going down the path of least resistance if you will...but it always catches up with him in the second half, when the novelty wears off and the other teams round into shape...and all the defenses get cranked up.

My prediction:Pistons will fade in the second half and will get eliminated in the first round if they have to face Indy, Mia or NJ.

[theMUHMEshow]

My prediction:Pistons will fade in the second half and will get eliminated in the first round if they have to face Indy, Mia or NJ.

How in gods name can you justify saying that?!?!?!!? They have basically everyone returning besides LB and their bench is better than it was last year. You obviously have been drinking :drunk

[whottt]

How in gods name can you justify saying that?!?!?!!?


Hmmm...


They have basically everyone returning besides LB

[JamStone]

Minny always got off to fast starts with Flip...usually to be followed by a second half fade. I think the reason his teams always start off fast is because he focuses on offense and that's generally part of the game the players want to focus on as well...so he gets his teams ready to play by going down the path of least resistance if you will...but it always catches up with him in the second half, when the novelty wears off and the other teams round into shape...and all the defenses get cranked up.

My prediction:Pistons will fade in the second half and will get eliminated in the first round if they have to face Indy, Mia or NJ.


That would be a problem with teams who have never been taught to emphasize defense. The core of the Detroit team endured FOUR long years with heavy emphasis, coaching, and skills training to play elite level team defense in the NBA. Players don't just stop playing defense because a coaching change or because it is less emphasized. Ben Wallace is not going to stop trying to block shots or going after every rebound possible. Tayshaun is not going to all of a sudden halfway through the season decide he would rather not play tough defense on his man. Chauncey Billups is not going to all of a sudden turn into Steve Nash on the defensive end.

I know a lot of people want to question how the Pistons will respond to a coach that gives them more freedom on the offensive end, and that they will somehow lose the desire and heart to play tough defense. To me, if you are going to bank on that, it's merely a lot of praying and hoping talk. Their defense might not be AS GREAT as it was under Carlisle and Brown. But, to think they will suddenly lose their defense is naive at best.

[FreshPrince22]

How many rings does Flip Saunders have?

What a terribly flawed argument.
________
a00SpicyAlicia (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/a00SpicyAlicia/)

[Marklar MM]

What a terribly flawed argument.

Indeed.

[Extra Stout]

(ES, what's the new projected season record for the Pistons? :)
57-25.

With the caveat that until at least a third of the season is complete, my calculations mean about as much as my last bowel movement.

[jochhejaam]

57-25.

With the caveat that until at least a third of the season is complete, my calculations mean about as much as my last bowel movement.
Thanks for the update although I could have done without the visual. :lol


11-2 now and bypassing the Gottlob Frege formula I come up with a 69-11 projection.


I honestly don't believe we'll win that many.

[FreshPrince22]

Thanks for the update although I could have done without the visual. :lol


11-2 now and bypassing the Gottlob Frege formula I come up with a 69-11 projection.


I honestly don't believe we'll win that many.

69 wins would suck. Obviously it would be great in the sense that it's a great record, but 1 short of 70 would suck. That's when we'd look back at the washington game and cry. I think we'll win around 60. Give or take a few. Obviously an impressive record is useless if you don't back it up with a ring in June though.
________
Nexium classaction (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/nexium/)

[jochhejaam]

69 wins would suck. Obviously it would be great in the sense that it's a great record, but 1 short of 70 would suck. That's when we'd look back at the washington game and cry. I think we'll win around 60. Give or take a few. Obviously an impressive record is useless if you don't back it up with a ring in June though.
It would be interesting to see how teams with more than 60 or more wins have fared in the past, obviously the Suns didn't fare well last year.

[jochhejaam]

Espn has issued the coaches ratings by the fans (interactive) for the month of November.

Flip Saunders - 93%
Team: Detroit Pistons
Record: 11-2
Votes: 5,540 Pistons sizzle under Saunders
Larry who? The style of play is different, but the results remain the same. Detroit was the final NBA team to lose this season, as the team seemed to experience no growing pains at all under new head coach Flip Saunders. Chauncey Billups has become one of the NBA's top assist men under Saunders, while Richard Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince have shot the ball well. Roles seem to be very well defined and accepted already, so the Pistons appear poised for a third straight NBA Finals appearance. Vote

Larry Brown - 51%
Team: New York Knicks
Record: 5-9
Votes: 2,089 New York still searching for its identity after one month
After an 0-5 start, the Knicks have showed signs of improvement recently by going 5-4 since then. It should be noted that just one of those five wins came against a team currently with a winning record. Brown has constantly tinkered with his lineup in an effort to find the right mix. Rookie Channing Frye has been a pleasant surprise and gives the team hope moving forward. Brown and Stephon Marbury, the only Knick to start every game this season, have already had a couple disagreements, but it's way too early to judge their relationship. Vote

Greg Poppovich - 92%
Team: San Antonio Spurs
Record: 12-3
Votes: 1,986 Defending champs pick up where they left off
Four months didn't affect the momentum that the Spurs finished with in the NBA Finals. San Antonio has the best record in the Western Conference, and two of its three losses came on a five-game road trip. Tony Parker continues to improve his game, while the additions of Michael Finley and Nick Van Exel have bolstered an already strong nucleus. The Spurs lead the NBA in field-goal percentage and have remained stellar defensively. Vote

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/sportsnation/ratings?seasonYear=2006&seasonType=2&week=11

[whottt]

That would be a problem with teams who have never been taught to emphasize defense. .


Nope...IMO, it'll be a problem with teams who don't have a coach that preaches it.

No offense to the Pistons' players, but if they are left to their own devices their D will turn to crap.

Not just the Pistons' players...but players from any team, including the Spurs.

If Pop didn't stay on their ass to play D there D wouldn't be near as good...and I see it every single season, where the Spurs players just get lax with their D and Pop has to start benching guys and chewing butts.

I just don't think Flip has that mindset...we'll see what happens.

[Biff Tannen II]

No offense to the Pistons' players, but if they are left to their own devices their D will turn to crap.

Not just the Pistons' players...but players from any team, including the Spurs.

If Pop didn't stay on their ass to play D there D wouldn't be near as good...and I see it every single season, where the Spurs players just get lax with their D and Pop has to start benching guys and chewing butts.

I just don't think Flip has that mindset...we'll see what happens.

Good point, and that is my one concern as a Pistons fan.

I saw 3 games into the season a worrysome D but it was accompanied by an invigorated offense. I am hoping the Pistons are on autopilot D-wise and don't forget their roots.

So far, so good, they're only allowing a bucket more per game than last year and scoring a LOT more. If this continues, only SA stands in their way to winning it all.

[theMUHMEshow]

Espn has issued the coaches ratings by the fans (interactive) for the month of November.

Flip Saunders - 93%
Team: Detroit Pistons
Record: 11-2
Votes: 5,540 Pistons sizzle under Saunders
Larry who? The style of play is different, but the results remain the same. Detroit was the final NBA team to lose this season, as the team seemed to experience no growing pains at all under new head coach Flip Saunders. Chauncey Billups has become one of the NBA's top assist men under Saunders, while Richard Hamilton and Tayshaun Prince have shot the ball well. Roles seem to be very well defined and accepted already, so the Pistons appear poised for a third straight NBA Finals appearance. Vote

Larry Brown - 51%
Team: New York Knicks
Record: 5-9
Votes: 2,089 New York still searching for its identity after one month
After an 0-5 start, the Knicks have showed signs of improvement recently by going 5-4 since then. It should be noted that just one of those five wins came against a team currently with a winning record. Brown has constantly tinkered with his lineup in an effort to find the right mix. Rookie Channing Frye has been a pleasant surprise and gives the team hope moving forward. Brown and Stephon Marbury, the only Knick to start every game this season, have already had a couple disagreements, but it's way too early to judge their relationship. Vote

Greg Poppovich - 92%
Team: San Antonio Spurs
Record: 12-3
Votes: 1,986 Defending champs pick up where they left off
Four months didn't affect the momentum that the Spurs finished with in the NBA Finals. San Antonio has the best record in the Western Conference, and two of its three losses came on a five-game road trip. Tony Parker continues to improve his game, while the additions of Michael Finley and Nick Van Exel have bolstered an already strong nucleus. The Spurs lead the NBA in field-goal percentage and have remained stellar defensively. Vote

http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/sportsnation/ratings?seasonYear=2006&seasonType=2&week=11


Nice Post...I love these ratings...funny to see the difference in number of votes that the Pistons had over NY and SA

[Trainwreck2100]

Good point, and that is my one concern as a Pistons fan.

I saw 3 games into the season a worrysome D but it was accompanied by an invigorated offense. I am hoping the Pistons are on autopilot D-wise and don't forget their roots.

So far, so good, they're only allowing a bucket more per game than last year and scoring a LOT more. If this continues, only SA stands in their way to winning it all.


You don't have to worry about Ben Wallace. He don't have an offensive game.http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/206/rimshot6gx.gif

[jochhejaam]

Larry's finding his "dream job" to be somewhat of a nightmare so far. (6-15)

Brown finding it tough to coach Knicks


GREENBURGH, N.Y. (AP) - Larry Brown hears the boos, too.

Bad shots. Awful defense. Poor decisions. And a whole lot of frustrated fans at Madison Square Garden.
"This is much more difficult right now than I ever imagined," the New York Knicks coach said Thursday after practice.

More than a quarter of the way through his first season in charge of his hometown team, the man who preaches doing things the right way is stuck with a bunch of players doing just about everything wrong.

New York has lost four in a row, falling to 6-15 heading into Friday's game at Atlanta. Worse, after playing well during a recent trip out West, the Knicks haven't been competitive in two games since returning home.

"We're just not doing it," Brown said. "We're not matching the energy of our opponent. We're doing the same things we've done all year. We turn the ball over too much, don't make simple plays, and don't execute very well."

Never was that more evident than recently. In double-digit home losses to Milwaukee and Orlando, the Knicks committed 38 turnovers - they rank last in the league in that category - and left shooters wide open while struggling to defend pick-and-rolls. The Bucks and Magic combined for 23 3-pointers, many of them uncontested.

"They had like miscommunication out there. They didn't help each other," Orlando's Hedo Turkoglu said after the Magic's 105-90 victory Wednesday.

"I think they have a bunch of young guys there and they're still learning, so that's why they messed it up. You can't leave guys who are making shots in a row like that, you have to do something."

Brown isn't the only New Yorker tired of the lapses. The Knicks were booed during both games, especially in the fourth quarter of Wednesday's loss.

"I don't tune them out at all," Brown said. "I hear it all. I'm embarrassed. I know how much they love basketball and love this team and want us to do well. And when we play poorly, I hear it, and it kills me because I'm responsible."

Brown, a Brooklyn native, knew things weren't going to be easy. While the Detroit team he coached to the last two NBA Finals was a veteran club, the Knicks have mostly young players on a mismatched roster that went 33-49 last season.

But he was expecting more veteran help. Instead, he watched Allan Houston retire during training camp. And the Knicks traded Tim Thomas, previously coached by Brown, before the season started.

Combined with injuries to newcomers Eddy Curry and Jerome James, that has left Brown forced to experiment with combinations featuring younger players. He has used already used 15 different starting lineups.

The inexperience is showing on both ends of the court.

"I don't even really have an answer for you," veteran guard Stephon Marbury said. "Right now, as far as for the way we're playing, we're going backwards, we're not going forward."

The turnovers are of the biggest concern to Brown. The Knicks are committing 18.1 per game - some in ways Brown can't even explain.

"I've seen turnovers that they're trying to make the right play," Brown said. "We had two or three dump-down passes that were good passes that we didn't catch. To me, that's a guy trying to make the right play.

"But then we have five or six turnovers where we're ahead on the break and throw it behind us, or we try to throw a crosscourt pass and it goes into the fifth row. I mean, there's things that I've never seen before."

The defensive struggles could be more costly. Players from the Bucks and Magic both pointed to Knicks' inability to stop the pick-and-roll.

According to Brown, his players knew what they were supposed to do.

"We gave up two 3-pointers in the second quarter on a play we went over," he said. "We left a guy that we said we weren't going to leave. So it's just execution."

Brown did say he was pleased with the progress of some of his younger players - some he never expected to be playing so much. But he knows the Knicks' struggles could last a while.

"After these two last games, you look at the schedule, you don't think we'll ever be able to win another game," he said. "But you can only try."

[ShoogarBear]

This article could have been cut and pasted from any of Brown's first seasons with New Jersey, San Antonio, Los Angeles, Indiana, Philadelphia, etc.

Brown always whines when a team is sucking. That's how you know he's happy.

[FreshPrince22]

Check out the Pistons point totals at home:

vs. Phi- 108 pts
vs. Tor- 117 pts
vs. Bos- 115 pts
vs. Den- 114 pts
vs. Was- 114 pts
vs. Nyk- 106 pts
vs. Sac- 109 pts
vs. Chi- 110 pts

:makemyday
________
CumIn5Mins (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/CumIn5Mins)

[jochhejaam]

Check out the Pistons point totals at home:

vs. Phi- 108 pts
vs. Tor- 117 pts
vs. Bos- 115 pts
vs. Den- 114 pts
vs. Was- 114 pts
vs. Nyk- 106 pts
vs. Sac- 109 pts
vs. Chi- 110 pts

:makemyday
:wow 111.5 pts a game and giving up only 96 per game at home!

[Pistons < Spurs]

:wow 111.5 pts a game and giving up only 96 per game at home!


Giving up 96.......I hate that......but our margain of victory makes me feel a little better.

[FreshPrince22]

Giving up 96.......I hate that......but our margain of victory makes me feel a little better.

Well, we just held the Bobkittens to a 26 point first half. So that should make you feel better
:fro
________
LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[jochhejaam]

The comparison has become embarrassing with Flip's Pistons at 22-3 and Larry's Knicks at 7-19. Pleasantly surprised by the Pistons early success and just as surprised that the Knicks don't have a better record.

At this time last year the Knicks were 13-13 and the Pistons were 13-12.

Flip's definitely out-performing Larry.