Trade Murray

[TD 21]

I've seen enough. Delusional, low IQ and unskilled, is an untenable combination.

Maybe someday he'll accept that his only path to being a useful player is to become a 3 and D type, but it more than likely won't be here. Without any elite young talent to put him in his place, he'll likely continue his delusions of grandeur. Either way, I'm not interested in wasting a bunch more years on the off chance that changes (the potential payoff isn't worth it), while he cramps the current and future youth of this team because he's such a poor fit.

It's insane to think of the contract this bit player received based on nothing. On his own, he won't fetch much, but if Aldridge or DeRozan can return a pick (something like Aldridge for Olynyk and 23), they could add it to 11 to try to get to 5.

[MannyIsGod]

Ah yes, the good ole Spurstalk posts that says "Player X is trash" all while claiming they can be traded for something meaningful.

[slick'81]

Just three more years guys at 15,16 and 17 per respectively. spurs arent giving him up yet and hell only be 27 when his deal expires

[MannyIsGod]

Just three more years guys at 15,16 amd 17 per respectively. spurs arent giving him up yet

He just signed the extension this year. It hasn't started yet.

[slick'81]

He just signed the extension this year. It hasn't started yet.

shit i thought it kicked in this year . Welp just four more years

[Leetonidas]

I don't hate the kid but it's pretty obvious him being the Spurs next PG was stupid as fuck. His IQ is terrible he can't dribble or finish at the rim and he can't shoot. Idk how they thought they were gonna turn him into TP

[TD 21]

Ah yes, the good ole Spurstalk posts that says "Player X is trash" all while claiming they can be traded for something meaningful.

I guess your miserable, homer ass didn't bother reading the last part.

[slick'81]

Pop loves the kid hes his new george hill

[phxspurfan]

Pop loves the kid hes his new george hill

But but GH3 stood up to Kobe

[MannyIsGod]

I guess your miserable, homer ass didn't bother reading the last part.

I did, but its fucking stupid. Trading our best players to help get rid of a player you think is trash and other teams shouldn't want? That is just going to depress their value.

Murray is young, on a reasonable contract, has value even at his current level of play. You don't trade players like that, you try to develop them going forward. You certainly don't depress the trade value of other players to get rid of them.


Just typical idiotic Spurstalk trade thread, TBQH.

Also LOL @ calling ME miserable after your cry baby post.

[TD 21]

I did, but its fucking stupid. Trading our best players to help get rid of a player you think is trash and other teams shouldn't want? That is just going to depress their value.

Murray is young, on a reasonable contract, has value even at his current level of play. You don't trade players like that, you try to develop them going forward. You certainly don't depress the trade value of other players to get rid of them.


Just typical idiotic Spurstalk trade thread, TBQH.

Also LOL @ calling ME miserable after your cry baby post.

Aldridge is 35 and has made it clear he'd like to return to the Trail Blazers or play in a more competitive situation. They can either overvalue him and lose him for nothing in a year or get something while they still can.

If they can add it to crap to add a potential core piece, then it's a win.

[BackHome]

Again for the hundredth time Murray is a SG not a PG and not even a PG/SG - Poop screwed up by trying to make him into one and is to arrogant to admit his mistake.

[BatManu20]

Ah yes, the good ole Spurstalk posts that says "Player X is trash" all while claiming they can be traded for something meaningful.

[Truth4sale$]

I admit Murray has not lived up to the hype (mostly the fans have placed on him) but I am not ready to give up on him yet. He has talent, but he needs to improve and he knows it. He is 23 and with injuries and his Gleague rookie assignment, and now Covid-19, he has played in only 180 games in 4 years, after only spending 1 year in college.
I believe he needs and needed a veteran point guard on the bench either as a player or assistant coach to better groom him as a playmaker. If Duncan does not return, the Spurs should hire a ex point guard coach to really develop the playmaking ability out of these young guys.

[spurspl]

ive told u months ago that: hes weak, has nothing special (except wingspan), offering him this money is just ridiculous and almost everyone laughed at me. Now u see. Overvalued, overhyped and overpaid.

[Ozballer]

Spurs are on a fast road to nowhere with their current roster and head coach...I can't think of a single player that would make us worse by trading him right now...I can see however, how we desperately need a couple of solid experience players in their prime that can carry a team to build around + a new head coach. Right now we have the worst of both worlds: vets on the decline with little commitment/motivation, youngsters with lots of enthusiasm, little experience and questionable talent.

[Chinook]

Murray doesn't really have any offensive skill-set, PG or wing. I blame Pop somewhat for how Murray's developed, but something tells me Murray spent all that time learning to shoot off-dribble twos because HE felt he was going to need that one-on-one skill-set. Basically, he was on the Kawhi development track but skipped the part where he was a good role-player and tried to go straight to the star phase. Pop should have had him practicing catch-and-shoot threes and finishes around the rim. I said as much way back before he got hurt. It's one thing to develop that skill when the other parts already work. But long-twos can't be the foundation of your game. Even a dude like DeRozan had to be a good penetrator, finisher and foul-drawer to make his game work as much as it has.

Murray probably deserves one more year to develop and recover from injury, but he can't stay in the starting lineup. He's directly hurting Walker's development, and he, DeRozan and White are just too many guys who need the ball in their hands. I don't know that DJM's ego will let him take a back seat, though. That'd mean he has to be traded. If they can get really good value for Murray, I think it could make sense to do so. It doesn't matter if they are trying to rebuild or reload. Murray as a big-minute player with that skill-set isn't good for the present or future.

Swap DJM for KJ, and I think the team could win out and make the playoffs. But the only way that make it with the current SL is if Murray absolutely shows out.

(And finally, I am also famous for saying Murray could've gotten $100 Million if he played decently this year. With all this Corona stuff, that would've been dicey. Regardless, I think he fell short of what would be considered "decent", mostly due to not getting enough minutes. His efficiency and impact stats were also bad, though.)

[Dhbsr555]

The two untouchables rn imo are white and keldon ... Lonnie is up there but for the right price I’d let him go

[BatManu20]

Too young to give up on. Only 23 and still has potential. But he needs to spend his entire offseason working on his jump shot. If he can become even a 35% shooter from deep and 40% from midrange, he would be much basketball player.

[smush]

You are right! White and keldon are untouchable!

[Chinook]

Too young to give up on. Only 23 and still has potential. But he needs to spend his entire offseason working on his jump shot. If he can become even a 35% shooter from deep and 40% from midrange, he would be much basketball player.

Not really, though, and that's the biggest issue. Murray could become a decent three-point shooter, but unless catch-and-shooting is the foundation of his game, it won't help him much. Right now, he dominates the ball way too much and like taking bad or meh shots. Simply being better at shots he rarely takes won't do jack. The entire way Murray plays ball needs to change, or he needs to somehow develop the other aspects to become a superstar. I have no idea why he plays with a poor-man's DeRozan on offense, but that needs to stop.

[Dhbsr555]

I was very high on Murray in 2018 felt he had slot of upside... however he hasn’t improved at all

[itzsoweezee]

Murray doesn't really have any offensive skill-set, PG or wing. I blame Pop somewhat for how Murray's developed, but something tells me Murray spent all that time learning to shoot off-dribble twos because HE felt he was going to need that one-on-one skill-set. Basically, he was on the Kawhi development track but skipped the part where he was a good role-player and tried to go straight to the star phase. Pop should have had him practicing catch-and-shoot threes and finishes around the rim. I said as much way back before he got hurt. It's one thing to develop that skill when the other parts already work. But long-twos can't be the foundation of your game. Even a dude like DeRozan had to be a good penetrator, finisher and foul-drawer to make his game work as much as it has.

Murray probably deserves one more year to develop and recover from injury, but he can't stay in the starting lineup. He's directly hurting Walker's development, and he, DeRozan and White are just too many guys who need the ball in their hands. I don't know that DJM's ego will let him take a back seat, though. That'd mean he has to be traded. If they can get really good value for Murray, I think it could make sense to do so. It doesn't matter if they are trying to rebuild or reload. Murray as a big-minute player with that skill-set isn't good for the present or future.

Swap DJM for KJ, and I think the team could win out and make the playoffs. But the only way that make it with the current SL is if Murray absolutely shows out.

(And finally, I am also famous for saying Murray could've gotten $100 Million if he played decently this year. With all this Corona stuff, that would've been dicey. Regardless, I think he fell short of what would be considered "decent", mostly due to not getting enough minutes. His efficiency and impact stats were also bad, though.)

Agree with all this. I'd love to see kj getting Murray's spot in the starting lineup.

I think poetl/gay/DeRozan/white/kj would be a really strong starting lineup, with Lonnie, Murray, eubanks, and Patty off the bench.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I don't hate the kid but it's pretty obvious him being the Spurs next PG was stupid as fuck. His IQ is terrible he can't dribble or finish at the rim and he can't shoot. Idk how they thought they were gonna turn him into TP

[KobesAchilles]

Yeah I’ve been saying to trade him for a while. I think him packaged with Demar can get us Randle/filler and a pick swap. He has no brains. He has no feel for the game. He can learn things for sure but not enough for it to matter for us. His defense is trash (and that’s all Pop’s fault) and he needs to relearn how to play defense. It’s better to trade Murray for both him and us. We need him to be Danny Green. Murray will never want to be Danny Green or really is suited to be Danny. But he CAN’T play point guard. The dude can’t dribble, penetrate the defense, pass in traffic, or set up teammates. It sucks that we handled his development so bad and that he got injured, but we whiffed in him as a player and us as management to his career.

[MultiTroll]

Development:

:pop:
Out of position as a PG
Position mentored by Patty Mills and Bryn Forbes
Put in positions where he overthinks instead of his monkeyballer skills being maxed.
*Stars and *leaders on the team to take pressure off him have been Muh Touches LMA and DD. Please.

Even the 76er game, while i am not blaming Pop, i would not have put him in that defensive inbounds position. Gets emotionally overloaded easily when asked to multitask.

[R. DeMurre]

White and KJ are really emerging as the legit young players on the squad so far, ahead of Murray and Walker. Hate to beat a dead horse, but if KJ and White play an extra 5 minutes each and DeRozan 5-10 minutes less, Porter probably doesn't score 30, and the Spurs maybe win this game. Through four games, DeRozan is at -6 and KJ is at +17. White is at +15. Under normal circumstances I'd say it's too early to anoint KJ as the starting SF, but the Spurs have no hope of a future title with DeMar as their leader in minutes, so they might as well pull off that bandaid now and get it over with. I'd hang on to Murray another year for sure, unless the combination of DeRozan & Murray can bring back a legit player over 6'8" who can defend and hit threes.

[tholdren]

I don't hate the kid but it's pretty obvious him being the Spurs next PG was stupid as fuck. His IQ is terrible he can't dribble or finish at the rim and he can't shoot. Idk how they thought they were gonna turn him into TP

At least it only took you 4 years. How he and walker are considered professional is the probem with the NBA.

All he did at Washington was run out of control on fast breaks. Why he was drafted to play pg for this team is unknown. Cant pass cant finish and some reason has shooter mentality.

He and Lonnie will only be successful is the pace is the fastest innthe league

[TD 21]

it doesn't take years to learn how to play basketball. You either have it you don't. Look no further than White. Took all of 5 minutes to realize this guy knows how to play. Murray doesn't and he doesn't have any notable skill either. He's a bad fit with virtually everyone.

I'd try get ahead of this like the Mavericks did Smith.

The only way this group of role players work long term is by getting rid of him and trying to find a centerpiece to make sense of them. The trade I proposed would potentially kill two birds with one stone.

[talkspurs]

I remember back when Parker was young and many of the same things were said. doesnt pass/cant see the floor/ cant shoot. He turned out ok.

[TD 21]

I remember back when Parker was young and many of the same things were said. doesnt pass/cant see the floor/ cant shoot. He turned out ok.

Ah, this nonsense again. So because of the success of him and Scumbag, that means it's easy to find and develop superstars and stars anywhere.

Parker always had elite speed/quickness and near elite handle, which made him elite at getting to the rim, where he was elite at finishing. Real, tangible, important skills.

[DAF86]

I remember back when Parker was young and many of the same things were said. doesnt pass/cant see the floor/ cant shoot. He turned out ok.

lol Parker was a starter after a couple of games into his rookie season. By year two he was the second offensive option behind Duncan. Murray is way behind that curve.

[slick'81]

lol Parker was a starter after a couple of games into his rookie season. By year two he was the second offensive option behind Duncan. Murray is way behind that curve.


Not to mention they are completely different players

[talkspurs]

lol Parker was a starter after a couple of games into his rookie season. By year two he was the second offensive option behind Duncan. Murray is way behind that curve.

Parker also was not taking over from the teams best PG of all time nor did he get injured early on. I also remember a lot of people wanted him benched for speedy (2nd year) and then let go or benched if we could have gotten Kidd. Yep from the first day he was on the team People thought he was the second best player on the team.

[DAF86]

Parker also was not taking over from the teams best PG of all time nor did he get injured early on. I also remember a lot of people wanted him benched for speedy (2nd year) and then let go or benched if we could have gotten Kidd. Yep from the first day he was on the team People thought he was the second best player on the team.

If Murray can ever be as good as year 2 Parker at any point of his career, I would be the happiest man alive.

[talkspurs]

Ah, this nonsense again. So because of the success of him and Scumbag, that means it's easy to find and develop superstars and stars anywhere.

Thats not what I am saying at all. I think he will be good though and I have seen how the board can praise players when they do well and then think they should be traded easily also. If teams traded players as easily as people on hear wish they would then we would probably end up with 300 different players on the team by year end and probably none would make it through the whole season.

[Down Under]

His pullup jumper looks great & his 3 ball looks decent too - he just needs to shoot it more so he can attack when defenses close out harder to him. The thing will be him understanding he's never going to be an iso guy because he doesn't have explosive speed (or even a quick first step) nor the strength to get what he wants 1 on 1.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Parker also was not taking over from the teams best PG of all time nor did he get injured early on. I also remember a lot of people wanted him benched for speedy (2nd year) and then let go or benched if we could have gotten Kidd. Yep from the first day he was on the team People thought he was the second best player on the team.

spurs would ahve been bad fuckin ass with kiddd

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

dejounte is paper trash

cut him

i wanted him to be good, but sorry senor

[Russ]

His pullup jumper looks great & his 3 ball looks decent too - he just needs to shoot it more so he can attack when defenses close out harder to him. The thing will be him understanding he's never going to be an iso guy because he doesn't have explosive speed (or even a quick first step) nor the strength to get what he wants 1 on 1.

The only thing that bothers me at this point is Murray's inability to finish consistently (considering he is so adept getting to the rim).

[Ozballer]

He is feeling the pressure and forces things rather than having the game come to him. He is trying too hard and unfortunately the self imposed role of enforcer does not feel natural to his game and right now makes him look worse than what he is. He needs to chill.

[duncan2150]

You Need to give Murray at least another year before trading him or something else

Why ? Because it's his first year after the injury and he improves his jumpshot a lot, now he needs to improve his decision making.. We'll see if he can.

Plus he is a good defender, start with getting rid of forbes, beli.... Maybe gay, poetl who is not good actually.... And then think about dejounte.

[duncan2k5]

Murray's issue is that he came in with an alpha mentality that was beaten out of him by Pop's treatment... Now he plays like a roleplayer... He only took 8 shots for Christ sakes... Rudy gay took 18!!! White took 15! Murray plays like a pussy waaay too often... I've been saying his best games are when he takes at least 15 shots... Those are when he is active and acting like a star... Even Forbes shoots more than Murray

[tenbeersbold]

I've seen enough. Delusional, low IQ and unskilled, is an untenable combination.

Maybe someday he'll accept that his only path to being a useful player is to become a 3 and D type, but it more than likely won't be here. Without any elite young talent to put him in his place, he'll likely continue his delusions of grandeur. Either way, I'm not interested in wasting a bunch more years on the off chance that changes (the potential payoff isn't worth it), while he cramps the current and future youth of this team because he's such a poor fit.



It's insane to think of the contract this bit player received based on nothing. On his own, he won't fetch much, but if Aldridge or DeRozan can return a pick (something like Aldridge for Olynyk and 23), they could add it to 11 to try to get to 5.

It's way beyond Murray tbh.
Patfo has lost the plot completely.

Ponder this... Patfo daggered TP9 and forced him out of town to give DJM his starting job!!!
Don't blame TP9 either,after all he gave and that's how it went down.
Then when DJM through injury and shit play fubared it they gave that job to BRYN FORBES and a few dashes of the ever worthless Patty Mills

Tbh I'd of rather seen TP9 dragging his corpse around for a few more years until he retired than the useless clowns Patfo has tried to fill his shoes with.

When Patty Mills is your team leader and officially sanctioned Spurs culture torch bearer it is well and fucking over.
Can you imagine say Matt Bonner being the "leader" during the contending years?!?!

[Dejounte]

Murray's issue is that he came in with an alpha mentality that was beaten out of him by Pop's treatment... Now he plays like a roleplayer... He only took 8 shots for Christ sakes... Rudy gay took 18!!! White took 15! Murray plays like a pussy waaay too often... I've been saying his best games are when he takes at least 15 shots... Those are when he is active and acting like a star... Even Forbes shoots more than Murray

You mean like the terrible game he had against the sixers when he was active and missed a lot of shots? Dont tell me you are back...

[Slippy]

Pop loves the kid hes his new george hill

Pop loves having a glut of guards so he can continue playing midget ball with Demar at PF. The likes of Lonny White and DJ guarding the taller SFs .. as in last night when they all gave up offensive rebounds to the much taller Grant and Porter. A few seasons of this with Bryn leading the way isnt enough evidence.

[duncan2150]

Pop loves having a glut of guards so he can continue playing midget ball with Demar at PF. The likes of Lonny White and DJ guarding the taller SFs .. as in last night when they all gave up offensive rebounds to the much taller Grant and Porter. A few seasons of this with Bryn leading the way isnt enough evidence.
The O rebounds are more linked to youre 4 Or 5 who are not cleaning the glass.
Give the spurs a real guy inside and you will see.

[exstatic]

I've seen enough. Delusional, low IQ and unskilled, is an untenable combination.

Maybe someday he'll accept that his only path to being a useful player is to become a 3 and D type, but it more than likely won't be here. Without any elite young talent to put him in his place, he'll likely continue his delusions of grandeur. Either way, I'm not interested in wasting a bunch more years on the off chance that changes (the potential payoff isn't worth it), while he cramps the current and future youth of this team because he's such a poor fit.

It's insane to think of the contract this bit player received based on nothing. On his own, he won't fetch much, but if Aldridge or DeRozan can return a pick (something like Aldridge for Olynyk and 23), they could add it to 11 to try to get to 5.

Hate to burst your bubble, but 23 and 11 doesn't get you to 5.

I won't argue about maybe needing to move DJ, though. He's looked pretty trashy in Orlando. White is just SO much better.

[Dejounte]

White doesn't need to be the one replacing Murray. This whole offense would look a lot better if White stays in his current mode of attacking / scoring and if Murray was competent. Replace Murray with Q and White can maintain his current role. We dont need or want White to do everything. What I think this team's goal is to be a hydra, with players from every position who can attack and score. Q already looks like he can score, defend, and shoot 3s.

[ragas]

The O rebounds are more linked to youre 4 Or 5 who are not cleaning the glass.
Give the spurs a real guy inside and you will see.

Poeltl played against Jokic, who mostly played from the perimeter. So you had the Spurs only 7 footer away from the rim. There's no way you can handle Porter & Millsap under the rim with 4 guards. Jokic had only 4 rebounds the whole game.

[exstatic]

White doesn't need to be the one replacing Murray. This whole offense would look a lot better if White stays in his current mode of attacking / scoring and if Murray was competent. Replace Murray with Q and White can maintain his current role. We dont need or want White to do everything. What I think this team's goal is to be a hydra, with players from every position who can attack and score. Q already looks like he can score, defend, and shoot 3s.

In game 2, White had 7 assts and ZERO turnovers. He'll be the PG. He's a better creator AND a better scorer than DJ right now.

[Dejounte]

In game 2, White had 7 assts and ZERO turnovers. He'll be the PG.

Sure, and he did it as the secondary guard. Not sure why people are so adamant as making him do everything. He can / is already a player who is being utilized to his greatest strengths... And thats to be a scorer. Hes already taking enough physical punishment on defense and you want him to be the defacto handler on offense too?

[ragas]

Sure, and he did it as the secondary guard. Not sure why people are so adamant as making him do everything. He can / is already a player who is being utilized to his greatest strengths... And thats to be a scorer. Hes already taking enough physical punishment on defense and you want him to be the defacto handler on offense too?

why not? reminds me of a guy named kyle lowry.

[Dejounte]

Having multiple ball handlers on this team has been the team's philosophy. I dont think it was the team's intention to have all ball handlers from 1 to 4. They went overboard with that due to personnel. Once DeMar is shipped out, 1 to 3 positions will be perimeter players who will all attack the defense from various angles. No one player needs to be the lead guard. It will keep the opposing team guessing and on their feet of which player is going to initiate the offense.

[Dejounte]

why not? reminds me of a guy named kyle lowry.

Even Kyle Lowry hasnt been the lead guard. Fred Van Vleet shares those duties. This is the new age NBA. The PG role is now divided among players. Its no longer a singular role.

In the Raptors' latest game, Lowry AND Fred each had 10 assists

[spurspl]

Having multiple ball handlers on this team has been the team's philosophy. I dont think it was the team's intention to have all ball handlers from 1 to 4. They went overboard with that due to personnel. Once DeMar is shipped out, 1 to 3 positions will be perimeter players who will all attack the defense from various angles. No one player needs to be the lead guard. It will keep the opposing team guessing and on their feet of which player is going to initiate the offense.

even if thats the philosophy murray is unnecessary, he cant dribble, pass and shoot. Why the heck they gave him 60mil/4yr

[Dejounte]

even if thats the philosophy murray is unnecessary, he cant dribble, pass and shoot. Why the heck they gave him 60mil/4yr

Im not disagreeing with you that he has been disappointing, in fact, I'm still holding out hope that he wakes up. The point I'm just trying to make is that it doesn't need to be White who replaces him nor does it have to be someone we have to waste a draft pick on (we have Q). In fact, if we draft a point forward (like Deni) then whoever we replace Dejounte with doesn't need to even be that great, they just need to be solid. Hell, keeping DJ wouldnt be that bad after drafting Deni.

[Dejounte]

Shit, even Lonnie could potentially replace Dejounte since he is so invisible and useless without the ball in his hands...

[exstatic]

I like Q, and feel that he will have a role on this team, but White is a better distributor and scorer than him, too.

There was a video on White after he was drafted, and they talked to his HS coach. He said that he didn’t understand Derrick’s game, and it took a while to realize that he needed to just put the ball in Derricks hands. He also noted that he watched the same thing happen at UCCS and UC, as their coaches have the same realization. It’s just Pops turn.

[spurspl]

Im not disagreeing with you that he has been disappointing, in fact, I'm still holding out hope that he wakes up. The point I'm just trying to make is that it doesn't need to be White who replaces him nor does it have to be someone we have to waste a draft pick on (we have Q). In fact, if we draft a point forward (like Deni) then whoever we replace Dejounte with doesn't need to even be that great, they just need to be solid. Hell, keeping DJ wouldnt be that bad after drafting Deni.

ok but if we replace murray isnt it too much (15-17mil per yr) to keep on a bench?? if he was much cheaper id be ok him to stay and hope that maybe some day he will be worth that kind of maney but now... it makes him terrible player to keep, especially when spurs tryna to rebuild and he just doesnt fit in any way

[Dejounte]

ok but if we replace murray isnt it too much (15-17mil per yr) to keep on a bench?? if he was much cheaper id be ok him to stay and hope that maybe some day he will be worth that kind of maney but now... it makes him terrible player to keep, especially when spurs tryna to rebuild and he just doesnt fit in any way

I'm not saying I dont want to trade him. People worry about our return but I'm more worried about how our team will react.

People downplay his leadership but losing someone you've worked with for several years could impact your view of the organization.

He has apparently developed a close friendship with Keldon.

[spurspl]

I'm not saying I dont want to trade him. People worry about our return but I'm more worried about how our team will react.

People downplay his leadership but losing someone you've worked with for several years could impact your view of the organization.

He has apparently developed a close friendship with Keldon.

sort of agree, thats the only cons of trading him. Hes the guy that are close to each other teammates, have a great relationship with lonnie and keldon etc.

[MultiTroll]

I like Q, and feel that he will have a role on this team, but White is a better distributor and scorer than him, too.

There was a video on White after he was drafted, and they talked to his HS coach. He said that he didn’t understand Derrick’s game, and it took a while to realize that he needed to just put the ball in Derricks hands. He also noted that he watched the same thing happen at UCCS and UC, as their coaches have the same realization. It’s just Pops turn.
So that should be happening any time now, right?

[Dejounte]

sort of agree, thats the only cons of trading him. Hes the guy that are close to each other teammates, have a great relationship with lonnie and keldon etc.

Think about it this way--

A team has to exhibit loyalty if they expect loyalty in return.

We are finally inching towards a brotherhood within our players, and we want to go away from that? This is the new NBA, its all about unity. With a high turnover, you can't achieve that.

People have to think about the internal factors, not just the external.

If the asshole #2 maybe had a friend or two on his team, maybe he would have stayed. Instead, those teams had cliques and every time he was forming a bond, we got rid of his friends. Granted, they sucked... (J Simms and Dedmon)

Would you rather win with your brothers or win with a bunch of randoms and develop a prima donna attitude and start thinking you can do it on any team?

We want stars to stay, not go...

[SAGirl]

His pullup jumper looks great & his 3 ball looks decent too - he just needs to shoot it more so he can attack when defenses close out harder to him. The thing will be him understanding he's never going to be an iso guy because he doesn't have explosive speed (or even a quick first step) nor the strength to get what he wants 1 on 1.
I’ve wondered if he lost half a step as the result of the injury. He had a horrible handle when he came in the league. As high as the dribble is now and as awkward as it can look, he was TO prone and couldn’t really shoot bc it took him time to gather, but one thing he did have was a quick step that allowed him to blow by someone with ease if only his dribble skill was good enough. Then he was stick thin and always end up putting up a weird floater.

[TimDunkem]

It's insane to think of the contract this bit player received based on nothing. On his own, he won't fetch much, but if Aldridge or DeRozan can return a pick (something like Aldridge for Olynyk and 23), they could add it to 11 to try to get to 5.
You can't trade 1st rounders in consecutive years. Miami's pick isn't available.

They wouldn't want that awful deal anyway.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

There's a huge chasm between White's point guard ability and Murray's. I doubt Murray would be in the NBA if he wasn't as athletically gifted as he is, because he doesn't possess an NBA level skillset at this point. And unfortunately, court vision and the ability to create normally are innate, and not easily taught.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

^^^ That being said, he still can learn to be a contributor, but I think he's out of position at the point.

[spurspl]

Think about it this way--

A team has to exhibit loyalty if they expect loyalty in return.

We are finally inching towards a brotherhood within our players, and we want to go away from that? This is the new NBA, its all about unity. With a high turnover, you can't achieve that.

People have to think about the internal factors, not just the external.

If the asshole #2 maybe had a friend or two on his team, maybe he would have stayed. Instead, those teams had cliques and every time he was forming a bond, we got rid of his friends. Granted, they sucked... (J Simms and Dedmon)

Would you rather win with your brothers or win with a bunch of randoms and develop a prima donna attitude and start thinking you can do it on any team?

We want stars to stay, not go...

obviously id prefer to win with brothers and i do understand that for the spurs loyalty is very important bc for example small market. But givin a guy 60mil u kind of expect him to play at least above the average. Instead of this u got a guy who almost not improving and does not fit in any system and any position. Im really afraid for what contract will be asking white and next keldon if we gave such a big contract for a much worse murray. That probably will cause a conflicts and another overpaid players or another losing players

[cd98]

It's weird, but the Spurs should consider trading Murray, young talent that he is. Eventually you have to pay everyone that you want to keep. Obviously, they need to keep White. But they can't max him out and Walker and Murray. That's too much money for young players that may not pan out in the long run. White is better than Murray and so they should get rid of Murray.

[RD2191]

I've said it since the beginning, DJ reminds me of his mentor Jamal Crawford with better defense. I've always seen Murray as a 6th man of sorts. I don't think he should be a starter or paid like one.

[Dejounte]

White isn't getting maxed. Especially not Walker... Wtf? Walker has shown nothing to deserve anything.

[Mal]

I also don't think he improved much. I was high on him, but he looks lost.

[cd98]

I've said it since the beginning, DJ reminds me of his mentor Jamal Crawford with better defense. I've always seen Murray as a 6th man of sorts. I don't think he should be a starter or paid like one.

Yikes. Crawford was a good ball handler and a great shooter. If Murray was as good as him, I'd be all for keeping him, but I don't think he is unfortunately.

[cd98]

White isn't getting maxed. Especially not Walker... Wtf? Walker has shown nothing to deserve anything.

I don't know what White is getting paid, but he's the best young player on this team, so he's getting paid what is needed to keep him. That I guarantee. If it will require max money given what he is entitled to, he will get max money. He is showing he is worth it. As to Walker, he hasn't shown anything yet, but he's only got one year in the NBA (last year doesn't count). So by year three, if he radically improves, which is entirely possible, then the Spurs will need to pay him. Murray's skill set isn't bad, but he isn't the athlete or the shooter Walker and White are and White is a more capable point guard from what I've seen. That means the Spurs will have needs at other positions and Murray is an inferior duplicative. I don't think Murray is a waste. I think he could be a good NBA player, but White makes him expendable.

[TimDunkem]

Should've picked Brogdon.

[Capt Bringdown]

Mediocre at best BBIQ and a powder-puff upstairs. Murray's cockiness is obviously compensation.
His journeyman skillset and weak mental game is best utilized in moderation. Used as he is now will cost the team games.
He'll have a good game every now and then, but the kid is truly nothing special. Count on this cat and you're gonna be disappointed.

He's been the biggest let-down this season by far. The rest of the team is competing hard and is fun to watch.
Murray's a bum/bummer.

[Play Boban]

Ah yes, the good ole Spurstalk posts that says "Player X is trash" all while claiming they can be traded for something meaningful.
Jeff Ayers would be more mesnigmful tbh

[exstatic]

Think about it this way--

A team has to exhibit loyalty if they expect loyalty in return.

We are finally inching towards a brotherhood within our players, and we want to go away from that? This is the new NBA, its all about unity. With a high turnover, you can't achieve that.

People have to think about the internal factors, not just the external.

If the asshole #2 maybe had a friend or two on his team, maybe he would have stayed. Instead, those teams had cliques and every time he was forming a bond, we got rid of his friends. Granted, they sucked... (J Simms and Dedmon)

Would you rather win with your brothers or win with a bunch of randoms and develop a prima donna attitude and start thinking you can do it on any team?

We want stars to stay, not go...

So, what does that have to do with Dejounte?

[MultiTroll]

So, what does that have to do with Dejounte?
It means Homer, maybe with some real coaching and continued comradery he may excell many more times then he already has.
https://youtu.be/S4ss8t0kysw

[RD2191]

Yikes. Crawford was a good ball handler and a great shooter. If Murray was as good as him, I'd be all for keeping him, but I don't think he is unfortunately.

Yeah, maybe Crawford isn't the right comparison. Still think Murray has 6th man potential.

[gambit1990]

https://i.imgur.com/T5fkkNa.png

white / keldon / og / tj warren / myles turner

that's some defense right there.

[Dejounte]

So, what does that have to do with Dejounte?

If you're trying to say I was saying Dejounte is a star, I wasn't....

Why focus on one line? Read the whole thing in full context. It's not hard to understand what I'm trying to say.

[cd98]

Yeah, maybe Crawford isn't the right comparison. Still think Murray has 6th man potential.

Maybe Livingston post ACL injury. He made a living posting up small guards. Murray's mid range looks like he could do that and pitch in at point guard when needed.

[EasyMoney]

I don't understand how white can become a spot up 3pt shooter during the hiatus but dejounte couldn't

[exstatic]

It means Homer, maybe with some real coaching and continued comradery he may excell many more times then he already has.
https://youtu.be/S4ss8t0kysw

In his highest possible arc, he still falls far short of star.

[exstatic]

If you're trying to say I was saying Dejounte is a star, I wasn't....

Why focus on one line? Read the whole thing in full context. It's not hard to understand what I'm trying to say.

The Spurs traded Antonio Daniels, Malik Rose, and let Jack walk, and yet somehow, Tim Duncan was fine. There’s a reason they’re interested in who you are when they draft, and it only failed them once, with a mute cancer with a manipulative uncle. I don’t think they should keep pieces that aren’t working so as to not offend a player.

[BackHome]

Again Poop screwed DJ career he should have put him as a SG instead of trying to make him a PG when everyone knows he does not have the skill set for it. Just tell him to go watch tape of Bowen and Green this summer and tell him that’s is what we want from him if possible.

[spurspl]

https://i.imgur.com/T5fkkNa.png

white / keldon / og / tj warren / myles turner

that's some defense right there.

looks great for us but i dont see any reason why pacers gives away so much value for an old 1yr LMA, mid range pick and a guy who will not have a spot in a starting 5

[exstatic]

Again Poop screwed DJ career he should have put him as a SG instead of trying to make him a PG when everyone knows he does not have the skill set for it. Just tell him to go watch tape of Bowen and Green this summer and tell him that’s is what we want from him if possible.

When you draft a raw player at 29, you shoot for the moon. A 6’5” PG is infinitely more valuable than a 6’5” SG. If it doesn’t work, you roll with plan B. Besides, he couldn’t fucking shoot. Plenty of precedent for poor shooting PGs, but not so much for SGs.

[RD2191]

Maybe Livingston post ACL injury. He made a living posting up small guards. Murray's mid range looks like he could do that and pitch in at point guard when needed.

Not a bad comparison. I don't remember much about Sean except for him playing well with the Dubs. I went back and apparently DJs weakness coming out of college was his jump shot and his decision making. Looks like he's got the jump shot down but the decision making might take awhile.

[BackHome]

When you draft a raw player at 29, you shoot for the moon. A 6’5” PG is infinitely more valuable than a 6’5” SG. If it doesn’t work, you roll with plan B. Besides, he couldn’t fucking shoot. Plenty of precedent for poor shooting PGs, but not so much for SGs.

I agree but it took one year for most people to understand he does not have PG skill set ie court vision. I am OK with them trying first year but after that it should have been obvious he does not have the skill set but his shooting has gotten much better which is easier to work and learn as someone stated earlier you either have the PG skill set or you don’t. Again switch him to SG or trade him either one is fine with me.

[TD 21]

Thats not what I am saying at all. I think he will be good though and I have seen how the board can praise players when they do well and then think they should be traded easily also. If teams traded players as easily as people on hear wish they would then we would probably end up with 300 different players on the team by year end and probably none would make it through the whole season.

Based on what; him looking/sounding the part? He's been hyped since he slipped in the draft by people who cover it, then uncharacteristically by the Spurs behind the scenes, which led to the medial (both local and national) following suit, but he's never actually proven anything.

I've been consistent with my critique throughout.



Hate to burst your bubble, but 23 and 11 doesn't get you to 5.

I won't argue about maybe needing to move DJ, though. He's looked pretty trashy in Orlando. White is just SO much better.

Hate to burst yours, but I said Murray, 11 and 23 for 5 and Brown Jr.

:wow



You can't trade 1st rounders in consecutive years. Miami's pick isn't available.

They wouldn't want that awful deal anyway.

I believe it is and that's good value for them.

Doesn't cost a significant asset, gets them a step closer to contention and doesn't tie up '21 cap space to potentially chase Antetokounmpo.

[DeRozan m8]

Spurs sub reddit seems to he where all the low iq fans post....can't call Murray out on there without unnecessary backlash

[BackHome]

All I know is RC better have 6 separate phone on his desk labeled:

1. Philly they have pick 22 they desperately need a change maybe Rudy?

2. Orlando - has 16th pick they not going anywhere have been interested in DEROZZ ie. Gordon

3. Boston - picks 15, 25, 30 They need a Center so Poodle trade and there 15th pick.

4. Miami - 23rd pick Rudy?

5. Portland - 14th pick off course LMA and not sure who we would want but this years pick or next years would have to be part of deal

6. Nets - They want 3 big names could see DEROZZ agreeing to a sign and trade oh they have 19th pick which would have to be in deal. Dwindle plus ? And 19th pick.

[talkspurs]

Based on what; him looking/sounding the part? He's been hyped since he slipped in the draft by people who cover it, then uncharacteristically by the Spurs behind the scenes, which led to the medial (both local and national) following suit, but he's never actually proven anything.

I've been consistent with my critique throughout.


He has had good games. White has had good games both have had bad games. Murray is younger. first year didnt play much. 2nd year starting to take over but still was not a focus. 3rd year out and this year still not given confidence to play his way and also coming off injury. Let him get next year in and see how he does. he should be able to play more comfortable next year.

[Dhbsr555]

All I know is RC better have 6 separate phone on his desk labeled:

1. Philly they have pick 22 they desperately need a change maybe Rudy?

2. Orlando - has 16th pick they not going anywhere have been interested in DEROZZ ie. Gordon

3. Boston - picks 15, 25, 30 They need a Center so Poodle trade and there 15th pick.

4. Miami - 23rd pick Rudy?

5. Portland - 14th pick off course LMA and not sure who we would want but this years pick or next years would have to be part of deal

6. Nets - They want 3 big names could see DEROZZ agreeing to a sign and trade oh they have 19th pick which would have to be in deal. Dwindle plus ? And 19th pick.
We need a stretch 4 that can play defense we don’t need anymore guards

[Dingle Barry]

Nobody wants his contract. He's not a starting PG. He's a backup combo guard. He's the replacement for Patty as our overpaid bench) reserve positionless guard. What's really great is that we have another year of Patty too.

That said, his contract isn't some albatross that we need to package with real assets to unload.

Priority needs to be finding a real starter caliber PG with a 3 ball and high BBIQ. Then you feature Murray off the bench and hope he grows into the role well enough to entice GMs a la George Hill.

[Dingle Barry]

We need a stretch 4 that can play defense we don’t need anymore guards
#metu

[TD 21]

He has had good games. White has had good games both have had bad games. Murray is younger. first year didnt play much. 2nd year starting to take over but still was not a focus. 3rd year out and this year still not given confidence to play his way and also coming off injury. Let him get next year in and see how he does. he should be able to play more comfortable next year.

Again, what does he do offensively so much as competently that's important for a perimeter player?

Is he going to medical school? It doesn't take 8 years to figure out how to play basketball. It's generally innate and again, he doesn't have any notable skill to make up for his lack of basketball IQ.



Nobody wants his contract. He's not a starting PG. He's a backup combo guard. He's the replacement for Patty as our overpaid bench) reserve positionless guard. What's really great is that we have another year of Patty too.

That said, his contract isn't some albatross that we need to package with real assets to unload.

Priority needs to be finding a real starter caliber PG with a 3 ball and high BBIQ. Then you feature Murray off the bench and hope he grows into the role well enough to entice GMs a la George Hill.

"We" would be packaging it to move up to hopefully add much needing play making and 3-point shooting (or at least, a willingness to shoot them with volume), with Avdija or possibly Hayes/Haliburton.

[Mugen]

Nobody wants his contract. He's not a starting PG. He's a backup combo guard. He's the replacement for Patty as our overpaid bench) reserve positionless guard. What's really great is that we have another year of Patty too.

That said, his contract isn't some albatross that we need to package with real assets to unload.

Priority needs to be finding a real starter caliber PG with a 3 ball and high BBIQ. Then you feature Murray off the bench and hope he grows into the role well enough to entice GMs a la George Hill.

They already have that with DWhite tbh. Priority is finding a 3/4 combo IMO.

[DAF86]

He is feeling the pressure and forces things rather than having the game come to him. He is trying too hard and unfortunately the self imposed role of enforcer does not feel natural to his game and right now makes him look worse than what he is. He needs to chill.

Pop needs to take the ball off his hands. Make White the PG with DeRozan as the main playmaker. Murray should stay on the wings waiting for kick outs to either take a spot up Jumper or attack the basket with an unbalanced defense. It would simplify the game for him.

[spurspl]

Pop needs to take the ball off his hands. Make White the PG with DeRozan as the main playmaker. Murray should stay on the wings waiting for kick outs to either take a spot up Jumper or attack the basket with an unbalanced defense. It would simplify the game for him.

murray should be on a training court practicing his 3s or at home watching some oscsr robertson/magic johnson plays to learn playmaking

[Ozballer]

I hear you. Irrespective of position, it just appears that he is trying to make an all star play every time he touches the ball rather than just share it here and there and allow for the game to flow and engage his game naturally as a result. He is beating himself up by applying the wrong mindset. He is his own worst enemy right now.


Pop needs to take the ball off his hands. Make White the PG with DeRozan as the main playmaker. Murray should stay on the wings waiting for kick outs to either take a spot up Jumper or attack the basket with an unbalanced defense. It would simplify the game for him.

[Slippy]

They already have that with DWhite tbh. Priority is finding a 3/4 combo IMO.

How our expectations have fallen? they really could use Trey Lyles out there .. lol

[Slippy]

They already have that with DWhite tbh. Priority is finding a 3/4 combo IMO.

How our standards have fallen? they really could use Trey Lyles out there .. lol

[Slippy]

Double

[ismael-robert]

I agree. He's one of the young guys. He brings length that we don't have. All season he was one of our top rebounders and if u focus on his play before the hiatus he was becoming a solid double, double machine for us. This his first year and he was showing why he was drafted so high.

[KobesAchilles]

Pop doesn't know shit about bringing up a point guard. I still say he ruined Tony Parker's career in the beginning. He made Parker into what he wanted, which is a damn good PG to be sure, but imagine if Pop let Parker run loose and play more fast break early on. I think that's part of why we in such a rut offensively in the early 2000's, if anyone remembers us winning games like 78-74 or 82-80. Pop didn't really know how to run an offense back then, he just gave the ball to Duncan and it worked, I'm not hating on that philosophy at all, but it wasn't exactly good for Tony Parker.

To Pop's credit however, he spent literally all of last year giving Murray tape to watch, letting him call plays, sitting in on coaches meetings. Murray had one year of uninterrupted time to learn the offense and he still looks completely lost. Pop did ruin Murray's defense though simply by playing Forbes. He made Murray run around like a chicken without a head covering for Forbes. He made Murray constantly look over his shoulder at his teammates defender instead of his. Murray forgot how to play 1v1 defense because he didn't play any all year long. It ruined Murray's instincts and made him feel like he had to take all sorts of gambles on defense since they were going to score on Forbes anyways. It also affected his zone defense because like I said, Forbes can't guard shit in any type of D and Murray was covering for him in zone as well.

But DJ can't dribble. he can't penetrate defenses consistently, and he can't shoot the 3. He needs to be able to do 1 of the 3 if he wants to stay on the team. I prefer he picks up the latter. Because if he could shoot VOLUME 3's at 37-39% then our offense would be amazing and he would be a perfect fit in our system. Let Derrick run the show, he kicks out to DJ who now has a credible jumper and the opponent must close out fast to contest, and he can now pump fake and get to the lane easier with a shaky handle. I said this in the beginning of the season, If Murray and White weren't shooting 4-5 threes a game, then this was a waste of a season. White caught on. Murray needs to join the program or adios. Good luck in NY

[ragas]

Klutch Sports let Dejounte sign a 16m per year contract, when Jamal Murray got 34m and D'Angelo Russell 29m per year. Even Terry Rozier earns 19m. There has to be a reason for the "discount". Think about that.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Pop doesn't know shit about bringing up a point guard. I still say he ruined Tony Parker's career in the beginning. He made Parker into what he wanted, which is a damn good PG to be sure, but imagine if Pop let Parker run loose and play more fast break early on. I think that's part of why we in such a rut offensively in the early 2000's, if anyone remembers us winning games like 78-74 or 82-80. Pop didn't really know how to run an offense back then, he just gave the ball to Duncan and it worked, I'm not hating on that philosophy at all, but it wasn't exactly good for Tony Parker.

To Pop's credit however, he spent literally all of last year giving Murray tape to watch, letting him call plays, sitting in on coaches meetings. Murray had one year of uninterrupted time to learn the offense and he still looks completely lost. Pop did ruin Murray's defense though simply by playing Forbes. He made Murray run around like a chicken without a head covering for Forbes. He made Murray constantly look over his shoulder at his teammates defender instead of his. Murray forgot how to play 1v1 defense because he didn't play any all year long. It ruined Murray's instincts and made him feel like he had to take all sorts of gambles on defense since they were going to score on Forbes anyways. It also affected his zone defense because like I said, Forbes can't guard shit in any type of D and Murray was covering for him in zone as well.

But DJ can't dribble. he can't penetrate defenses consistently, and he can't shoot the 3. He needs to be able to do 1 of the 3 if he wants to stay on the team. I prefer he picks up the latter. Because if he could shoot VOLUME 3's at 37-39% then our offense would be amazing and he would be a perfect fit in our system. Let Derrick run the show, he kicks out to DJ who now has a credible jumper and the opponent must close out fast to contest, and he can now pump fake and get to the lane easier with a shaky handle. I said this in the beginning of the season, If Murray and White weren't shooting 4-5 threes a game, then this was a waste of a season. White caught on. Murray needs to join the program or adios. Good luck in NY

To be fair, White only caught on to the need to shoot 3s like a week ago.

[Dejounte]

I'm not defending DJ when I say this, but I think people forget how badly run our offense looked when it was led by Corey Joseph or Patty Mills. Especially Patty Mills. Fucking hated Patty with a passion two or three years ago. Hes bearable now because he comes in short bursts and doesnt miss everything.

[cjw]

Walker and Johnson could both have higher upside than Murray, and are cost controlled for two and three more years, each. And are two and three years younger, respectively.

White is older, but a much more complete player. He’s going to get paid this offseason.

This period is really an experiment to see how these guys all gel together.

[Dingle Barry]

They already have that with DWhite tbh. Priority is finding a 3/4 combo IMO.

White can definitely do those things. But he's not really a natural PG and I like him more at the 2.

[C-Dub]

There's a lot of people on this forum saying that DJM is not true PG but Pop has said that there is no such position on the current Spurs team and with the current roster that is correct and there's nothing wrong with it. It's okay to have multiple players whom can somewhat handle the rock and initiate the offense in DJM, White, LW4, Mills and QW. As for DJM, in his 1st year with the Spurs he didn't get much playing time like all the other young players on the team. In his second year he earned 2nd team all defense award and we saw him as a potential 15-8-8 player with great D and could possibly gaurd the 1-3 position which is awesome. Then in year 3 the very bad season injury happened that ended his season before it even started. 4th year on minutes restrictions and trying to acclimate with the starting lineup and 1st year really starting to start the season. Give the man at least another full season to show that he can be a big part of this team moving forward. By the time he's 26 years old barring any major injuries, I feel that he will be that 15-8-8 guy and accomplishing more triple doubles than any current or past Spur player. The Spurs best player in 2 to 3 years will be KJ like I've mentioned a few times before but DJM will be a big part to the Spurs puzzle moving forward along with White and Poeltl. I really like LW4 as well but not sure if the Spurs will be able to pay all 5 in the coming years.

[exstatic]

Klutch Sports let Dejounte sign a 16m per year contract, when Jamal Murray got 34m and D'Angelo Russell 29m per year. Even Terry Rozier earns 19m. There has to be a reason for the "discount". Think about that.

He not very good, and was coming off a catastrophic injury. That’s why they signed at a discount.

[exstatic]

White can definitely do those things. But he's not really a natural PG and I like him more at the 2.

He’s a far better PG or distributor, or whatever you want to call it than DJ.

[Dingle Barry]

He’s a far better PG or distributor, or whatever you want to call it than DJ.

No doubt.

[MultiTroll]

He’s a far better PG or distributor, or whatever you want to call it than DJ.
When do you think your idol gawd coach will recognize this?
Ever?

[duncan2k5]

Ppl comparing white to DJ... LMFAO! White is a whole 2 years older, not to mention DJ missed an entire year of development... Two years ago this whole forum was saying White was trash... Lolol

[Chinook]

Pretty sure "this forum" was you and a couple of other Murray stans.

[K...]

Spurs need a veteran pg to work with Murray. He's way too limited to pencil as a guaranteed starter and younger guys are very hungry for his minutes.

Pop wanted to design a run first offense for him, but we have enough guards to do that. And you still need bb iq for that.

[RC_Drunkford]

Pop needs to take the ball off his hands. Make White the PG with DeRozan as the main playmaker. Murray should stay on the wings waiting for kick outs to either take a spot up Jumper or attack the basket with an unbalanced defense. It would simplify the game for him.

this. Put him in the Danny Green role. He’s too loose with the ball, but has better handles and midrange game than Danny. The focus has to be his 3-point shooting

[gambit1990]

https://i.imgur.com/VuFg5eh.png



white / keldon / middleton / la / lopez

[DAF86]

It just hit me that we could have traded Aldridge and Murray for TJ Warren, when he was still with the Suns. :(

[DAF86]

https://i.imgur.com/VuFg5eh.png



white / keldon / middleton / la / lopez

The Bucks would never go for that.

[r0drig0lac]

https://i.imgur.com/VuFg5eh.png



white / keldon / middleton / la / lopez

haha

[DAF86]

It just hit me that we could have traded Aldridge and Murray for TJ Warren, when he was still with the Suns. :(

https://fadeawayworld.net/2019/12/02/suns-could-target-lamarcus-aldridge/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2793549-nba-trade-rumors-suns-still-looking-for-starting-pg-after-ryan-anderson-deal.amp.html

Suns would have gotten Aldridge and their "starting point Guard", and the Spurs would have gotten that much needed stretch 4. What could have been. :depressed

[Dejounte]

Jesus man up and move on. How long did yall get over your first girlfriend? A decade? Holy shit...

[DAF86]

Jesus man up and move on. How long did yall get over your first girlfriend? A decade? Holy shit...

Dude you need to take like 50 chill pills. It seems like every other post here gets your panties in a bunch. :lol

[Dhbsr555]

haha
Lol giving up on luka this early horrible idea

[Dejounte]

Dude you need to take like 50 chill pills. It seems like every other post here gets your panties in a bunch. :lol

Im honestly not being that serious. It is annoying though... Like how do yall deal with life

[DAF86]

Im honestly not being that serious. It is annoying though... Like how do yall deal with life

I'm honestly not being that serious.

[gambit1990]

Lol giving up on luka this early horrible idea
you have to give up players to get players. you can't just trade forbes and expect a worthy return. spurs would get a solid C and an all star SF.

[jeebus]

you have to give up players to get players. you can't just trade forbes and expect a worthy return. spurs would get a solid C and an all star SF.
Trade? I'd love to just cut Forbes and be done with it.

[Dhbsr555]

Nah I ain’t down for giving up on luka he has potential

[duncan2k5]

Pretty sure "this forum" was you and a couple of other Murray stans.

Bro I've said from day 1 we should play White...I'm not like u idiots that can't see good players before they blossom...and I'm not on the camp where it needs to be one or the other...I've been saying BOTH need to play even when the forum was bashing both as trash

[Chinook]

Bro I've said from day 1 we should play White...I'm not like u idiots that can't see good players before they blossom...and I'm not on the camp where it needs to be one or the other...I've been saying BOTH need to play even when the forum was bashing both as trash

Nah, I'm pretty sure you were there on the anti-White side.

[duncan2k5]

Spurs need a veteran pg to work with Murray. He's way too limited to pencil as a guaranteed starter and younger guys are very hungry for his minutes.

Pop wanted to design a run first offense for him, but we have enough guards to do that. And you still need bb iq for that.

What run first offense? Lol...pop never designed anything like that...you have LMA on the court pouting whenever he doesn't get his post ups and DDR pouting when he doesn't get his iso fadeaway midrangers...the young guys that wanna run were set up for failure from the beginning...this is why we look MUCH better with Poetl in the game instead of LMA...now we need to permanently get rid of DDR and LMA...2 "stars" and we can't even make the playoffs

[Gagnrath]

What run first offense? Lol...pop never designed anything like that...you have LMA on the court pouting whenever he doesn't get his post ups and DDR pouting when he doesn't get his iso fadeaway midrangers...the young guys that wanna run were set up for failure from the beginning...this is why we look MUCH better with Poetl in the game instead of LMA...now we need to permanently get rid of DDR and LMA...2 "stars" and we can't even make the playoffs

LMA pouting about no post ups? No pouting about not getting short/midrange soft fadeaways..... If he consistently had a hard power move to the basket then LMA would have been a potential hall of famer and one of the best players of the 2010s he just never like operating as a banger inside. He was good at it when he chose to do t but he rarely has.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

There are teams that would probably covet Murray. My hope is that the Spurs will do everything they can to get better.

[duncan2k5]

Nah, I'm pretty sure you were there on the anti-White side.

Bet me...look up my posts from years ago

[duncan2k5]

LMA pouting about no post ups? No pouting about not getting short/midrange soft fadeaways..... If he consistently had a hard power move to the basket then LMA would have been a potential hall of famer and one of the best players of the 2010s he just never like operating as a banger inside. He was good at it when he chose to do t but he rarely has.

Truth

[Chinook]

Bet me...look up my posts from years ago

It's a waste of time. I'm pretty sure you were on the anti-White campaign and are now just trying to flip.

[BackHome]

He took the White Pill.

[duncan2k5]

U are very wrong... I've been saying the old guys need to go to make way for white and Murray...

[DJR210]

I don't hate the kid but it's pretty obvious him being the Spurs next PG was stupid as fuck. His IQ is terrible he can't dribble or finish at the rim and he can't shoot. Idk how they thought they were gonna turn him into TP

I think he could be really useful as our 6th man.. but that means he comes in and lights up the score board, get a steal or two.. Our version of Jamal Crawford. He needs to be able to shoot the 3 at an efficient rate for this to make sense.. Would he even embrace this role, or would it be a demotion to him? I would bet on the latter.

[exstatic]

I think he could be really useful as our 6th man.. but that means he comes in and lights up the score board, get a steal or two.. Our version of Jamal Crawford. He needs to be able to shoot the 3 at an efficient rate for this to make sense.. Would he even embrace this role, or would it be a demotion to him? I would bet on the latter.

When they tried this, briefly, a year or two ago, he unfollowed the Spurs Twitter account.

[DJR210]

When they tried this, briefly, a year or two ago, he unfollowed the Spurs Twitter account.

Yeah, I remember. They would probably have to bring in Manu to speak some sense into him.

[DAF86]

Sign and trade with Denver for Jeremi Grant.

[Dejounte]

Happy birthday to the greatest point guard of all time!

[spurspl]

only 24 yo and already a best point guard in nba, we are lucky to have him

[RD2191]

Dude's a scrub. Trade him.

[RC_Drunkford]

:downspin::rolleyes
Happy birthday to the greatest point guard of all time!

[BillMc]

I think he could be really useful as our 6th man.. but that means he comes in and lights up the score board, get a steal or two.. Our version of Jamal Crawford. He needs to be able to shoot the 3 at an efficient rate for this to make sense.. Would he even embrace this role, or would it be a demotion to him? I would bet on the latter.

I think he views himself as a star or star in the making. He was crowned as Parker's heir (a mistake). When he's a starter he says the right things, but every time he comes off the bench his body language is terrible.

[XDT76]

If he follows Kawhi's developement of being a 3 and D in his first 2 years before adding layers to his game, he could be a better player today. Instead we expect him to do too much too earlier.

[ZeusWillJudge]

When they tried this, briefly, a year or two ago, he unfollowed the Spurs Twitter account.


I think he views himself as a star or star in the making. He was crowned as Parker's heir (a mistake). When he's a starter he says the right things, but every time he comes off the bench his body language is terrible.


If you're going to have that attitude, you better be a genuine star to justify it. He ain't that.

[Dverde]

He would be better if he concentrated more on defense and running the plays. We got plenty of scorers.

[ginobilized]

If only he could run the offense as well as he runs his mouth.
My hope was that he could evolve into a Rondo type guard. Don't see that happening anymore.

More and more, I hope we do draft a point guard that challenges for his spot on day 1.

[R. DeMurre]

This year was definitely disappointing with regards to Murray. He looks like he's better suited at SG, where his rebounding skills can be allowed to flourish. Derrick and Keldon took clear steps forward in the bubble and now look like the future. I'm guessing the Spurs write off this season as a post surgery year for him and give him one more year to show real growth. He got paid on potential, which hasn't materialized yet.

[kobyz]

I wish we can trade him to the Knicks for the 8th pick

[wildbill2u]

Murray still has the deficiencies he had when he came into the league. The guy has terrible handle with his dribble too high and is susceptible to steals and inability to drive into coverage. His shot is still a "work in progress" but he ain't progressed very much. He has some raw skills on defense but no BBIQ when it comes to settling down and running an offense. If someone will take him as a work in progresss with a high ceiling, don't disabuse them of their error and make a decent, if not great, trade.

Walker is another work in progress who needs to learn how to finish a layup or a dunk. (face palm) That's a beginning for a completely unready but good physical specimen. An outside shot would be nice if it could be managed in the next season, but at least he has some potential star value.

We can't keep two works in progress at the guard position.

[The Truth #6]

Murray made progress this year with his midrange game. That’s one thing I noticed. He hasn’t improved as fast as we want but he is still improving. Is he really a point guard? No. Would I trade him for a good offer? Sure. I find it highly unlikely the Spurs will trade him. If Presti was still around then I would think differently.

[mo7888]

Murray made progress this year with his midrange game. That’s one thing I noticed. He hasn’t improved as fast as we want but he is still improving. Is he really a point guard? No. Would I trade him for a good offer? Sure. I find it highly unlikely the Spurs will trade him. If Presti was still around then I would think differently.

I think they are moving either Murray or White thos off-season, probably at the draft. To me White is the better player but, Murray may have more upside. I think Murray will be more valuable or shall I say I think he'll bring back more based on the perception of his upside.

[The Truth #6]

I think they are moving either Murray or White thos off-season, probably at the draft. To me White is the better player but, Murray may have more upside. I think Murray will be more valuable or shall I say I think he'll bring back more based on the perception of his upside.

I disagree. I don’t think they will end up trading anybody. And I think White has higher value. But we’ll see.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

Murray still has the deficiencies he had when he came into the league. The guy has terrible handle with his dribble too high and is susceptible to steals and inability to drive into coverage. His shot is still a "work in progress" but he ain't progressed very much. He has some raw skills on defense but no BBIQ when it comes to settling down and running an offense. If someone will take him as a work in progresss with a high ceiling, don't disabuse them of their error and make a decent, if not great, trade.

Walker is another work in progress who needs to learn how to finish a layup or a dunk. (face palm) That's a beginning for a completely unready but good physical specimen. An outside shot would be nice if it could be managed in the next season, but at least he has some potential star value.

We can't keep two works in progress at the guard position.



this statement is disingenuous at best. Lmao.

I’m not a huge Murray fan but his shooting is way better than it was before. His pull up jumper was something he didn’t even have until this season. In the past he would try to shoot floaters from jump shot territory which was awful. His free throw % went up with similar amount of attempts, 3 point % went up with more attempts, and his overall field goal % went up also. The numbers back up the eye test that he was shooting the ball with more confidence than ever before.

Murray does make bone headed decisions with passing and handling the basketball though so I agree with you on that.

Lonnie Walker pretty much played his rookie season last year because he only played in 17 games as a rookie. He has a very good looking shooting stroke and shot well from 3. He also has a good pull up midrange jump shot. His biggest offensive issue is the fact that he does need to embrace drawing and trying to finish through contact. His handle could be better but he is so damn quick he can get by for now with what he has. Dude just needs to get stronger and emulate Keldon Johnson when it comes to seeking out contact at the rim. Lol

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

I say all I did above to say I wouldn’t be mad if the traded Murray. Lmao. I think he isn’t as good as a lot Spurs fans make him out to be. I always thought Murray wasn’t really a point guard and White was the better point guard of the two.

So if they could get a draft pick or a young guy who is solid at the 3 or 4 spot, I wouldn’t be mad at them trading Murray.

[DAF86]

I think they are moving either Murray or White thos off-season, probably at the draft. To me White is the better player but, Murray may have more upside. I think Murray will be more valuable or shall I say I think he'll bring back more based on the perception of his upside.

That ship sailed a long time ago. Murray should already realize that the best way for him to maximize his value as an NBA player is to commit to the 3 and D role.

I swear Murray is gonna be 30 and folks will still be talking about his "higher upside", tbh. :lol

[rankingtear]

Is everybody ignoring that White regressed last season at point guard prior to the bubble. It was only when he played off-ball next to Murray that he shined. White was still the closing point guard and he played down to expectations. Do you guys still think White is better at lead guard or off-ball secondary ballhandler, cause all evidence points to the latter. White lack of first step does not matter on closeouts and cuts.

[BackHome]

this statement is disingenuous at best. Lmao.

I’m not a huge Murray fan but his shooting is way better than it was before. His pull up jumper was something he didn’t even have until this season. In the past he would try to shoot floaters from jump shot territory which was awful. His free throw % went up with similar amount of attempts, 3 point % went up with more attempts, and his overall field goal % went up also. The numbers back up the eye test that he was shooting the ball with more confidence than ever before.

Murray does make bone headed decisions with passing and handling the basketball though so I agree with you on that.

Lonnie Walker pretty much played his rookie season last year because he only played in 17 games as a rookie. He has a very good looking shooting stroke and shot well from 3. He also has a good pull up midrange jump shot. His biggest offensive issue is the fact that he does need to embrace drawing and trying to finish through contact. His handle could be better but he is so damn quick he can get by for now with what he has. Dude just needs to get stronger and emulate Keldon Johnson when it comes to seeking out contact at the rim. Lol

I wonder if he is worried about his knee and that is why he is not taking it to the rim with authority?

[BackHome]

Is everybody ignoring that White regressed last season at point guard prior to the bubble. It was only when he played off-ball next to Murray that he shined. White was still the closing point guard and he played down to expectations. Do you guys still think White is better at lead guard or off-ball secondary ballhandler, cause all evidence points to the latter. White lack of first step does not matter on closeouts and cuts.

I think White makes a good PG and a good SG the issue is that when he plays with Derozz he pretty much is a SG as Derozz requires the ball in his hands more.

I would only trade Murray if it was for a pick 4 to 8 range but it would be straight up trade meaning I am not trading Murray and our pick 11 just to pick four or five picks earlier.

[buttsR4rebounding]

I think Murray is traded before the start of next season. His removal of his IG workout manifesto and replacing with the uncertain future comment combined with different players sending him the black heart emoji makes me think PATFO told him he could be traded or he would be coming off the bench. I don’t think the Spurs signed him to that extension to come off the bench.

[Dejounte]

I think Murray is traded before the start of next season. His removal of his IG workout manifesto and replacing with the uncertain future comment combined with different players sending him the black heart emoji makes me think PATFO told him he could be traded or he would be coming off the bench. I don’t think the Spurs signed him to that extension to come off the bench.

Which pictures do you mean by "workout manifesto"?

[mo7888]

That ship sailed a long time ago. Murray should already realize that the best way for him to maximize his value as an NBA player is to commit to the 3 and D role.

I swear Murray is gonna be 30 and folks will still be talking about his "higher upside", tbh. :lol

You may be absolutely right...and your opinion is the consensus here on ST but, I think its different around the league.

[DAF86]

You may be absolutely right...and your opinion is the consensus here on ST but, I think its different around the league.

Hopefully that's the case and the Spurs sell high on him. Although I doubt the Spurs trade him at all.

[mo7888]

Hopefully that's the case and the Spurs sell high on him. Although I doubt the Spurs trade him at all.

That's my hope...sell high..

[rankingtear]

You may be absolutely right...and your opinion is the consensus here on ST but, I think its different around the league.

Yeah, Sam Vecenie of the athletic still ranks Dejounte as the best young player of the spurs ahead of White in his top 50 rookie scale prospect rankings. I think Dejounte is 32 while White is 38 overall. Keldon and Lonnie are still unranked.

[DJR210]

I think he views himself as a star or star in the making. He was crowned as Parker's heir (a mistake). When he's a starter he says the right things, but every time he comes off the bench his body language is terrible.

Yeah he caries himself professionally the same way he does on his IG

[Chinook]

It's crazy how much ST has swung on Murray. There was a time when I was dying on a hill of "Murray's defense is overrated". I went back and read through some of those threads just now. It was an ocean of people saying he was a mini-Kawhi. It was exhausting at the time, but I do feel vindicated somewhat. I wish I'd been wrong though. As I've said before, the biggest issue is Murray's attitude. His production is overrated, but it's still fine and could be really good with the right role. But he has never seemed willing to do that, even when he was a rookie. He always seemed to think success would just fall to him. Like sure, he'd "work" and reach that level on his own, but it'd be like a Rocky montage where he would inevitably over the course of some pre-determined steps get to the top of that staircase.

But no, he's been too meta about this from the start. He was talking about how he had graduated from the d-league after his first true call-up. He kept framing his benchings as a process young players go through. He always focused on the flashy things rather than the fundamental things. And it sucks. I wish he was right and was basically De'Aaron Fox or SGA right now. I wish his swagger and loyalty were the start of a movement. But he's not, and it's not, and they won't be. He needs a fresh start, hopefully from a place that values him and has something SA wants. Atlanta is a good option, as is GS. I don't really think Detroit is, but they might be able to use him. The Spurs need to move on, because it seems like the relationship is on the verge of turning cancerous. He's totally a wolf held by the ears right now.

[mo7888]

It's crazy how much ST has swung on Murray. There was a time when I was dying on a hill of "Murray's defense is overrated". I went back and read through some of those threads just now. It was an ocean of people saying he was a mini-Kawhi. It was exhausting at the time, but I do feel vindicated somewhat. I wish I'd been wrong though. As I've said before, the biggest issue is Murray's attitude. His production is overrated, but it's still fine and could be really good with the right role. But he has never seemed willing to do that, even when he was a rookie. He always seemed to think success would just fall to him. Like sure, he'd "work" and reach that level on his own, but it'd be like a Rocky montage where he would inevitably over the course of some pre-determined steps get to the top of that staircase.

But no, he's been too meta about this from the start. He was talking about how he had graduated from the d-league after his first true call-up. He kept framing his benchings as a process young players go through. He always focused on the flashy things rather than the fundamental things. And it sucks. I wish he was right and was basically De'Aaron Fox or SGA right now. I wish his swagger and loyalty were the start of a movement. But he's not, and it's not, and they won't be. He needs a fresh start, hopefully from a place that values him and has something SA wants. Atlanta is a good option, as is GS. I don't really think Detroit is, but they might be able to use him. The Spurs need to move on, because it seems like the relationship is on the verge of turning cancerous. He's totally a wolf held by the ears right now.

I could see Atlanta or Detroit trading their pick for him. I think he'd fit great in GS but, whst would a trade like that look like in your opinion?

[JuneJive]

For all the flaws he has, what use would he be to another club?

And why wouldn't those reasons apply here, in SA?

[TD 21]

It's crazy how much ST has swung on Murray. There was a time when I was dying on a hill of "Murray's defense is overrated". I went back and read through some of those threads just now. It was an ocean of people saying he was a mini-Kawhi. It was exhausting at the time, but I do feel vindicated somewhat. I wish I'd been wrong though. As I've said before, the biggest issue is Murray's attitude. His production is overrated, but it's still fine and could be really good with the right role. But he has never seemed willing to do that, even when he was a rookie. He always seemed to think success would just fall to him. Like sure, he'd "work" and reach that level on his own, but it'd be like a Rocky montage where he would inevitably over the course of some pre-determined steps get to the top of that staircase.

But no, he's been too meta about this from the start. He was talking about how he had graduated from the d-league after his first true call-up. He kept framing his benchings as a process young players go through. He always focused on the flashy things rather than the fundamental things. And it sucks. I wish he was right and was basically De'Aaron Fox or SGA right now. I wish his swagger and loyalty were the start of a movement. But he's not, and it's not, and they won't be. He needs a fresh start, hopefully from a place that values him and has something SA wants. Atlanta is a good option, as is GS. I don't really think Detroit is, but they might be able to use him. The Spurs need to move on, because it seems like the relationship is on the verge of turning cancerous. He's totally a wolf held by the ears right now.

The Hawks are a terrible option. They need a play maker who can play alongside Young some and/or back him up and they're in position to select just that with Haliburton at 6.

The Warriors are another terrible option. They have a bloated payroll as is, are in win now mode and probably looking to make a significant move.

The Pistons are a perfect fit. They need a "PG" (even though he's not a real one), depth of youth period and Weaver came from the athleticism obsessed Thunder. Unless there's a player available at 7 who they view as having star potential, a trade centered on Murray and 11 for 7 and filler makes a lot of sense for both teams.

[Dverde]

Spurs will not trade him this offseason. It would mean the contract was a mistake. Spurs don’t go out of their way to say the screwed up. I’m fine with Murray staying.

[Rusty]

Instagram Baller getting traded? Shouldl've spent less time on IG and more working on that jumpshot

[Chinook]

People need to recalibrate what it means to trade a player. It's not a punishment. You don't trade bad players. You trade to get something, not to get rid of something.

[XDT76]

He could still come good if he take a step back and concentrate in a 3/Slash and D role first. His main problem is trying to do too much too soon.

[rankingtear]

Quietly, Murray has also improved his jump shot, which to this point has been his Achilles heel. He hit 50.4 percent of his pull-up shots from midrange this season, a figure that ranks sixth in the NBA. -expressnews


When looking at point guards, we know pull-up shooting is an important skill, and without it, it’s very hard to score, unless you’re a Russell Westbrook-type athlete that can bully your way to the rim. -fansided

[tbdog]

People need to recalibrate what it means to trade a player. It's not a punishment. You don't trade bad players. You trade to get something, not to get rid of something.

Also Point Guards in general take more time to get good. Murrray has time and a nice contract. He will have a plus career unless further injuries derail him.

[Chinook]

Also Point Guards in general take more time to get good. Murrray has time and a nice contract. He will have a plus career unless further injuries derail him.

Oh I don't really agree there. I'd definitely be keen to trade Murray if there's something good to be had. I am okay with giving him another year in a vacuum, but he's a risk of becoming a cancer if the team doesn't keep him in the first unit, and that's just not okay. He's clearly the odd man out of White, Walker and Johnson in terms of skill-set and fit. He'd be fine off the bench, maybe even good. But that doesn't seem to be in the cards. I certainly don't think he's a good contract unless he gets way better at playing basketball.

But the reason they should look to trade Murray is because he's the most expendable and the team has needs, not because he sucks and people don't want to keep looking at him.

[talkspurs]

Oh I don't really agree there. I'd definitely be keen to trade Murray if there's something good to be had. I am okay with giving him another year in a vacuum, but he's a risk of becoming a cancer if the team doesn't keep him in the first unit, and that's just not okay. He's clearly the odd man out of White, Walker and Johnson in terms of skill-set and fit. He'd be fine off the bench, maybe even good. But that doesn't seem to be in the cards. I certainly don't think he's a good contract unless he gets way better at playing basketball.


But the reason they should look to trade Murray is because he's the most expendable and the team has needs, not because he sucks and people don't want to keep looking at him.

Why do you feel Walker is better then him. I would say it is the prevailing thought on here but I dissagree with it. Johnson I think has shown more at his young age. White I think is a bout even but had a better bubble. He also seems to drop when placed on the bench. Walker has not shown much. He had a Flash game or two but not even as many as murray.

[Chinook]

I've talked about why I think Walker is a better candidate to keep that Murray in a lot of places, even in this thread, I think. A short rehash is that Murray doesn't really have skills that win basketball games besides rebounding. He's not a good shooter, an overrated defender, a horrible driver and facilitator. He's an energy player, and his first year-and-a-half in the league he played that role pretty well. But he basically developed really badly and picked up relatively useless skills like a mid-range pull-up rather than a reliable set-shot from three. It makes it so his only path to build on his skills is to dominate the ball, and he's just not good at it.

Out of who's "better" between him and Walker? Eh. It's not really the point. Walker is already a better three-and-D player since he's a good corner shooter and a stronger defender. But if we're talking about potential, it's not close. Lonnie has way more physical talent than Murray. DJM worked for two years on that pull-up two, and Lonnie's is still way better, faster, more elevation. Finishing at the rim is an issue for Lonnie, but getting there isn't. He has a tremendous burst that can bend a defense. Play-making? They told Lonnie to start doing that on the side, and he's already able to leverage his athleticism into easy buckets. Add in the extra year and not being a time bomb, and there's no question. Lonnie or no, I don't want Murray starting with White. It doesn't make the team better.

[spurraider21]

Spurs will not trade him this offseason. It would mean the contract was a mistake. Spurs don’t go out of their way to say the screwed up. I’m fine with Murray staying.
traded a first round pick just to dump RJ

[Atl Spur]

Murray would be better served on another team; white,Lonnie, Keldon works for me moving forward. The spurs did Murray a solid for being a good soldier but just doesn’t fit here anymore. They’ll try to place him with a team he can be excited about I suspect....

[talkspurs]

I've talked about why I think Walker is a better candidate to keep that Murray in a lot of places, even in this thread, I think. A short rehash is that Murray doesn't really have skills that win basketball games besides rebounding. He's not a good shooter, an overrated defender, a horrible driver and facilitator. He's an energy player, and his first year-and-a-half in the league he played that role pretty well. But he basically developed really badly and picked up relatively useless skills like a mid-range pull-up rather than a reliable set-shot from three. It makes it so his only path to build on his skills is to dominate the ball, and he's just not good at it.

Out of who's "better" between him and Walker? Eh. It's not really the point. Walker is already a better three-and-D player since he's a good corner shooter and a stronger defender. But if we're talking about potential, it's not close. Lonnie has way more physical talent than Murray. DJM worked for two years on that pull-up two, and Lonnie's is still way better, faster, more elevation. Finishing at the rim is an issue for Lonnie, but getting there isn't. He has a tremendous burst that can bend a defense. Play-making? They told Lonnie to start doing that on the side, and he's already able to leverage his athleticism into easy buckets. Add in the extra year and not being a time bomb, and there's no question. Lonnie or no, I don't want Murray starting with White. It doesn't make the team better.

I think you underrate his defense and his shooting. I also dont think walker is a better 3 and D player. Murray is better a defense and not much difference in 3s. I also would say future they both have a ways to go but Murray has shown more. Walker has had a few good games and I dont think he has had a solid stretch yet of putting games together or even 3/5.

[RC_Drunkford]

Chinook is right, Walker is already a better shooter, ballhandler and facilitator than Murray. I still give DJ the benefit of a doubt for next season though. If he doesn't show significant improvements than you gotta move him

[spurspl]

Chinook is right, Walker is already a better shooter, ballhandler and facilitator than Murray. I still give DJ the benefit of a doubt for next season though. If he doesn't show significant improvements than you gotta move him

thats a hell of a risky benefit for DJ.

[Sugus]

I think you underrate his defense and his shooting. I also dont think walker is a better 3 and D player. Murray is better a defense and not much difference in 3s. I also would say future they both have a ways to go but Murray has shown more. Walker has had a few good games and I dont think he has had a solid stretch yet of putting games together or even 3/5.

I'd love to see some actual statistics on both players' defense, tbh. But the eye test doesn't agree with you - Dejounte's effort on D has been quite suspect this year, especially in the bubble, oftentimes getting caught over-helping and gambling for steals instead of just staying in front of his man. I don't know if Lonnie is the better defender in all facets (man-to-man, zone, help), but DJ has a very big flaw, which permeates both his D and O: he has low BBIQ. Take the bubble game against Philly for example... That last defensive play was just bad BBIQ. And the thing about low IQ players, is that oftentimes they get on by with their pure skills, until the games inevitably start to matter more, slow down, become chess matches... And then, your player is just going to fail you. I see DJ as a player with a very real, and not very high, ceiling, because of this. He also lacks everything that can't be taught to a PG, from vision, to passing instincts, to IQ, and also things that can be taught, like dribbling skills.

As for their shooting, Lonnie is definitely the better shooter. Murray has made some strides, especially this season, which I won't deny - and yet, DJ sits at .369% 3P% for the season in 1.7 3PA per game, whilst Lonnie is at .406% with exactly the same number of APG. And it's not only the stats, the eye test backs it up too - Lonnie's form is smooth, quick, high-release and repeatable. Dejounte invariably overthinks or outright denies himself a shot opportunity if he catches the ball beyond the 3pt line, even if there's nobody guarding him; talking about making contested 3pt shots is a pipe dream at this point. I'd say that's a pretty big difference: even if Walker were the worse shooter, which isn't the case, the sheer fact that he does not hesitate to shoot, and actively seeks to create these shots for himself, is extremely telling. I don't care much about DJ's midrange-pullups, I agree with Chinook's reasoning on it.

I'll say that Lonnie isn't a perfect player by any measures, though. He has a lot of work to do - his zone defense is lackadaisical, his man-to-man could use further work, and he really needs to learn how to move off-ball instead of stand in the corner waiting for a pass, Rockettes-style. But between him and Dejounte, there's a clear difference, and it's a a simple pick in terms of which prospect I'd rather ship out. When you take into account both players' ages and years in the league, it becomes a no-brainer.

[rankingtear]

I don't know why you guys are comparing DJ to Lonnie because they have different roles and guard different types of players. Lonnie and Keldon have the more overlap on play types and people they guard. If you give Lonnie the possesions DJ is getting you would want to trade him too. Most of DJ possesion is as a pick and roll ballhandler and iso, same shot profile as Derozan. Lonnie is on spotups mostly same with Keldon.

Lonnie is shooting 28% on midrange jumpers , 34% on long 2's and 36% on corner threes, dejounte on the other hand is 49% on midrange, 43% on long 2's and 39% on corner threes.

[Chinook]

I don't know why you guys are comparing DJ to Lonnie because they have different roles and guard different types of players. Lonnie and Keldon have the more overlap on play types and people they guard. If you give Lonnie the possesions DJ is getting you would want to trade him too. Most of DJ possesion is as a pick and roll ballhandler and iso, same shot profile as Derozan. Lonnie is on spotups mostly same with Keldon.

Lonnie is shooting 28% on midrange jumpers , 34% on long 2's and 36% on corner threes, dejounte on the other hand is 49% on midrange, 43% on long 2's and 39% on corner threes.

Nah. Murray doesn't have a role on the team. He chooses to shoot shitty mid-range shots. Yes, he's actually good at them, but it also highlights that they aren't a great shot to be good at anyway.

I'd be totally down with giving Walker more ball-handling responsibilities. He has way more upside there than DeJounte. If anything Murray needs to start getting more "Walker/Johnson" attempts and lay off trying to be a primary ball-handler.

[Chinook]

And this also continues to miss the point. It doesn't matter if Murray were the better than Walker, even in the future. Trading Murray is about avoiding a situation where he can't stand being benched. And with his desired skill-set, he has no place with White and DeRozan or Johnson. If the Spurs draft Vassel or Nesmith at 11, then that might also make Walker redundant, but it won't make trading Murray any less desirable. Walker's skill-set and demeanor fit just fine on the team, Nesmith, Murray or no. DJM isn't there.

[RC_Drunkford]

thats a hell of a risky benefit for DJ.

He had an injury that made him sit out a whole season. That's 1 year less development. He had to work on getting his body ready more than actual basketball skills. Next season he really has to show significant improvements when his new contract kick in. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to pay him that much.

[talkspurs]

the shot difference on makes is .1. yes the percentage shows a difference but the makes/ misses does not. DJm also has a much better ast/to ratio. I also see more fight in Murray and wanting to lead. Lonnie seems fine to be a follwer and this is part of the reason why I dont see high hopes for him.

I will agree that Muray needs to stop gambling so much but part of that is what he is being told to do to cover up for forbes. Part of the reason I am so hopefull Forbes is not resigned is because he hurts the team in so many ways. Most players dont like coming off the bench. While he did mope so did white. Both of their production when down when they were demoted. I actually like white coming off the bench playing 30 min. Walker will also be coming up for an extension soon so his much lower salary will not be around for long.

[spurspl]

He had an injury that made him sit out a whole season. That's 1 year less development. He had to work on getting his body ready more than actual basketball skills. Next season he really has to show significant improvements when his new contract kick in. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to pay him that much.

the 1yr break could be a reason to give him one more chance but im afraid bourt his contract. His getting paid for potential. If he aint improve significantly next season nobody would want him. That would leave spurs with overpaid murray whose not worth for s5. As a 6th man maybe but the question is will he accept that role. If not spurs had a huge problem.
Now spurs can get a solid 1st rnd pick for him. I doubt we could get a late 1st rnd pick next yr when we assume that his improvement will be the same as this yr.

[exstatic]

He had an injury that made him sit out a whole season. That's 1 year less development. He had to work on getting his body ready more than actual basketball skills. Next season he really has to show significant improvements when his new contract kick in. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to pay him that much.

Right, but if he doesn’t develop more, you get less at the next deadline or next summer. Sell high only works if teams perceive that there could be more development to be had. If you show them that there isn’t, his value plummets. It’s also not like we’re short on young guards.

[cjw]

the 1yr break could be a reason to give him one more chance but im afraid bourt his contract. His getting paid for potential. If he aint improve significantly next season nobody would want him. That would leave spurs with overpaid murray whose not worth for s5. As a 6th man maybe but the question is will he accept that role. If not spurs had a huge problem.
Now spurs can get a solid 1st rnd pick for him. I doubt we could get a late 1st rnd pick next yr when we assume that his improvement will be the same as this yr.

I gave him a bit of a pass this year, as he lost a full year of development. But need to see his defense return to previous levels, plus shooting continue to improve:

- His 36-37% from three is acceptable, and if he can keep that in the mid-30s at higher volume, especially playing off the ball, he’s going to be an infinitely better fit on the floor with all lineups, particularly because the Spurs have other capable ball handlers

- Turnovers are down per 100 possessions, but not sure if that’s him handling the ball less. Needs to become a much better distributor if he’s going to have the ball in his hands.

- He’s serviceable when getting to the hoop at around 60%, and as others have mention he has a good mid-range game from 10 feet out (50%). He’s not good in between (3-10 feet, he’s at 33%) but still takes a lot of shots from there. To become more efficient, he needs to either take his shot from a bit further out... or take it to the rack and finish, or pass out if nothing is there.

He rebounds well for his position. He should be a good defender, but took a notable step back last year. I’m still optimistic that he’ll improve, but if the Spurs think he’s a bad fit or they want to go a different direction, now is the time to move him. If he plateaus next year, that option may not be there.

[Sugus]

I gave him a bit of a pass this year, as he lost a full year of development. But need to see his defense return to previous levels, plus shooting continue to improve:

- His 36-37% from three is acceptable, and if he can keep that in the mid-30s at higher volume, especially playing off the ball, he’s going to be an infinitely better fit on the floor with all lineups, particularly because the Spurs have other capable ball handlers

- Turnovers are down per 100 possessions, but not sure if that’s him handling the ball less. Needs to become a much better distributor if he’s going to have the ball in his hands.

- He’s serviceable when getting to the hoop at around 60%, and as others have mention he has a good mid-range game from 10 feet out (50%). He’s not good in between (3-10 feet, he’s at 33%) but still takes a lot of shots from there. To become more efficient, he needs to either take his shot from a bit further out... or take it to the rack and finish, or pass out if nothing is there.

He rebounds well for his position. He should be a good defender, but took a notable step back last year. I’m still optimistic that he’ll improve, but if the Spurs think he’s a bad fit or they want to go a different direction, now is the time to move him. If he plateaus next year, that option may not be there.

Don't be fooled by high shooting percentages on low volume or without adding some context to the stats, people. Especially for 3pt shooting. It's not about what % Dejounte is shooting... It's about how willing he is to let it fly, how willing he is to take a 3 on a pull-up versus a catch-and-shoot, it's about his decision-making and how he balances penetration with outside shooting (or in this case, fails to).

Dejounte does not play good off-ball offense. Where have y'all been seeing this to act like it's a real possibility? He's of little use if he doesn't have the ball in his hands. He's not much of a cutter at all, he FAR TOO OFTEN hesitates when receiving a pass beyond the 3pt line, not only taking away the opportunity for a rhythm 3, but also giving the defense time to adjust and recover, and also exposing the fact that he'd rather drive than shoot (which every single modern NBA defense is GLAD to see). He could be shooting 43% from 3 and the reasoning would be the same. I tend to agree with the fact that DJ is not a "true PG", but the truth is that he's hardly a "true SG" either. Besides the long midrange, already one of the most depreciated shots in the game and probably only going to lower in value, Dejounte is simply not a good shooter. Could he get better somewhat? Yes, years of training will surely provide modest improvements. But he's not a "natural" or born shooter, and that's something that you can't really change - definitely not something you want from your starting SG.

It's the same as with his vision, passing, dribbling, IQ. You're nigh-fantasizing that he can be a great player and earn his contract's worth, IF he can get significantly better in practically every area of his game. Some people might be okay with that gamble... I'd rather draft someone (in the Spurs case, give minutes to someone they've already drafted, like Lonnie at SG) who's a natural at these basic things, and has to work on more advanced areas of their game.

[TD 21]

The Spurs need to take a page out of the Heat's book. Yeah, they have the advantage of a glamor market to lure superstars/stars and as ever luck played a part, but they've also been flexible, unwilling to let ego or emotions get in the way of what's best for the franchise.

They gave bloated contracts to middling youngish veterans (Whiteside, Waiters, etc.), but didn't hesitate to have them take a back seat to middling youth (Richardson and Winslow). After empowering/extending said youth, they realized they weren't good enough for central roles, so they traded them and did the same with better youth (Adebayo, Herro, etc.)

This organization needs to practice what they preach and get over themselves. For the first time in a long time, they've accumulated depth of youth. The next step is targeting specifics by looking to parlay the looming problem that is Murray (plus 11) into a potential core piece.

[BackHome]

I am open to trading him but if we are actually going to get value for him is the question or let me ask this question what would you be willing to trade him for lets say 8 - 12th pick or 16 - 16thpick or 16 -24 pick? What pick would you say OK we are not getting perceived value for this trade would it be anything after 25?

[Chinook]

I am open to trading him but if we are actually going to get value for him is the question or let me ask this question what would you be willing to trade him for lets say 8 - 12th pick or 16 - 16thpick or 16 -24 pick? What pick would you say OK we are not getting perceived value for this trade would it be anything after 25?

Depends on the salary and other things coming back. From 1 to 5, I'm wiling to take back bad salary or add to hop up from 11. From 6-10, I'm not adding 11 to Murray to move up unless the other team is attaching something positive (not Kennard). I'd still be willing to add salary to the deal and maybe give up something minor, but 11 would be off the table. Then from 12-18, Murray for the pick and expirings is fine but I'd need more value if the Spurs are taking on bad money. Anything after 18 would require so much value is added that the pick would be secondary. It's just not worth it to sell him that low.

All this is subject to how the board breaks down though. If PATFO thinks someone is a star and that player falls to like 8, I could understand the Spurs moving Murray to trade up. But if that were a straight trade, I'd be skeptical.

[TD 21]

Depends on the salary and other things coming back. From 1 to 5, I'm wiling to take back bad salary or add to hop up from 11. From 6-10, I'm not adding 11 to Murray to move up unless the other team is attaching something positive (not Kennard). I'd still be willing to add salary to the deal and maybe give up something minor, but 11 would be off the table. Then from 12-18, Murray for the pick and expirings is fine but I'd need more value if the Spurs are taking on bad money. Anything after 18 would require so much value is added that the pick would be secondary. It's just not worth it to sell him that low.

All this is subject to how the board breaks down though. If PATFO thinks someone is a star and that player falls to like 8, I could understand the Spurs moving Murray to trade up. But if that were a straight trade, I'd be skeptical.

Not eve in a suspected weak draft (though I don't know if it's much different from a typical year in that range) is there precedent of a player the caliber of Murray, with a questionable at best extension kicking in, yielding a 7th pick on his own.

I agree that the Spurs would need a secondary piece back, but it would still top out as the clear worst piece of the trade. The absolute peak would probably be Brown, but it'd be more likely to be Snell or even Thomas.

[Capt Bringdown]

Murray has a career as an NBA journeyman, not as a starter.

[Chinook]

Not eve in a suspected weak draft (though I don't know if it's much different from a typical year in that range) is there precedent of a player the caliber of Murray, with a questionable at best extension kicking in, yielding a 7th pick on his own.

I agree that the Spurs would need a secondary piece back, but it would still top out as the clear worst piece of the trade. The absolute peak would probably be Brown, but it'd be more likely to be Snell or even Thomas.

Then the Pistons just aren't a trade partner. This isn't Kawhi. The Spurs don't have to take a bad offer just because Detroit wants him. I'd much rather than the 15th pick free and clear than the 7th pick at the expense of 11.

[TD 21]

Then the Pistons just aren't a trade partner. This isn't Kawhi. The Spurs don't have to take a bad offer just because Detroit wants him. I'd much rather than the 15th pick free and clear than the 7th pick at the expense of 11.

That "bad offer" is probably about as good as it gets for Murray (took Saric and 11 to get to 6 last season). Questionable past which initially scared teams off, torn ACL, due $64 million over 4 years and doesn't provide a single desirable offensive skill nor has he accepted the role he needs to play.

Turning that into a potential core building block would kill two birds with one stone.

I know it's just an example, but there's no reason to think the Magic would be interested. Fultz is a project with similar weaknesses and better play making ability. At 15, if they want a point/combo, most or all of Anthony, Maxey, Lewis Jr., Terry, Hampton, Maledon, should be available.

[Seventyniner]

Then the Pistons just aren't a trade partner. This isn't Kawhi. The Spurs don't have to take a bad offer just because Detroit wants him. I'd much rather than the 15th pick free and clear than the 7th pick at the expense of 11.

The idea I kicked around was Murray for #7 straight up. Certainly not Murray + #11 for #7. The Pistons hardly have anyone to send back to add to that and the ones they do have aren't good enough to balance the deal.

Not that Detroit would do this with the loaded 2021 draft coming up, but would you do Murray + #11 for #7 and Detroit's 2021 first? Unequivocal yes/no or does it depend on the protection on the pick? Unless Detroit gets some huge FA signing it's hard to see them not finishing in the bottom 10 in terms of record. Again, just spitballing here based on salary charts; I don't follow other teams enough to know how they would value Murray, who they might send back, etc.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Depends on the salary and other things coming back. From 1 to 5, I'm wiling to take back bad salary or add to hop up from 11. From 6-10, I'm not adding 11 to Murray to move up unless the other team is attaching something positive (not Kennard). I'd still be willing to add salary to the deal and maybe give up something minor, but 11 would be off the table. Then from 12-18, Murray for the pick and expirings is fine but I'd need more value if the Spurs are taking on bad money. Anything after 18 would require so much value is added that the pick would be secondary. It's just not worth it to sell him that low.

All this is subject to how the board breaks down though. If PATFO thinks someone is a star and that player falls to like 8, I could understand the Spurs moving Murray to trade up. But if that were a straight trade, I'd be skeptical.


The Spurs won't trade up blind. They just won't. If there's somebody they really want to get, they would trade Murray without question. They've proven that before.

They gave Murray a contract based on what he could do, not on what he has done. He has an attitude like he's a proven commodity. Bad combo.

[Chinook]

That "bad offer" is probably about as good as it gets for Murray. Questionable past which initially scared teams off, torn ACL, due $64 million over 4 years and doesn't provide a single desirable offensive skill nor has he accepted the role he needs to play.

I think we agree on our evaluation of Murray as a Spurs. I don't think we agree on how other teams will evaluate him. I think they'll see a young guard with an interesting pull-up game and a defensive reputation. The role Murray needs to accept with the Spurs isn't necessarily the role he needs to accept with every team. I think there are multiple teams in the league that play a style more suited to his strengths and who don't have multiple players who need to create their own shots.


I know it's just an example, but there's no reason to think the Magic would be interested. Fultz is a project with similar weaknesses and better play making ability. At 15, if they want a point/combo, most or all of Anthony, Maxey, Lewis Jr., Terry, Hampton, Maledon, should be available.

I don't think the Magic are looking for a particular skill-set. They only have one building block on their team, and that guy is constantly hurt anyway. They don't care about who fits with Gordon or Fournier or whatever. You're right, it was just an example though. For all I know, it's a three-team trade where Orlando give up their pick to get something they want so a third team can pay for Murray.


Turning that into a potential core building block would kill two birds with one stone.

It's all about the player. Moving up to 10 would be worth Murray for the right player. But I'm not looking at 7 as an obvious potential core building block. I have my guys who'd be interesting there. But that's the point where it's likely for them to be gone, and it seems better to go for two guys who could be solid starters to put around the eventual star or to parlay into better picks later on rather than just shooting for a guy drafted a bit higher.

[Chinook]

The idea I kicked around was Murray for #7 straight up. Certainly not Murray + #11 for #7. The Pistons hardly have anyone to send back to add to that and the ones they do have aren't good enough to balance the deal.

Not that Detroit would do this with the loaded 2021 draft coming up, but would you do Murray + #11 for #7 and Detroit's 2021 first? Unequivocal yes/no or does it depend on the protection on the pick? Unless Detroit gets some huge FA signing it's hard to see them not finishing in the bottom 10 in terms of record. Again, just spitballing here based on salary charts; I don't follow other teams enough to know how they would value Murray, who they might send back, etc.

The protections would need to be generous to SA, including eventually becoming completely unprotected and not shunted to seconds like say the Toronto pick would've. I'd consider a future Detroit pick with those protections to be worth Murray, especially for cap space instead of ballast. But I guess I'd be more open to like Kennard in that scenario.

[TD 21]

I think we agree on our evaluation of Murray as a Spurs. I don't think we agree on how other teams will evaluate him. I think they'll see a young guard with an interesting pull-up game and a defensive reputation. The role Murray needs to accept with the Spurs isn't necessarily the role he needs to accept with every team. I think there are multiple teams in the league that play a style more suited to his strengths and who don't have multiple players who need to create their own shots.



I don't think the Magic are looking for a particular skill-set. They only have one building block on their team, and that guy is constantly hurt anyway. They don't care about who fits with Gordon or Fournier or whatever. You're right, it was just an example though. For all I know, it's a three-team trade where Orlando give up their pick to get something they want so a third team can pay for Murray.



It's all about the player. Moving up to 10 would be worth Murray for the right player. But I'm not looking at 7 as an obvious potential core building block. I have my guys who'd be interesting there. But that's the point where it's likely for them to be gone, and it seems better to go for two guys who could be solid starters to put around the eventual star or to parlay into better picks later on rather than just shooting for a guy drafted a bit higher.

Front office executive aren't casual fans though, they'll know about him inside and out. He's not talented enough to create no matter the team. Would he have more of a responsibility short term with a team like the Pistons? Probably, but that'd be a function of current roster construction.

I don't know about that, no team seems more committed to being a perennial 8thish seed than the Magic. I suspect they'll look for a better shot creator/shooter.

Fair enough. I just think they may have a narrow window to move Murray and recouple value in the same trade, so they need to pursue it while they can. Maybe not obvious core building block, but a bunch of them have the rough outline of a game more suited to it than Murray.

[Chinook]

Front office executive aren't casual fans though.

Eh.


He's not talented enough to create no matter the team. Would he have more of a responsibility short term with a team like the Pistons? Probably, but that'd be a function of current roster construction.

It's not really about him being a creator. It's about him NOT having to be one and having him just run around and do stuff. Multiple teams have offenses there guards don't have to set up others or run the show. Even if DJM just played like he did when he was a rookie, he'd be a lot better with the Spurs. The issue is that SA in particular can't tell him to do that.


I don't know about that, no team seems more committed to being a perennial 8thish seed than the Magic. I suspect they'll look for a better shot creator/shooter.

I think they'd've cared more about that had Isaac not been hurt. That he's going to miss the season anyway means they'll have to retool.


Fair enough. I just think they may have a narrow window to move Murray and recouple value in the same trade, so they need to pursue it while they can. Maybe not obvious core building block, but a bunch of them have the rough outline of a game more suited to it than Murray.

I agree, but I don't agree that turning Murray into such a player is worth 11 too. Again, for the right player, blah blah. Just in general, I think they have better odds from drafting two of those players than from just getting the first pick of the bunch out of a hat. If were we talking about 11 and 25 for 7, then I would feel differently. I might still decline, but it's tougher.

[mo7888]

Re: Kennard.... I'd prefer to trade Murray straight up for #7 and keep #11, however I'd probably be willing to include #11 to get #7 and Kennard if I didn't have a better offer elsewhere. I believe Murray has good value around the league right know and I expect that value to be a good bit lower after next season. So there's there's a little bit of a 'premium', if you will, in my mind for moving him now.

I also think Kennard would fit pretty well here, I just wish there was a little more time on his current contract before he gets paid.

[talkspurs]

So if Murray and Walker have avg years next year who's trade value is hurt more? Avg years would be doing about what they had this year maybe a little less.

[Chinook]

So if Murray and Walker have avg years next year who's trade value is hurt more? Avg years would be doing about what they had this year maybe a little less.

Murray will hurt his value more. He'd be a negative, while Walker would be barely positive

[rankingtear]

Re: Kennard.... I'd prefer to trade Murray straight up for #7 and keep #11, however I'd probably be willing to include #11 to get #7 and Kennard if I didn't have a better offer elsewhere. I believe Murray has good value around the league right know and I expect that value to be a good bit lower after next season. So there's there's a little bit of a 'premium', if you will, in my mind for moving him now.

I also think Kennard would fit pretty well here, I just wish there was a little more time on his current contract before he gets paid.

If i was detroit i would do this, kennard has 2 bad knees i don't want to be the one paying his extension. I would get a starting PG who has great work ethic to improve and still have my pick of high upside guys like Pat, Kira, RJ or valuable wings in Bey, Nesmith, Vassel.

[Sugus]

So if Murray and Walker have avg years next year who's trade value is hurt more? Avg years would be doing about what they had this year maybe a little less.

Without a doubt, Murray. Think about it - next year, his contract kicks in, and you're suddenly paying Dejounte 14M instead of about 1M (might be a bit off on these figures). No team is content with paying such a large amount of money for "average" production, and next season would be DJ's second year removed from his injury, which takes away the excuse of "getting back into the game" that he had this year. For Murray to be average next season, would be a disaster for the Spurs, tbh. Lonnie, on the other hand... Still on his rookie deal, a few years younger than Murray, hasn't had a solid chance yet to gel with the team (I know this was a long season, but y'all do remember he was being put in the doghouse this very season, right?).

There's no question about it - the clock is officially ticking on Murray, if it hasn't run out already. I wouldn't be surprised to see him traded this off-season or the next one, and quite frankly I'd support the move wholeheartedly. The only question is: does this new Spurs FO have the balls to do it? Let's see what Wright does...

[DAF86]

Front office executive aren't casual fans though, they'll know about him inside and out. He's not talented enough to create no matter the team. Would he have more of a responsibility short term with a team like the Pistons? Probably, but that'd be a function of current roster construction.

I don't know about that, no team seems more committed to being a perennial 8thish seed than the Magic. I suspect they'll look for a better shot creator/shooter.

Fair enough. I just think they may have a narrow window to move Murray and recouple value in the same trade, so they need to pursue it while they can. Maybe not obvious core building block, but a bunch of them have the rough outline of a game more suited to it than Murray.

Nobody should know Murray inside out more than the Spurs' front office and they overpaid him.

[rankingtear]

Nobody should know Murray inside out more than the Spurs' front office and they overpaid him.

What do you guys estimate as the market value of Murray is right now if he was restricted excluding unforeseen effects like cap not rising and covid revenue hit?

[DAF86]

What do you guys estimate as the market value of Murray is right now if he was restricted excluding unforeseen effects like cap not rising and covid revenue hit?

Whatever backup PG's are making these days.

[rankingtear]

Whatever backup PG's are making these days.

The best ones 12-14, above average 7-8. Do you think he'll be one of the best backup point guards or just above average?

[DAF86]

The best ones 12-14, above average 7-8. Do you think he'll be one of the best backup point guards or just above average?

Barely above average, if that.

Also, outside of Mills' loyalty contract, which backup PG's are making 12-14 millions per year?

[rankingtear]

Barely above average, if that.

Also, outside of Mills' loyalty contract, which backup PG's are making 12-14 millions per year?

george hil 10, schroeder 15, cojo 12, smart 13, dinwiddie 11.5, clarkson 12.5

[Spurtacular]

Murray would be top 5 PG if he learned to shoot the three.

[KobesAchilles]

Murray would be top 5 PG if he learned to shoot the three.
For me it’s his Fathead mentality when it comes to shooting. Just take the damn 3! Idgaf about percentages, it’s the mindset that I care about. If he shot 5 threes a game and made 1.5 of them I would be content

[Dejounte]

There's a place for Murray since most teams are running 2 PGs on the court at the same time these days. He just has to stop fucking sucking.

[Spurtacular]

For me it’s his Fathead mentality when it comes to shooting. Just take the damn 3! Idgaf about percentages, it’s the mindset that I care about. If he shot 5 threes a game and made 1.5 of them I would be content

Could be a mental block. I think Murray may at least be working to get better. I get the feeling Fathead just wasn't trying. He wouldn't even take wide open corner threes.

[The Truth #6]

In Murray‘s defense, he seems to have been working on his deficiencies for the last few years, mainly shooting and passing—granted, things that are pretty fundamental to being a point guard, but in the process I wonder if he has gotten away from his strengths, which initially were defense and rebounding. I would need to look up the stats, of course. But in general, he seems like a player who is no longer in his comfort zone. His comfort zone, however, might make him a limited player. Hence, the rub.

[BackHome]

My main issue is what was Pop thinking when they tried to put a square into a round whole what and I mean that from day one it was easy to see he was not a PG. To be a true PG you have to have handles and you have to court vision which it became clear very early on he did not have these skills traits. He should have been moved to SG very early on and he should focus on defense and the 3 ball and he would probably be a much better player as of right now.

I will give him credit he really does have a sweet mid shoot and his 3 ball is getting better and if he keeps working on it I think will keep seeing improvement. But I don’t think he will improve in the skills necessary to be a PG he should focus on being a better Danny Green with a mid game.

[The Truth #6]

My main issue is what was Pop thinking when they tried to put a square into a round whole what and I mean that from day one it was easy to see he was not a PG. To be a true PG you have to have handles and you have to court vision which it became clear very early on he did not have these skills traits. He should have been moved to SG very early on and he should focus on defense and the 3 ball and he would probably be a much better player as of right now.

I will give him credit he really does have a sweet mid shoot and his 3 ball is getting better and if he keeps working on it I think will keep seeing improvement. But I don’t think he will improve in the skills necessary to be a PG he should focus on being a better Danny Green with a mid game.

I see your point and mostly agree with that. However, I do think it is good that the team is developing his skills, for example, his mid range game is something Bruce Bowen never had or strived to achieve. To me the problem with Murray is not that he wasn’t born a point guard, it’s that his attitude precludes him, it seems, from accepting different roles.

[The Truth #6]

I think some of the challenges with Murray can be mitigated if pop is able to keep the same lineup that he had in the bubble. DD took up a lot of the play-making responsibilities, or at least shared it with Murray and White, and so no one was the point guard, which helped to reduce any player feeling rejected.

This is a roundabout way of saying they should probably trade Aldridge to keep the other egos in line.

[weeks]

Could be a mental block. I think Murray may at least be working to get better. I get the feeling Fathead just wasn't trying. He wouldn't even take wide open corner threes.
Bobo could be pretty infuriating passing up wiiiide open 3s
Dude would make em when it counted tho

[Sugus]

For me it’s his Fathead mentality when it comes to shooting. Just take the damn 3! Idgaf about percentages, it’s the mindset that I care about. If he shot 5 threes a game and made 1.5 of them I would be content

Agree with this - I want to expand on it, even. You can teach (almost) any player to have a proper shooting form. You can iron out kinks, smooth the jumping and shooting motion, teach them where and when they should be shooting, what kinds of shots they should be taking and what shots they shouldn't.

What you can't ever teach - and it's increasingly apparent Murray doesn't have - is a shooter's mentality. Dejounte simply doesn't look to shoot from behind the 3pt line, whether he's the one handling the ball or receiving a pass: he always, automatically, goes for a pump fake or an outright penetration. It's just how he's played basketball his entire life, and it's not something you can force a player to change, at 24yo nonetheless. He will certainly become a better shooter in time, because his motion can use work - but he'll never be a true SG (or shooting PG, whatever you want to call him).

To anyone doubting my statement, think about this hypothetical: game on the line, down 2 or 3, Dejounte has the ball. Is there really any scenario where he goes for a pull-up 3? No, there isn't. He will always, invariably, drive and try to force a shot at the rim or midrange, and we've seen this doesn't change even with excelling defenders in the paint, ready to meet him. I call it the "DeRozan Conundrum".

[The Truth #6]

Sugus, I agree with what you’re saying, but I suppose I’m more concerned about his passing than his shooting mentality.

[Sugus]

Sugus, I agree with what you’re saying, but I suppose I’m more concerned about his passing than his shooting mentality.

I'm equally concerned about both, tbh. :lol

Just re-read all your posts on DJ. The thing is that, whether the Spurs try to develop his abilities or not... He's just not a very good player. I don't recall a single pass from him that made me go "wow, what a passer this guy is!" - in fact he still struggles with basic entry passes to LMA or DD. His playmaking has also always been suspect, he is not a capable handler in the PnR (doesn't try to at least, unlike Derrick who's literally top of the league at it) nor makes good plays for his teammates other than a kick and drive; on top of that, he's prone to tunnel vision, especially when driving and moreso now that his pull-up midrange game is flourishing. As for his dribbling, it's still inadequate and I haven't really seen an improvement there (though I'd be open to seeing some video comparisons, I'm just going off the eye test of watching most of his games).

So the obvious question is - why should the Spurs try so hard to bring a below-average player into even average territory in these basic skills, when he doesn't even have elite upside in any other thing (besides maybe rebounding for a guard, the most useless position to be elite at this)? Why not just draft, or develop, or trade for, another player who does have these skills figured out, and also elite upside in these or other areas? The only answer I can really come up with is either, loyalty for having drafted him, or the fact that they've already paid him. Both are problematic.

The kicker for me though, is that other teams, who haven't put in nearly the amount of hours that I've spent watching Dejounte, are likely still unaware of the presence or depth of these problems in DJ's game. He's to me the literal definition of selling high on a player; I don't see him ever living up to his current contract, much less get the Spurs value on it by performing above expectations. I could be completely wrong and have to eat my words in one or two years... But I'd much rather have another team be in possession of the gamble, tbh.

[rankingtear]

The young guard can make up to $70 million if he can make over 125 three-pointers in a season, exceed a True Shooting percentage, of 58 percent or make an All-Defensive team, according to The Athletic’s John Hollinger.

The scoring would be the key for him next season , specially besides white, they both have to be aggressive on shooting the three ball for that pairing to work. If they keep the same bubble starting lineup then Dejounte will handle the ball less and he can focus on threes and defense. If he can come close to those incentives then he's a completely different player.

[Seventyniner]

Let's see, Murray made 41 threes this season in 66 games and had a TS of 52.4%. He must be banking on that All-Defensive selection.

[TD 21]

Nobody should know Murray inside out more than the Spurs' front office and they overpaid him.

Things change fast in professional sports. A year ago, especially given the hype we were fed from the media via the Spurs, it seemed reasonable or better.

Now, it looks foolish. Outside of mostly uncontested, low efficiency shots, he hasn't made progress and if White and Johnson are anything close to what they showed in the bubble, they're clearly better (the former already had it in him, he just showed it with consistency we'd yet to see) and Walker remains more intriguing/malleable.

They also probably overvalued themselves. He'd long been thought of as their most promising young player since Scumbag and since they had a hand in him and Parker, among others, becoming the players they did, they probably thought they could turn him into an average starting or better "PG".



george hil 10, schroeder 15, cojo 12, smart 13, dinwiddie 11.5, clarkson 12.5

Joseph is the only true backup "PG" of the bunch and that contract came from a joke organization, with an inexperienced, in over his head executive.

The rest are either starters or third guards.

[talkspurs]

Joseph is the only true backup "PG" of the bunch and that contract came from a joke organization, with an inexperienced, in over his head executive.

The rest are either starters or third guards.

None of the others start or are you saying they are not PG? Dinwiddie would be the closest to starting but he is the backup to Kyrie when healthy. If your going to say they are combo guards so is Murray.

[Nivek_ogre]

I'd be all in on trading Murray if this team was poised to be competitive next year. But it looks like the Spurs may be rebuilding the next couple of years. I think White is the better point guard but he's also 26 years old. He is what he is. By the time these younger Spurs reach their potential White may be 30 years old. So either keep Murray and see what he can become or draft or trade for a point guard.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Front office executive aren't casual fans though, they'll know about him inside and out. He's not talented enough to create no matter the team.


Didn't they know Bertans inside and out? Asking for a friend.

[Sugus]

I'd be all in on trading Murray if this team was poised to be competitive next year. But it looks like the Spurs may be rebuilding the next couple of years. I think White is the better point guard but he's also 26 years old. He is what he is. By the time these younger Spurs reach their potential White may be 30 years old. So either keep Murray and see what he can become or draft or trade for a point guard.

I don't understand, what difference does the Spurs being competitive or not make in the decision to trade Murray? If we're competitive, he hinders the team with his below-average-for-pay production. If we're not competitive, he hinders the team by using up cap space that could be destined to other, more upside-laden prospects, or destined to absorbing bad contracts from other teams in exchange for picks or players. In any case, if he's bad enough to warrant trading, what does the Spurs outlook have to do with it?

Second question - what's the issue with White being 30 when the team's players are reaching their potential? That's kind of the ideal age you'd want for a PG if you're having championship aspirations, which the Spurs would ideally be having once they're "reaching their potential". I ask this because it's brought up a lot, and I fail to see a problem... It's not like every player on a team has to be the same age, and it's not like 30 is an age where production suddenly declines, like 33-35 would be. White is perfect the way that he is, assuming the bubble White is here to stay... Can't ask for much more out of him. Even then, he's bound to get better just by physically developing and gaining experience, this is only his second year of fully NBA play. I don't see a need to draft for a PG, unless they're by and large the BPA, and assuming Dejounte is finally relegated to SG/whatever and we anoint White as our true PG, tbh.

[Nivek_ogre]

In his current incarnation Murray fucking stinks. If another team wants him it's solely based on potential. The Spurs have time to wait and see what he becomes.