The Left Case Against Supporting Joe Biden in the General Election

[Capt Bringdown]

The Left Case Against Supporting Joe Biden in the General Election --->>> (https://benjaminstudebaker.com/2020/08/31/the-left-case-against-supporting-joe-biden-in-the-general-election/#more-5122)
-Benjamin Studebaker

Trump, for all his faults, poses no existential threat to the republic. What’s more, Sanders and Robinson are deeply underestimating the damage a Biden presidency will cause. The Republican Party has become what it is because of Democrats like Joe Biden(and Obummer). These Democrats are pushing the Republican Party further and further right, and a Biden presidency will make the Republican Party even more dangerous going forward.

Joe Biden loves to tell us that “nothing will fundamentally change”. If nothing changes, another Democrat will normalise what Trump has done and frustrate the American people into voting for someone even more right-wing.

Look at what’s happened with Bush. He’s more popular than ever before. In the 00s, we recognised that Bush was nuts. Bush believed the God wanted him to bring peace to the Middle East by spreading democracy by the sword. That’s crazy! He killed hundreds of thousands of people and accomplished absolutely nothing.

But Barack Obama destroyed Libya in 2011. The civil war in that country continues to this day. And many of the people who recognised that Bush was nuts made excuses for that, and they made excuses for Hillary Clinton, the Secretary of State who urged him to do it. They acted like it was no big deal. And now people don’t think Bush’s wars were a big deal, either. They miss him. When Obama was first elected, the American people knew Bush was a terrible president. In January of 2009, Bush had a net favorability rating of negative 19. In the summer of 2016, it was plus 9. A year after that, it was plus 22.

The experience of the Obama administration made the American people decide that George W. Bush was okay. Worse, it made Trump possible.

[spurraider21]

there's no good left case against supporting joe biden in the general election, upon any meaningful analysis

[Capt Bringdown]

there's no good left case against supporting joe biden in the general election, upon any meaningful analysis

That's a statement, not an argument. What ya got?

[Will Hunting]

The argument regarding GWB is very real. It's disgusting to see Dems have a favorable view of him now.

[Capt Bringdown]

The argument regarding GWB is very real. It's disgusting to see Dems have a favorable view of him now.

Agreed. Bush was easily the worst president in my lifetime, far, far more damaging than Trump.
https://i.insider.com/5df3a5d9fd9db20ca763e346?width=1100&format=jpeg&auto=webp

[Will Hunting]

Agreed. Bush was easily the worst president in my lifetime, far, far more damaging than Trump.
Eh, pre-COVID I'd agree Bush was worse than Trump, but the way Trump has fucked COVID-19 up this badly he's worse than Bush.

[Will Hunting]

IMO there's no good reason to vote for Trump over Biden, but if Biden pulls an Obama by immediately moving to the right and cramming austerity down our throats, there needs to be an aggressive primary campaign in 2024 for a real Democrat.

[Reck]

Trump, for all his faults, poses no existential threat to the republic.

Oh really, tell me more.

[spurraider21]

That's a statement, not an argument. What ya got?
i think the damage of the trump administration is being grossly understated. i think the damage of an incumbent trump no longer seeking election would be a lot worse.

i dont agree that the next republican candidate will be more inherently right wing than trump (while he's not as fundamentally conservative on all issues the way cruz would be, he has FAR more of a right wing authoritarian bend than any other republican i can remember). following the 8 years of bush... the next 2 republican candidates were mccain and romney. i dont think thats quite the nightmare scenario (in the context of american politics).

and if the goal is to push the democratic party left, you can argue that it is better done with liberal democrats in office, because thats when a lot of democrats realize that status quo liberalism isn't solving a lot of our underlying problems. it was only after 8 years of obama where Sanders became a viable name on the national front... not after 8 years of Bush. seeing republican failures just tells people that orange man bad and we just need a democrat to fix things. seeing democrats not being able to solve the issues either would make people think "maybe that aoc person has a point"

i dont think the short term ramifications of withholding support from biden can be so downplayed as it is in the OP, nor do i see a necessarily beneficial long term outcome

[Will Hunting]

Oh really, tell me more.
Yeah, that's where the case against supporting Biden falls apart. Too much downside.

It's worth pointing out that the Democrats moving gradually to the right over the last 30 years is what put us in this position, but we can't go back and change that.

[Will Hunting]

seeing republican failures just tells people that orange man bad and we just need a democrat to fix things. seeing democrats not being able to solve the issues either would make people think "maybe that aoc person has a point
Hadn't even thought about this but great point tbh

[baseline bum]

The argument regarding GWB is very real. It's disgusting to see Dems have a favorable view of him now.

I wonder how much of that is just knowing not even Bush would have fucked the pandemic response up as badly as Trump. I mean it's fucked up Bush was killing people in the middle east for no good reason but Trump is killing us for no good reason, and I guess I don't give a shit about Iraqi lives compared to my own and those around me.

[Will Hunting]

I wonder how much of that is just knowing not even Bush would have fucked the pandemic response up as badly as Trump. I mean it's fucked up Bush was killing people in the middle east for no good reason but Trump is killing us for no good reason, and I guess I don't give a shit about Iraqi lives compared to my own and those around me.
Whatever it is I don't like it. Trump fucking up a pandemic as badly as a 3rd world country would shouldn't normalize a president lying us into a war so he can give Halliburton no bid contracts or responding to a hurricane as badly as Bush responded to Katrina.

[spurraider21]

Whatever it is I don't like it. Trump fucking up a pandemic as badly as a 3rd world country would shouldn't normalize a president lying us into a war so he can give Halliburton no bid contracts or responding to a hurricane as badly as he responded to Katrina.
presidents get away with shit as long as the economy is rolling. thats because the economy, generally speaking, is what voters actually experience on a day to day basis. going to work, paying bills, sending kids to school, etc.

voters here dont experience whats happening in iraq or afghanistan.

[Reck]

Eh, pre-COVID I'd agree Bush was worse than Trump, but the way Trump has fucked COVID-19 up this badly he's worse than Bush.

Even before that though he was nonchalantly ordering drone strikes, killing generals without even notifying congress. Speaking freely with the likes of Putin, Kim, etc.

Little by little Trump has fucked our democracy. The pandemic might have saved us from an all out assault on it.

[spurraider21]

Even before that though he was nonchalantly ordering drone strikes, killing generals without even notifying congress. Speaking freely with the likes of Putin, Kim, etc.

Little by little Trump has fucked our democracy. The pandemic might have saved us from an all out assault on it.
that's pretty Plandemic of you

[Will Hunting]

Even before that though he was nonchalantly ordering drone strikes, killing generals without even notifying congress. Speaking freely with the likes of Putin, Kim, etc.

Little by little Trump has fucked our democracy. The pandemic might have saved us from an all out assault on it.
I don't think people appreciate how much long term economic carnage the pandemic is going to do. It's going to accelerate wealth inequality and consolidation of small businesses. Even if COVID-19 has saved us from another Trump term its accelerated America's path towards becoming a modern day feudal oligarchy where the bottom 90% of the population owns nothing.

[Winehole23]

That's a statement, not an argument. What ya got?who are you voting for?

[DarrinS]

C'mon man. You know the thing.

[DMX7]

Basically, OP's posted argument is for the democrats to save the republican party from itself.

If Joe Biden wins the election, the democrats will have won 7 of the last 8 popular votes in presidential elections. It's really the republican party that's on its way to irrelevance in national elections if it doesn't reverse course to more moderate candidates. If Trump loses and the lesson learned is that the GOP needs an even further right wing candidate, then I think you'll see the GOP possibly go the way of the Whig Party.

[ChumpDumper]

The left that did these backflips against Clinton got us Trump and a shit federal judiciary for the next three decades.

Might as well finish the job for Trump.

[Capt Bringdown]

i think the damage of the trump administration is being grossly understated. i think the damage of an incumbent trump no longer seeking election would be a lot worse.


No fan of Trump, but I fail to see how he is an existential threat. I think this line is trotted out by Liberals (and their neo-con allies) as a cover for their policy weaknesses. The Liberal objections to Trump are aesthetic. The Democrats didn't mention impeachment once during their convention - even though Trump's conduct was supposedly a threat to our constitutional order not so long ago. Everyone knows their pearl-clutching is fake.
There are reasonable cases to be made against the re-election of Trump- the sky is falling doesn't seem to be convincing anyone besides the true believers.
The fact that polls are so close at the moment is astonishing.

[Will Hunting]

No fan of Trump, but I fail to see how he is an existential threat. I think this line is trotted out by Liberals (and their neo-con allies) as a cover for their policy weaknesses. The Liberal objections to Trump are aesthetic. The Democrats didn't mention impeachment once during their convention - even though Trump's conduct was supposedly a threat to our constitutional order not so long ago. Everyone knows their pearl-clutching is fake.
There are reasonable cases to be made against the re-election of Trump- the sky is falling doesn't seem to be convincing anyone besides the true believers.
The fact that polls are so close at the moment is astonishing.
He's actively trying to suppress the vote and isn't trying to hide it, that's namely the existential threat. You give him another 4 years to jam the courts with more right wing zealots (including a likely RBG replacement), he could get a court ruling that allows him to do stuff like send DHS agents to monitor voting precincts in swing states or create unnecessary bureaucracy around voter registration.

Setting that aside, there's no end in sight for COVID-19 if he gets re-elected, and the rest of the world will continue to shun us. We'll be isolated in a COVID-19 infested shithole while the rest of the world has recovered.

Like I said before, I don't think we should elect Biden and fall asleep like we did with Obama in 2008. Once Biden wins groups like BLM should ramp up the protesting even more (I'm 50% serious about this and 50% saying it just to trigger conservatives) to make sure there's a fire under his ass from the left. Obama didn't have anyone on the left keeping him honest, which inevitably led to him governing on a center right wing agenda.

There's a small part of me that agrees with you in the sense that another term of Trump likely leads to another Great Depression and a populist revolt, but I think the more likely outcome is more divisive violence like we're seeing now.

[spurraider21]

No fan of Trump, but I fail to see how he is an existential threat. I think this line is trotted out by Liberals (and their neo-con allies) as a cover for their policy weaknesses. The Liberal objections to Trump are aesthetic. The Democrats didn't mention impeachment once during their convention - even though Trump's conduct was supposedly a threat to our constitutional order not so long ago. Everyone knows their pearl-clutching is fake.
There are reasonable cases to be made against the re-election of Trump- the sky is falling doesn't seem to be convincing anyone besides the true believers.
The fact that polls are so close at the moment is astonishing.
you asked me, not nancy pelosi. idgaf how the dems posture during their convention

[Reck]

Like I said before, I don't think we should elect Biden and fall asleep like we did with Obama in 2008. Once Biden wins groups like BLM should ramp up the protesting even more (I'm 50% serious about this and 50% saying it just to trigger conservatives) to make sure there's a fire under his ass from the left. Obama didn't have anyone on the left keeping him honest, which inevitably led to him governing on a center right wing agenda.

This is just wrong and in bad faith.

You dont come to the table with threats like we'll burn shit if you dont concede this and that. That's not how you get what you want done.

If Biden wins I dont think he'll shut Bernie out. The door is already open and a relationship already exists there.

I can only hope we get the senate. If we somehow manage to flip it, I dont think you'll see a lot of hand wringing on passing substantive common sense legislation.

Since the environment is the easiest one and an issue both Bernie and Biden are on page one on, I'd say start there.

[Will Hunting]

This is just wrong and in bad faith.

You dont come to the table with threats like we'll burn shit if you dont concede this and that. That's not how you get what you want done.

If Biden wins I dont think he'll shut Bernie out. The door is already open and a relationship already exists there.

I can only hope we get the senate. If we somehow manage to flip it, I dont think you'll see a lot of hand wringing on passing substantive common sense legislation.

Since the environment is the easiest one and an issue both Bernie and Biden are on page one on, I'd say start there.
Sorry but this makes no sense. On!gger made it pretty clear that unless there's pressure from the left, an establishment Democrat is going to drift to the right and provide Wall Street with gold plated socialism while mainstreet is forced to recover with bootstrap capitalism.

The first piece of common sense legislation is another COVID relief package that gets financed by hiking taxes on the rich. If Biden doesn't want to do that then he's not a real Democrat.

He's still getting my vote but if his first term is 1/10th as pathetic as Obama's first term was neither he nor any establishment candidate who gets picked as his replacement gets my vote in 2024.

[Capt Bringdown]

If Joe Biden wins the election, the democrats will have won 7 of the last 8 popular votes in presidential elections.
This is meaningful only if you view elections as sports - yay, my team won. Both parties are neoliberal and imperialist at their core.


It's really the republican party that's on its way to irrelevance in national elections if it doesn't reverse course to more moderate candidates. If Trump loses and the lesson learned is that the GOP needs an even further right wing candidate, then I think you'll see the GOP possibly go the way of the Whig Party.

The Democrats answer to Trump was to pull right.
Biden is by far the most conservative Democratic candidate, and his campaign has focused more on aesthetics (restoring honor) than material and structural changes to the status quo.
Centrism enables and emboldens the right as well as suppresses the vote as people feel there is nothing material at stake.

Biden wouldn't even adopt economic populism to fight Trump, even though, for example, public approval for a national health care plan has never been higher.
Populist policies remain on the table for someone to pick up, and with the right-wing neoliberal Dems as "resistence" that is not a comforting prospect.

[Capt Bringdown]

Delete dubble Post

[Will Hunting]

This is meaningful only if you view elections as sports - yay, my team won. Both parties are neoliberal and imperialist at their core.



The Democrats answer to Trump was to pull right.
Biden is by far the most conservative Democratic candidate, and his campaign has focused more on aesthetics (restoring honor) than material and structural changes to the status quo.
Centrism enables and emboldens the right as well as suppresses the vote as people feel there is nothing material at stake.

Biden wouldn't even adopt economic populism to fight Trump, even though, for example, public approval for a national health care plan has never been higher.
Populist policies remain on the table for someone to pick up, and with the right-wing neoliberal Dems as "resistence" that is not a comforting prospect.
I agree with you on all of this but unfortunately a scenario where Trump picks RBG’s replacement is a bigger shit sandwich than what you’re describing. Any national healthcare plan passed after 2024 wouldn’t survive the courts if Neil Gorsuch is the deciding vote (rest assured that if 2nd term Trump is picking a SCOTUS nominee, it’s going to be someone further to the right than even Uncle Thomas or Alito, SCOTUS would have 3 liberals, 4 radical conservatives who would create whatever justification needed to strike down left wing legislation and 2 hardline conservatives in Gorsuch and Roberts who just happen to have more integrity than the other conservatives).

Not to mention Uncle Thomas probably steps down during Trump’s 2nd term, so he’d pick another radical and they’d have 6 young far right judges controlling our courts. Do you really think having a SCOTUS for the next 2 decades that has 4 Trump appointees on it is something we can afford?

[Spurminator]

George W Bush sucked but pretty sure he would have deferred to experts on a pandemic instead of just throwing gut bullshit out and amplifying COVID conspiracy theories.

[Capt Bringdown]

The first piece of common sense legislation is another COVID relief package that gets financed by hiking taxes on the rich. If Biden doesn't want to do that then he's not a real Democrat.


That sounds good, except that relief packages are not funded by taxes, although it may be politically expedient to portray them as such. Biden is a deficit hawk (which means he is either ignorant or pretending to be ignorant of the operational reality of government spending). His record on wanting to axe SS is crystal clear.
The moment when Dems abandon austerity will be when we will know they are real Democrats (in the FDR sense).

[Will Hunting]

George W Bush sucked but pretty sure he would have deferred to experts on a pandemic instead of just throwing gut bullshit out and amplifying COVID conspiracy theories.
True, but the way he handled Katrina tells me he would have procrastinated as badly as Trump did. At that point you’re right tho that he would have said to the experts hey I fucked up how do we handle this appropriately.

[Capt Bringdown]

I agree with you on all of this but unfortunately a scenario where Trump picks RBG’s replacement is a bigger shit sandwich than what you’re describing. Any national healthcare plan passed after 2024 wouldn’t survive the courts if Neil Gorsuch is the deciding vote (rest assured that if 2nd term Trump is picking a SCOTUS nominee, it’s going to be someone further to the right than even Uncle Thomas or Alito, SCOTUS would have 3 liberals, 4 radical conservatives who would create whatever justification needed to strike down left wing legislation and 2 hardline conservatives in Gorsuch and Roberts who just happen to have more integrity than the other conservatives).

Not to mention Uncle Thomas probably steps down during Trump’s 2nd term, so he’d pick another radical and they’d have 6 young far right judges controlling our courts. Do you really think having a SCOTUS for the next 2 decades that has 4 Trump appointees on it is something we can afford?

Biden's record in Supreme court matters isn't encouraging (hit man for Clarence Thomas). A so-called moderate appointment is the ceiling.

[Will Hunting]

Biden's record in Supreme court matters isn't encouraging (hit man for Clarence Thomas). A so-called moderate appointment is the ceiling.
Biden handled the Anita Hill matter horribly but he ultimately voted against Uncle Thomas. Also voted against Alito and was even one of the 22 senators to vote against Roberts. Of all the Biden criticisms I agree with, this isn’t one of them.

[ChumpDumper]

True, but the way he handled Katrina tells me he would have procrastinated as badly as Trump did. At that point you’re right tho that he would have said to the experts hey I fucked him how do we handle this appropriately.

Nah, Bush was the biggest pandemic hawk in presidential history. I wouldn't have minded his being made COVID czar tbh. Fuck him for Iraq and Katrina but he did actually give a shit about the United States on the whole.

[Th'Pusher]

Op is either a Russian troll or a quixotic Liberal. Petty ridiculous take tbh.

[Capt Bringdown]

Biden handled the Anita Hill matter horribly but he ultimately voted against Uncle Thomas. Also voted against Alito and was even one of the 22 senators to vote against Roberts. Of all the Biden criticisms I agree with, this isn’t one of them.

Good point. Trump's federal judge appointments have been more significant IMO than his supreme court appointments, and don't get talked about enough. In both areas, I don't see Biden as helping much - even more so since super-cop Harris will take the helm when Biden joins the celestial choir. I believe we're at a moment that requires major structural change and that's not happening with Biden or Trump.

[DarrinS]

Op is either a Russian troll or a quixotic Liberal. Petty ridiculous take tbh.

Muh Russia

[ChumpDumper]

Good point. Trump's federal judge appointments have been more significant IMO than his supreme court appointments, and don't get talked about enough. In both areas, I don't see Biden as helping much - even more so since super-cop Harris will take the helm when Biden joins the celestial choir. I believe we're at a moment that requires major structural change and that's not happening with Biden or Trump.So just give it to Trump.

Makes sense.

[Will Hunting]

Good point. Trump's federal judge appointments have been more significant IMO than his supreme court appointments, and don't get talked about enough. In both areas, I don't see Biden as helping much - even more so since super-cop Harris will take the helm when Biden joins the celestial choir. I believe we're at a moment that requires major structural change and that's not happening with Biden or Trump.
I don’t see Biden governing very differently than Obama did, and Obama did just fine on his Supreme Court picks. Biden will likely pick a left leaning woman to replace RBG.

SR21 made the best point in this thread imo. You’re more likely to see a populist Democrat after 4 years of Biden tripping over his own dick while AOC says “I told you so” than you are after 4 more years of Trump where the climate is getting a Democrat elected at all costs. Even with more name recognition infrastructure and funding Bernie did worse in 2020 than he did in 2016. Some of that was Hillary being a shitty candidate but a lot of it was also people being scared of running someone farther to the left against an incumbent they hate.

[Winehole23]

the accelerationist left is moronic. egging on fascism, tbh.

[DMX7]

This is meaningful only if you view elections as sports - yay, my team won. Both parties are neoliberal and imperialist at their core.



The Democrats answer to Trump was to pull right.

Hillary is almost a carbon copy of Biden politically, but Biden simply has less baggage and is perceived as more empathetic and authentic (whether that’s fair or not).

[Bogie]

IMO there's no good reason to vote for Trump over Biden, but if Biden pulls an Obama by immediately moving to the right and cramming austerity down our throats, there needs to be an aggressive primary campaign in 2024 for a real Democrat.

you do realize that requires winning both houses of Congress, and actually giving them cover to make the changes you claim to want, right?

Austerity was forced because the left didn’t show up in 2010, and allowed the birther led tea party to gain control.

A progressive president means nothing if they can’t pass any legislation.

now I’m sure you will lament corporate Dems and the dnc next. But if the progressive wing continues to fail to show up to vote in every election, federal state and local, they have no claim to the indignation so many social media martyrdom try use to absolve themselves of responsibility.

the reality is, they’ve appointed a shitload of judges up and down the federal registry, many whose only qualifications are their activist bent.

Civil rights and reproductive rights are all on the chopping block. A generational majority on the Supreme Court, and multigenerational majorities up and down, make that a real and genuine possibility.

this election isn’t about bold progressive ideas, it’s about stopping the continued destruction of what was America

[Bogie]

No fan of Trump, but I fail to see how he is an existential threat. I think this line is trotted out by Liberals (and their neo-con allies) as a cover for their policy weaknesses. The Liberal objections to Trump are aesthetic. The Democrats didn't mention impeachment once during their convention - even though Trump's conduct was supposedly a threat to our constitutional order not so long ago. Everyone knows their pearl-clutching is fake.
There are reasonable cases to be made against the re-election of Trump- the sky is falling doesn't seem to be convincing anyone besides the true believers.
The fact that polls are so close at the moment is astonishing.

do you have any friends?

Are any of those friends women? Black? Latino? Gay Lesbian our Trans?

The fact that you’re trying to rationalize the systematic stripping away of their rights, speaks far far more to what a piece of garbage you truly are, than any clever point you think you might be making

[Bogie]

Muh Russia

you are still weak minded, frightened, cowardly, and Incredibly insecure knowing you’re all of those things.

[Bogie]

Sorry but this makes no sense. On!gger made it pretty clear that unless there's pressure from the left, an establishment Democrat is going to drift to the right and provide Wall Street with gold plated socialism while mainstreet is forced to recover with bootstrap capitalism.

The first piece of common sense legislation is another COVID relief package that gets financed by hiking taxes on the rich. If Biden doesn't want to do that then he's not a real Democrat.

He's still getting my vote but if his first term is 1/10th as pathetic as Obama's first term was neither he nor any establishment candidate who gets picked as his replacement gets my vote in 2024.

there’s an incredible amount of missing context and historical revision you’re forwarding here

[Will Hunting]

you do realize that requires winning both houses of Congress, and actually giving them cover to make the changes you claim to want, right?

Austerity was forced because the left didn’t show up in 2010, and allowed the birther led tea party to gain control.

A progressive president means nothing if they can’t pass any legislation.

now I’m sure you will lament corporate Dems and the dnc next. But if the progressive wing continues to fail to show up to vote in every election, federal state and local, they have no claim to the indignation so many social media martyrdom try use to absolve themselves of responsibility.

the reality is, they’ve appointed a shitload of judges up and down the federal registry, many whose only qualifications are their activist bent.

Civil rights and reproductive rights are all on the chopping block. A generational majority on the Supreme Court, and multigenerational majorities up and down, make that a real and genuine possibility.

this election isn’t about bold progressive ideas, it’s about stopping the continued destruction of what was America
How do you explain the first two years before 2010 midterms? Obama had a huge house majority and 59 senators, he was just too much of a pussy to blow the filibuster up when McConnell was playing hardball, and deep down he knew his corporate sponsors didn’t want a real stimulus bill or for him to change the status quo too much. That’s what the entire Pelosi/Schumer/Clinton Democratic Party has been about for the last 30 years, preserving the status quo and never seeking reform that might upset their corporate sponsors.

The bad midterm turnout has to do with the fact the Democratic Party has no ideals it stands for beyond beating Republicans. That’s why midterm turnout is great when there is a Republican in the White House (see 2006 and 2018) but when it’s a Dem in the White House they regularly give up seats. There’s no progressive turnout because the Democratic Party actively tries to suppress support for progressive candidates (case and point, the Massachusetts Democratic Party helping college students orchestrate a hit piece on Alex Morse that would stoke homophobic stereotypes).

I really don’t care about civil rights when black people cant even bother to show up to vote tbh. It doesn’t affect me, I’d rather focus on things like healthcare. If black people want reform they should show up and vote, we wouldn’t have Trump as president if they voted in 2016. When they do show up to vote they should also maybe look for a candidate who isn’t a former pro segregation Delaware Dixiecrat.

[spurraider21]

I really don’t care about civil rights when black people cant even bother to show up to vote tbh. It doesn’t affect me, I’d rather focus on things like healthcare. If black people want reform they should show up and vote, we wouldn’t have Trump as president if they voted in 2016.
this is literally the caricature that candace owens and co create about the plantation democrats, tbh

[IronMexican]

IMO there's no good reason to vote for Trump over Biden, but if Biden pulls an Obama by immediately moving to the right and cramming austerity down our throats, there needs to be an aggressive primary campaign in 2024 for a real Democrat.

Of course he'll move right after getting elected. He wouldn't be a democratic president if he didn't.


Country will continue to slide further and further to the right and there's nothing we can do about it.

Chapo puts it in the best of terms when they say that he'll constantly remind you of how cool things used to be, where Trump is just in denial about everything and truly believes the shit coming out of his mouth. Biden's a grifter

[Will Hunting]

this is literally the caricature that candace owens and co create about the plantation democrats, tbh
Is anything I said about black people tripping over their own dick on the way to the ballot box wrong, or was that just a Candace Owens ad hominem?

[IronMexican]

This is meaningful only if you view elections as sports - yay, my team won. Both parties are neoliberal and imperialist at their core.



The Democrats answer to Trump was to pull right.
Biden is by far the most conservative Democratic candidate, and his campaign has focused more on aesthetics (restoring honor) than material and structural changes to the status quo.
Centrism enables and emboldens the right as well as suppresses the vote as people feel there is nothing material at stake.

Biden wouldn't even adopt economic populism to fight Trump, even though, for example, public approval for a national health care plan has never been higher.
Populist policies remain on the table for someone to pick up, and with the right-wing neoliberal Dems as "resistence" that is not a comforting prospect.

I'll have you know blue checkmarks on twitter said he's the most progressive candidate since XYZ, fuckboy.

[Will Hunting]

The fact Biden supporters ITT are lashing out at me is pretty hilarious. I already said I’m voting for the guy and giving money to his campaign, sorry that I’m unwilling to suck his shriveled old cock and pretend he’s not a center right wing neoconservative who FDR would be embarrassed to share the same political party with.

[spurraider21]

Is anything I said about black people tripping over their own dick on the way to the ballot box wrong, or was that just a Candace Owens ad hominem?
the part about you not caring about civil rights because it doesnt affect you if they dont vote the way you want in the primaries

[IronMexican]

The fact Biden supporters ITT are lashing out at me is pretty hilarious. I already said I’m voting for the guy and giving money to his campaign, sorry that I’m unwilling to suck his shriveled old cock and pretend he’s not a center right wing neoconservative who FDR would be embarrassed to share the same political party with.

Incredibly lame and unbased, guy

[spurraider21]

:lol am i one of the "biden supporters" who constantly said he's near the bottom of my list during the dem primaries (only ahead of bloomberg), contributed to warren and sanders campaigns, primaried against biden, have not and will not support his campaign financially (by that metric turns out will is a bigger biden supporter than i am), but will begrudgingly vote for him because 4 more years of a trump administration terrifies me?

i'm sorry that i dont hold the position that i dont care about civil rights of people who dont vote the way i want them to

[Will Hunting]

the part about you not caring about civil rights because it doesnt affect you if they dont vote the way you want in the primaries
The comment you quoted was about the fact they don’t vote at all. Why should I care about their civil rights when they don’t themselves? I’m not even joking, why is it so fucking hard for black people to vote with any semblance of reliability outside of when it was a black candidate on the ticket? Before you say voter suppression, the fact they’re part of a demographic who politicians are trying to suppress should only make them more motivated to vote. I’d wait in line all fucking day to cast a ballot if I thought it was against someone who was intentionally putting up road blocks to suppress my vote.

Regardless, the candidate I voted for in the primary cares a lot more about their civil rights than Trent Lott’s drinking buddy from back in the day who rammed the Crime Bill through Congress.

[IronMexican]

the Massachusetts Democratic Party helping college students orchestrate a hit piece on Alex Morse that would stoke homophobic stereotypes).


Unreal the bullshit that they played there.

Imagine doing all that for an internship. pathetic

[Will Hunting]

:lol am i one of the "biden supporters" who constantly said he's near the bottom of my list during the dem primaries (only ahead of bloomberg), contributed to warren and sanders campaigns, primaried against biden, have not and will not support his campaign financially (by that metric turns out will is a bigger biden supporter than i am), but will begrudgingly vote for him because 4 more years of a trump administration terrifies me?

i'm sorry that i dont hold the position that i dont care about civil rights of people who dont vote the way i want them to
Sorry, that shouldn’t have been targeted at you since your response to me was on a nuanced issue.

[Will Hunting]

Unreal the bullshit that they played there.

Imagine doing all that for an internship. pathetic
FTR, I gave A LOT more to Morse, Sanders and Cori Bush than I’ve given to Biden :lol

[spurraider21]

Sorry, that shouldn’t have been targeted at you since your response to me was on a nuanced issue.
arite... but in the context of us being in the middle of a back and forth, seemed directed at me. will take your word tho :tu

[Will Hunting]

arite... but in the context of us being in the middle of a back and forth, seemed pretty clearly directed at me. will take your word tho :tu
No it was in response to you but I’m saying it shouldn’t have been. I was more annoyed with the other posters making excuses for how a huge house majority and a 59 senator majority wasn’t enough for Obama to get anything beyond Bob Dole’s healthcare bill done in 2 years.

[spurraider21]

here's a handy voter's guide btw

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg4zTMeXcAMAAC8?format=jpg&name=900x900

[IronMexican]

Really don't get why people try to make people feel bad for not voting for that racist rapist with the blue next to his name

Hispanics overwhelmingly supported Bernie, and was set to win the election handily after Nevada, but the entire establishment got in line to make sure it did not happen. This isn't the progressives fight anymore.Not voting for Biden now and maybe never again voting democrat.


I live in California and most progressives live in coastal states that vote blue anyways, so I doubt it changes anything

[Bogie]

How do you explain the first two years before 2010 midterms? Obama had a huge house majority and 59 senators, he was just too much of a pussy to blow the filibuster up when McConnell was playing hardball, and deep down he knew his corporate sponsors didn’t want a real stimulus bill or for him to change the status quo too much. That’s what the entire Pelosi/Schumer/Clinton Democratic Party has been about for the last 30 years, preserving the status quo and never seeking reform that might upset their corporate sponsors.

The bad midterm turnout has to do with the fact the Democratic Party has no ideals it stands for beyond beating Republicans. That’s why midterm turnout is great when there is a Republican in the White House (see 2006 and 2018) but when it’s a Dem in the White House they regularly give up seats. There’s no progressive turnout because the Democratic Party actively tries to suppress support for progressive candidates (case and point, the Massachusetts Democratic Party helping college students orchestrate a hit piece on Alex Morse that would stoke homophobic stereotypes).

I really don’t care about civil rights when black people cant even bother to show up to vote tbh. It doesn’t affect me, I’d rather focus on things like healthcare. If black people want reform they should show up and vote, we wouldn’t have Trump as president if they voted in 2016. When they do show up to vote they should also maybe look for a candidate who isn’t a former pro segregation Delaware Dixiecrat.

ironically the African American vote is what made Biden the nominee.

second, do you think the mainstream r’s agreed with the birther tea party in 2010? Oh course they didn’t.

but that block made themselves the driving force it republicanism the last decade.

You want the b Dems to treat you special when you don’t show up. That is incredibly shortsighted and shallow.

and yikes the racist overtones

[IronMexican]

Isn't Capt Bringdown from Thailand?

[spurraider21]

The comment you quoted was about the fact they don’t vote at all. Why should I care about their civil rights when they don’t themselves? I’m not even joking, why is it so fucking hard for black people to vote with any semblance of reliability outside of when it was a black candidate on the ticket? Before you say voter suppression, the fact they’re part of a demographic who politicians are trying to suppress should only make them more motivated to vote. I’d wait in line all fucking day to cast a ballot if I thought it was against someone who was intentionally putting up road blocks to suppress my vote.

Regardless, the candidate I voted for in the primary cares a lot more about their civil rights than Trent Lott’s drinking buddy from back in the day who rammed the Crime Bill through Congress.
but isnt that the whole plantation meme, that they only care about black people for their vote?

if there was systemic discrimination against white southern farmers who overwhelmingly support trump, i'd fight to end that too.

[Bogie]

No it was in response to you but I’m saying it shouldn’t have been. I was more annoyed with the other posters making excuses for how a huge house majority and a 59 senator majority wasn’t enough for Obama to get anything beyond Bob Dole’s healthcare bill done in 2 years.

ah you have morphed into that guy.

ok, I have no idea how old you are, but will you’re still omitting a whole lot of context

and I contributed to, and voted for warren

i was a national delegate for bernie in 2016, because he was the only guy talking about the real issue in this country, which is wealth inequality But the online bro logic pushed me away fun him.

[spurraider21]

Really don't get why people try to make people feel bad for not voting for that racist rapist with the blue next to his name

Hispanics overwhelmingly supported Bernie, and was set to win the election handily after Nevada, but the entire establishment got in line to make sure it did not happen. This isn't the progressives fight anymore.Not voting for Biden now and maybe never again voting democrat.


I live in California and most progressives live in coastal states that vote blue anyways, so I doubt it changes anything
probably because that attitude, imo, just says that the actual differences between trump and biden dont personally affect you so you dont really care either way between them. their differences might not be where you care the most, or wide enough to the point you'd care... but they are there. and they will impact millions

[IronMexican]

probably because that attitude, imo, just says that the actual differences between trump and biden dont personally affect you so you dont really care either way between them

Because they really don't.

Biden set this country down the road we are on throughout his life with his right wing agenda and now we're supposed to relate to a guy who took corporate money and defends the state of Israel. He's a scumbag corporate shill.

[IronMexican]

probably because that attitude, imo, just says that the actual differences between trump and biden dont personally affect you so you dont really care either way between them. their differences might not be where you care the most, or wide enough to the point you'd care... but they are there. and they will impact millions

And the "changes anything line" was meant for the outcome.


But yes. RGB should have been retired and the stupid decisions the democrats have constantly made aren't going to hold me hostage.

[spurraider21]

probably because that attitude, imo, just says that the actual differences between trump and biden dont personally affect you so you dont really care either way between them.


Because they really don't.
i guess we just axiomatically disagree at that point on whether or not thats a good enough reason not to vote

[Will Hunting]

ironically the African American vote is what made Biden the nominee.

second, do you think the mainstream r’s agreed with the birther tea party in 2010? Oh course they didn’t.

but that block made themselves the driving force it republicanism the last decade.

You want the b Dems to treat you special when you don’t show up. That is incredibly shortsighted and shallow.

and yikes the racist overtones
What do you mean when I don’t show up? I’ve voted in every midterm and general election since I turned 18, and most of the primaries along the way as well (when I say most I didn’t vote in uncontested primaries).

The mainstream Rs saw the tea baggers as a way to drag the whole country to the right and to make it so the establishment Republicans seemed like the sensible ones who Democrats should work with, even though the establishment Republican ideas were only a little less shitty than the tea bagger ideas. It’s a strategy the Dems should emulate, don’t you think cutting a deal with Pelosi is something the Republicans will be more inclined to do when the alternative is dealing with AOC?

I don’t want the Dems to treat anyone special, I want them to create a level playing field where voters can decide on the issues. That’s not happening now. Every time we get a Democratic candidate who supports single payer healthcare, MSNBC gets a panel together that usually includes that whore Claire McCaskill and James Carville to talk about how UNELECTABLE said candidate is. Here’s a thought - rather than tell voters who is and isn’t electable and play games with endorsements, just let voters decide for themselves so we end up with the candidate who was able to generate the most popularity and support.

And yes, I agree it’s ironic that black people are the ones who voted for Captain Crime Bill as the Democratic nominee.

[IronMexican]

typical of a spurfan to take my post out of context, though. Classless organization

[Will Hunting]

but isnt that the whole plantation meme, that they only care about black people for their vote?

if there was systemic discrimination against white southern farmers who overwhelmingly support trump, i'd fight to end that too.
Speak for yourself on that one. For amount of shit Trump supporters have put this country through they should be paying as reparations when this is all over.

[spurraider21]

typical of a spurfan to take my post out of context, though. Classless organization
what context did i leave out? :lol

[Bogie]

here's a handy voter's guide btw

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg4zTMeXcAMAAC8?format=jpg&name=900x900

you have actually encapsulated the issue I have begun to have with the modern progressive

the lack of understanding that as tip O’Neal said, all politics are local is seemingly too nuanced for them.

trading one cult of personality in trump for another in Bernie means nothing. It won’t accomplish anything.

you want to move leftward, you start by electing Bernie Sanders city councils and mayors, elect Bernie Sanders State Reps and senators. Bernie Sanders governors. Elect congress people and senators. Accept the place conservative Dems have in the party. Then show the hell up to give them cover at election time.

Thinking that a president without the support of a friendly congress Will miraculously work, in these times, is a pipe dream

[spurraider21]

Speak for yourself on that one. For amount of shit Trump supporters have put this country through they should be paying as reparations when this is all over.
i am speaking for myself. that's why i used the word "i'd" fight...

[IronMexican]

what context did i leave out? :lol

You took me saying "Doesn't matter" as me saying it doesn't affect my life, when I meant it as the progressive vote means little because they're mostly on solid blue states

[spurraider21]

.

[spurraider21]

You took me saying "Doesn't matter" as me saying it doesn't affect my life, when I meant it as the progressive vote means little because they're mostly on solid blue states
was the only logical conclusion when you only quoted that sentence of my post, where i specifically mentioned it not affecting your life. if i misunderstood, im sorry, but your post heavily implied it

https://i.gyazo.com/ba966bba764585d0fffb52ee46c5faf1.png

dont know what else "they really dont" could be referring to here when this is all you quoted

[Will Hunting]

ah you have morphed into that guy.

ok, I have no idea how old you are, but will you’re still omitting a whole lot of context

and I contributed to, and voted for warren

i was a national delegate for bernie in 2016, because he was the only guy talking about the real issue in this country, which is wealth inequality But the online bro logic pushed me away fun him.
Yeah, deciding who to support or not to support based off how supporters act on Twitter. Great way to look at things.

Biden adopting Bernie’s plan of raising the cap gains tax up to the ordinary tax rate is the only reason I’ve given him money. It doesn’t do nearly enough but it does some to address wealth inequality.

If Biden gets us out of COVID hell, raises the cap gains tax and adds a public option to healthcare (that’s now highly unlikely since Rubber Richie Neal will still be chairing Ways and Means), id consider his presidency a decent transition.

[IronMexican]

was the only logical conclusion when you only quoted that sentence of my post, where i specifically mentioned it not affecting your life. if i misunderstood, im sorry, but your post heavily implied it

https://i.gyazo.com/ba966bba764585d0fffb52ee46c5faf1.png

dont know what else "they really dont" could be referring to here when this is all you quoted

classless

[spurraider21]

Yeah, deciding who to support or not to support based off how supporters act on Twitter. Great way to look at things.

Biden adopting Bernie’s plan of raising the cap gains tax up to the ordinary tax rate is the only reason I’ve given him money. It doesn’t do nearly enough but it does some to address wealth inequality.

If Biden gets us out of COVID hell, raises the cap gains tax and adds a public option to healthcare (that’s now highly unlikely since Rubber Richie Neal will still be chairing Wayd and Means), id consider his presidency a decent transition.
T. B. H.

[spurraider21]

classless
now you're just whining tbh

[Will Hunting]

you have actually encapsulated the issue I have begun to have with the modern progressive

the lack of understanding that as tip O’Neal said, all politics are local is seemingly too nuanced for them.

trading one cult of personality in trump for another in Bernie means nothing. It won’t accomplish anything.

you want to move leftward, you start by electing Bernie Sanders city councils and mayors, elect Bernie Sanders State Reps and senators. Bernie Sanders governors. Elect congress people and senators. Accept the place conservative Dems have in the party. Then show the hell up to give them cover at election time.

Thinking that a president without the support of a friendly congress Will miraculously work, in these times, is a pipe dream
I actually agree with this, which is my main gripe with the Democratic Party. It campaigns more aggressively against progressive insurgent candidates in dark blue districts than it does against Republicans in swing districts. Wouldn’t the Democratic Party want its bluest districts to have leftist reps? I could sympathize with having more moderate candidates at the national level except the Democratic Pary is clearly hellbent on pillow smothering progressive candidates whenever they appear.

To use the same example as before, Richie Neal isn’t even a moderate on healthcare. His goal is ensuring Blackstone (his biggest contributor) can keep surprise billing going for the healthcare companies in its portfolio even though most Republicans are against surprise billing at this point, and he’s in a dark blue district. It’s not a race where the Democrats needed a moderate to win, yet they pulled out every dirty trick in the book to stop Morse’s campaign. He’s as far right as it gets in terms of wanting uncontrolled healthcare costs. The Democratic Party should want nothing to do with Richie Neal, and instead it has him chairing the committee in charge of healthcare reform.

Theres a fine line between being pragmatic and trying to win the center while still being a Democrat vs. shamelessly whoring your party to corporations to win elections while maintaining the bare minimum amount of left wing ideals, and the Democratic Party is well past it.

[IronMexican]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVmsMwEs2VY

[spurraider21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVmsMwEs2VY
entertaining but vacuous tbh. its more of "they're exactly the same thing"

[boutons_deux]

I fail to see how he is an existential threat.

150K+ dead Americans aren't "existential" anymore because of Trash

there will 1000s more diseased, damaged, dead people from Trash's destruction of EPA, Interior, Labor, Energy, Education, etc.

Perdue, etc see virgin forests as crops, and wonderful sites for resource extraction.

ACA will be killed, 10Ks will die for want of health care,

Another 4 years of Trash and his Repug kakistocracy will widen and deepen the horrendous damage so far which already will last many years.

Hard and long to build, much easier and quicker to destroy. Fuck Trash and Repugs and Capitalism to hell

[Bogie]

Yeah, deciding who to support or not to support based off how supporters act on Twitter. Great way to look at things.

Biden adopting Bernie’s plan of raising the cap gains tax up to the ordinary tax rate is the only reason I’ve given him money. It doesn’t do nearly enough but it does some to address wealth inequality.

If Biden gets us out of COVID hell, raises the cap gains tax and adds a public option to healthcare (that’s now highly unlikely since Rubber Richie Neal will still be chairing Ways and Means), id consider his presidency a decent transition.

actually, it’s the idea that somehow a group, supposedly so passionate about ideals, not participating, and trying to absolve themselves of any sort of culpability for lack of participation is what soured me on the Bernie, not progressive, movement.

If these things mean so much, then there should be absolutely no reason to not be engaged at every level. It wasn’t that long ago, post 2016, r’s held 30 + governorships, most with at least one house of state government as well.

the lurch to the right you decry didn’t happen in a vacuum. It happened because too many people like you (not you) didn’t show up to vote and make their voices heard for decades.

you have to win elections to have a say. You can say it’s the dnc all you want, but they’re a mirror of their support. If you can’t change the reflection they see when looking into it, you really lose your right to complain.

[Will Hunting]

actually, it’s the idea that somehow a group, supposedly so passionate about ideals, not participating, and trying to absolve themselves of any sort of culpability for lack of participation is what soured me on the Bernie, not progressive, movement.

If these things mean so much, then there should be absolutely no reason to not be engaged at every level. It wasn’t that long ago, post 2016, r’s held 30 + governorships, most with at least one house of state government as well.

the lurch to the right you decry didn’t happen in a vacuum. It happened because too many people like you (not you) didn’t show up to vote and make their voices heard for decades.

you have to win elections to have a say. You can say it’s the dnc all you want, but they’re a mirror of their support. If you can’t change the reflection they see when looking into it, you really lose your right to complain.
The Democrats failing to actively participating in state level elections isn't something that you can pin on progressives. It's a party wide issue that starts with leadership. They simply haven't prioritized controlling state legislatures and governor seats the way Republicans have. It's part of a broader theme where Republicans are more unified in their message and maintaining power. Sandra Day O'Connor stepped down from SCOTUS 15 years ago just to ensure it would be a conservative president who picks her replacement even though she was in good health and could still be on SCOTUS to this day. Contrast that with RBG being a self-absorbed bitch who's put her seat in jeopardy because she was sure Hillary would win and wanted a :cryfemale president:cry to pick her replacement.

Like it or not voter shaming doesn't work. If anything the voter shaming only makes it so the people you're shaming are even more stubborn. I think the BernieBros who aren't voting out of spite this year are insane (especially since to your point there's races on the ballot beyond just the presidency), but you're not going to convince them to vote by shaming them the way you're doing in this post. At some point the Democratic Party needs to stop blaming the BernieBros and ask itself why, notwithstanding the fact it's the party that's supposed to represent liberal ideals, the most liberal people in the country are so displeased with it that they'd rather risk a 2nd Trump term than vote for Biden. Your post ignores the reality that telling voters "hey the alternative is so bad I shouldn't even need to explain to you why you should vote Democrat, you should just show up and do it because we're not as bad as the Republicans" has never worked. If Donald Trump running this country into the ground hasn't changed that, nothing is ever going to.

The notion that the DNC is a "mirror of its support" can't actually be serious. 80% of Democratic voters support Medicare for all, but the DNC makes an effort to blackball candidates who support it. The DNC is a product of what its corporate sponsors want.

[Bogie]

The Democrats failing to actively participating in state level elections isn't something that you can pin on progressives. It's a party wide issue that starts with leadership. They simply haven't prioritized controlling state legislatures and governor seats the way Republicans have. It's part of a broader theme where Republicans are more unified in their message and maintaining power. Sandra Day O'Connor stepped down from SCOTUS 15 years ago just to ensure it would be a conservative president who picks her replacement even though she was in good health and could still be on SCOTUS to this day. Contrast that with RBG being a self-absorbed bitch who's put her seat in jeopardy because she was sure Hillary would win and wanted a :cryfemale president:cry to pick her replacement.

Like it or not voter shaming doesn't work. If anything the voter shaming only makes it so the people you're shaming are even more stubborn. I think the BernieBros who aren't voting out of spite this year are insane (especially since to your point there's races on the ballot beyond just the presidency), but you're not going to convince them to vote by shaming them the way you're doing in this post. At some point the Democratic Party needs to stop blaming the BernieBros and ask itself why, notwithstanding the fact it's the party that's supposed to represent liberal ideals, the most liberal people in the country are so displeased with it that they'd rather risk a 2nd Trump term than vote for Biden. Your post ignores the reality that telling voters "hey the alternative is so bad I shouldn't even need to explain to you why you should vote Democrat, you should just show up and do it because we're not as bad as the Republicans" has never worked. If Donald Trump running this country into the ground hasn't changed that, nothing is ever going to.

The notion that the DNC is a "mirror of its support" can't actually be serious. 80% of Democratic voters support Medicare for all, but the DNC makes an effort to blackball candidates who support it. The DNC is a product of what its corporate sponsors want.

why is it the parties responsibility to cater to a block that has never ever consistently shown up to vote?

You want a voice, then gain that power through participation.

Medicare 4 all has always been popular. But people aren’t going to change unless it’s forced. progs, and other ideological purists have always seemed to think that the way to show the dem establishment is to not show up.

well that gave us w, and now Trump.

Quick question, are you white?

[Will Hunting]

why is it the parties responsibility to cater to a block that has never ever consistently shown up to vote?

You want a voice, then gain that power through participation.

Medicare 4 all has always been popular. But people aren’t going to change unless it’s forced. progs, and other ideological purists have always seemed to think that the way to show the dem establishment is to not show up.

well that gave us w, and now Trump.

Quick question, are you white?
The party is supposed to represent its voters. The DNC doesn't do that, it has its own agenda that's agnostic to what the Democratic base actually wants. After Romney lost in large part due to lack of enthusiasm from his base, the RNC didn't actively try to cram another milquetoast establishment candidate down their throat in 2016, it held an honest primary and let its voters nominate Trump.

As I've already said, you're naively oversimplifying the process of gaining power through representation. The DNC doesn't simply ignore progressives and say "We're here to help you when you win," it actively works to impede them. When a gay progressive runs for a house seat in Massachusetts, the Massachusetts Democrat Party conspires with a couple fuckwad college kids who want an internship with the incumbent to run a smear campaign geared at stoking homophonic stereotypes. The Party should be focused on helping Democrats beat Republicans, it shouldn't be picking horses in and funding primary races. That's why progressives think the best way to show the Dem establishment is to not show up. The Dem establishment actively works to undermine and silence progressivism. It's intellectually dishonest to pretend the DNC establishment is more than open to progressive ideals but they just don't have enough support. They have no support because the DNC fights harder against far left ideals than it does against far right ideals.

Yes, I'm white.

[Bogie]

The party is supposed to represent its voters. The DNC doesn't do that, it has its own agenda that's agnostic to what the Democratic base actually wants. After Romney lost in large part due to lack of enthusiasm from his base, the RNC didn't actively try to cram another milquetoast establishment candidate down their throat in 2016, it held an honest primary and let its voters nominate Trump.

As I've already said, you're naively oversimplifying the process of gaining power through representation. The DNC doesn't simply ignore progressives and say "We're here to help you when you win," it actively works to impede them. When a gay progressive runs for a house seat in Massachusetts, the Massachusetts Democrat Party conspires with a couple fuckwad college kids who want an internship with the incumbent to run a smear campaign geared at stoking homophonic stereotypes. The Party should be focused on helping Democrats beat Republicans, it shouldn't be picking horses in and funding primary races. That's why progressives think the best way to show the Dem establishment is to not show up. The Dem establishment actively works to undermine and silence progressivism. It's intellectually dishonest to pretend the DNC establishment is more than open to progressive ideals but they just don't have enough support. They have no support because the DNC fights harder against far left ideals than it does against far right ideals.

Yes, I'm white.

you’re making my point. They are representing the people that actually vote. And most of rational America isn’t radical either way.

if the prog wing wants to win with ideas, you actually have to frame the ideas, and CONTROL THE GOD DAMNED NARRATIVE. And then accept that getting 85% of what you want is better than less than zero, and fucking show up to vote.

Dems are getting more votes, but because they have not been consistent in showing up at the polls every election, they’ve allowed the r’s to create a system where they don’t need to win to rule.

the ONLY way that changes is through participation. Let trump win again, see what happens to the non white male population of this country.

[Reck]

Lol this thread went to complete shit.

Only takes a right winger to incite a pointless argument to have people from the same side to bicker and fight over night. Notch another win for Trump.

[Spurtacular]

The Democrat Whores Ticket is sh**.
Chumpettes have hurt feelings.

[Will Hunting]

you’re making my point. They are representing the people that actually vote. And most of rational America isn’t radical either way.

if the prog wing wants to win with ideas, you actually have to frame the ideas, and CONTROL THE GOD DAMNED NARRATIVE. And then accept that getting 85% of what you want is better than less than zero, and fucking show up to vote.

Dems are getting more votes, but because they have not been consistent in showing up at the polls every election, they’ve allowed the r’s to create a system where they don’t need to win to rule.

the ONLY way that changes is through participation. Let trump win again, see what happens to the non white male population of this country.
You keep repeating JUST SHOW UP AND VOTE without addressing anything I'm actually saying. Like it or not, yelling at BernieBros to JUST VOTE FOR WHATEVER MILQUETOAST CLOWN WE CRAM DOWN YOUR THROAT isn't ever going to work. It's just going to piss BernieBros off more. At some point the burden rests on the party to rally its base, not on the base to rally itself.

Keep vote shaming though, it worked really well in 2016.

:lmao implying Jim Crow Joe wants is pushing for 85% of what BernieBros want. His campaign staffer already tipped his hand when he said the Trump tax cuts are going to make it so Biden isn't going to be able to do much. It has all the makings of another 2009.

Btw, one of the reasons Democrats lose so badly with white males is the attitude :cry everyone but white males has it so tough, you should vote Democrat for them :cry. There are plenty of white males in this country who are poor, sick, unemployed etc. They vote Republican because of the constant white male shaming from Democrats.

[baseline bum]

nm

[Bogie]

You keep repeating JUST SHOW UP AND VOTE without addressing anything I'm actually saying. Like it or not, yelling at BernieBros to JUST VOTE FOR WHATEVER MILQUETOAST CLOWN WE CRAM DOWN YOUR THROAT isn't ever going to work. It's just going to piss BernieBros off more. At some point the burden rests on the party to rally its base, not on the base to rally itself.

Keep vote shaming though, it worked really well in 2016.

:lmao implying Jim Crow Joe wants is pushing for 85% of what BernieBros want. His campaign staffer already tipped his hand when he said the Trump tax cuts are going to make it so Biden isn't going to be able to do much. It has all the makings of another 2009.

Btw, one of the reasons Democrats lose so badly with white males is the attitude :cry everyone but white males has it so tough, you should vote Democrat for them :cry. There are plenty of white males in this country who are poor, sick, unemployed etc. They vote Republican because of the constant white male shaming from Democrats.

yikes that’s Nathan territory there.

But, again, if you don’t participate, no one is going to listen to what you have to say.

I don’t get why you think that a block of voters should be catered to when they do nothing to help win elections. I mean, I get it, it’s been a pretty common refrain from prog’s as they have sought to absolve themselves of culpability.

when you (metaphorical) manage to show up year in and year out and vote, they will pay attention. They will have to then. At this point, progs haven’t earned that ass kissing.

I’m still hopeful that the young people will see what they can do, and harness their power. But they’ve never stepped up to the plate on a meaningful and consistent basis.

[Reck]

nm

Why did you edit the post? It was solid.

[Will Hunting]

yikes that’s Nathan territory there.

But, again, if you don’t participate, no one is going to listen to what you have to say.

I don’t get why you think that a block of voters should be catered to when they do nothing to help win elections. I mean, I get it, it’s been a pretty common refrain from prog’s as they have sought to absolve themselves of culpability.

when you (metaphorical) manage to show up year in and year out and vote, they will pay attention. They will have to then. At this point, progs haven’t earned that ass kissing.

I’m still hopeful that the young people will see what they can do, and harness their power. But they’ve never stepped up to the plate on a meaningful and consistent basis.
How am I culpable exactly? You keep voter shaming me without addressing anything I’m saying.

You have a deep resentment for BernieBros and don’t even know why :lol

[baseline bum]

Why did you edit the post? It was solid.

The information I quoted was wrong (misread a graph), which mostly invalidated the argument I was making about 18-30 showing up in such low numbers that information would have indicated in the primaries for Bernie.

[Will Hunting]

The information I quoted was wrong (misread a graph), which mostly invalidated the argument I was making about 18-30 showing up in ridiculously low numbers in the primaries for Bernie.
Yeah the low percentage for <30 voters in this primary was largely due to the fact there were simply less of them. A lot of millennials have turned 30 since 2016 and there aren’t anywhere near as many gen Z voters.

[Trainwreck2100]

You keep repeating JUST SHOW UP AND VOTE without addressing anything I'm actually saying. Like it or not, yelling at BernieBros to JUST VOTE FOR WHATEVER MILQUETOAST CLOWN WE CRAM DOWN YOUR THROAT isn't ever going to work. It's just going to piss BernieBros off more. At some point the burden rests on the party to rally its base, not on the base to rally itself.

Keep vote shaming though, it worked really well in 2016.

:lmao implying Jim Crow Joe wants is pushing for 85% of what BernieBros want. His campaign staffer already tipped his hand when he said the Trump tax cuts are going to make it so Biden isn't going to be able to do much. It has all the makings of another 2009.

Btw, one of the reasons Democrats lose so badly with white males is the attitude :cry everyone but white males has it so tough, you should vote Democrat for them :cry. There are plenty of white males in this country who are poor, sick, unemployed etc. They vote Republican because of the constant white male shaming from Democrats.

don't forget the latinos that vote R because :cry mah abortion :cry even though the supreme court has been dominated by the Republican party for decades and when the tiebreaker left, his replacement only got the job by promising to uphold :cry mah abortion :cry

[Will Hunting]

don't forget the latinos that vote R because :cry mah abortion :cry even though the supreme court has been dominated by the Republican party for decades and when the tiebreaker left, his replacement only got the job by promising to uphold :cry mah abortion :cry
Or worse, the Cubans who get disproportionate attention because of the electoral college and vote R because of :cry muh Castro :cry even though the Republicans are the party that want to fix elections and have totalitarian rule.

But yeah I think SCOTUS only has two justices who would overturn Roe v Wade. All the stories from this session were that Kavanaugh wanted to avoid ruling on abortion related issues, and Gorsuch strikes me as someone who’s going to be awful on things like Citizens United but will otherwise be socially liberal. People thinking Roe v Wade getting overturned is even a possibility are delusional.

[Trainwreck2100]

Or worse, the Cubans who get disproportionate attention because of the electoral college and vote R because of :cry muh Castro :cry even though the Republicans are the party that want to fix elections and have totalitarian rule.

But yeah I think SCOTUS only has two justices who would overturn Roe v Wade. All the stories from this session were that Kavanaugh wanted to avoid ruling on abortion related issues, and Gorsuch strikes me as someone who’s going to be awful on things like Citizens United but will otherwise be socially liberal. People thinking Roe v Wade getting overturned is even a possibility are delusional.
don't get your hopes up Gorsuch is an originalist, another originalist that served on the court, Antonin Scalia. He upholds old laws and agreements due to precedent so that goes against what the Republicans want because they keep trying to overturn shit, but any new legislations I see him ruling against

[Will Hunting]

don't get your hopes up Gorsuch is an originalist, another originalist that served on the court, Antonin Scalia. He upholds old laws and agreements due to precedent so that goes against what the Republicans want because they keep trying to overturn shit, but any new legislations I see him ruling against
Yeah I don’t have my hopes up at all, I was only speaking to Roe v Wade. I fully expect Gorsuch to rule in favor of corporations and rich people whenever possible.

[Capt Bringdown]

Who are the non-voters? -->> (https://theintercept.com/2020/04/09/nonvoters-are-not-privileged-they-are-largely-lower-income-non-white-and-dissatisfied-with-the-two-parties/)
One of the most comprehensive surveys of nonvoters was published by Pew Research Center on August 9, 2018.
Nonvoters were more likely to be younger, less educated, less affluent and nonwhite.

The Pew data on this issue is stark. Almost half of nonvoters in the 2016 presidential election were nonwhite, even though they compose only one-fourth of the voting population. Even more extreme is the data on class: More than half of nonvoters — 56% — are quite poor, making less than $30,000, even though that income group constitutes just over one-fourth of the voting population. The people who choose to vote are disproportionately privileged; those who are nonprivileged choose disproportionately not to vote.

To deny agency to poorer and nonwhite nonvoters, it is sometimes claimed that voter suppression efforts — rather than a cognizant and rational choice — is the primary factor explaining the behavior of poor and nonwhite nonvoters. That is also false.

A separate Pew survey, in 2017, of people who are not registered to vote found exactly the opposite: that people who refrain from participating in the electoral process largely do so because they are dissatisfied with the choices or believe voting will not change their lives.

"No change" Biden is a voter-suppression machine.

[spurraider21]

"No change" Biden is a voter-suppression machine.
meanwhile the other option is trying to literally suppress voters through the legal system

[DMC]

"No change" Biden is a voter-suppression machine.

People actually believe (through experience) that the amount of trouble it takes to vote is never countered by the benefits of voting. Regardless who wins, their lives are basically the same. The same cannot be said for political "fans" - those people who feel they are part of their political party and treat elections like a sporting event.

[ElNono]

Or worse, the Cubans who get disproportionate attention because of the electoral college and vote R because of :cry muh Castro :cry even though the Republicans are the party that want to fix elections and have totalitarian rule.

But yeah I think SCOTUS only has two justices who would overturn Roe v Wade. All the stories from this session were that Kavanaugh wanted to avoid ruling on abortion related issues, and Gorsuch strikes me as someone who’s going to be awful on things like Citizens United but will otherwise be socially liberal. People thinking Roe v Wade getting overturned is even a possibility are delusional.

Honestly, Cubans vote (R) because they're the only latino demographic I know of that gets free green cards, and are not demonized as the latino rapists and criminals... You can thank St Ronnie for det one.

[Bogie]

How am I culpable exactly? You keep voter shaming me without addressing anything I’m saying.

You have a deep resentment for BernieBros and don’t even know why :lol

Of course I’m addressing what you’re saying. You just refuse to listen.

you’re saying kiss our ass, and do what we want, but we’re not going to show up to vote to give you cover to make the essential changes.

then we will sit back and blame you for us not voting.

this is the same shit the right has done to the government the last 40 years to ensure it no longer works the way it’s supposed to. Starve it intentionally. then when it doesn’t work the way it was designed, say it’s the fault of the apparatus.

This is exactly that.

[Will Hunting]

Of course I’m addressing what you’re saying. You just refuse to listen.

you’re saying kiss our ass, and do what we want, but we’re not going to show up to vote to give you cover to make the essential changes.

then we will sit back and blame you for us not voting.

this is the same shit the right has done to the government the last 40 years to ensure it no longer works the way it’s supposed to. Starve it intentionally. then when it doesn’t work the way it was designed, say it’s the fault of the apparatus.

This is exactly that.
When did I say we're not going to show up and vote? I've repeatedly said I'm voting for Biden and that any BernieBro who isn't voting for Biden is insane, but I've also said vote shaming doesn't work.

Again, you're not arguing with anything I'm actually saying.

You act like voters owe their vote to whichever politician they might have the most marginal agreements with, they don't. If Biden wants the more than 100 million Americans who don't vote in elections to actually vote, he needs to give them a reason to.

[Bogie]

When did I say we're not going to show up and vote? I've repeatedly said I'm voting for Biden and that any BernieBro who isn't voting for Biden is insane, but I've also said vote shaming doesn't work.

Again, you're not arguing with anything I'm actually saying.

what I’m saying is that if you don’t want milquetoast candidates, then you have to make your voice loud enough to get them.

you is metaphorical of course. But denying the lack of participation by the progs is disingenuous at best.

you’re arguing that the Dems should nominate people “you” want. I’m saying “you” haven’t ever shown up to vote on a consistent enough basis, historically, to have a bigger say than the centrists who do vote.

But you know what else doesn’t work? People who haven’t participated consistently, demanding ideological purity, loudly threatening to take their ball and go home if they don’t get their way. Then trying to absolve themselves of responsibility

It’s like people calling themselves libertarian because they learned a big word, yet vote straight r every year. You see it with people you know, everywhere. granted this place isn’t nuanced enough that any of the pretenders claim anything but undying loyalty to the party that hates they’re scared of, but I’m sure you have more thoughtful friends that still attempt to provide that illusion.

[Will Hunting]

what I’m saying is that if you don’t want milquetoast candidates, then you have to make your voice loud enough to get them.

you is metaphorical of course. But denying the lack of participation by the progs is disingenuous at best.

you’re arguing that the Dems should nominate people “you” want. I’m saying “you” haven’t ever shown up to vote on a consistent enough basis, historically, to have a bigger say than the centrists who do vote.

But you know what else doesn’t work? People who haven’t participated consistently, demanding ideological purity, loudly threatening to take their ball and go home if they don’t get their way. Then trying to absolve themselves of responsibility

It’s like people calling themselves libertarian because they learned a big word, yet vote straight r every year. You see it with people you know, everywhere. granted this place isn’t nuanced enough that any of the pretenders claim anything but undying loyalty to the party that hates they’re scared of, but I’m sure you have more thoughtful friends that still attempt to provide that illusion.
I've found that since 2016, the "I'm a libertarian but just happen to like the Republican candidate this year and every other year" crowd isn't as vocal (this place used to be filled with them when Obama was president). Their blind love for Trump has caused them to subconsciously drop the libertarian honest broker shtick. I've always found them to be insufferable people though :lol

Here's where we disagree - there's no evidence that suggests most voting Democrats are as centrist as Biden is. The data shows Democratic voters are predominantly people who aren't raging BernieBros and are thus pragmatic enough to show up and vote but want policies materially to the left of where the Democratic Party currently sits. For example, 89% of Democrats want Medicare for all, I sincerely doubt it's the other 11% that make up the electorate. Nevertheless, the DNC has fought harder against a M4A platform than it did against Trump's tax cuts. There's no data to support the notion that the Democratic Party is simply just catering to its centrist electorate. Even Democrats who call themselves moderates want policies further to the left of Biden. Point being, if it was as simple as people who support M4A showing up and voting, the Democratic Party wouldn't be as hostile to it as it currently is. It's only natural for some progressives to think that if happily voting for whoever the Democrat is hasn't gotten people what they want, then making demands and saying their vote is conditional is the next step.

I also don't deny the BernieBros who sat at home bear responsibility for Trump, but my point isn't about who is or isn't responsible. They're never going to vote because people shame them and tell them they're responsible. Like it or not the Democratic Party is going to need to win their support if it wants their vote.

[Chucho]

Is anything I said about black people tripping over their own dick on the way to the ballot box wrong, or was that just a Candace Owens ad hominem?


RE: Candace Owens; does anyone know of any feel-good stories about any beneficiary of any significant funding/donations from the BLM non-profit?

[Spurtacular]

what I’m saying is that if you don’t want milquetoast candidates, then you have to make your voice loud enough to get them.

you is metaphorical of course. But denying the lack of participation by the progs is disingenuous at best.

you’re arguing that the Dems should nominate people “you” want. I’m saying “you” haven’t ever shown up to vote on a consistent enough basis, historically, to have a bigger say than the centrists who do vote.

But you know what else doesn’t work? People who haven’t participated consistently, demanding ideological purity, loudly threatening to take their ball and go home if they don’t get their way. Then trying to absolve themselves of responsibility

It’s like people calling themselves libertarian because they learned a big word, yet vote straight r every year. You see it with people you know, everywhere. granted this place isn’t nuanced enough that any of the pretenders claim anything but undying loyalty to the party that hates they’re scared of, but I’m sure you have more thoughtful friends that still attempt to provide that illusion.

:lol The radioactive levels of butthurt in this post, tbh.

[Spurtacular]

Here's where we disagree - there's no evidence that suggests most voting Democrats are as centrist as Biden is. The data shows Democratic voters are predominantly people who aren't raging BernieBros and are thus pragmatic enough to show up and vote but want policies materially to the left of where the Democratic Party currently sits. For example, 89% of Democrats want Medicare for all, I sincerely doubt it's the other 11% that make up the electorate. Nevertheless, the DNC has fought harder against a M4A platform than it did against Trump's tax cuts.

There's been no fight. Just completely ignoring them and writing them off, tbh.

And :lol that pretty much most or all of the chumpettes fall into that eleven percent "centrist" crowd.

[Trainwreck2100]

meanwhile the other option is trying to literally suppress voters through the legal system
kinda funny how he went from "voter suppression" to "encouraging voter fraud"

[spurraider21]

kinda funny how he went from "voter suppression" to "encouraging voter fraud"
encouraging it in states where he believes it will help him

[Bogie]

:lol The radioactive levels of butthurt in this post, tbh.


seriously dud, you’re too stupid to be involved in this conversation. Go run to the people you think like you. Maybe between all of you, you can formulate a thought.

[RandomGuy]

seriously dud, you’re too stupid to be involved in this conversation. Go run to the people you think like you. Maybe between all of you, you can formulate a thought.

Don't bet on it. That is like asking a bunch of poo-flinging chimps to make a chair. If one can't, there is no reason to think ten of them can.

[RandomGuy]

[thinly written author with a title that the right has every reason to push as part of its voter suppression efforts]

Trump is an existential threat to our democracy, and not supporting Biden has a very real possibility of four more years of a full on fascist wanna be dictator & may very well mean the end of even lip service democracy in the US.

/thread.

[Isitjustme?]

I wonder how much of that is just knowing not even Bush would have fucked the pandemic response up as badly as Trump. I mean it's fucked up Bush was killing people in the middle east for no good reason but Trump is killing us for no good reason, and I guess I don't give a shit about Iraqi lives compared to my own and those around me.

From reagan to W to Trump each generation of GOP gets more grotesque and makes the previous one look better by comparison.

[FrostKing]

From reagan to W to Trump each generation of GOP gets more grotesque and makes the previous one look better by comparison.
That is the United States in a nutshell

[pgardn]

From reagan to W to Trump each generation of GOP gets more grotesque and makes the previous one look better by comparison.

Trump is a quantum leap bad.
He grotesqued himself into another energy level.

[spurraider21]

:lmao

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhCgYWmU8AAm7F1?format=jpg&name=small

[spurraider21]

https://preview.redd.it/w6pt9irb58l51.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&423424fehttps://i.gyazo.com/99a5095959685c82c7476a7e2a08cb15.png

[Capt Bringdown]

Trump is an existential threat to our democracy, and not supporting Biden has a very real possibility of four more years of a full on fascist wanna be dictator & may very well mean the end of even lip service democracy in the US.

/thread.

Statement, not an argument.

There is a reasonable case against Trump, obviously, but existential threat/dictator hysteria, is exactly that, hysteria, and not a serious position.
But for the sake of argument, if Trump is such a historical threat to our democracy, why do the poll numbers not reflect a much bigger lead for Biden?
If this is such a dangerous moment, why is the Democrats response a "no change" candidate, a candidate who has failed to win voters in previous elections, a candidate who is possibly the most conservative Democratic candidate ever?

Trump is the legacy of Democrats such as Obama/Biden. Trump was elected because he offered an alternative (spurious as it was) to voters disenfranchised from what was essentially 4 terms of the Bush administration's forever wars, austerity and widening inequality.

Democrats are incapable of reckoning with why Trump won. Their response has been Russigate, identity politics, voter shaming, and Orange Man Bad. Their best punch against Trump is a redux of the Obama years.

[Bogie]

Op is either a Russian troll or a quixotic Liberal. Petty ridiculous take tbh.

This is the truest post of the thread. But he’s not a liberal. He’s a more articulate hater

[RandomGuy]

Statement, not an argument.

There is a reasonable case against Trump, obviously, but existential threat/dictator hysteria, is exactly that, hysteria, and not a serious position.
But for the sake of argument, if Trump is such a historical threat to our democracy, why do the poll numbers not reflect a much bigger lead for Biden?
If this is such a dangerous moment, why is the Democrats response a "no change" candidate, a candidate who has failed to win voters in previous elections, a candidate who is possibly the most conservative Democratic candidate ever?

Trump is the legacy of Democrats such as Obama/Biden. Trump was elected because he offered an alternative (spurious as it was) to voters disenfranchised from what was essentially 4 terms of the Bush administration's forever wars, austerity and widening inequality.

Democrats are incapable of reckoning with why Trump won. Their response has been Russigate, identity politics, voter shaming, and Orange Man Bad. Their best punch against Trump is a redux of the Obama years.

I can make a case for an existential threat. Hand-waving it away as "hysteria" is itself flawed reasoning. i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule


Appeal to ridicule (also called appeal to mockery, ab absurdo, or the horse laugh[1]) is an informal fallacy which presents an opponent's argument as absurd, ridiculous, or humourous, and therefore not worthy of serious consideration.

Moving on from that fallacy, you move on to yet another.


for the sake of argument, if Trump is such a historical threat to our democracy, why do the poll numbers not reflect a much bigger lead for Biden?

The number of brainwashed cultists that believe something is true (Trump is the only hope to save the country) doesn't mean it is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people"[1]) is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so"

You have indeed given me arguments. You have not given any sound ones.

Is that what you want?

Trump erodes the norms, and seeks to consolidate power in unprecedented ways, demanding loyalty TO HIM over the constitution. Be more than happy to flesh that out in great detail.

Trump isn't really the legacy of anything other than the success of the right-wing media machine in brainwashing morons who can't think for themselves, and the lingering cancer of the Southern Strategy.

Democrats do get to take some of the blame for being waaay to centrist.

[spurraider21]

bernie or busters in 2016: we need to let trump win to pull the DNC left

bernie or busters in 2020: we need to let trump win to pull the DNC left

[Spurtacular]

bernie or busters in 2016: we need to let trump win to pull the DNC left

bernie or busters in 2020: we need to let trump win to pull the DNC left

Bernie bent the knee. His supporters didn't. Come to terms.

[Will Hunting]

bernie or busters in 2016: we need to let trump win to pull the DNC left

bernie or busters in 2020: we need to let trump win to pull the DNC left
The same could be used in the other direction:

DNC establishment supporters in 2016: we need to beat Trump by winning the center and ignoring our base

DNC establishment supporters in 2020: we need to beat Trump by winning the center and ignoring our base

[spurraider21]

The same could be used in the other direction:

DNC establishment supporters in 2016: we need to beat Trump by winning the center and ignoring our base

DNC establishment supporters in 2020: we need to beat Trump by winning the center and ignoring our base
its general election time. options are biden and trump

doing a poopy sit-down protest because your primary choice didnt win didnt work last time (not saying you personally, but to people that withheld their vote)

[Will Hunting]

its general election time. options are biden and trump

doing a poopy sit-down protest because your primary choice didnt win didnt work last time (not saying you personally, but to people that withheld their vote)
Agreed, just saying they’re not the only the group that betting on doing the same thing over again and hoping for a different result.

[spurraider21]

Agreed, just saying they’re not the only the group that betting on doing the same thing over again and hoping for a different result.
dont disagree. you know how i felt during the primaries. it just stuns me that people go through mental gymnastics to convince themselves that biden and trump are literally the same thing just because neither one is a socialist

[Will Hunting]

Progressives should be throwing all of their support towards Yang in 2024 imo. Even conservative incels like Yang.

Biden should pledge to give Yang a cabinet position before the election since he’s probably going to anyway.

[Reck]

Progressives should be throwing all of their support towards Yang in 2024 imo. Even conservative incels like Yang.

Biden should pledge to give Yang a cabinet position before the election since he’s probably going to anyway.

They only like him because he’s a non threat and seems bipartisan now. The minute he gets the nomination and he has to go against the Republican agenda, he’ll get shit on non stop by the same people who say like him.

He’ll lose the conservatives you’re talking about on the issue of abortion alone. :lol

[spurraider21]

1303548726116528128

[Reck]

So This thread aged as well as expected.

Trump not an existential threat but Biden somehow is :lol

[spurraider21]

"biden is literally the same exact thing"

1305653837601046529

[hater]

bernie or busters in 2016: we need to let trump win to pull the DNC left

bernie or busters in 2020: we need to let trump win to pull the DNC left

Hillarystans in 2016: vote for her or well blame the loss.on you

Hillarustans in 2020: vote for joe or well blame the loss on you

[spurraider21]

:lmao yeah a trump and biden administration would just be the same thing anyway because they're both capitalists lolz

the only thing bernie or bust types are good at is losing while holding their chins up believing they've acted nobly

[Will Hunting]

:lmao yeah a trump and biden administration would just be the same thing anyway because they're both capitalists lolz

the only thing bernie or bust types are good at is losing while holding their chins up believing they've acted nobly
Honestly I think RBG's death is going to make a lot of Bernie or Busters realize jesus wtf was I thinking.

[spurraider21]

Honestly I think RBG's death is going to make a lot of Bernie or Busters realize jesus wtf was I thinking.
lets see what IronMexican has to say, or what chapotraphouse, etc, are saying

[Will Hunting]

lets see what IronMexican (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=12289) has to say, or what chapotraphouse, etc, are saying
Biden is running to the left of where Obama ran in 2008 in terms of specific ideas. Public option, higher cap gains tax, climate change reform that involves trillions of dollars in spending, etc. Not to mention he's showed a willingness to support nixing the filibuster. The BernieBros who still hate him are simply irrational.

[spurraider21]

Biden is running to the left of where Obama ran in 2008 in terms of specific ideas. Public option, higher cap gains tax, climate change reform that involves trillions of dollars in spending, etc. Not to mention he's showed a willingness to support nixing the filibuster. The BernieBros who still hate him are simply irrational.
but hes still a capitalist so literally trump

[Reck]

Honestly I think RBG's death is going to make a lot of Bernie or Busters realize jesus wtf was I thinking.

It has AOC fully on board now.

Watched her stream a few hours ago. Time for the faggotry to stop and unite in this one thing. We're all about to fall off the cliff soon.

[Spurtacular]

It has AOC fully on board now.

Watched her stream a few hours ago. Time for the faggotry to stop and unite in this one thing. We're all about to fall off the cliff soon.

Eunuch taking stock in Pelosi's puppet. :lol

[spurraider21]

Eunuch taking stock in Pelosi's puppet. :lol
Pelosi and AOC aren't fans of one another, derp

[Reck]

Pelosi and AOC aren't fans of one another, derp

The collective has been programmed to full effect.

Biden, Pelosi, Schumer and the rest of the rank and file milquiltoast moderate democrats are all now far lefties according to the conservatards.

[Ef-man]

Pelosi and AOC aren't fans of one another, derp

Derp is bothered and cant think straight as he lacks a strong father figure. His old man walked away.

Who can blame his dad for leaving the derp.

Derp lashes about in this forum because of his frail self-esteem is shot. His posts reveal his issues.

Poor derp :cry

[Will Hunting]

The collective has been programmed to full effect.

Biden, Pelosi, Schumer and the rest of the rank and file milquiltoast moderate democrats are all now far lefties according to the conservatards.
Schumer has definitely moved to the left which is a good thing. He never used to talk about shit like abolishing the filibuster.

IMO it’s 50% due to his ass getting kicked by McConnell so many times and 50% due to him being scared of an AOC primary challenge in 2022.

[Spurminator]

The collective has been programmed to full effect.

Biden, Pelosi, Schumer and the rest of the rank and file milquiltoast moderate democrats are all now far lefties according to the conservatards.

My favorite is how Joe Biden, whom the DNC specifically rallied around to prevent a Bernie Sanders nomination, is actually a Bernie Sanders puppet!

[spurraider21]

Schumer has definitely moved to the left which is a good thing. He never used to talk about shit like abolishing the filibuster.

IMO it’s 50% due to his ass getting kicked by McConnell so many times and 50% due to him being scared of an AOC primary challenge in 2022.
Is that really him being “more left” or just being more willing to seize power?

[spurraider21]

My favorite is how Joe Biden, whom the DNC specifically rallied around to prevent a Bernie Sanders nomination, is actually a Bernie Sanders puppet!
I would imagine that the theory there is people aren’t as threatened by old Joe so he’s more electable/palatable but is still going to do the same things Bernie was

[Spurminator]

I would imagine that the theory there is people aren’t as threatened by old Joe so he’s more electable/palatable but is still going to do the same things Bernie was

I would ask the people who think that, why even run Bernie in the first place then?

[Spurtacular]

Pelosi and AOC aren't fans of one another, derp

I doubt that. But it's no matter. That is not the crux of the matter.

[Reck]

I doubt that. But it's no matter. That is not the crux of the matter.

Jesus Christ this post.

Your “I doubt that” would have suffice.

[Will Hunting]

Is that really him being “more left” or just being more willing to seize power?
Whatever it is I’ll take what I can get.

[Spurtacular]

Jesus Christ this post.

Your “I doubt that” would have suffice.

Muhammad, eunuch.

No it wouldn't. You don't understand the basic implication of "that is not the crux of the matter."

You are really testy after being called out your history of perversion. :lol

[Spurtacular]

The collective has been programmed to full effect.

Biden, Pelosi, Schumer and the rest of the rank and file milquiltoast moderate democrats are all now far lefties according to the conservatards.

It depends on how far left is defined. If you're talking the scale in which hardcore socialism if far left, no. They're not giving you Medicare for all. They pretty much told you that you can go fuck yourself. They don't need shit like that ruining their Obamacare scam. And nor is AOC or Bernie. They put no pressure for UBI in a forced shutdown, even.

[Reck]

Muhammad, eunuch.

No it wouldn't. You don't understand the basic implication of "that is not the crux of the matter."

You are really testy after being called out your history of perversion. :lol

You said the same thing 3 times. Lol

[Spurtacular]

You said the same thing 3 times. Lol

Said what three times? You're being lame.

[Reck]

Said what three times? You're being lame.

Doubting. No matter. Not the crux.

They convey the same thing. :lol

[Spurtacular]

Doubting. No matter. Not the crux.

They convey the same thing. :lol

I said it once in the quote you posted.

Your short circuiting tranny brain is getting the best of you.

[ElNono]

lol @ the thought Pelosi and AOC see eye to eye... only in derpworld

[Spurtacular]

lol @ the thought Pelosi and AOC see eye to eye... only in derpworld

They both voted for The Cares Act.

People like you are dupes for believing in face value rhetoric.

[ElNono]

They both voted for The Cares Act.

People like you are dupes for believing in face value rhetoric.

Jim Jordan and Devin Nunes voted with Pelosi in The Cares Act too... do you think they see eye to eye too? :lmao

[SnakeBoy]

bernie or busters in 2016: we need to let trump win to pull the DNC left

bernie or busters in 2020: we need to let trump win to pull the DNC left

They're not wrong. Trump has been the best thing for the justice Democrats. Putting Bidenamala/Pelosi/Schumer in charge and hoping they throw a little bone to the left is naive imo.

[Spurtacular]

Jim Jordan and Devin Nunes voted with Pelosi in The Cares Act too... do you think they see eye to eye too? :lmao

Where's your proof that they voted for it?

[spurraider21]

I would ask the people who think that, why even run Bernie in the first place then?
to sell the ruse... make it seem like bernie-ism lost, defeated by biden.

[ElNono]

Where's your proof that they voted for it?

H.R.748 - CARES Act
116th Congress (2019-2020)
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/748/all-actions

Roll Call
https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2019493

Nunes Republican California Yea
Jordan Republican Ohio Yea

[Spurtacular]

H.R.748 - CARES Act
116th Congress (2019-2020)
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/748/all-actions

Roll Call
https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2019493

Nunes Republican California Yea
Jordan Republican Ohio Yea

Guess they decided to make it official. Initially they told us it was just a verbal vote.
Snuck this in the backdoor, then.

[ElNono]

Guess they decided to make it official. Initially they told us it was just a verbal vote.
Snuck this in the backdoor, then.

But, but, but Gym Jordan and Devin Nunes are buddy buddy with Pelosi! :lol

[ducks]

Biden says 200 million people have died from COVID-19 as campaign gaffes continue

[spurraider21]

But, but, but Gym Jordan and Devin Nunes are buddy buddy with Pelosi! :lol
:lmao

[spurraider21]

lets not forget donald trump signed it into law. guess he's buddy buddy with pelosi and aoc too

[ElNono]

lets not forget donald trump signed it into law. guess he's buddy buddy with pelosi and aoc too

well of course...

[Spurtacular]

But, but, but Gym Jordan and Devin Nunes are buddy buddy with Pelosi! :lol

They're bought off by the same factions. It's juvenile to go by a few insults.

[tholdren]

covid

[ElNono]

They're bought off by the same factions. It's juvenile to go by a few insults.

moar conspiracies :lol

[Spurtacular]

moar conspiracies :lol

Juvenile

[spurraider21]

They're bought off by the same factions. It's juvenile to go by a few insults.
is trump bought off by them too for signing the bill?

[Spurtacular]

is trump bought off by them too for signing the bill?

I made a thread on this, Lite. Chumpettes voted present.

[spurraider21]

I made a thread on this, Lite. Chumpettes voted present.
im not asking if you made a comfort thread, i'm asking if trump is bought off by the same people because he signed the Cares act into law

[Spurtacular]

im not asking if you made a comfort thread, i'm asking if trump is bought off by the same people because he signed the Cares act into law

It wasn't a comfort thread for Chumpettes. It's why they voted present.

[spurraider21]

It wasn't a comfort thread for Chumpettes. It's why they voted present.
so you cant explain away trump being bought off by the same people and being buddy buddy with pelosi and aoc on the Cares act :tu

just comfort references to your comfort thread

[Spurtacular]

so you cant explain away trump being bought off by the same people and being buddy buddy with pelosi and aoc on the Cares act :tu

just comfort references to your comfort thread

I explained it in the thread. I took ownership. You're a johnny come lately that didn't want to stop CARES Act at the time. You basked in the comfort, Lite.

[florige]

Biden says 200 million people have died from COVID-19 as campaign gaffes continue


I'll take Biden's stupid daily gaffes over Trump telling people its ok to kill themselves by drinking Lysol disinfectant

[Winehole23]

I explained it in the thread. I took ownership. You're a johnny come lately that didn't want to stop CARES Act at the time. You basked in the comfort, Lite.The CARES Act is the best official action of the Trump era so far, because it temporarily saved tens of millions of Americans from financial destitution.

Despite being the biggest one time Congressional giveaway of money and power to Wall Street ever, it did good for people.

[benefactor]

Biden says 200 million people have died from COVID-19 as campaign gaffes continue
Trump said herd mentality would end covid. You have no room

[Spurminator]

lol at conservatives who think it's still 2005 and simple misspeaks matter anymore when the current president said 3 million illegal votes were cast and meant it.

[Spurtacular]

The CARES Act is the best official action of the Trump era so far

:lol "Conservative" Blakehole loving the corporate swindle.

[ElNono]

Juvenile

lmao @ conspiratard calling anyone juvenile...

[Ef-man]

lmao @ conspiratard calling anyone juvenile...

:lmao
:cry muh juvenile :cry
:cry muh johnny come lately :cry
:cry muh corporate swindle :cry
:cry muh lite :cry

Where does this derp copy and paste this shit from, as this derp bot is having trouble using them.

Probably does not understand how awkward these phrases are for a basement dweller.
:lol

[Winehole23]

:lol "Conservative" Blakehole loving the corporate swindle.You could ask me what I think of corporate swindling, instead of putting words in my mouth.

You know, talk about it like regular folks. If that bores you, my thoughts on Wall St swindles can be found in any number of threads here going back a dozen years, but two are still on the first page of this forum Stimulus and Bailout and Panama Papers.

[Spurtacular]

You could ask me what I think of corporate swindling, instead of putting words in my mouth.

You know, talk about it like regular folks. If that bores you, my thoughts on Wall St swindles can be found in any number of threads here going back a dozen years, but two are still on the first page of this forum Stimulus and Bailout and Panama Papers.

If you want to argue how you don't know the swindle, go ahead.

[Winehole23]

If you want to argue how you don't know the swindle, go ahead.Tell us all about it, profe. Don't hoard the knowledge.

Or fold without saying anything more about it, your choice.

[boutons_deux]

Biden Is in Denial About the Republican Party

The Democratic nominee insists that he can restore bipartisan comity :lol

on Capitol Hill. GOP senators suggest otherwise.

a vivid rebuke to Biden’s theory of the presidency.

He believes that once Trump is gone, Republicans on Capitol Hill will return to the low-key, courteous mien that Biden remembers (or thinks he remembers) from his long career in the Senate. :lol

Biden’s sincere, long-standing belief in bipartisanship :lol

Biden continues to act, however, as though appeals to propriety can work. :lol

Biden’s heartfelt appeal doesn’t appear to have moved a single senator.

filibuster—a tool that many Democrats want to eliminate, but that

Biden, himself a proceduralist, prefers to keep.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/bidens-illusory-bipartisanship/616431

Biden saw Repug 100% obstructionism under Obama.

WTF is he thinking?

bipartisan comity? :lol

Repugs haven't been bipartisan at least since Gingrich

[Ef-man]

Biden Is in Denial About the Republican Party

The Democratic nominee insists that he can restore bipartisan comity :lol

on Capitol Hill. GOP senators suggest otherwise.

a vivid rebuke to Biden’s theory of the presidency.

He believes that once Trump is gone, Republicans on Capitol Hill will return to the low-key, courteous mien that Biden remembers (or thinks he remembers) from his long career in the Senate. :lol

Biden’s sincere, long-standing belief in bipartisanship :lol

Biden continues to act, however, as though appeals to propriety can work. :lol

Biden’s heartfelt appeal doesn’t appear to have moved a single senator.

filibuster—a tool that many Democrats want to eliminate, but that

Biden, himself a proceduralist, prefers to keep.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/bidens-illusory-bipartisanship/616431

Biden saw Repug 100% obstructionism under Obama.

WTF is he thinking?

bipartisan comity? :lol

Repugs haven't been bipartisan at least since Gingrich



If the senate is flipped, he can claim "bipartisan" all he wants.

[IronMexican]

lets see what IronMexican has to say, or what chapotraphouse, etc, are saying

Its been said. She shouldn't have kept going and is a moron for not retiring over half a decade ago

[IronMexican]

But if you like podcasts, check this one out on H W


https://theintercept.com/2018/12/05/george-h-w-bush-1924-2018-american-war-criminal/

[spurraider21]

Tbh not interested in justifications for enabling a trump reelection

[Will Hunting]

Tbh not interested in justifications for enabling a trump reelection
"We're gonna move the country to the left by working to keep a right wing oligarch in power!"

[Reck]

"We're gonna move the country to the left by working to keep a right wing oligarch in power!"

What's this then?


but yeah Biden is definitely going to pull an Obama with :cry muh country needs to heal :cry

[hater]

"We're gonna move the country to the left by working to keep a right wing oligarch in power!"

Biden fans: "we gonna move the country left by working to elect a different right wing "democratic" oligarch to power!!"

[Reck]

Biden fans: "we gonna move the country left by working to elect a different right wing "democratic" oligarch to power!!"

Biden wants to keep:

Obamacare
Balance the courts
Police from murdering blacks unchecked

Trump wants to get rid of:

Obamacare and replace it with seemingly nothing
Throw the courts into a tailspin that favors him and only him
Give police even more authority to kill without interference

How do you still not get it? Lol

[spurraider21]

"We're gonna move the country to the left by working to keep a right wing oligarch in power!"
i actually understand the working theory. i just think its stupid.

its accelerationism. socdems, but more often outright socialists (not sure where IM falls on that, i'm in the former category), dont believe that we will ever reach the desired outcome through incremental reforms, and think we need a shock event to inspire sweeping changes/revolution. the idea is that under a biden presidency they will become complacent, not make meaningful changes... but its chaos and harm that creates the conditions that make a political "revolution" more likely, and trump represents that necessary danger.

i just dont think it necessarily follows. i just think 4 more years of disastrous trump will feed into "orange man bad" or "republicans bad" and we just need any dem to get in there and fix things. in the meantime, we are putting millions of people in suffering during what is effectively a cruel experiment... so these affluent internet socialists dont mind because they'll be fine (they arent going to lose their healthcare, etc), while millions of people are suffering directly under trump, not to mention irreparable harm to the climate, our political institutions, public trust in the scientific method, etc

[Will Hunting]

What's this then?
The two aren’t mutually exclusive. I can be annoyed about the fact Biden won’t prosecute Trump for anything but still think voting Trump over Biden is stupid.

[Will Hunting]

i actually understand the working theory. i just think its stupid.

its accelerationism. socdems, but more often outright socialists (not sure where IM falls on that, i'm in the former category), dont believe that we will ever reach the desired outcome through incremental reforms, and think we need a shock event to inspire sweeping changes/revolution. the idea is that under a biden presidency they will become complacent, not make meaningful changes... but its chaos and harm that creates the conditions that make a political "revolution" more likely, and trump represents that necessary danger.

i just dont think it necessarily follows. i just think 4 more years of disastrous trump will feed into "orange man bad" or "republicans bad" and we just need any dem to get in there and fix things. in the meantime, we are putting millions of people in suffering during what is effectively a cruel experiment... so these affluent internet socialists dont mind because they'll be fine (they arent going to lose their healthcare, etc), while millions of people are suffering directly under trump, not to mention irreparable harm to the climate, our political institutions, public trust in the scientific method, etc
It’s also not a guaranty that a shock event leads to progressivism or left wing reform.

America got lucky that the Great Depression spawned a (now dismantled) socially democratic government that protected the middle class without destroying the economy the way pure communism would. Germany got hit with the same Great Depression and it led to ultra right wing authoritarianism.

Even with Biden in power we’re already going to have a shock event with tens of millions of people kicked off their healthcare and courts that will agree with every imagineable argument to gut new healthcare reform.

[spurraider21]

It’s also not a guaranty that a shock event leads to progressivism or left wing reform.

America got lucky that the Great Depression spawned a (now dismantled) socially democratic government that protected the middle class without destroying the economy the way pure communism would. Germany got hit with the same Great Depression and it led to ultra right wing authoritarianism.

Even with Biden in power we’re already going to have a shock event with tens of millions of people kicked off their healthcare and courts that will agree with every imagineable argument to gut new healthcare reform.
of course not. and i think the current political climate of the US would be more conducive to people caving more towards a fascist strongman to save us than a socialist revolution

[boutons_deux]

If the senate is flipped, he can claim "bipartisan" all he wants.

too-old-school institutionalist, archaic Joe Biden is for maintaining the filibuster.

Even if Biden gets a Senate majority, it won't be solid, with some Dem Senators voting with the minority Repugs to block major legislation.

[ChumpDumper]

Wait 'til the left finds out that Hunter's company made money!

From people!






















Yeah!

[Will Hunting]

of course not. and i think the current political climate of the US would be more conducive to people caving more towards a fascist strongman to save us than a socialist revolution
Definitely the people who control a senate/electoral college majority.

[baseline bum]

Biden wants to keep:

Obamacare
Balance the courts
Police from murdering blacks unchecked

Trump wants to get rid of:

Obamacare and replace it with seemingly nothing
Throw the courts into a tailspin that favors him and only him
Give police even more authority to kill without interference

How do you still not get it? Lol

Trump also wants to defund Medicare.

[Reck]

1308916191122132992

This thread aged extremely well. :lmao OP

[spurraider21]

Trump also wants to defund Medicare.
yeah but biden doesnt want to de-commodify all housing so he's literally the same thing

these internet socialists arent affected by shit like medicare cuts or mistreatment of immigrants/refugees

[spurraider21]

Trump gives speech at a rally in Minnesota praising the crowd for their great genes, talking about racehorse theory... when earlier in the speech talking about how bad Somali immigrants have been and how he's glad to deport them back.

But Biden isn't behind medicare for all so he's literally the same as trump

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1308817929476222977?s=19

[boutons_deux]

Trump also wants to defund Medicare.

... and Medicaid.

Privatize everything, delivering shitty products so Capitalists can vampire-suck Americans dry.

[spurraider21]

1315739798578044928