Is Kobe GOAT #2 Player Ever?

[Spurtacular]

Watching 'Last Dance'. One dude calls Pippen the GOAT #2 player in Episode One.
I know he was there for six rings. But Kobe was #2 for five rings.
This should be examined.

[lefty]

Pippen is disrespectful of Stern

[phxspurfan]

By this logic Robert Horry is the GOAT coat tailer with his 10 or whatever

[Spurtacular]

By this logic Robert Horry is the GOAT coat tailer with his 10 or whatever

Sure. Possibly.

[Killakobe81]

Lol but those acting like he doesnt have a case somewhere between 6 and 12 or so . are crazy or hating. I cant put him top 5 but top 10? No question.

[phxspurfan]

Put Shawn Marion on the Bulls and they win the same rings

[Spurtacular]

Lol but those acting like he doesnt have a case somewhere between 6 and 12 or so . are crazy or hating. I cant put him top 5 but top 10? No question.

Kobe and Jordan were sub .500 when trying to beast mode it. Both are over-rated.
You take Stern's rigging and cheating out of it and neither are top ten.
Dad Killer maybe you could argue it. Kobe, no.

[Killakobe81]

Kobe and Jordan were sub .500 when trying to beast mode it. Both are over-rated.
You take Stern's rigging and cheating out of it and neither are top ten.
Dad Killer maybe you could argue it. Kobe, no.

Um, no.

[scanry]

By this logic Robert Horry is the GOAT coat tailer with his 10 or whatever

Horry was a role player in a few playoff series and a scrub the rest. Now that he's retired with 7 rings, he's become a bloated smug. Maybe there's a reason we haven't seen him on ESPN lately.

[scanry]

Kobe and Jordan were sub .500 when trying to beast mode it. Both are over-rated.
You take Stern's rigging and cheating out of it and neither are top ten.
Dad Killer maybe you could argue it. Kobe, no.

Trolling aside, MJ is the GOAT. Duncan, Bird, Shaq, Kobe and Wilt could go either way tbh.

[Spurtacular]

Trolling aside, MJ is the GOAT. Duncan, Bird, Shaq, Kobe and Wilt could go either way tbh.

MJ's not in the discussion.

[FrostKing]

Greatest sidekick?

Yes. Judging based on McHale, Pippen, Dumars, Dr.J, Stockton, Penny,

[DMC]

Lol but those acting like he doesnt have a case somewhere between 6 and 12 or so . are crazy or hating. I cant put him top 5 but top 10? No question.

12

[FrostKing]

Kobe vs Lebron


My most two hated player

[FrostKing]

I rather play with Lebron but I fear Kobe taking the last shot

[Dirks_Finale]

The ironic part is that Kobe was actually very much NOT clutch when you look at his overall stats in the final minutes of close games. Especially in comparison to the greats like MJ.

GM's polled during Kobe's era all felt the same . Kobe was feared when taking the last shot, mainly because he was so unafraid. I'll say this, I feel the same if we are talking Kobe or Lebron in the final minute. Lebron will dish it off to Kyle Korver or some other role player for the final shot -- -the right basketball play sometimes, but not the smartest and not what true killers do.


I rather play with Lebron but I fear Kobe taking the last shot

[lefty]

The ironic part is that Kobe was actually very much NOT clutch when you look at his overall stats in the final minutes of close games. Especially in comparison to the greats like MJ.

GM's polled during Kobe's era all felt the same . Kobe was feared when taking the last shot, mainly because he was so unafraid. I'll say this, I feel the same if we are talking Kobe or Lebron in the final minute. Lebron will dish it off to Kyle Korver or some other role player for the final shot -- -the right basketball play sometimes, but not the smartest and not what true killers do.

MJ was such a true killer he got bailed out by Armstrong, Kerr, Paxton and even Pippen made some big shots in the playoffs but people don’t mention it

[TDfan2007]

MJ was such a true killer he got bailed out by Armstrong, Kerr, Paxton and even Pippen made some big shots in the playoffs but people don’t mention it

Kerr and Paxton didn't bail out shit. Jordan made the right play and gave them WIDE open shots. That's what made MJ special. He trusted his teammates AND had the killer instinct.

[lefty]

Kerr and Paxton didn't bail out shit. Jordan made the right play and gave them WIDE open shots. That's what made MJ special. He trusted his teammates AND had the killer instinct.
:lmao that bullshit narrative again, double standards SMH

[FrostKing]

The ironic part is that Kobe was actually very much NOT clutch when you look at his overall stats in the final minutes of close games. Especially in comparison to the greats like MJ.

GM's polled during Kobe's era all felt the same . Kobe was feared when taking the last shot, mainly because he was so unafraid. I'll say this, I feel the same if we are talking Kobe or Lebron in the final minute. Lebron will dish it off to Kyle Korver or some other role player for the final shot -- -the right basketball play sometimes, but not the smartest and not what true killers do.
Kobe was by far my most hated player. Hated because he walked the walk. He was overrated in his time but looking back 5 titles. He stayed in LA and helped create a double winner. Defense overrated but offensively he did his homework and aced it. He controlled the court. Alpha.

[FrostKing]

Stockton was an engine, not a sidekick.

I wish that he and Nash had learned the value of being hardcore scorers more often though.
They could've been more Curry like in that respect.
Stockton better defense than those 2

They go over the pick

[Spurtacular]

Greatest sidekick?

Yes. Judging based on McHale, Pippen, Dumars, Dr.J, Stockton, Penny,

Stockton was an engine, not a sidekick.

I wish that he and Nash had learned the value of being hardcore scorers more often though.
They could've been more Curry like in that respect.

You could call Old DJ a sidekick, but I wouldn't. It's like calling old Bird a sidekick to Reggie Lewis.
Just doesn't make sense.

McHale was more functionary than a sidekick. And at 86 peak, it could even be argued he was more 1B.

Dumars, Isiah, Vinnie were more like a trio at peak level.

Pippen deferred to Jordan in 4th Q scoring, but that's all. Jordan needed him more than he needed Jordan, tbh.

Penny; sure call him a sidekick. I don't care. :lol

[Spurtacular]

Stockton better defense than those 2

They go over the pick

All-time steals leader and all-time assists leader.
Probably the most under-rated player ever.
It's a shame Karl Malone choked away his rings / Stern stealing them.

[FrostKing]

All-time steals leader and all-time assists leader.
Probably the most under-rated player ever.
It's a shame Karl Malone choked away his rings / Stern stealing them.
Watching the Bulls series. Jazz really needed their guards to dominate. I think in todays NBA they would launch alot more 3s

[ambchang]

I rather play with Lebron but I fear Kobe taking the last shot

You should fear Kobe taking any shot if you are playing with him.

[Neo.]

:lmao that bullshit narrative again, double standards SMH

:lmao :lmao

mj sees the double ready to come and dishes it to a wide open shooter = the right play!

kobe sees the double ready to come and decides to take a horrible shot and misses horribly = killer instinct!

lebron sees the double ready to come and dishes it to a wide open shooter = SOFT. NO KILLER INSTINCT. PASSIVE. NO SKILLS.

most illogical.

[Chucho]

Here's the thing with Kobe. He's not the GOAT. He's not an Alpha.

He is the GREATEST beta of all time. The absolute BEST second fiddle ever.

If Iverson, Carter or McGrady were in the same role, with the same teams, with Phil, they'd have that same spot.

He is perfectly rated at 12. He was given a 2-slot bump out of death bias.

There is nothing shameful or wrong being the GREATEST Beta ever.

I won't deny he's a top 15 player, what I will deny is the false narrative he was a stone-cold killer who was the rock of every title team he was on and that's just not true. He's the NBA brick leader who killed the franchise for an entire decade because he was unlikeable. He never won anything as THE guy. He choked a 3-1 lead. But that's ok, that is who he is and why he isn't an Alpha.

[Will Hunting]

Here's the thing with Kobe. He's not the GOAT. He's not an Alpha.

He is the GREATEST beta of all time. The absolute BEST second fiddle ever.

If Iverson, Carter or McGrady were in the same role, with the same teams, with Phil, they'd have that same spot.

He is perfectly rated at 12. He was given a 2-slot bump out of death bias.

There is nothing shameful or wrong being the GREATEST Beta ever.

I won't deny he's a top 15 player, what I will deny is the false narrative he was a stone-cold killer who was the rock of every title team he was on and that's just not true. He's the NBA brick leader who killed the franchise for an entire decade because he was unlikeable. He never won anything as THE guy. He choked a 3-1 lead. But that's ok, that is who he is and why he isn't an Alpha.
Not sure about Iverson just because of his height, but no question re: Tmac. A duo of McGrady and prime Shaq would have raped the NBA the way like it was a hotel cleaning lady in Eagle Colorado.

[Dirks_Finale]

2009 and 2010 refute that idea.

Memphis was not winning shit with Pau leading their team. The Lakers back to back was Kobe as the leader. That team had Kobe DNA as a part of it. Bums like Vujacic grew hair on their chests & somehow resembled NBA players with him as the guy.

You are right about him killing the franchise for a decade and being unlikable.


Here's the thing with Kobe. He's not the GOAT. He's not an Alpha.

He is the GREATEST beta of all time. The absolute BEST second fiddle ever.

If Iverson, Carter or McGrady were in the same role, with the same teams, with Phil, they'd have that same spot.

He is perfectly rated at 12. He was given a 2-slot bump out of death bias.

There is nothing shameful or wrong being the GREATEST Beta ever.

I won't deny he's a top 15 player, what I will deny is the false narrative he was a stone-cold killer who was the rock of every title team he was on and that's just not true. He's the NBA brick leader who killed the franchise for an entire decade because he was unlikeable. He never won anything as THE guy. He choked a 3-1 lead. But that's ok, that is who he is and why he isn't an Alpha.

[MultiTroll]

2009 and 2010 refute that idea.

Memphis was not winning shit with Pau leading their team. The Lakers back to back was Kobe as the leader. That team had Kobe DNA as a part of it. Bums like Vujacic grew hair on their chests & somehow resembled NBA players with him as the guy.

You are right about him killing the franchise for a decade and being unlikable.
Kirbys record when having neither a Shaq, Pau along with stacked role players and LakerRef?
Ya, no playoff. Oh wait, one with a quit. No playoff series wins. None.

[MultiTroll]

#2 Marketable sales and i don't have a problem with those who want to call him #1 overall.
https://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/002/545/276/ScreenShot2013-10-10at2.48.34PM_crop_exact.jpg?w=1200&h=1200&q=75

[MultiTroll]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fb/c2/f8/fbc2f86e3760c7657b5252318988fb27.jpg

[Dirks_Finale]

And Shaq needed Kobe, then Wade.

And Duncan needed Drob, then TP and Manu.

And Jordan needed Pippen and Rodman or Grant.


Kirbys record when having neither a Shaq, Pau along with stacked role players and LakerRef?
Ya, no playoff. Oh wait, one with a quit. No playoff series wins. None.

[MultiTroll]

And Shaq needed Kobe, then Wade.

And Duncan needed Drob, then TP and Manu.

And Jordan needed Pippen and Rodman or Grant.
I was responding to this:


Memphis was not winning shit with Pau leading their team.
and the notion that Kirby led the Lakers in 2009 and 2010.

He is the all time leader in Food Stamps recipient.
Timmy Dunks won 50+ games and never missed the playoffs his entire career. All with the least amount of food stamps All Time.
Kirby is not even in the same sentence.

[Dirks_Finale]

I think Duncan is the better overall player and has had a better career. Just goes unnoticed because it happened in San Antonio.

But let's be reasonable -- -when has Tim ever had a roster this bad:


https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2006.html

Starting lineup:

C- Chris Mihm
PF- Kwame Brown
SF- Lamar Odom
SG- Kobe
PG- Smush Parker

Kwame Brown and Rec-league Smush Parker in the same lineup.

Stephen A, take over from here :lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP4RT-vv-o

I was responding to this:
and the notion that Kirby led the Lakers in 2009 and 2010.

He is the all time leader in Food Stamps recipient.
Timmy Dunks won 50+ games and never missed the playoffs his entire career. All with the least amount of food stamps All Time.
Kirby is not even in the same sentence.

[DAF86]

Lol but those acting like he doesnt have a case somewhere between 6 and 12 or so . are crazy or hating. I cant put him top 5 but top 10? No question.

He's between 12 and 15 and dropping, tbh. Guys like Durant, Kawhi, Curry and maybe even Harden will end up above him.

[ambchang]

Magic’s in the convo as well.

[Spurtacular]

Magic’s in the convo as well.

Yea, he's the best #2, tbh.
Like Kobe he was too given an undeserved MVP (2X) to justify the marketing hype.

[Kyle_Kuzma]

He's between 12 and 15 and dropping, tbh. Guys like Durant, Kawhi, Curry and maybe even Harden will end up above him.
you dumb piece of shit. nobody cares about spursfan opinions.

[Spurtacular]

you dumb piece of shit. nobody cares about spursfan opinions.

Dude, don't log onto your alts just to go full retard.

[Spurtacular]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PP4RT-vv-o

:lol Disney Sports always teamed a lily white guy with Stephen A to contrast him as so impactful.

[lefty]

Yea, he's the best #2, tbh.
Like Kobe he was too given an undeserved MVP (2X) to justify the marketing hype.
the one he stole from Barkley?
yep

[Spurtacular]

the one he stole from Barkley?
yep

The second one stolen from Barkley.
The first one was stolen from Bird.
Bird had to donate one to Jordan and one Earvin.
NBA pioneered affirmative action. :lmao

[Millennial_Messiah]

Kobe is IMO the 3rd best player ever after Jordan and Duncan. 2nd best non-big to ever play. Yes guys like Bird, Magic and Erving were also great but they played on stacked teams. Those 1980s Celtics and Lakers were a machine, stacked from top to bottom. Kobe willed shoddy teams to the playoffs and an aging, oft injured #2 piece in Gasoft to two championships. Yes Kobe hogged the ball and always wanted the big shot for himself, but he was pretty damn elite at it, so well deserved IMO.

I think (and hope) Leonard has a solid chance to break into the top-5 conversation at some point.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Bird had to donate one to Jordan and one Earvin.
NBA pioneered affirmative action. :lmao

Irvin Magic Johnson
Julius Irving
Kyrie "Flat Earth" Earvin
David "Dallas Druggy" Ervin
Michael "The Playmaker" Erving

Did I get them all right?

[Dirks_Finale]

He said... bonafide scrub :lol


:lol Disney Sports always teamed a lily white guy with Stephen A to contrast him as so impactful.

[i'm_still_beta]

Kobe had stacked teams too. He had peak Shaq (it can't be stacked any more than that) and very strong late 00's Lakers team. He had weak team in the middle of the decade but he has only himself to blame for that because he ran Shaq out of town.

[lefty]

The second one stolen from Barkley.
The first one was stolen from Bird.
Bird had to donate one to Jordan and one Earvin.
NBA pioneered affirmative action. :lmao

:lol and Kareem should have won FMVP in 1980 tbh

[Millennial_Messiah]

Kobe had stacked teams too. He had peak Shaq (it can't be stacked any more than that) and very strong late 00's Lakers team. He had weak team in the middle of the decade but he has only himself to blame for that because he ran Shaq out of town.

I don't really agree. Peak Shaq was fantastic but had one fatal flaw and Kobe was the only real alternative to that. Kobe, not Shaq, kept the Lakers alive for their big playoff push with a month of consecutive 40-plus-point games when Shaq was out injured in 2003. The rest of the guys on the Early 00s teams were all old specialist types who couldn't generate any offense for themselves.

The Late 00s title teams were tall but not all that talented. It was still Kobe and a bunch of second tier players, but at least they weren't third rate starters like Kwame, Mihm, Smush, Devean George etc.

Kobe was fantastic and the league absolutely revolved around him from 2006 to 2011.

[Kyle_Kuzma]

Kobe is IMO the 3rd best player ever after Jordan and Duncan. 2nd best non-big to ever play. Yes guys like Bird, Magic and Erving were also great but they played on stacked teams. Those 1980s Celtics and Lakers were a machine, stacked from top to bottom. Kobe willed shoddy teams to the playoffs and an aging, oft injured #2 piece in Gasoft to two championships. Yes Kobe hogged the ball and always wanted the big shot for himself, but he was pretty damn elite at it, so well deserved IMO.

I think (and hope) Leonard has a solid chance to break into the top-5 conversation at some point.


a spurfan with a brain.

kudos

[DAF86]

you dumb piece of shit. nobody cares about spursfan opinions.

Says the guy that searched for a Spurs forum to take part in.

[Spurtacular]

:lol and Kareem should have won FMVP in 1980 tbh

And Bird should've won FMVP in 81.
Media punished him for not being nice enough to them.

[Spurtacular]

Yea, he's the best #2, tbh.

Forgot about McHale. He's ahead of Earvin when it comes to 2's.

[lefty]

And Bird should've won FMVP in 81.
Media punished him for not being nice enough to them.

yeah that infamous interview

[i'm_still_beta]

And Bird should've won FMVP in 81.
Media punished him for not being nice enough to them.

True

[Spurtacular]

True

Someone in the Boston media admitted that, point blank. I can't remember exactly where I saw it though.

[Spurtacular]

yeah that infamous interview

Which one?

[i'm_still_beta]

Someone in the Boston media admitted that, point blank. I can't remember exactly where I saw it though.

Bird was MVP-candidate from day one, Magic not so much. They were rivals, but Bird was better. That's why they robbed Bird and gave foodstamp FMVP to Magic.

While Bird was unquestionably robbed, Magic's FMVP was at least somewhat justifiable

[lefty]

Which one?

it was on YouTube but was removed
One of his first interviews as a pro
Can’t find it elsewhere

By the way Bird was robbed from a couple more awards :

https://www.celticsblog.com/2015/11/27/9806146/how-larry-bird-was-gypped-out-of-the-1981-nba-playoff-and-1981-82

[DMC]

Michael, Kareem, Bird, Magic, TD, Shaq... they have a lot to say about it.

[DAF86]

And to answer the OP question: no, Kobe isn't the GOAT #2. Durant or Curry (depending on who you think was the #2 guy) is.

[Spurtacular]

it was on YouTube but was removed
One of his first interviews as a pro
Can’t find it elsewhere

By the way Bird was robbed from a couple more awards :

https://www.celticsblog.com/2015/11/27/9806146/how-larry-bird-was-gypped-out-of-the-1981-nba-playoff-and-1981-82


Damn. By my count Bird should've won six straight MVPs starting in 81-82, then.

[Spurtacular]

Damn. By my count Bird should've won six straight MVPs starting in 81-82, then.
lefty

Yea, through 84 MVP included playoffs too.

Bird gets the edge in the reg season. But beating Julius to get the 1 seed on the last game and then coming back from 1-3 in the ECF should've dispelled any doubts.

[lefty]

lefty

Yea, through 84 MVP included playoffs too.

Bird gets the edge in the reg season. But beating Julius to get the 1 seed on the last game and then coming back from 1-3 in the ECF should've dispelled any doubts.
Bird really took over in games 6 and 7 of that Sixers series, he was amazing

Rebounds, hustle plays, and super clutch shots
:

[Spurtacular]

Bird really took over in games 6 and 7 of that Sixers series, he was amazing

Rebounds, hustle plays, and super clutch shots
:

I've seen those games many times. Dr. J was a one-dimensional player in comparison to Bird.

[lefty]

I've seen those games many times. Dr. J was a one-dimensional player in comparison to Bird.

yep he was spectacular but limited

:lol that regular season game where Bird had 42 points in the 3rd quarter and he said something to Dr J and all hell broke lose

[Spurtacular]

yep he was spectacular but limited

:lol that regular season game where Bird had 42 points in the 3rd quarter and he said something to Dr J and all hell broke lose

:lol That was when Dr. J was at the end, 85 give or take a year. But yea, 42-6 :lol

Sucks because it was only halfway through the third and Bird was on his way to 70. He was kicked out of the game because Julius threw a tantrum.

[Spurtacular]

Kobe average 15.6 on 37 FG in 2000 Finals. He was 7-28 in Gm 7 of 2010 Finals.
We may be over-rating him.

[lefty]

Kobe average 15.6 on 37 FG in 2000 Finals. He was 7-28 in Gm 7 of 2010 Finals.
We may be over-rating him.
He is overrated but I think his 2000 Finals average was affected by game 2, he got injured early in that game and didn't return

[i'm_still_beta]

I've seen those games many times. Dr. J was a one-dimensional player in comparison to Bird.

Dr J had impressive stats in ABA. He made a lot of steals and blocks (2.3 steals and 2.4 blocks in 1974). But when you watch him his game really looks somewhat limited

[Spurtacular]

Dr J had impressive stats in ABA. He made a lot of steals and blocks (2.3 steals and 2.4 blocks in 1974). But when you watch him his game really looks somewhat limited

He was a great driver and finisher at the rim. He's known for having struggles with his jump shot. He didn't excel in other facets of the game either.