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View Full Version : The Holting Pattern: Success or Failure?



MannyIsGod
07-14-2003, 02:26 PM
I'll let you decide.

http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/spurs_champ_header3.jpg

ducks
07-14-2003, 02:28 PM
how can you say yes when they are good fa's out there yet?:cooldevil

scott
07-14-2003, 02:29 PM
Exactly Manny.

The Holting Pattern resulted in the roster that won us our second championship and sent David Robinson off in style.

It was a success, period. Now we have the opportunity to make moves and get even better. What's the problem?

MannyIsGod
07-14-2003, 02:30 PM
The problem?

According to ghost that we don't have ron artest and payton on the team, thats the problem.

ducks
07-14-2003, 02:32 PM
is was a success because they wanted to have cap room to sign someone to take davids place. either by trade or a fa.

MickeyOnFox
07-14-2003, 02:36 PM
:spam

I could never figure Holt out.
He seems concerned at times
and yet he Gave POP that huge contract.

I think Holt Is in to deep with David.
David stayed he owed him a favor
made POP coach, now Tim signs contract he owes
David a Favor also.
To Much back scratching going on.
Maybe it is better teams have that tight relationship
but then why Did Avery get the cooled shoulder?

Not to mention Bob Hill.
But to answer your question?
I don't know. I never go into the whole Holting patteren thing
It took me a few days just to figure out the Hoya Bama thing

Solid D
07-14-2003, 02:42 PM
Are we in a time warp, here? This looks like a thread from last year (no offense to Manny)...mouse did you cut and paste from your old post file again?

MickeyOnFox
07-14-2003, 02:47 PM
I heard SR might merge with Woai :flipoff + :cuss = :gun

baseline bum
07-14-2003, 02:57 PM
We wono, so it can't be considered anything but a success. However, this offseason isn't very likely to go down as a success.

Whottt
07-14-2003, 03:05 PM
It was a resounding success...but now we find ourselves with the very real possibility of creating a dynasty..the stakes are higher now as is the criteria for success or failure..

I don't care if we win the next 15 titles nothing is ever gonna top DROB going out like he did..

But in meantime..with the right moves within the next two years we can have a dynasty..and to do that we need to keep our young core together and either improve our perimeter players or find a dominant bigman to play alongside Tim.

So yes it was a success but we find oursleves with the possiblity of having more success that we imagined a few years ago..

I am gonna go on record as saying that you will never see an NBA Dynasty with Nesterovich or Kandi as the starting center. We must be careful and max out our opportunities.. if not this year...then next.

kohai
07-14-2003, 03:09 PM
I'll let you know when I see that it's over, i.e. Spurs sign out to the cap, and then re-sign who they want.

SouthernDan
07-14-2003, 03:16 PM
The hotling pattern is a success. Just think about it, we need a big man this offseason, we drafted a big man that could jump out of the gym in Robertas Javtokas, but as we all know, his services are no longer available. The San Antonio Spurs were setup perfectly; if not for a bad decision or two from him.

That man was the perfect fit.

picnroll
07-14-2003, 03:24 PM
1. Even without getting the primary targets if we hadn't made the effort to attract another "superstar" would TD have sign on to stay?

2. We still don't know what we're getting. If it's Rasho in hand maybe we can do a S&T of Malik for Brand or go outright for Odom.

3. The damaged suffered in waiting. Trades we could have made last year for Smith but we don't really know if any and what existed. Wasting a draft pick for cap space but that 1st round down the road may pay dividends. Not picking up Speedy's option. Parker's hurt feelings. I don't want to get into all those Payton, Artest, fantasies. Not too bad all in all so the Holting Pattern downside wasn't that great. And in the meantime we got a championship to soften the blow.

If somebody can point out any moves over the last couple of years that would have yielded us a very good/great long term replacement for DR and yielded us a ring I'll reconsider.

timvp
07-14-2003, 03:51 PM
The Championship makes it a success. Maybe if they weren't in a Holting Pattern, they would have F'd up their chemistry by getting someone like LMurray or LSprewell.

The ring makes it all worth while.












Even if they sign Rasoft Neserowimp:)

Ghost Writer
07-14-2003, 04:20 PM
So far, it's a failure.

Only a complete @ssh0le would conclude that clearing cap space for the summer of 2003 was the reason why we won it this past season.

That was not part of the plan.


:cooldevil

Archie
07-14-2003, 04:29 PM
The genius says


Only a complete @ssh0le would conclude that clearing cap space for the summer of 2003 was the reason why we won it this past season.

and then:



That was not part of the plan.


You make no sense whatsoever. Who GAF if it was a "part of the plan"? It fucking happened and you assured us it wouldn't.

Besides, how the F do you make a championship "part of the plan"?

God you are one stupid motherfucker.

adidas11
07-14-2003, 04:33 PM
I think some here fail to realize that the HOLTING PATTERN and winning a championship this past season are actually not related. The HOLTING PATTERN does give the team excellent flexibility going forward, whether or not the team does manage to sign another star player. But what happened this past season, in terms of the team winning a title, could have happened if the Spurs had decided to not clear up cap space anyhow. The core set of players (Manu, Jax, Parker, Bowen, etc) were going to be there anyhow. I don't think the Spurs had planned on that team being the core to win championships this past year, and down the road. But a strange thing happened along the way, IT ACTUALLY WORKED.

In my opinion, the jury is still out. But as far as I can tell, the HOLTING PATTERN has been a failure this summer.

Archie
07-14-2003, 04:36 PM
As far as I can tell adidas you don't know what you are talking about. The Spurs rebuilding strategy was to develop the young talent and clear up cap room for this summer to address the retirement of David Robinson. That young talent helped the Spurs win a championship if I am not mistaken. Those criticizing this strategy claimed the Spurs were not doing what they could to win a championship.

Yeah.

scott
07-14-2003, 04:39 PM
Adidas, the flaw in that is that our roster would have looked significantly different had we not been engaged in the Holting Pattern. Its not like we would have had the exact same team, but with longer, more expensive contracts. In all likelyhood, our main players would have been different. Stephen Jackson is probably the best example. Stephen was brought in as a project and at best to be a bench player. Steve Smith, the biggest Pawn in the Holting Pattern game was the starter at the beginning of the season. Jackson entered the starting lineup only because of Smith's injury, and Jackson emerged from there.

Without the Holting Pattern, Steve Smith most likely would not have been our starting 2 at the beginning of the season and the entire house of cards begins to tumble from there.

adidas11
07-14-2003, 04:58 PM
Then can someone lay out to me how not going into the Holting Pattern would have prevented Manu (who was drafted in 1999), Parker (who was drafted before the Holting Pattern truly went into effect), and Jax (who was already on the roster) from playing on the Spurs? As I recall, the Holting Pattern had nothing to do with giving playing time to these players. But then again, maybe I'm wrong.

I'm just telling you as an honest Laker fan, I'm liking the way things are going right now! I couldn't have asked for a better scenario than how things have played out so far this summer.

Archie
07-14-2003, 05:02 PM
Too late adidas, we don't have time to rehash that bullshit. Just be assured that Ghost complained mightily that Parker wasn't traded. Also Jack starting was a part of his development.

kohai
07-14-2003, 05:05 PM
As I recall, the Holting Pattern had nothing to do with giving playing time to these players. But then again, maybe I'm wrong.

It had EVERYTHING to do with it, whether it was intentional or not. Do you think that Parker plays more than 15 minutes if GP were brought in in 2001? Do you think JAX plays if the Spurs stupidly go and get Rahim this spring?

adonis50
07-14-2003, 05:08 PM
Definitely a success for the obvious reasons, up until now at least.
Jkidd not coming to the Spurs was a weird occurence, I feel bad for TD, i think the whole JKidd fiasco was a slap in TD's face. JermO was never a priority and with Brand remains to be seen. Question is how many years is the team gonna be affected by this pattern and what are the expectations?

MannyIsGod
07-14-2003, 05:13 PM
How can winning a championship be seperated from personal moves?

Thats fucking ludacris.

Ghost is just pissed off because GP and Artest arne't here, nevermind that we didn't win a championship. He's jumping at ever chance to call this offseason a failure before its even over.

The spurs did what was nessecary to win a championshp and also left flexibility had they not done so. That is FRONT OFFICE GENIUS not FAILURE.

**** artest
**** Payton
And last but certainly not least

**** Ghost for whinning about what the spurs front office does when it leads to championships.

Archie
07-14-2003, 05:22 PM
I'm just telling you as an honest Laker fan, I'm liking the way things are going right now! I couldn't have asked for a better scenario than how things have played out so far this summer.

Get back to us in a couple of weeks. :cooldevil

adidas11
07-14-2003, 05:34 PM
Thus my statement saying that I like how things have played out so far this summer. :)

I'm just glad that Jason Kidd didn't make his way down here, or J O'neal.

Archie
07-14-2003, 05:50 PM
Don't be so sure. :smokin

spurster
07-14-2003, 06:04 PM
With the Holting Pattern, Pop made the decision to play our young athletic guys this past season with not much to lose. It turns out that decision was a big key to winning the title.

goliath
07-14-2003, 06:07 PM
The underlying purpose of the holting pattern was a success.

The purpose of the HP wasnt to get a top flight fa here...
It was to keep Tim.

The decision was made that it was more likely TD would stay if we could clear 16 mil and let him chose a teammate, than the alternative which was Payton, Spree, SAR, ect, ect.

While we didnt get Tims choice (kidd) the HP did produce TP, Manu, Jax and most importantly a title.

So the end purpose was reached...Tim signing a long term extension.

Archie
07-14-2003, 06:08 PM
Exactly, goliath.

gospurs21
07-14-2003, 06:16 PM
the only failure in the holting pattern was GW predictions we would not win title without payton or artest, which if remember correctly have NOT come true.

Boo Hoo, neither Gary nor Ron is a Spur.

Hey GW, we just won the fuking title. The holting pattern was setup to get big name FA and win title. well we didn't need a GD big name FA to win. holting pattern is history move on.

to say that one does not effect the other is just plain stupid.

Go Spurs...

Ghost Writer
07-14-2003, 06:35 PM
:rollin

What a bunch of desperate idiots.

You see the writing on the wall finally that the Holt-ing Pattern may not garner us a superstar after all, so now you want to say that because we cleared all this cap space, it allowed us to win the title this season.

:lol

Incredible.

Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-14-2003, 06:43 PM
I sleep in under my SAN ANTONIO SPURS 2003 CHAMPIONSHIP blanket, which does not have a picture of artest or payton on it.

Ghost, we're all right.

You're wrong.

Sucks doesn't it?

Archie
07-14-2003, 06:45 PM
Just go, Ghost. Just go.

gospurs21
07-14-2003, 06:45 PM
I see by GWs logic

holting pattern = getting big star FA = chance to win title

not

holting pattern = winning title

I can see how the two are different. what ever it takes to justify GWs take

I thought the ends to the means

holting pattern = winning title + chance to win more

nothing to do with big name FA, but then again GW thinks

must have 2-4 big stars = winning title

so I can see were he thinks he is right.

GW, if you want to worship big stars follow allas or lakers, the two teams who continuously do what you want.

me really thinks

GW like to whine when he doesn't get his way = truth

Go Spurs...

bigzak25
07-14-2003, 06:48 PM
key words there ghost are "may not."

if you were a fan of any other team, you'd probobaly :shootme

considering we're coming off a championship and we have no idea how this free agency will shake out when all is said and done.

So if the deals you wanted were made, what would be the difference....artest under contract today with the spurs and some cash to go after a bigman?

not much difference from rasho and a shooter...which is worst case scenario....

Archie
07-14-2003, 06:53 PM
The premise of GhostWhiner and GhostWhiner Jr's complaints about the Spurs strategy is that the Spurs were not doing what it took to win a championship in the intervening two seasons prior to the summer of 2003. For GhostWhiner Jr this was important because he wanted to see his hero David Robinson go out with another championship.

They thought a rebuilding strategy accompanied by a goal of significant cap flexibility in the summer of 2003 to address the retirement of David Robinson was entirely the wrong way to go.

Now all GhostWhiner has left is that 'winning a championship was not a part of the Spurs rebuilding strategy.' That is an idiotic view.

picnroll
07-14-2003, 06:54 PM
adidas the Holt-ing pattern was to have cap space to re-tool after the retirement of DR. The hope was to get a superstar, namely Kidd (thank God we didn't), O'Neal, Brand. There was no guarantee and we didn't but the money is still there to re-tool as best as can. Unless you can show moves that would have been better in the interim then you can't fault the plan. SAR was talked about but not likely a reality and the Spurs wouldn't have gone for it probably. In retrospectt if that deal was true (unlikely) and nothing better comes along you can fault the plan. Ghosts Payton, Artest ramblings. No thanks.

In the meantime we have the Lakers Short-term Lease Program. What's Kobe going to do next year as a FA with Payton and Malone long gone with or without ring, and MLE and LLE to restock with. I doubt Shaq's going to be able to get on his knees and beg KG, Brand and Odom to come work for chump change.

Fizzzar
07-14-2003, 06:58 PM
GW represents what's wrong with NBA basketball today. In his mind a player like Larry Bird would be crap compared to a Dominique Wilkins.

Basketball is a team sport, the Spurs showed that last season.

The Holtting pattern has been a huge success. The Spurs have a team with players who are loyal (Tim and Jax have showed it this summer), young, talented and with lots of upside. They have the chance to keep adding talent and they have an organization and a system that will make more championships a very possible accomplishment.

I guess that must suck...

Fizzzar
07-14-2003, 07:00 PM
Pic, since Malone is taking the LLE this year there will be no LLE next year for LA.

Admiral
07-14-2003, 07:08 PM
The premise of GhostWhiner and GhostWhiner Jr's complaints about the Spurs strategy is that the Spurs were not doing what it took to win a championship in the intervening two seasons prior to the summer of 2003. For GhostWhiner Jr this was important because he wanted to see his hero David Robinson go out with another championship. -Archie

Yes, Archie, I was critical that the Spurs seemed to refuse deals simply because it violated the Fantasy Summer of 2003 plan. I NEVER said that we weren't doing enough to win a title. In fact, I have said for the last two years that we could win the title, and had the talent to do it. I was one of about three people who said that and got laughed at last October. If I remember correctly, you were not one of those three.

I think we should've strongly considered the trade for Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Should we have pulled the trigger? Not necessarily, but the thing that ticked me off was that the Spurs seemed to dismiss it solely based on the contract. Perhaps they did look at it, and decided to refuse the trade because it didn't fit our personnel neeeds. I can live with that, but I think many of you would be ecstatic to get a player of Shareef's calibur at this point.

Yes, I did want to see David go out with a title. He's given so much to the city and to the franchise, and it was quite a blessing that it turned out the way it did. However, any moves we made prior to this summer would've still not made up for the crappy decisions made by management his first six or so years in the league.

As far as the Holting Pattern goes, I have to say that it has partly been a success. Yes, we won the title, but the objective of the Holting Pattern was to put ourselves in position to sign some big free agents. If you could look back at some of my posts from other forums, you would see that my major concern with this whole plan was our ability to actually sign these free agents. It's just so risky putting all of your eggs in one basket, and we're seeing that fact proven right now.

If Pop and R.C. were given truth serum, they would probably tell you that they weren't planning on winning the title this year - or even concerned with it. Biding time until this summer to sign a few big free agents was their goal, and in that sense the Holting Pattern was a success.

Hopefully Tim knows we're trying, and can remember that when he's going at it alone on the frontline next year. :(

MickeyOnFox
07-14-2003, 07:11 PM
^Good Writing Skills ^

Archie
07-14-2003, 07:32 PM
I think we should've strongly considered the trade for Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Should we have pulled the trigger?


That wasn't a real offer. If anything it was a DG special.

Dunkel Weizen
07-15-2003, 12:01 AM
I thought there was one camp that said the Spurs couldn't win without getting a young superstar FA to go besides Tim, and another that said, no they need to make trades to get older superstars so they can win before David retires.

The Spurs proved both camps wrong, so let's just enjoy the championship and stop arguing about it.

The point of this three-year plan was to keep Tim and win a championship. It was not accomplished via the means they had planned, but it happened.

Sometimes serendipity is the engine of success. Fate smiled on us. Cheers. :queen :king

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 10:49 AM
Popovich himself said that he was surprised that the Spurs won the title in his post-Finals press conference.

The Holt-ing Pattern was designed not to win in the 2002-03 season, but to get a star this summer to win in the 2003-04 season.

Get a grip.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 10:52 AM
Who cares what it was "designed" to do? They won a damn title. Stop being so damn miserable.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 11:04 AM
That's fine, then, Marcus. It's irritating that reasonably intelligent posters here are trying to spin it that clearing cap space for the summer of 2003 is the reason why we won a title last year.

That's not true.

Winning the title does soften the blow of the Holt-ing Pattern failing to bring in a star this summer, though.

Imagine if we were eliminated by the Lakers per usual or a healthy Kings team as most realistic fans figured.

How miserable would we be if the Holt-ing Pattern resulted in Rasho Nesterovic?





Question.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 11:11 AM
There you go again. It was their decision to develop the young talent which was a significant part of their path to a championship. I might add that you've wanted them to damn the consequences and play young players for quite some time now...well, at least you used to want that.

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 11:12 AM
whether indirectly or directly the result, it WAS the result of the personal moves over the past 2 years.

Ghost, it galls you that they didn't do it your way. You've spent the past year and a half saying how the Spurs weren't doing everything they could to win because they weren't running the show the way you think it should be run.

You can't simply plug in stars and expect a championship, look at Portland. Every championship over the past 12 years have involved a team with key role players, which is what the spurs built while keeping cap flexibility.

I'm so sick of hearing that the spurs weren't doing everything to win. They were doing everything to win over the next decade, not simply over 2 seasons.

Jimcs50
07-15-2003, 11:13 AM
Ghost!!!!! Has the point that Manu, Jax and TP benefited greatly this past year because of your so-called "Holting pattern" escaped you entirely??? If we had brought in some vets, then do you agree that those 3 players would have spent too much time on the bench wasting away a valuble learning experience??? Do you not see the value of trial by fire? These players will all be so much better this year because Pop let them develope by playing valuble minutes. Pop won coach of the year because he changed his ways and let the youngsters play the lion's share of the season and they turned into very good players and are may very well be on the way to stardom. Only a moron would not see the benefit here of what went down last year. The Championship was a surprise icing on the cake.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 11:15 AM
Popovich had no choice but to play the hand that was dealt. Yes, I clamored for a youth movement and Popovich to take a chance on some ballas. It worked better than I could imagine. I figured we'd just get these guys primed for a run with Duncan and a new star this season.

But you know d@mn well the Holt-ing Pattern would be judged by who we got this offseason.

I'm not impressed... or surprised.


Life goes on. I look forward to watching my San Antonio Spurs 2002-03 NBA Champions DVD next May.


:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 11:19 AM
I am looking forward to 10 years of very solid spurs basketball and a few more championship DVDs over that time thanks to them not mortgaging the future for Gary Patyon or another old player in a stupid trade.

Pop played the hand he as dealt? Excuse me if I'm wrong, but isn't Pop also the one dealing the cards? I'd say Pop always has an ace in the hole.

I'm not worried.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 11:26 AM
Manny, you're a good fan. I like you.

Were you even aware of a two-year, cap-clearing rebuilding startegy?

Or did you think all the Spurs pickups were brought in for a title run last year and not with the express intent of signing a superstar this offseason instead?



Question.


:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 11:32 AM
Ghost,

I've been reading your theories on the holting pattern for some time now, I just never used to post at SR.com.

So yes, I knew of the cap clearing plan.

By your logic, because the spurs did not mortgage the future, and had planned for flexibility, they weren't doing everything they could to win a title.

I do not agree with that.

#1 I do not think the trades you have come up with are nessecarily the best way for the team to win a title.

I think the spurs were doing everything to win a title WHILE planning for the future. They did what they had to do to win, and they did it cheaply and smartly. That does not make it an accident.

Tim Duncan didn't start off the season with the goal of being out of the playoffs in the 2nd round.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 11:35 AM
Manny, I do agree that the Spurs were trying to put the best team on the floor, but within the parameters of not taking on any large contracts that would extend beyond 2003.

That is obviously limiting your chances of adding star talent for the long-term unless you indeed sign a star free agent in 2003.


:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 11:41 AM
The fact of the matter is that the Spurs have a championship level team ready to go.

Whether or not they can compete with the the Lakers this year remains to be seen, but they are still a serious cantidate to repeate, even with no other additions this offseason.

You may disagree, I couldn't careless, you're predictions haven't been very good to this point.

Anytime your front office puts you in position to win championships for a window of a decade, it has not FAILED. To think so is assinine. You want to see an example of front office failure? Look at Portland. You want to see an example of how to run a franchise? Look at SA.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 11:58 AM
Manny, as one of the most high-profile posters in Spurs Fan Forum history, I have been wrong a lot, but my predictions have been right on more times than not.

You can try to spin things any way you would like, but last year was an unexpected championship.

We purposely avoided signing or trading for talent with contracts that would extend beyond this year, because our goal was to sign a superstar to the max this summer.

That is not happening.

The Holt-ing Pattern failed.


Spin that.

:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 12:03 PM
k

bigzak25
07-15-2003, 12:08 PM
I want to see your starting line up for this coming season had the Front Office done things YOUR WAY ghost.


if the Spurs had traded for payton, malik and tony would be gone....and there is no gurantee that payton would resign here.

so is your argument that it would be better to have artest and mercer under contract as spurs today instead of having all the cap room?

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 12:11 PM
Would you be upset if we had traded for a star and had him under contract today instead of settling for Nesterovic?



Question.


:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 12:15 PM
Hey Casper the Stupid Bitch,

Isn't that what the Poll was about? Don't those numbers speak for themselves?

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 12:17 PM
So much for having aconversation with you, Manny. I indulge all your myopic, biased questions, yet you cower like a skirt at all of mine.

Pathetic.

You are a goof. And a coward. Emmy.


:cooldevil

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 12:20 PM
lmao

DUDE.

What was the poll question?

I gave 3 options

the Current situation

OR

Either one of you're 2 star scenarios


It's obvious which one most people picked.

Don't keep asking the same question hoping to a diffrent answer.

"but but, what if this, no on, i mean"

Casper the Babbling Inquisitor.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 12:28 PM
Your poll did not account for the titles we could've won with those stars or the fact that we'd have better talent today than we do now. Besides, I could care less what a bunch of biased homers think as they hide behind a anonymous poll.

I am calling you out, b1tch.


Would you rather have Rasho Nesterovic on this team than traded for a real star over the past two years?




Question.


:cooldevil

bigzak25
07-15-2003, 12:29 PM
Would you be upset if we had traded for a star and had him under contract today instead of settling for Nesterovic?


well ghost, that's hard to say since the star is not named.
If it's a star center or power forward.....sure

What star could we have unloaded smith for....
I like star power as much as the next guy, but the star has to fit. If rasho signs as expected and the spurs are somehow able to make a run at brand too....wouldn't that be a good thing? Then, if the Spurs land Brand, we can ship Rasho out to NY later in the year no?

And if/when the spurs can't land brand, they still have cap room to make a run at a good shooter/scorer.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 12:35 PM
bigzak if we make a run for Rasho and Brand and it results in us getting bRand, I will be thrilled.

I am preparing myself mentally for the worst.


:cooldevil

scott
07-15-2003, 12:37 PM
Ghost, you can have your what-if titles, I'll keep the real one that we just won.

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 12:38 PM
How the hell can a poll acount for things that are uncertainties.

The problem is you claim them as certainties. You claim that if we had brought in payton he was bringing in the Larry Obrien in his carry on bag. You also act as though our team has no chance at winning titles now, which is actually has a very good chance of. Get fucking real.

You're trades gave them an opportunity to win 2 titles.

Guess what, so did Pops moves, and it worked for one.

You cannot guarntee they would have won titles! I think your trades would have made our team WORSE. That is the crux of my arguement.

So, since you can't seem to understand a point unless I spell it out for you, let me do just that.

I PREFER THE CURRENT TEAM WITH RASHO NESTEROVICH, THAN TO EITHER ONE OF THE 2 SCENAIROS YOU PROVIED.

#1 Payton on this team with no Tony Parker and Malik Rose

#2 Ron Artest on this team.

YES GHOST, I PREFER THE TEAM WE HAVE TO EITHER ONE OF THOSE 2.

Thats even if we dont' sign anyone else this offseason.

You're the only idiot on this board who would consider what you are doing calling me out. I've been saying that godamn same thing for the past 2 days, but because of the fact that I didn't come out and spell out to you in very simple words, I can see where it flew over your simple mind.

Guess what, most of the people here agree with me.

adidas11
07-15-2003, 12:47 PM
Finally, Manny answered (somewhat) the question.

Now here is my question, would Spurs fans be happier if the Spurs would have won the past two titles? Because the Holting Pattern, by your definition, also played a big part in San Antonio's peformance in 2001-2002. By that same token, I can also say that the HOLTING PATTERN failed, because it prevented your team from achieving it's maximum potential to be repeat champions during David Robinson's final years.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 01:08 PM
”How the hell can a poll acount for things that are uncertainties.” — Emmy
Well, duh. That’s why the poll is garbage.


”You're trades gave them an opportunity to win 2 titles.

Guess what, so did Pops moves, and it worked for one.” — Emmy
Last time I checked, 2 is better than 1. And having astar under contract now is better than none.

And don’t bring Pop into this. He would’ve avoided the Holt-ing Pattern altogether and let Robinson walk for Webber back in 2001.


”You cannot guarntee they would have won titles! I think your trades would have made our team WORSE. That is the crux of my arguement.” — Emmy
Neither of us will know for sure. But we can both agree that trades guarantee you a talent exchange, while cap space guarantees you nothing but the ability to sign free agents.

So, since you can't seem to understand a point unless I spell it out for you, let me do just that.


”I PREFER THE CURRENT TEAM WITH RASHO NESTEROVICH, THAN TO EITHER ONE OF THE 2 SCENAIROS YOU PROVIED.

#1 Payton on this team with no Tony Parker and Malik Rose

#2 Ron Artest on this team.

YES GHOST, I PREFER THE TEAM WE HAVE TO EITHER ONE OF THOSE 2.

Thats even if we dont' sign anyone else this offseason.” — Emmy
Sad.



”You're the only idiot on this board who would consider what you are doing calling me out. I've been saying that godamn same thing for the past 2 days, but because of the fact that I didn't come out and spell out to you in very simple words, I can see where it flew over your simple mind.

Guess what, most of the people here agree with me.” — Emmy
No.

You hid behind a poll and what other simpletons think instead of answering point blank Questions. Thanks for stating your thoughts succinctly… finally.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

And you are a hopeless homer for thinking the Holt-ing Pattern resulted in our title last year and was not about adding a star this summer.

Good day.

:cooldevil

gospurs21
07-15-2003, 01:17 PM
GW,
I can't (well actually I can) believe you are bring up Webber once again - you believe Webber was on his way to SA. That truly is delusional.

Lets just say for arguments sake that Webber did come here instead of D Rob. We would have lost the last 2 years in the playoffs cause Webber would have gotten injured both times. I do not see 2 championships, I still see only the real one we won this year.

You say Webber didn't get injured in 01-02 playoffs, but I am in your world and I say IF he was on the team he would have been injured. Now see how delusional your type of arguments are. Ifs are purely ifs, but reality is WE WON THE FUKING CHAMPIONSHIP by not doing what you wanted.

Go Spurs...

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 01:17 PM
Ok, so my poll is garabage, yet your question which does not account for the possible titles this team will win is not?

Where the logic in that?

scott
07-15-2003, 01:27 PM
Ghost, you should be a Kings fan. They are the best in the world at pondering their What-If Championships. Meanwhile, the rest of us will enjoy the one we really have.

10 What If Titles In A Row < 1 Real One

gospurs21
07-15-2003, 01:34 PM
According to Ghost so far management has wasted Tim's first six years in the league (like previous management DID with David) by NOT getting another STAR to join him in the line up. And will waste the rest of Tim's career if we don't get another STAR next to Tim.

We only won 2 championships in that time frame when Ghost thinks we could have won 3. The key words are "Ghost thinks". In the immortal words of the Rock "It doesn't matter what Ghost thinks". The fact is he is mad because we won
1) without need for 2nd star
2) not the way he wanted
3) despite his stubburn opions.

GW, I will say this for you, if you think the planning used by the Spurs was ONLY to get a FA STAR to play along side Tim, instead of trading for aging STAR to play along side Tim, then you are right to think the planning used by Spurs management has failed.

Those of us who think that management did what they did over the past 5 years to win championships, and continue to be a contender to win championships will celebrate the 2 championships won by Tim, Dave and the rest of the Spurs (Non Stars)and look forward to competing with the lakers for more.

Go Spurs...

spurster
07-15-2003, 01:36 PM
NO LIMIT 2001 was a failure because all the Spurs did with all their cap space was resign DRob and obtain Steve Smith. Nevertheless, the Spurs were competitive in 2001-2 (someone please make a 4th quarter shot) and 2002-3 (obviously). Because both Steve Smith and DRob's contracts ended in 2003, NO LIMIT 2003 was launched.

So far, the Spurs have again failed to obtain a star free agent. Nevertheless, we can expect a competitive team for the next 7 years. The Lakers HOF team may dominate the next year or two, but then they will dive, and the Spurs will remain in the hunt for many years after that.

You need to remember that the NO LIMIT years also had the goal of putting together championship-competitive teams. The title in 2002-3 was not an accident. The Spurs put together a great team and opened up cap space in 2003; the two goals don't completely conflict with each other. Signing a second superstar is the most obvious, perhaps the best, way of achieving a great team, but the Spurs will be in good shape with improvement from Parker and Manu and good players in other positions.

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 01:44 PM
This thread demonstrates why I flame Ghost. His takes are weak at best and to top it off he thinks that being a fan of a team means that you have to be miserable. If you aren't miserable he wants you to be so.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 02:10 PM
You guys bring nothing substantial to the table.

If we han't been fortunate enough to win a title this season, this place would be up in arms about forsaking two years to land no star.

We were lucky to win a title in a rebuilding year.

Did the Holt-ing Pattern result in us not winning the year before?

One thing has nothing to do wuth the other.

The bottom line is that the front office passed on free agent signings and trades to clear cap space to bring in a star this summer.

That did not work.

Next.




:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 02:12 PM
Ghost, the next time you have anything to say on the cap will be your first. You are a damn joke for someone who has spent as much time in this forum and the old one as you have. F'in idiot.

scott
07-15-2003, 02:16 PM
If we han't been

This seems to be a recurring theme in all your posts, Ghost.

Truthsayer
07-15-2003, 02:21 PM
Ghost -
Manny, as one of the most high-profile posters in Spurs Fan Forum history....
:lol A little impressed with yourself?

Admiral
07-15-2003, 02:21 PM
My whole beef with the Holting Pattern doesn't lie in the results nearly as much as in the philosophy. I have a problem with the mentality of "we're going to obtain ending contracts, refuse any trades if the contracts extend beyond 2003, and bide our time until the summer of 2003." That philosophy is rooted in complacency. Why sacrifice two years just for a mere chance at signing some free agents? There are no guarantees in that, but I suppose there also weren't guarantees that we would've done any better had we made trades.

Unlike Ghost, I can't come up with a huge list of trades that I wish we had made. I certainly would've considered the Payton trade at the time, but looking back on it I see that keeping Parker and Rose was a good move. I wish we had looked at Abdur-Rahim a little more, especially since he is a lot better than Nesterovic. The Mercer and Artest deal is one that I am glad we didn't make. However, the main point here is that many people aren't accounting for the trades we refused that never became public knowledge. Who knows what we could've refused in the name of cap space?

I can't argue that the Holting Pattern put us in a position to make a lot of noise this summer. On that count, it's too early to declare the Holting Pattern a success or failure. I am very disappointed in having to resort to signing Nesterovic. I trust that Pop and R.C. will do their best with Nesterovic and with the rest of the summer though. Their average is much better that most front offices' best.

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 02:27 PM
The whole arguement against what the front office has done is based on a bunch of big ass what ifs and not the fact that it doesn't get much better than what it already is at.

Admiral
07-15-2003, 02:31 PM
The whole arguement against what the front office has done is based on a bunch of big ass what ifs and not the fact that it doesn't get much better than what it already is at. -Manny

So to you, it doesn't get much better than waiting two years for the Spurs to sign Rasho Nesterovic?!? I'm reserving judgment until this thing is over, but even the biggest homer has to admit that the Holting Pattern has yielded us none of our top choices going into the summer.

Hopefully that will change in the next two weeks with the signing of Elton Brand. :hat

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 02:33 PM
b]Manny[/b], try that again, but in English this time.


I agree 100% with Admiral. Who knows what trades or signings the Spurs could've made?

I just have never been a fan of forsaking the 'now' for an uncertain 'future'.

We are now seeing how difficult it is to lure star talent from another team.

It's not over yet.

We'll see what happens. I hope we get Brand or Odom.


:cooldevil


My whole beef with the Holting Pattern doesn't lie in the results nearly as much as in the philosophy. I have a problem with the mentality of "we're going to obtain ending contracts, refuse any trades if the contracts extend beyond 2003, and bide our time until the summer of 2003." That philosophy is rooted in complacency. Why sacrifice two years just for a mere chance at signing some free agents? There are no guarantees in that, but I suppose there also weren't guarantees that we would've done any better had we made trades.

Unlike Ghost, I can't come up with a huge list of trades that I wish we had made. I certainly would've considered the Payton trade at the time, but looking back on it I see that keeping Parker and Rose was a good move. I wish we had looked at Abdur-Rahim a little more, especially since he is a lot better than Nesterovic. The Mercer and Artest deal is one that I am glad we didn't make. However, the main point here is that many people aren't accounting for the trades we refused that never became public knowledge. Who knows what we could've refused in the name of cap space?

I can't argue that the Holting Pattern put us in a position to make a lot of noise this summer. On that count, it's too early to declare the Holting Pattern a success or failure. I am very disappointed in having to resort to signing Nesterovic. I trust that Pop and R.C. will do their best with Nesterovic and with the rest of the summer though. Their average is much better that most front offices' best.

Complacency sucks.

scott
07-15-2003, 02:37 PM
I agree 100% with Admiral. Who knows what trades or signings the Spurs could've made?

Good point Ghost. But, you seem fairly condifent that whatever trades or signings we would have made would have automatically led to more championships than the one we just won.

What is there to complain about again?

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 02:40 PM
My whole beef with the Holting Pattern doesn't lie in the results nearly as much as in the philosophy. I have a problem with the mentality of "we're going to obtain ending contracts, refuse any trades if the contracts extend beyond 2003, and bide our time until the summer of 2003." That philosophy is rooted in complacency. Why sacrifice two years just for a mere chance at signing some free agents? There are no guarantees in that, but I suppose there also weren't guarantees that we would've done any better had we made trades.


God this is such a joke. There's a reason the Spurs did what they did: TO GIVE TIM DUNCAN A REASON TO STAY IN SAN ANTONIO.

What about this is so hard for you two to understand about that? Dammit get a fucking clue already.

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 02:40 PM
I've realized his problem in one post.

He doesn't realize what he's advocating is actually what he says he's against.

Passing up on now for an uncertain future.

Once again boys and girls:

Can someone explain to me how trades give way to a certain future?

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 02:42 PM
Manny, consistency is Ghost's forte, didn't you know that?

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 02:44 PM
"Can someone explain to me how trades give way to a certain future?" — Manny
Because we'd have star talent signed right now.



scott, there is nothing to complain about. I am just concerned that we may fall behind the Lakers again if we don't add another star, that's all.

I got my fingers crossed for Brand or Odom.

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 02:48 PM
Why sacrifice two years just for a mere chance at signing some free agents?

So you have a better 10 years after that.

So you can develop young talent.

So you aren't stuck with just whoever you can trade for that doesn't fit into your long term plans.

What is so damn hard to understand about this?

Shit, at least the Spurs are still on the upswing with this team instead of locked into a lot of old and decaying talent for the future. Duncan's a less of a lock to remain in SA under that scenario.

Stop complaining and fucking enjoy this team's success or go slit your wrists already. If you are miserable at this point become a Hawks fan or something.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 02:52 PM
Marcus, if you fully endorsed the Holt-ing Pattern, how come you had a penchant for coming up with literally dowzens of trade scenarios over the past two years when I told you that was a big waste of time?






Question.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 02:55 PM
So I have to refrain from discussing scenarios simply because I favored a certain strategy? WTF?

Ghost, if you fully endorsed the 'Blow It All NOW" strategy why did you celebrate when the Spurs won the championship this year?

Apology accepted. 'tard. Holting Pattern. Etc...

MannyIsGod
07-15-2003, 02:59 PM
Championship > Star Talent.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 02:59 PM
"So I have to refrain from discussing scenarios simply because I favored a certain strategy? WTF?" — Marcus
:rollin


That's p1ss.

You invented scenarios where the Spurs could trade for star talent with contracts that extended beyond 2003.

How could you endore the Holt-ing Pattern and simultaneously create ways to get out of it?




Question.


And please don't say "For the sake of conversation.".

:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 03:05 PM
Ghost, if you fully endorsed the 'Blow It All NOW" strategy why did you celebrate when the Spurs won the championship this year?

Answer the Popd@mn question.

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 03:06 PM
I discussed some trades that consisted of using the Spurs' cap flexibility this summer in deals. Under your "BLOW IT ALL NOW" strategy the Spurs would never have had that option.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 03:08 PM
Anser mine first, b1tch.

I already told you that if we added a star, I believe we possibly could've won two titles and still have star talent under contract.


Unlike you, I never dodge a Question.

Now answer why you were the leader of creating trade proposals during the Holt-ing Pattern. please.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 03:11 PM
:lol

What now, child? What now? The Spurs would never have had the opportunity to trade that cap felxibility under all of your scenarios. The Spurs won a fucking championship this year in case you haven't noticed. And they did that despite your assurances that they never would.

Suck it, trick.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 03:19 PM
You're hopeless.

While I always give you honest answers to your questions (which always try to derail the conversation when you're busted), you never have to courage to answer mine.

Why did you come up with dozens of trade proposals to trade for talent dudring the Holt-ing Pattern?



Question, b1tch.


:cooldevil

Marcus Bryant
07-15-2003, 03:36 PM
Yeah, I came up with "trade proposals" with the idea of the Spurs using the cap flexibility coming up in this summer as an asset to deal to other teams. I don't see how this is inconsistent. This is not the same as you just wanting to do trades to do trades.

Ghost Writer
07-15-2003, 03:47 PM
Those weren't the only trade proposals you had in mind.

The point is, you and I both look at any and all ways to get star talent to the Spurs.


I don't know where the hostility originates from.


:cooldevil