Mario Elie: "Hakeem More Skilled Than TD."

[Thomas82]

I just came across this article about a Sirius XM interview Mario Elie did this past Thursday, where he was asked to pick between Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon. Of course this is no surprise, especially since TD has been heavily discredited over the last week. Anyway, here's a link to the article if you want to read it:

https://rocketswire.usatoday.com/2020/05/21/mario-elie-says-hakeem-olajuwon-was-more-skilled-than-tim-duncan/

[lmbebo]

Don't think thats discrediting TD. 1 on 1, I'd probably give an edge to Hakeem. He was a monster. I think TD had the better career and made an impact far longer than Hakeem did.

[daslicer]

Wow another former teammate discrediting TD to build up somebody else.

[Thomas82]

Don't think thats discrediting TD. 1 on 1, I'd probably give an edge to Hakeem. He was a monster. I think TD had the better career and made an impact far longer than Hakeem did.

Maybe not in this case, but what Shaq, Stephen Jackson, and Bruce Bowen all said last week about TD most certainly was.

[lefty]

Well I have to agree with Elie on this one

[ChumpDumper]

Hakeem was in god mode for two seasons and I'll say he had better offensive skills. TD was better over his career IMO. We shouldn't get all busted up over former players' opinions while no games can be played.

[Robz4000]

Hakeem might've been the most dominant big man in his prime outside Shaq tbh, but Duncan's prime lasted much longer.

[InRareForm]

NBA needs to come back these dumb hypothetical versus question are getting annoying

[Joseph Kony]

He probably was more skilled. But Tim was still better. People overrate the hell out of Hakeem because of two GOAT level years but dude fell of a cliff hard not long after

[dbreiden83080]

Meh I guess.. I feel like Hakeem gets overrated TBH.. He was great no doubt. But I don't have him ahead of Duncan or Shaq. And 2nd tier on all time centers..

[spurs1990]

Very similar career paths.

Dream's first 11 seasons were HOF worthy - 1985-1995.
Same for TD - 1998-2008.

Both of their last 7 or 8 years were up and down, but Duncan had better personal and team success.
It's the latter that makes it hard to compare. Not to mention one player had five years battling in rough and tumble 80s NBA. Hakeem himself was involved in a dozen fights based on YouTube videos I've seen.

[KobesAchilles]

Horry said the same thing tbh. The hits just keep coming for Jim. By the time his HOF speech comes around he’s gonna be 3rd fiddle to KG. Look for the KG over Duncan articles to come out where they interview former players. “If you give KG the same situation as Tim, he gets 5 rings too.”

[ChumpDumper]

Horry said the same thing tbh. The hits just keep coming for Jim. By the time his HOF speech comes around he’s gonna be 3rd fiddle to KG. Look for the KG over Duncan articles to come out where they interview former players. “If you give KG the same situation as Tim, he gets 5 rings too.”If you give Tim the same situation as KG, he gets 5 rings too.

[Genovaswitness]

fucking clown should give back his 99 ring

[Johnsyounger]

Hakeem was more skilled, Shaq was more dominant, Bird was more clutch etc etc etc. A number of players in their "prime" were better for a short spell.
Duncan did it longer than any of them. Consistency was his #1 attribute. Hurt his knee and just kept cruising. None of the others did.
Thats why he's GOAT

[Dirks_Finale]

Honestly, don't see it. If it's true, they are like 1 and 1A.

Elie should probably watch the 2003 Finals vs the Nets. Duncan put up playstation numbers in that series. Pretty much carried the team on his back the same way Hakeem did.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

they should ask who’s the best at winning

[TD 21]

Honestly, don't see it. If it's true, they are like 1 and 1A.

Elie should probably watch the 2003 Finals vs the Nets. Duncan put up playstation numbers in that series. Pretty much carried the team on his back the same way Hakeem did.

Most players are like casual fans, relying on a combination of counting stats and flashiness to form opinions.

For some reason, Olajuwon's '94 and '95 runs are mythologized, but Duncan's '99 and '03 ones are largely forgotten. In general, the pre tendonosis version is. All the seem to remember is the one legged, "culture" and "system" version.

Blame the media for beating this nonsense into the masses psyche and them for being so easily brainwashed.

[jjktkk]

Ask the Admiral about Hakeem's 'Dream Shake"? But like others have mentioned in this thread, Tim gets my nod just for his longevity of greatness over a long career, much longer than Olajuwon.

[widowmaker]

Maybe but Duncan has more rings. Count them.

[Michael Jordan.]

Most players are like casual fans, relying on a combination of counting stats and flashiness to form opinions.

For some reason, Olajuwon's '94 and '95 runs are mythologized, but Duncan's '99 and '03 ones are largely forgotten. In general, the pre tendonosis version is. All the seem to remember is the one legged, "culture" and "system" version.

Blame the media for beating this nonsense into the masses psyche and them for being so easily brainwashed.
Yet you should check out Dream’s series against Kareem in 86.

[Michael Jordan.]

they should ask who’s the best at winning
Or who had the better coach and organization

[Michael Jordan.]

Hakeem was more skilled, Shaq was more dominant, Bird was more clutch etc etc etc. A number of players in their "prime" were better for a short spell.
Duncan did it longer than any of them. Consistency was his #1 attribute. Hurt his knee and just kept cruising. None of the others did.
Thats why he's GOAT

Having a prime Manu and Ginobli both helped his longevity. Along with Pop resting him on back to backs.

[Down Under]

Probably true - definitely more skilled than Shaq. But they're both better - Shaq was the most dominant offensive big man of all time, Duncan was more consistent & performed at a higher level for longer.

[TD 21]

Or who had the better coach and organization

Did you even know who Popovich and Buford were before Duncan arrived? He made them, just like all great players make coaches/GM's . . . it all of about 5 minutes after he retired for them to not look so smart anymore.

The fact that they remained in contention and won a championship (without another superstar/star) while in the midst of retooling was a testament to Duncan not needing them.

[Seventyniner]

On offense, I can see the point. While Duncan had impeccable footwork in the post, Hakeem's offensive arsenal was devastating.

I'd take Tim for individual defense, but again it's close.

What clinches it for me is team defense. Duncan is perhaps the best team defensive anchor I have ever seen, in terms of directing traffic, communicating, and general awareness of where to be and what to do. To me, this is why he was so effective even late in his career when he couldn't jump over a phone book.

[dbestpro]

Hakem was a center. Duncan was really a PF. There really use to be a difference.

[weebo]

I don't get it. I consider TD a GOAT. I mean. What's the criteria? All these ex-ballers putting other guys ahead of TD, why? TD did everything you're supposed to do and especially WIN. He won POs series, titles, has a winning percentage of over 70%.

[MultiTroll]

Defense.
Duncan.

[TDfan2007]

Eh, it's kind of splitting hairs between the two of them, but I can see the argument for Hakeem being more skilled.

Post play: slight edge to Hakeem
Faceup game: slight edge to Timmy
Outside shooting: wash
FT shooting: big edge to Hakeem
Passing: Timmy is the clearly better passer
Rebounding: wash
Individual defense: slight edge to Hakeem
Team defense: slight edge to Timmy

The key thing here is that Ellie played with Hakeem at his absolute peak, and he played with Timmy just before his peak, so it's not exactly a fair comparison from his point of view. Either way, and this is key, being more skilled doesn't make you a greater/better player. There are plenty of players in the NBA who were more skilled than Shaq, but very few who were greater.

[TDfan2007]

On offense, I can see the point. While Duncan had impeccable footwork in the post, Hakeem's offensive arsenal was devastating.

I'd take Tim for individual defense, but again it's close.

What clinches it for me is team defense. Duncan is perhaps the best team defensive anchor I have ever seen, in terms of directing traffic, communicating, and general awareness of where to be and what to do. To me, this is why he was so effective even late in his career when he couldn't jump over a phone book.

This is a really fair take imo. I don't think anyone other than maybe Larry Bird or Magic had TD's spatial awareness. It was uncanny.

[GAustex]

Tim was a better leader and fulcrum of the team.
Dream was a handful.

[daslicer]

I don't get it. I consider TD a GOAT. I mean. What's the criteria? All these ex-ballers putting other guys ahead of TD, why? TD did everything you're supposed to do and especially WIN. He won POs series, titles, has a winning percentage of over 70%.

It's all about popularity and not talent.

[spurs10]

Elie and Jackson are just two more people he doesn't need to deal with in the future.. He's a Hall Of Fame shoe-in and they've simply made their coattail relationship with him meaningless. They both played a part in his legacy, but have cheapened that relationship with him.....the greatest of all time.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Ugh, so who's the next salty asshole ex teammate to talk TD down?

I'd go for AJ.

[FrostKing]

I would draft Tim over Hakeem

[TDfan2007]

This is not talking down Timmy, guys :lol These dudes are being asked to compare players and then giving honest opinions. There is an argument for Hakeem being more skilled, and Ellie played with him for more years and at his absolute peak, so it's understandable that he'd pick Hakeem.

What Horry said about Hakeem being 20x better than Timmy was disrespectful and obviously stupid, but Jax and Ellie aren't disrespecting him just by saying that they prefer another ALL TIME HoF talent.

[Thomas82]

Tim was a better leader and fulcrum of the team.
Dream was a handful.

I remember when the Rockets were trying to trade Hakeem to Miami, in a deal that had Rony Seikly as the centerpiece, but the Heat turned it down.

[Michael Jordan.]

Did you even know who Popovich and Buford were before Duncan arrived? He made them, just like all great players make coaches/GM's . . . it all of about 5 minutes after he retired for them to not look so smart anymore.

The fact that they remained in contention and won a championship (without another superstar/star) while in the midst of retooling was a testament to Duncan not needing them.
Weren’t the Spurs winning 60 something games a few years before Duncan arrived?

[Michael Jordan.]

Post play, Hakeem was way better than Duncan.

[Michael Jordan.]

Individual defense Hakeem has the most blocks all time and is top 10 in steals. He was more than slightly better individually

[wingster]

Weren’t the Spurs winning 60 something games a few years before Duncan arrived?
Pop didn't coach until the 96-97 season.

[Michael Jordan.]

Pop didn't coach until the 96-97 season.
I know. I used that example to show the Spurs organization was still winning games and was a better organization.

[Michael Jordan.]

Also longevity wise, Duncan never averaged over 35 minutes a game during the regular season after he was 27. So his minutes lowering in his prime helped him. Dream was averaging 41 MPG at 31 or something and was consistently playing more than 35 MPG into his 30’s. There was no luxury to rest him or play less minutes

[Thomas82]

Weren’t the Spurs winning 60 something games a few years before Duncan arrived?

The 1994-95 season was the first time in Spurs history that they won 60 games.

[SayTown]

It's not Duncan's fault that he had good perimeter defenders around him that kept their defenders out of the paint thus negating his block opportunities. Duncan is easily the better team defender.

[FrostKing]

Peak Hakeem is Top 3 center. Duncan is a classic PF judged by an Era with stretch 4's

Tim clearly the better career and I wouldn't count him out even at Hakeem's height.

[TD 21]

There's no functional difference in the role they played on either side of the ball. Duncan was always a C, he just started next to another C and primarily played nominal PF for his first 9 seasons, which is why it's accurate to refer to him as the greatest PF of all-time.


Weren’t the Spurs winning 60 something games a few years before Duncan arrived?

Primarily thanks to Robinson, who was arguably the best regular season player in the league at the time.

:lmao Using counting stats to determine who the better defender was. Duncan is arguably the greatest team defender of all-time.

They actually scored on basically equal efficiency. The difference was, Olajuwon played more and had a higher usage, therefore he averaged more points. As ever, the catch all metrics provide far greater insight.

[TD4THREE]

Individual defense Hakeem has the most blocks all time and is top 10 in steals. He was more than slightly better individuallyDuncan didn't have the luxury of several of his prime years being played in the blistering pace that was the 80s NBA, but rather the sluggish paced era of the late 90s and early to mid 2000s. How many guys from Tim's era were averaging 4+ blocks a game like the half dozen or more that did so from Hakeem's era? The last 20 years if you averaged 2-3 blocks a game, you were doing something, back then not really.

[8FOR!3]

I have to point out that Elie was only in the league for Duncan's first few years so he didn't really see him develop his skills over his career from a teammate or competitive viewpoint anyways.

[dbestpro]

There's no functional difference in the role they played on either side of the ball. Duncan was always a C, he just started next to another C and primarily played nominal PF for his first 9 seasons, which is why it's accurate to refer to him as the greatest PF of all-time.



Having watched basketball since the 1960s, I could not disagree more. Duncan was a true PF and only moved to a center role when Pop rolled out small ball. This thinking would basically say that any rebounding PF is actually a center. It simply is a false narrative brought on by the modern day destruction of the center position.

[Brazil]

More skilled ? at what tbh ?

[Biggems]

Ask the Admiral about Hakeem's 'Dream Shake"? But like others have mentioned in this thread, Tim gets my nod just for his longevity of greatness over a long career, much longer than Olajuwon.

Ask the dream why he needed help all series to guard the Admiral. David was double and triple teamed game in and game out....Rudy T absolutely owned Bob Hill in the series.

[Maddog]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Tim+Duncan&player_id1_select=Tim+Duncan&player_id1=duncati01&player_id2_hint=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id2_select=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id2=olajuha01&idx=bbr__players

Raw Stat wise they are pretty even maybe even advantage Hakeem, But Tim really much higher on WS and WS/48. As mentioned earlier the game has changed. By the late 90s it had become very slow- then changes in defenses (Zones etc)

Memories are often subjective, and Mario played with Hakeem at his peak- but also a few years as he declined.

TD Hakeem
5 rings 2 Rings
6 Finals 3 Finals
9 Conference Finals 4 Conference Finals
251 Playoff games 145 Playoff Games

I think Tim was the overall better player, but I think Hakeem is underappreciated- he played for some really mediocre teams that for 4 straight years in his prime couldn't get out of the first round.

[ginobilized]

I can't wait for TD to come out with his Brent Barry was more skilled than Mario Elie rebuttal

That will teach him

[TD 21]

Having watched basketball since the 1960s, I could not disagree more. Duncan was a true PF and only moved to a center role when Pop rolled out small ball. This thinking would basically say that any rebounding PF is actually a center. It simply is a false narrative brought on by the modern day destruction of the center position.

That's not true. He was a C in college who only primarily played PF because he was drafted to a team with a top 2-3 C in the league at the time. Sure, traditionally many players have played up a position in college because the rosters are smaller, but his skillset always veered more towards it.

Think about it. Sure, he had uncommon agility and handle for a C, but as far as core skills: dominant mid-low post scorer, rebounder and rim protector, with a so-so jumper and good, not great defender range. That basically sums up Olajuwon. The difference was, the Rockets listed Sampson as the nominal PF and Olajuwon didn't chafe at the C label.

My take on positions: https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285613&p=10146981#post10146981

[TDfan2007]

Post play, Hakeem was way better than Duncan.

They were different. Timmy had all of the moves, but his post moves were more about positioning, leverage, and footwork. Hakeem used more upper body jukes and spins, but less pivots/drop steps. Both were completely unstoppable on the block.


Individual defense Hakeem has the most blocks all time and is top 10 in steals. He was more than slightly better individually

You do realize that both of those stats are mainly a result of help defense, right? Also, that's a really simplistic way of trying to make a point...

[spurraider21]

Individual defense Hakeem has the most blocks all time and is top 10 in steals. He was more than slightly better individually
arent blocks more indicative of team defense (marcus camby) than individual D?

[spurraider21]

FT shooting: big edge to Hakeem
Hakeem career FT% - 71.2
Duncan career FT% - 69.6

[Thomas82]

Ask the dream why he needed help all series to guard the Admiral. David was double and triple teamed game in and game out....Rudy T absolutely owned Bob Hill in the series.

Facts!! Bob Hill made not one single adjustment.

[Thomas82]

That's not true. He was a C in college who only primarily played PF because he was drafted to a team with a top 2-3 C in the league at the time. Sure, traditionally many players have played up a position in college because the rosters are smaller, but his skillset always veered more towards it.

Think about it. Sure, he had uncommon agility and handle for a C, but as far as core skills: dominant mid-low post scorer, rebounder and rim protector, with a so-so jumper and good, not great defender range. That basically sums up Olajuwon. The difference was, the Rockets listed Sampson as the nominal PF and Olajuwon didn't chafe at the C label.

My take on positions: https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285613&p=10146981#post10146981

But TD played center in college for the same reason he played it for long stretches for the Spurs......they didn't have anybody else. The 2 players recruited ahead of him were ruled ineligible.

[TDfan2007]

Hakeem career FT% - 71.2
Duncan career FT% - 69.6

That's a fair point lol, but I'm docking Timmy for his FT shooting in his prime. It's arbitrary to do so, I know, but the Spurs lost quite a few big games because of his shakiness at the FT line. He improved significantly from 2011 on, but in his prime he was a liability there in all but one season (01-02).

[Arcadian]

:lol Such a meaningless statement. "Skills" is such a broad category, all you can say is they each had better skills in different ways. Tim the overall better player though.

[TDfan2007]

Tim Duncan is one of the most complete basketball players ever. Anything he didn't do (shoot 3s, chuck 20+ shots to get his points) was all in the interest of the team. He knew what it took to win, and he did exactly what was needed, nothing more.

Two aspects about Timmy that are very underrated are how clutch he was and his passing ability. He was the Spurs closer for their first 2 titles and almost always stepped up his game in the playoffs, even in his later years. As for his passing, after his first couple of seasons, Timmy became one of the best big man passers in the game. He's one of the few superstars in NBA history who could totally control a game without dominating the ball, and it was beautiful to watch

[dbreiden83080]

Post play, Hakeem was way better than Duncan.

Tim Duncan was so incredible on the block to say anybody is much better than him in terms of post play pretty much means to me you didn’t watch.

[dbreiden83080]

That's a fair point lol, but I'm docking Timmy for his FT shooting in his prime. It's arbitrary to do so, I know, but the Spurs lost quite a few big games because of his shakiness at the FT line. He improved significantly from 2011 on, but in his prime he was a liability there in all but one season (01-02).
Foul shooting is the one strange thing about his career. Because by 2002 it appeared he was now very good at the line. Then for the next few seasons he really struggled. Was changing up his approach. Taking forever to shoot each foul shot, when he used to shoot them very quickly. For Whatever reason it became a little bit of a mental block.

[TD 21]

But TD played center in college for the same reason he played it for long stretches for the Spurs......they didn't have anybody else. The 2 players recruited ahead of him were ruled ineligible.

Other than around '09-'11ish, the Spurs were always well stocked with C's and it's not like they had a clear starter at PF, that necessitated his shifting to defending C's.

[Thomas82]

Other than around '09-'11ish, the Spurs were always well stocked with C's and it's not like they had a clear starter at PF, that necessitated his shifting to defending C's.

That was actually the time frame I was referencing. I guess I should have been more clear. But to your point, he basically had to produce for both post positions in those years.

[rascal]

Probably true - definitely more skilled than Shaq. But they're both better - Shaq was the most dominant offensive big man of all time, Duncan was more consistent & performed at a higher level for longer.

Nope Wilt Chamberlain was the most dominate.

[exstatic]

Ask the dream why he needed help all series to guard the Admiral. David was double and triple teamed game in and game out....Rudy T absolutely owned Bob Hill in the series.

Not a Bob Hill fan at all, but his plan was twofold: play the shooters, and let Hakeem go one on one. David got scored on a lot, but it would have worked if Rodbaby would have done his job, and stayed on Horry. A nearly identical plan worked to perfection a little over a decade later against PHO. We played the shooters, and A'm'a'r'e went off, but we won. No one talks about him outplaying Tim because we won.

[Michael Jordan.]

Tim Duncan was so incredible on the block to say anybody is much better than him in terms of post play pretty much means to me you didn’t watch.
Post play, Hakeem had the speed and agility to take his defenders off the dribble and score at the rim. He was better at it than Tim. His moves in the post were unstoppable just about.

[Michael Jordan.]

Tim Duncan was so incredible on the block to say anybody is much better than him in terms of post play pretty much means to me you didn’t watch.Post play, Hakeem had the speed and agility to take his defenders off the dribble and score at the rim. He was better at it than Tim. His moves in the post were unstoppable just about.

[Michael Jordan.]

More skilled ? at what tbh ?
Scoring. Free throw shooting. Post play. Steals. Ability to guard 1-5. Agility. Speed. Footwork.

[Michael Jordan.]

Interesting stat, as Hakeem’s teammates Mitchell Wiggins and Lloyd were both banned from the NBA in 87 for drug use, Lloyd averaged about 17 a game that 86 season and 7 points a game in that finals series against Boston.

[TDfan2007]

Post play, Hakeem had the speed and agility to take his defenders off the dribble and score at the rim. He was better at it than Tim. His moves in the post were unstoppable just about.

Someone needs to look up film of prime Tim Duncan. His faceup game was incredible and he could take almost anyone off the dribble from the high post. Hell, even on 1 knee he was turning and facing effectively from 15 ft and in. Speed means almost nothing in low post play, btw, so not sure what you're getting at there.

[TDfan2007]

Post play, Hakeem had the speed and agility to take his defenders off the dribble and score at the rim. He was better at it than Tim. His moves in the post were unstoppable just about.

Someone needs to look up film of prime Tim Duncan. His faceup game was incredible and he could take almost anyone off the dribble from the high post. Hell, even on 1 knee he was turning and facing effectively from 15 ft and in. Speed means almost nothing in low post play, btw, so not sure what you're getting at there.

[Down Under]

Nope Wilt Chamberlain was the most dominate.
Nar - the more he tried to score & break individual records (scoring, assists) the worse his team did.

[Michael Jordan.]

Someone needs to look up film of prime Tim Duncan. His faceup game was incredible and he could take almost anyone off the dribble from the high post. Hell, even on 1 knee he was turning and facing effectively from 15 ft and in. Speed means almost nothing in low post play, btw, so not sure what you're getting at there.
That’s the difference. “Almost”. Hakeem could take anyone off the high post.

[TDfan2007]

That’s the difference. “Almost”. Hakeem could take anyone off the high post.

I said almost because I don't like dealing in absolutes, and I don't think he'd try against SFs. I can't think of any 4 or 5 that Timmy couldn't take off the dribble from the high post. The Wallaces, KG, Shaq, Camby, etc. Can you?

Anyway, point being that even if one were to give Hakeem the edge as a scorer because of his FT shooting and slightly better low post game, the difference isn't as great as you've suggested. Where there is a great difference between the two is in showmanship. Hakeem's game was flashier

Btw, another key element to offense is passing ability, and Timmy is one of the best passing bigs of all time.

[Michael Jordan.]

Lol slightly better. Nobody could handle Dream when he had it going

https://i.gifer.com/9fnD.gif

[Michael Jordan.]

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZirQiCgPiXg/VApD7kPFTrI/AAAAAAAAJvE/-dB0iJRrhv8/s1600/25znyaq.gif

[Michael Jordan.]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-21-2017/tLa3ON.gif

[dbreiden83080]

Lol slightly better. Nobody could handle Dream when he had it going

https://i.gifer.com/9fnD.gif

He didn’t have it going often enough. Take a look at how often his Houston Rockets got dumped out of the playoffs unceremoniously. He didn’t make his teammates better often enough. Not like Tim Duncan.

[lefty]

Duncan destroyed Robinson in practice
Hakeem destroyed Robinson in games

[lefty]

He didn’t have it going often enough. Take a look at how often his Houston Rockets got dumped out of the playoffs unceremoniously. He didn’t make his teammates better often enough. Not like Tim Duncan.
No HOF teammate in 1994

Also went against Ewing, Robinson and Shaq during his title runs so basically the other best players at his position

[ElNono]

tbh, Tim was much better, but his knee injury really slowed him down. Probably comparing a crippled TD with Hakeem is more on the ballpark.

[james evans]

hold up, are people here actually arguing that Tim Duncan was better than Hakeem? Duncan is my favorite player of all time, but even I know Hakeem is better. I'm not a fucking fool.

[james evans]

He didn’t have it going often enough. Take a look at how often his Houston Rockets got dumped out of the playoffs unceremoniously. He didn’t make his teammates better often enough. Not like Tim Duncan.
as much as I hate Tony Parker, I will agree that he's better than Kenny Smith. And Ginobili is obviously better than Vernon Maxwell. Do we agree on that? Oh yeah, and Robinson in 99 is better than Thorpe in 94. These things aren't debatable. With no other HOF teammates in 94, became the only player in history to win MVP, finals MVP, and DPOY in same season.

[TD4THREE]

hold up, are people here actually arguing that Tim Duncan was better than Hakeem? Duncan is my favorite player of all time, but even I know Hakeem is better. I'm not a fucking fool.It's pretty much a consensus that Tim Duncan is a top 7 or 8 player of all time. If you think there's no comparison then you're basically implying that Hakeem is top 4 or 5 player of all time which is indeed very foolish, given that during most of his career it wasn't even a consensus that he was better than guys like Barkley, Malone, and yes even Robinson and Ewing.

During that era there was Jordan and everbody else, before 94 and 95, It wasn't even settled who the best center was between Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing. But literally two playoff series changed his status as being arguably the best center of his era to he's better than guys like Duncan, Shaq, and Jabbar. It's fine if you think he's on their level, I just don't agree with this 'way better' crap that people are throwing around based almost entirely on two playoffs.

[Brazil]

Scoring. Free throw shooting. Post play. Steals. Ability to guard 1-5. Agility. Speed. Footwork.

:lol oh you are talking about their .5 pts gap in their scoring stat ? you sir are a rocket fan :lol
There is nothing in what you are cherry picking showing that Hakeem is more "skilled" in any shape or form than Tim.

[lefty]

Hakeem WAS more talented, stop being a bunch a homers

But Duncan aged better

[lefty]

as much as I hate Tony Parker, I will agree that he's better than Kenny Smith. And Ginobili is obviously better than Vernon Maxwell. Do we agree on that? Oh yeah, and Robinson in 99 is better than Thorpe in 94. These things aren't debatable. With no other HOF teammates in 94, became the only player in history to win MVP, finals MVP, and DPOY in same season.

[Thomas82]

tbh, Tim was much better, but his knee injury really slowed him down. Probably comparing a crippled TD with Hakeem is more on the ballpark.

People always miss this point when they compare TD to any other player.

[Brazil]

Hakeem WAS more talented, stop being a bunch a homers

But Duncan aged better

here another fluffy concept.. talented.. :lol

Duncan aged better despite his blown up knee ? I guess with a good knee during his whole career this would not even be a debate then...

:lol more talented
:lol more skilled
:lol narratives... Duncan has already the better silverware let us give to rocket fans the talented, skilled stuff

[lefty]

here another fluffy concept.. talented.. :lol

Duncan aged better despite his blown up knee ? I guess with a good knee during his whole career this would not even be a debate then...

:lol more talented
:lol more skilled
:lol narratives... Duncan has already the better silverware let us give to rocket fans the talented, skilled stuff
Hakeem was more skilled
Better footwork better passer better defender its not a debate and it’s shouldn’t be a debate

[lefty]

Got what :lol

1265796583934869504

[TDfan2007]

Hakeem was more skilled
Better footwork better passer better defender its not a debate and it’s shouldn’t be a debate

Better passer? Better footwork? Are you kidding me? I'll give you better defender, but they both had phenomenal firework (just different styles) and GTFO with this better passer nonsense.

Passing is the one thing that Timmy clearly did better than Hakeem. He used to regularly close games with his passing ability. Hell, he closed 2 series in the 2003 playoffs with triple doubles/double figure assists.

[TDfan2007]

as much as I hate Tony Parker, I will agree that he's better than Kenny Smith. And Ginobili is obviously better than Vernon Maxwell. Do we agree on that? Oh yeah, and Robinson in 99 is better than Thorpe in 94. These things aren't debatable. With no other HOF teammates in 94, became the only player in history to win MVP, finals MVP, and DPOY in same season.

What Hakeem did in 94 was incredible, no doubt. And you'll hear no arguments a from me about Manu's contribution from 2005 and on, but people forget how much Tony struggled in his first 2 championship runs with us.

2003 playoffs PER: 11.9
2005 playoffs PER 12.0

The league average for PER is set at 15. Those numbers are TERRIBLE. Sam Cassell played much better for the Rockets in their 2 titles than Tony did in 2003 and 2005. Hell, even Kenny did :lol

That 94 team had no other all star, but Sam Cassell was a very good player at that time, and Robert Horry was a great role player.

[dbestpro]

as much as I hate Tony Parker, I will agree that he's better than Kenny Smith. And Ginobili is obviously better than Vernon Maxwell. Do we agree on that? Oh yeah, and Robinson in 99 is better than Thorpe in 94. These things aren't debatable. With no other HOF teammates in 94, became the only player in history to win MVP, finals MVP, and DPOY in same season.

The real question is how good at basketball really was Alvin Robertson?

[james evans]

What Hakeem did in 94 was incredible, no doubt. And you'll hear no arguments a from me about Manu's contribution from 2005 and on, but people forget how much Tony struggled in his first 2 championship runs with us.

2003 playoffs PER: 11.9
2005 playoffs PER 12.0

The league average for PER is set at 15. Those numbers are TERRIBLE. Sam Cassell played much better for the Rockets in their 2 titles than Tony did in 2003 and 2005. Hell, even Kenny did :lol

That 94 team had no other all star, but Sam Cassell was a very good player at that time, and Robert Horry was a great role player.
i'm not disagreeing with you at all in 03.. The 03 finals, Kidd tore his ass up. From games 4-6, he was Kidd's bitch.

I think Hakeem and Duncan are both top 10 players(I never thought Kobe was and I still don't), but if I had a choice betwen the 2 all time, I'm going with Hakeem, though you can't go wrong with either. And for the record once again, Duncan is my all time favorite player. . One thing's for sure, Jordan aint winning a title with the 94 Rockets or 03 Spurs in Duncan or Hakeem's spot.

[lefty]

Better passer? Better footwork? Are you kidding me? I'll give you better defender, but they both had phenomenal firework (just different styles) and GTFO with this better passer nonsense.

Passing is the one thing that Timmy clearly did better than Hakeem. He used to regularly close games with his passing ability. Hell, he closed 2 series in the 2003 playoffs with triple doubles/double figure assists.
lol numbers don't prove he i a better passer

If that's thecase then T Mac was a defender than Bowen because more blocks per game

Hakeem was superior to Duncan and there is nothing wrong with that, it doesn't take away from Tim's greatness

[Brazil]

Hakeem was more skilled
Better footwork better passer better defender its not a debate and it’s shouldn’t be a debate

More skilled than the big fundamental... yeah right.. :lol skilled

also :lol at your better passer.. even defender... stay with the cute concepts like talent, skills, footwork... at least no numbers will kick your ass :lol

it has been a while you are not a spurs fan so it's not for you but I don't get the stockholm syndrom of spurs fans lately... some fuckers are trying to tarnish Tim legacy and spurs fans are like meh... well.. you know... yeah..

gtfoh tbh...

[daslicer]

More skilled than the big fundamental... yeah right.. :lol skilled

also :lol at your better passer.. even defender... stay with the cute concepts like talent, skills, footwork... at least no numbers will kick your ass :lol

it has been a while you are not a spurs fan so it's not for you but I don't get the stockholm syndrom of spurs fans lately... some fuckers are trying to tarnish Tim legacy and spurs fans are like meh... well.. you know... yeah..

gtfoh tbh...

Most spur fans have defended Tim in this thread. The only guys I have seen trump Hakeem over him are trolls and old guys who above 50. Then there is James Evans who just doesn't like Tim because Tim is not a real black man in his eyes.

[lefty]

Damn you guys ate butthurt :lol

Fucking homers

[lefty]

More skilled than the big fundamental... yeah right.. :lol skilled

also :lol at your better passer.. even defender... stay with the cute concepts like talent, skills, footwork... at least no numbers will kick your ass :lol

it has been a while you are not a spurs fan so it's not for you but I don't get the stockholm syndrom of spurs fans lately... some fuckers are trying to tarnish Tim legacy and spurs fans are like meh... well.. you know... yeah..

gtfoh tbh...
Still a Spurs fan tbh and before the Duncan days, Parkerfan

I’m not biased like some

[Thomas82]

What Hakeem did in 94 was incredible, no doubt. And you'll hear no arguments a from me about Manu's contribution from 2005 and on, but people forget how much Tony struggled in his first 2 championship runs with us.

2003 playoffs PER: 11.9
2005 playoffs PER 12.0

The league average for PER is set at 15. Those numbers are TERRIBLE. Sam Cassell played much better for the Rockets in their 2 titles than Tony did in 2003 and 2005. Hell, even Kenny did :lol

That 94 team had no other all star, but Sam Cassell was a very good player at that time, and Robert Horry was a great role player.

Don't forget Otis Thorpe. His contributions were big as well. He was good for 17 points and about 8/9 rebounds a night.

[Killakobe81]

Hakeem might've been the most dominant big man in his prime outside Shaq tbh, but Duncan's prime lasted much longer.

100%
Spot the lie in this post... Can't find one.

[TD4THREE]

Damn you act like people are saying Duncan is better than Jordan, instead of player that Tim Duncan has more than double the amount of championships, double the MVPs, vastly better regular season and playoff success, more All-Nba selections, better longevity, better consistency. It doesn't make you a homer if you think Duncan was better :lol, most people do in fact.

[Thomas82]

Damn you act like people are saying Duncan is better than Jordan, instead of player that Tim Duncan has more than double the amount of championships, double the MVPs, vastly better regular season and playoff success, more All-Nba selections, better longevity, better consistency. It doesn't make you a homer if you think Duncan was better :lol, most people do in fact.

I can't find a lie in this post.

[TDfan2007]

lol numbers don't prove he i a better passer

If that's thecase then T Mac was a defender than Bowen because more blocks per game

Hakeem was superior to Duncan and there is nothing wrong with that, it doesn't take away from Tim's greatness

Tim and Hakeem could both pass out of the post well, but Tim also excelled as a high-low passer, and was one of the greatest outlet passers of all time.

As for your comment about numbers, if anything that works in Tim's favor. His game has never been about the raw numbers lol, and you know this.

[TDfan2007]

100%
Spot the lie in this post... Can't find one.

How's this?

"DWade might've been the most dominant SG in his prime outside Jordan tbh, but Kobe's prime lasted much longer"

Kobe never had a playoff run comparable to Wade's in 2006, and definitely not a comparable Finals performance, but nobody in their right mind would take Wade above Kobe.

[TDfan2007]

As for the argument over who had a better peak, here are Tim's playoff advanced stats from the 2002 through 2007 (99 games):

PER 27.6 WS/48 0.231 DBPM 3

Let's compare to Hakeem's legendary 94 and 95 championship runs (45 games)

PER 27.2 WS/48 0.177 DBPM 3.3

Looks pretty even to me, with Tim having the slight edge in efficiency, and Hakeem the slight edge in defensive impact. Somehow, although Tim always had "so much help," he managed to produce significantly more win shares than Hakeem.

Again, there is an argument for Hakeem being more skilled, but it's close, and the argument can go in Tim's favor as well. What bothers me is people pretending like it's no contest between the two just because one guy used a dream shake and other other used angles and the backboard...

[dbreiden83080]

Damn you act like people are saying Duncan is better than Jordan, instead of player that Tim Duncan has more than double the amount of championships, double the MVPs, vastly better regular season and playoff success, more All-Nba selections, better longevity, better consistency. It doesn't make you a homer if you think Duncan was better :lol, most people do in fact.

You have a small segment of people that say Hakeem is better.. They are just getting loud...

[dbreiden83080]

Lol slightly better. Nobody could handle Dream when he had it going

https://i.gifer.com/9fnD.gif


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZirQiCgPiXg/VApD7kPFTrI/AAAAAAAAJvE/-dB0iJRrhv8/s1600/25znyaq.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-21-2017/tLa3ON.gif


http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/assets/4991524/faried.gif

http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/assets/4992502/vs_howard.gif

http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4992622/hawks.gif

[TDfan2007]

http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/assets/4991524/faried.gif

http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/assets/4992502/vs_howard.gif

http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4992622/hawks.gif

Great stuff. Can't forget that these moves were on one good knee and against very solid defenders.

[Seventyniner]

Tim and Hakeem could both pass out of the post well, but Tim also excelled as a high-low passer, and was one of the greatest outlet passers of all time.

As for your comment about numbers, if anything that works in Tim's favor. His game has never been about the raw numbers lol, and you know this.

Great point about the outlet passing. Tim's skill in that was sublime.

And this doesn't just cover full-court touchdown passes to teammates who leaked out. Tim was amazing at getting the rebound and quickly getting the ball to a guard (usually Tony) streaking up the floor for a 4-on-3 opportunity. With Tony, a lot of times this turned into 1-on-3 but he was pretty good at finishing those anyway.

[HarlemHeat37]

Hakeem was definitely more skilled at grooming young girls to satisfy his pedophilia.

[DMC]

Hakeem was amazing. People have short memories, he was once considered in the top 10 all time until the come-lately folks started pushing faggots like Kobe and Shaq up there.

[lefty]

http://cdn3.vox-cdn.com/assets/4991524/faried.gif

http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/assets/4992502/vs_howard.gif

http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4992622/hawks.gif
lol replying to gifs of Hakeem going off vs the top centers of the NBA in the postseason with DUncan going off against scrubs in the regular season :lol

[dbreiden83080]

lol replying to gifs of Hakeem going off vs the top centers of the NBA in the postseason with DUncan going off against scrubs in the regular season :lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ

10 Minutes of Tim giving Shaq, and the Lakers the Business. Is that better Princess?

[lefty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6AgYWdoBQ

10 Minutes of Tim giving Shaq, and the Lakers the Business. Is that better Princess?
Shsq was fat and out of shape in 03

95 Shaq was a beast

Nice try though

[dbreiden83080]

Shsq was fat and out of shape in 03

95 Shaq was a beast

Nice try though

Uh huh..


34/25 in 2002..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2MwyaXYFjs

37/14 in 1999


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt-6dG_dKjM

[ZeusWillJudge]

People getting worked up at an obvious troll job. :lol


They were different players, with different strengths. The one thing that you can't (shouldn't) overlook is their Free Throw Rate. (Free throws per field goal attempt.) Tim's was MUCH higher than Hakeem's. That's because other teams figured out that there was absolutely no way to guard Tim without aggressive double teams, and heavy physicality. Hell, in the 06-07 season, Tim's FTR was over 50% - and in 03-04 it was 49.8%. By Duncan's 13th season, his FTR finally began to decline to what Hakeem's was for most of his career.

"Skilled" is such a stupid statement, because it can mean anything you want it to mean. But one of the best measures, IMO, is what the player forces opposing defenses to do. Tim drew more hard double teams than Hakeem, because that's what it took to guard him. And when he accounted for two defenders, his teammates were much more free to score. That's one of the biggest reasons people always recognized that Tim made his teammates better - even if most people didn't know exactly how he did that.

Pop started limiting Tim's minutes, which prolonged his career, but lowered his raw stats. But I also think Tim became less effective when he gave up on that money bank-shot he used to torture the league for so many years. I never could understand why he just eliminated it from his game. I always just figured that he lost confidence in it somehow.

It's impossible to compare two different-style players whose time in the league barely overlapped. Getting butt-hurt over something fucking Lefty says... :lol

[TDfan2007]

People getting worked up at an obvious troll job. :lol


They were different players, with different strengths. The one thing that you can't (shouldn't) overlook is their Free Throw Rate. (Free throws per field goal attempt.) Tim's was MUCH higher than Hakeem's. That's because other teams figured out that there was absolutely no way to guard Tim without aggressive double teams, and heavy physicality. Hell, in the 06-07 season, Tim's FTR was over 50% - and in 03-04 it was 49.8%. By Duncan's 13th season, his FTR finally began to decline to what Hakeem's was for most of his career.

"Skilled" is such a stupid statement, because it can mean anything you want it to mean. But one of the best measures, IMO, is what the player forces opposing defenses to do. Tim drew more hard double teams than Hakeem, because that's what it took to guard him. And when he accounted for two defenders, his teammates were much more free to score. That's one of the biggest reasons people always recognized that Tim made his teammates better - even if most people didn't know exactly how he did that.

Pop started limiting Tim's minutes, which prolonged his career, but lowered his raw stats. But I also think Tim became less effective when he gave up on that money bank-shot he used to torture the league for so many years. I never could understand why he just eliminated it from his game. I always just figured that he lost confidence in it somehow.

It's impossible to compare two different-style players whose time in the league barely overlapped. Getting butt-hurt over something fucking Lefty says... :lol

That point about opposing defenses is a really good one. I also think that part of the reason for the FT rate difference is that Tim attacked the basket more than Hakeem, especially early in his career. Imo even though Hakeem was bigger, his game was even more based on finesse than Tim's.

[lefty]

Uh huh..


34/25 in 2002..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2MwyaXYFjs

37/14 in 1999


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt-6dG_dKjM
Still fat

[lefty]

People getting worked up at an obvious troll job. :lol


They were different players, with different strengths. The one thing that you can't (shouldn't) overlook is their Free Throw Rate. (Free throws per field goal attempt.) Tim's was MUCH higher than Hakeem's. That's because other teams figured out that there was absolutely no way to guard Tim without aggressive double teams, and heavy physicality. Hell, in the 06-07 season, Tim's FTR was over 50% - and in 03-04 it was 49.8%. By Duncan's 13th season, his FTR finally began to decline to what Hakeem's was for most of his career.

"Skilled" is such a stupid statement, because it can mean anything you want it to mean. But one of the best measures, IMO, is what the player forces opposing defenses to do. Tim drew more hard double teams than Hakeem, because that's what it took to guard him. And when he accounted for two defenders, his teammates were much more free to score. That's one of the biggest reasons people always recognized that Tim made his teammates better - even if most people didn't know exactly how he did that.

Pop started limiting Tim's minutes, which prolonged his career, but lowered his raw stats. But I also think Tim became less effective when he gave up on that money bank-shot he used to torture the league for so many years. I never could understand why he just eliminated it from his game. I always just figured that he lost confidence in it somehow.

It's impossible to compare two different-style players whose time in the league barely overlapped. Getting butt-hurt over something fucking Lefty says... :lol
:lol not trolling, just dropping the obvious truth tbh

[Brazil]

Still a Spurs fan tbh and before the Duncan days, Parkerfan

I’m not biased like some

:lol not biased, you are probably the biggest biased dude of this site

:lol still a Spurs fan.. there is absolutely nothing in your writing lately that is showing you are a Spur fan bro... and don't come with your BS I'm not biased you are agenda loaded. In an argument Duncan / Hakeem you give Duncan the edge on nothing :lol

[Brazil]

lol replying to gifs of Hakeem going off vs the top centers of the NBA in the postseason with DUncan going off against scrubs in the regular season :lol


Hakeem was definitely more skilled at grooming young girls to satisfy his pedophilia.

:lmao

[dbreiden83080]

Still fat

Ah well lets keep going..

33/15 2001 on KG.. 9 time 1st team all Defense KG.. DPOY in 2008..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYUVrHxRww8

[Brazil]

lol replying to gifs of Hakeem going off vs the top centers of the NBA in the postseason with DUncan going off against scrubs in the regular season :lol


Ah well lets keep going..

33/15 2001 on KG.. 9 time 1st team all Defense KG.. DPOY in 2008..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYUVrHxRww8

don't bother bro.. he is gonna explain that KG is a bad defender tbh.. and that he was fat that day because he had too many burgers before the game

[dbreiden83080]

don't bother bro.. he is gonna explain that KG is a bad defender tbh.. and that he was fat that day because he had too many burgers before the game

Or he was on his period..

[Brazil]

:lol a so called spur fan biased in favor of a fucking rocket player.. dear god

in no time dude is gonna argue malone>duncan and sloan>pop

[dbreiden83080]

:lol a so called spur fan biased in favor of a fucking rocket player.. dear god

in no time dude is gonna argue malone>duncan and sloan>pop

Malone you forget the details, but re-watching the 97 and 98 finals games.. God Damn was he good at choking..

[lefty]

:lol not biased, you are probably the biggest biased dude of this site

:lol still a Spurs fan.. there is absolutely nothing in your writing lately that is showing you are a Spur fan bro... and don't come with your BS I'm not biased you are agenda loaded. In an argument Duncan / Hakeem you give Duncan the edge on nothing :lol

So because I have an opinion I’m not a Spurs fan?

Oh well, at least I’m not a sheep

[lefty]

Ah well lets keep going..

33/15 2001 on KG.. 9 time 1st team all Defense KG.. DPOY in 2008..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYUVrHxRww8
So only KG?

Please, Hakeem took on Ewing, Robinson, Shaq

[lefty]

don't bother bro.. he is gonna explain that KG is a bad defender tbh.. and that he was fat that day because he had too many burgers before the game

:cry

[dbreiden83080]

So only KG?

Please, Hakeem took on Ewing, Robinson, Shaq

I gave you Shaq too... You falling asleep Sweet Heart?

[lefty]

I gave you Shaq too... You falling asleep Sweet Heart?
You gave me fat Shaq

95 Shaq was better

[dbreiden83080]

You gave me fat Shaq

95 Shaq was better

And 95,96,97,98,99 Shaq won what??

BTW Troll Job.. His best season was 2000.

[Brazil]

So because I have an opinion I’m not a Spurs fan?

Oh well, at least I’m not a sheep

dude you are a double agent.. pretending you are a spurs fan to be considered legitimate on your spurs suck and backhanded compliments to duncan

:cry saying hakeem is better does not tarnish duncan greatness... :cry

[dbreiden83080]

dude you are a double agent.. pretending you are a spurs fan to be considered legitimate on your spurs suck and backhanded compliments to duncan

:cry saying hakeem is better does not tarnish duncan greatness... :cry

He also says "Kobe was better than Jordan" Closet Lakers Fan..

[lefty]

dude you are a double agent.. pretending you are a spurs fan to be considered legitimate on your spurs suck and backhanded compliments to duncan

:cry saying hakeem is better does not tarnish duncan greatness... :cry
Ok then

Let me prove my fandom

AVERY JOHNSON IS BETTER THAN CHRIS PAUL IF YOU DONT AGREE YOU'RE A HATER

[Brazil]

So only KG?

Please, Hakeem took on Ewing, Robinson, Shaq

also :lol Ewing... talking about overrated tbh...

[lefty]

He also says "Kobe was better than Jordan" Closet Lakers Fan..
Well Kobe wasn't guarded by pumbers and was also a more complete offensive player and a better 3 point shooter
He would have averaged 50 ppg against the likes of Craig Ehlo and John Starks tbh :lol

[lefty]

also :lol Ewing... talking about overrated tbh...
How is he overrated?

[dbreiden83080]

Well Kobe wasn't guarded by pumbers and was also a more complete offensive player and a better 3 point shooter
He would have averaged 50 ppg against the likes of Craig Ehlo and John Starks tbh :lol

Jordan and his plumbers beat Shaq down in 96 LOL..

[Brazil]

He also says "Kobe was better than Jordan" Closet Lakers Fan..

he is also saying that jordan is a magnified DeRozan :lol

[dbreiden83080]

Well Kobe wasn't guarded by pumbers and was also a more complete offensive player and a better 3 point shooter
He would have averaged 50 ppg against the likes of Craig Ehlo and John Starks tbh :lol

And what would Jordan do today with these rules? You think Harden gets special treatment..

imagine MJ

Holy Fuck LOL..

[lefty]

Jordan and his plumbers beat Shaq down in 96 LOL..
They lost Horace HOrance Grant early in the series
If the Bulls lost Rodman they would have been fucked too :lol

[lefty]

And what would Jordan do today with these rules? You think Harden gets special treatment..

imagine MJ

Holy Fuck LOL..
THat's a wash

Jordan was already getting the Harden treatment son, most protected player in the history of any sport :lol

Holy shit......

[lefty]

he is also saying that jordan is a magnified DeRozan :lol
Well yeah that bald fraud was a shitty 3 point shooter tbh :lol

[dbreiden83080]

They lost Horace HOrance Grant early in the series
If the Bulls lost Rodman they would have been fucked too :lol

Rodman High As Fuck, and always hungover beat Shaq.. And he is 6'7..

[Brazil]

How is he overrated?

if he was not a NY player you would not even mention him to prop up Hakeem tbh

[dbreiden83080]

Well yeah that bald fraud was a shitty 3 point shooter tbh :lol

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/jordanbigshrug.gif?w=640&h=359

[lefty]

Rodman High As Fuck, and always hungover beat Shaq.. And he is 6'7..
"Rodman beat Shaq"

OMG I'm reading so much stupidty today :lol

[lefty]

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/jordanbigshrug.gif?w=640&h=359
Oh look that one game where he was hot and was left wide open

The only years where he had decent % was during the shortened 3 pt line era :lol

Bald fraud benefitting from food stamps

[dbreiden83080]

"Rodman beat Shaq"

OMG I'm reading so much stupidty today :lol

So you've been reading your own stuff..

[lefty]

So you've been reading your own stuff..
:lol solid comeback as usual dbr

[dbreiden83080]

Oh look that one game where he was hot and was left wide open

The only years where he had decent % was during the shortened 3 pt line era :lol

Bald fraud benefitting from food stamps

That must have killed his game winning 10 Scoring Titles, and 6 rings. Cry himself to sleep..

[dbreiden83080]

:lol solid comeback as usual dbr

You usually just go with one of these..

:lol

[lefty]

if he was not a NY player you would not even mention him to prop up Hakeem tbh
That's your argument?

He was one of the best centers in the NBA, the fact that he was in a big market has nothing to do with it

[dbreiden83080]

That's your argument?

He was one of the best centers in the NBA, the fact that he was in a big market has nothing to do with it

So was Shaq. And when you have to watch Tim beat Shaq badly you say "He was fat who cares"..

KG was skinny AF.. Too skinny right?

[Brazil]

That's your argument?

He was one of the best centers in the NBA, the fact that he was in a big market has nothing to do with it

the fact that he was playing for a big market makes him overrated as fuck.. when you use Shaq and Robinson to prove a point adding Ewing to the mix is a non sense. The fact Hakeem dominated Pat fucking Ewing does not add anything to his greatness neither to the argument you were making about Duncan.

[superbigtime]

This is a really fair take imo. I don't think anyone other than maybe Larry Bird or Magic had TD's spatial awareness. It was uncanny.

It was spectacular and unrivaled. Tim's greatness was something to really treasure. He was damn good and I loved his consistency. Ah, Tim.

[ZeusWillJudge]

THat's a wash

Jordan was already getting the Harden treatment son, most protected player in the history of any sport :lol

Holy shit......


Yeah, Jordan's Free Throw Rate for his career was .358, and his highest for a season was .459. Harden's career FTR is .526, and one season his FTR was .596! That means that 6 out of 10 times he attempted a shot, there was a whistle.

It's easy to claim that Jordan got protected like Harden gets protected. But the numbers aren't even in the same neighborhood. Or do you think there's a way to "protect" a player without blowing whistles?

[Biggems]

Hakeem career FT% - 71.2
Duncan career FT% - 69.6

Less than 2% is a big edge?

[dbreiden83080]

THat's a wash

Jordan was already getting the Harden treatment son, most protected player in the history of any sport :lol

Holy shit......

Attempt to think about this logically for about five minutes. As difficult as that may be for you. If the BB Detroit Pistons were playing football out there with Michael Jordan, and he is still averaging 30 points per game. What the fuck do you think he’s going to do in this era? Do you think James Harden is a better offensive basketball player than Michael fucking Jordan? He was averaging nearly 40 this season. Jordan holy shit it might be 50.

Harden If a basketball team played him like the Pistons played Michael Jordan, he would literally retire. Cry to the league office for changes and when denied. Quit.. He is that soft.

[dbreiden83080]

Yeah, Jordan's Free Throw Rate for his career was .358, and his highest for a season was .459. Harden's career FTR is .526, and one season his FTR was .596! That means that 6 out of 10 times he attempted a shot, there was a whistle.

It's easy to claim that Jordan got protected like Harden gets protected. But the numbers aren't even in the same neighborhood. Or do you think there's a way to "protect" a player without blowing whistles?


Michael Jordans mid range game is so off the charts, and such a lost art in the league today it would be completely 100% unstoppable. Nobody has to guard that in the NBA anymore. Everyone is just constantly shooting three point shots. Michael Jordan would be abusing defender after defender with his mid range attack.

[Maddog]

Michael Jordans mid range game is so off the charts, and such a lost art in the league today it would be completely 100% unstoppable. Nobody has to guard that in the NBA anymore. Everyone is just constantly shooting three point shots. Michael Jordan would be abusing defender after defender with his mid range attack.

Maybe, maybe not

Defense has become much more sophisticated
See below, it's worth a read and thinking about it

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/5/18/21260106/michael-jordan-the-last-dance-evolution

[dbreiden83080]

Maybe, maybe not

Defense has become much more sophisticated
See below, it's worth a read and thinking about it

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/5/18/21260106/michael-jordan-the-last-dance-evolution

James Harden scores 35 a game flopping to the floor and shooting step back 3's.. Jordan would be fine.

[hitmantb]

Players overvalue 1v1 capabilities. I rank 2003 Duncan below 2001 Shaq and 1995 Hakeem in pure 1v1 situations. However 2003 Tim's 5v5 capabilities are second to none, that team was NOT supposed to ring. Manu and especially Tony really flourished with Tim because Tim did all the little things that don't show up on stat sheets, like being one of the GOAT screeners, incredibly underrated TEAM defense, and give other players enough shots. Stat padding is extremely misleading, Russell Westbrook despite averaging triple double can not get out of the first round of the playoffs. LeBron despite playing stacked roster for a decade only has 3 rings and was extremely lucky to win 2 of them.

There is also a leadership aura around Tim that boosts locker room stability and team morale. Hakeem was without a doubt a negative in both. 2 MVP + 3 FMVP > 1 MVP + 2 FMVP. And as much as I hate to say it, I wish Tim was more selfish in 2007 to get at least one more FMVP. He would be top 5 all time soon. Hopefully once stat padders like LeBron retire, people can look at Tim's intangibles and realize how special it is to win 5 rings in a small market that never ringed before, and most likely will not ring again in our life time.

[Thomas82]

Players overvalue 1v1 capabilities. I rank 2003 Duncan below 2001 Shaq and 1995 Hakeem in pure 1v1 situations. However 2003 Tim's 5v5 capabilities are second to none, that team was NOT supposed to ring. Manu and especially Tony really flourished with Tim because Tim did all the little things that don't show up on stat sheets, like being one of the GOAT screeners, incredibly underrated TEAM defense, and give other players enough shots. Stat padding is extremely misleading, Russell Westbrook despite averaging triple double can not get out of the first round of the playoffs. LeBron despite playing stacked roster for a decade only has 3 rings and was extremely lucky to win 2 of them.

There is also a leadership aura around Tim that boosts locker room stability and team morale. Hakeem was without a doubt a negative in both. 2 MVP + 3 FMVP > 1 MVP + 2 FMVP. And as much as I hate to say it, I wish Tim was more selfish in 2007 to get at least one more FMVP. He would be top 5 all time soon. Hopefully once stat padders like LeBron retire, people can look at Tim's intangibles and realize how special it is to win 5 rings in a small market that never ringed before, and most likely will not ring again in our life time.

Good post.......well said!!

[Brazil]

Players overvalue 1v1 capabilities. I rank 2003 Duncan below 2001 Shaq and 1995 Hakeem in pure 1v1 situations. However 2003 Tim's 5v5 capabilities are second to none, that team was NOT supposed to ring. Manu and especially Tony really flourished with Tim because Tim did all the little things that don't show up on stat sheets, like being one of the GOAT screeners, incredibly underrated TEAM defense, and give other players enough shots. Stat padding is extremely misleading, Russell Westbrook despite averaging triple double can not get out of the first round of the playoffs. LeBron despite playing stacked roster for a decade only has 3 rings and was extremely lucky to win 2 of them.

There is also a leadership aura around Tim that boosts locker room stability and team morale. Hakeem was without a doubt a negative in both. 2 MVP + 3 FMVP > 1 MVP + 2 FMVP. And as much as I hate to say it, I wish Tim was more selfish in 2007 to get at least one more FMVP. He would be top 5 all time soon. Hopefully once stat padders like LeBron retire, people can look at Tim's intangibles and realize how special it is to win 5 rings in a small market that never ringed before, and most likely will not ring again in our life time.

:cry but but Hakeem more skilled,, :cry

[TDfan2007]

Players overvalue 1v1 capabilities. I rank 2003 Duncan below 2001 Shaq and 1995 Hakeem in pure 1v1 situations. However 2003 Tim's 5v5 capabilities are second to none, that team was NOT supposed to ring. Manu and especially Tony really flourished with Tim because Tim did all the little things that don't show up on stat sheets, like being one of the GOAT screeners, incredibly underrated TEAM defense, and give other players enough shots. Stat padding is extremely misleading, Russell Westbrook despite averaging triple double can not get out of the first round of the playoffs. LeBron despite playing stacked roster for a decade only has 3 rings and was extremely lucky to win 2 of them.

There is also a leadership aura around Tim that boosts locker room stability and team morale. Hakeem was without a doubt a negative in both. 2 MVP + 3 FMVP > 1 MVP + 2 FMVP. And as much as I hate to say it, I wish Tim was more selfish in 2007 to get at least one more FMVP. He would be top 5 all time soon. Hopefully once stat padders like LeBron retire, people can look at Tim's intangibles and realize how special it is to win 5 rings in a small market that never ringed before, and most likely will not ring again in our life time.

Great points. Though I'd also argue that prime Tim was one of the best 1 on 1 bigs of all time (along with Hakeem and Dirk). He'd give it to you on the block and facing up in the high post. The Spurs isolated him just about every other trip down court in those days and just played off if the attention that he drew.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Great points. Though I'd also argue that prime Tim was one of the best 1 on 1 bigs of all time (along with Hakeem and Dirk). He'd give it to you on the block and facing up in the high post. The Spurs isolated him just about every other trip down court in those days and just played off if the attention that he drew.


:pop: "Four down! Four down!"


It didn't matter if everyone in the arena knew was the play was - the other team couldn't stop it. Pop rode Tim like a Vegas hooker.

[lefty]

James Harden scores 35 a game flopping to the floor and shooting step back 3's.. Jordan would be fine.

Harden would have averaged 55 ppg in the 90s in ISO against unsophisticated defenses and Jordan superstar treatment

[dbreiden83080]

Harden would have averaged 55 ppg in the 90s in ISO against unsophisticated defenses and Jordan superstar treatment

First time he took that inside against 90's Knicks Oakley and Mason he would be on the ground crying.. Back to more step back 3's.. "Hey ref come on it's a foul"..

[ZeusWillJudge]

Harden would have averaged 55 ppg in the 90s in ISO against unsophisticated defenses and Jordan superstar treatment


You never answered my question, Lefty: How was Jordan "protected" like Harden, when they didn't blow whistles for him the way they do Harden?

But now I have a new question: Since you've already admitted that Harden gets "protected" by the refs, would he have needed that same protection to average 55 ppg in the 90's?


They're your words. I'd just like you to explain them.

[lefty]

You never answered my question, Lefty: How was Jordan "protected" like Harden, when they didn't blow whistles for him the way they do Harden?

But now I have a new question: Since you've already admitted that Harden gets "protected" by the refs, would he have needed that same protection to average 55 ppg in the 90's?


They're your words. I'd just like you to explain them.
Take your nostalgia goggles off

And go on Youub, the the games are there you can see the special treatment Jordan had

[dbreiden83080]

Take your nostalgia goggles off

And go on Youub, the the games are there you can see the special treatment Jordan had

You are trying to sell the idea that Harden a player who is about the same size as Jordan, BUT NOT as athletic, NOT as talented, NOT nearly as competitive, nowhere near as tough, would be a superior player to Jordan in this era. Harden has choked in the playoffs every time. Jordan would make him want to quit basketball.. Harden in a 7 game series with Jordan and Scottie checking him LOL.. Oh god..

[ZeusWillJudge]

Take your nostalgia goggles off

And go on Youub, the the games are there you can see the special treatment Jordan had


Okay... so you're saying that there is a conspiracy. Jordan got "protected" by whistles, just like Harden, but the stats sites are lying about it?

Well that makes sense.


But you didn't explain the other. You said that Harden gets protected by the refs, and you said that he would score 55 ppg in the 90's. But would have had to be protected by the refs to score those 55 ppg? Or would he just be that much better than 90's defenses without being protected?

[Brazil]

Okay... so you're saying that there is a conspiracy. Jordan got "protected" by whistles, just like Harden, but the stats sites are lying about it?

Well that makes sense.




:lmao...

[lefty]

Okay... so you're saying that there is a conspiracy. Jordan got "protected" by whistles, just like Harden, but the stats sites are lying about it?

Well that makes sense.


But you didn't explain the other. You said that Harden gets protected by the refs, and you said that he would score 55 ppg in the 90's. But would have had to be protected by the refs to score those 55 ppg? Or would he just be that much better than 90's defenses without being protected?
Conspiracy? well it was pretty obvious

[lefty]

I know you guys are stuck in the past, it's must be hatd for you to accept the NBA has gotten better and that Jordan is not the GOAT, but stop posting dumb arguments and narratives :lol
Jordan Stans SMH are fucking dumb smh :lol

[Brazil]

I know you guys are stuck in the past, it's must be hatd for you to accept the NBA has gotten better and that Jordan is not the GOAT, but stop posting dumb arguments and narratives :lol
Jordan Stans SMH are fucking dumb smh :lol

:lol nice deflection bro... lot of blabla with nothing to back it up

Your claim is that Jordan back in the 90s was more protected than Harden.. how do you back that claim ? :lol conspiracy... are you implying NBA did not count properly the number of FTs taken by Jordan :lol

:lol watch the tapes

[Brazil]

Harden is a diva spoon fed by whistles... dude would not finish even one season in the 90s

[ZeusWillJudge]

Conspiracy? well it was pretty obvious


Okay, it was obvious. All I want to know is how they keep all those bogus fouls from showing up in Jordan's stats? Because they all show that Harden gets a LOT more whistles than Jordan did. Does the league control ALL of the stats sites?

Just tell me how you think they pull it off.

[lefty]

Okay, it was obvious. All I want to know is how they keep all those bogus fouls from showing up in Jordan's stats? Because they all show that Harden gets a LOT more whistles than Jordan did. Does the league control ALL of the stats sites?

Just tell me how you think they pull it off.
Jordan had as msny FT attempts as the too big men so that’s already a red flag

But once again context is lost on you, Jordan got bailed out A LOT in the playoffs, and it’s also a matter of timing

But muh stats :lol

[Brazil]

Jordan had as msny FT attempts as the too big men so that’s already a red flag

But once again context is lost on you, Jordan got bailed out A LOT in the playoffs, and it’s also a matter of timing

But muh stats :lol

:lol oh ok so you have nothing

deflection is reaching its peak now... from harden would average 55 pts in the 90s with same protection than Jordan to it's a matter of timing, I was just talking about POs.. so I guess your 55 pts we forget ? :lol

[ZeusWillJudge]

Jordan had as msny FT attempts as the too big men so that’s already a red flag

But once again context is lost on you, Jordan got bailed out A LOT in the playoffs, and it’s also a matter of timing

But muh stats :lol


Here's who was getting the benefit of whistles during Jordan's prime years. His highest FTR season was #72 on the list. http://bkref.com/tiny/2Tdfo

Want to filter it just for guards? Okay... his highest FTR season moves all the way up to #23 on the list. http://bkref.com/tiny/ZdWX1

Run the same query for Harden's prime years, and he's all over the top of the list, with MUCH higher numbers. http://bkref.com/tiny/8dZ3U



But I believe you. The way you say "muh stats" is very convincing. But you still have to tell me how the NBA hid all of Jordan's bogus FTA's from all of the stat sites. Don't be embarrassed. Just tell me your theory on how they changed all those game logs. This has to be the biggest sports conspiracy of all time, and you've got the goods.

[Thomas82]

So now I have some fool on social media using the fact that TD had his shot blocked more than any other player in NBA history as a way to discredit him and prop Hakeem up. I thought I had seen it all until then.

[Russo21]

Who gives a shit what these old fools think. TD no.1 big man of all time. C or PF who cares. Timmy the GOAT

[lefty]

Here's who was getting the benefit of whistles during Jordan's prime years. His highest FTR season was #72 on the list. http://bkref.com/tiny/2Tdfo

Want to filter it just for guards? Okay... his highest FTR season moves all the way up to #23 on the list. http://bkref.com/tiny/ZdWX1

Run the same query for Harden's prime years, and he's all over the top of the list, with MUCH higher numbers. http://bkref.com/tiny/8dZ3U



But I believe you. The way you say "muh stats" is very convincing. But you still have to tell me how the NBA hid all of Jordan's bogus FTA's from all of the stat sites. Don't be embarrassed. Just tell me your theory on how they changed all those game logs. This has to be the biggest sports conspiracy of all time, and you've got the goods.

Zero context

Good job :lol

[KobesAchilles]

So now I have some fool on social media using the fact that TD had his shot blocked more than any other player in NBA history as a way to discredit him and prop Hakeem up. I thought I had seen it all until then.
Is there even a way to keep track of that? Seems like the most bogus statement of all time.

[KobesAchilles]

Zero context

Good job :lol
Bruh Harden is a pussy. You should’ve gone with Durant instead of Harden. He’s a joke. Nobody here in Houston actually believes the beard can lead the Rockets to a title. Everybody in Chicago believed Jordan could lead them to the promise land bc he actually did it. Who gives a fuck how many points Harden would average. His team wouldn’t be in any way shape or form a contender back in the 90s.

[SpursDynasty85]

No diss to say Hakeem was more skilled but I would say Duncan was bigger and smarter. Both all-time greats.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Zero context

Good job :lol


LOL. So they protected Jordan, without blowing whistles. How did they do that? Just give me some context for your claim, and I'll believe you. :lol

[ZeusWillJudge]

So now I have some fool on social media using the fact that TD had his shot blocked more than any other player in NBA history as a way to discredit him and prop Hakeem up. I thought I had seen it all until then.


By what measure? Without even looking, I can tell you that Zaza and DeMarcus Cousins are/were both more block prone than Tim. I'm sure there are others I can't think of.

You can't just look at total blocked shots. I bet Tim put up 4x as many shots as Zaza, if not more. He didn't get 4x as many shots blocked, or even close.

I know for years, Boogie was getting blocked more than any player in the league. It was over 1.5 times per game, last time I looked. I think Tim averaged around 1 blocked per game.

Don't let people like Lefty confuse the facts. Tim took a shitload of shots, most of them while he was guarded by other giants. He played a lot of minutes and a lot of seasons, which is going to add to the total number. He got slightly more because he didn't jump high, but not so far out of the norm that it would make him the most block-prone player in history.

[Thomas82]

Is there even a way to keep track of that? Seems like the most bogus statement of all time.

I looked it up myself and saw it in a couple of places. This was the most legit link I could find:

https://fadeawayworld.net/2020/05/13/the-10-most-blocked-players-in-nba-history/

[Thomas82]

By what measure? Without even looking, I can tell you that Zaza and DeMarcus Cousins are/were both more block prone than Tim. I'm sure there are others I can't think of.

You can't just look at total blocked shots. I bet Tim put up 4x as many shots as Zaza, if not more. He didn't get 4x as many shots blocked, or even close.

I know for years, Boogie was getting blocked more than any player in the league. It was over 1.5 times per game, last time I looked. I think Tim averaged around 1 blocked per game.

Don't let people like Lefty confuse the facts. Tim took a shitload of shots, most of them while he was guarded by other giants. He played a lot of minutes and a lot of seasons, which is going to add to the total number. He got slightly more because he didn't jump high, but not so far out of the norm that it would make him the most block-prone player in history.

Yeah, I'm aware of ZaZa and DC being block prone and these other facts you just gave us. I actually mentioned Cousins in my rebuttal. I also told this clown that TD also never got beat in MVP voting by a role player teammate. I told him to go look up the 1991 MVP voting. I know Hakeem missed time that year with the broken eye socket, but I still can't see how he finished behind Kenny Smith.

[John B]

Sure. If MJ didn't take a baseball break, would Elie be saying the same? I don't discount Hakeem and his moves. He's great. But Timmy is a 5-time champion, no but's.

[lefty]

Sure. If MJ didn't take a baseball break, would Elie be saying the same? I don't discount Hakeem and his moves. He's great. But Timmy is a 5-time champion, no but's.
lol the Bulls would have had their asses handed to them

[KobesAchilles]

lol the Bulls would have had their asses handed to them
In 95 yes. But not in 94. That Rockets team wasn’t that good and had no real business other than Hakeem I’m winning the Chip. Prime Scotty, Kukoc, Grant, and Jordan would’ve beat the begeezus off of that 94 team

[lefty]

In 95 yes. But not in 94. That Rockets team wasn’t that good and had no real business other than Hakeem I’m winning the Chip. Prime Scotty, Kukoc, Grant, and Jordan would’ve beat the begeezus off of that 94 team
In 94 too

The 90s Rockets regularly beat the Bulls, they were just a matchup nightmare for Chicago

Even Jordan admitted back then he was happy Houston ddn't come out of the West

[KobesAchilles]

In 94 too

The 90s Rockets regularly beat the Bulls, they were just a matchup nightmare for Chicago

Even Jordan admitted back then he was happy Houston ddn't come out of the West
Hakeem was the only match up nightmare and the Bulls were too good that year to beaten by one player like the Knicks were. Bulls have the better PG, SG, SF, and PF is about even. Also they have the better bench. No way that team beats them. Thorpe was their second best player man :lol