Trade Murray

[alpha_HaZE]

DJ with his current contract is OK player, but at 17mi per year, unless he takes that next step, he will be huge liability. To me, he needs to learn how to finish near the rim meaning be able to take the contract and score the basket. His rebounding is him main asset right now, he needs a second thing that can do very well.

[rankingtear]

Synergy Playtypes











Player
Cut
Transition
Roll Man
Spot up
Off-Screen
Isolation
Handoff
Post Up
PNR Ballhandler


Demar Derozan
50
73
-
39
57
90
77
82
90


Bryn Forbes
-
57
-
81
82
-
85
-
52


Marco Bellineli
17
72
-
59
55
-
60
-
41


Patty Mills
-
77
-
95
54
10
83
-
83


Dejounte Murray
12
51
-
48
-
38
18
-
31


Derrick White
65
34
-
71
47
36
99
-
86


Lonnie Walker
48
11
-
58
-
80
81
-
9


Keldon Johnson
53
64
-
99
-
-
-
-
92



Cut
Transition
Roll Man
Spot up
Off-Screen
Isolation
Handoff
Post Up
PNR Ballhandler


Spurs
21th
7th
18th
7th
10th
7th
1st
6th
5th



- Derozan is the spurs best lead creator by far
- Dejounte is an average to below average lead ballhandler
- Derrick strength is off-ball secondary creator ( spotups, cuts , handoffs )
- Lonnie has long ways to go to handle the pick and roll but is the only good isolation scorer out of the 4
- Keldon has shown potential as a pick and roll ballhandler but on very small sample size
- There is no one in this group that can replace Bryn shooting off screen except for derrick

[JuneJive]

Where did you get this data? Is it free?

[rankingtear]

Where did you get this data? Is it free?

Yeah nba.com

[Dejounte]

Synergy Playtypes











Player
Cut
Transition
Roll Man
Spot up
Off-Screen
Isolation
Handoff
Post Up
PNR Ballhandler


Demar Derozan
50
73
-
39
57
90
77
82
90


Bryn Forbes
-
57
-
81
82
-
85
-
52


Marco Bellineli
17
72
-
59
55
-
60
-
41


Patty Mills
-
77
-
95
54
10
83
-
83


Dejounte Murray
12
51
-
48
-
38
18
-
31


Derrick White
65
34
-
71
47
36
99
-
86


Lonnie Walker
48
11
-
58
-
80
81
-
9


Keldon Johnson
53
64
-
99
-
-
-
-
92



Cut
Transition
Roll Man
Spot up
Off-Screen
Isolation
Handoff
Post Up
PNR Ballhandler


Spurs
21th
7th
18th
7th
10th
7th
1st
6th
5th



- Derozan is the spurs best lead creator by far
- Dejounte is an average to below average lead ballhandler
- Derrick strength is off-ball secondary creator ( spotups, cuts , handoffs )
- Lonnie has long ways to go to handle the pick and roll but is the only good isolation scorer out of the 4
- Keldon has shown potential as a pick and roll ballhandler but on very small sample size
- There is no one in this group that can replace Bryn shooting off screen except for derrick


Is there any way to adjust Lonnie's numbers to only include Bubble games? I think his play during the Bubble is more indicative of how he will play going forward. He showed a great improvement in feel for the game.

[Biggems]

What is his potential value? I am sure other teams know his flaws......what can we realistically get in return?

[ZeusWillJudge]

Synergy Playtypes











Player
Cut
Transition
Roll Man
Spot up
Off-Screen
Isolation
Handoff
Post Up
PNR Ballhandler


Demar Derozan
50
73
-
39
57
90
77
82
90


Bryn Forbes
-
57
-
81
82
-
85
-
52


Marco Bellineli
17
72
-
59
55
-
60
-
41


Patty Mills
-
77
-
95
54
10
83
-
83


Dejounte Murray
12
51
-
48
-
38
18
-
31


Derrick White
65
34
-
71
47
36
99
-
86


Lonnie Walker
48
11
-
58
-
80
81
-
9


Keldon Johnson
53
64
-
99
-
-
-
-
92



Cut
Transition
Roll Man
Spot up
Off-Screen
Isolation
Handoff
Post Up
PNR Ballhandler


Spurs
21th
7th
18th
7th
10th
7th
1st
6th
5th



- Derozan is the spurs best lead creator by far
- Dejounte is an average to below average lead ballhandler
- Derrick strength is off-ball secondary creator ( spotups, cuts , handoffs )
- Lonnie has long ways to go to handle the pick and roll but is the only good isolation scorer out of the 4
- Keldon has shown potential as a pick and roll ballhandler but on very small sample size
- There is no one in this group that can replace Bryn shooting off screen except for derrick

Is there any way to adjust Lonnie's numbers to only include Bubble games? I think his play during the Bubble is more indicative of how he will play going forward. He showed a great improvement in feel for the game.


Lonnie and DJ are both mis-used, on a malformed roster. It's hard to gauge what either one of them are capable of. I'm a little surprised that Lonnie looks that bad in transition, but the rest is pretty unsurprising.

[KobesAchilles]

Lonnie and DJ are both mis-used, on a malformed roster. It's hard to gauge what either one of them are capable of. I'm a little surprised that Lonnie looks that bad in transition, but the rest is pretty unsurprising.
i think the people who are saying that Lonnie has star potential haven’t realized the Pop hasn’t called a single play for Lonnie in the two years he’s been here. It’s not that the offense doesn’t run through him, it’s more that Pop does not and has not called a play to get him into rhythm offensively. For me, that’s more telling than any stat of Lonnie’s.

[Sugus]

i think the people who are saying that Lonnie has star potential haven’t realized the Pop hasn’t called a single play for Lonnie in the two years he’s been here. It’s not that the offense doesn’t run through him, it’s more that Pop does not and has not called a play to get him into rhythm offensively. For me, that’s more telling than any stat of Lonnie’s.

Uh, was that a mistype? I think you're missing a "doesn't" there so the sentence makes sense. I for one, certainly think Lonnie has star potential, and also absolutely recognize Pop has been shunning him. It's no secret at all - has everyone forgotten Lonnie literally not seeing the court at all 1 game out of 2 for like, the first half of this very season? Pop just loathes him or something, he's been the whipping boy right up until the bubble. It's especially stupid since Lonnie is clearly a player who's best with the ball in his hands, and yet the Spurs Gameplan seems to particularly and forcefully relegate Lonnie to a Rockettes-esque spot-up corner shooter who doesn't do anything else.

I think at some point, Pop is trying to make one of his stupid statements, like "prove to me you're so good that we HAVE TO call plays for you" or some BS like that. It's fucked with Lonnie's mentality for sure.

[KobesAchilles]

Uh, was that a mistype? I think you're missing a "doesn't" there so the sentence makes sense. I for one, certainly think Lonnie has star potential, and also absolutely recognize Pop has been shunning him. It's no secret at all - has everyone forgotten Lonnie literally not seeing the court at all 1 game out of 2 for like, the first half of this very season? Pop just loathes him or something, he's been the whipping boy right up until the bubble. It's especially stupid since Lonnie is clearly a player who's best with the ball in his hands, and yet the Spurs Gameplan seems to particularly and forcefully relegate Lonnie to a Rockettes-esque spot-up corner shooter who doesn't do anything else.

I think at some point, Pop is trying to make one of his stupid statements, like "prove to me you're so good that we HAVE TO call plays for you" or some BS like that. It's fucked with Lonnie's mentality for sure.

No I said it right. I hear people say he has star potential and that he’s going to become a more focal point of the offense, or should become one soon, and I’m just thinking to myself the dude has never had a play called for him. He is going to suck next year. Bad coaching, no role, no dead eye spot on the floor, no chance in getting into a rhythm when on the floor. These are all things Lonnie is going to deal with next year as well and so anybody saying he’s going to have a good season next year is deluding themselves.

[TD 21]

None of the others start or are you saying they are not PG? Dinwiddie would be the closest to starting but he is the backup to Kyrie when healthy. If your going to say they are combo guards so is Murray.

I'm saying they're either clearly starting caliber (Schroder, Smart, Dinwiddie) or third guards (Hill, Clarkson). Labeling them backup "PG's" makes it sound like they're roughly 15 mpg players.



Didn't they know Bertans inside and out? Asking for a friend.

They underutilized him, but it's not like they didn't know his skillset. The other 29 front offices are going to be acutely aware of Murray's.

[Sugus]

No I said it right. I hear people say he has star potential and that he’s going to become a more focal point of the offense, or should become one soon, and I’m just thinking to myself the dude has never had a play called for him. He is going to suck next year. Bad coaching, no role, no dead eye spot on the floor, no chance in getting into a rhythm when on the floor. These are all things Lonnie is going to deal with next year as well and so anybody saying he’s going to have a good season next year is deluding themselves.

Oh, I see what you mean. Well, I think there's quite a lot more years to be had for Lonnie to attain stardom, than there are of Pop coaching the Spurs. I know the mentality here is that he'll be coaching till 90 or something like that, but he realistically doesn't have many years left, especially if the Spurs don't get right back into contention or at least playoff-caliber team. I can't see Pop staying for, say, 3 more seasons on a tanking team. And then you consider Lonnie is 21...

I don't know that he'll "suck" outright next season. He will for sure if he doesn't use the summer to work in the glaring holes in his game that were exposed in the bubble, but if he puts in the time and effort, I don't see how he couldn't at least be serviceable even without plays called for him. Lonnie's most dangerous enemy is himself - if you compile every near-miss he had at the rim in the 8 bubble games, I'm certain he could've come close to at least 10PPG or even better. I'm certainly not expecting him to break out next season, but the one after that, that's going to be his chance - especially since, if I'm not mistaken, that would be his contract year after the rookie contract is up.

[The Truth #6]

No I said it right. I hear people say he has star potential and that he’s going to become a more focal point of the offense, or should become one soon, and I’m just thinking to myself the dude has never had a play called for him. He is going to suck next year. Bad coaching, no role, no dead eye spot on the floor, no chance in getting into a rhythm when on the floor. These are all things Lonnie is going to deal with next year as well and so anybody saying he’s going to have a good season next year is deluding themselves.

He hasn’t had a lot of things go in his favor. If the spurs get rid of Forbes and Belinelli, then his minutes should go up. I am cautiously optimistic that Pop will give him an increased role next year, but it’s not certain by any means. Walker doesn’t have a great feel for the game, so he’s still trying to figure out what his role is. He has work to do but he seems up to the challenge. And he doesn’t sulk like Dejounte, so that helps.

[FutureMan]

OKC: Snell, Lyles, & SAS 11th
SAS: Gallinari (Sign and trade) & DET 7th
DET: Murray & OKC 25th


Haliburton. Mills. Weatherspoon
White. Walker. Belinelli
DeRozan. Johnson. Open - Batum?
Gallinari. Gay. Samanic
Aldridge. Poeltl. Tillie

[rankingtear]

Oh, I see what you mean. Well, I think there's quite a lot more years to be had for Lonnie to attain stardom, than there are of Pop coaching the Spurs. I know the mentality here is that he'll be coaching till 90 or something like that, but he realistically doesn't have many years left, especially if the Spurs don't get right back into contention or at least playoff-caliber team. I can't see Pop staying for, say, 3 more seasons on a tanking team. And then you consider Lonnie is 21...

I don't know that he'll "suck" outright next season. He will for sure if he doesn't use the summer to work in the glaring holes in his game that were exposed in the bubble, but if he puts in the time and effort, I don't see how he couldn't at least be serviceable even without plays called for him. Lonnie's most dangerous enemy is himself - if you compile every near-miss he had at the rim in the 8 bubble games, I'm certain he could've come close to at least 10PPG or even better. I'm certainly not expecting him to break out next season, but the one after that, that's going to be his chance - especially since, if I'm not mistaken, that would be his contract year after the rookie contract is up.

Yeah, it's not pop's fault lonnie has struggled he still cant finish with his left hand. Teams are forcing him to use it everytime.

[rankingtear]

Sell high?

[tmtcsc]

Sell high?

Absolutely

[duncan2k5]

Trade murray, but keep DeRozan? Tons of low IQ spur fans in here, I see

[RC_Drunkford]

Murray has made great strides. He might really become triple double machine. Definitely gotta keep him.

[lebomb]

If Murray can stay consistent, I would not trade him. But, this remains to be seen. We are just 4 games into the season.

[John B]

Murray has made great strides. He might really become triple double machine. Definitely gotta keep him.
I hope he doesn’t become like a stat-padder like Westbrook, but translate it to W for the team. I mean DJ says the right things, 29 points didn’t matter because they lost. Because tge big 3 were never about the personal stats.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I just remember when Pop put walker on a Leonard and he gave up rather than tried to defend him.

People act like the Spurs don't have a history of developing talent.

[TD 21]

:lmao Celebrating after 4 games. I thought you were better than that.

[TD 21]

I said what I said. :wakeup

[PrimeMinister]

There’s an argument blowing up the whole roster outside the 2019 and 2020 draft is the right course of action

But I don’t think that’s how you arrived at this topic and singled out Murray before he had a breakout year and proved to be one of the few bright spots this year compared to expectations set for him going in.

on its face the first comment from your original post could not be more hilariously wrong.

Hold the L.

[tmtcsc]

Good Gawd, no one on this roster is Untradeable. NO ONE. This thing is a mess and the one elite player we have doesn't play defense & can't stretch the floor. This team needs players who compete, can shoot the 3 and defend.

[Chinook]

I can't speak for Teeds, but I don't see Murray's performance as a counter to the push to trade him. Again, STers need to get out of their heads the idea that you should trade away bad players and keep good ones. It's dumb and leads to unrealistic trade expectations where you want value for garbage. DJM is the poster child for a guy who'd make a ton of sense on the block. He has talent and certainly can help win games in the right situation, but he didn't develop role-player skills and doesn't have the ceiling to be a star. I think this year has been way more evidence for how low the ceilings for the Spurs' prospects actually are. Walker is the only guy who's legit showing blue-chip potential at this point, and that's only if you squint.

There's also the case to be made that Murray least fits the team out of any of the White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson and even DeRozan group. Far from being a bright spot, the WAY Murray has played has done nothing to change that. The entire offense shifting to accommodate playing him and White together with any offensive player has led to a weird system that makes it hard to generate three-point looks. He's been healthier than Derrick, and that's really important, but that is more telling of Derrick's limitations than DeJounte's advantages. It's just really hard to imagine DJM giving up the ball so much that a star could actually have it while also having a more traditional playing style that generates good shots. It's true that Murray isn't the only one at fault. DeRozan and Johnson both get it in their heads way too often to try to beat their men off the dribble in order to take contested shots. But Keldon's at least young enough to change, and DMDR is better at being a ball-dominant downhill offensive engine than Murray is.

In an ideal world, something built around a healthy, durable White and two of Walker, Vassell and Johnson is a perimeter trio with potential. It might not be realistic to such an extent that the Spurs might have to look at trading White and coaching Murray to stop calling his own number. Their ceiling is lower that way, but the floor is probably a bit higher. DeJounte's improvement as an inside scorer is commendable, and it might even make sense to see if he could develop a better feel for the game while the team is a non-competitor anyway. Certainly, the benefits of him as a willing spokesperson for the team is helpful. But if the goal is to be a good team or to create an environment to develop Walker or some young perimeter guy who is a better prospect than Walker, then even giving Murray another year might not be tenable.

[The Truth #6]

I can't speak for Teeds, but I don't see Murray's performance as a counter to the push to trade him. Again, STers need to get out of their heads the idea that you should trade away bad players and keep good ones. It's dumb and leads to unrealistic trade expectations where you want value for garbage. DJM is the poster child for a guy who'd make a ton of sense on the block. He has talent and certainly can help win games in the right situation, but he didn't develop role-player skills and doesn't have the ceiling to be a star. I think this year has been way more evidence for how low the ceilings for the Spurs' prospects actually are. Walker is the only guy who's legit showing blue-chip potential at this point, and that's only if you squint.

There's also the case to be made that Murray least fits the team out of any of the White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson and even DeRozan group. Far from being a bright spot, the WAY Murray has played has done nothing to change that. The entire offense shifting to accommodate playing him and White together with any offensive player has led to a weird system that makes it hard to generate three-point looks. He's been healthier than Derrick, and that's really important, but that is more telling of Derrick's limitations than DeJounte's advantages. It's just really hard to imagine DJM giving up the ball so much that a star could actually have it while also having a more traditional playing style that generates good shots. It's true that Murray isn't the only one at fault. DeRozan and Johnson both get it in their heads way too often to try to beat their men off the dribble in order to take contested shots. But Keldon's at least young enough to change, and DMDR is better at being a ball-dominant downhill offensive engine than Murray is.

In an ideal world, something built around a healthy, durable White and two of Walker, Vassell and Johnson is a perimeter trio with potential. It might not be realistic to such an extent that the Spurs might have to look at trading White and coaching Murray to stop calling his own number. Their ceiling is lower that way, but the floor is probably a bit higher. DeJounte's improvement as an inside scorer is commendable, and it might even make sense to see if he could develop a better feel for the game while the team is a non-competitor anyway. Certainly, the benefits of him as a willing spokesperson for the team is helpful. But if the goal is to be a good team or to create an environment to develop Walker or some young perimeter guy who is a better prospect than Walker, then even giving Murray another year might not be tenable.

Solid points.

My brief analysis is that while DJ’s progress happily surprised many, his style of play is not conducive to be an actual point guard. He needs to be a 2 guard (if these distinctions even exist anymore). His mid range game is great in isolation but creates more stagnancy in the the flow of the offense. Seems like a great time to consider trading high. I am ok with White and Jones if we could trade Dejounte to get a player with a better fit.

[KobesAchilles]

I agree that we should trade Murray but this isn't the year to do it. We should wait until next year. He has shown improvement in the midrange so maybe (just maybe) he will develop an actual 3 point shot during the summer. If he doesn't get one by next season then trade his ass. We don't need a mini- DeRozan. But the reason to wait a year is due to his value being somewhat low. He will be the main guy next year so his stats should improve. This will improve his trade stock as well. He will still be young and on a good contract for a team. For some reason I think that if Murray kept his shitty ass, midrange, no feel game but upped his ppg to like 20 then teams would be more willing to offer a first rounder for him. Especially the bad teams who can convince themselves if we trade Murray and our 1t for their 1st then they are getting back a good player and a decentish pick

[exstatic]

Murray would be a much better player if he didn’t attempt difficult shots when he didn’t need to. Last game he threw up a spinning fade away jumper, uncontested, and it bounced off the rim. He’s elite in the mid range when he dribbles straight into the shot, or levels off his man with a crossover, fading slightly left. DeRozan has been an awful influence in that regard.

[MultiTroll]

His development has been soo f'd up with Bryn Bryn, Wombat, Derozian, Coach telling him to pattern his game after Chrissy Paul (they are two COMPLETELY different playing styles + CPO hasn't won shit. Albeit he did very well against Phaggot State before the injury)

All in all he has done excellent. Were he to be playing in his proper role with compatible players and a competent coach i firmly believe All Star is obtainable.
Like to see any of you defend the perimeter with Bryn Bryn and Wombat at your side.

[GAustex]

If he could only shoot a decent percentage on the 3. All star 2 guard. Throw it to him when in need and he has a good chance to get a decent shot. Combine that with a high percent 3 pointer.
Just cannot trust him as PG

[longhorn]

Good Gawd, no one on this roster is Untradeable. NO ONE. This thing is a mess and the one elite player we have doesn't play defense & can't stretch the floor. This team needs players who compete, can shoot the 3 and defend.

Did...did you just call DeRozan an elite player?

[Edmonk]

Murray.is our second best player, no need to trade

[TD 21]

There’s an argument blowing up the whole roster outside the 2019 and 2020 draft is the right course of action

But I don’t think that’s how you arrived at this topic and singled out Murray before he had a breakout year and proved to be one of the few bright spots this year compared to expectations set for him going in.

on its face the first comment from your original post could not be more hilariously wrong.

Hold the L.

It partially explains my arrival and the first comment was spot on.

His incremental improvement has been conflated with his breaking out. All that's really happened is his play making and finishing went from bad to decent, his deep mid range pullup has been good (but his short mid range game, floaters/runners, etc. and his 3, have been bad).

MPG, usage and his subsisting on a shot profile that beefs up his ppg, but bails out the defense and doesn't actually help the offense, mostly explain the counting stats uptick, but the catch-all metrics say he's similar to the same flawed player who can't/refuses to create/convert high value shots.



Walker is the only guy who's legit showing blue-chip potential at this point, and that's only if you squint.

There's also the case to be made that Murray least fits the team out of any of the White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson and even DeRozan group.

In an ideal world, something built around a healthy, durable White and two of Walker, Vassell and Johnson is a perimeter trio with potential.

But if the goal is to be a good team or to create an environment to develop Walker or some young perimeter guy who is a better prospect than Walker, then even giving Murray another year might not be tenable.

Walker IV has been replacement level to this point. At this juncture, it's more so about whether he can be a legit rotation player than a foundational one, but I get and agree with the gist.



Murray.is our second best player, no need to trade

No, he isn't and even if he were that misses the point, which is that he has no role on a good - elite team (which granted I don't actually think is their goal, but is theoretically supposed to be every team's) and that this core as a collective is lacking in both talent and fit and therefore not worth continuing to invest copious amounts of time and money into.

[tmtcsc]

Did...did you just call DeRozan an elite player?

Absolutely. He's an elite mid-range scorer. Unfortunately, that day has come & gone in today's NBA. He still struggles to even take 3 pointers.

[Kurgan]

If the return is good? Sure. No one on this roster should be untouchable

[RC_Drunkford]

you absolutely do not trade him

[duncan2k5]

Did...did you just call DeRozan an elite player?

Unbelievable!

[Prime BEEF]

If the return is good? Sure. No one on this roster should be untouchable
Agreed

[The Truth #6]

It's tough. He works his ass off. Is super dedicated. Has a passion for defense. And has a passion to improve. Those are all amazing, which is why the idea of trading him seems like a bad idea. But if Pop can't convince him to play to his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, and allow others to flourish, then as Chinook suggested (as far as I interpreted it), then there is a ceiling for this team and it impacts how other wings can grow. It's a much better challenge to deal with then the DDR situation, but still a puzzle to see how everyone fits together. White, Vassel, Keldon, and IV can all play off the ball to some degree, and/or at least accept that role, but I don't see that with happening with Dejounte. It's a double edged sword. White can accept the second team role but he has challenges being assertive enough. Again, if Pop can reign Murray in, or at least hold him more accountable if he's going to be trusted to be the leader of the team, then I'm on board.

In short, Pop needs to coach him way harder, just like he did Parker, in my opinion.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

DeRozan has been an awful influence in that regard.

but if derozan could influence DJM etal into getting to the free throw line

at his size, and the way he does it (no gimmicks), he's arguably the best in the league

only keldon seems to 'get it' -- free throws are free. if it's free it's for me.

[Dverde]

The player to replace him hurt all the time...Tre is a nice backup like Patty

[PrimeMinister]

I've seen enough. Delusional, low IQ and unskilled, is an untenable combination.

Maybe someday he'll accept that his only path to being a useful player is to become a 3 and D type, but it more than likely won't be here. Without any elite young talent to put him in his place, he'll likely continue his delusions of grandeur. Either way, I'm not interested in wasting a bunch more years on the off chance that changes (the potential payoff isn't worth it), while he cramps the current and future youth of this team because he's such a poor fit.

It's insane to think of the contract this bit player received based on nothing. On his own, he won't fetch much, but if Aldridge or DeRozan can return a pick (something like Aldridge for Olynyk and 23), they could add it to 11 to try to get to 5.

For reference- this is the OP.

Something tells me this was less about pragmatic roster building and more about an individual bone to pick with one player who promptly shit all over this take.

hold the L.

[John B]

Nah, Pop already gave the keys of the car to DJ as the undisputed PG of the Spurs. I think he got the leadership, the motivation to win. I just hate when he gambles too much for a steal. Just keep in front of the guy.

[rankingtear]

I can't speak for Teeds, but I don't see Murray's performance as a counter to the push to trade him. Again, STers need to get out of their heads the idea that you should trade away bad players and keep good ones. It's dumb and leads to unrealistic trade expectations where you want value for garbage. DJM is the poster child for a guy who'd make a ton of sense on the block. He has talent and certainly can help win games in the right situation, but he didn't develop role-player skills and doesn't have the ceiling to be a star. I think this year has been way more evidence for how low the ceilings for the Spurs' prospects actually are. Walker is the only guy who's legit showing blue-chip potential at this point, and that's only if you squint.

There's also the case to be made that Murray least fits the team out of any of the White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson and even DeRozan group. Far from being a bright spot, the WAY Murray has played has done nothing to change that. The entire offense shifting to accommodate playing him and White together with any offensive player has led to a weird system that makes it hard to generate three-point looks. He's been healthier than Derrick, and that's really important, but that is more telling of Derrick's limitations than DeJounte's advantages. It's just really hard to imagine DJM giving up the ball so much that a star could actually have it while also having a more traditional playing style that generates good shots. It's true that Murray isn't the only one at fault. DeRozan and Johnson both get it in their heads way too often to try to beat their men off the dribble in order to take contested shots. But Keldon's at least young enough to change, and DMDR is better at being a ball-dominant downhill offensive engine than Murray is.

In an ideal world, something built around a healthy, durable White and two of Walker, Vassell and Johnson is a perimeter trio with potential. It might not be realistic to such an extent that the Spurs might have to look at trading White and coaching Murray to stop calling his own number. Their ceiling is lower that way, but the floor is probably a bit higher. DeJounte's improvement as an inside scorer is commendable, and it might even make sense to see if he could develop a better feel for the game while the team is a non-competitor anyway. Certainly, the benefits of him as a willing spokesperson for the team is helpful. But if the goal is to be a good team or to create an environment to develop Walker or some young perimeter guy who is a better prospect than Walker, then even giving Murray another year might not be tenable.

The lineup of Murray - [ White/Vassell/Lonnie ] - Mills - Gay - Poeltl is a 30 net rating lineup. The #1 net rating lineup in the NBA for all lineups over 100 min played.

The starting lineup with DJ-White has an offensive rating of 117.9 the only lineup higher with 300 min played is SAC and PHI starting lineups. Higher than UTA, PHX , POR , MIL starting lineup of top 10 offensive teams.

[slick'81]

Just move him to sg ,and teach him that three ball

[GAustex]

Just move him to sg ,and teach him that three ball
This

[exstatic]

Just move him to sg ,and teach him that three ball


This

Back in 1985, the Pistons were just starting to emerge as an NBA force. They had Isiah Thomas at point, and he had been an All Star 4 times, including his rookie year. They had a pick in the teens, and drafted a PG from McNeese St. There just wasn’t any question that they would play them together, and the playmaking would sort itself out.

Just play them together. Everything else will sort itself out.

[Chinook]

Just move him to sg ,and teach him that three ball

That does nothing to solve the problem. The problem (directly as it relates to Murray and not Pop and the other players) is that Murray holds the ball and calls his own number too often. That's not going to change because he's the "SG". He did it with White and DeRozan on the court despite both of them being better play-makers. Murray's behavior and feel for the game are Murray factors, not factors for being called whatever position.

[emanueldavidginobili]

I get it he over dribbles some times makes bad decisions and calls his number but this kid is still trying to feel things out and you can't without time on the court. He's been making strides each and every year. His passing and ball handling is light years better than it was when he first came in, even his decision making. Came out of UW raw as hell he didn't play his rookie year, started to play some his second year which was basically his rookie year, didn't play in year three, season four which was after a major injury and always takes a full season afterwards to get fully back and plus covid happened and now here we are and he's having his best season ever in his only year that he's had free reigns, also first year with playing over 25 minutes per game. The kids in a clear upward trajectory, and I expect him to make an even bigger jump next season.

[TD 21]

For reference- this is the OP.

Something tells me this was less about pragmatic roster building and more about an individual bone to pick with one player who promptly shit all over this take.

hold the L.

Again, it was both (they're one and the same, since I don't believe his archetype has a role on an upper echelon team in the modern NBA).

He can fool casuals and homers/apologists alike with his counting stats improvement mostly borne of increase mpg/usage, but he's the same flawed offensive player he's ever been.

:lmao At thinking a guy playing like it's '01 "shit all over this take" and that I need to "hold the L". If there were so much as a credible argument to the contrary of what I said, I obviously wouldn't have bumped the thread.

[PrimeMinister]

Again, it was both (they're one and the same, since I don't believe his archetype has a role on an upper echelon team in the modern NBA).

He can fool casuals and homers/apologists alike with his counting stats improvement mostly borne of increase mpg/usage, but he's the same flawed offensive player he's ever been.

:lmao At thinking a guy playing like it's '01 "shit all over this take" and that I need to "hold the L". If there were so much as a credible argument to the contrary of what I said, I obviously wouldn't have bumped the thread.

You called his combination of skills and mindset “untenable” - you did everything short of say he should be out of the league at a time when this entire board was at peak anti-Murray sentiment.

he’s not a perfect player, but he’s also not a finished product and is improving. The criticisms of him on ST pre season we’re “low IQ” “can’t run an offense” etc... and while he has his shortcomings- he demonstrably proved most of these complaints to be false. And I’m not saying he’s an elite playmaker or anything like that- but strictly based on the expectations we had pre season, dejounte ran past them and anyone actually discussing in good faith would recognize that.

YOU bumped the thread because you thought your conclusion was a hot take that aged well- but it didn’t. If your point at this moment is blow it all up, ok, fine. But your original take was that dejounte murray has an “untenable” combination of skills and low IQ on top of being “delusional” - you’re hilariously wrong and even more dumb for bumping the thread like it aged well.

[TD 21]

You called his combination of skills and mindset “untenable” - you did everything short of say he should be out of the league at a time when this entire board was at peak anti-Murray sentiment.

he’s not a perfect player, but he’s also not a finished product and is improving. The criticisms of him on ST pre season we’re “low IQ” “can’t run an offense” etc... and while he has his shortcomings- he demonstrably proved most of these complaints to be false. And I’m not saying he’s an elite playmaker or anything like that- but strictly based on the expectations we had pre season, dejounte ran past them and anyone actually discussing in good faith would recognize that.

YOU bumped the thread because you thought your conclusion was a hot take that aged well- but it didn’t. If your point at this moment is blow it all up, ok, fine. But your original take was that dejounte murray has an “untenable” combination of skills and low IQ on top of being “delusional” - you’re hilariously wrong and even more dumb for bumping the thread like it aged well.

They are in terms of driving winning. That doesn't preclude him from putting up empty calories counting stats on a bad team though, which seems to pacify the apologists. His only average-plus skill on offense, is the least valuable one: mid range pullups.

He'll be 25 in 4 months. The torn ACL was an obvious setback, but there's been no attempt to modernize his game. He's the same flawed player he always was, just a more refined version.

My takes have FWS (fine wine syndrome), you're just like the other brainwashed apologists, stuck in the past, lapping up out of context counting stats and unaware/unwilling to accept what wins in '21.

[rr2911]

I've always thought that Derrick White ran the offense better and more smoother than Murray. If the Spurs aren't going to develop Tre Jones or give the reins to Derrick White, maybe the Spurs look to trade for a veteran PG?

[timvp]

He'll be 25 in 4 months. The torn ACL was an obvious setback, but there's been no attempt to modernize his game.

I know that you're a brainwashed apologist when it comes to the value of counting stats and you're stuck in the past where only rates for major categories matter but this is just an out-and-out falsehood, my guy. Murray's three-point shooting rate is up 50% from last season and 500% from his second season in the league. To deny he's trending in the right direction would be impossible, even for someone like you who bows at the altar of his idols. There are other stats that we can point to but that alone disproves what I quoted.

Even ignoring the numbers, Murray's a guy who basically was forced to position himself in the dunker spot during his first two seasons because he wasn't able to do much else. These days, he's a legitimate ballhandler with ever-improving court vision and a low turnover rate by anyone's standards.

:lmao @ "no attempt to modernize his game"

[timvp]

There's also the case to be made that Murray least fits the team out of any of the White, Murray, Walker, Vassell, Johnson and even DeRozan group. Far from being a bright spot, the WAY Murray has played has done nothing to change that. The entire offense shifting to accommodate playing him and White together with any offensive player has led to a weird system that makes it hard to generate three-point looks. He's been healthier than Derrick, and that's really important, but that is more telling of Derrick's limitations than DeJounte's advantages. It's just really hard to imagine DJM giving up the ball so much that a star could actually have it while also having a more traditional playing style that generates good shots.

Ehhhhhh ... I understand the concerns regarding Murray; he can frustrate sometimes during this phase of his learning curve. But I think you're blowing it out of proportion, tbh. Murray's usage percentage is 23.5%, which ranks him ~60th in the NBA and lower than DeRozan and even Gay. Murray has the usage rate of like a second or even third option. Players around the same rate: Tim Hardaway Jr., Elfrid Payton, Dennis Schroder, Norman Powell. No one would point to one of those players as a reason why a star wouldn't/couldn't get enough touches. From my quick count, he's the 20th ranked point guard in usage percentage -- hardly the star-neuterer that you seem to be portraying.

If the Spurs got a star, finding enough touches would simply be a matter of removing DeRozan and Gay from the equation. That alone would free up enough touches, tbh.

I recognize that Murray isn't the easiest piece to fit when trying to complete a roster building puzzle. But he's not the impossible fit that some Spurs fans make him out to be, either. If he takes a few more leaps in terms of his three-point rate, learns to draw more fouls and continues to master pick-and-rolls, that'd take care of a lot of problems.

I'm not even sure he needs to completely abandon his two-point jumper game. Every successful team needs a player who can freelance and make something out of nothing. Murray being able to score off the dribble and when a play has been snuffed out is a useful skill. It's mostly just a matter of Murray better learning to pick his spots. I don't think it's a matter of him being selfish or being dumb or anything like that. He's just early in his development.

But, yeah, Murray has made great progress this year in a lot of areas. If he keeps improving, I think he definitely could be a key part of a good team. He'll always have weaknesses but that's true with every player. Even superduperstars have flaws if you get picky enough: Jokic defending the rim, Giannis shooting, Harden eating, Doncic perimeter defense, etc. Put the right star with Murray and it'd be seamless. The main issue right now is the "star" is DeRozan, who is basically the worst possible fit next to Murray because they have overlapping weaknesses.

[TD 21]

I know that you're a brainwashed apologist when it comes to the value of counting stats and you're stuck in the past where only rates for major categories matter but this is just an out-and-out falsehood, my guy. Murray's three-point shooting rate is up 50% from last season and 500% from his second season in the league. To deny he's trending in the right direction would be impossible, even for someone like you who bows at the altar of his idols. There are other stats that we can point to but that alone disproves what I quoted.

Even ignoring the numbers, Murray's a guy who basically was forced to position himself in the dunker spot during his first two seasons because he wasn't able to do much else. These days, he's a legitimate ballhandler with ever-improving court vision and a low turnover rate by anyone's standards.

:lmao @ "no attempt to modernize his game"

:lmao @ Still :cry over my delivery, attempting to resort to semantics and not being able to comprehend stats.

Murray's 3pAR: 19.8, 0.56, 17.4, 20.4. So other than the outlier, spent playing much of the time with another non 3-point shooter (Anderson) and around a post player, he's consistently hovered around in the same range, all of which are embarrassingly low for a non rim running center, in this era.

Here's his pathetic FTr: 25.9, 24.3, 17.9, 13.9.

For his career, a whopping 55% of his shots are in the midrange, including 60% this season.

Again, more refined, but boiled down: Same, old flawed player. Handle and vision have to do with his position, not era and of course they improved. They were disgraceful for a so called PG and are now within' sniffing distance of mediocre. Congratulations!

[rankingtear]

Sell high?

[jermaine]

Trade white & Keldon as a package. Keep Murray and tank for a high draft pick.

[dbestpro]

Trade Murray while his value is up before he starts to think he's World B. Free.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Sell high?

That's not the "Spurs way", my friend.

[dbestpro]

Trade Murray while his value is up before he starts to think he's World B. Free.

5/19. Too late.

[GAustex]

Lloyd Free would chuck em up

[RC_Drunkford]

not even Brian Wright would be this dumb

[james evans]

Trade white & Keldon as a package. Keep Murray and tank for a high draft pick.
here yall go with this draft pick shit. lol

1. there aint shit coming out this year worth tanking for
2. whomever popovich picks won't get into the lineup until 2023
3. see #2

[TheGreatYacht]

Why the fuck was this bumped when Fathead 2.0 is on the roster. White fanboys are in the MUD

[KingKev]

Why the fuck was this bumped when Fathead 2.0 is on the roster. White fanboys are in the MUD

Haha talk that talk. Some silent majority Texans up in this mufucka.

[Gibbz]

The DJ City Edition shirts dropped today:

https://www.nike.com/t/charlotte-hornets-city-edition-mens-jordan-nba-player-t-shirt-VV134w/DA7410-103

[Dejounte]

The DJ City Edition shirts dropped today:

https://www.nike.com/t/charlotte-hornets-city-edition-mens-jordan-nba-player-t-shirt-VV134w/DA7410-103

interesting they went with DJ. Sounds more and more like he’s a fixture on the team.

[Degoat]

I’m sure it’s not Spurs related but DJ just put a pretty angry IG story

[Sugus]

Sell high?

I'd wish. Dejounte would fetch a very juicy package right now, and is the final stoppage of the Spurs' bottoming out this season and the next. Get them picks... Do it, Wrong, do it.

[Dejounte]

I'd wish. Dejounte would fetch a very juicy package right now, and is the final stoppage of the Spurs' bottoming out this season and the next. Get them picks... Do it, Wrong, do it.

My guy, if Dejounte’s name was Lonnie, you’d be singing a different tune. Or if Lonnie was showing half what DJ is showing now, he’d be a “keeper”. Makes no sense brotha

[KingKev]

I'd wish. Dejounte would fetch a very juicy package right now, and is the final stoppage of the Spurs' bottoming out this season and the next. Get them picks... Do it, Wrong, do it.

Or find DJ some players. DJ probably wouldn't fetch much despite his insane numbers and is definitely outplaying his salary with exponential growth.

[talkspurs]

Or find DJ some players. DJ probably wouldn't fetch much despite his insane numbers and is definitely outplaying his salary with exponential growth.

something people dont think about his salary. He is putting up excellent numbers and a much lower then max salary. he also still has 2 years on the contract after this one. He is probably the best player per dollar especially if you exclude rookie deals.

[KingKev]

something people dont think about his salary. He is putting up excellent numbers and a much lower then max salary. he also still has 2 years on the contract after this one. He is probably the best player per dollar especially if you exclude rookie deals.

https://twitter.com/spurs/status/1461132171985444865

Agreed man! Meanwhile half of Spurs talk see him as an impediment to White and Murray’s growth.

[duncan2k5]

I’m sure it’s not Spurs related but DJ just put a pretty angry IG story

Pretty sure it's related to Young Dolph being killed when he went back to his home city

[KingKev]

Pretty sure it's related to Young Dolph being killed when he went back to his home city

RIP ��

[Sugus]

My guy, if Dejounte’s name was Lonnie, you’d be singing a different tune. Or if Lonnie was showing half what DJ is showing now, he’d be a “keeper”. Makes no sense brotha

What? No I wouldn't, and you know it.

Trading Lonnie right now makes no sense, his value is at an all-time low. On the contrary, Murray's numbers are inefficient and pumped up due to an offensive vacuum that he's filling with increased touches (last I checked, he was averaging something like 20 points... On 20 shots per game). Literally the perfect time to trade him, before the Spurs either acquire better talent that takes away touches from him, or he starts getting gameplanned for and has his numbers drop. I'd love for a trade deadline package, though I acknowledge it's not gonna happen.

It's funny that you're saying this to me, since you've been weirdly over-protective of Dejounte on this forum for some time now. I like Lonnie, and Poeltl too, and would like for both to stick on the team, but wouldn't hesitate to trade either for the right offer. Nobody on this roster is untouchable - not even Primo, and especially not Dejounte, no matter how much of a "leader" he might be.

[Dejounte]

What? No I wouldn't, and you know it.

Trading Lonnie right now makes no sense, his value is at an all-time low. On the contrary, Murray's numbers are inefficient and pumped up due to an offensive vacuum that he's filling with increased touches (last I checked, he was averaging something like 20 points... On 20 shots per game). Literally the perfect time to trade him, before the Spurs either acquire better talent that takes away touches from him, or he starts getting gameplanned for and has his numbers drop. I'd love for a trade deadline package, though I acknowledge it's not gonna happen.

It's funny that you're saying this to me, since you've been weirdly over-protective of Dejounte on this forum for some time now. I like Lonnie, and Poeltl too, and would like for both to stick on the team, but wouldn't hesitate to trade either for the right offer. Nobody on this roster is untouchable - not even Primo, and especially not Dejounte, no matter how much of a "leader" he might be.

Didn’t say to trade Lonnie when his value is low.

weirdly overprotective? Yeeah okay. You know, i actually like you dude and i wont get into this with you since you sound snappy with this post. To me, it sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics to dismiss what Murray’s doing right now and to trade the guy for simply trading the guy for a +1% greater chance at lottery odds. Makes no sense.

[Sugus]

Or find DJ some players. DJ probably wouldn't fetch much despite his insane numbers and is definitely outplaying his salary with exponential growth.

Why'd you say he wouldn't fetch much? He's a do-it-all PG and many teams in the league could use that, Philly being the prime example. His numbers are inflated due to the offensive vacuum on the team and inefficient, he's bound to come back to Earth sooner than later, and/or with more talent on the team (exponential growth? Where? :lol the dude is 25 and isn't putting up some kind of historic season, what are you talking about?). This is literally the "sell high" stage of him, at least from a Spurs POV (and ignoring the obvious fact that a trade-shy org like the Spurs won't consider this, sadly).

His contract being low is actually a selling point, moreso. The Spurs have no real need for "great value" contracts, having not a lot of money in the books and many expendable players; meanwhile, capspace-strapped contenders could definitely use his high production per dollar spent, and would probably pay a premium for it. The Suns, for example, are certainly thinking of a CP3 replacement to keep their playoff runs going into the future, whilst having to balance Booker, Ayton, etc's contracts.

Not nearly as crazy as you made it sound, brother.

[Sugus]

Didn’t say to trade Lonnie when his value is low.

weirdly overprotective? Yeeah okay. You know, i actually like you dude and i wont get into this with you since you sound snappy with this post. To me, it sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics to dismiss what Murray’s doing right now and to trade the guy for simply trading the guy for a +1% greater chance at lottery odds. Makes no sense.

Unless I understood you wrong, you said if DJ's name was Lonnie, I'd be singing a different tune, AKA not advocating for trading him; and I'm telling you, even though I like Lonnie, if he was putting up inefficient numbers on a tanking team, I'd be trying to sell high on him too (can I say that I also like DJ too? Like, where's this coming from? I've had his back, never called him IG baller or shit, and knew he'd come back better from the ACL; I just don't marry to any one player, especially on a team like the current Spurs).

Get into what, D? I'm not attacking you whatsoever, just your arguments. None of my posts here are "personal" in that regard, except when I'm bashing that retard M:lolnty. There's a difference, I'm not snappying you up lol. But I've definitely seen you "get into it" with other posters here regarding DJ, and it didn't surprise me that you quoted me on that lmao. I get it, I've got "my guys" too, we all do. But saying the Spurs should sell high on a player that's likely close to his ceiling, and putting up good numbers on a bad team and that could fool some FO into overpaying for him, there's no personal attacks there.

I'll ask you a different question: what exactly is Murray "doing right now"? I specifically mean, what is he doing right now that is so irreplaceable that you wouldn't even consider trading him? Rebounding guards are overrated, especially in the modern NBA. His shooting isn't really especially, made even more apparent when you consider how midrange-heavy his game is (we've already gone back and forth over how his deficiency shooting 3's affects his game, I won't get into that here). His efficiency isn't special, his shooting isn't special (not the kind of special that makes a player untouchable, I mean), his playmaking isn't special.

I'm not seeing the mental gymnastics, tbqh. And it's not just better lottery odds that you get for trading him (that's actually irrelevant, you can perfectly tank out a season with a player like DJ on the roster, simply sitting him in the 4th). Right now, DJ could net the Spurs two FRPs, a prospect, and who knows what else, from the many contenders and not-so-contenders through the league, Phoenix and Philly being two examples. So yeah, I don't get the over-protectiveness when there's a good case to be made for trading him, is all.

[Sugus]

Damn Dejounte (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=51342), you were right. Sugus (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54941) with the bad fucking takes. :lmao

You don't gotta tag me if you're quoting me, pal. Might wanna expand some more on these brilliant thoughts of yours? I garner from your post that you'd go trade Walker tomorrow or the day after...?

[KobesAchilles]

You don't gotta tag me if you're quoting me, pal. Might wanna expand some more on these brilliant thoughts of yours? I garner from your post that you'd go trade Walker tomorrow or the day after...?
Sugs you are dead on here. I was saying during the off-season that I hoped DJ was having the kind of year he is having so his value goes up and we can trade him away. The dude does a lot of things well but he jacks up a lot of midrange shots to get his 20. His 3 still sucks and he can’t play off ball at all.

The trouble is that he is by far our best player. But the time to sell on DJ is now.

[dbestpro]

Feel we will have to move on from White, Murray, Walker and maybe Johnson before this team starts to see an upward trajectory. These guys are the stopgap players to being good again. Could take another 3-5 years.

[Atl Spur]

Murray is not a point , he lacks vision/feel.

[C-Dub]

DJM misses a lot of players cutting to the basket for easy shot opportunities and doesn't make his self available on offense if he doesn't have the ball in his hands. He does have that stripted one bounce pass off of a pick and roll that he does getting some assist off of but that's about it unless he finds a player open for a 3 standing still and ready for the set shot. He still rebounds from teammates to get his stats higher. If you listen to most of his past interviews, he ALWAYS says "I" tell ____(insert any teammate name) just be you, etc. He always says that he's a pass 1st point gaurd to getting his teammates open shots. All of us fans watching the games know that's not true. He is the best player on the team right now but when the Spurs are contending again he will have to be at least the 3rd option and not the best player on the team. Love his defense though. All could be alright in about 2 to 3 years when Primo is the #1 option, Vassell the #2 and DJM the #3. Add in Jacob's improvements over that span along with Tre Jones being integrated more, Forbes off the team, at least 1 more lottery pick after this season and White coming off the bench as the 6th man. Spurs contending team in 2 to 3 years could look something like this:
DJM, T. Jones
Primo, White
Vassell, Wiescamp
2022 lottery pick PF, KJ
Jacob, Z. Collins

[offset formation]

DJM misses a lot of players cutting to the basket for easy shot opportunities and doesn't make his self available on offense if he doesn't have the ball in his hands. He does have that stripted one bounce pass off of a pick and roll that he does getting some assist off of but that's about it unless he finds a player open for a 3 standing still and ready for the set shot. He still rebounds from teammates to get his stats higher. If you listen to most of his past interviews, he ALWAYS says "I" tell ____(insert any teammate name) just be you, etc. He always says that he's a pass 1st point gaurd to getting his teammates open shots. All of us fans watching the games know that's not true. He is the best player on the team right now but when the Spurs are contending again he will have to be at least the 3rd option and not the best player on the team. Love his defense though. All could be alright in about 2 to 3 years when Primo is the #1 option, Vassell the #2 and DJM the #3. Add in Jacob's improvements over that span along with Tre Jones being integrated more, Forbes off the team, at least 1 more lottery pick after this season and White coming off the bench as the 6th man. Spurs contending team in 2 to 3 years could look something like this:
DJM, T. Jones
Primo, White
Vassell, Wiescamp
2022 lottery pick PF, KJ
Jacob, Z. Collins

We need a center like Valanciunas or KAT or Ayton, and a PF stud in the draft. Do that with Primo and his developmental potential, Vassell, and Murray and you've got a playoff team capable of doing damage, assuming your bench is deep.

[SpurSpike]

While his trade value may be at an all time high I personally don't think trading our best young player on a good contract to be a smart move but it also depends on what we get in return. If its just picks then why trade a good prospect that is young and on a good contract for just the coin flip possibility of getting someone as good or better through the draft? If its for a legit all star that can immediately make us contenders then sure, but that isn't happening. If its to trade him for Simmons....HELL NO!!!!!!!!!

Murray may be stat stuffing on a bad team but he brings more to the team than just stat stuffing, his defense is great and will always be a valuable asset no matter how good the team is. He is also the longest tenured Spur at the moment and he is the last player on the team who has played with all of our great HOF players. That experience is valuable and hopefully he's been shown how to be an effective leader. DJM has also displayed that he gets better every year which is a testament to his dedication. You want guys like that on your team!

[BacktoBasics]

This is where the dumbfucks on this forum desperately try to trade a guy having a career year for a late first round pick that has a 35% chance of becoming a role player. Because the tards here think its addition by subtraction and every late first rounder is a star in the making until he hits court and reality sets in.

I wouldn't trade Murray for a lottery pick outside of the top 3 right now. We're one (non black hole DDR clone) semi-star away from being in the playoffs.

[BacktoBasics]

While his trade value may be at an all time high I personally don't think trading our best young player on a good contract to be a smart move but it also depends on what we get in return. If its just picks then why trade a good prospect that is young and on a good contract for just the coin flip possibility of getting someone as good or better through the draft? If its for a legit all star that can immediately make us contenders then sure, but that isn't happening. If its to trade him for Simmons....HELL NO!!!!!!!!!

Murray may be stat stuffing on a bad team but he brings more to the team than just stat stuffing, his defense is great and will always be a valuable asset no matter how good the team is. He is also the longest tenured Spur at the moment and he is the last player on the team who has played with all of our great HOF players. That experience is valuable and hopefully he's been shown how to be an effective leader. DJM has also displayed that he gets better every year which is a testament to his dedication. You want guys like that on your team!

This is a good take. You're not going to return a game changer. This season from DJ has more value if you can sign a few better players around him next offseason and maybe a solid somewhat NBA ready draft pick. His confidence will be up and a defensive minded guard who has found himself offensively isn't exactly an easy thing to replace.

[RC_Drunkford]

DJ is the one guy you don’t trade. Smh at these bad takes in this thread. Y’all wanna tank for another 10 years?

[TDomination]

Feel we will have to move on from White, Murray, Walker and maybe Johnson before this team starts to see an upward trajectory. These guys are the stopgap players to being good again. Could take another 3-5 years.
I don't believe this at all. they just lack a superstar.

I think all the players you mentioned would be fantastic role players on a team with 2 solid stars.
Lets just say we had a prime Kawhi and an aging aldridge.

Murray - PG
Vassel - SG
Kawhi - SF
Johnson - PF
Aldridge - C

Bench:
White
Walker
McDermott
Poeltl

that would be a solid team. of course having a prime non injured Kawhi makes all the difference in the world. But these guys would i'm sure do very well in their supportive role.
right now, there is no go to guy. there is no star. so everyone is trying to "be that main guy"

honestly i think if Pop would just say that they are going to center their offense around "x" player, it may actually help the team just to find their role.

so my point is, we can keep these guys and hope we get super lucky and draft our next star. cause we sure aren't gonna be able to trade for him.

[TDomination]

This is where the dumbfucks on this forum desperately try to trade a guy having a career year for a late first round pick that has a 35% chance of becoming a role player. Because the tards here think its addition by subtraction and every late first rounder is a star in the making until he hits court and reality sets in.

I wouldn't trade Murray for a lottery pick outside of the top 3 right now. We're one (non black hole DDR clone) semi-star away from being in the playoffs.

wow i'm glad to see there are still people with brains on this forum

[dbestpro]

I don't believe this at all. they just lack a superstar.

I think all the players you mentioned would be fantastic role players on a team with 2 solid stars.
Lets just say we had a prime Kawhi and an aging aldridge.

Murray - PG
Vassel - SG
Kawhi - SF
Johnson - PF
Aldridge - C

Bench:
White
Walker
McDermott
Poeltl

that would be a solid team. of course having a prime non injured Kawhi makes all the difference in the world. But these guys would i'm sure do very well in their supportive role.
right now, there is no go to guy. there is no star. so everyone is trying to "be that main guy"

honestly i think if Pop would just say that they are going to center their offense around "x" player, it may actually help the team just to find their role.

so my point is, we can keep these guys and hope we get super lucky and draft our next star. cause we sure aren't gonna be able to trade for him.

Role players = stopgap players. You agree and don't even know you agree.

[John B]

Tre Jones is actually a better PG than DJ, if DJ were to get traded.

I think Tre has the potential to be a very good PG, albeit smaller. But that didn’t deter TP. Tre has the same burst of speed and deceptive athleticism. TP didn’t have the jump shot when he first started, but he had the spin moves and tear drops. I think the Spurs should focus on getting more minutes to Tre, instead of Forbes, and develop him as much as Spurs future starting PG.

[The Truth #6]

Last year I was open to trading DJ. But not at this exact moment. For me, I assumed White was actually better. That’s obviously no longer the case. And we haven’t seen enough of Tre to know if he can take on a bigger role.

DJ is definitely looking to get other players involved now, which was a tectonic shift. I didn’t think he would ever change. And most importantly, his drive and motivation is off the charts. DJ, Yak, and Vassel are the keepers so far. Keldon seems more like a potential trade target, but I like his vibe so I see no reason to get rid of him.

That’s my half-baked take. Go Spurs. Fuck Kawhi.

[TDomination]

Role players = stopgap players. You agree and don't even know you agree.

i guess if stopgap players = role players then we agree

but with what i don't agree is that we need to move on from them in order for this team to get better.

obviously we can't keep everyone but if these guys were on the roster along with 2 star players, they would be a real strong team imo. I believe we just lack the star player that every contender needs.

White - off the bench PG would be great IMO
Walker - off the bench SG is his role. Very inconsistent but can have great nights.
Johnson - I think he can be a starter if he's put in the Bruce Bowen role. Just focus on the corner 3 or the 3 ball period. Don't worry about driving at the moment. He tries to do too much too often.

And then there's Murray.
I love Murray, i think he's turned himself into a really really good player. I love his length, his work ethic and his love for the game. And I want him to stay a spur for life.

What I don't love are his handles or his decision making on fast breaks.
I feel like his decision making can and will improve. But his handles are likely to stay at the level they are at. I'm pretty sure he has worked on them extensively throughout his life but there is too much hitting the ball off of his own foot, too many deflections, too many unforced turnovers.
He's not horrible or anything but if we are looking to build a championship team, i believe we would need another player to be the main ball distributor in my opinion. And there in lies the problem since he's a PG.
Him being next to Primo could work since it seems like Primo has good handles from what I've seen.

[Sugus]

More about the weird DM hate. :lol

You've gone full STard if you think what I said is anywhere near "hate", lmfao. Criticisms of a player's game have never been "hate" and never will be. Hateful implies unjust judgement, personal attacks, things I've never once done - you can cite the "hate" you're seeing if you want, because there isn't any.

I guess asking posters to distinguish between criticism and "hate" is too much to ask for these days.

[jjspur]

Tre Jones didn't have the best first year but after summer league, I was impressed. Although he is smaller he does the makings of a pretty good pg.

[TDomination]

Tre Jones is actually a better PG than DJ, if DJ were to get traded.

I think Tre has the potential to be a very good PG, albeit smaller. But that didn’t deter TP. Tre has the same burst of speed and deceptive athleticism. TP didn’t have the jump shot when he first started, but he had the spin moves and tear drops. I think the Spurs should focus on getting more minutes to Tre, instead of Forbes, and develop him as much as Spurs future starting PG.

I like Tre too. He seems good and would love for him to get more minutes but not at the expense of Murray though. Perhaps instead of White idk.

I still like White but man i'm just disappointed like i'm sure most spurs fans are in him. sucks.

[Sugus]

Sugs you are dead on here. I was saying during the off-season that I hoped DJ was having the kind of year he is having so his value goes up and we can trade him away. The dude does a lot of things well but he jacks up a lot of midrange shots to get his 20. His 3 still sucks and he can’t play off ball at all.

The trouble is that he is by far our best player. But the time to sell on DJ is now.

Yep, I too have been on the wagon for some time now. It's hilarious reading posters taking any criticism whatsoever of DJ's game as "hate", yet turning around and bashing other players up and down for things that are beyond their control or attacking them personally (cough cough Forbes, Jakob, etc). I never would've imagined, after all the actual hate, insults, "IG Baller" comments and stuff Dejounte got on here during his ACL rehab seasons, that he'd suddenly become ST's golden child, but here we are I guess.

Yeah, him being the Spurs' best player and leader, combined with the Spurs FO's conservative approach to roster building/shakeup, makes a trade unlikely if not impossible. But it's absolutely the right time. I don't know where people are getting this "exponential growth" BS either.

[Sugus]

This is where the dumbfucks on this forum desperately try to trade a guy having a career year for a late first round pick that has a 35% chance of becoming a role player. Because the tards here think its addition by subtraction and every late first rounder is a star in the making until he hits court and reality sets in.

I wouldn't trade Murray for a lottery pick outside of the top 3 right now. We're one (non black hole DDR clone) semi-star away from being in the playoffs.

Lmao. Either Dejounte is playing so well that he's ""untradeable"", or he's playing bad enough to net a "late first round pick" only. They're mutually exclusive. Of course, the former is true, and a package centered around DJ could net the Spurs upwards of two quality FRPs, maybe a good prospect if the deal's good enough. Not to mention, DJ was a 29th pick; getting more, and higher quality/position, picks than were used to get him is a perfect ROI.

What's with the weird ST holdout regarding getting picks for players? Dejounte isn't some All-NBA talent that's a franchise building block. He's a very hardworking player, but there's a lot of those in the league - and for all the progress DJ has made, there's simply players with talent levels exponentially higher, coming out the womb with better offensive/defensive skillsets than Dejounte could ever hope for. It's just the reality of basketball.

I guess on a team like the current Spurs roster, people gotta grab onto whatever they can. I'm only sad that it's not Jakob people get so defensive about... I'd be having better discussions, at the least :lol

[The Truth #6]

Now, I’m not opposed to trading DJ absolutely, but it would have to be in a certain context where his absence either is replaced by a more useful player or his absence creates the opportunity for a younger player to get an expanded role.

Anyway, this all theoretical. He isn’t going anywhere unless he decides to leave.

[Jsmythe]

Lmao. Either Dejounte is playing so well that he's ""untradeable"", or he's playing bad enough to net a "late first round pick" only. They're mutually exclusive. Of course, the former is true, and a package centered around DJ could net the Spurs upwards of two quality FRPs, maybe a good prospect if the deal's good enough. Not to mention, DJ was a 29th pick; getting more, and higher quality/position, picks than were used to get him is a perfect ROI.

What's with the weird ST holdout regarding getting picks for players? Dejounte isn't some All-NBA talent that's a franchise building block. He's a very hardworking player, but there's a lot of those in the league - and for all the progress DJ has made, there's simply players with talent levels exponentially higher, coming out the womb with better offensive/defensive skillsets than Dejounte could ever hope for. It's just the reality of basketball.

I guess on a team like the current Spurs roster, people gotta grab onto whatever they can. I'm only sad that it's not Jakob people get so defensive about... I'd be having better discussions, at the least :lol

I disagree with "DJ was a 29th pick, so trading him for a higher position pick in a trade is good ROI". The problem is that the draft is a crapshoot, and even if you get a #10 pick from trading him (let's say), odds are that the player you end up picking will be worse (just look at recent drafts: Cam Reddish, Jalen Smith, Ziaire Williams). And even if you manage to find someone better than DJ in the draft, it's not a sure thing to be able to keep that person long term (Anthony Davis, Ben Simmons, etc). Also, the Spurs front office has been making questionable draft picks recently (Samanic/Primo, although Primo is looking like a good gamble right now). If you're going to trade DJ, it should be for another player and not some draft pick, unless the draft pick is very high. But teams with very high draft picks probably don't want or need someone like DJ.

Edit: By the way, I have nothing against Primo. I just get the feeling that even if the Spurs had the #1 pick, they would have picked him. The front office just seem to get locked in to one favorite player and ignore everyone else.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Depends on what you could get. Murray is exceeding expectations, IMO. He'll likely never be a superstar, but with the right cast around him he could be a significant contributor. He could be a Sean Elliott impact type of player.

[TDomination]

Depends on what you could get. Murray is exceeding expectations, IMO. He'll likely never be a superstar, but with the right cast around him he could be a significant contributor. He could be a Sean Elliott impact type of player.

agreed 100%

[mo7888]

Sugs you are dead on here. I was saying during the off-season that I hoped DJ was having the kind of year he is having so his value goes up and we can trade him away. The dude does a lot of things well but he jacks up a lot of midrange shots to get his 20. His 3 still sucks and he can’t play off ball at all.

The trouble is that he is by far our best player. But the time to sell on DJ is now.

I'm with you guys on DJ and if I'm being honest nobody on this team should be off limits but, my question regarding DJ is...trade him for what? What would he realistically fetch either by himself or packaged with another player?

[Leetonidas]

Id be kind of annoyed if they traded Murray this season simply because his was the only Fiesta jersey I could snag this year :lol

[Dverde]

I feel like DJ ain’t feeling this rebuild. He looks pissed off losing games. Wouldn’t be shocked if he wants out after he gets his “career year” playing on a bad team. Not sure I’d be upset at him as long as he was open and not being a diva about it.

[KobesAchilles]

I'm with you guys on DJ and if I'm being honest nobody on this team should be off limits but, my question regarding DJ is...trade him for what? What would he realistically fetch either by himself or packaged with another player?
Tbh I’m hoping to trade him for Brown. At first I wanted Simmons for Murray but fuck Simmons. I don’t want a quitter. Not again. So my unrealistic dream is Brown from the Celtics. I feel like Boston is close to making a huge trade.

[BacktoBasics]

Only ST would want to trade a guy who’s punched way above his draft position on a reasonably good contract to roll the dice on an unknown draft pick.

[exstatic]

He shouldn’t be traded, but he’s not really a lead guard. More of a secondary creator. Both White and Jones are better distributors.

[Dejounte]

Why'd you say he wouldn't fetch much? He's a do-it-all PG and many teams in the league could use that, Philly being the prime example. His numbers are inflated due to the offensive vacuum on the team and inefficient, he's bound to come back to Earth sooner than later, and/or with more talent on the team (exponential growth? Where? :lol the dude is 25 and isn't putting up some kind of historic season, what are you talking about?). This is literally the "sell high" stage of him, at least from a Spurs POV (and ignoring the obvious fact that a trade-shy org like the Spurs won't consider this, sadly).

Sugus, no offense but this reeks of ignorance

Before you say "what are you talking about", at least recall the fact that you said you haven't really been keeping up with this season otherwise you wouldn't spout nonsense like this.

https://twitter.com/nbastats/status/1453210165524713475
https://twitter.com/spurs/status/1461132171985444865

[Dejounte]

Unless I understood you wrong, you said if DJ's name was Lonnie, I'd be singing a different tune, AKA not advocating for trading him; and I'm telling you, even though I like Lonnie, if he was putting up inefficient numbers on a tanking team, I'd be trying to sell high on him too (can I say that I also like DJ too? Like, where's this coming from? I've had his back, never called him IG baller or shit, and knew he'd come back better from the ACL; I just don't marry to any one player, especially on a team like the current Spurs).


Yes, and I've never been married to any player either. I was on the hate train on DJ for at least a full year when it was justified because he wasn't showing any improvement. If there was a post search function, you'd easily find it. But here's the difference: I can easily give that up when a player starts to deserve recognition and I don't keep raising the bar for a player to standards he will never meet and pretend said player ever had a chance in proving to me that he should remain a Spur.



But saying the Spurs should sell high on a player that's likely close to his ceiling, and putting up good numbers on a bad team and that could fool some FO into overpaying for him, there's no personal attacks there.

Just so what? The Spurs could get an imaginary package of two first round picks and cross our fingers that they buy-in like DJ already has? You're so in a rush to repeat a cycle that's completely unnecessary. There's not much of an advantage you think there is with trading DJ. It won't move the Spurs' draft position, if at all. Let's look at the main reason why you think this is a good plan: You think players are like trading cards and you can switch them out whenever you desire. The problem is, it doesn't work that way-- you're not trading just the player and his stats, you're trading away the player the entire organization has invested their time (that they can never get back) pouring their knowledge and wisdom into and probably being a part of DJ's life and his emotional growth, because everyone knows DJ was some sort of a problem child since he walked through those doors. He is much matured now and I can't imagine what kind of life things they've experienced behind closed doors. You're not just giving up the player, you're giving up the HUMAN and that's what has always separated the Spurs from any other organization. Dejounte has become an integral part of the Spurs' identity and I bet you they couldn't be any more proud of him. You say he's "already 25" but Pop has made remarks of the leadership growth he has had this year. Jrue Holiday is a good example of growth in their late 20's. Jrue has never been a model of efficiency, but I would take him as a building block over many other PG's 10 times out of 10.




I'll ask you a different question: what exactly is Murray "doing right now"? I specifically mean, what is he doing right now that is so irreplaceable that you wouldn't even consider trading him? Rebounding guards are overrated, especially in the modern NBA. His shooting isn't really especially, made even more apparent when you consider how midrange-heavy his game is (we've already gone back and forth over how his deficiency shooting 3's affects his game, I won't get into that here). His efficiency isn't special, his shooting isn't special (not the kind of special that makes a player untouchable, I mean), his playmaking isn't special.

Again, I think because you haven't watched many games, it leads to blatantly false statements such as this one. And even if you did, you'd still have the goggles you have on that doesn't enable you to assess DJ's play (and improvement) accurately.



Right now, DJ could net the Spurs two FRPs, a prospect, and who knows what else, from the many contenders and not-so-contenders through the league, Phoenix and Philly being two examples. So yeah, I don't get the over-protectiveness when there's a good case to be made for trading him, is all.

There's no "right now, DJ could net the Spurs two FRPs, a prospect, and who knows what else" when it is nowhere close to being truth. That is unless you're looking at other message boards and reading what dumb fans are saying they'd offer for Dejounte. Totally asinine to write that statement as if it's factual.

[Dejounte]

I disagree with "DJ was a 29th pick, so trading him for a higher position pick in a trade is good ROI". The problem is that the draft is a crapshoot, and even if you get a #10 pick from trading him (let's say), odds are that the player you end up picking will be worse (just look at recent drafts: Cam Reddish, Jalen Smith, Ziaire Williams). And even if you manage to find someone better than DJ in the draft, it's not a sure thing to be able to keep that person long term (Anthony Davis, Ben Simmons, etc). Also, the Spurs front office has been making questionable draft picks recently (Samanic/Primo, although Primo is looking like a good gamble right now). If you're going to trade DJ, it should be for another player and not some draft pick, unless the draft pick is very high. But teams with very high draft picks probably don't want or need someone like DJ.

Edit: By the way, I have nothing against Primo. I just get the feeling that even if the Spurs had the #1 pick, they would have picked him. The front office just seem to get locked in to one favorite player and ignore everyone else.

This is exactly correct. It is wishful thinking to say that mid-late FRP's are a good ROI because it completely ignores so many other things. People want the Spurs to pick a direction and build towards something, trading away the one player that's FINALLY seen worthwhile growth is not building towards anything. It's taking ten steps backwards.

[Ocotillo]

Draft is a crap shoot even for good drafting teams. Lonnie and Sandwich were decent draft positions but at this point, looks like late round Murray and even White have performed better.

[Sugus]

I disagree with "DJ was a 29th pick, so trading him for a higher position pick in a trade is good ROI".

You can disagree with the perspective; it doesn't make it any less true, tbh. Objectively (maybe Morey-vely?), getting even two late lottery picks for a player picked at #29 is a great ROI. You as a team simply can't keep every player you draft, and tough choices are made every year regarding who's kept, who's cut, and who's promising but has to go for the betterment of the team. Look at it this way: if there was no promise, no potential, no I-wanna-keep-him feeling over a player, why would another team want them? You gotta sell high sometimes and hope you're selling at the peak, and not selling Bitcoin in '15, if you know what I mean.


The problem is that the draft is a crapshoot, and even if you get a #10 pick from trading him (let's say), odds are that the player you end up picking will be worse (just look at recent drafts: Cam Reddish, Jalen Smith, Ziaire Williams).

What? No they aren't lmao, what are you talking about? Other teams making bad draft choices has literally no correlation to the Spurs' own pickings and draft probabilities. The correlation is actually the opposite of what you're describing; given the Spurs had such prowess to make a great pick in selecting DJ with a #29th pick, it's perfectly fair to assume they can make even better selections, or at least consistently solid/outperforming ones, given an even higher draft pick. I perfectly know the draft is uncertain, but that's a given with anything regarding development of players, and I very much trust the Spurs' drafting department here.


And even if you manage to find someone better than DJ in the draft, it's not a sure thing to be able to keep that person long term (Anthony Davis, Ben Simmons, etc). Also, the Spurs front office has been making questionable draft picks recently (Samanic/Primo, although Primo is looking like a good gamble right now). If you're going to trade DJ, it should be for another player and not some draft pick, unless the draft pick is very high. But teams with very high draft picks probably don't want or need someone like DJ.

Edit: By the way, I have nothing against Primo. I just get the feeling that even if the Spurs had the #1 pick, they would have picked him. The front office just seem to get locked in to one favorite player and ignore everyone else.

Uh, you can trade DJ for a pick and a player, you know that, right? I see where you're coming from though. At the end of the day, I guess it depends on how high you are on Dejounte - if you feel like he has "many levels" of untapped potential, then yeah, selling off just to get an uncertain draft pick(s) doesn't sound like a good plan. If, like me, however, you think he's close to his ceiling, and you don't think his ceiling is what the team needs, it's suddenly not such a crazy idea.

And at the end of the day, that's all I was arguing, because for some reason the pendulum's swung the other way, and where you got crazy looks two years ago for saying Dejounte would be a great player, now you get the crazy looks for saying he might not be the All-NBA talent the team needs to build around, and would be better served in a lesser role around a more complete and talented roster.

Just how the times change, I guess...

[Sugus]

Sugus, no offense but this reeks of ignorance

Before you say "what are you talking about", at least recall the fact that you said you haven't really been keeping up with this season otherwise you wouldn't spout nonsense like this.

https://twitter.com/nbastats/status/1453210165524713475
https://twitter.com/spurs/status/1461132171985444865

Funny you say that, because despite missing like the last 8 Spurs games besides the one agains Minny, I was aware of both of those stats. I sure know I'm not placing as much importance on them as you seem to do... They're basic counting stats "accolades", offensive ones at that, in the most offensively-tilted NBA that has ever existed to date. Offensive boards are easier to get than ever before, with long rebounds off volume 3pt shooting (as opposed to yesteryear's on average shorter rebounds due to a focus on shorter jumpshots) and no clogged paint filled with heavy 7ft players boxing DJ's skinny ass back to half-court, TBH; not to mention the overinflated value of rebounds for guards as a statistic - look no further than Westbrook for explanations there. The assists are nice to see, though.

So no, DJ having a Westbrook-lite, counting-stats-and-triple-dubs galore season isn't what I call a "historic" season, any more than this season might be "historic" if the Spurs miss more games than they've done in the last 15 years. You get my point (even if you don't agree) by now, I guess.

[Sugus]

Yes, and I've never been married to any player either. I was on the hate train on DJ for at least a full year when it was justified because he wasn't showing any improvement. If there was a post search function, you'd easily find it. But here's the difference: I can easily give that up when a player starts to deserve recognition and I don't keep raising the bar for a player to standards he will never meet and pretend said player ever had a chance in proving to me that he should remain a Spur.

Sigh, this is turning into a flame war, exactly where I didn't want it to go. What's with the jab, the "difference"? What bar exactly am I raising? I've been making the same critiques re: Murray's game than I've been for the past few years, and he's still bad at the things I criticized him for. How do you know he'll never meet them, if he's on path to such hyperbolic growth? My bar has always had to do with what I consider a championship-calibre PG in the modern NBA, and I still don't see the way Murray plays as championship-calibre or close to it, sorry to say. I don't know what about this triggers so much in you.



Just so what? The Spurs could get an imaginary package of two first round picks and cross our fingers that they buy-in like DJ already has? You're so in a rush to repeat a cycle that's completely unnecessary. There's not much of an advantage you think there is with trading DJ. It won't move the Spurs' draft position, if at all. Let's look at the main reason why you think this is a good plan: You think players are like trading cards and you can switch them out whenever you desire. The problem is, it doesn't work that way-- you're not trading just the player and his stats, you're trading away the player the entire organization has invested their time (that they can never get back) pouring their knowledge and wisdom into and probably being a part of DJ's life and his emotional growth, because everyone knows DJ was some sort of a problem child since he walked through those doors. He is much matured now and I can't imagine what kind of life things they've experienced behind closed doors. You're not just giving up the player, you're giving up the HUMAN and that's what has always separated the Spurs from any other organization. Dejounte has become an integral part of the Spurs' identity and I bet you they couldn't be any more proud of him. You say he's "already 25" but Pop has made remarks of the leadership growth he has had this year. Jrue Holiday is a good example of growth in their late 20's. Jrue has never been a model of efficiency, but I would take him as a building block over many other PG's 10 times out of 10.

Ooof, ok, you've gone full Pop here, man. "You're not just giving up the player, you're giving up the HUMAN"? Seriously? :lmao

Players are traded every single year, by every single team, and it's (almost) never personal. Yes, the Spurs have invested time in developing Murray, which has caused him to grow from a player that was almost out of the first round when the Spurs picked him up, to an above-average NBA starting guard. That's far from a marriage proposal... The Spurs aren't doing "wrong" by DJ if they trade him, it's just the name of the game and he knows it, everyone does. Why are you getting butthurt about this? :lmao at looking at DJ's "emotional growth" as something that should prevent the FO from dealing him... and "Let's look at the main reason why you think this is a good plan: You think players are like trading cards and you can switch them out whenever you desire." - what? I never said that, don't think that, and won't even engage that stupid line of thinking, as it's so obviously a veiled attack. Do better, D. You can.

Regarding the rest - he can grow as a leader all he wants, and it won't be enough (again, IMO, I don't know or care what the FO thinks of him). And Jrue is a terrible example to use, a player developing in his late 20's isn't a "building block" that a tanking team should use for their own, he's exactly the kind of player that's dealt away for assets that are actually within the team's timeline, unless he's CP3-levels of valuable as a teaching vet, which DJ isn't.



Again, I think because you haven't watched many games, it leads to blatantly false statements such as this one. And even if you did, you'd still have the goggles you have on that doesn't enable you to assess DJ's play (and improvement) accurately.

Bruh I've been watching DJ for what, three, four years now? And missed 7-8 games of the start of the season? What's this not-watching BS about? I know exactly what kinda player he is, and having watched his latest game against Minny, I saw absolutely nothing that I wasn't expecting already. Can you explain exactly how his playmaking has improved to "can't trade him" levels? I still see mechanical passes, tunnel vision when attacking the rim (especially in transition), an unability to get the rest of the team involved unless it's the basic drive&kick.

I feel like, if his playmaking was as special as you want it to be, you'd have a much better case to be made for it, instead of having to retort to the "you don't watch so you wouldn't know" narrative that's so obviously untrue. I'm NOT comparing them, but take Doncic for example: you don't gotta write paragraphs on how his playmaking is special - you watch any one game, and it pops out of the screen. Or highlights, whatever. It's extra-ordinary, where DJ's passes so often are nothing more than ordinary. That is "do not trade" special to me (and no, not an impossible bar, it's an example).


There's no "right now, DJ could net the Spurs two FRPs, a prospect, and who knows what else" when it is nowhere close to being truth. That is unless you're looking at other message boards and reading what dumb fans are saying they'd offer for Dejounte. Totally asinine to write that statement as if it's factual.

:lol what's asinine is thinking this is a fair line of thinking. So thinking DJ, who to you is untradeable, could fetch two FRPs is "nowhere close to being truth"? I said the same to another poster - you can't have it both way. Either he's playing well enough that he'd fetch at least two assets out of another team, or he's playing bad enough not to fetch them, so why's he so irreplaceable? Lmao... It's binary.

And lastly, how precisely could I gauge the value of a player to the rest of the league, then? Seems like watching him with my own eyes isn't enough, and you even say that looking at other fans' opinions isn't enough either (since they're so dumb!). Do I have to be on the GM's Zoom calls listening in on their trade proposals just to know? Phone Adam Silver personally and ask him? Maybe throw a coin in a well and see what happens... :lol

[Sugus]

Tbh I’m hoping to trade him for Brown. At first I wanted Simmons for Murray but fuck Simmons. I don’t want a quitter. Not again. So my unrealistic dream is Brown from the Celtics. I feel like Boston is close to making a huge trade.

This is actually a great trade target, BTW. Spurs could make great use of a smart, big, good defensive and playmaking wing like Brown, it's a much harder niche to fill than shoot-first PG. And Boston could absolutely use a floor general, playmaker, that doesn't lose them a step on defense while taking the ball away from Tatum so he can learn to play some damn off-ball action for once.

Though I don't see Boston having DJ high on their target list. I garner it'd take a FRP from SanAn to even get them interested on a deal. But that could be a great team for us... Move White to the 1 and try to get him to his pre-Denver series level, pull Devin into the SL as the designated SG, Brown at 3, and well, Keldon at undersized 4 with Jak at 5. Defense at every position, shooting at most of them, a good balance of size but low on rebounding prowess. It'd be interesting for sure.

[Dejounte]

They're basic counting stats "accolades", offensive ones at that, in the most offensively-tilted NBA that has ever existed to date.

https://i.ibb.co/kxFT1bX/1st.png


Offensive boards are easier to get than ever before, with long rebounds off volume 3pt shooting (as opposed to yesteryear's on average shorter rebounds due to a focus on shorter jumpshots) and no clogged paint filled with heavy 7ft players boxing DJ's skinny ass back to half-court

https://i.ibb.co/4Mb7GbH/2.png


TBH; not to mention the overinflated value of rebounds for guards as a statistic - look no further than Westbrook for explanations there.

https://i.ibb.co/zSPsd2F/3.png


So no, DJ having a Westbrook-lite, counting-stats-and-triple-dubs galore season isn't what I call a "historic" season,

https://i.ibb.co/xfJT86Q/4.png

I commend you for getting through that obstacle course to arrive at your logic.

This reminds me of when Poeltl was having a hot start, averaging 20 and 10, and Poeltl-haters were still not satisfied saying things like, "I'd still trade him". And honestly, if Poeltl did go on to have a 20 and 10 season, it would still not change those people's minds.

The irony here is I've seen you defend Poeltl with all your might, yet those folks will still cling on anything to remain convinced that they're right even when you have presented a sound and reasonable argument. What's most unimpressive about people's stance sometimes, is that they are too rigid in their thinking and their viewpoint will never bend when challenged.

Now that the subject matter is about another player, I see you're on the opposite end of that spectrum this time.

"Empty stats" is such a crapshoot argument. You're so caught up in your logic that when I mentioned you've missed the games, you resort to running to the "fake numbers" game failing to see how uncompetitive the games would be if Dejounte has not played the level he has played. To me, the only thing "empty" is a person looking at stats and forming an opinion without any time spent or context to back it up.

[Dejounte]

Sugus TBH, it's nothing personal and it isn't a "flame war". This is what happens when folks are passionate about a team and IMO, we're keeping it entertaining for folks to read this site seeing as how no one really posts much anymore.

[Dejounte]

I know exactly what kinda player he is, and having watched his latest game against Minny, I saw absolutely nothing that I wasn't expecting already.

Bruh, of course you would refer to the Minny game to validate your point. Of course you would.

This sentence says so much about what kind of approach you have this to argument. "I know exactly what kinda player he is" - this right here is 100% proof that it's helpless for Murray to do anything impressive in your eyes. You know what kind of player he is, thus there's nothing to improve upon.

I'll make this short and sweet:

I never said Murray was untradeable. Only that he should be last in consideration to being traded. Is that counterintuitive to your logic of doing a wholesale trade of any Spurs players who have the highest value? Yes. I'll say this again: I see zero sense in giving up the one young asset this team has who has shown worthwhile improvement. There is no return for Murray that will give back an up-and-coming prospect who has any chance of reaching Murray's level right now. Murray has more value to the Spurs than to other teams.

I never said Murray was a franchise player right now. There's no delusion here thinking that he's having a MVP-caliber season. (you seem to be convinced that anyone who is pro-Murray believes this) Could he get there? My mind is open enough to believe there's a possibility. Others were saying there was no way he was better or could get become better than White. I have a saying, "never say never...". That opinion looks foolish right now.

[KobesAchilles]

This is actually a great trade target, BTW. Spurs could make great use of a smart, big, good defensive and playmaking wing like Brown, it's a much harder niche to fill than shoot-first PG. And Boston could absolutely use a floor general, playmaker, that doesn't lose them a step on defense while taking the ball away from Tatum so he can learn to play some damn off-ball action for once.

Though I don't see Boston having DJ high on their target list. I garner it'd take a FRP from SanAn to even get them interested on a deal. But that could be a great team for us... Move White to the 1 and try to get him to his pre-Denver series level, pull Devin into the SL as the designated SG, Brown at 3, and well, Keldon at undersized 4 with Jak at 5. Defense at every position, shooting at most of them, a good balance of size but low on rebounding prowess. It'd be interesting for sure.
If we get like the 10th pick then I would for sure trade Murray and our pick for Brown. Also according to some Celtic fans that I follow, they are very high in DJ. The dude is impressing people around the league tbh. I’m not really anti-Murray at this point either. But I’m at a point where we need some fixes and this conservative thinking (IMO) isn’t going to fix it. I’m not exactly sure we know how to draft SG anyways (and don’t bring up Ginobili people) so we might as well get a known commodity.
There is no easy way to fix this team. But we do have to sell high when the market presents itself and I think DJs time is now

[Dejounte]

Last post for this thread tonight (it's a general comment, and not directed at Sugus (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54941) ):

I'll never succumb to the "any change is good change" thinking many people are starting to subscribe to due to the Spurs having a losing season. It's a shallow mindset and one lacking of patience or creativity. The losing season is exposing players who should stay and who should go. You choose your direction based on that. You don't kick out the players who actually know how to compete. Those are the guys you go to war with.

Phew, it's been a while since I've gotten on a computer to post and not shitpost through my phone. :)

[KobesAchilles]

Last post for this thread tonight (it's a general comment, and not directed at Sugus (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54941) ):

I'll never succumb to the "any change is good change" thinking many people are starting to subscribe to due to the Spurs having a losing season. It's a shallow mindset and one lacking of patience or creativity. The losing season is exposing players who should stay and who should go. You choose your direction based on that. You don't kick out the players who actually know how to compete. Those are the guys you go to war with.

Phew, it's been a while since I've gotten on a computer to post and not shitpost through my phone. :)
I hate my phone too. Makes it a pain

That being said, I want Murray gone for basketball reasons as well. It’s disingenuous to say one losing season. It’s been 3 losing season and probably not going to end next year as well. This team needs a rehaul and a new approach. At what point do we make changes then? 5 losing years in a row? Is that enough patience? So after we lose again next year, is that when my patience should be thinning?

I believe in when you see a problem you try to fix it now instead of staving it off for later. Murray needs the ball in his hands to be effective. He isn’t good enough to be a #1. He can’t play off ball at all. He is still a shitty 3 point shooter and his running the offense still leaves a lot to be desired. He has improved on that though. Plus his dribbling is still iffy.

I said earlier that there is no fast fix for the Spurs. There is no Tim Duncan coming to save us. But this way of doing things isn’t working. I don’t think we have the right people in place in pretty much anywhere from owner to GM to coach to assistants to players. It’s a rough time for us but patience isn’t what is needed. A fire under the ass is what is needed. Everyone just got to damn comfortable

Like i said earlier though I would only trade Murray for Brown. And that’s probably not realistic but that’s my asking price. Murray, Thad and our 10th pick.

[Jsmythe]

You can disagree with the perspective; it doesn't make it any less true, tbh. Objectively (maybe Morey-vely?), getting even two late lottery picks for a player picked at #29 is a great ROI. You as a team simply can't keep every player you draft, and tough choices are made every year regarding who's kept, who's cut, and who's promising but has to go for the betterment of the team. Look at it this way: if there was no promise, no potential, no I-wanna-keep-him feeling over a player, why would another team want them? You gotta sell high sometimes and hope you're selling at the peak, and not selling Bitcoin in '15, if you know what I mean.

I guess I didn't make my point of view very clear. The fact that the Spurs drafted DJ at #29 and him playing like a lottery pick on a good contract is the great ROI already. Their developing DJ into a quality starter definitely was a good deal value-wise for a #29 draft pick.

Point #1: Trading him now for exactly what he's worth now doesn't give any higher or lower ROI than keeping him. You can only get a higher ROI at this point by trading him for more than he's worth. Whether a deal like that is out there is a matter of debate. It gets even more complicated when talking about trading for picks because picks are such a gamble, which brings up the next point.

Point #2: Since the draft is such a crapshoot, I feel like trading DJ for anything less than a #5 pick would not be worth it. If you look at the lottery picks every year, most of them don't pan out the way that teams hope they would. Let's take a look at the 2016 NBA draft (DJ's draft). Which of these top 10 picks in DJ's year would you trade DJ for straight up?

1. Ben Simmons - He's better than DJ but he's on a max contract.
2. Brandon Ingram - Same as Simmons, he's slightly better but he's on a 5 year $158 million contract.
3. Jaylen Brown - He's better on a decent contract so yes.
4. Dragan Bender - Out of the league
5. Kris Dunn - Out of the league
6. Buddy Hield - I don't think he's better than DJ, so no.
7. Jamal Murray - Again, better than DJ but on a max contract.
8. Marquese Chriss - Out of the league
9. Jakob Poeltl - I guess you can't trade with your own team
10. Thon Maker - Out of the league

So: 4 out of the league, 1 definitely no (Hield), 1 definitely yes (Brown), 3 better but on max contracts (Simmons, Ingram, J Murray), and 1 doesn't count (Poeltl). Which makes 4/9 better and 5/9 worse than DJ.

Some other examples: I remember a few years ago everyone was anticipating trading Aldridge for the #2 pick and possibly picking James Wiseman with that pick. And now James Wiseman is looking like a bust. Also, a lot of the Spurstalk draft favorites in the recent past have turned out to not be that great. I remember a lot of talk about people like Jalen Smith and Precious Achiuwa, for example. So the reality is that a lot of promising draft candidates will never turn out to be even as good as DJ is now.


What? No they aren't lmao, what are you talking about? Other teams making bad draft choices has literally no correlation to the Spurs' own pickings and draft probabilities. The correlation is actually the opposite of what you're describing; given the Spurs had such prowess to make a great pick in selecting DJ with a #29th pick, it's perfectly fair to assume they can make even better selections, or at least consistently solid/outperforming ones, given an even higher draft pick. I perfectly know the draft is uncertain, but that's a given with anything regarding development of players, and I very much trust the Spurs' drafting department here.

I don't believe the Spurs front office at this point in time is much better than other teams at making draft picks. Yes they do seem to make great late round picks, but their higher picks haven't been that great:

Lonnie Walker IV: Not performing to expectations
Luka Samanic: Cut
Devin Vassell: Looks promising. But the jury's still out on whether Haliburton or someone else (Tyrese Maxey?) would have been better picks.
Josh Primo: Also looks promising. I'm still disturbed by the feeling that the Spurs would have picked him with the #1 pick.

So assuming Primo pans out, the Spurs own track record with recent high picks is that they have a 50/50 success rate which isn't that great.


Uh, you can trade DJ for a pick and a player, you know that, right? I see where you're coming from though. At the end of the day, I guess it depends on how high you are on Dejounte - if you feel like he has "many levels" of untapped potential, then yeah, selling off just to get an uncertain draft pick(s) doesn't sound like a good plan. If, like me, however, you think he's close to his ceiling, and you don't think his ceiling is what the team needs, it's suddenly not such a crazy idea.

Sure, it would depend on the pick and the player of course. But I don't want to see this team turning a Daryl Morey team where players are traded willy nilly like cattle. It should be a difficult decision to trade someone that the team spent so much time developing and who was so loyal to the team, so it should only happen when a great opportunity arises (George Hill -> Kawhi Leonard is a good example). Just trading DJ for some other player + a pick to "improve value" seems pretty cold and I wouldn't do it personally.

[duncan2k5]

Trade a young player that has positive impact simply because he isn't perfect? Lol... Yeah ok... In that case every player ever y'all would want to trade

[slick'81]

Leave Dejounte alone:cry

[B1gduff]

Dejounte and even Jakob are the building blocks of the future, you can also add vassel and Keldon to the list.

Dejounte at the moment is on first options, but i can say he is a solid 2nd option, he defiently needs to improve his efficiencyto take that next step. But, one he starts going to the free throw line more, you could also see the efficency go up, and he could easily average 20ppg.

[mo7888]

I don't see the building blocks on this team that everyone else seems to see here. Vassell and Primo look like building blocks. Tre looks like he might make it into that category IF he can develop an outside shot (at least a TP midrange). DJ, DW, and Poeltl look like decent pieces that may or may not fit depending on what foundational pieces we can add and if they don't fit you move them for other pieces that fit better. KJ is so much of a tweener that he needs to really become a high level 3 pt shooter to fit and depending on how other GM's see him coming off Olympic gold he might have more value as a trade piece than as a player. LW...well...I'm not convinced he'll ever figure it out...

[Das Texan]

I don't believe the Spurs front office at this point in time is much better than other teams at making draft picks. Yes they do seem to make great late round picks, but their higher picks haven't been that great:

Lonnie Walker IV: Not performing to expectations
Luka Samanic: Cut
Devin Vassell: Looks promising. But the jury's still out on whether Haliburton or someone else (Tyrese Maxey?) would have been better picks.
Josh Primo: Also looks promising. I'm still disturbed by the feeling that the Spurs would have picked him with the #1 pick.

So assuming Primo pans out, the Spurs own track record with recent high picks is that they have a 50/50 success rate which isn't that great.





I wouldnt exactly call picks 18 and 19 as high picks, I mean when the Spurs were contending for titles year in and year out, thats high but in terms of regular NBA teams, I wouldnt consider any non lottery pick as 'high' tbh.

[Jsmythe]

I wouldnt exactly call picks 18 and 19 as high picks, I mean when the Spurs were contending for titles year in and year out, thats high but in terms of regular NBA teams, I wouldnt consider any non lottery pick as 'high' tbh.

Sure but those 2 have underperformed their draft slot, and were the first top 20 picks in a while. And it sort of reinforces my point about there not being much evidence regarding very high picks. The Spurs haven't had a top 10 pick in forever (Duncan?) so I don't think people should automatically assume that they have some magic evaluation powers when it comes to the top end of the draft. And even if they do, they can only pick from whomever's available at the slot they get.

So for example, let's suppose the Spurs had the #5 pick last year. They could have ended up with one of:

Jalen Suggs
Josh Giddey
Jonathan Kuminga
Franz Wagner
Davion Mitchell
Ziaire Williams
James Bouknight
Josh Primo

I'm not sure that any of these guys are the future all-star that will get the Spurs back in championship contention. Even if they managed to pick the best one (which could be Primo), a weak draft year might mean that none of these guys will be future all-stars. It's hard to say right now, and it's also possible that someone the Spurs passed on (Sengun, Duarte, Moody, etc) could end up being the best of the bunch.

[MultiTroll]

Some other examples: I remember a few years ago everyone was anticipating trading Aldridge for the #2 pick and possibly picking James Wiseman with that pick. And now James Wiseman is looking like a bust.
Was looking very good as a rookie before injury and now on path to recover. Bust?

Muh Touches Softridge for Wiseman would have been a wise move.
Holding on to LMA and then buying him out was pathetic and continued uber fail by PATFO.

[EasyMoney]

Was looking very good as a rookie before injury and now on path to recover. Bust?

Muh Touches Softridge for Wiseman would have been a wise move.
Holding on to LMA and then buying him out was pathetic and continued uber fail by PATFO.


Wise move? Sure, if you're the spurs. The warriors are glad they never touched that trade.

[tbdog]

Was looking very good as a rookie before injury and now on path to recover. Bust?

Muh Touches Softridge for Wiseman would have been a wise move.
Holding on to LMA and then buying him out was pathetic and continued uber fail by PATFO.

No. Wiseman can't play in that heavy screen and motion Kerr's offense. Kerr had not adjusted his style for the roster and now they have a roster for his style again. Wiseman is a simple big and would do well in pick n roll style offense like the suns or the now spurs. I wouldn't be surprised if warriors ask for Poeltl, who suits the warriors perfectly. And they probably just attached Forbes in that deal.

[Jsmythe]

Was looking very good as a rookie before injury and now on path to recover. Bust?

From what I remember, he was their "Bryn Forbes", i.e. terrible on defense and a net negative whenever he played. But since he was a rookie it's not fair to label him a bust just yet. Let's just say he hasn't lived up to the amount of hype he was given.

[BatManu20]

Bump.

[TD 21]

I didn't want to rain on the parade yesterday and I'll admit under no circumstances did I think (and if they're being honest, most of the apologists likely felt the same) he'd ever be selected an All-Star, but let's not confuse that with his arrival as a certified star.

There's plenty of random players who've been selected once or twice (or in DerRozan's case, five) because circumstances/narrative broke their way.

I still have the same questions about his potential fit on a good team and think he's probably more of a floor (DeRozan, Vucevic, Sabonis, prime Westbrook, Wall, etc.) than ceiling raiser.

[XDT76]

I didn't want to rain on the parade yesterday and I'll admit under no circumstances did I think (and if they're being honest, most of the apologists likely felt the same) he'd ever be selected an All-Star, but let's not confuse that with his arrival as a certified star.

There's plenty of random players who've been selected once or twice (or in DerRozan's case, five) because circumstances/narrative broke their way.

I still have the same questions about his potential fit on a good team and think he's probably more of a floor (DeRozan, Vucevic, Sabonis, prime Westbrook, Wall, etc.) than ceiling raiser.

You could be right that he might only get this one time all-star selection or he could only be a floor raiser. However he has shown to work his socks off and improve year after year. As a fan of the team it is okay to celebrate when a player is recognised by the league regardless of our opinion of the player. Enjoy the hype and sort out the difference on another day. Cheers

[TD 21]

I didn't want to rain on the parade yesterday


As a fan of the team it is okay to celebrate when a player is recognised by the league regardless of our opinion of the player. Enjoy the hype and sort out the difference on another day. Cheers

:wakeup

[XDT76]

:wakeup

When I said another day it does not mean to wait for one day, he was selected as an AS this season no need to keep shiting on him. It's not even AS game yet.

[RC_Drunkford]

TD21 trying his best to do some damage control :lmao

[TD 21]

The point was and is, despite him admittedly being better than I thought, I stand by what I said because of the same old flaws.

[UnWantedTheory]

TD21 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=908) trying his best to do some damage control :lmao
I actually don't disagree with him. Murray has definitely improved and turned out better than most would have thought. However, he isn't a star and many of the same questions about him remain.

[CGD]

I actually don't disagree with him. Murray has definitely improved and turned out better than most would have thought. However, he isn't a star and many of the same questions about him remain.

We should trade him for HOFer Andrew Wiggins.

[emanueldavidginobili]

I actually don't disagree with him. Murray has definitely improved and turned out better than most would have thought. However, he isn't a star and many of the same questions about him remain.
What are those questions? Dude is playing with a sack of potatoes.

[TD 21]

:lmao Thought I'd forget, apologists . . . spin it now.

[KingKev]

We got a pretty good haul. Massai would have gotten more though.

[Leetonidas]

I don't hate the kid but it's pretty obvious him being the Spurs next PG was stupid as fuck. His IQ is terrible he can't dribble or finish at the rim and he can't shoot. Idk how they thought they were gonna turn him into TP

Tbh

Thanks for those Hawks picks :tu

[Atl Spur]

:lmao Thought I'd forget, apologists . . . spin it now.

Stop being mean!:)

[rankingtear]

The evaluation of Murray in this thread is all over the place. Lonnie is a better defender takes the cake.

[KingKev]

https://bleacherreport.com/post/nba/4a161a45-d6e3-4889-b8bb-295dd08ee9f6

[Rocalcio]

He had a solid game against the Bucks, almost a triple double

[Leetonidas]

He'll have a good season. But when the hawks get to the playoffs and he starts shitting his pants when he gets double teamed we'll see what he's really made of

[KingKev]

He'll have a good season. But when the hawks get to the playoffs and he starts shitting his pants when he gets double teamed we'll see what he's really made of

He has multiple targets to hit especially in Trae and JC. His game has really slowed down this last year or so. He is very calculated.

[Leetonidas]

He has multiple targets to hit especially in Trae and JC. His game has really slowed down this last year or so. He is very calculated.

That is true but he also completely collapsed any time teams doubled him and it wasn't only because of his teammates, his decision making plummeted every time he got doubled

Time will tell. Like I said I think he'll have a good season. But the hawks ain't doing shit in the playoffs regardless. The east is too stacked

[Atl Spur]

Two FrP’s were well worth it����

[objective]

If they don't end up getting at least a single lottery pick out of the trade then shame on the Spurs

[slick'81]

If they don't end up getting at least a single lottery pick out of the trade then shame on the Spurs


the charlotte pick was definitely crap. Hopefully those two atl and chicago picks can lead to something