WTF is going on with the defense?

[TDfan2007]

Is the lack of a crowd making the players even less invested than before? Are players being less physical in order to have themselves for the playoffs?

Some of these games have been glorified layup lines and 3 point drills...most have liked like summer pickup at UCLA. SMH

Hopefully it picks up in the playoffs. I want to watch good offense beat good defense. Watching a bunch of unimpeded scoring is boring tbh

[lefty]

Uhoh

[baseline bum]

For everyone outside of those vying for the 8-seed in the west this restart has basically been a preseason since seeding was determined by record from before the stoppage. No surprise you're seeing good teams not take the games too seriously leading to shitty teams like the Spurs, Blazers, and Suns all of a sudden winning games.

[daslicer]

Is the lack of a crowd making the players even less invested than before? Are players being less physical in order to have themselves for the playoffs?

Some of these games have been glorified layup lines and 3 point drills...most have liked like summer pickup at UCLA. SMH

Hopefully it picks up in the playoffs. I want to watch good offense beat good defense. Watching a bunch of unimpeded scoring is boring tbh

It's been like that the last 5 years since everybody has copied the Warriors style of basketball.

[Dirks_Finale]

THIS

That's the modern NBA today.

6'5 centers.

Nobody wants to touch anyone as they have to go watch the replay for 10 minutes and it slows the game down.


It's been like that the last 5 years since everybody has copied the Warriors style of basketball.

[JamStone]

Same thing that’s been going on with the defense for like a decade now, maybe even longer. But certainly since most teams have started to shoot threes at a one out of three shot attempt clip.

Everyone shooting a lot of threes and shooting them well changes defensive strategy. More threes, from PG to center, defenses have to play out on the perimeter more, point guard to center. You stretch defenses out more, it creates bigger driving and cutting lanes. Help defenders are less reluctant to leave their man and give up wide open kickout threes. And when you have to play tight on a shooter, one pump fake and you bite, he’s gone, wide open lay-up. And sometimes that’s relatively good defense. If Dame just hit like 4 threes and is shooting them from 40 feet out, if you bite on a fake and force him to get an easy lay-up, that’s kind of a win. Giving up two better than giving up three.

Defense will tighten up a little more in the playoffs. But this is not really new. It’s been all star game defense in the NBA for years now.

[Spurtacular]

Watching a bunch of unimpeded scoring is boring tbh

This is the way the NBA wants it. Your dad's basketball is not going to be a thing.

[140]

t:lolday's NBA

[DAF86]

Calling it right now: the next crowd favourite team will be a defensive minded team that makes defending entertaining. 5 guys of no less than 6'6", all with 7+ feet wingspans, who can switch 1 through 5 and where all can block shots and intercept passes. They will make an art form of defensive rotations.

[lefty]

We’re witnessing GOAT NBA offense and defense

Lillard would average 61 ppg in the 90s tbh

[DAF86]

We’re witnessing GOAT NBA offense and defense

Lillard would average 61 ppg in the 90s tbh

Is this a shtick or have you seriously changed your mind? I clearly remember you being part of the old-scool team.

[lefty]

Is this a shtick or have you seriously changed your mind? I clearly remember you being part of the old-scool team.

change of mind tbh
Been watching the game with more objectivity

Which era do you think is better tbh?

[lefty]

For everyone outside of those vying for the 8-seed in the west this restart has basically been a preseason since seeding was determined by record from before the stoppage. No surprise you're seeing good teams not take the games too seriously leading to shitty teams like the Spurs, Blazers, and Suns all of a sudden winning games.
Pretty much this.

[Dirks_Finale]

We’re witnessing GOAT NBA offense and defense
:lol

[Dirks_Finale]

Calling it right now: the next crowd favourite team will be a defensive minded team that makes defending entertaining. 5 guys of no less than 6'6", all with 7+ feet wingspans, who can switch 1 through 5 and where all can block shots and intercept passes. They will make an art form of defensive rotations.

I could see Brad Stevens building such a team. Please, let it happen all across the league. And change the rules and allow some physicality. I don't want those 73-72 games either, but these all star game scrimmages are not fun to watch.

[JamStone]

More and more teams have already started to play that style of defense, with certain line-ups, interchangeable defenders at all five positions, guard with quickness and length. Boston, Miami, even the Lakers employ line-ups like that. Miami’s style of play can be somewhat entertaining. Boston too at times. You need the athletes to do it, otherwise it looks more like Houston with five midget guards looking like a middle school team with no big guys. And that’s not so entertaining to watch.

[Millennial_Messiah]

I could see Brad Stevens building such a team. Please, let it happen all across the league. And change the rules and allow some physicality. I don't want those 73-72 games either, but these all star game scrimmages are not fun to watch.

I'd gladly take the early and mid 2000s where teams like the Pistons (and of course the hot-and-cold offense Spurs with their consistently great defense) did in fact exist and then you had teams like the Mavs and Kings which were exciting and fun to watch because they were the exception, but not the norm.

The Grizzlies of the early 2010s were the last such team to employ that style of basketball, and they were solid contenders for a few years. But there hasn't been a single team since.

I don't like this recent return to 80s free-for-all ball (spearheaded by the late 00s Suns and Nellie's Warriors and perverted by the Steve Kerr Warriors and since mocked around the league), and with even stricter anti-defense rules now than back then. It makes basketball just as boring as if every game across the league was 2004 Detroit Pistons vs. 2013 Memphis Grizzlies.

[TDfan2007]

Same thing that’s been going on with the defense for like a decade now, maybe even longer. But certainly since most teams have started to shoot threes at a one out of three shot attempt clip.

Everyone shooting a lot of threes and shooting them well changes defensive strategy. More threes, from PG to center, defenses have to play out on the perimeter more, point guard to center. You stretch defenses out more, it creates bigger driving and cutting lanes. Help defenders are less reluctant to leave their man and give up wide open kickout threes. And when you have to play tight on a shooter, one pump fake and you bite, he’s gone, wide open lay-up. And sometimes that’s relatively good defense. If Dame just hit like 4 threes and is shooting them from 40 feet out, if you bite on a fake and force him to get an easy lay-up, that’s kind of a win. Giving up two better than giving up three.

Defense will tighten up a little more in the playoffs. But this is not really new. It’s been all star game defense in the NBA for years now.

Agree with everything you mentioned. It just looks even more egregious now though.

Ironically, the best defense we've seen all year came at the end of this year's ASG :lol

[TDfan2007]

We’re witnessing GOAT NBA offense and defense

Lillard would average 61 ppg in the 90s tbh

We're DEFINITELY watching GOAT offense from a shooting standpoint. The shots that so many NBA players can hit now are incredible, but I disagree about the D.

GOAT D was in the early-mid 2000s imo. Handchecking was still a thing, you had athletes at almost every position, and it was physical without the goon tactics of the 80s/90s.

NBA players have never been more skilled in the perimeter imo, so you combine that with a situation where nobody can touch them, and it's basically like practice drills all game.

[TDfan2007]

For everyone outside of those vying for the 8-seed in the west this restart has basically been a preseason since seeding was determined by record from before the stoppage. No surprise you're seeing good teams not take the games too seriously leading to shitty teams like the Spurs, Blazers, and Suns all of a sudden winning games.

This is another really good point that I kind of alluded to with my "saving themselves for the playoffs" comment. Seems like most teams have less to play for.

[Clipper Nation]

The refs have been even touchier than usual in the bubble and it makes it a lot harder to play defense.

[lefty]

The refs have been even touchier than usual in the bubble and it makes it a lot harder to play defense.
Trying to limit covid proliferation?

[lefty]

We're DEFINITELY watching GOAT offense from a shooting standpoint. The shots that so many NBA players can hit now are incredible, but I disagree about the D.

GOAT D was in the early-mid 2000s imo. Handchecking was still a thing, you had athletes at almost every position, and it was physical without the goon tactics of the 80s/90s.

NBA players have never been more skilled in the perimeter imo, so you combine that with a situation where nobody can touch them, and it's basically like practice drills all game.
Too much outside shooting is boring TBH; back when the NBA wasn't so international and there was a clear difference of style between NBA basketball and the rest of the World, watching euro basketball was ...I don't want to say boring, because Euro players were already talented and skilled back then, but it wasn't exciting like NBA basketball.

Any white Euro guy could shoot 3 pointers with practice, but the NBA had the "IT" factor

What drew basketball fans from all over the World was the distinctive style of those NBA superstars, Bird, Isiah, Hakeem, Dad Killer, Magic, etc... it was unique and almost globe trotteresque

Today's NBA with the current rules and international players reminds me of the old Euro basketball leagues, it has lost its cachet

That's really the only thing I miss from Yesterday's NBA with the variety of moves and footwork in the paint - well that and true rivalries

But I refuse to be nostalgic :lol

[Seventyniner]

This is another really good point that I kind of alluded to with my "saving themselves for the playoffs" comment. Seems like most teams have less to play for.

With there being no such thing as HCA, seeding only affects matchups. None of the playoff teams seem to be trying to strategically position themselves in the brackets either. They seem to be more focused on getting guys back into game shape and practicing end-of-game situations if it happens to be close.

[TDfan2007]

Too much outside shooting is boring TBH; back when the NBA wasn't so international and there was a clear difference of style between NBA basketball and the rest of the World, watching euro basketball was ...I don't want to say boring, because Euro players were already talented and skilled back then, but it wasn't exciting like NBA basketball.

Any white Euro guy could shoot 3 pointers with practice, but the NBA had the "IT" factor

What drew basketball fans from all over the World was the distinctive style of those NBA superstars, Bird, Isiah, Hakeem, Dad Killer, Magic, etc... it was unique and almost globe trotteresque

Today's NBA with the current rules and international players reminds me of the old Euro basketball leagues, it has lost its cachet

That's really the only thing I miss from Yesterday's NBA with the variety of moves and footwork in the paint - well that and true rivalries

But I refuse to be nostalgic :lol

I miss the offensive variety too, but I think I miss the rivalries even more. In the 2000s alone you had Spurs-Lakers, Spurs-Mavs, Lakers-Kings, Spurs-Suns, Pistons-Pacers. That shit was gold.

[lefty]

I miss the offensive variety too, but I think I miss the rivalries even more. In the 2000s alone you had Spurs-Lakers, Spurs-Mavs, Lakers-Kings, Spurs-Suns, Pistons-Pacers. That shit was gold.

yep
And before that, Knicks vs Heat, Knicks vs Pacers. NY had true rivalries with those 2 teams, not with Chicago, I felt Bulls vs Knicks rivalry was a bit manufactured.

Houston and Phoenix had a nice but short lived playoff rivalry

Charlotte and Orlando could have had a nice rivalry too, but Shaq and Zo bolted from their respective teams....
Shaq and Zo, LJ and Penny, cool pinstriped jerseys... oh well

[Dirks_Finale]

I'd gladly take the early and mid 2000s where teams like the Pistons (and of course the hot-and-cold offense Spurs with their consistently great defense) did in fact exist and then you had teams like the Mavs and Kings which were exciting and fun to watch because they were the exception, but not the norm.

The Grizzlies of the early 2010s were the last such team to employ that style of basketball, and they were solid contenders for a few years. But there hasn't been a single team since.

I don't like this recent return to 80s free-for-all ball (spearheaded by the late 00s Suns and Nellie's Warriors and perverted by the Steve Kerr Warriors and since mocked around the league), and with even stricter anti-defense rules now than back then. It makes basketball just as boring as if every game across the league was 2004 Detroit Pistons vs. 2013 Memphis Grizzlies.

Yeah and I think that Grizzly team wins a ring if they had anything that resembled a closer on it. Tony Allen was a damn doberman. Somehow he rarely got talked about... They always wanted to exalt Bowen or Artest but Allen may have been better than both of them on the defensive side.

[Millennial_Messiah]

Yeah and I think that Grizzly team wins a ring if they had anything that resembled a closer on it. Tony Allen was a damn doberman. Somehow he rarely got talked about... They always wanted to exalt Bowen or Artest but Allen may have been better than both of them on the defensive side.
Trick-or-Treat Tony Allen was maybe the only player in the history of the game to give Durant legitimate fits without fouling.

[ambchang]

Nba looking to empower WNBA by imitating their style of play. Just that they are moving the defensive radius from 18 feet to 30 feet. Same style.

[HarlemHeat37]

Players are significantly more skilled than ever + NBA has tried everything it can to remove defense by calling fouls on every play and allowing offensive players the benefit of the doubt at all times. It's been much worse in the bubble because only a couple of teams are giving any effort, the rest are avoiding injury, which is the correct move. Actually, even prior to the bubble, it was evident that players and coaches have finally realized that Regular Season basketball is almost meaningless.

Defense always gets better in the playoffs, though, as we saw with the Raptors last year. Let's just hope they stop calling fouls at the same rate.

[Neo.]

Players are significantly more skilled than ever + NBA has tried everything it can to remove defense by calling fouls on every play and allowing offensive players the benefit of the doubt at all times. It's been much worse in the bubble because only a couple of teams are giving any effort, the rest are avoiding injury, which is the correct move. Actually, even prior to the bubble, it was evident that players and coaches have finally realized that Regular Season basketball is almost meaningless.

Defense always gets better in the playoffs, though, as we saw with the Raptors last year. Let's just hope they stop calling fouls at the same rate.

this is a very significant aspect as to why defense seems lesser over the past 5 years or so as well

when you have lebron spending 8 straight years in the finals and barely caring about his team's seed or getting HCA in that timeframe, compared to teams like the raptors, rockets, hawks, cavs (pre-lebron to miami), thunder and warriors (2016) playing pedal to the medal for tons of wins and high seeds yet constantly coming up empty handed, it seems the leagues interest in playing so hard in the regular season really declined

[TDfan2007]

Players are significantly more skilled than ever + NBA has tried everything it can to remove defense by calling fouls on every play and allowing offensive players the benefit of the doubt at all times. It's been much worse in the bubble because only a couple of teams are giving any effort, the rest are avoiding injury, which is the correct move. Actually, even prior to the bubble, it was evident that players and coaches have finally realized that Regular Season basketball is almost meaningless.

Defense always gets better in the playoffs, though, as we saw with the Raptors last year. Let's just hope they stop calling fouls at the same rate.

Agreed that it's a bit of both. A huge drop in physicality coupled with improved offense (especially with the use of the pull-up 3) and a laughable use of moving screens now (used to be only the superstars would get away with them) seems to have done the trick.

Harden just waltzes to the rim on the regular because guys are afraid to touch him, and no handchecking on the perimeter means he can dance on the perimeter all he wants

[lefty]

Hand checking doesn’t do anything to great players and wouldn’t affect Harden

[Dirks_Finale]

Untrue.

If the guy doing hand checking has strong enough hands...like say Kawhi or JKidd, it impedes movement long enough for defenses to read/settle and rotate over.

If it's JJ Barea hand checking someone, then sure, no impact.


Hand checking doesn’t do anything to great players and wouldn’t affect Harden

[140]

Untrue.

If the guy doing hand checking has strong enough hands...like say Kawhi or JKidd, it impedes movement long enough for defenses to read/settle and rotate over.

If it's JJ Barea hand checking someone, then sure, no impact.
well...

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fa.espncdn.com%2Fphoto%2F2012%2F100 1%2Fnba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

:lol

[Dirks_Finale]

:lmao:toast


well...

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fa.espncdn.com%2Fphoto%2F2012%2F100 1%2Fnba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

:lol

[Neo.]

Hand checking doesn’t do anything to great players and wouldn’t affect Harden

tbh people are too stupid to realize that players still handcheck a ton, and that guys like harden, kd, kawhi, kobe, steph, dame and many others have simply figured out that you can make handchecking a worthless and even bad defensive move by either doing the swingthrough, or by grabbing/hooking the hand check in a way that the ref is forced to call a legal (albeit cheap) foul. and even if the ref doesn't call a foul, by doing the hook/grab, it throws the defenders balance and position off, and pretty much puts them at the offensive players mercy

and tbh its not his fault, nor the refs fault. it was just bound to happen in time that players find loopholes in the rules, just the same way 80s/90s players made flopping become a common strategy

[lefty]

well...

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fa.espncdn.com%2Fphoto%2F2012%2F100 1%2Fnba_g_james_gb2_576.jpg

:lol
do you have a video of that sequence

[lefty]

Also they called HC back in the 90s especially when someone was trying to HC Jordan :lmao

[lefty]

tbh people are too stupid to realize that players still handcheck a ton, and that guys like harden, kd, kawhi, kobe, steph, dame and many others have simply figured out that you can make handchecking a worthless and even bad defensive move by either doing the swingthrough, or by grabbing/hooking the hand check in a way that the ref is forced to call a legal (albeit cheap) foul. and even if the ref doesn't call a foul, by doing the hook/grab, it throws the defenders balance and position off, and pretty much puts them at the offensive players mercy

and tbh its not his fault, nor the refs fault. it was just bound to happen in time that players find loopholes in the rules, just the same way 80s/90s players made flopping become a common strategy

Exactly

[DMC]

Is the lack of a crowd making the players even less invested than before? Are players being less physical in order to have themselves for the playoffs?

Some of these games have been glorified layup lines and 3 point drills...most have liked like summer pickup at UCLA. SMH

Hopefully it picks up in the playoffs. I want to watch good offense beat good defense. Watching a bunch of unimpeded scoring is boring tbh

Let's see, no Tim Duncan, no Manu, no Kawhi, no Danny Green. Seems obvious enough

[FrostKing]

I was unaware anyone was watching

[Neo.]

I was unaware anyone was watching

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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so funny.