Aleksej Pokusevski - 2020 NBA Draft Prospect

[pad300]

Cause it needs to be done

https://www.thestepien.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Screen-Shot-2020-02-24-at-7.18.36-AM.png

Aleksej Pokusevski

College: NA
Position: PF/c
Age: 18.48
Height: 7 foot
Weight: 201 pounds
Draft Range: 4 to 20

Why: If the Spurs want more rings, they need a ring-worthy centerpiece. Picking 11, that’s challenging (there is a serious chance, IMO, that he will be gone before 11). Poku has that ceiling : Poku’s a unicorn prospect – very young, physically under-developed, but very promising. The following comparison is IMO instructive : http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=aleksej-pokusevski--obi-toppin--kristaps-porzingis . Note who gets the most rebounds per 36, blocks, steals (and assists). He’s a 3 pt shooter (.505 attempt rate), and his FT% (again, the best of the 3) suggests he will shoot a good 3FG% in the long run…

Why Not: He's too skinny to deal with the NBA right now. The question is, do you think he will fill out? How soon? I will note that Gobert, Porzingis and Giannis all came over roughly as skinny as he is now, and managed just fine in the long run… Young men don’t tend to fill out until they stop growing vertically, and he’s only 18 and a half.

Spurs Fit: Welcome to Austin … for at least a year, and maybe 2. It really depends on his development after that, but even if he remains skinny, there have been twigs in the NBA before. His current skills are enough to be a decent perimeter 4, with some shooting, playmaking and acceptable perimeter and help (but not post) defense. Even limited physical improvement will make him Keith van Horn.

Comparison - Ceiling: Dirk (with D!)

Spurs Comparison - Floor: Ryan Richards

Statistics (http://www.tankathon.com/players/aleksej-pokusevski)

Scouting Report (https://www.thestepien.com/2020/02/24/aleksej-pokusevski-scouting-report/)

[spurspl]

but gobert, dirk and giannis werent so narrow and didnt run like they just had learned how to walk. Imo hes a 2-3yr prospect

[dbestpro]

but gobert, dirk and giannis werent so narrow and didnt run like they just had learned how to walk. Imo hes a 2-3yr prospect

You need to watch more video of this kid. My guess is you have not watched any at all. The dude can go coast to coast. Not sure I have ever seen a 7 footer bring the ball up the court like a PG, before.

[exstatic]

https://uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Screen-Shot-2020-08-19-at-4.44.23-PM.jpg

Unicorn table,per 36 pre-draft numbers.

[KobesAchilles]

How tf can you be 7 feet tall and only weigh 201 lbs? Is that a mistype bc that shit is unhealthy. It's not simply about oh he needs to put on weight bc he is waaay underweight to begin with. I'm 6 foot on the dot and my doctor told me my ideal weight is 175. But a dude a whole foot taller than me weighs only 25 more pounds?? Paaaaaaassssss

[duncan2150]

I have a hard time analysing poku as he was playing in a really low level competition with olympiakos B.

In youth tournaments with serbia u17 and u18 he had completes statistic lines but did not score too much.

[exstatic]

How tf can you be 7 feet tall and only weigh 201 lbs? Is that a mistype bc that shit is unhealthy. It's not simply about oh he needs to put on weight bc he is waaay underweight to begin with. I'm 6 foot on the dot and my doctor told me my ideal weight is 175. But a dude a whole foot taller than me weighs only 25 more pounds?? Paaaaaaassssss

Lots of guys come into the league skinny. Your growth has outstripped your food intake. He’s still 18.

The guy who wrote the article where I pulled that table from said that if he knew for sure that he would put on 15 lbs during the g-league season next year, he’d draft him at #3.

[exstatic]

I have a hard time analysing poku as he was playing in a really low level competition with olympiakos B.

In youth tournaments with serbia u17 and u18 he had completes statistic lines but did not score too much.

Psst. Giannis played in that exact Greek league, and was drafted based on that performance.

[BackHome]

The dude is a Unicorn in that if he can overcome one thing he should be a Great Player - most players have to improve on defense, rebounding , passing, dribbling, offense , or defense. This guy has only one thing to do and that is add about 20 pds of muscle. He has amazing skills his handles are probably better then Murray, and Forbes right now and he is the youngest cat in the draft.

He is fast and runs fine as some mentioned he can cost with it all the way and do a nifty pass or take it to the hoop his handles are that good. I would say that at 18 he is way more skilled then any player we could draft at 11 but he is the skinniest player. If you looks at his stats and vids he can shoot, he can rebound, he can pass, he can block shots and a good level.

Now the bad as mentioned he is real skinny he has problems making layups when contact is made, he can’t guards bigs down low, and his passing is like Manu was his first year as in know one knows where or why he passed to no one. Lol. If drafted he will take a minimum of 2 years in G League to be ready for NBA.

So it’s a risk but he is only 18 and he is such a skilled player that maybe we take a chance on.

[NickiRasgo]

The dude is a Unicorn in that if he can overcome one thing he should be a Great Player - most players have to improve on defense, rebounding , passing, dribbling, offense , or defense. This guy has only one thing to do and that is add about 20 pds of muscle. He has amazing skills his handles are probably better then Murray, and Forbes right now and he is the youngest cat in the draft.

He is fast and runs fine as some mentioned he can cost with it all the way and do a nifty pass or take it to the hoop his handles are that good. I would say that at 18 he is way more skilled then any player we could draft at 11 but he is the skinniest player. If you looks at his stats and vids he can shoot, he can rebound, he can pass, he can block shots and a good level.

Now the bad as mentioned he is real skinny he has problems making layups when contact is made, he can’t guards bigs down low, and his passing is like Manu was his first year as in know one knows where or why he passed to no one. Lol. If drafted he will take a minimum of 2 years in G League to be ready for NBA.

So it’s a risk but he is only 18 and he is such a skilled player that maybe we take a chance on.

Not only weight but character, work ethic and feel of the game.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Big men almost always need 2-3 seasons to grow into the role - physique and skills. Jokic was pretty good in his second season, but even he really didn't show until his third year (and probably some chemistry in the off season). That Stepien article is pretty damn good. (A lot of Stepien articles are pretty damn good.)

He's got a pretty good chance of being viable in the NBA, IMO. Big men really need to be efficient to be effective, and his 2P% is pretty pathetic for a guy 7 feet tall. He obviously has to get bigger, but that will probably make it impossible for him to defend even athletic 4's.

If the Spurs are committed to taking a couple of years to rebuild, he's probably worth a shot. If the Spurs take a shot on him, it SHOULD be a sign that they are committed to taking a couple of years to rebuild.

[KobesAchilles]

Lots of guys come into the league skinny. Your growth has outstripped your food intake. He’s still 18.

The guy who wrote the article where I pulled that table from said that if he knew for sure that he would put on 15 lbs during the g-league season next year, he’d draft him at #3.
Thats not skinny bro. That’s unhealthy. There’s a difference. It means he has like zero muscle. He weighs 10 pounds more than Steph Curry. Even with 15lbs extra he is still underweight for his size.

[R. DeMurre]

His stats are actually better than what Giannis put up in the same league at roughly the same age. Obviously everything depends on his work ethic so it's hard to speculate, but I think it's a really good sign that he already puts up good numbers in assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks. He was named to the all Defense team in his league and was the MVP of foreign (non Greek) players... my favorite scenario is that he evolves into a taller version of Andrei Kirilenko, the player I wanted most for the Spurs from the mid 2000s until about 2011.

[Dejounte]

This year's Bol Bol?

[r0drig0lac]

Do It

[duncan2150]

Psst. Giannis played in that exact Greek league, and was drafted based on that performance.

Maybe you don't understand, i just think it's difficult to evaluate a player in that kind of competition, plus he did not dominate some youth tournaments but he was complete.

Nobody knows how poku will pan out.

[Sugus]

I'd rather have Precious, who might have the lower ceiling but has the much, much higher floor, but if he's off the table by the time we're picking then Aleksej is certainly worth the shot. I haven't really seen anything negative in regards to his work ethic, as some posters here are saying, but if that's true then it might be a hard pass. The thing about Giannis is that not only did he have the frame to bulk up (and access to every PED money can buy), but also an insane work and growth ethic from his background. I don't know if Pokusevski has that drive... Hopefully the Spurs scout him out good if that's who we're taking. But the bottomline is always to try and get BPA, and this guy could very well end up being the best player in the draft in a few years' time.

[BillMc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S4UYsstDg8

[BackHome]

His stats are actually better than what Giannis put up in the same league at roughly the same age. Obviously everything depends on his work ethic so it's hard to speculate, but I think it's a really good sign that he already puts up good numbers in assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks. He was named to the all Defense team in his league and was the MVP of foreign (non Greek) players... my favorite scenario is that he evolves into a taller version of Andrei Kirilenko, the player I wanted most for the Spurs from the mid 2000s until about 2011.

Man two players I always wanted the Spurs to get was Kirilenko and Barkley ahh what could have been. So looking back at some skinny player who did Ok in the NBA.

Draft Express
Kirilenko HT: 6’9 Weight: 217
Giannis Ht: 6’9 Weight: 197

[Seventyniner]

This looks like the type of player that will be drafted high because one team really reaches. I'm looking at you, Knicks.

Then again, their Porzingis pick was rather prescient.

[Dejounte]

I dont want to hear Spurstalk shit on him after one year and call him a bust, when it's clear he needs two years. But who am I kidding... That's what happened with Luka even though we knew from the beginning he was a project...

[Sugus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S4UYsstDg8

Man, all the tools are there... But I'm still too skeptical that he can ever put enough muscle/weight/strength on to be viable at the NBA level. Seems like the kind of player that absolutely eats out lower competition, even G-League maybe, but just can't match the bodies of the NBA. I think he's still worth a shot though, especially if the Spurs trade down with Boston to get multiple picks and he's still there.

[JuneJive]

Hopefully, the Spurs should get some insight into his physical question marks.

If that checks out, he's the guy.

[exstatic]

Man, all the tools are there... But I'm still too skeptical that he can ever put enough muscle/weight/strength on to be viable at the NBA level. Seems like the kind of player that absolutely eats out lower competition, even G-League maybe, but just can't match the bodies of the NBA. I think he's still worth a shot though, especially if the Spurs trade down with Boston to get multiple picks and he's still there.

You swing for the fences in a crap draft like this. You have nothing to lose but maybe a rotation level player. If you look at all of those guys on the unicorn list, really only the two Americans, Embiid and JJ jr, were at all known quantities. Kristaps generated some pre draft buzz, but a lot of people thought the Knicks were crazy to draft him where they did. This is how you stumble across a unicorn: you draft unafraid. You don’t think floors, you think ceilings.

[Sugus]

You swing for the fences in a crap draft like this. You have nothing to lose but maybe a rotation level player. If you look at all of those guys on the unicorn list, really only the two Americans, Embiid and JJ jr, were at all known quantities. Kristaps generated some pre draft buzz, but a lot of people thought the Knicks were crazy to draft him where they did. This is how you stumble across a unicorn: you draft unafraid. You don’t think floors, you think ceilings.

It's not that I'm afraid of the possibilities of a bust, and I certainly agree with your philosophy; it's just that the Spurs have already "swung for the fences" to draft a unicorn-like player in Luka last season, and we still don't even know whether he'll work out at the NBA level, and probably won't know for at least another year. At a certain point, you have to start drafting known quantities, if not only because San Antonio isn't the best FA location and we've already been spurned in the past. There is a real hole at the 4 and less so at 5 in our team, especially moving forward, and I would probably rather have a player like Achiuwa, who not only fits the bill from day 1 but also has quite the upside both offensively and defensively, than someone like Pokusevski who has the higher ceiling but is just as likely to cap out as a role player in 3 years than he is of being out of the league in that same span. Giannis-like transformations are the exception, not the rule, and I'd personally prefer the Spurs to keep their project drafting to a minimum at a time.

Having said that, I'm also on board to trade down with our pick, get two mid picks, and hope Aleksej hasn't gone off the board by the time our first pick is up. I haven't seen many drafts have him in the top 10 at all, so I wouldn't say it's unrealistic. More than anything, I don't want our sole pick to be a multi-year project, even in a ""weak"" draft.

[Uriel]

We already have a project big man from Europe who‘s young and highly skilled, yet extremely raw.

[Ocotillo]

Are team doctors going to get a look at these potential picks this year? As young as this guy is, he may grow some more vertically and I have some concerns about the durability of guys that are overly tall.

[TD 21]

You swing for the fences in a crap draft like this. You have nothing to lose but maybe a rotation level player. If you look at all of those guys on the unicorn list, really only the two Americans, Embiid and JJ jr, were at all known quantities. Kristaps generated some pre draft buzz, but a lot of people thought the Knicks were crazy to draft him where they did. This is how you stumble across a unicorn: you draft unafraid. You don’t think floors, you think ceilings.

That's not true. Porzingis went where projected and it was obvious with the way the game was trending that the 76ers should have taken him over Okafor.

Samanic shouldn't necessarily prevent the selection of Pokusevski, but at the same time it's one thing to swing for the fences with this archetype/project once and when you have two 1sts, but to go back to back, only star potential would make it worthwhile. Otherwise, just select from the cadre of high floor wings projected to be available.


Are team doctors going to get a look at these potential picks this year? As young as this guy is, he may grow some more vertically and I have some concerns about the durability of guys that are overly tall.

Yeah, plus he has no position defensively. He probably needs to be a four on offense/five on defense, but he'd need to put on 30 pounds just to graduate to light weight.

[R. DeMurre]

Nice conversation on Poku here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1954863&start=220

[R. DeMurre]

Yeah, plus he has no position defensively. He probably needs to be a four on offense/five on defense, but he'd need to put on 30 pounds just to be a light weight.

I think this is a legit concern, but he was named to the All Defensive first team in his league this season, so at least he has that mindset. And if he's playing the same position(s) as Bertans or Giannis (in theory) maybe 20 lbs is plenty. It seems he's getting many of the same critiques as Bol Bol did, and although there's nothing certain there yet, it does look like that pick is working out pretty good.

[TD 21]

I think this is a legit concern, but he was named to the All Defensive first team in his league this season, so at least he has that mindset. And if he's playing the same position(s) as Bertans or Giannis (in theory) maybe 20 lbs is plenty. It seems he's getting many of the same critiques as Bol Bol did, and although there's nothing certain there yet, it does look like that pick is working out pretty good.

Bertans and Antetokounmpo are big wings aka nominal fours. Pokusevski is a big.

Bol was drafted 44th, not 11th. It's all relative.

I get that the seemingly high floor wings aren't sexy for an 11th pick, but you can't have too many useful wings in this league. Keep stockpiling, sort it out later and you can fill other holes by utilizing one or some of them.

[Chinook]

Really don't want him, and definitely don't agree with the logic of swinging for the fences because the draft is "bad". Even if the average good player in bad drafts are like Waiters, Schroeder or THJ, those players have actual value, especially on their rookie deals. Each of those players also netted first-rounders in subsequent trades, so it's not even just an on-court thing.

Drafts are not dice rolls. Players don't succeed or fail by chance. No personnel exec should be looking at guys like Pokusevski thinking "Well there's a 10-percent chance he becomes a star, and that's worth more than a 90-percent chance this guy becomes a role-player" or whatever. The development staff needs to say, "Yes, we believe we can make a development plan to get him to these levels at these times." If they start talking about a priori odds and shit, get rid of them. Value analysis is for uninvolved people like us ST folk, not for anyone with any control over the direction of the team. Draft the guy if you think he WILL be a star, not because there's a small chance and no one else is an obvious star or whatever.

The goal of those guys should be to win, especially given that Pop is going to retire soon, and they will no longer have the luxury of dozing in a tenured management system. Very few people around the team should think they have to luxury to play the long game when it comes to drafting raw players.

[BackHome]

Bol Bol was mocked as a top 10 pick before his injury which was the main reason he dropped so far.

Agree there is risk like any team you have to judge the risk vs reward.

[Chinook]

Bertans and Antetokounmpo are big wings aka nominal fours. Pokusevski is a big.

Bol was drafted 44th, not 11th. It's all relative.

I get that the seemingly high floor wings aren't sexy for an 11th pick, but you can't have too many useful wings in this league. Keep stockpiling, sort it out later and you can fill other holes by utilizing one or some of them.

Not to mention that being more developed doesn't necessarily mean having a lower ceiling. For all the obsession with projecting Giannis on every tall and skinny Euro who can dribble, Kawhi's leap was also unprecedented, and he was considered to be a high-floor, meh-ceiling guy. Paul George and Jimmy Butler are other examples. You have Giannis and KP as far as the "unicorn" guys, and honestly KP can't hold the jocks of anyone else in this conversation. If the dude was never a Knick, he'd've never made an All-Star game, even though he's played really well at times. He was a good pick at 3 and would've been fantastic at 11, but he provided a very real amount of value to the Knicks to where other players might've still be outperforming him in terms of career production to date.

[Gibbz]

I would be happy with this dude at 11. Bust potential of course but he has some eye-popping assets already at 18.

[spurspl]

You need to watch more video of this kid. My guess is you have not watched any at all. The dude can go coast to coast. Not sure I have ever seen a 7 footer bring the ball up the court like a PG, before.

i have watched vids of him and im sure that he wouldnt physically survive in a usa college. However im impressed of his skills.

[Chinook]

Yeah, actually looking at B-Ball Ref. Kristaps ranks 8 and 11 in terms of WS/48 and win-shares, respectively, among his draft class. He's being mostly outdone by guys considered to have a way lower ceiling. I'd say in terms of prospects, only KAT and Turner are close to him in potential. It's possible KP moves up the leaderboards as time goes on (though guys like Booker may jump him instead), but at this point, he's not even a Knick anymore. His value to them is never going to change (though you can argue that the picks they got for him matter, but that leads to a bunch of rabbit holes).

Even when a guy puts it together, it doesn't instantly makes him a franchise guy that's worth all the opportunity cost. There's been only one Giannis. Teams should only try so hard to find the next one.

[TD 21]

Not to mention that being more developed doesn't necessarily mean having a lower ceiling. For all the obsession with projecting Giannis on every tall and skinny Euro who can dribble, Kawhi's leap was also unprecedented, and he was considered to be a high-floor, meh-ceiling guy. Paul George and Jimmy Butler are other examples. You have Giannis and KP as far as the "unicorn" guys, and honestly KP can't hold the jocks of anyone else in this conversation. If the dude was never a Knick, he'd've never made an All-Star game, even though he's played really well at times. He was a good pick at 3 and would've been fantastic at 11, but he provided a very real amount of value to the Knicks to where other players might've still be outperforming him in terms of career production to date.

Good point. White's ceiling looks to be somewhere between solid starter and star and he was a 23 year old 29th pick. Even if he ultimately settles in as a low end to solid starter, that's still outstanding value at that spot.

Some of these wings projected to go around 11, I could see being low end to solid starters, which is good value, especially in a draft lacking at the high end. I feel there's a better chance they hit that ceiling than Pokusevski, who could easily not pan out altogether.

[exstatic]

It's not that I'm afraid of the possibilities of a bust, and I certainly agree with your philosophy; it's just that the Spurs have already "swung for the fences" to draft a unicorn-like player in Luka last season, and we still don't even know whether he'll work out at the NBA level, and probably won't know for at least another year. At a certain point, you have to start drafting known quantities, if not only because San Antonio isn't the best FA location and we've already been spurned in the past. There is a real hole at the 4 and less so at 5 in our team, especially moving forward, and I would probably rather have a player like Achiuwa, who not only fits the bill from day 1 but also has quite the upside both offensively and defensively, than someone like Pokusevski who has the higher ceiling but is just as likely to cap out as a role player in 3 years than he is of being out of the league in that same span. Giannis-like transformations are the exception, not the rule, and I'd personally prefer the Spurs to keep their project drafting to a minimum at a time.

Having said that, I'm also on board to trade down with our pick, get two mid picks, and hope Aleksej hasn't gone off the board by the time our first pick is up. I haven't seen many drafts have him in the top 10 at all, so I wouldn't say it's unrealistic. More than anything, I don't want our sole pick to be a multi-year project, even in a ""weak"" draft.

I don think anyone saw Luka as a unicorn. He was much more like an American player, an enticing package of physical attributes, 6’10” 38” vertical, coupled with some raw talent. Poku is much more like Kristaps than Luka. You can’t just draft a player, thinking that might be your unicorn, and wait for their full development cycle to see. If you have another shot, you take it, especially in a crap draft like this one. What if you trade down, and miss him? What if you grab him, and both he AND Luka blow up? Having your big man positions manned for a decade or longer wouldn’t be the worst thing ever.

Besides, we’ve already made a safe pick since Luka: Keldon.

[objective]

Something maybe worth considering with Pokusevski as well as any other 'project' player ...

As of now there's lots of speculation that there won't even be a G-League this year. This could make it harder to develop projects, though certainly Denver seems to have developed young players fine without a g-league team iirc.

I suppose that might also be a setback for Samanic.

[DAF86]

The lack of mass should be a non-issue, tbh. Pretty much every man in the history of the World is a skinny fuck at age 18 and starts to bulk up as soon as he hits 20. Specially freakishly tall guys like these. There's no way this guy doesn't put up an acceptable amount of muscle mass, in the upcoming years, with the help of professional athletes diets and drugs.

I gotta admit, the idea of the Spurs drafting this guy it's starting to sound more and more entacing each day. Pat Williams and this guy are my new 1a and 1b.

[exstatic]

Something maybe worth considering with Pokusevski as well as any other 'project' player ...

As of now there's lots of speculation that there won't even be a G-League this year. This could make it harder to develop projects, though certainly Denver seems to have developed young players fine without a g-league team iirc.

I suppose that might also be a setback for Samanic.

My guess is that by New Years, there will be a vaccine, so they’ll probably have an abbreviated season.

[DAF86]

If the Spurs draft this guy, they probably stash him, so the G-league thing would be another non-issue.

[exstatic]

If the Spurs draft this guy, they probably stash him, so the G-league thing would be another non-issue.

It would depend on a few things, like if the Spurs give him a promise at 11, that would be a good place and draft position for him. He’d go much higher next year, I think, but there’s the ol’ injury risk.

[R. DeMurre]

If the Spurs draft and stash Pokusevski, he'll spend a year playing with Nikola Milutinov-- also a Spurs draft pick & also from Serbia-- on the Olympiacos team.

[BackHome]

Speaking of Nikola if for some strange reason some teams offers mad money for Poodle do you let him go and sign Nikola?

[R. DeMurre]

Speaking of Nikola if for some strange reason some teams offers mad money for Poodle do you let him go and sign Nikola?

Oops, I was wrong-- looks like he is leaving his Greek team and signing with CSKA Moscow: https://www.eurohoops.net/en/euroleague/1049362/cska-nikola-milutinov-to-sign-21-contract/

[exstatic]

Speaking of Nikola if for some strange reason some teams offers mad money for Poodle do you let him go and sign Nikola?

No. He was drafted right before the rules changes that made traditional centers obsolete. Poodle can at least switch out and hold his own on D.

[rankingtear]

Same agent as Luka they would probably play the same position too.

[exstatic]

Same agent as Luka they would probably play the same position too.

Luka’s probably a 3/4 with his handle and athleticism, while Poku will likely develop into a 4/5.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/682030438702018565/2fFqUqj2_normal.png

Eurohoops @Eurohoopsnet
(https://twitter.com/Eurohoopsnet) 5h (https://twitter.com/Eurohoopsnet/status/1297842228300316672)
Aleksej Pokusevski leaving for the States to practice before the draft eurohoops.net/en/euroleague/… (https://t.co/FBOsgOr31K)

[cd98]

Cause it needs to be done

https://www.thestepien.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Screen-Shot-2020-02-24-at-7.18.36-AM.png

Aleksej Pokusevski

College: NA
Position: PF/c
Age: 18.48
Height: 7 foot
Weight: 201 pounds
Draft Range: 4 to 20

Why: If the Spurs want more rings, they need a ring-worthy centerpiece. Picking 11, that’s challenging (there is a serious chance, IMO, that he will be gone before 11). Poku has that ceiling : Poku’s a unicorn prospect – very young, physically under-developed, but very promising. The following comparison is IMO instructive : http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=aleksej-pokusevski--obi-toppin--kristaps-porzingis . Note who gets the most rebounds per 36, blocks, steals (and assists). He’s a 3 pt shooter (.505 attempt rate), and his FT% (again, the best of the 3) suggests he will shoot a good 3FG% in the long run…

Why Not: He's too skinny to deal with the NBA right now. The question is, do you think he will fill out? How soon? I will note that Gobert, Porzingis and Giannis all came over roughly as skinny as he is now, and managed just fine in the long run… Young men don’t tend to fill out until they stop growing vertically, and he’s only 18 and a half.

Spurs Fit: Welcome to Austin … for at least a year, and maybe 2. It really depends on his development after that, but even if he remains skinny, there have been twigs in the NBA before. His current skills are enough to be a decent perimeter 4, with some shooting, playmaking and acceptable perimeter and help (but not post) defense. Even limited physical improvement will make him Keith van Horn.

Comparison - Ceiling: Dirk (with D!)

Spurs Comparison - Floor: Ryan Richards

Statistics (http://www.tankathon.com/players/aleksej-pokusevski)

Scouting Report (https://www.thestepien.com/2020/02/24/aleksej-pokusevski-scouting-report/)

Love this comp. This guy could go anywhere from being one of the best players in the history of the game to a guy barely good enough to sit on the bench in summer league. There's a lot of in between on that.

[cd98]

If the Spurs draft this guy, they probably stash him, so the G-league thing would be another non-issue.

Spurs should not be stashing any first round draft picks. This team is in rebuild mode. They should play all their young players.

[rankingtear]

Spurs should not be stashing any first round draft picks. This team is in rebuild mode. They should play all their young players.

Have you seen this kid, if he played in the NBA next season he'll be out of the league before his first contract ends. He's skin and bones right now.

[cd021]

My guess is that by New Years, there will be a vaccine, so they’ll probably have an abbreviated season.

Yeah, but it seems that it wouldn't be widely available until summer of 2021 and it may not be 100% effective either. The G-league may end up having to do its own bubble, which probably isn't worth it financially.

[Dejounte]

Yeah, but it seems that it wouldn't be widely available until summer of 2021 and it may not be 100% effective either. The G-league may end up having to do its own bubble, which probably isn't worth it financially.

So why doesnt the gleague play in the same bubble as the NBA and just do night shift? Regular people do it.... I guess they wouldnt have fan attendance in that scenario...

[Ditty]

Luka is probably going to kick our ass for many years to come. We need all the high risk/high reward type of players because no play max worthy is going to sign here anytime soon. We need to strike gold again to contend anytime soon. Nevertheless Patrick Williams is still my preferred pick .

[DAF86]

This guy makes some awesome points about Pokusevski's game:

NaKDjwDFSBo

Those per 36 stats are eye opening: 17 ppg, 12 rpg, 5 apg, 3 bpg and 2 spg. The guy is a stat stuffing machine. He does a little bit of everything.

But the thing that most caught my attention were those 7,5 attempted 3s per game. He shot more than half of his attempts beyond the 3pt line. You wanted volume 3pt shooting? There You have it. Sure, he only makes 32% from 3, but the fact that he isn't afraid to keep putting them up, paired with the fact that he shot 78% from the free throw line makes up for a very encouriging shooting potential.

To all of that add the "it" factor he displays on these highlights. It reminds me a bit of Manu with that flair for risky but spectacular plays. This tells me the kid believes he's a star, and believing is half the battle. This is the third time I have flip flopped on my number one target but I think this time is for good. I want the Spurs to draft this guy at 11.

[cd021]

So why doesnt the gleague play in the same bubble as the NBA and just do night shift? Regular people do it.... I guess they wouldnt have fan attendance in that scenario...

This bubble think has worked far better than anyone could've expected. I think the thinking was that logistically, adding a couple hundred more players to the mix wouldn't be worth the trouble.

I wonder if after the playoffs, would the NBA keep the courts intact at Disney and in the off-season, try a extended summer league--but obviously in Fall/Winter.

[BatManu20]

Hard pass tbh. This guy is fool’s gold. One the worst defenders of any 1st Round prospect in this draft and his frame isn’t conducive to putting on a lot of muscle. Skinny shoulders. He played against weak competition in a weak league last year and his numbers were still pedestrian. Please don’t waste a pick on this dude. I’m confident Spurs are smart enough not to.

[BatManu20]

Honestly I hope he shoots up draft boards and goes in the top-10 so the Spurs aren’t even tempted tbh.

[objective]

Here's some additional context for Pokusevski that only occurred to me while watching that Locked on Fantasy video when I finally registered that he played for Olympiakos and what that really meant. I knew he played in the Greek B-division but never paid much mind to whether it was for Olympiakos or Panathanaikos or AEK or Aris.

BUT

Here's what some people are missing contextually, and if everyone has been posting about this or knew it I apologize.

Some knock him for not playing more with the Olympiakos main team. Because surely, if he was any good, wouldn't he be playing with the big club?

Not so fast.

Olympiakos didn't play in the 1st division Greek Domestic League, the HEBA A-1. That's good for anywhere from 25-40 games a year.

The reason was a typical Greek dispute like the street fights that happen in their arenas. If I remember right Olympiakos' owner got so pissed off at the officiating last season that he was demanding independent refs or some other typical nonsense, and the Greek league refused. So then either Olympiakos withdrew for the season in pouting protest or they were banned. It doesn't really matter.

But the impact is that younger players in Europe typically get more time with the main club during the domestic play. Take a look at Advija, who barely played in Euroleague but had a ton of minutes and eventual MVP (such as it was) in domestic Israeli league. Avdija played 371 minutes in Euroleague (26 games - 5starts), but would go on to play 910 minutes in the Israeli league (31 games - 21 starts).

Even on Olympiakos, you can look at the career stats of someone like Vasilis Toliopoulos (undrafted 2018), who would barely register in the Euroleague but did play some A-1 games, often playing between 5-30x as many total minutes each season in A-1 compared to Euroleague.

So while it may be discouraging from a development perspective as far as court time, I don't think people should read too much in him 'only' playing B-division ball. Because nobody on Olympiakos was allowed to play A-1.

[leo07251413]

https://youtu.be/PZRgRZoiQaU

I love his confidence on the first comment!

[cd021]

Honestly I hope he shoots up draft boards and goes in the top-10 so the Spurs aren’t even tempted tbh.

Other non top-10 players moving up the draft board means others move down. Hopefully that helps the Spurs. I remember when Hampton seemed like a lock for a top 10 pick but I've seen him in the 20s because players like Okoro, Williams, and Vassell have shot up the board.

[DAF86]

Hard pass tbh. This guy is fool’s gold. One the worst defenders of any 1st Round prospect in this draft

He is one of the best rim protectors of the entire draft and he gets steals at a high rate. That alone makes him far from one of the worst defenders of any first round prospect. Toppin, for example, is much worse than him, imho. This kid can at least move laterally.


and his frame isn’t conducive to putting on a lot of muscle. Skinny shoulders.

Like I already said, this is a non-issue for me. He's a 7 foot teenager, he's suppossed to be a skinny fuck. Giannis was 190 lbs when he got drafted, that's less than what Pokusevski weights. Sure, Pokusevski doesn't have Giannis frame to bulk up like he did, but he should be fine anyways. Worst case scenario, the NBA's elite diet (and PEDs) only allow for Pokusevski to built up like a Davis Bertans. A taller, longer, more talented Davis Bertans is fine with me, tbh.


He played against weak competition in a weak league last year and his numbers were still pedestrian. Please don’t waste a pick on this dude. I’m confident Spurs are smart enough not to.

His numbers are actually better than Giannis' while playing on exactly the same league.

[Kurgan]

Outside of playing in the same league, I don't get the Giannis comparisons. He was much more athletic than Poku currently is. This guy is highly skilled for his age but he also has the body type that's probably going to result in an injury prone career, not too dissimilar to Kirilenko or Porzingis.

[DAF86]

Outside of playing in the same league, I don't get the Giannis comparisons. He was much more athletic than Poku currently is. This guy is highly skilled for his age but he also has the body type that's probably going to result in an injury prone career, not too dissimilar to Kirilenko or Porzingis.

Did you see the coordination and quickness with which this 7 foot guy moves on tight spaces? He's literally a guard on a 7 foot body. That behind the back, between the legs dribble he pulls between two defenders and the out of bounds line is some filthy stuff I have never seen before from a guy his size (at the 4:50 minutes mark of the video I posted). He's also pretty bouncy.

I really don't know how much more athletic Giannis is to this guy, tbh. Giannis probably jumps higer and runs faster (and yes, I'm being totally racist here :lol), but Pokusevski doesn't seem to be any kind of bum on either of these areas. Pair that with the unbelieavable coordination he displays (to me, even better than Giannis') on this footage, and I don't think the athletic disparity is very significant at all.

I will try to find some full games from this guy to have a better picture.

[DAF86]

For anyone interested, here I found one.

3puWL6ABMH4

[DAF86]

For anyone interested, here I found one.

3puWL6ABMH4

Outside all the obvious great plays he makes on this game, look at how he directs traffic on defense at the 1:10:00 mark to tell his teammate to switch so he could stay closer to the basket and ends up making the defensive stop as a result. High basketball IQ, tbh.

[DAF86]

For anyone interested, here I found one.

3puWL6ABMH4

That was a very good game from Pokusevski. The best thing is he didn't even need to have a good shooting night to be, by far, the best player on the court on both sides of the floor. By looking at his stats this seemed to be a pretty standard game from him. Not the best raw efficiency (although good in terms of effective FG) nor the most eye popping scoring display, but an all around dominant performance. Passing, playmaking, rebounding, rim protecting, stealing, he had everything. The cherry on top were that game icing rebound and clutch free throws.

The thing I'm most impressed with is his ability to be a game wrecker on defense despite not being a great one on one defender. The dude just has a knack for the ball. Whether it is on lose balls, rebounds, blocking or anticipating passing lanes, the ball always seems to find his hands. I'm gonna watch more games of him, but if they are like this one (which I believe they will), I'm more than sold on him being my guy.

The only thing I didn't like as much is how much he freelanced on defense. Some times he gambled too much or lost his man trying to come up with a big play. But then again, like I said on the previous paragraph, on this game at least it payed off more often than not.

[Dejounte]

Preliminary observations:

-doesnt play like his size at all. not sure if it was the angle the camera is filming or that his back looks permanently arched like Shawn Marion or Timmy D giving an illusion that hes shorter
-his 1 on 1 defense appears non existent, and its not because hes weak or physically related. Not confident that even if he bulks up that there will be a sudden improvement on that end. He has no instincts there at all.
-he plays with a certain rhythm on offense. Not sure how to explain it, but seems like he has practiced the art of timing on passes
-theres a player he reminds me of but cant think of him right now
-youre drafting this guy for offense. You dont hope he will develop into a shutdown defender. Right now, his ceiling to me is a quality 6th man to throw off defenses. Maybe like a Boris Diaw without the defense (there we go! I remember now)
-development wise, i see the same struggles Luka had this season. So you better be patient as hell and close your eyes to avoid being frustrated how easily he gets bullied by stronger players

[Dejounte]

P.s. you would think there would be reports of RC Buford being in attendance for any of Poku's games if the Spurs were interested, but there werent any... RC was at Deni's this year, and Luka's last year

[exstatic]

Preliminary observations:

-doesnt play like his size at all. not sure if it was the angle the camera is filming or that his back looks permanently arched like Shawn Marion or Timmy D giving an illusion that hes shorter
-his 1 on 1 defense appears non existent, and its not because hes weak or physically related. Not confident that even if he bulks up that there will be a sudden improvement on that end. He has no instincts there at all.
-he plays with a certain rhythm on offense. Not sure how to explain it, but seems like he has practiced the art of timing on passes
-theres a player he reminds me of but cant think of him right now
-youre drafting this guy for offense. You dont hope he will develop into a shutdown defender. Right now, his ceiling to me is a quality 6th man to throw off defenses. Maybe like a Boris Diaw without the defense (there we go! I remember now)
-development wise, i see the same struggles Luka had this season. So you better be patient as hell and close your eyes to avoid being frustrated how easily he gets bullied by stronger players

As pointed out here several times, he has high rates for both blocks and steals, and in the composite video, can be seen quarterbacking their defense, moving players, calling switches. His defense is anything BUT non existent. He moves well laterally, too.

[exstatic]

P.s. you would think there would be reports of RC Buford being in attendance for any of Poku's games if the Spurs were interested, but there werent any... RC was at Deni's this year, and Luka's last year

The Spurs completely ignored Kawhi during his draft process. They didn’t even work out or interview him. There have been too many times that teams trade in front of us and grab players (Batum, Gobert) that the Spurs show interest in.

[Dejounte]

As pointed out here several times, he has high rates for both blocks and steals, and in the composite video, can be seen quarterbacking their defense, moving players, calling switches. His defense is anything BUT non existent. He moves well laterally, too.

Chill. Maybe I should emphasize "preliminary" more? Anyway, I don't think high rates for blocks and steals are indicative of anything unless its at the NBA level. And i believe I specifically said 1 on 1 defense, meaning laterally staying in front of your man, standing your ground, how your hands are when youre in that position, etc. He floats around on defense a lot, gives a lot of space for his man. Wooty doo for being vocal on defense... Im trying to watch for more than that. By the way, let me say preliminary again.... Ill probably be posting more as i watch more

[Dejounte]

The Spurs completely ignored Kawhi during his draft process. They didn’t even work out or interview him. There have been too many times that teams trade in front of us and grab players (Batum, Gobert) that the Spurs show interest in.

I wouldnt say they completely ignored Kawhi. If it wasnt for Coach Cal we wouldnt know at all that they scouted Keldon. Cal revealed it just right after the bubble. There were no reports of the Spurs scouting Keldon leading up to drafting him (as far as im aware)

[Dejounte]

Also i think theres a difference between scouting internationally and scouting in the NCAA. Youre most likely to be found out (if youre trying to do it discretely) overseas than you are in the NCAA.

[exstatic]

Chill. Maybe I should emphasize "preliminary" more? Anyway, I don't think high rates for blocks and steals are indicative of anything unless its at the NBA level. And i believe I specifically said 1 on 1 defense, meaning laterally staying in front of your man, standing your ground, how your hands are when youre in that position, etc. He floats around on defense a lot, gives a lot of space for his man. Wooty doo for being vocal on defense... Im trying to watch for more than that. By the way, let me say preliminary again.... Ill probably be posting more as i watch more

You base a lot of your analysis on what players do in the NCAA. Precious stayed in front of a guard! The reality is that on draft day, maybe 40-45 NCAA players will hear their names called, and the rest will drift off into obscurity. It’s not a great brand of b-ball. GMs lose their jobs for falling for the hype. Kids come into the NBA not really understanding how to set a motherfucking pick. They know nothing about team defense, critical in today’s NBA.

Three things that absolutely project from one level to the next in b-ball are rebounds, steals, and blocks, and he does all of those.

[exstatic]

I wouldnt say they completely ignored Kawhi. If it wasnt for Coach Cal we wouldnt know at all that they scouted Keldon. Cal revealed it just right after the bubble. There were no reports of the Spurs scouting Keldon leading up to drafting him (as far as im aware)

They totally ignored Kawhi. What you think doesn’t enter into the equation. The only input they got was by discretely talking to Steve Fisher, his coach at SDSU. They weren’t even able to see him shoot until he got bored waiting for his turn to do a test at the combine. He picked up a basketball, and started shooting jumpers at the other end of the gym from where the players were being evaluated. Chip just happened to be there, even though Kawhi wasn’t scheduled to shoot for any teams, and took notes.

[Dejounte]

You base a lot of your analysis on what players do in the NCAA. Precious stayed in front of a guard! The reality is that on draft day, maybe 40-45 NCAA players will hear their names called, and the rest will drift off into obscurity. It’s not a great brand of b-ball. GMs lose their jobs for falling for the hype. Kids come into the NBA not really understanding how to set a motherfucking pick. They know nothing about team defense, critical in today’s NBA.

Three things that absolutely project from one level to the next in b-ball are rebounds, steals, and blocks, and he does all of those.

I didnt say everything players did in the NCAA was irrelevant, just that steals and blocks are. Steals and blocks are contingent on both sides: the player handling the ball and the player defending the ball handler (and other variables like steals in the passing lane or weakside blocking which has nothing to do with 1 on 1 defense, that's team defense). The level of ball security outside of the NBA is so bad, that stats for steals and blocks are highly skewed. That's just a fact if you watch a full college or euro game. You see an enormous amount of extra passes, or a lot of miscommunication passes that lead to turnovers that lead to you being waived if you were on an NBA team.

[Dejounte]

They totally ignored Kawhi. What you think doesn’t enter into the equation. The only input they got was by discretely talking to Steve Fisher, his coach at SDSU. They weren’t even able to see him shoot until he got bored waiting for his turn to do a test at the combine. He picked up a basketball, and started shooting jumpers at the other end of the gym from where the players were being evaluated. Chip just happened to be there, even though Kawhi wasn’t scheduled to shoot for any teams, and took notes.

We are going way off the topic here so let's end this trail soon... I consider "discretely talking to Steve Fisher" as scouting. You dont have to see a player live for it to be considered scouting. Also, you dont think the Spurs sent scouts to his college games and it went unreported?

[Dejounte]

Alot of the analysis I make when I evaluate players is watching what they do in college and asking myself if they can do that in the NBA. If Precious can stay in front of a quick guard in college, he likely can stay in front of a slow guard in the NBA (if everything is bigger and faster in the NBA). That is why it is important to note such things, because I surely havent seen that ability from most of the prospects I've watched.

Listen, I honestly like what ive seen from Poku so far and would put him in my tier 2 list. Having a Boris Diaw on this team would be useful.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/UAr6FdSdENM


https://youtu.be/UaXTDhkPo9c



https://youtu.be/CRG-Nzpoz-I

Aleksej appears to play like he's "grounded" like Boris. Like he's playing on Jupiter gravity.

Damn all this is making me miss Boris. What a fun player to watch.

[Chinook]

Diaw's weight and mobility at that weight were critical to his game. Just being a big with a floor game and passing skills isn't good enough to clone Bobo.

[Dejounte]

Diaw's weight and mobility at that weight were critical to his game. Just being a big with a floor game and passing skills isn't good enough to clone Bobo.

Yeah im not saying theyre 1:1. There's shades of Diaw there. Especially the "dribble turn" move is almost identical. Also the form on the layup looks identical. Differences are obviously the strength, Poku cant post up like Boris did. But Boris' game evolved throughout his career. Poku is a bit like young Boris, who didnt have the weight and had more mobility.

[DAF86]

Diaw's weight and mobility at that weight were critical to his game. Just being a big with a floor game and passing skills isn't good enough to clone Bobo.

Pokusevski doesn't have just a floor game though. Hence his shot blocking and rebounding prowess.

[Dejounte]

Diaw's weight and mobility at that weight were critical to his game. Just being a big with a floor game and passing skills isn't good enough to clone Bobo.


https://youtu.be/k7Gwiz8USAA

At 0:39, this is SUCH a Diaw move.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Diaw's weight and mobility at that weight were critical to his game. Just being a big with a floor game and passing skills isn't good enough to clone Bobo.


That's dead on. Boris had the court awareness of a PG in that big frame. He wasn't just a good passer for a big man - he was an elite passer for a big man. A lot of people either forget or never understood that he led the team in assists in that '14 Championship series. (Led both teams in AST, actually.) But he was also the second best rebounder (on both teams), just behind Duncan.

[Seventyniner]

I didnt say everything players did in the NCAA was irrelevant, just that steals and blocks are. Steals and blocks are contingent on both sides: the player handling the ball and the player defending the ball handler (and other variables like steals in the passing lane or weakside blocking which has nothing to do with 1 on 1 defense, that's team defense). The level of ball security outside of the NBA is so bad, that stats for steals and blocks are highly skewed. That's just a fact if you watch a full college or euro game. You see an enormous amount of extra passes, or a lot of miscommunication passes that lead to turnovers that lead to you being waived if you were on an NBA team.

Maybe the point is that it's not about the absolute number of blocks and steals, but instead those numbers relative to the rest of the league in question. It's been a while since I have seen the analysis showing which stats tend to translate from NCAA and other lower leagues to the NBA, though.

[DAF86]

That's dead on. Boris had the court awareness of a PG in that big frame. He wasn't just a good passer for a big man - he was an elite passer for a big man. A lot of people either forget or never understood that he led the team in assists in that '14 Championship series. (Led both teams in AST, actually.) But he was also the second best rebounder (on both teams), just behind Duncan.

Check the game I posted of Pokusevski. He displays the same elite vision and passing.

[DAF86]

Seriously folks, if anyone has the time you should check that entire game of Pokusevski. He does some really special things. Many of which don't even show up in the box score. Advancing through the death time and the moments Pokusevski is on the bench, it doesn't take more than half an hour.

[Dejounte]

That's dead on. Boris had the court awareness of a PG in that big frame. He wasn't just a good passer for a big man - he was an elite passer for a big man. A lot of people either forget or never understood that he led the team in assists in that '14 Championship series. (Led both teams in AST, actually.) But he was also the second best rebounder (on both teams), just behind Duncan.

I don't disagree. Boris was elite in passing. That's why I miss watching him play. Let's wait a few years for Poku to show us if he is anywhere around that level.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Check the game I posted of Pokusevski. He displays the same elite vision and passing.


I don't disagree. Boris was elite in passing. That's why I miss watching him play. Let's wait a few years for Poku to show us if he is anywhere around that level.


I'll watch it. Boris was almost unique in his combination of skills and size. Pokusevski (he really needs a nickname) wouldn't have to be that to make an NBA squad. I haven't looked that deep at him, just because he's so light for his height. But I have to admit that the clips show some good passing, and he runs the floor like a damn gazelle.

There were several guys last year that I would have liked to see the Spurs take, who were destined for early second round picks. He could be one of those. If he is still on the board at 41, and they could put him in Austin for a year?

[Sugus]

I'll watch it. Boris was almost unique in his combination of skills and size. Pokusevski (he really needs a nickname) wouldn't have to be that to make an NBA squad. I haven't looked that deep at him, just because he's so light for his height. But I have to admit that the clips show some good passing, and he runs the floor like a damn gazelle.

There were several guys last year that I would have liked to see the Spurs take, who were destined for early second round picks. He could be one of those. If he is still on the board at 41, and they could put him in Austin for a year?

Unless his medicals are absolutely god-awful, I don't see him falling into the second round or close to it - especially in a draft with as much uncertainty as this one. Not a chance some team at the 20's doesn't fall in love with his upside and gives him a shot, I could especially see a team like the Raptors doing it since they have no urgent need for him. Though I do agree that taking him at 11 feels like an absolute reach, to me at least.

[DAF86]

I'll watch it. Boris was almost unique in his combination of skills and size. Pokusevski (he really needs a nickname) wouldn't have to be that to make an NBA squad. I haven't looked that deep at him, just because he's so light for his height. But I have to admit that the clips show some good passing, and he runs the floor like a damn gazelle.

There were several guys last year that I would have liked to see the Spurs take, who were destined for early second round picks. He could be one of those. If he is still on the board at 41, and they could put him in Austin for a year?

When I first started paying attention to the whole draft thing he was a second rounder. Then he jumped to the late first round, then to the mid first round, and now there are some rumblings about him being a top 10 pick (although probably he will be picked mid first). The Spurs would have to draft him at 11 if they want him. I would be willing to take the risk, tbh.

[R. DeMurre]

Hard pass tbh. This guy is fool’s gold. One the worst defenders of any 1st Round prospect in this draft and his frame isn’t conducive to putting on a lot of muscle. Skinny shoulders. He played against weak competition in a weak league last year and his numbers were still pedestrian.

He was named to the All defense First Team in the league where he played, where he was one of the youngest players. His FG% was pedestrian, but almost every other stat-- rebounds, assists, steals, blocks-- were far above average. He's an incredibly smart shot blocker as a weak side helper. I agree that switching on smaller players would be an issue.

[R. DeMurre]

Boris Diaw is an interesting comp, but remember, before joining the Spurs Diaw wasn't always viewed so positively. With Phoenix, he was a guy without a position (before positionless basketball was so much in vogue) whose advanced stats were pretty average. With Charlotte, he was considered a guy with a terrible attitude who frustrated coaches and teammates by refusing to shoot. He hit his stride as Mr Versatility with the Spurs, but still wasn't much of a scorer. When Pop used him in limited minutes to defend LeBron, it pretty much shocked everybody as a reasonably successful strategy. They're obviously very different players, but the Diaw/Kirilenko/Giannis Lite comparisons make sense in terms of all around versatility, not so much as one-to-one similarities.

[Chinook]

Boris Diaw is an interesting comp, but remember, before joining the Spurs Diaw wasn't always viewed so positively. With Phoenix, he was a guy without a position (before positionless basketball was so much a thing) whose advanced stats were pretty average. With Charlotte, he was considered a guy with a terrible attitude who frustrated coaches and teammates by refusing to shoot. He hit his stride as Mr Versatility with the Spurs, but still wasn't much of a scorer. When Pop used him in limited minutes to defend LeBron, it pretty much shocked everybody as a reasonably successful strategy. They're obviously very different players, but the Diaw/Kirilenko/Giannis Lite comparisons make sense in terms of all around versatility, not so much as one-to-one similarities.

Actually, it worked out horribly, which only shocked people who thought you need to guard players with guys the same size. That's why Pop didn't do it in the Finals the next year. We're not even talking about a "Bowen checked Dirk" kinda thing where Dirk scored his average unbothered by Bruce's defense but still a comparable job to a generic big-man defender. We're talking about absolute abuse during that stretch.

Kinda off topic, I know.

[Dejounte]

Boris Diaw is an interesting comp, but remember, before joining the Spurs Diaw wasn't always viewed so positively. With Phoenix, he was a guy without a position (before positionless basketball was so much a thing) whose advanced stats were pretty average. With Charlotte, he was considered a guy with a terrible attitude who frustrated coaches and teammates by refusing to shoot. He hit his stride as Mr Versatility with the Spurs, but still wasn't much of a scorer. When Pop used him in limited minutes to defend LeBron, it pretty much shocked everybody as a reasonably successful strategy. They're obviously very different players, but the Diaw/Kirilenko/Giannis Lite comparisons make sense in terms of all around versatility, not so much as one-to-one similarities.

I agree. I'm primarily looking at the way they move (defensive stance, first step, layup package, passing creativity) on the court and their tendencies (Poku shoots more 3s but if Diaw was in this era too he would probably do the same). Ive yet to listen to any of his interviews to get a read of where his mind is at.

Im really not sure how people are getting the Giannis comp though... Giannis has exceptional physical tools and he is fast. He gets his assists with bullet passes from the gravity he pulls in when he goes in for a drive. Poku doesnt do that at all. He is more of a craftier player and finds unique angles for passes.

[R. DeMurre]

Actually, it worked out horribly, which only shocked people who thought you need to guard players with guys the same size. That's why Pop didn't do it in the Finals the next year. We're not even talking about a "Bowen checked Dirk" kinda thing where Dirk scored his average unbothered by Bruce's defense but still a comparable job to a generic big-man defender. We're talking about absolute abuse during that stretch.

Kinda off topic, I know.

I don't remember it that way.

"James went 3-of-21 when guarded by Diaw last postseason and averaged 0.40 points per play (he averaged nearly 1.0 point per play against everyone else). Diaw’s size and speed created major problems for James. James was 1-of-6 posting up Diaw, 1-of-5 when driving on him and 1-of-10 when guarded by him outside 10 feet."




https://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/91060/guarding-lebron-is-spurs-top-priority

[Chinook]

"James went 3-of-21 when guarded by Diaw last postseason and averaged 0.40 points per play (he averaged nearly 1.0 point per play against everyone else). Diaw’s size and speed created major problems for James. James was 1-of-6 posting up Diaw, 1-of-5 when driving on him and 1-of-10 when guarded by him outside 10 feet."

https://www.espn.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/91060/guarding-lebron-is-spurs-top-priority

James played horribly against most defenders for the first five games of the series. Pop's strategy was to force James to take long-twos, and for the longest time, Lebron let it happen. Then he had his turning point in Game Six and just abused Diaw. I had a thread about it back in the day. The short of it is that it was a five-man defense focused almost exclusively on Lebron, similar to what they did in 2007. I'm not saying Boris couldn't follow a gameplan, but once Lebron figured out the scheme, Diaw's inability to stay with Lebron on the perimeter negated the fact that James couldn't back Boris down in the post the way he could smaller guys (because back then, Lebron was a PF almost exclusively).

[Russ]

So who would you take between Pokusevski and Avdija? Trying to get a "sense of the room."

The comparison is somewhat inapt because the Spurs have the 11th pick. There's about a 95% chance that Avdija will be gone at 11 and about an 80% chance (albeit it trending down) that Poku will be there at 11 (according to most mock drafts).

But assuming they were both available, who would you take. (I'd take Avdija but Poku is generating so much enthusiasm I'm interested in other opinions.)

[R. DeMurre]

James played horribly against most defenders for the first five games of the series. Pop's strategy was to force James to take long-twos, and for the longest time, Lebron let it happen. Then he had his turning point in Game Six and just abused Diaw. I had a thread about it back in the day. The short of it is that it was a five-man defense focused almost exclusively on Lebron, similar to what they did in 2007. I'm not saying Boris couldn't follow a gameplan, but once Lebron figured out the scheme, Diaw's inability to stay with Lebron on the perimeter negated the fact that James couldn't back Boris down in the post the way he could smaller guys (because back then, Lebron was a PF almost exclusively).

I'm not seeing it... LeBron was 11-26 in Game 6 and the Spurs likely grab the title there if not for Manu's uncharacteristically horrible 8 TOs and -21. In 23 minutes, Diaw was +1.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306180MIA.html

[exstatic]

When I first started paying attention to the whole draft thing he was a second rounder. Then he jumped to the late first round, then to the mid first round, and now there are some rumblings about him being a top 10 pick (although probably he will be picked mid first). The Spurs would have to draft him at 11 if they want him. I would be willing to take the risk, tbh.

It wouldn’t shock me to see NY pick him at 8. The NBA lottery gods took a giant crap on them by knocking them back two places. One of Poku’s comps is Kristaps, and they pulled the trigger on him a lot higher than the #8 spot where they sit now.

[Dejounte]

So who would you take between Pokusevski and Avdija? Trying to get a "sense of the room."

The comparison is somewhat inapt because the Spurs have the 11th pick. There's about a 95% chance that Avdija will be gone at 11 and about an 80% chance (albeit it trending down) that Poku will be there at 11 (according to most mock drafts).

But assuming they were both available, who would you take. (I'd take Avdija but Poku is generating so much enthusiasm I'm interested in other opinions.)

Deni 10 times out of 10. Some players are born winners. Pop called Keldon one. Manu was one. Tim Duncan was one. They know all the little things they have to do to win. Deni has seen the pressure and has beaten it. It takes time for other players to know what to do in those situations. Thats why "playoff experience" is a thing. But when you know how to win like the players I mentioned, it's not as critical.

[Chinook]

I think people overrate height, especially how important it is independent from girth. So it doesn't matter to me how Poke's skill are "for a seven-footer". Like who cares? How many dominate seven-foot perimeter players are there? Giannis and KD are close enough to count. When talking about PG and Simmons, you're getting into the 6-9/6-10 range which has a lot of skilled players nowadays. It's not a requirement to be a good perimeter player or PF to be that tall. The advantage is supposed to be how skilled a player is for being a certain position. Like maybe an actualized Poke would be a center who couldn't be guarded by his own position (too skilled) or any lower position (too big). But the thing is, he's not too big. We're talking about him hopefully being a good PF in the league. If he plays there, his perimeter advantages are not nearly as striking. He could theoretically shoot over smaller guys, Dirk style, but Dirk was heafty enough to create space with his back to the basket, which Poke may not be against PFs, and even if he can, that's not really considered to be a good shot anymore.

I'm not saying he won't be good. I'm not a scout (don't even play one on the Internet), and I'm sure he looks good on tape. I am saying that's probably at a level where his physical advantages (height, length, skill for his size) are outweighing the disadvantages (lack of strength, potentially mobility and posture issues). In bigger leagues with more experienced players that may change. And you can expect Poke to get at least a little better, but the NBA is so much better than a Euro youth team that he could get A LOT better and still not be good enough. That's not a reason not to draft him, but it is a reason to be a bit more conservative when looking at his footage. There's a big gap between what a player can do when he's the most talented player on the floor and what he can do when he's not the most talented player on the floor. The same way Metu looks awesome in the d-league but awful with the big club because he's too ambitious for his skill level, Poke may well not be able to do a lot of the perimeter things he's showing now at the NBA level. He may come over and even stick in the league while only having part of his game translate.

[Chinook]

I'm not seeing it... LeBron was 11-26 in Game 6 and the Spurs likely grab the title there if not for Manu's uncharacteristically horrible 8 TOs and -21. In 23 minutes, Diaw was +1.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306180MIA.html

James scored 37 points in the next game, with Diaw -18

But yes, the Spurs would've won Game Six if not for like a million things. They had three opportunities to take the lead with under a minute left (thanks to Green making that GOAT defensive play and fouling James on the next possession to lead to a Wade clanker).

[Ocotillo]

Pokusevski (he really needs a nickname)

Pokemon?

[R. DeMurre]

I'll watch it. Boris was almost unique in his combination of skills and size. Pokusevski (he really needs a nickname) wouldn't have to be that to make an NBA squad. I haven't looked that deep at him, just because he's so light for his height. But I have to admit that the clips show some good passing, and he runs the floor like a damn gazelle.



His nickname in Greece was Poku.

[BackHome]

So who would you take between Pokusevski and Avdija? Trying to get a "sense of the room."

The comparison is somewhat inapt because the Spurs have the 11th pick. There's about a 95% chance that Avdija will be gone at 11 and about an 80% chance (albeit it trending down) that Poku will be there at 11 (according to most mock drafts).

But assuming they were both available, who would you take. (I'd take Avdija but Poku is generating so much enthusiasm I'm interested in other opinions.)

Agree Deni 10 times out of 10 the kid has such a high basketball IQ and is so damn smooth and would love to try and go get him in a trade. One thing I like is both him and Poku.. have high B Ball IQ and are very skilled for there position and both seem to have that competitive spirit you definitely want in a player.

[ZeusWillJudge]

When I first started paying attention to the whole draft thing he was a second rounder. Then he jumped to the late first round, then to the mid first round, and now there are some rumblings about him being a top 10 pick (although probably he will be picked mid first). The Spurs would have to draft him at 11 if they want him. I would be willing to take the risk, tbh.


I didn't know he was being discussed that high, but the internet is full of people who make lists for a living. So how/when do you see him fitting in the NBA? (Never mind the Spurs for now.) He's 7' and weighs around 190 lbs. Would you want him to stay lean or put on weight to be able to compete more on the inside as well? I'm not knocking the guy - I can see things to like about him.

I don't know if you remember when Kevin Garnett first got drafted, but he was too light when he arrived and he was still somewhere around 220 lbs - and he had that sort of honey badger personality. He had to get up to around 240 to really get the most out of his talent. Poeltl was somewhere around 240 at the combine, and he had to get stronger before he could compete. Pokusevski is 4 inches taller than Pascal Siakam, and 40 lbs. lighter. The leverage would kill him trying to defend someone like that.

Like I said, I don't hate him, and you guys have piqued my interest. I don't see how Pokusevski could survive without putting on 30 lbs. or so, minimum. That's a lot, and it would almost have to change the role he would play. I'm just trying to picture him putting on that much bulk without pharmaceutical help, or a couple of years of hard work. I think someone like Saddiq Bey could get minutes on this team in his rookie season. Or Tyler Bey for that matter.

[BackHome]

I think people overrate height, especially how important it is independent from girth. So it doesn't matter to me how Poke's skill are "for a seven-footer". Like who cares? How many dominate seven-foot perimeter players are there? Giannis and KD are close enough to count. When talking about PG and Simmons, you're getting into the 6-9/6-10 range which has a lot of skilled players nowadays. It's not a requirement to be a good perimeter player or PF to be that tall. The advantage is supposed to be how skilled a player is for being a certain position. Like maybe an actualized Poke would be a center who couldn't be guarded by his own position (too skilled) or any lower position (too big). But the thing is, he's not too big. We're talking about him hopefully being a good PF in the league. If he plays there, his perimeter advantages are not nearly as striking. He could theoretically shoot over smaller guys, Dirk style, but Dirk was heafty enough to create space with his back to the basket, which Poke may not be against PFs, and even if he can, that's not really considered to be a good shot anymore.

I'm not saying he won't be good. I'm not a scout (don't even play one on the Internet), and I'm sure he looks good on tape. I am saying that's probably at a level where his physical advantages (height, length, skill for his size) are outweighing the disadvantages (lack of strength, potentially mobility and posture issues). In bigger leagues with more experienced players that may change. And you can expect Poke to get at least a little better, but the NBA is so much better than a Euro youth team that he could get A LOT better and still not be good enough. That's not a reason not to draft him, but it is a reason to be a bit more conservative when looking at his footage. There's a big gap between what a player can do when he's the most talented player on the floor and what he can do when he's not the most talented player on the floor. The same way Metu looks awesome in the d-league but awful with the big club because he's too ambitious for his skill level, Poke may well not be able to do a lot of the perimeter things he's showing now at the NBA level. He may come over and even stick in the league while only having part of his game translate.

I don’t think Metu dominated G League in fact I think Eubanks pretty much out performed him most of the time for a guy not even drafted. Metu did show flashes but his issue he always played “ME” team ball he definitely did not like to pass not sure if he was told but came across as someone who thought he was much better then what he was.

[Dejounte]

I think people overrate height, especially how important it is independent from girth. So it doesn't matter to me how Poke's skill are "for a seven-footer". Like who cares? How many dominate seven-foot perimeter players are there? Giannis and KD are close enough to count. When talking about PG and Simmons, you're getting into the 6-9/6-10 range which has a lot of skilled players nowadays. It's not a requirement to be a good perimeter player or PF to be that tall. The advantage is supposed to be how skilled a player is for being a certain position. Like maybe an actualized Poke would be a center who couldn't be guarded by his own position (too skilled) or any lower position (too big). But the thing is, he's not too big. We're talking about him hopefully being a good PF in the league. If he plays there, his perimeter advantages are not nearly as striking. He could theoretically shoot over smaller guys, Dirk style, but Dirk was heafty enough to create space with his back to the basket, which Poke may not be against PFs, and even if he can, that's not really considered to be a good shot anymore.

I'm not saying he won't be good. I'm not a scout (don't even play one on the Internet), and I'm sure he looks good on tape. I am saying that's probably at a level where his physical advantages (height, length, skill for his size) are outweighing the disadvantages (lack of strength, potentially mobility and posture issues). In bigger leagues with more experienced players that may change. And you can expect Poke to get at least a little better, but the NBA is so much better than a Euro youth team that he could get A LOT better and still not be good enough. That's not a reason not to draft him, but it is a reason to be a bit more conservative when looking at his footage. There's a big gap between what a player can do when he's the most talented player on the floor and what he can do when he's not the most talented player on the floor. The same way Metu looks awesome in the d-league but awful with the big club because he's too ambitious for his skill level, Poke may well not be able to do a lot of the perimeter things he's showing now at the NBA level. He may come over and even stick in the league while only having part of his game translate.

So you're talking about excess height, not height in general. Because if you were talking about height in general, Bryn Forbes' lack of height isn't doing him any favors. In regards to Poku's excess height and the skills in tandem with his height, I agree it doesnt matter when you're speaking exclusively about offense. On the defensive end, it's a different story and something we've discussed in great lengths already. Length is important for team defense, not so much in 1 on 1 defense. Length looks like it helps Poku as evidenced by the block and steal rates (though I'm not convinced as you that it will easily translate).

If Poku was a regular 6'8" player, I would still be impressed and would still be under consideration in my tier 2 list. That's based off from what I've witnessed from his play (albeit in lower league, as you said). I don't think it's worth it to be 100% dismissive of his play due to that fact, but the eye test simply shows a player who has talent. He has a slight similarity with how I evaluated Nicolas Claxton last year.

[BackHome]

I didn't know he was being discussed that high, but the internet is full of people who make lists for a living. So how/when do you see him fitting in the NBA? (Never mind the Spurs for now.) He's 7' and weighs around 190 lbs. Would you want him to stay lean or put on weight to be able to compete more on the inside as well? I'm not knocking the guy - I can see things to like about him.

I don't know if you remember when Kevin Garnett first got drafted, but he was too light when he arrived and he was still somewhere around 220 lbs - and he had that sort of honey badger personality. He had to get up to around 240 to really get the most out of his talent. Poeltl was somewhere around 240 at the combine, and he had to get stronger before he could compete. Pokusevski is 4 inches taller than Pascal Siakam, and 40 lbs. lighter. The leverage would kill him trying to defend someone like that.

Like I said, I don't hate him, and you guys have piqued my interest. I don't see how Pokusevski could survive without putting on 30 lbs. or so, minimum. That's a lot, and it would almost have to change the role he would play. I'm just trying to picture him putting on that much bulk without pharmaceutical help, or a couple of years of hard work. I think someone like Saddiq Bey could get minutes on this team in his rookie season. Or Tyler Bey for that matter.

I agree with some posters regarding the concern of his weight and ability to put on weight with those narrow shoulders but Kevin Garnett and Kevin Durant where both around 216 pds when they where drafted and both where a year older then Poku. If I am selecting him it’s with the understanding he will not weigh over 244 pds just not going to happen and probably would not want that much weight for him to carry. I think I would try to get him to add 5 to 10 pds of muscle a year would be good for him and yeah he good juice up but I would avoid that at his age due to long term causes with tendons and muscle tears. As someone mentioned at 18 most kids are really skinny he needs a year or two before you start adding a lot of weight on his knees and ankles.

[exstatic]

I don’t think Metu dominated G League in fact I think Eubanks pretty much out performed him most of the time for a guy not even drafted. Metu did show flashes but his issue he always played “ME” team ball he definitely did not like to pass not sure if he was told but came across as someone who thought he was much better then what he was.

Metu was awful his first year in the gleague. He was 4th or 5th on the team in rebounding.

[exstatic]

I didn't know he was being discussed that high, but the internet is full of people who make lists for a living. So how/when do you see him fitting in the NBA? (Never mind the Spurs for now.) He's 7' and weighs around 190 lbs. Would you want him to stay lean or put on weight to be able to compete more on the inside as well? I'm not knocking the guy - I can see things to like about him.

I don't know if you remember when Kevin Garnett first got drafted, but he was too light when he arrived and he was still somewhere around 220 lbs - and he had that sort of honey badger personality. He had to get up to around 240 to really get the most out of his talent. Poeltl was somewhere around 240 at the combine, and he had to get stronger before he could compete. Pokusevski is 4 inches taller than Pascal Siakam, and 40 lbs. lighter. The leverage would kill him trying to defend someone like that.

Like I said, I don't hate him, and you guys have piqued my interest. I don't see how Pokusevski could survive without putting on 30 lbs. or so, minimum. That's a lot, and it would almost have to change the role he would play. I'm just trying to picture him putting on that much bulk without pharmaceutical help, or a couple of years of hard work. I think someone like Saddiq Bey could get minutes on this team in his rookie season. Or Tyler Bey for that matter.

If you’re looking for a player who will play minutes next year, those are your guys.

Just FYI, year one minutes aren’t the be all and end all. Gobert was thin, spent time in the gleague, and averaged 2.3p/3.4r/0.9 balks in 45 games and started 0. He’s now an AllNBA player.

You can play it safe and get a ready to go rotation player for a non playoff team, or you can swing for the fences. You could strike out, or maybe, just maybe, you could hit a home run.

[spurspl]

So who would you take between Pokusevski and Avdija? Trying to get a "sense of the room."

The comparison is somewhat inapt because the Spurs have the 11th pick. There's about a 95% chance that Avdija will be gone at 11 and about an 80% chance (albeit it trending down) that Poku will be there at 11 (according to most mock drafts).

But assuming they were both available, who would you take. (I'd take Avdija but Poku is generating so much enthusiasm I'm interested in other opinions.)

if poku had a different body type it would be really tough one. But for now and probably for 2-3yrs deni looks better and is already ready to play 20+ mpg

[mo7888]

So who would you take between Pokusevski and Avdija? Trying to get a "sense of the room."

The comparison is somewhat inapt because the Spurs have the 11th pick. There's about a 95% chance that Avdija will be gone at 11 and about an 80% chance (albeit it trending down) that Poku will be there at 11 (according to most mock drafts).

But assuming they were both available, who would you take. (I'd take Avdija but Poku is generating so much enthusiasm I'm interested in other opinions.)

Deni....it's not even close.

[R. DeMurre]

I agree with some posters regarding the concern of his weight and ability to put on weight with those narrow shoulders but Kevin Garnett and Kevin Durant where both around 216 pds when they where drafted and both where a year older then Poku. If I am selecting him it’s with the understanding he will not weigh over 244 pds just not going to happen and probably would not want that much weight for him to carry. I think I would try to get him to add 5 to 10 pds of muscle a year would be good for him and yeah he good juice up but I would avoid that at his age due to long term causes with tendons and muscle tears. As someone mentioned at 18 most kids are really skinny he needs a year or two before you start adding a lot of weight on his knees and ankles.


He actually seems to have bulked up a little in the most recent photos. I wouldn't be surprised if he was 210 lbs now... admittedly, that's still thin, but nothing like the many photos of him online at 17/18 when he weighed 195.

[phxspurfan]

Super long term project for a team who doesn't need immediate contribution. If we are going for The Process, maybe he's on the board round 2

[RC_Drunkford]

I'm not seeing it... LeBron was 11-26 in Game 6 and the Spurs likely grab the title there if not for Manu's uncharacteristically horrible 8 TOs and -21. In 23 minutes, Diaw was +1.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201306180MIA.html

don't forget Pop's legendary all-bench line ups

[exstatic]

Super long term project for a team who doesn't need immediate contribution. If we are going for The Process, maybe he's on the board round 2

He won’t be. He has the chops to be a top 5 player in this draft, and teams aren’t as dumb as they used to be. He won’t get past Dallas at 17, and could be gone at 8 to NY as a Kristaps replacement.

[DAF86]

I didn't know he was being discussed that high, but the internet is full of people who make lists for a living. So how/when do you see him fitting in the NBA? (Never mind the Spurs for now.) He's 7' and weighs around 190 lbs. Would you want him to stay lean or put on weight to be able to compete more on the inside as well? I'm not knocking the guy - I can see things to like about him.

I don't know if you remember when Kevin Garnett first got drafted, but he was too light when he arrived and he was still somewhere around 220 lbs - and he had that sort of honey badger personality. He had to get up to around 240 to really get the most out of his talent. Poeltl was somewhere around 240 at the combine, and he had to get stronger before he could compete. Pokusevski is 4 inches taller than Pascal Siakam, and 40 lbs. lighter. The leverage would kill him trying to defend someone like that.

Like I said, I don't hate him, and you guys have piqued my interest. I don't see how Pokusevski could survive without putting on 30 lbs. or so, minimum. That's a lot, and it would almost have to change the role he would play. I'm just trying to picture him putting on that much bulk without pharmaceutical help, or a couple of years of hard work. I think someone like Saddiq Bey could get minutes on this team in his rookie season. Or Tyler Bey for that matter.

I like Saddiq Bey as a high floor, low ceiling 3 and D guy. Pokusevski is definitely a high risk-high Reward kind of guy. He could never see a minute in the NBA, or he could be a top 5 player for years to come. I wouldn't be mad if the Spurs take the chance. In fact, I would like them to.

Regarding the weight issue, yeah, I would like him to bulk up a bit, but not that much, tbh. I fear that if he fills up too much he will lose that movement and coordination that makes him unique.

[Chucho]

I don't get this thread.

It's a twig boy that looks good against scrub Eurotrash. The best argument is that Giannis had similar stats and size at that age and that Giannis and Kawhi took monumental steps in their development.

The last two years of this board has been nothing but bitching and moaning about how we need a properly sized, 2-way wing who can contribute immediately. A lot of people bitch that KJ is not the proper size AND we've drafted how many tall, twiggy "multi-faceted", white big men from all over the globe the last 15 years and how many really panned out or even made it over seas?

Giannis is a unicorn simply being black and coming to the NBA from inferior eurotrash leagues and succeeding. I can't think of any other Euroleague players of African descent that have come from over there and achieved at his level.

Not a Scola thread, but considering OP has this dude rated in a range equal to a whore's cunt girth, this is a frivolous waste of a pick. We're a borderline playoff team coming up on some cap flexibility in a fairly open season next year.

Succeed. No need to stash and pray for a skinny, twiggy kid who happens to be white to come where there is no need or space for him right now. We aren't unloading Aldridge and Poodle knows "the system", so even if Twiggy McEurotrash makes the roster, he's still riding pine and getting stints in the development league.

[ZeusWillJudge]

If you’re looking for a player who will play minutes next year, those are your guys.

Just FYI, year one minutes aren’t the be all and end all. Gobert was thin, spent time in the gleague, and averaged 2.3p/3.4r/0.9 balks in 45 games and started 0. He’s now an AllNBA player.

You can play it safe and get a ready to go rotation player for a non playoff team, or you can swing for the fences. You could strike out, or maybe, just maybe, you could hit a home run.


Can't disagree with any of that. Still, I'd like to hear how a couple of you see him being used - say in his third season. I think Garnett would have struggled his whole career if he hadn't gotten up to 240 lbs. For this kid, that's a 50 lb. upgrade. A 7-foot perimeter guy would be a real unicorn.

I'd love to see a 7-footer with real passing skills, just to help the team get the damn ball inbounded. :lol

[DAF86]

So who would you take between Pokusevski and Avdija? Trying to get a "sense of the room."

The comparison is somewhat inapt because the Spurs have the 11th pick. There's about a 95% chance that Avdija will be gone at 11 and about an 80% chance (albeit it trending down) that Poku will be there at 11 (according to most mock drafts).

But assuming they were both available, who would you take. (I'd take Avdija but Poku is generating so much enthusiasm I'm interested in other opinions.)

Having seen full games of both, Pokusevski filled my eyes a lot more. The dude can impact the game in pretty much every area. I think I'm seriously not exagerating if I say that not a full minute went by without Pokusevski doing something positive on the floor. Whether it is a rebound, a block shots, a steal, a pass, a score, etc, the dude was constantly making his prescence felt. Avdija can dissappear for long stretches even with your entire attention focusing solely in him.

But, of course, there's the competition level to consider. Pokusevski played mostly on the Greek second league and in the under 18 Eurobasket. While Avdija won MVP of the Israeli first division. Thankfully the Spurs pick 11 instead of 6 and they won't need to make a choice between the two. I don't know if it is because I've paying more attention to the guys on the 8-15 range, but I like them a lot more than the top 8 prospects.

[DAF86]

He won’t be. He has the chops to be a top 5 player in this draft, and teams aren’t as dumb as they used to be. He won’t get past Dallas at 17, and could be gone at 8 to NY as a Kristaps replacement.

Cuban is licking his chops at the prospect of adding him to his list of great White hopes from Europe. He will definitely pick Poku if he's available.

[BackHome]

Yep mock all ready have Dallas picking him.

[R. DeMurre]

Can't disagree with any of that. Still, I'd like to hear how a couple of you see him being used - say in his third season. I think Garnett would have struggled his whole career if he hadn't gotten up to 240 lbs. For this kid, that's a 50 lb. upgrade. A 7-foot perimeter guy would be a real unicorn.

I'd love to see a 7-footer with real passing skills, just to help the team get the damn ball inbounded. :lol

I don't know his true weight now, but it's definitely not 190 lbs. He weighed in at 189 at the Basketball without Borders of the NBA All Star game, which happened in January of 2019 (17 months ago), 196 at the BWB Eurocamp in June '19 (14 months ago), and then at 205 at the beginning of the Olympiacos season (Oct '19, 11 months ago). My guess is he's at least 210 now, as most recent pics show him to not be nearly as thin as the pics from 2018/19.


https://www.eurohoops.net/en/nba-news/807693/aleksej-pokusevski-in-the-bwb-of-the-nba-all-star-game/
https://eurospects.com/?page_id=8163

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/XePawiufv3M
DEFENSE

32:23 bad defense. Gets blown by

37:24 same bad defense. Gets blown by

39:36 AGAIN bad defense in the same corner. Gets blown by

41:23 WAY out of position on defense on this play

48:19 seems like he was day-dreaming on defense on this play, lets the opposing player drive by him

49:32 someone tell me what he was thinking during this fast break by the other team? He just went to no man’s land. Didn’t attempt to cover the ball handler to try and deflect the pass

1:00:50 he is literally just WALKING on defense, not paying attention to his man. His man is wide open for a three and shoots it without any cover (misses it because these guys aren’t NBA players)

1:27:28 Feet are not quick enough to recover from the stepback, gave way too much space for the shooter

1:30:20 being slow footed here again on defense

1:49:01 this rebound SUMS up his physical prowess… WOW. If you are going to watch one play from this list I made, watch this one. What a joke…





OFFENSE

1:29:58 his length and height did him no favors here. He’s being defended by a really short dude and missed horribly. NO strength whatsoever to back down the smaller player

1:50:03 probably the only real offensive highlight from the whole game



I watched this whole game and Poku was invisible during the most of the game. Maybe it was an off game but I don’t see the “massive impact” on offense some posters here claim he has. I’m not writing him off yet, but this POOR display of defense makes me believe he’ll have a difficult time sniffing the court for the Spurs.



Also, I see now how he gets his blocks. It’s when he trails a player and chases them from behind for the block. I don’t see that happening at the NBA level where players are much faster. He rarely had a block during a 1 on 1 defensive sequence (think Keldon on Doncic)



So while I was up on Poku this morning, I’m now down on him tonight lmao. Such is the way of evaluating players.

[Dejounte]

Honestly, after watching Bryn Forbes for a couple years and his insufferable defense, I dont know how any of you are able to tolerate any form of poor defense. No matter how good one's offense can be, poor defense will always irk me.

[DAF86]

https://youtu.be/XePawiufv3M
DEFENSE

32:23 bad defense. Gets blown by

37:24 same bad defense. Gets blown by

39:36 AGAIN bad defense in the same corner. Gets blown by

41:23 WAY out of position on defense on this play

48:19 seems like he was day-dreaming on defense on this play, lets the opposing player drive by him

49:32 someone tell me what he was thinking during this fast break by the other team? He just went to no man’s land. Didn’t attempt to cover the ball handler to try and deflect the pass

1:00:50 he is literally just WALKING on defense, not paying attention to his man. His man is wide open for a three and shoots it without any cover (misses it because these guys aren’t NBA players)

1:27:28 Feet are not quick enough to recover from the stepback, gave way too much space for the shooter

1:30:20 being slow footed here again on defense

1:49:01 this rebound SUMS up his physical prowess… WOW. If you are going to watch one play from this list I made, watch this one. What a joke…





OFFENSE

1:29:58 his length and height did him no favors here. He’s being defended by a really short dude and missed horribly. NO strength whatsoever to back down the smaller player

1:50:03 probably the only real offensive highlight from the whole game



I watched this whole game and Poku was invisible during the most of the game. Maybe it was an off game but I don’t see the “massive impact” on offense some posters here claim he has. I’m not writing him off yet, but this POOR display of defense makes me believe he’ll have a difficult time sniffing the court for the Spurs.



Also, I see now how he gets his blocks. It’s when he trails a player and chases them from behind for the block. I don’t see that happening at the NBA level where players are much faster. He rarely had a block during a 1 on 1 defensive sequence (think Keldon on Doncic)



So while I was up on Poku this morning, I’m now down on him tonight lmao. Such is the way of evaluating players.

The guy was selected to the league's all-defense team but, sure, let's go with cherry picks from a random poster on the internet with a clear agenda. :lol

[exstatic]

Can't disagree with any of that. Still, I'd like to hear how a couple of you see him being used - say in his third season. I think Garnett would have struggled his whole career if he hadn't gotten up to 240 lbs. For this kid, that's a 50 lb. upgrade. A 7-foot perimeter guy would be a real unicorn.

I'd love to see a 7-footer with real passing skills, just to help the team get the damn ball inbounded. :lol

Garnett played in a different NBA. Big men roamed the paint with impunity, and dominated the NBA landscape. Think of how nba PFs play now. No one posts up. Everyone parks at the 3 point line. Post defense isn’t required of 1-4. I think you have his weight wrong. He’s 200, and if he could get to even 225, he has a chance to be special, with his Swiss Army knife game. Think of how you normally evaluate prospects. He heeds work on his jump shot, or to tighten his handle, or needs to learn the pick and roll game. ALL this kid needs is 25 lbs. Thats it. His game is pretty damn advanced and complete.

[Dejounte]

The guy was selected to the league's all-defense team but, sure, let's go with cherry picks from a random poster on the internet with a clear agenda. :lol

What agenda? I clearly was for the guy. How can I be cherry picking when theres multiple instances. Holy shit. You're a fraud, dude. You post these full videos and claim you watch them. I back my shit up with evidence and don't make baseless comments like you do constantly. Again, fuck off and fuck you. Youre the worst fucking poster on here.

Bu-bu-but league's best defender! How can you say with a straight face after watching these games? These fucking players suck! You can't even go look at the time stamps I listed and refute them because you're fucking lazy, a fraud, and stupid.

[DAF86]

What agenda? I clearly was for the guy. How can I be cherry picking when theres multiple instances. Holy shit. You're a fraud, dude. You post these full videos and claim you watch them. I back my shit up with evidence and don't make baseless comments like you do constantly. Again, fuck off and fuck you. Youre the worst fucking poster on here.

At this point, disagreeing with everything I say. I think I could say I changed my tune about Vassell and he sucks, and you would suddenly say that he's the next Jordan and the Spurs need to draft him. :lol

[DAF86]

FWIW, I already said that his one on one defense isn't a strength and that he freelances too much on defense and gets lost some time. However, his overall impact on that side of the floor still makes him a plus defender, hence why he was selected to the all-defensive team of the league.

You can't watch just one game and focus only on his bad possessions and declare him a defensive liability. You need to watch a handful of games, take the good and the bad and see which outweights the other.

[Dejounte]

At this point, disagreeing with everything I say. I think I could say I changed my tune about Vassell and he sucks, and you would suddenly say that he's the next Jordan and the Spurs need to draft him. :lol

Not everything revolves around your stupid ass. I find gratification when I help other posters get an idea of how a player plays for them because they don't have time. If I were giving them dishonest takes because of my hatred towards you, that would make it pointless. I don't spend hours of my time plotting shit against you. Again, fuck off.

[DAF86]

Not everything revolves around your stupid ass. I find gratification when I help other posters get an idea of how a player plays for them because they don't have time. If I were giving them dishonest takes because of my hatred towards you, that would make it pointless. I don't spend hours of my time plotting shit against you. Again, fuck off.

You certainly seemed to believe it did for a while there, untill other posters started calling you out on your weird fixation, tbh. :lol

[Dejounte]

You certainly seemed to believe it did for a while there, untill other posters started calling you out on your weird fixation, tbh. :lol

Alright, you done being off the subject?

[DAF86]

Alright, you done being off the subject?

I don't know, you tell me. :lol

[Dejounte]

I don't know, you tell me. :lol

Who's fixated on who here?

[DAF86]

Who's fixated on who here?

You, on me.

[BackHome]

Your correct his defense could be better but he is 18 years old overall I look at a players foot speed his lateral moment and his willingness to get rebounds/effort for defense view point he has all that. The question will be he a a great defender probably not but he can be a good defender with the right coaching.

For the record I don’t have a clear favorite other then Deni but out of the next crop of Precious, Bey, Williams, and Nesmith, I think Poku has more upside. Would I be upset that he is not selected nope, I think the other kids all add something to the team and can be solid additions.

I do have a weird feeling that the Spurs are going to select someone we are not even talking about this year.

[Chinook]

As I said, I do believe people are way underrating how much worse his competition is than the NBA and how many generalist skills NBA players have. A lot of them can go coast to coast and finish if they aren't being guarded by NBA players. A lot of bigs can cross lesser players over and hit step-backs. When the competition is at its highest, only the very best skills are going to come through. That's why someone like Danny Green stopped having a floor game. When he was a call-up guy on the Spurs, he played completely differently, showing off a lot more dribbling and long-twos. Then he joined the club full time and just became three-and-D because the rest of his game wasn't at an NBA level. As I said, that's basically what Metu's going through right now, where the diversity of his game isn't good enough to work in the NBA, but it looks find against scrubs. The issue with Chim is that he doesn't actually have anything that's NBA level to fall back on.

[DAF86]

Your correct his defense could be better but he is 18 years old overall I look at a players foot speed his lateral moment and his willingness to get rebounds/effort for defense view point he has all that. The question will be he a a great defender probably not but he can be a good defender with the right coaching.

For the record I don’t have a clear favorite other then Deni but out of the next crop of Precious, Bey, Williams, and Nesmith, I think Poku has more upside. Would I be upset that he is not selected nope, I think the other kids all add something to the team and can be solid additions.

I do have a weird feeling that the Spurs are going to select someone we are not even talking about this year.

I think he would be a Bertans type defender on the NBA, with better rim protection and disrupting power. He could get torched if he gets targeted one on one but, at the end of the day, his rim protection and knack for getting his hands on many of the opponents possessions will level him out to be an underrated, (slightly?) above average defender.

[DAF86]

As I said, I do believe people are way underrating how much worse his competition is than the NBA and how many generalist skills NBA players have. A lot of them can go coast to coast and finish if they aren't being guarded by NBA players. A lot of bigs can cross lesser players over and hit step-backs. When the competition is at its highest, only the very best skills are going to come through. That's why someone like Danny Green stopped having a floor game. When he was a call-up guy on the Spurs, he played completely differently, showing off a lot more dribbling and long-twos. Then he joined the club full time and just became three-and-D because the rest of his game wasn't at an NBA level. As I said, that's basically what Metu's going through right now, where the diversity of his game isn't good enough to work in the NBA, but it looks find against scrubs. The issue with Chim is that he doesn't actually have anything that's NBA level to fall back on.

The NCAA level is pretty shitty too, but I don't see anybody doing the kind of stuff Pokusevski does. A kid being able to translate his game to the highest level will always be the biggest question mark. If this wasn't an issue there would be no draft busts ever in the history of the sport.

[Chinook]

The NCAA level is pretty shitty too, but I don't see anybody doing the kind of stuff Pokusevski does. A kid being able to translate his game to the highest level will always be the biggest question mark. If this wasn't an issue there would be no draft busts ever in the history of the sport.

It's not as shitty, and you will see players showing off floor games who don't have a chance of pulling them off in the pros, like with Paul Reed. And there's definitely an issue with how a coach lets a player operate. College coaches don't get paid to develop players; they get paid to win. So they aren't always going to let guys do whatever they want to on the floor. Lower-level Euro coaches are probably tasked specifically to develop guys, like NBA d-league coaches, so there are probably certain guys that they let explore their skills. That's why the Spurs' send-downs always play like superstars by the end of the year. Yes, they're more talented, but they're also given the focal spot of the team's offense to let coaches evaluate their potential at multiple things. I'd definitely argue the b-team Poke's playing on isn't close to d-league level, even though there are likely a lot D-1 college teams that are worse.

[duncan2150]

As I said, I do believe people are way underrating how much worse his competition is than the NBA and how many generalist skills NBA players have. A lot of them can go coast to coast and finish if they aren't being guarded by NBA players. A lot of bigs can cross lesser players over and hit step-backs. When the competition is at its highest, only the very best skills are going to come through. That's why someone like Danny Green stopped having a floor game. When he was a call-up guy on the Spurs, he played completely differently, showing off a lot more dribbling and long-twos. Then he joined the club full time and just became three-and-D because the rest of his game wasn't at an NBA level. As I said, that's basically what Metu's going through right now, where the diversity of his game isn't good enough to work in the NBA, but it looks find against scrubs. The issue with Chim is that he doesn't actually have anything that's NBA level to fall back on.

That's my point since the beginning, the level of the Greek division 2 is really low. That's not against poku but it's difficult to evaluate the guy.

Imo is ceilling is really large, I'm not sure he will Be a superstar or a bust.

I could be wrong but I want a more ready guy in this draft.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/HNsin-o0Lpg

Watching this full game now

If you want an example of how laughably bad this league is, check out the play at 26:24 (doesn't involve Poku)

And another dumbass play at 34:37

Honestly, these games feel like high school games than they are professional games

[DAF86]

It's not as shitty, and you will see players showing off floor games who don't have a chance of pulling them off in the pros, like with Paul Reed.

Arguable, tbh. Pokusevski at least played vs grown ass men in his league. NCAA is very overrated by US NBA fans, that's why a prodigy like Luka, that dominated the second highest level of basketball as a teenager, wasn't the the consensous number pick two years ago. He should have been almost as clear as Lebron as a number one pick, tbh.


And there's definitely an issue with how a coach lets a player operate. College coaches don't get paid to develop players; they get paid to win. So they aren't always going to let guys do whatever they want to on the floor. Lower-level Euro coaches are probably tasked specifically to develop guys, like NBA d-league coaches, so there are probably certain guys that they let explore their skills. That's why the Spurs' send-downs always play like superstars by the end of the year. Yes, they're more talented, but they're also given the focal spot of the team's offense to let coaches evaluate their potential at multiple things.

Why would professional teams, with professional grown ass men, which salaries depend on the amount of winning they do in a season, would be more willing to favour the development of a young kid over the success of the entire team, than a college team, which its mean focus should be exactly that: the development of young players?


I'd definitely argue the b-team Poke's playing on isn't close to d-league level, even though there are likely a lot D-1 college teams that are worse.

Unverifiable. You are underestimating the savy and experience of a veteran team playing against a bunch of young kids. Most NCAA teams are composed, on their majority, by kids that will never see a day on an NBA court, tbh.

[DAF86]

https://youtu.be/HNsin-o0Lpg

Watching this full game now

If you want an example of how laughably bad this league is, check out the play at 26:24 (doesn't involve Poku)

And another dumbass play at 34:37

Honestly, these games feel like high school games than they are professional games

That's the league where the soon to be B2B MVP averaged 9 points per game, tbh. It was probably even shittier back then.

Edit: actually, I got it wrong. I thought you had posted a video of the division 2 Greek league. Giannis actually averaged 8 ppg on the underage Eurobasket he played.

[Chinook]

Arguable, tbh. Pokusevski at least played vs grown ass men in his league. NCAA is very overrated by US NBA fans, that's why a prodigy like Luka, that dominated the second highest level of basketball as a teenager, wasn't the the consensous number pick two years ago. He should have been almost as clear as Lebron as number one pick, tbh.

It's not that people think the competition is that great (though the tournament-caliber teams are definitely better than U-18 Euro teams). It's that being in college exposes players to more NBA caliber talent. Maybe Poke would look good had he gone to school. Maybe he wouldn't. But he's much closer to the other Luka than he is to Doncic when it comes to overseas history.


Why would professional teams, with professional grown ass men, which salaries depend on the amount of winning they do in a season, would be more willing to favour the development of a young kid over the success of the entire team, than a college team, which its mean focus should be exactly that: the development of young players?

I get that you might not understand how college sports in the US works, but they are businesses that rely on unpaid labor. Their goal is to make money, not to teach kids to play. Coaches get paid ungodly amounts of money to get to the tournament and recruit the best talent. With the way so many guys are one-and-done, there is very little development going for many players.

B-teams are literally there to feed players into the big club. The system over there is basically like the MLB minor-league system. Guys sign on from their teams and can move up in the organization as they grow older. There's definitely a greater focus on developing guys there than even the NBA d-league, since the latter doesn't have a way to secure players' rights long enough to put in years and years of development. It's a pretty big hole that might just be starting to get filled in.


Unverifiable. You are underestimating the savy and experience of a veteran team playing against a bunch of young kids. Most NCAA teams are composed, on their majority, by kids that will never see a day on an NBA court, tbh.

I think you're more underestimating what a league full of guys who're on the margins of the league really means. A lot of the players are in the top 700 to 1000 in the world, not Euro B-teams aren't more talented. They might win based on chemistry, but it's a mistake to think that Poke is playing against even decent Greek competition.

[Atl Spur]

Give me Precious........

[DAF86]

It's not that people think the competition is that great (though the tournament-caliber teams are definitely better than U-18 Euro teams). It's that being in college exposes players to more NBA caliber talent. Maybe Poke would look good had he gone to school. Maybe he wouldn't. But he's much closer to the other Luka than he is to Doncic when it comes to overseas history.



I get that you might not understand how college sports in the US works, but they are businesses that rely on unpaid labor. Their goal is to make money, not to teach kids to play. Coaches get paid ungodly amounts of money to get to the tournament and recruit the best talent. With the way so many guys are one-and-done, there is very little development going for many players.

B-teams are literally there to feed players into the big club. The system over there is basically like the MLB minor-league system. Guys sign on from their teams and can move up in the organization as they grow older. There's definitely a greater focus on developing guys there than even the NBA d-league, since the latter doesn't have a way to secure players' rights long enough to put in years and years of development. It's a pretty big hole that might just be starting to get filled in.



I think you're more underestimating what a league full of guys who're on the margins of the league really means. A lot of the players are in the top 700 to 1000 in the world, not Euro B-teams aren't more talented. They might win based on chemistry, but it's a mistake to think that Poke is playing against even decent Greek competition.

I didn't understand what you meant. Are you saying NCAA has "a lot of" the top 700/1000 players in the World?

[Dejounte]

I just realized something...

These U18 games are as useless as dirt to evaluate players. It's like watching high school tape of US players. No one does that.

It's the A2 videos that should be paid attention to. It's the one I posted earlier with the time stamps where Poku played poorly. Poku played in 11 of those games. Having a hard time finding the other 10. These are the games with any credibility, not the U18 games.

[DAF86]

I just realized something...

These U18 games are as useless as dirt to evaluate players. It's like watching high school tape of US players. No one does that.

It's the A2 videos that should be paid attention to. It's the one I posted earlier with the time stamps where Poku played poorly. Poku played in 11 of those games. Having a hard time finding the other 10. These are the games with any credibility, not the U18 games.

Poku posted better stats on the Greek second division than on the U-18 tournament.

[Dejounte]

Poku posted better stats on the Greek second division than on the U-18 tournament.

I am aware of this, that's why I'm trying to find the games to watch. Stats arent everything. The video I posted he had a stat line of 9 pts, 12 rebounds, 3 assists, and 2 blocks, which looks decent but it wasnt even close in actuality. I look at the other game logs, and it's not better by much more. With how trigger happy he is with his 3 point shooting, it doesnt surprise me that he scored more than 9 pts in other games (highest point total was 17).

[Degoat]

I’d puke if we drafted this guy lol we already have Luka to develope

[DAF86]

I don't know why folks are suddenly bringing up level of competition as a relevant qualifier, as if the reigning MVP hadn't played in the exact same league. :lol

History has proven time and time again that players coming from different levels of competition have succeeded and failed on the NBA. You can't fixiate on where a player comes from but, rather, on the skills he displays. If the player later pans out or don't, will have little to do with which his previous level of competition was.

[Dejounte]

I don't know why folks are suddenly bringing up level of competition as a relevant qualifier, as if the reigning MVP hadn't played in the exact same league. :lol

History has proven time and time again that players coming from different levels of competition have succeeded and failed on the NBA. You can't fixiate on where a player comes from but, rather, on the skills he displays. If the player later pans out or don't, will have little to do with which his previous level of competition was.

The reigning MVP played in the A2 games. A2 games are more useful and more trusted for people who are interested in his style of play. I'm not trying to fight you. That's just the truth. Why watch college games for any player to begin with? U18 games are pointless to watch just as no one would watch high school games on US players. You preach about people should watch full games, yet you're here trying to deflect. Very odd...

It seems when you get really attached to a player, you find it hard to accept any criticism about that player. It's like a pattern with you.

[DAF86]

The reigning MVP played in the A2 games. A2 games are more useful and more trusted for people who are interested in his style of play. I'm not trying to fight you. That's just the truth. Why watch college games for any player to begin with? U18 games are pointless to watch just as no one would watch high school games on US players. You preach about people should watch full games, yet you're here trying to deflect. Very odd...

My point wasn't directed at you, but at Chinook, tbh.

And why do folks would rather watch college games than high school ones? Because college games are newer and show with more precision the level of development a player is currently at. A2 or U-18 makes little difference, tbh, the newer footage will always be more telling. However, if you can watch both, all the better.

[R. DeMurre]

It's interesting how many European sites refer to Poku as a shooting guard, not as a forward:

https://www.eurohoops.net/en/euroleague/847137/aleksej-pokusevski-became-youngest-ever-olympiacos-player-to-debut-in-euroleague/
https://www.olympiacosbc.gr/en/games-en/cup-en/cup-schedule-en/75-our-team/our-players/3598-aleksej-pokusevksi-en.html
https://www.proballers.com/basketball/player/175104/aleksej-pokusevski

[Chinook]

I didn't understand what you meant. Are you saying NCAA has "a lot of" the top 700/1000 players in the World?

You said it was unverifiable that the Olympiacos b-team is worse than d-league teams. The d-league is full of fringe NBA players. Not every d-league player is at that fringe level, and a lot of fringe players are overseas, but it's still an extremely talented league. It's certainly the second-best league in the Americas.

[Chinook]

I don't know why folks are suddenly bringing up level of competition as a relevant qualifier, as if the reigning MVP hadn't played in the exact same league. :lol

Giannis is such a lazy comparison. He, like Kawhi, had an unpredictable development curve. You can't project anyone to improve like they did. If people were saying, "Poke is going to suck; otherwise, he'd've played for a better league" then talking about Giannis makes sense. But a lot of players develop in that league and don't go on to succeed, so using Giannis as an example is problematic at best and straight deceitful at worse.


You can't fixiate on where a player comes from but, rather, on the skills he displays.

The relationship between skill-set and competition level is a real thing that you seem to be ignoring, likely because you don't realize how skilled NBA players are beyond the roles they play on their teams. Anthony Davis was a really skilled player with a guard's floor game, but you barely see him do anything outside typical big-man things because NBA guards can do guard things better than NBA bigs can, and vice versa. So Davis totally panned out, but if you were trying to look at those PG skills and projecting him on those ("Man if that can translate to the NBA"), then you'd've been wrong. Panning out of busting isn't a matter of being the same in the NBA as in lower levels. It's possible that almost none of the things people are gushing over will be good enough, but he'll be able to shoot and protect the rim enough to be a good player. Success, but not at all from the "skills he displays" against lower competition.

And of course scouts watch high-school tape. The fuck are you guys talking about? You think with all the one-and-dones that scouts are just basing their opinions on one year? Do you think teams are watching just the three games Wiseman played?

[duncan2150]

I don't know why folks are suddenly bringing up level of competition as a relevant qualifier, as if the reigning MVP hadn't played in the exact same league. :lol

History has proven time and time again that players coming from different levels of competition have succeeded and failed on the NBA. You can't fixiate on where a player comes from but, rather, on the skills he displays. If the player later pans out or don't, will have little to do with which his previous level of competition was.

As I live in Europe and I watch a little Bit of basket-ball here, I can tell you that Greek d2 is a very low level.
Again nothing against poku but it's not the same when you have young guys playing in good competition while having good stats like killyan Hayes, porzingis, Tony parker at the time.
It's pretty significant to have some good games at high level.

[Chinook]

Also, because I keep having to say this: Prospects aren't dice. They don't develop based on random chance. The developmental staff has to think in terms of the skills they believe WILL translate. They aren't going around thinking, "There's a 20-percent chance this translates, and that's worth the risk." They think, "Well he's not going to be a point-forward in the league, but he has a nice touch of his shot, so he should be able to space the floor and attack close-outs." If we're talking about second-rounders or trading for a guy as a flier, then you'll see a lot of "swings for the fences", especially for guys who will stay in Europe. But first-rounders tend to have very specific developmental plans, and those plans are not based off the "skills he displays" but on the role the staff projects for the player.

Murray is what happens when you try to develop a guy into a star without worrying about having a translatable foundation first.

[BackHome]

I don’t know how they drafted Murray thinking he could be a PG when his handles and court vision are so bad?

[Dejounte]

Chinook

The thing about Wiseman doesn't deserve an answer because the answer is obvious (same for before the straight-to-NBA rule was placed)

And what the fuck are you going to learn from high school games where players are averaging 50 points? Where the next tallest player is 6'0?

Sure, scouts may look at it briefly and get an understanding how their skills evolved over time, but as far as useful intel?

[Chinook]

Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557)

The thing about Wiseman doesn't deserve an answer because the answer is obvious (same for before the straight-to-NBA rule was placed)

And what the fuck are you going to learn from high school games where players are averaging 50 points? Where the next tallest player is 6'0?

Sure, scouts may look at it briefly and get an understanding how their skills evolved over time, but as far as useful intel?

I can almost guarantee you the Spurs looked more at Keldon's high-school tape than his college tape. They said as much for Murray. The NCAA is a different animal than high school, and players are asked to do different things. Johnson, like Patrick Williams, was a role-player in college because of the bigger names on his team. That wasn't the case in high school, where he was a highly regarded recruit. If they are seriously looking at Williams, they'll be looking at his high-school tape as well. You want to see what players can do in a lot of different situations to get a feel for their ceiling. It's not just about what the do at one competition level. In that regard, I do agree with DAFfy. I'm sure I'm going to be qualifying that in further back-and-forths with him, so I'll leave that point where it is. But yeah, it's just about looking at the development of skills. Hell, players can have bad seasons after they transition to the NCAA. These are kids we're talking about, some of whom are thousands of miles from home and surrounded by people they don't know. It's a completely different situation. And it's not like it's necessarily more pro-like, given the scheduling, campus life and the lack of financial compensation.

[exstatic]

I can almost guarantee you the Spurs looked more at Keldon's high-school tape than his college tape. They said as much for Murray. The NCAA is a different animal than high school, and players are asked to do different things. Johnson, like Patrick Williams, was a role-player in college because of the bigger names on his team. That wasn't the case in high school, where he was a highly regarded recruit. If they are seriously looking at Williams, they'll be looking at his high-school tape as well. You want to see what players can do in a lot of different situations to get a feel for their ceiling. It's not just about what the do at one competition level. In that regard, I do agree with DAFfy. I'm sure I'm going to be qualifying that in further back-and-forths with him, so I'll leave that point where it is. But yeah, it's just about looking at the development of skills. Hell, players can have bad seasons after they transition to the NCAA. These are kids we're talking about, some of whom are thousands of miles from home and surrounded by people they don't know. It's a completely different situation. And it's not like it's necessarily more pro-like, given the scheduling, campus life and the lack of financial compensation.

High school? What a terrible level of competition! You can’t possibly learn anything from that...

[Dejounte]

Lmfao look, I may have exaggerated saying you can't learn anything at all. And I clarify that by saying you get an idea what their foundation of skills are which they have grown or not grown from. My problem is taking domination in that level with anything more than a grain of salt. If you want to put that much stock into that, you do you. Scoring 60 points in very unorganized basketball or blocking 5' tall kids and saying wow, he really played awesome defense is a joke to me.

[Chinook]

High school? What a terrible level of competition! You can’t possibly learn anything from that...

Yeah, it's almost as if I'm giving a nuanced opinion on how players are evaluated and not simply taking an extreme position on the matter. Who'da thunk something like that was possible?

[BackHome]

Yeah like no one gets drafted out of High School they must go to College so we can get a true understanding of how good they can be playing in a high level of basketball program.

Oh Lebron James, Tracy McGrady, Dwight Howard, Amare Stoudemire, I guess didn’t need to play against grown men in order to be drafted in the NBA right out of High School.

[Chinook]

Lmfao look, I may have exaggerated saying you can't learn anything at all. And I clarify that by saying you get an idea what their foundation of skills are which they have grown or not grown from. My problem is taking domination in that level with anything more than a grain of salt. If you want to put that much stock into that, you do you. Scoring 60 points in very unorganized basketball or blocking 5' tall kids and saying wow, he really played awesome defense is a joke to me.

AAU exists. Like it has a million problems with how it develops guys and exploits their talents, but it exists. High school players aren't necessarily playing against massively inferior competition all the time. That doesn't even get into that there are definitely good high school leagues that have people moving from other parts of the country/world to join.

This also isn't really a "me doing me" thing. The Spurs are on record of saying they pretty much disregarded Murray's year at UW. Perhaps that was to their peril, but it's an example that high-school tape isn't just an afterthought for one-and-done players.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/jwJupAF2fvI

Again,

My problem is saying

"Look guys, watch this video and see how much he dominated this game. Very easy to see how high his ceiling in this game"

Rather

"Look guys, Jaron likes to shoot at mid-range. Theres some passing skill there. He plays with a high motor"

I watched Jaron in the g-league. Most of the stuff he does in this high school video, he barely did against g league competition. But i respect that he had those skills deep underneath, i just wont say it translates or has a high chance of translating to higher levels of competition.

[Dejounte]

AAU exists. Like it has a million problems with how it develops guys and exploits their talents, but it exists. High school players aren't necessarily playing against massively inferior competition all the time. That doesn't even get into that there are definitely good high school leagues that have people moving from other parts of the country/world to join.

This also isn't really a "me doing me" thing. The Spurs are on record of saying they pretty much disregarded Murray's year at UW. Perhaps that was to their peril, but it's an example that high-school tape isn't just an afterthought for one-and-done players.

Not discounting high school all the way, read my post above.

Not saying I don't believe you, but if you or anyone could post a link where the Spurs are on record for dismissing Murray's year at UW, that would be appreciated.

[Dejounte]

Maybe we should start posting high school tape in each of the prospect threads we have on this board, eh? It would be weird to just have it for Poku. Anyone have links to full games?

[Chinook]

Not discounting high school all the way, read my post above.

Not saying I don't believe you, but if you or anyone could post a link where the Spurs are on record for dismissing Murray's year at UW, that would be appreciated.

I may have misremembered how it happened. This is what I found that Buford said about Murray's scouting:


When did you first see him play?

RC: Some of our scouts had seen him prior to when he first went to the University of Washington, but over the course of the year we saw him several times. In the Bahamas, during one of the early-season tournaments, one of our scouts went there, I saw him play a couple of times in the [Pac-12], we had people around that group all the time.

https://www.poundingtherock.com/2016/6/24/12023026/spurs-gm-r-c-buford-talks-about-drafting-dejounte-murray

I think what may have happened is that there was a thread talking about that quote on ST, saying that the Spurs were able to project more onto Murray's developmental curve because they didn't just base it on college tape. Maybe that's not true, and there is another quote from RC going more into that. But I wouldn't know how to find it at this point.

[Chinook]

https://youtu.be/jwJupAF2fvI

Again,

My problem is saying

"Look guys, watch this video and see how much he dominated this game. Very easy to see how high his ceiling in this game"

Rather

"Look guys, Jaron likes to shoot at mid-range. Theres some passing skill there. He plays with a high motor"

I watched Jaron in the g-league. Most of the stuff he does in this high school video, he barely did against g league competition. But i respect that he had those skills deep underneath, i just wont say it translates or has a high chance of translating to higher levels of competition.

This is true. And I agree with the substance of what you're saying. Remember though that Blossom was drafted five years after this video was made. There was a ton of college tape on him, in a lot of different situations, by the time he was picked. I doubt RC and the rest of the staff looked at what he did in high school. I imagine that same thing was true for White. But with Murray, Walker and Johnson, high school/AAU was just the year before. And for multiple reasons, none of those guys got to see as many opportunities as you'd like to evaluate a player.

But yes, that does highlight the reasons for caution. Blossom showing a more complete game versus lesser competition isn't close to rare. He's a fringe-NBA player and would probably be an upper-tier guy in Europe.

[DAF86]

You said it was unverifiable that the Olympiacos b-team is worse than d-league teams. The d-league is full of fringe NBA players. Not every d-league player is at that fringe level, and a lot of fringe players are overseas, but it's still an extremely talented league. It's certainly the second-best league in the Americas.

So you meant the D-league had a lot of the 700/1000 top players in the World, not the NCAA?

[DAF86]

Giannis is such a lazy comparison. He, like Kawhi, had an unpredictable development curve. You can't project anyone to improve like they did. If people were saying, "Poke is going to suck; otherwise, he'd've played for a better league" then talking about Giannis makes sense. But a lot of players develop in that league and don't go on to succeed, so using Giannis as an example is problematic at best and straight deceitful at worse.



The relationship between skill-set and competition level is a real thing that you seem to be ignoring, likely because you don't realize how skilled NBA players are beyond the roles they play on their teams. Anthony Davis was a really skilled player with a guard's floor game, but you barely see him do anything outside typical big-man things because NBA guards can do guard things better than NBA bigs can, and vice versa. So Davis totally panned out, but if you were trying to look at those PG skills and projecting him on those ("Man if that can translate to the NBA"), then you'd've been wrong. Panning out of busting isn't a matter of being the same in the NBA as in lower levels. It's possible that almost none of the things people are gushing over will be good enough, but he'll be able to shoot and protect the rim enough to be a good player. Success, but not at all from the "skills he displays" against lower competition.

And of course scouts watch high-school tape. The fuck are you guys talking about? You think with all the one-and-dones that scouts are just basing their opinions on one year? Do you think teams are watching just the three games Wiseman played?

Why would Giannis be a lazy example? It's the prefect example to understand that players should be targeted on their skillsets, instead of being close-minded and afraid because of the level of competition they play in. American high-schools are a pretty much the shittiest level of competition NBA players can get drafted from, but you would have been retarded not to take Lebron James despite of it.

All I'm saying is, focus on the player and his strengths and weaknesses and how would those translate and/or develop in the NBA. Not taking a guy because of the level of competition he plays in is pretty much the worst mistake a GM could make.

[Chinook]

So you meant the D-league had a lot of the 700/1000 top players in the World, not the NCAA?

Yes, and just to clarify, that's what I actually said in my post. I think you thought I said most college teams were better, when I specifically said the opposite. I do think the NCAA has a lot of top-1000 players in the world, and if you took them and put them into 30 teams, it'd be a more talented league than many other domestic teams, but good domestic leagues and especially the Euroleague would be ahead.

[Chinook]

Why would Giannis be a lazy example?

Because he's the exception to so many rules that citing him doesn't disprove anything but absolute statements.


It's the prefect example to understand that players should be targeted on their skillsets, instead of being close-minded and afraid because of the level of competition they play in.

Nah, what it is is a bad attempt to negate the idea that demonstrated skill-sets are often a function of competition level. Literally no one said the level of competition was a reason not to draft him, so you're arguing against no one by citing Giannis.


American high-schools are a pretty much the shittiest level of competition NBA players can get drafted from, but you would have been retarded not to take Lebron James despite of it.

Once one-and-done stops being a thing, high schools will become a much better drafting ground. Even now guys like Bazley and the Makers are showing it's not the worst thing in the world, but back when James was drafted, it was definitely a better pool than Europe or anywhere else in the world outside the NCAA.

You're missing the point though. James was drafted because he projected to translate. He was safe, just like Tim was. Plenty of dominant high-school players don't project well, even though they often have good floor games and what not, and they don't get drafted high. That's really true now, but it was true back then too.


All I'm saying is, focus on the player and his strengths and weaknesses and how would those translate and/or develop in the NBA.

You're not doing that, though. You're specifically trying to not do that and instead arguing that the chances they magically do are worth picking him. You're trying to dismiss the effect of lesser competition while pinning on others the idea that they think it's the most important thing. Truth is there's a relationship between the two concepts, and folks like you should consider that relationship when talking about Poke's developmental curve.

[DAF86]

In fact, I would argue that, given the history of these players that gather attention from very low level places of play, the smart thing would be to pay even more attention to them. Players like Kobe, Garnett and Giannis probably weren't selected number 1 overall because of people's skepticism about their level of competition. If folks would have cared more about their actual skill levels, instead of focusing on their competition, they would have selected the best player in the draft.

Not too long ago I was arguing with Spurtacular about the relative importance of college for young promising players. I checked the list of all the players that made it from high school straight to the NBA, and the vast majority had a long career in the league. Meaning that, despite their poor level of competition, they were still able to make it in the league because of the talent that made them stand out in the first place.

[Chinook]

In fact, I would argue that, given the history of these players that gather attention from very low level places of play, the smart thing would be to pay even more attention to them. Players like Kobe, Garnett and Giannis probably weren't selected number 1 overall because of people's skepticism about their level of competition. If folks would have cared more about their actual skill levels, instead of focusing on their competition, they would have selected the best player in the draft

This is speculation. Especially in Giannis' case, people just didn't really know much about him. He'd've probably been a top-10 pick had he been on teams' radars more. The push then was to find the next Durant, so long athletic forwards from all over the world had their stocks really high.

For KG, he was in a pool of PFs who all had good NBA careers. Garnett ended up being the best of them, but the three guys before him were legit All-Stars in their primes. The same thing happened with Kobe, though not to the same concentration of elite players.

This is a lot of major hindsight. Teams passed over Leonard for some reason too. Doesn't mean it's some systematic flaw that has to be correct.

[Spurtacular]

In fact, I would argue that, given the history of these players that gather attention from very low level places of play, the smart thing would be to pay even more attention to them. Players like Kobe, Garnett and Giannis probably weren't selected number 1 overall because of people's skepticism about their level of competition. If folks would have cared more about their actual skill levels, instead of focusing on their competition, they would have selected the best player in the draft.

Not too long ago I was arguing with Spurtacular (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49615) about the relative importance of college for young promising players. I checked the list of all the players that made it from high school straight to the NBA, and the vast majority had a long career in the league. Meaning that, despite their poor level of competition, they were still able to make it in the league because of the talent that made them stand out in the first place.

Again, you're talking about blue chips. I'm talking aggregate. Multiple years of lower level basketball is best for most players.

As for Kobe, that's always been a curious case to me. There was some sort underground dealing going on or something. It was written in stone that he had to go to the Lakers.

[DAF86]

Because he's the exception to so many rules that citing him doesn't disprove anything but absolute statements.

How many other players drafted from the second division Greek league do you know? :lol


Nah, what it is is a bad attempt to negate the idea that demonstrated skill-sets are often a function of competition level. Literally no one said the level of competition was a reason not to draft him, so you're arguing against no one by citing Giannis.

You are clearly showing skepticism regarding Poku's actual level of play because of his level of competition. What better way to counter that idea than by citing the other player from the Greek second division that gathered this type of attention from NBA scouts?


Once one-and-done stops being a thing, high schools will become a much better drafting ground. Even now guys like Bazley and the Makers are showing it's not the worst thing in the world, but back when James was drafted, it was definitely a better pool than Europe or anywhere else in the world outside the NCAA.

Sorry, but this is just pure US self-centered ignorance at its finest. The idea of teams composed of high-school kids being more competitive than the best professionals in Europe is just mind numbing laughable.


You're missing the point though. James was drafted because he projected to translate. He was safe, just like Tim was. Plenty of dominant high-school players don't project well, even though they often have good floor games and what not, and they don't get drafted high. That's really true now, but it was true back then too.


Then talk about how you think Poku's game doesn't seem to be projected to translate, not the level of competition, tbh.


You're not doing that, though. You're specifically trying to not do that and instead arguing that the chances they magically do are worth picking him. You're trying to dismiss the effect of lesser competition while pinning on others the idea that they think it's the most important thing. Truth is there's a relationship between the two concepts, and folks like you should consider that relationship when talking about Poke's developmental curve.

No, I'm not. You are the one over-fixating about the competition instead of analyzing each skillset on its own.

If prime Shaq was put on the A2 right now, he wouldn't suddenly start bringing the ball up the court, crossing people over and start making step back 3's. He would dominate but in the same way he dominated the NBA, most likely with more pedestrian stats since NBA basketball tends to inflate stats compared to Europe.

Just this morning I saw a story on youtube about Kawhi playing in high-school, he was doing exactly the same things and moves he does right now but against high-school kids. A Chinook somewhere would have probably said "yeah, well, but let's see if he can translate that to the NBA". Yeah, no shit, that's what you have to see with everybody. :lol

Seriously, I don't even know why this is an argument. Are you saying that Poku's game won't translate because he plays against shitty competition, or that we have to see if his game translates? If it's the latter then that's true for every drafted player, no matter where they come from. A2, Euroleague, NCAA, high school. Everybody has to prove themselves and no previous competition guarantees anything, in fact, the players drafted from the lower competitions (high school and Europe's lesser leagues) have a higher degree of success than the players drafted from the more conventional places (NCAA and Europe's top leagues), you know why? Because the players that draw the attention of NBA scouts in the lower level leagues do it so because they are special, they are out of the norm. And those type of players will succeed more often than not.

[BackHome]

Corona madness has set in on Spurs Talk :nerd

[Chinook]

How many other players drafted from the second division Greek league do you know? :lol

I can't imagine very many. That's why it's weird that you're laughing.


You are clearly showing skepticism regarding Poku's actual level of play because of his level of competition. What better way to counter that idea than by citing the other player from the Greek second division that gathered this type of attention from NBA scouts?

First, Giannis DIDN'T gather this type of attention. His agent was literally sending out tapes of his play to NBA scouts hoping someone would notice him. The truth is that this is not a way to counter the skepticism. It's warranted, and you just have to hope it's not true. You can't dismiss it, and unless you factor it into what you're seeing, you're not evaluating him fairly.


Sorry, but this is just pure US self-centered ignorance at its finest. The idea of teams composed of high-school kids being more competitive than the best professionals in Europe is just mind numbing laughable.

I didn't say that. I said it was a better pool for evaluating NBA talent. That's for a lot of reasons, including ease of access and the relationships teams had built with high-school clubs. You're showing how new you are to scouting by ignoring the history of its development in the NBA. Stop trying to score anti-US points; it's boring.


Then talk about how you think Poku's game doesn't seem to be projected to translate, not the level of competition, tbh.

No. The level of competition matters. You don't seem to get that. No one is saying it's the most important thing. You are saying it's irrelevant, and that's just objectively wrong.


No, I'm not. You are the one over-fixating about the competition instead of analyzing each skillset on its own.

No matter how many times you try to say I'm fixating on level of competition, it won't be true. It just makes it seem like you aren't reading what I'm saying and instead turtling into "I know what I see."


If prime Shaq was put on the A2 right now, he wouldn't suddenly start bringing the ball up the court, crossing people over and start making step back 3's. He would dominate but in the same way he dominated the NBA, most likely with more pedestrian stats since NBA basketball tends to inflate stats compared to Europe.

He'd definitely be the guy running their offense. He wouldn't bring the ball up the court because that's not an essential skill. And he would probably just post up because he doesn't need to attack the defense from the high post. But would he have numerous coast-to-coast moments when he did dribble up the court and dunk it? Of course he would.


Just this morning I saw a story on youtube about Kawhi playing in high-school, he was doing exactly the same things and moves he does right now but against high-school kids. A Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) somewhere would have probably said "yeah, well, but let's see if he can translate that to the NBA". Yeah, no shit, that's what you have to see with everybody. :lol

Do you realize how bad this looks for your point? He wasn't even doing the stuff he does in the NBA now in the first years he was in the NBA or in college. It's like you don't even remember his developmental curve at all.


Seriously, I don't even know why this is an argument. Are you saying that Poku's game won't translate because he plays against shitty competition, or that we have to see if his game translates? If it's the latter then that's true for every drafted player, no matter where they come from. A2, Euroleague, NCAA, high school. Everybody has to prove themselves and no previous competition guarantees anything, in fact, the players drafted from the lower competitions (high school and Europe's lesser leagues) have a higher degree of success than the players drafted from the more conventional places (NCAA and Europe's top leagues)?

The point is that the NBA is so good that basically very few skills translate. You're looking at him in some generalist/superstar light without considering what he can already do at the NBA level. Because there will be guys who can dribble better than him, pass better than him, shoot better than him. There'll be guys who can rebound better and defend better. Those guys might not be able to do everything better than him, but they don't have to, because the NBA is about specialists more than generalists. That's why positional striation exists. So the question isn't "Will his game translate". It's "What can he do at an NBA level, and what can he be projected to do at an NBA level as he goes through his curve."


you know why? Because the players that draw the attention of NBA scouts in the lower level leagues do it so because they are special, they are out of the norm. And those type of players will succeed more often than not.

Is that actually true? I think it depends on how you cut the data.

[DAF86]

I can't imagine very many. That's why it's weird that you're laughing.

If there aren't many, then how can Giannis be the "exception to many rules"? Do you even keep up with what you say?


First, Giannis DIDN'T gather this type of attention. His agent was literally sending out tapes of his play to NBA scouts hoping someone would notice him. The truth is that this is not a way to counter the skepticism. It's warranted, and you just have to hope it's not true. You can't dismiss it, and unless you factor it into what you're seeing, you're not evaluating him fairly.

However it was that he gathered the attention, he did it. That's why he was drafted in the middle of the first draft despite coming from an unkown league.


I didn't say that. I said it was a better pool for evaluating NBA talent. That's for a lot of reasons, including ease of access and the relationships teams had built with high-school clubs. You're showing how new you are to scouting by ignoring the history of its development in the NBA. Stop trying to score anti-US points; it's boring.

This whole argument started because you are questioning Poku's level of competition. I brought Lebron and high school to make you realize that his level of competition also sucked. So, now, you turning the argument from "level of competition" to "talent pool" is irrelevant.


No. The level of competition matters. You don't seem to get that. No one is saying it's the most important thing. You are saying it's irrelevant, and that's just objectively wrong.

It's pretty irrelevant, given the fact that history shows that prospects from the lower levels of competition have had a much greater level of success in the NBA than prospects from higher levels of competition. If anything, the fact that Poku gathers this type of attention despite playing in such a poor league should make GMs even more confident about his chances of making it at the NBA level.


No matter how many times you try to say I'm fixating on level of competition, it won't be true. It just makes it seem like you aren't reading what I'm saying and instead turtling into "I know what I see."

Well, you brought it up, and here we are, a day later, still discussing it, despite years and years of evidence proving that the level of competition actually works the other way around, not because the level of competition itself, but because the players that make themselves stand out on these lower leagues are usually pretty special talents.


He'd definitely be the guy running their offense. He wouldn't bring the ball up the court because that's not an essential skill. And he would probably just post up because he doesn't need to attack the defense from the high post. But would he have numerous coast-to-coast moments when he did dribble up the court and dunk it? Of course he would.

Why? :lol Do you think playing against lesser competition increases your skill level? It doesn't work that way son. If you can't dribble, you can't dribble. Shaq wouldn't suddenly start being an 80% FT shooter on the Greek league. Also, the big difference between NBA players and the rest of the World comes on offense, not in defense. Sure, NBA players run faster and jump hugher on average but in a vacuum the difference isn't that big on that side of the floor. Any 5'11" pesky European guard would be able to steal or make Shaq pick up his dribble if he tries to do something he isn't cut out for doing like dribbling it up the court going coast to coast.

On a related note, did you know that offense comes a lot easier in the NBA than in Europe? Every FIBA born player knows this fact. Even non-NBA players like Laprovittola are on record saying that the extra space and more offense oriented rules makes for the NBA a much easier league to attack the basket and offense in general than FIBA leagues. That's why FIBA players usually tend to struggle more with defense than offense when getting to the NBA.


Do you realize how bad this looks for your point? He wasn't even doing the stuff he does in the NBA now in the first years he was in the NBA or in college. It's like you don't even remember his developmental curve at all.

OXS1_wZqzFc

Go ahead son, lose all credibility and tell me these moves aren't exactly the same ones he pulls today in the NBA.


The point is that the NBA is so good that basically very few skills translate. You're looking at him in some generalist/superstar light without considering what he can already do at the NBA level. Because there will be guys who can dribble better than him, pass better than him, shoot better than him. There'll be guys who can rebound better and defend better. Those guys might not be able to do everything better than him, but they don't have to, because the NBA is about specialists more than generalists. That's why positional striation exists. So the question isn't "Will his game translate". It's "What can he do at an NBA level, and what can he be projected to do at an NBA level as he goes through his curve."

It's not about what a player does on the lower levels but how he does it. For example, Sadidiq Bey and Devin Vassell are guys that put the ball on the floor and try to playmake a bit right now, but looking at their handles anyone with a bit of understanding knows that their handles and dribbling skills aren't enough to translate what they are doing to the next level. That's why everybody has them as 3 and D players. Saddiq Bey will never be a 20+ ppg primary offensive option on the NBA like he is in NCAA. And this is something any trained pair of eyes can realize just by watching him dribble the ball alone on a basketball court. His level of competition doesn't matter. Pokusevski, on the other hand, is a natural with the ball in his hands and, no, the level of competition isn't the reason why he can dribble the ball behind his back and between his legs on a tigh space and then laser a no-look pass on the money cross court. He can do that because he has was born with the talent to do that.


Is that actually true? I think it depends on how you cut the data.

Just take all the players that were drafted straight from high school and from Europe's second division leagues and check how many managed to be at least rotation players with extended careers on the NBA.

[Dejounte]

Don't attack me, I'm just sharing what's the latest on my feed.

https://twitter.com/NBADraftWass/status/1299406257200168961?s=19

[exstatic]

Don't attack me, I'm just sharing what's the latest on my feed.

https://twitter.com/NBADraftWass/status/1299406257200168961?s=19

Yeah, the NBADraft.net guy.

Scouts questioned Jokićs desire. Scouts questioned Samanics desire.

Rebounding IS desire. A skinny assed 7 foot, 18 YO put up good rebounding numbers in a league playing against bulkier bigger grown men.

And I’m sure you’re just trying to keep us all informed from your feed...

[lefty]

Don't attack me, I'm just sharing what's the latest on my feed.

https://twitter.com/NBADraftWass/status/1299406257200168961?s=19
Let'S get him imo

[Dejounte]

Yeah, the NBADraft.net guy.

Scouts questioned Jokićs desire. Scouts questioned Samanics desire.

Rebounding IS desire. A skinny assed 7 foot, 18 YO put up good rebounding numbers in a league playing against bulkier bigger grown men.

And I’m sure you’re just trying to keep us all informed from your feed...

I don't fucking have anything against Poku. It's irritating about people like you that you can't accept criticism about players whose balls are in your mouth. Jesus. I hate when people turn it against others because their just blind to their own POV. Take off that dog cone, man.

[exstatic]

I don't fucking have anything against Poku. It's irritating about people like you that you can't accept criticism about players whose balls are in your mouth. Jesus. I hate when people turn it against others because their just blind to their own POV. Take off that dog cone, man.

Devin Vassell

[Dejounte]

Devin Vassell

Yeah? I'm the one throwing criticism at Devin so your post makes no sense just like your logic about prospects.

[exstatic]

And you’re throwing criticism at Poku, and any other damn player who isn’t precious enough for you.

[Dejounte]

And you’re throwing criticism at Poku, and any other damn player who isn’t precious enough for you.

Yes, because idiots like you like to crown prospects as the next big thing. Even I have my own criticism towards Precious, Nesmith, and all the other players I like because I have the ability to temper my expectations. You don't. That's the difference. Hell, at one point I was all-in on Isaiah Stewart but I knew when to step back.

[exstatic]

We’re coming at this from two different angles, too. You’re trying to figure out who you want for the Spurs to pick. I’m trying to figure out who they want to pick. Considering the outrage here after the Samanic pick last year, most of fandom struggles with what I’m attempting.

[Sugus]

We’re coming at this from two different angles, too. You’re trying to figure out who you want for the Spurs to pick. I’m trying to figure out who they want to pick. Considering the outrage here after the Samanic pick last year, most of fandom struggles with what I’m attempting.

Honest question, why then would you think the Spurs are so high (since you're so high on him) on Pokusevski? There have been no reports that they're interested in him, Spurs haven't scouted him as far as we know (like they did and openly admitted to doing with Samanic and other prospects), they've already taken on a project PF in last years' draft which, while obviously not completely throwing out the possibility, does make it unlikely that they'd select yet another project PF; and lastly, they probably see taking Poku at #11 as a reach, and will be trying to get a more "safe" prospect with their highest pick in years. This isn't like swinging for the fences with a #19 or #29 pick, where you can live with failure since the stakes weren't so high.

To me, and from what I've read and heard so far, there's no indicators whatsoever that the Spurs are particularly interested in Poku, beyond the fact that he's European and Spurs are clichéd as always picking Euros over American prospects. So, unless you have certain information I haven't read, you're looking like you're trying to play off your interest in Poku, as the Spurs' interest in Poku... Which is weird. And I'm not saying this because I want them to pick other prospects (if I had to say, even though I like Precious, I think they're most likely to take PatWill, tbh).

[exstatic]

Honest question, why then would you think the Spurs are so high (since you're so high on him) on Pokusevski? There have been no reports that they're interested in him, Spurs haven't scouted him as far as we know (like they did and openly admitted to doing with Samanic and other prospects), they've already taken on a project PF in last years' draft which, while obviously not completely throwing out the possibility, does make it unlikely that they'd select yet another project PF; and lastly, they probably see taking Poku at #11 as a reach, and will be trying to get a more "safe" prospect with their highest pick in years. This isn't like swinging for the fences with a #19 or #29 pick, where you can live with failure since the stakes weren't so high.

To me, and from what I've read and heard so far, there's no indicators whatsoever that the Spurs are particularly interested in Poku, beyond the fact that he's European and Spurs are clichéd as always picking Euros over American prospects. So, unless you have certain information I haven't read, you're looking like you're trying to play off your interest in Poku, as the Spurs' interest in Poku... Which is weird. And I'm not saying this because I want them to pick other prospects (if I had to say, even though I like Precious, I think they're most likely to take PatWill, tbh).

The age of the last 5 Spurs first rounders: 19, almost 23, 19, 19, 19. They’re drafting younger, for the most part. He fits that. They have a history of drafting Euros, including a young skilled big man with possible motor issues, from a low level European league last year. He fits that.

As for scouting him, the world is a different place this year than last. The Balkan Peninsula was a hot zone, much like our own country. Americans haven’t even been allowed into Europe for months. They could also have just been giving him the Kawhi treatment. They never interviewed or worked him out.

They also drafted 4 similar players between 6’4” and 6’6” in the first round in consecutive years. Drafting another tall Euro with perimeter skills in consecutive drafts wouldn’t even be a mild surprise for me.

I’ve put some thought into this.

[DAF86]

Don't attack me, I'm just sharing what's the latest on my feed.

https://twitter.com/NBADraftWass/status/1299406257200168961?s=19

"Scouts question desire. Basically just uses size/mobility/DESIRE to hunt for blocks to make plays around the basket"

:lol:lol:lol

Didn't want to also mark the contradiction between "flat footed" and "mobility" 'cause it would take away the fun from the most obvious literal contradiction, tbh. :lol

[Dejounte]

"Scouts question desire. Basically just uses size/mobility/DESIRE to hunt for blocks to make plays around the basket"

:lol:lol:lol

Didn't want to also mark the contradiction between "flat footed" and "mobility" 'cause it would take away the fun from the most obvious literal contradiction, tbh. :lol

I'm with you. On the second point, I think he's saying he's flat footed on the perimeter but around the basket he has mobility? Maybe someone should ask him about the first?

[Sugus]

The age of the last 5 Spurs first rounders: 19, almost 23, 19, 19, 19. They’re drafting younger, for the most part. He fits that. They have a history of drafting Euros, including a young skilled big man with possible motor issues, from a low level European league last year. He fits that.

As for scouting him, the world is a different place this year than last. The Balkan Peninsula was a hot zone, much like our own country. Americans haven’t even been allowed into Europe for months. They could also have just been giving him the Kawhi treatment. They never interviewed or worked him out.

They also drafted 4 similar players between 6’4” and 6’6” in the first round in consecutive years. Drafting another tall Euro with perimeter skills in consecutive drafts wouldn’t even be a mild surprise for me.

I’ve put some thought into this.

Uh, PatWill is 19 as well, just to name an example - so why would age be a critical factor for Poku over other prospects? Not to mention they broke the mold with drafting White, who was much older, which I wouldn't gloss over - though I do agree they might be looking for prospects on the younger side. The drafting Euros is lazy, they've drafted European players in the past just as much as they've drafted American ones, they literally split 1/1 last year with Luka and Keldon and selected two American players in DJ and White in previous drafts. Again, no certain indicators for Poku specifically there, or any Euro for that matter. As for the scouting, I agree it's been obviously difficult, but then again, there hasn't been a single mention of Poku's name from anyone even close to the Spurs org - and of course you'll say they like to "keep it down", and I agree, but again there's no clear indicators in favor of Poku there.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to tear down Poku or anything, as a matter of fact I see things in him that are promising enough that if the Spurs pick him, I'd trust them to maximize his talents. But I still fail to see any non-biased indicators that the Spurs might pick him over other prospects; just like you could've made that age argument two seasons ago and be dead wrong when the Spurs drafted White, I don't really think they care about a prospect's age or place of origin as much if they truly think he's the BPA. At least not to the point where I'd try to draw future conclusions because of it.

[exstatic]

Uh, PatWill is 19 as well, just to name an example - so why would age be a critical factor for Poku over other prospects? Not to mention they broke the mold with drafting White, who was much older, which I wouldn't gloss over - though I do agree they might be looking for prospects on the younger side. The drafting Euros is lazy, they've drafted European players in the past just as much as they've drafted American ones, they literally split 1/1 last year with Luka and Keldon and selected two American players in DJ and White in previous drafts. Again, no certain indicators for Poku specifically there, or any Euro for that matter. As for the scouting, I agree it's been obviously difficult, but then again, there hasn't been a single mention of Poku's name from anyone even close to the Spurs org - and of course you'll say they like to "keep it down", and I agree, but again there's no clear indicators in favor of Poku there.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to tear down Poku or anything, as a matter of fact I see things in him that are promising enough that if the Spurs pick him, I'd trust them to maximize his talents. But I still fail to see any non-biased indicators that the Spurs might pick him over other prospects; just like you could've made that age argument two seasons ago and be dead wrong when the Spurs drafted White, I don't really think they care about a prospect's age or place of origin as much if they truly think he's the BPA. At least not to the point where I'd try to draw future conclusions because of it.

Did you even read my post? When I listed the ages of the last 5 first rounders, White was the 23. He was actually 22, but turned 23 days later, so I rounded it up, No attempt was made to gloss over his age when picked, and in fact his inclusion kind of stands out like a sore thumb.

Poku fits in two separate groups, youth, and European. That’s called convergence, and it’s a signpost.

You can disagree. It’s your right. I’m just saying that this is the guy that I think the Spurs will pick if he’s on the board. That’s my call. Agree, disagree, whatever. Obviously, I’m not going to convince you, nor you me. Make your own call. I’d be interested to see who you think the Spurs will pick. Not who you want, but try to figure out who will be on the board, and who RC is likely to pick.

[DAF86]

OK, since this guy seems to be a very polarizing figure I'm gonna provide my in depth scouting report of Pokusevski, after having seen every full game of his I could find in youtube.

PERSONAL INFO AND MEASUREMENTS

Name: Aleksej Pokusevski
Age: 18 years (Born on December 26, 2001 - barely elegible for the draft by a few days)
Height: 7'0'' (although there are rumours that he has already grown 1 or 2 more inches)
Weight: 201 lbs (also rumours that this has increased too)
Wingspan: 7'3''
Standing reach: 9'1''

STATS

Per game: 11 ppg - 8 rpg - 3 apg - 2 bpg - 1.3 spg - 40 FG% - 32 3PT% - 78 FT% - 23 mpg
Per 36 minutes: 17 ppg - 12 rbpg - 5 apg - 3 bpg - 2 spg
Advanced: 105.4 ORtg - 84.4 DRtg - 25 PER

STRENGHTS (in descending order)

1) Blocking: This is honestly the aspect of his game that surprised me the most. He looked like a prime Ibaka out there in the Greek second division league. Whenever he was in vacinity he either blocked the shot or altered it, very rarely did he get scored on. He gets blocks in all the varietes: chasing down a guy from behind, coming from the weak side, waiting as a rim protector in the paint, closing out shooters on the perimeter and, despite his lack of strenght, even when defending one on one on a guy that is trying to post him up. Besides his obvious advantage in length, Pokusevski displays deceptive leaping ability (specially from a standing still position) and just great position and feel for when going up for a block.

2) Ball handling and coordination: Pokusevski isn't just one of those folks that displays "good ballhandling skills for a bigman" ala Anthony Davis or Nikola Jokic. No, he displays good ball handling skills, period. He looks like a 7 foot Kyrie Irving out there, doing behind the back and between the legs dribbles effortlessly. Dude has the ball on a string.

3) Passing and vision: To go along with his ball handling abilities, Pokusevski has above average passing skills and court vision. He averaged 5 apg per 36 minutes on FIBA, where the assist keeping numbers are a lot less friendly than in the NBA. His assist to turnover ratio was 1.6 (again, would have been better with NBA style assist stat tracking). Very inventive and unafraid of making mistakes, both in the open field and in pick and roll situations.

4) Rebounding: Same as with blocking, his length and deceptive leaping ability allow him to get rebounds at a great rate. Will win contested rebounds by volleyballing the basketball among enemies' hands. Inconsistent boxing out.

5) Stealing: Length and feel for the game give him above average stealing skills. Agressive double teaming the ball carrier and takes gambles on passing lanes which, when it doesn't work, it leaves the team on a bad defensive postion.

The combination of blocking, rebounding and stealing skills earned him all-defensive team honours from the website Eurobasket.com.

6) Basketball IQ: Poku is definitely a thinker of the game. He's very vocal too. Despite being only 18 years old, and by far the youngest player on the squad, he was constantly seen directing traffic both on offense and defense.

WEAKNESSES (from worst to not so much)

1) Strength: Without a doubt, Pokusevski main concern. Still very young and will undoubtebly put on some more mass in a couple of years, but will it be enough to hang on the NBA? Not exactly the biggest of frames to fill up. Has narrow shoulders.

2) Finishing: For such a talented player, he misses an alarming amount of shots near the rim. Some of them are explained because of the lack of strength previously mentioned, but other times he just lacks touch.

3) One on one defense: On the tighter, less talented courts of the Green A2 league this didn't prove to be a major issue for Pokusevski, but on the NBA he will be seen as an easy prey both on the block with his lack of strength, and on the perimeter because, even though he has good overall mobility and coordination, he just doesn't put enough effort on bending those knees and moving laterally to stay with his man. Many times he would let the offensive player go past him so that he can then strip the ball from behind or block it at the rim. He won't be able to get away with that on the NBA.

4) Unforced errors: Make no mistake about it, Pop would lose years of his life dealing with some of the mistakes Pokusevski would make if he ever got to coach him. For a guy that displays such high basketball IQ most of the time, he commits quite his fair share of boneheaded plays. His two most common infractions: turning the ball over by looking for the flashy pass instead of the efficient one, and getting lost on defense trying to go for the home run play. Luckily these are easy fixes that will come with maturity.

5) FT rate: Dude just doesn't go enough to the line. Needs to learn how to use his body better when attacking the basket.

QUESTION MARKS/NEUTRAL ASPECTS

Shooting: Pokusevski displays a good enough form on his shot (aside from a weird leg movement he does from time to time) but still hasn't proved he can shoot at a high %. Despite shooting only 32% from three, he shoots a high volume on these (5 threes per game and 7 threes per 36 minutes. That's over half of his field goal attempts). Quick release. Will take threes from spot ups, off the dribble and even in catch and shoot situations coming off screens. This is an encouraging sign that paired with his already good FT shooting (78%) projects him as an average to above average shooter at the NBA level (his projected NBA 3pt% is 37%).

As a side note, not a very good off balance shooter. It seemed like everytime he was forced to take and off balance jumper he would front iron it in an ugly way.

Athleticism: Pretty much an average to slightly above athlete. Not overly fast, but not slow by any means. As already mentioned, deceptive leaping ability. Good coordination and mobility although not always makes the best use of them. And the aforementioned lack of strength.

Body language: Dude displays a weird body language sometimes. One play he's all over the court creating havoc and the next he looks like he's barely even trying. Despite playing with great energy most of the time, he can be often seen with his hands on his knees and his head at legs level searching for air. Might need to work on conditioning.

SO, SHOULD THE SPURS DRAFT THIS GUY?

It all depends on what you are looking for. If you are looking for a guy that can start contributing right away and who is less of a risk at never stepping foot on an NBA court, then you might be better off looking elswhere. However if you prefer to go for the home run and a shot at drafting your franchise player for the next 15 years, then Pokusevski is definitely your guy. I would even argue that his ceiling is higher than the top prospects in the draft. If the Spurs were drafting in the top 4, then the risk of drafting Poku might be too much, but at 11 I feel like they are at the perfect spot for taking a flyer on possibly the most talented player in the entire draft.

[Dejounte]

DAF86

"Height: 7'0'' (although there are rumours that he has already grown 1 or 2 more feet)"

LMFAO that's fucking tall

[DAF86]

DAF86

"Height: 7'0'' (although there are rumours that he has already grown 1 or 2 more feet)"

LMFAO that's fucking tall

lol I obviously tried to mean inches.

[Sugus]

Did you even read my post? When I listed the ages of the last 5 first rounders, White was the 23. He was actually 22, but turned 23 days later, so I rounded it up, No attempt was made to gloss over his age when picked, and in fact his inclusion kind of stands out like a sore thumb.

Poku fits in two separate groups, youth, and European. That’s called convergence, and it’s a signpost.

You can disagree. It’s your right. I’m just saying that this is the guy that I think the Spurs will pick if he’s on the board. That’s my call. Agree, disagree, whatever. Obviously, I’m not going to convince you, nor you me. Make your own call. I’d be interested to see who you think the Spurs will pick. Not who you want, but try to figure out who will be on the board, and who RC is likely to pick.

Yeah, of course I realized White was the 23, that's exactly why I said that taking things like prospects' ages and trying to predict future picks on that alone isn't very reliable, since White is an obvious contradiction to the "young, Euro" mold that you think the Spurs will abide to; and again, Dejounte, Lonnie, Keldon all fall out of the Euro mold, which I personally think is overplayed anyways and one of the remnants of the Big 3 era.

Agree to disagree it will be, that's fine. In my personal opinion, and even though I'm not super high on him, I see the Spurs picking PatWill - he's projected to be available, he's young, he's raw and looks like he could be molded into a solid player. High character, "Spurs-y" attitude from the stuff I've seen on him, no off-court drama, high IQ player. That's a lot of "convergence" like you called it. The other prospect I could see the Spurs taking is Hayes, for many of the same reasons, but I don't think he'll be available. And as for who I'd personally want them to take, that's Achiuwa, but for some reason I don't see the FO picking him even though he's projected to go at most #12-14 by most sites I've seen so far.

[Sugus]

OK, since this guy seems to be a very polarizing figure I'm gonna provide my in depth scouting report of Pokusevski, after having seeing every full game of his I could find in youtube.

(...)

Thanks for the high quality content. I like Poku in the "go big or go home" sense of a pick, even though I personally wouldn't select him for the Spurs this year.

[Chinook]

"Scouts question desire. Basically just uses size/mobility/DESIRE to hunt for blocks to make plays around the basket"

:lol:lol:lol

Didn't want to also mark the contradiction between "flat footed" and "mobility" 'cause it would take away the fun from the most obvious literal contradiction, tbh. :lol

Basically says that he stat-hunts for blocks (which you apparently agree with if you say he looks like Ibaka, who was one of the most empty-calorie defensive bigs from the last decade). The "scouts" are saying the hard work of staying with a man on the perimeter is something he's not interested in. That's actually not that bad. If he CAN defend on perimeter but just has motivation issues, that can be fixed. If he lacks mobility and can't stay with folks away from the basket, then that wouldn't be fixable at all.

[DAF86]

Basically says that he stat-hunts for blocks (which you apparently agree with if you say he looks like Ibaka, who was one of the most empty-calorie defensive bigs from the last decade). The "scouts" are saying the hard work of staying with a man on the perimeter is something he's not interested in. That's actually not that bad. If he CAN defend on perimeter but just has motivation issues, that can be fixed. If he lacks mobility and can't stay with folks away from the basket, then that wouldn't be fixable at all.

Well, damn, Ibaka surely didn't feel like an empty calories defensive presence on all those playoffs series vs the Spurs. :lol

Nor is that what his defensive metrics or on/off numbers indicate, tbh.

[Chinook]

It's not about what a player does on the lower levels but how he does it.



Just take all the players that were drafted straight from high school and from Europe's second division leagues and check how many managed to be at least rotation players with extended careers on the NBA.

I think you want to be really esoteric about evaluations in an attempt to ward away opposition. I don't mean that to be particularly offensive. There are definitely aspects to scouting that are about the eye-test, and that's something I pretty much don't really do when looking at prospects (I'll do it for actual Spurs when they're on the team, but not to project). That's why I'm not trying to contradict what you're actually saying about Poke. You're taking the time to do that, and I think that's valuable to the board and a commendable skill to want to hone. But that doesn't mean that I am going to agree with what you're saying about how evaluations are contextualized. Evaluation is supposed to be a holistic process, and you rely so much on "what you're seeing watching him play" to your own peril.

I actually have a point-by-point response in another tab. At this point, the amount of multi-quotes is beyond absurdity, but I can post it if you want. There are points I concede, points where I feel that I "got ya" and points where we just disagree (the usual). But we're like two months from the draft and there are other things to talk about.

To your second point, I think it's too vague. There could well have been players that came out of lower leagues and went undrafted or got drafted but never came over. That definitely happened with high-school players. But of the ones that were coveted (because players can come out without teams trying to draft them, and without lower-level domestic pro leagues, a lot of straight-from-HS players skipped college for the money), a good deal of them were at least rotation players who played for years.

[Chinook]

Well, damn, Ibaka surely didn't feel like an empty calories defensive presence on all those playoffs series vs the Spurs. :lol

Nor is that what his defensive metrics or on/off numbers indicate, tbh.

His shot-blocking was pretty empty calories. He went for blocks at the expense of rebounding and would block shots that had little chance of going in at hit them out of bounds. He wasn't he worst defender in the league, but he wasn't Tyson Chandler.

EDIT:

Here is a source for some "advanced stats": https://www.bball-index.com/2013-14-impact-metrics/

It only goes bad to 13/14, and you can argue that Ibaka has his best year before that.

[R. DeMurre]

That was a very good game from Pokusevski. The best thing is he didn't even need to have a good shooting night to be, by far, the best player on the court on both sides of the floor. By looking at his stats this seemed to be a pretty standard game from him. Not the best raw efficiency (although good in terms of effective FG) nor the most eye popping scoring display, but an all around dominant performance. Passing, playmaking, rebounding, rim protecting, stealing, he had everything. The cherry on top were that game icing rebound and clutch free throws.

The thing I'm most impressed with is his ability to be a game wrecker on defense despite not being a great one on one defender. The dude just has a knack for the ball. Whether it is on lose balls, rebounds, blocking or anticipating passing lanes, the ball always seems to find his hands. I'm gonna watch more games of him, but if they are like this one (which I believe they will), I'm more than sold on him being my guy.

The only thing I didn't like as much is how much he freelanced on defense. Some times he gambled too much or lost his man trying to come up with a big play. But then again, like I said on the previous paragraph, on this game at least it payed off more often than not.

I finally got around to watching the whole game, and a few things stood out to me. First, Poku is playing SG on offense this entire game. He's the secondary ball-handler, the best passer by far, and almost exclusively a perimeter player. He's also usually positioned to be the first guy back on D for misses, to stop fast breaks. In the second half especially, I think his court vision and passing are spectacular. I agree about the freelancing on D, but it's hard to know what instructions he's been given by that coach. Generally he seems to be guarding forwards on D and playing SG in the offense. Interesting stats: For that FIBA U18 tournament, he was third in scoring on his team, but lead the team in all of the following categories: Efficiency, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks. And honestly, most of the categories weren't even close.

http://www.fiba.basketball/europe/u18/2019/team/Serbia

[BackHome]

I watched a vid where they said he shot like 26% in U18 but raised it to 32% in Greek league so they said should be a good 3 pointer not great like Bertans but good. They also commented that they asked him if he would change something about himself he commented “No I work hard am not lazy and will not tolerate lazy people around me”.

One thing that I like about the potential players we can pick they are all smart and look like they will be very professional basketball players. Poku, Prescious, Williams.

[objective]

I'm getting more lukewarm on him.

Spurs couldn't figure out how to use a weapon like Bertans, and Bertans could actually make his shots. Sure, Poku passes incredibly at the lower levels, but Bertans was already a competent NBA passer for his position while in Europe. And he's an underrated passer still. But guys getting the ball in a player's hands to have the freedom to make plays is harder the bigger the player is. Would Poku get opportunities to be a playmaker even during his rookie deal?

I wonder how tall he'd be if he had a Keldon neck and not that Attack of the Clones he has now. Maybe right there with Bertans or close enough?

[BackHome]

So what is Poku buy out I heard it was if he is drafted top 20 the buy out is 1 million is this true?

[DAF86]

I'm getting more lukewarm on him.

Spurs couldn't figure out how to use a weapon like Bertans, and Bertans could actually make his shots. Sure, Poku passes incredibly at the lower levels, but Bertans was already a competent NBA passer for his position while in Europe. And he's an underrated passer still. But guys getting the ball in a player's hands to have the freedom to make plays is harder the bigger the player is. Would Poku get opportunities to be a playmaker even during his rookie deal?

I wonder how tall he'd be if he had a Keldon neck and not that Attack of the Clones he has now. Maybe right there with Bertans or close enough?

That's on Pop, tbh, not the player. Only thing he needed to do is give him minutes over the lesser players he preferred to play like Mills, Forbes, Belinelli and fucking Cunningham.

[exstatic]

I'm getting more lukewarm on him.

Spurs couldn't figure out how to use a weapon like Bertans, and Bertans could actually make his shots. Sure, Poku passes incredibly at the lower levels, but Bertans was already a competent NBA passer for his position while in Europe. And he's an underrated passer still. But guys getting the ball in a player's hands to have the freedom to make plays is harder the bigger the player is. Would Poku get opportunities to be a playmaker even during his rookie deal?

I wonder how tall he'd be if he had a Keldon neck and not that Attack of the Clones he has now. Maybe right there with Bertans or close enough?

As much as I like Davis, he isn’t Poku. Just because they’re both white and from Eastern Europe, doesn’t make them the same. Davis was not a shot blocker, competent rebounder, or high level playmaker. He had one real NBA skill, 3 point shooter.

[Trill Clinton]

I like this kid.

[Chinook]

As much as I like Davis, he isn’t Poku. Just because they’re both white and from Eastern Europe, doesn’t make them the same. Davis was not a shot blocker, competent rebounder, or high level playmaker. He had one real NBA skill, 3 point shooter.

But that was a real NBA skill. Bertans was one of the best shooters in the world, at a time when guys is height weren't known for being good shooters. That was always going to get him a shot. Had he been drafted by a team that wanted to bring him over right away, Davis would've been able to play spot minutes right away. Poke doesn't have any NBA-level skills as far as we know. Objective was pointing out that bigger players don't tend to get perimeter play-making roles, and that's not simply because coaches are dumb. Biomechanically speaking, guards tend to be better at that. Poke has to show he has a floor game comparable if not better than the average NBA guard to get the ball in those situations. For Bertans, nothing about his shooting depended on level of competition, especially back in 2011 when the NBA used a lot more spot-up shooting to provide spacing.

[DAF86]

But that was a real NBA skill. Bertans was one of the best shooters in the world, at a time when guys is height weren't known for being good shooters. That was always going to get him a shot. Had he been drafted by a team that wanted to bring him over right away, Davis would've been able to play spot minutes right away. Poke doesn't have any NBA-level skills as far as we know. Objective was pointing out that bigger players don't tend to get perimeter play-making roles, and that's not simply because coaches are dumb. Biomechanically speaking, guards tend to be better at that. Poke has to show he has a floor game comparable if not better than the average NBA guard to get the ball in those situations. For Bertans, nothing about his shooting depended on level of competition, especially back in 2011 when the NBA used a lot more spot-up shooting to provide spacing.

Well, but that argument only strengthnes the fact that the Poku/Bertans comparisson isn't a good one since they are different type of players.

If Pokusevski doesn't make it on the NBA it won't be because he is similar to Bertans, it will be because his game just didn't translate. Actually, showing reservation regarding Poku by comparing him to Bertans is kinda strange, since Bertans is a perfectly fine NBA player, tbh.

[Chinook]

Well, but that argument only strengthnes the fact that the Poku/Bertans comparisson isn't a good one since they are different type of players.

I never said they were the same. I am saying that saying Bertans was basically "only a shooter" while Poke is a more complete player mischaracterizes their NBA prospects. Being one of the best shooters in the world will get you on an NBA team. Happened for Bertans. Happened for Neal. Happened for Forbes. It'll happen for Nesmith too if his foot isn't Anderson'd. That's a really safe projection unless there's something biomechanically fucked up about the shot like with Jimmer. It shouldn't be thought of as an insult or easy to have one or two NBA skills, nor is it more desirable to have more skills but none as specialized. This isn't an anti-Poke thing. That's whatever at this point. It's just a rule for NBA players in general.

[DAF86]

Changing subjects, watching Poku developing in Austin would be pretty fun, tbh. Depending how the San Antonio season goes, we might actually get more excited about G-league games than NBA ones.

[Chinook]

Changing subjects, watching Poku developing on Austin would be pretty fun, tbh. Depending how the San Antonio season goes, we might actually get more excited about G-league games than NBA ones.

Maybe, but if the season goes in such a way that the big club isn't exciting, I think they'd bring Poke up. They would be drafting him because they see star potential, so I don't think they'd leave him in Austin during a lost season. He's not raw. He's just skinny, and d-leaguers aren't especially smaller than NBA players.

[BackHome]

Also if we do draft him his buy out is a cool 1 million so that pretty much means he would have to be a draft and stash?

[Dejounte]

Also if we do draft him his buy out is a cool 1 million so that pretty much means he would have to be a draft and stash?

I don't see why using part of the MLE would be an issue? Like we did paying for Metu's rookie contract.

[ZeusWillJudge]

This place slobbered all over Bismack Biyombo back in 2011, due to his "ridiculous upside". But it didn't think too much of guys like Vucevic, Bogdanivic, or Tobias Harris. There are going to be some impact guys in this draft, and at least a couple at the 11 pick. I would much rather see the Spurs pick a boring, solid contributor.

FYI - how many of you knew that he missed 3 months with a knee condition that a lot of scouts attribute directly to his skeleton frame?

[exstatic]

But that was a real NBA skill. Bertans was one of the best shooters in the world, at a time when guys is height weren't known for being good shooters. That was always going to get him a shot. Had he been drafted by a team that wanted to bring him over right away, Davis would've been able to play spot minutes right away. Poke doesn't have any NBA-level skills as far as we know. Objective was pointing out that bigger players don't tend to get perimeter play-making roles, and that's not simply because coaches are dumb. Biomechanically speaking, guards tend to be better at that. Poke has to show he has a floor game comparable if not better than the average NBA guard to get the ball in those situations. For Bertans, nothing about his shooting depended on level of competition, especially back in 2011 when the NBA used a lot more spot-up shooting to provide spacing.

And at some point, big men were NOT encouraged to shoot the long ball. That changed. Now, with players like Doncic, Freak, Simmons, and Jokic, teams and coaches are seeing the value of having someone taller than 6’4” make plays for others.

[DAF86]

Also if we do draft him his buy out is a cool 1 million so that pretty much means he would have to be a draft and stash?

Buyout will be 1.5 millions if Spurs draft him at 11 I believe. But the Spurs would only need to pay 750 K, the rest is on Poku.

[DAF86]

FYI - how many of you knew that he missed 3 months with a knee condition that a lot of scouts attribute directly to his skeleton frame?

Knee injury. "Condition" makes it seem like a Kawhi's chronical quad thing, tbh. But, yeah, that's definitely something to keep an eye on.

[Chinook]

Also if we do draft him his buy out is a cool 1 million so that pretty much means he would have to be a draft and stash?

Nah. First, there's a certain amount teams are allowed to pay for buyouts that doesn't count against the cap. That's already near a million. Then the rest would have to come from the player.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Knee injury. "Condition" makes it seem like a Kawhi's chronical quad thing, tbh. But, yeah, that's definitely something to keep an eye on.


I called it a condition because they were sort of evasive about it at the time it happened. They're calling it an injury, but I understand that there is talk that it was an overuse/stress injury - which, at his age would not be a good thing. Throw in his super-light frame, and it's at least a caution flag.

[pad300]

I called it a condition because they were sort of evasive about it at the time it happened. They're calling it an injury, but I understand that there is talk that it was an overuse/stress injury - which, at his age would not be a good thing. Throw in his super-light frame, and it's at least a caution flag.
Well, get our doctors to look at it. That's all you can really do to make a decision - they were right about Kwitter's quad afterall...

[BackHome]

Yeah that raises a flag same with Nesmith they both in my top 4 but if any injury concerns I would be more then happy with Precious or Smith.

[Dejounte]

Someone made an accurate comment about Poku's height. He's really more like 6'9" if you subtract the excess length on his neck (or I guess 6'11", if he has grown). Someone made a comment about Keldon like this before where the opposite was true. Keldon had a short neck, but seems taller than he is.

Not that it matters much, as it's his playmaking that is the appeal. If Keldon is a mustang, then Poku is a wild boar. His playstyle is just fucking crazy. We will see what the Spurs think in two months...

[DAF86]

Someone made an accurate comment about Poku's height. He's really more like 6'9" if you subtract the excess length on his neck (or I guess 6'11", if he has grown). Someone made a comment about Keldon like this before where the opposite was true. Keldon had a short neck.

Not that it matters much, as it's his playmaking that is the appeal. If Keldon is a mustang, then Poku is a wild boar. His playstyle is just fucking crazy. We will see what the Spurs think in two months...

It also doesn't matter because his wignspan is 7'3". The dude will get rebounds, blocks and steals with his hands, not with his shoulders, tbh. Him being shorter on the body is actually a good thing for his coordination/movement.

[DAF86]

And him having a long neck gives him a vision advantage. Long arms, shorter body, long neck is actually a pretty neat build for a basketball player now that I think about it, tbh. :lol

[Chinook]

Not that it matters, but you get rebounds and blocks with standing reach, not height or wingspan. This would suggest Poke will have a short SR than one would expect, just as Keldon has a longer one than his height or wingspan would suggest. Certainly that won't be the thing that determines Poke's fate in the NBA, but biomechanics aren't just one number.

[DAF86]

Not that it matters, but you get rebounds and blocks with standing reach, not height or wingspan. This would suggest Poke will have a short SR than one would expect, just as Keldon has a longer one than his height or wingspan would suggest. Certainly that won't be the thing that determines Poke's fate in the NBA, but biomechanics aren't just one number.

You are right, standing reach is still pretty dope at 9'1" though.

[exstatic]

Someone made an accurate comment about Poku's height. He's really more like 6'9" if you subtract the excess length on his neck (or I guess 6'11", if he has grown). Someone made a comment about Keldon like this before where the opposite was true. Keldon had a short neck, but seems taller than he is.

Not that it matters much, as it's his playmaking that is the appeal. If Keldon is a mustang, then Poku is a wild boar. His playstyle is just fucking crazy. We will see what the Spurs think in two months...

OK, you can’t just say that someone who has MEASURED at 7’0” is really 6’9” because you think his neck is too long. :lol

[Dejounte]

OK, you can’t just say that someone who has MEASURED at 7’0” is really 6’9” because you think his neck is too long. :lol

Not going to engage because you're failing to see my point here...

[exstatic]

Not going to engage because you're failing to see my point here...

Could you state it a little more clearly?

[DAF86]

You are right, standing reach is still pretty dope at 9'1" though.

Interesting fact about this standing reach thing is that the only non-bigmen to have entered a draft with a 9'1" standing reach or longer are Giannis, Durant and Ingram. Bodes well for Poku's aspirations at making it on this level, tbh.

[Chinook]

That's if Poke can make it as a perimeter player. Both KD and GA are legit unicorns, and Ingram... Well he tries.

[DAF86]

That's if Poke can make it as a perimeter player. Both KD and GA are legit unicorns, and Ingram... Well he tries.

I have little doubts about Poku's perimeter skills. Him being to handle the ball on the perimeter won't be an issue, tbh. For comparisson's sake, Poku's ballhandling skills are a lot better than Giannis' when he was drafted, and Giannis clearly didn't have a problem transitioning that to the NBA. Don't worry about that son. Poku's question marks come from his weight, body holding up and him proving he will be able to not be a one on one defensive liability.

[R. DeMurre]

Poku's last official standing reach measurement was longer than that of Poeltl or Anthony Davis... Non issue.

[Dejounte]

Could you state it a little more clearly?

No. Others here have already explained it. I'll give you a hint though: you don't play basketball using your head.

[Sugus]

No. Others here have already explained it. I'll give you a hint though: you don't play basketball using your head.

Watching the actual Dejounte play, I tend to agree with this :lol