[Part II] Who is SpursTalk's favorite 2020 draft prospect heading into October?

[Dejounte]

*****Poll assumes no trades happen during the draft to move up or down***** - TheDrewShow

End of August results were the following:

Previously top five voted prospects

1) Precious Achiuwa - 23 votes
2) Patrick Williams - 19 votes
3) Aleksej Pokusevksi - 18 votes
4) Aaron Nesmith - 15 votes
5) Jalen Smith - 12 votes

All others................... 7 votes

For a total of 94 voters.

For this new poll, I'm adding Kira Lewis Jr. since he has received some love this past month and I guess RJ Hampton since timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8) loves him (barf).

Poll only includes prospects likely to be there at #11.

Will anyone change their vote from last month because they found out more about a different player?

[Dejounte]

My vote last month: Aaron Nesmith

My vote this month: Jalen Smith

[stnick2261]

My vote last month: Patrick Williams
My vote this month: Jalen Smith (specifically to play next to Luka)

My top 3 are: 1) Wiseman, 2) Jalen Smith, 3) Patrick Williams

[JuneJive]

Staying with Jalen.

Hayes is a dream get.

[Kurik]

No Devin Vassell? :lol

I still like Patrick Williams combination of youth and tools the best, warming up to Jalen Smith but not sure I would pick him over Nesmith.

[Dejounte]

No Devin Vassell? :lol

I still like Patrick Williams combination of youth and tools the best, warming up to Jalen Smith but not sure I would pick him over Nesmith.

Devin is top 10 in an aggregated mock using various draft websites, so unlikely to be there at #11 if we go by that. But also, fuck Devin Vassell and his overrated ass. :)

[JuneJive]

I don't think there is much to hate about Vassell.

Yes, his offensive game would probably be mediocre at best except his 3 point shot.

The fact that he looks as a finished product makes him so unappealing because we can probably "see" his ceiling the clearest.

Of course you'd want a prospect that could turn into a All-Star calibre guy.

[Sugus]

I'll stick with Precious for the time being, at least until official combine measurements come out, and we can get a clearer picture of what prospects are truly like. But Smith is a very, very close second. If we could net a second FRP and nab both of them, it'd be a golden draft to me.

[KobesAchilles]

I want a PG or a SF. Hilberton I think was my dream get for the Spurs or Hayes. But I voted for Bey bc it would be nice to have a player with range that is bigger than Forbes so Pop can no longer start Forbes.

[lmbebo]

Don't remember last month's pick. Went jalen smith

[spurspl]

last month: precious
this month: jalen

[Dejounte]

The new Spurs FO have already put out there that they are looking for in the Draft. A Bam Adebayo Archetype, and you only have Precious Achiuwa or your stupid poll who sniffs those criteria. You need to listen more to credible spurs insiders rather than these doinky spurgy dorks, that's why I'm giving you a pass on putting the Demigod Marfan thinner on your poll;obvious troll job.

Getting back to credible draft prospects that meet the Bam mold. There are only 4 guys in the draft that meet that criteria.

1. The wet dream would be James Weisman Jr who is going top 3 but the idiots ahead of the Spurs have done worse and prospects to fall.
2.B Obi Toppin
2.B Oneyka Okongwu
3. The Dark Horse, Preciouse Achiuwa (literally the same guy as Metu but more potential Bam Mold)
4. Shitz and Giggles for those who have to have a Foreign skinny dude but one with potential, and likely picked before 11, Deni Avdijia. I know the spurgy doinks in on twitter, discords, subreddits, and group Text Chains want to prove just how spurgy and doinky they can be by talking about a diseased misshapen Euro who had a few cool passes against 10th graders in 11 games, but Avdijia is what they think thad Marfan dude is.

I think all of those guys are attainable by the organization, some may take luck, trades, ect.

The rest of that list, and all the speculation on threads in this board by various Spurs Talk Eyetester is just laughable. Same Idiots who are leveling themselves into thinking that A BALL is ever gonna be anything but a bust in the NBA telling themselves, "Third Time is a Charm" or someshit.

Of your Bam examples, only Precious is likely to be there at #11.

My poll isn't stupid, dude! If you look at the rest of the draft, there aren't many Bam archetypes. The poll includes players who will likely be chosen in the #11- #20 range.

I have another thread which is specific to the three big men you mentioned:

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287197&p=10271068#post10271068

And don't underestimate Jalen, dude! I feel he will have the same insane work ethic as the player we both love: Keldon Johnson.

[Dejounte]

Forgot to mention in my last post: the poll is assuming the Spurs don't trade up in the draft. Just want to make that clear, my friend! TheDrewShow

[Sugus]

Woah, what's up with Jalen's stock rising up all of a sudden? Felt like a few weeks ago, it was just me and my boy Dejounte filling up his draft post, now he's ST's favorite prospect by a margin? Interesting...

[Dejounte]

Again Dumb teams and FO ahead of the spurs mean that spurs can move up or all in on my list can fall. Smith? Its a One and done world my mans and Sophomores Jr's are 2nd Round if that fodder. Smith probably going early in the 2nd Round. I see the spurs trading up and packaging that 2nd round with Derozan, tbh.

But bro, Toppin is 22 and a sophomore...

We will see!

[Dejounte]

Woah, what's up with Jalen's stock rising up all of a sudden? Felt like a few weeks ago, it was just me and my boy Dejounte filling up his draft post, now he's ST's favorite prospect by a margin? Interesting...

These things even out quick lol, I think some love for the other prospects is coming...

[spurspl]

Woah, what's up with Jalen's stock rising up all of a sudden? Felt like a few weeks ago, it was just me and my boy Dejounte (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=51342) filling up his draft post, now he's ST's favorite prospect by a margin? Interesting...

i was sayin bout jalen way before his draft post ;)

[Dejounte]

i was sayin bout jalen way before his draft post ;)

Was it you? I responded early on to someone liking Jalen by saying I thought he was a Serge Ibaka clone.... Boy, was I wrong after I took time to watch hours and hours of Jalen.

[stnick2261]

Woah, what's up with Jalen's stock rising up all of a sudden? Felt like a few weeks ago, it was just me and my boy Dejounte (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=51342) filling up his draft post, now he's ST's favorite prospect by a margin? Interesting...

I don't think Jalen will be the best player available at draft night. However, I'm getting excited about the (supposed) improvement of Luka and I like the comments in his thread about Jalen being a perfect fit next to him.

[Sugus]

i was sayin bout jalen way before his draft post ;)

Great to hear. Quite a comfy place we got on Jalen Island. Or Island Smith...? I gotta work on the name.


I don't think Jalen will be the best player available at draft night. However, I'm getting excited about the (supposed) improvement of Luka and I like the comments in his thread about Jalen being a perfect fit next to him.

Yeah, I was one of those. But in reality, and this is a strength for Smith, he doesn't even need Luka to pan out in order to be a good selection. With the way the league has been trending, he's perfectly equipped to play both the 5 next to Luka, or the 4 next to LMA for example against bigger teams, giving you the advantage of being able to put two bigs on the court without sacrificing spacing whatsoever, like you'd have to with Poeltl+LMA which is next to unplayable, in part also because neither have good lateral mobility nor quickness. Jalen might not have a superstar ceiling, but he's damn versatile, a sight for sore eyes with the Spurs and their bunch of one-dimensional players.

[spurspl]

Was it you? I responded early on to someone liking Jalen by saying I thought he was a Serge Ibaka clone.... Boy, was I wrong after I took time to watch hours and hours of Jalen.

im not 100% sure if it was a direct respond to my post about jalen but i do remember this comparison so its very likely

[Dejounte]

Brief overview of what I believe each prospect has going for them (ONLY POSITIVES):

Precious Achuiwa: A strong brute, won't be backed down in the post easily. Very athletic. Great wingspan (if pre-combine measurements are accurate). He is quick laterally, especially for a big. Tough, and provides energy. Gym rat, appears to have really low body fat percentage.

Patrick Williams: One of the youngest prospects in the draft. Has a body type that is coveted in the league. Flashes of talent in almost every area: passing, wing defense, weakside defense, shooting.

Aleksej Pokusevksi: One of the youngest prospects in the draft. Quick for a player his height. Has guard skills (handles, passing, and shooting) in a center body. Has a nose for rebounding and blocking shots in the interior.

Aaron Nesmith: One of the best shooters in the draft. Moves extremely well off-the-ball. Gym rat, appears to have really low body fat percentage.

Jalen Smith: Top player on a winning team in college. Makes momentum changing plays to win games. Shows improvement year to year which is a sign of his work ethic. Tough, will get physical on offense. Has ability to move off the ball on the perimeter to get open for a 3 like a guard, navigating screens. Can shoot off the dribble, which is rare for a big man. Good interior defense, and has good shot blocking instincts.

Saddiq Bey: Displayed high 3 point percentage shooting in college. Has decent size.

Isaiah Stewart: Gets doubled, tripled in the post - excellent interior scorer. Great wingspan (if pre-combine measurements are accurate). Holds his own and in some ways, dominates matchups against top big men of the draft (Okongwu, Wiseman).

Tyler Bey: High character. DPOY in his conference in college. Good mid-range shooter, displays decent footwork in post.

Kira Lewis Jr.: Game changing speed, which allows him to score in ways most others can't. Good vision, finds teammates in transition.

RJ Hampton: Good size for a guard. Explosive first step.

Again, **only positives**. I feel like most people only read positives about a player and get carried away with how good they think a prospect is.

[DAF86]

I don't think there is much to hate about Vassell.

Yes, his offensive game would probably be mediocre at best except his 3 point shot.

The fact that he looks as a finished product makes him so unappealing because we can probably "see" his ceiling the clearest.

Of course you'd want a prospect that could turn into a All-Star calibre guy.

You voted for Smith and he's pretty similar to Vassell in terms of having a very defined, low, role playing ceiling, tbh. In fact, I would argue Smith is more of a finished product than Vassell, tbh.

[Chinook]

My vote last month: Aaron Nesmith

My vote this month: Jalen Smith

Yeah. Still 1-2 in my mind, and I'd be happy getting both in a Murray trade. But I do think I've seen enough good from Smith to slightly prefer him this time around.

[spurspl]

Yeah. Still 1-2 in my mind, and I'd be happy getting both in a Murray trade. But I do think I've seen enough good from Smith to slightly prefer him this time around.

id love to get haliburton in a murrays trade. Especially when he dropped in a mock drafts. But neismith is my second favorite.

[JuneJive]

You voted for Smith and he's pretty similar to Vassell in terms of having a very defined, low, role playing ceiling, tbh. In fact, I would argue Smith is more of a finished product than Vassell, tbh.

I was just trying to reason why some guys here don't like him.

I don't mind him at #11, but I prefer Jalen due to him being a frontcourt player with a modern skillset.

He must improve his lateral movement and passing ability.
But the most vital part is his PnR defense.
He projects as a drop big exclusively, but his ceiling dependa on the progress he makes on that end.

With that I'd take him over Vassell ( a 3 & D wing with some shot creation ) simply because I think a rim protector with a jumper and a solid inside game who won't be clueless on the perimeter is more valuable than a wing player with similar skills.

A lot of ifs, I know.

[MultiTroll]

Tacko Falls younger brother.

Nacho Fall.

[tbdog]

Yeah. Still 1-2 in my mind, and I'd be happy getting both in a Murray trade. But I do think I've seen enough good from Smith to slightly prefer him this time around.

You are really giving up on Murray.

[PhantomDashCam]

If we, (the Spurs), genuinely believe a star can be developed out of anyone with the right tools, talent and character -I would take a long look at Jaden McDaniels. My highest ceiling, swing for the fences pick.

If we playing it safe, think Kira Lewis would be my guy but worry what that means for DJ or White and their future with the team.

[SpursDynasty85]

You are really giving up on Murray.

Moving him for a lottery pick would be pretty good value considering he will cost $16m/yr from now on and he still doesn't look ready.

[Chinook]

You are really giving up on Murray.

Let's assume the Spurs are able to draft Smith and 'smith with their two picks (natural and Murray trade) and get Reed at 41.

The roster would look like this:

White, Mills, Weatherspoon
Johnson, Nesmith
DeRozan, Walker
Lyles, Gay, Samanic, Reed
Aldridge, Poeltl, Smith

They could draft a guard instead of Reed or sign Campazzo to take over running the second unit. It just seems a good mix of talent with room to grow and remain flexible with the crazy cap projections.

[pad300]

Of the options, at 11, I would take Poku still. He's the only one of the options on the list that has a real chance of being a special player, which is what we need.

[rankingtear]

Last Month: Williams , This Month: Williams
Top 3: Hayes, Williams, Kira

Double down on possible creators.

[FutureMan]

Vassell should easily be on this list. Out of the hundred or so drafts that are out there he lands to the Spurs (or past) in almost half.

Tyler Bey is typically in the 20’s so that’s interesting too.

I will say that Smith is an interesting prospect but I’d prefer to somehow get another pick in the late teens to get him rather than using 11 on him.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Again, **only positives**. I feel like most people only read positives about a player and get carried away with how good they think a prospect is.


Heh. That's the damn truth. I was reading a mock earlier this evening, and they were talking about Cassius Winston, like he was some overlooked gem. Somebody was obviously doing sorts on stats databases and he shook out.

Boy doesn't play a lick of defense - like none. Looks good on paper, though.

[rankingtear]

Was it you? I responded early on to someone liking Jalen by saying I thought he was a Serge Ibaka clone.... Boy, was I wrong after I took time to watch hours and hours of Jalen.

That was me, i cooled off on him a bit because of the playmaking. But he is still a very unicorn like player, 10 reb and 2.4 blk guy whose getting run off screens and hand offs. His intangibles are spurs material.

[Drom John]

Last month: Haliburton
This month: Haliburton

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I wonder how much this place will blow up if the Spurs go rogue and draft someone who hasn't been considered on here.

And then follow that with a multi-year extension for DDR.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Williams and Smith.

Let's get 'em both.

[rjv]

in light of what the modern day NBA big has become, and the uncertain future of LMA, i have to go with smith.

[Dejounte]

Precious lost all his fans lmao wtf

[Sugus]

Precious lost all his fans lmao wtf

It's lonely out here, I tell you. I especially thought his recent comments praising the Spurs would garner him some views, but he's off the radar now. We'll see how voting goes on Part III...

[R. DeMurre]

Getting back to credible draft prospects that meet the Bam mold. There are only 4 guys in the draft that meet that criteria.

1. The wet dream would be James Weisman Jr who is going top 3 but the idiots ahead of the Spurs have done worse and prospects to fall.
2.B Obi Toppin


Toppin is nothing like Bam. Bam had defensive stats comparable to Giannis this season-- he can guard the paint and the perimeter. Toppin can't guard either. Toppin was a poor defender in college against a very weak strength of schedule. His most frequent comp is Amare Stoudamire-- an all offense, no defense player his whole career.

[R. DeMurre]

https://youtu.be/vHxUiOd5RA8


Meaningless highlight reels against weak competition. Among the top PF draft candidates, he has the lowest block numbers by far: http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=onyeka-okongwu--obi-toppin--aleksej-pokusevski--jalen-smith--paul-reed

[R. DeMurre]

Now I know you're a Doink, been on this gutter of a message board doing crap like you've just done for over a Decade but what exactly is your issue or malfunction?

1. Of the people in the Draft who fit a "Bam MOLD"(doesn't mean he is bam... you do get that) toppin was one of 5 guys I listed.
2. Why would you not want the spurs to Develop an Amarie Stoudemire(your words not mine) type talent?
You don't think that the spurs vaunted developmental machine(which dudes like you mistakenly give credit to poop for) couldn't get an Improved Amare Stoudemire 2.0 type player out of the Toppin clay? (Amare, Rookie of the year, six time all star, 5 time all NBA and contending for MVP of league, Stoudemire...again your words not mine.)

Dont bother to try and write back, I wont be reading anymore of your spergy doinky drivel.

Your schtick is tiresome.

[hooperflash]

One thing is for sure, the Spurs are gonna draft a good one.

[rankingtear]

1310986496837586949

Is the hype train still running?

[BackHome]

Can’t remember the article but a several months ago when Spurs were looking at 19th pick they were reports that Spurs were very interested in Precious.

[wildbill2u]

There ought to be a column for best available player. I'm not sure drafting for a position need is better than best available, unless the fit is so apparent as to be a lock. However, I voted for Poku just because of the potential upside. Spurs never do anything wild, well hardly ever, during the Pop reign. Even some of the players we took who were a stretch have done pretty well after going to other teams, eg Boban and Jamychal Green and the Latvian guy.

[Dejounte]

There ought to be a column for best available player. I'm not sure drafting for a position need is better than best available, unless the fit is so apparent as to be a lock. However, I voted for Poku just because of the potential upside. Spurs never do anything wild, well hardly ever, during the Pop reign. Even some of the players we took who were a stretch have done pretty well after going to other teams, eg Boban and Jamychal Green and the Latvian guy.

By BPA, if you mean if a player drops, see below:

Sometimes a player who falls and was consistently mocked in the top 10 isn't the best player available. It's foolishness and the biggest lie when it comes to the draft. If it was true, we wouldn't have a 30% success rate for players drafted in the top 10. Proof is in the pudding and too many casuals fall for this shit.

[BackHome]

Keldon was mocked in top 10 early on and for what ever reason dropped like a rock not that I am complaining :king

[look_at_g_shred]

Patrick
Nesmith
Lewis Jr
Smith

[BackHome]

Smith
Patrick
Poku
Kira

[rankingtear]

From NBASupes, hawks alleged insider:


I am hearing it's in this order as well. Okoro is the Hawks top guy. Deni is 2nd and Obi is 3rd. I am hearing they are doing their homework on Okongwu and Smith. A lot of people would be shocked Smith at 4 but I am not. He's a 3&D 5 who can play interchangeablely at the 4. NY, Washington, Phoenix, San Antonio, Sacramento and Boston are all high on him and that's just in the lottery. He is the big mover.

Smith's stock is soaring.

[XDT76]

From NBASupes, hawks alleged insider:



Smith's stock is soaring.

Looks like he won't be there at 11.

[BackHome]

I think he will be there still a lot of time before draft more guys will rise and fall like every draft year.

[Dejounte]

From NBASupes, hawks alleged insider:



Smith's stock is soaring.

Not shocking. I fucking called it (Smith being pretty fucking good and could be a riser when he was being mocked at #20) before anyone. Players rise and players fall. To base all your analysis on mock drafts is idiotic. I suggest constantly to anyone to watch the player, and not rely on scouting reports.

[TD 21]

Smith looks like another high floor/low ceiling type.

His passing and lateral quickness probably aren't good enough to primarily play 4, which would render him best suited to primarily playing 5, where he'll likely be giving up some on the glass/in the post in certain matchups. That archetype is a third big.

That's fine, but it'd be difficult to pass up a high floor/low ceiling wing for that.

[Sugus]

Smith looks like another high floor/low ceiling type.

His passing and lateral quickness probably aren't good enough to primarily play 4, which would render him best suited to primarily playing 5, where he'll likely be giving up some on the glass/in the post in certain matchups. That archetype is a third big.

That's fine, but it'd be difficult to pass up a high floor/low ceiling wing for that.

Why though? I'd much rather have a high floor/low ceiling big, than a wing of the same type, tbh. Considering the importance and relevance of wings to the modern NBA, and how the big man has been progressively fading out (unless you're an AD kind of big, which doesn't fit this mold), if you gave me the chance of having a high-ceiling prospect, I would for sure have it be a wing rather than a big. In fact, I've been saying for a while the Spurs have to select a big in this draft, then tank out the season and shoot for the stars with a lottery pick in the loaded '21 draft, which just so happens to have major wing prospects. Doesn't make sense to pick a low-ceiling wing now and then tank for one the very next season.

E: and beyond that, I'm not really sold on the idea that Smith is low-ceiling, he's got a lot of athletic upside and a high BBIQ with which he could develop his passing game, not to mention his shooting. Herro was considered a high-floor, low ceiling prospect and now he's looking like a major future piece for the Heat.

[Dejounte]

Smith looks like another high floor/low ceiling type.

His passing and lateral quickness probably aren't good enough to primarily play 4, which would render him best suited to primarily playing 5, where he'll likely be giving up some on the glass/in the post in certain matchups. That archetype is a third big.

That's fine, but it'd be difficult to pass up a high floor/low ceiling wing for that.

A "third big" becomes a "first big" when you consider what the Spurs have:

Aldridge and his uncertain future with the Spurs. Age affecting his speed (can he keep up anymore?) and injury concerns (is the shoulder injury a sign of things to come?)

Lyles and his net zero contribution. Barely any upside with Lyles and is way too soft to be counted on in the playoffs.

Poetl and his uncertain future with the Spurs. Provides little to nothing on offense.

And somehow Jalen can't topple any of these guys and is labeled a "third big"? Why? Because we really believe he can't defend the likes of MPJ, Jerami Grant, Morris brothers, Millsaps, Covingtons, and so forth? Because he was played out of position in college at 5, so we have to cement his position at 5? He could very well be a 5, but his supposed lack of lateral quickness is being very overstated on here. It's as if having unrealistic expectations for any big now and how they must all be able to be fucking quick laterally... Ignoring the fact that you have Jokic out there doing a sufficient job switching with his slow lateral speed.

As far as "low ceiling" goes, if he averages or flashes games anywhere near 15 pts / 10 rebs, this absurd expectation will be all but forgotten.

[Sugus]

A "third big" becomes a "first big" when you consider what the Spurs have:

Aldridge and his uncertain future with the Spurs. Age affecting his speed (can he keep up anymore?) and injury concerns (is the shoulder injury a sign of things to come?)

Lyles and his net zero contribution. Barely any upside with Lyles and is way too soft to be counted on in the playoffs.

Poetl and his uncertain future with the Spurs. Provides little to nothing on offense.

And somehow Jalen can't topple any of these guys and is labeled a "third big"? Why? Because we really believe he can't defend the likes of MPJ, Jerami Grant, Morris brothers, Millsaps, Covingtons, and so forth? Because he was played out of position in college at 5, so we have to cement his position at 5? He could very well be a 5, but his supposed lack of lateral quickness is being very overstated on here. It's as if having unrealistic expectations for any big now and how they must all be able to be fucking quick laterally... Ignoring the fact that you have Jokic out there doing a sufficient job switching with his slow lateral speed.

As far as "low ceiling" goes, if he averages or flashes games anywhere near 15 pts / 10 rebs, this absurd expectation will be all but forgotten.

Beat ya to it :downspin:

[Dejounte]

There were questions about Keldon's lateral speed early on (and maybe even now) which made people put a lower cap on his ceiling but that cap is higher now as soon as people saw the intangibles, the physicality, and toughness he brings. Keldon's athleticism didn't blow you away, and for some reason, people put a lot of stock into that when judging prospects. There's so much more, and for Jalen, it's his basketball IQ and his toughness that makes him a worthy pick in my eyes. Lord knows we need both of those things desperately on the Spurs.

[XDT76]

Smith looks like another high floor/low ceiling type.

His passing and lateral quickness probably aren't good enough to primarily play 4, which would render him best suited to primarily playing 5, where he'll likely be giving up some on the glass/in the post in certain matchups. That archetype is a third big.

That's fine, but it'd be difficult to pass up a high floor/low ceiling wing for that.

His low ceiling seems to be higher than any of our current bigs on the roster.

[wildbill2u]

By BPA, if you mean if a player drops, see below:

Sometimes a player who falls and was consistently mocked in the top 10 isn't the best player available. It's foolishness and the biggest lie when it comes to the draft. If it was true, we wouldn't have a 30% success rate for players drafted in the top 10. Proof is in the pudding and too many casuals fall for this shit.

Not at all. I want the FO and coaches to determine their rating of the players. If they think the best player available is a player from nowhereistan that no one is looking at, I'll hope that they are finding another gem in the lower rungs of the draft and can't wait to get him. Unlikely scenario, but that's what I meant to say. I don't care what other organizations think about the best player available.

[TD 21]

Why though? I'd much rather have a high floor/low ceiling big, than a wing of the same type, tbh. Considering the importance and relevance of wings to the modern NBA, and how the big man has been progressively fading out (unless you're an AD kind of big, which doesn't fit this mold), if you gave me the chance of having a high-ceiling prospect, I would for sure have it be a wing rather than a big. In fact, I've been saying for a while the Spurs have to select a big in this draft, then tank out the season and shoot for the stars with a lottery pick in the loaded '21 draft, which just so happens to have major wing prospects. Doesn't make sense to pick a low-ceiling wing now and then tank for one the very next season.

E: and beyond that, I'm not really sold on the idea that Smith is low-ceiling, he's got a lot of athletic upside and a high BBIQ with which he could develop his passing game, not to mention his shooting. Herro was considered a high-floor, low ceiling prospect and now he's looking like a major future piece for the Heat.

In either scenario, leaning wing is probably more prudent. Of course, these decisions have to be made on a case by case basis though.

It'd be foolish to project ahead a year in terms of drafting for a certain position now because of what might happen then.

Herro is a three level scorer and play maker. Smith isn't becoming that and he doesn't really have a true defensive position. As we've seen with Bertans, it's difficult for that type to be a starter.



A "third big" becomes a "first big" when you consider what the Spurs have:

Aldridge and his uncertain future with the Spurs. Age affecting his speed (can he keep up anymore?) and injury concerns (is the shoulder injury a sign of things to come?)

Lyles and his net zero contribution. Barely any upside with Lyles and is way too soft to be counted on in the playoffs.

Poetl and his uncertain future with the Spurs. Provides little to nothing on offense.

And somehow Jalen can't topple any of these guys and is labeled a "third big"? Why? Because we really believe he can't defend the likes of MPJ, Jerami Grant, Morris brothers, Millsaps, Covingtons, and so forth? Because he was played out of position in college at 5, so we have to cement his position at 5? He could very well be a 5, but his supposed lack of lateral quickness is being very overstated on here. It's as if having unrealistic expectations for any big now and how they must all be able to be fucking quick laterally... Ignoring the fact that you have Jokic out there doing a sufficient job switching with his slow lateral speed.

As far as "low ceiling" goes, if he averages or flashes games anywhere near 15 pts / 10 rebs, this absurd expectation will be all but forgotten.

Things don't work like that. Sports, like life, are fluid, not static. I'm speaking to Smith's ideal projected role, as in on a good team, this is where he'd likely slot in.

He can probably defend most of those types, but they'd probably need an elite passing 5 to pull it off (especially with Murray, for now, entrenched). The bigger question is, can he defend the big wing starting 4's.

Jokic is a horrible comparison. He's a transcendent offensive player and an excellent rebounder, so you'll live with his defensive limitations (he also has a clear defensive position, at least).

Counting stats without context are irrelevant and "this absurd expectation" is probably the consensus. Doesn't mean he can't surpass it, but you don't see many starting 4's like him today.



His low ceiling seems to be higher than any of our current bigs on the roster.

As if that's a standard for selecting someone 11th.

[Dejounte]

In either scenario, leaning wing is probably more prudent. Of course, these decisions have to be made on a case by case basis though.

It'd be foolish to project ahead a year in terms of drafting for a certain position now because of what might happen then.

Herro is a three level scorer and play maker. Smith isn't becoming that and he doesn't really have a true defensive position. As we've seen with Bertans, it's difficult for that type to be a starter.




Things don't work like that. Sports, like life, are fluid, not static. I'm speaking to Smith's ideal projected role, as in on a good team, this is where he'd likely slot in.

He can probably defend most of those types, but they'd probably need an elite passing 5 to pull it off (especially with Murray, for now, entrenched). The bigger question is, can he defend the big wing starting 4's.

Jokic is a horrible comparison. He's a transcendent offensive player and an excellent rebounder, so you'll live with his defensive limitations (he also has a clear defensive position, at least).

Counting stats without context are irrelevant and "this absurd expectation" is probably the consensus. Doesn't mean he can't surpass it, but you don't see many starting 4's like him today.




As if that's a standard for selecting someone 11th.

Why is passing a required skill from the 4 position all of a sudden? Is it because we're forecasting a bit much about the type of system this team needs to play, making it more static and not fluid? Guarding big wing 4's isn't a requirement either, the Spurs have had their liabilities in the past and it's something they game plan around-- not build their roster for it. Regardless, it's still early and not enough indication that Jalen would be unable to so, just like all believed that Keldon had not enough lateral speed to defend the likes of Reddick and Westbrook. And though you may not believe it yet, Jalen has more qualities going for him to make up for any deficiencies.

[Dejounte]

The truth is in one of your last sentences: "you don't see many starting 4's like him today". This should be seen in a positive light if he gets drafted, giving the Spurs an edge using a player other teams are not accustomed to playing against... And not the other way around. When you have a big who has potential to shoot lights out from anywhere AND be physical in the inside, that's a tough defensive assignment.

[Sugus]

In either scenario, leaning wing is probably more prudent. Of course, these decisions have to be made on a case by case basis though.

Why is that though? Please explain. Is "leaning wing" for every single draft pick "more prudent"? What is "prudent" anyways? Sounds like a lot of buzzwords... I repeat - if faced with the option to have only one low-ceiling, and one high-ceiling prospect, the way the league is trending is such that you'd prefer "leaning wing" for the high-ceiling prospect and choose the big with the lower ceiling, since the modern game is fueled by big wings and modern big men are either disappearing, shrinking in average size, getting played off the floor, or can't even carry their team to the playoffs (like AD). Even star big men aren't as game-changing as they were. Why would you select 2 wings, in different drafts, given the Spurs' glaring hole at the 4 and 5?

Even if you think Luka is star-bound, which is far from a given, he's not ready yet, and the next body at PF is either the corpse of Rudy Gay, or bench-piece-made-starter Lyles. The C position is a similar problem for us, with Poeltl hardly being a serviceable starter and the next man up being third-stringer Eubanks (I'm assuming the Spurs will deal LMA in the off-season). There are simply no bigs in the pipeline at the moment. Meanwhile, it's looking like we've drafted our SF of the future already in Keldon, with both Lonnie and DeMar being able to play the 3 as well when required. And yes, you can use FA to fill current roster holes, I know this - it still doesn't mean the Spurs should "lean wing" in both drafts, or close to it. I don't see your reasoning at all.


It'd be foolish to project ahead a year in terms of drafting for a certain position now because of what might happen then.

I agree to an extent. It doesn't change my point though, that there seems to be no star-struck wings or bigs at #11 in this draft (except maybe Poku, for those who believe in his hype), so the Spurs would be better served to try and get a big to develop and then go for a wing in next years' draft. Whether they suck next season or not, the overall level of the '21-22 draft is such that the Spurs *have* to take that into account. Each draft doesn't exist in a vacuum, and teams for sure plan long-term for these kinds of things.


Herro is a three level scorer and play maker. Smith isn't becoming that and he doesn't really have a true defensive position. As we've seen with Bertans, it's difficult for that type to be a starter.

Bertans is HARDLY comparable to Smith, dude. He was an absolute defensive liability, his only real skill was shooting - couldn't dribble, couldn't pass, couldn't post up, couldn't rebound. Yes, one-dimensional shooters who are sieves on D are hard to start on a team, that's not news. But that isn't Smith's archetype at all. Jalen could perfectly develop into a three-level scorer - he's already a threat from deep, and the post/rim area. With the midrange becoming increasingly depreciated, I'm not even sure I want him to become that, tbh... But he still absolutely has a place on the floor, and what's that about "doesn't really have a true defensive position"? What about his position isn't clear - have you watched a single game of his...? He's a PF first and foremost, and he's been matching up great with college PFs and even C's, like his game against Tillman. I could perfectly see him defending both PFs and Cs, unless the opposing C is an Embiid-Jokic type, in which case you trot out Smith at PF and call it a day.


The bigger question is, can he defend the big wing starting 4's.

Ok, now I'm really starting to doubt whether you've watched some tape on this guy. :lol

[TD 21]

Why is passing a required skill from the 4 position all of a sudden? Is it because we're forecasting a bit much about the type of system this team needs to play, making it more static and not fluid? Guarding big wing 4's isn't a requirement either, the Spurs have had their liabilities in the past and it's something they game plan around-- not build their roster for it. Regardless, it's still early and not enough indication that Jalen would be unable to so, just like all believed that Keldon had not enough lateral speed to defend the likes of Reddick and Westbrook. And though you may not believe it yet, Jalen has more qualities going for him to make up for any deficiencies.



The truth is in one of your last sentences: "you don't see many starting 4's like him today". This should be seen in a positive light if he gets drafted, giving the Spurs an edge using a player other teams are not accustomed to playing against... And not the other way around. When you have a big who has potential to shoot lights out from anywhere AND be physical in the inside, that's a tough defensive assignment.

Because the game is more geared towards skill than ever and you can't play two sub par passing bigs (with a lack of shooting/play making) and expect to have a functional offense. The Lakers make it work for the first 6 minutes of each half, but that's with a top 2 player ever and arguably the top 2 current players.

It is a requirement because many 4's now are really just converted 3's. If he can't defend them on the perimeter, then what? Forget about Lyles or many things recently. They're stopgap measures from a desperate/stubborn organization that was trying to cling to a streak/reputation.

It can be a positive if it's a mismatch nightmare like Davis. Smith isn't going to bully or beat big wing 4's up in the post though.



Why is that though? Please explain. Is "leaning wing" for every single draft pick "more prudent"? What is "prudent" anyways? Sounds like a lot of buzzwords... I repeat - if faced with the option to have only one low-ceiling, and one high-ceiling prospect, the way the league is trending is such that you'd prefer "leaning wing" for the high-ceiling prospect and choose the big with the lower ceiling, since the modern game is fueled by big wings and modern big men are either disappearing, shrinking in average size, getting played off the floor, or can't even carry their team to the playoffs (like AD). Even star big men aren't as game-changing as they were. Why would you select 2 wings, in different drafts, given the Spurs' glaring hole at the 4 and 5?

Even if you think Luka is star-bound, which is far from a given, he's not ready yet, and the next body at PF is either the corpse of Rudy Gay, or bench-piece-made-starter Lyles. The C position is a similar problem for us, with Poeltl hardly being a serviceable starter and the next man up being third-stringer Eubanks (I'm assuming the Spurs will deal LMA in the off-season). There are simply no bigs in the pipeline at the moment. Meanwhile, it's looking like we've drafted our SF of the future already in Keldon, with both Lonnie and DeMar being able to play the 3 as well when required. And yes, you can use FA to fill current roster holes, I know this - it still doesn't mean the Spurs should "lean wing" in both drafts, or close to it. I don't see your reasoning at all.



I agree to an extent. It doesn't change my point though, that there seems to be no star-struck wings or bigs at #11 in this draft (except maybe Poku, for those who believe in his hype), so the Spurs would be better served to try and get a big to develop and then go for a wing in next years' draft. Whether they suck next season or not, the overall level of the '21-22 draft is such that the Spurs *have* to take that into account. Each draft doesn't exist in a vacuum, and teams for sure plan long-term for these kinds of things.



Bertans is HARDLY comparable to Smith, dude. He was an absolute defensive liability, his only real skill was shooting - couldn't dribble, couldn't pass, couldn't post up, couldn't rebound. Yes, one-dimensional shooters who are sieves on D are hard to start on a team, that's not news. But that isn't Smith's archetype at all. Jalen could perfectly develop into a three-level scorer - he's already a threat from deep, and the post/rim area. With the midrange becoming increasingly depreciated, I'm not even sure I want him to become that, tbh... But he still absolutely has a place on the floor, and what's that about "doesn't really have a true defensive position"? What about his position isn't clear - have you watched a single game of his...? He's a PF first and foremost, and he's been matching up great with college PFs and even C's, like his game against Tillman. I could perfectly see him defending both PFs and Cs, unless the opposing C is an Embiid-Jokic type, in which case you trot out Smith at PF and call it a day.



Ok, now I'm really starting to doubt whether you've watched some tape on this guy. :lol

Because they generally occupy 3 of 5 positions in today's league and are more malleable. It's also easier to find credible center play for cheap. The biggest positional need is big wing, but the biggest need period is elite - high end talent.

I'm not saying don't select Smith at any cost, I'm saying all things being relatively equal, I'd have a tough time passing up a high floor wing. Drafting for position is never intelligent, less so projecting a year in advance. Always draft for value because that can be traded to plug other holes down the road.

Poor reading comprehension (and Bertans has better ball handling/passing skills than you give him credit for). It's not about a direct comparison, it's about the simple fact that neither has a defined defensive position and usually when that's the case players top out as sub starters because it's easier to dictate matchups off the bench.

[Dejounte]

Because the game is more geared towards skill than ever and you can't play two sub par passing bigs (with a lack of shooting/play making) and expect to have a functional offense. The Lakers make it work for the first 6 minutes of each half, but that's with a top 2 player ever and arguably the top 2 current players.

It is a requirement because many 4's now are really just converted 3's. If he can't defend them on the perimeter, then what? Forget about Lyles or many things recently. They're stopgap measures from a desperate/stubborn organization that was trying to cling to a streak/reputation.

It can be a positive if it's a mismatch nightmare like Davis. Smith isn't going to bully or beat big wing 4's up in the post though.




Because they generally occupy 3 of 5 positions in today's league and are more malleable. It's also easier to find credible center play for cheap. The biggest positional need is big wing, but the biggest need period is elite - high end talent.

I'm not saying don't select Smith at any cost, I'm saying all things being relatively equal, I'd have a tough time passing up a high floor wing. Drafting for position is never intelligent, less so projecting a year in advance. Always draft for value because that can be traded to plug other holes down the road.

Poor reading comprehension (and Bertans has better ball handling/passing skills than you give him credit for). It's not about a direct comparison, it's about the simple fact that neither has a defined defensive position and usually when that's the case players top out as sub starters because it's easier to dictate matchups off the bench.

When you say "many", it means majority.

“3 converted fours”:
Pascal Siakam
Danilo Gallinari
Carmelo Anthony
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Paul George
DeAndre Hunter or Cam Reddish? Not sure which one plays PF
Jayson Tatum

Regular big (or simply *not* 3’s) playing the four:
Joe Ingles
Juan Hernangómez
Domantas Sabonis
Lauri Markkanen
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Dario Saric
Nemanja Bjelica
Bam Adebayo
Aaron Gordon
P.J. Washington
Davis Bertans or Rui Hachimura
Kristap Porzingas
Jaren Jackson Jr
Trey Lyles
Zion Williamson
Al Horford
Julius Randle
Jerami Grant, Paul Millsap, or MPJ

These are all taken from basketballreference.com. I looked at minutes played, the depth chart, and which players had started.

It is a myth. This isn't "many". The number of "3 converted 4's" do not outnumber the standard 4's. It is a myth. And most of the players listed above have enough utility (just like Jalen will have) to keep starting and will not be going away anytime soon. Obviously the skill varies from big to big, but if we're strictly speaking how Jalen will do defensively - Again, I ask... how difficult is it to guard the bigs in the second group if we're talking about lateral quickness as a weakness for Jalen? As Sugus (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54941) suggested, please take more time to watch more tape. And if you do not have time, then let's hold our breath and see what he does in the NBA, as all indications in college has shown he will do just fine since he has guarded similar caliber players (quickness-wise) from the second group.

[Dejounte]

How the game has changed is a two-sided coin.

On one side, you have small forwards who have converted to 4, which again is not the "majority".

On the other side, are players who many have chosen to ignore-- it is old school bigs transforming their game to stretch the floor. These are players like Al Horford, Blake Griffin, Aaron Gordon, Anthony Davis... and all the incoming bigs from college who are focusing on 3 point shooting to add to their repertoire.

These players will not be phased out.

[JuneJive]

Yeah, but the big question with him is if he'll be able to stay on the court as a "4" or be strictly limited to the "5" due to his problems defending in space.

Either way, I can see his bbiq help him with that.

[Dejounte]

Yeah, but the big question with him is if he'll be able to stay on the court as a "4" or be strictly limited to the "5" due to his problems defending in space.

Either way, I can see his bbiq help him with that.

Yes, the question is if Jalen will have problems chasing these guys:

Joe Ingles
Juan Hernangómez
Domantas Sabonis
Lauri Markkanen
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Dario Saric
Nemanja Bjelica
Bam Adebayo
Aaron Gordon
P.J. Washington
Davis Bertans or Rui Hachimura
Kristap Porzingas
Jaren Jackson Jr
Trey Lyles
Zion Williamson
Al Horford
Julius Randle
Jerami Grant, Paul Millsap, or MPJ

Bear in mind that these are all starters.

Do these players look ridiculously quick to anyone?

I, for one, do not think so based off the countless hours I've watched him play.

[BackHome]

He will have no problems at the 4 he might have some issues with big 5 but he will have no issue with anyone at the 4 and could probably hang with a few 3 pretty good also.

[XDT76]

Because the game is more geared towards skill than ever and you can't play two sub par passing bigs (with a lack of shooting/play making) and expect to have a functional offense. The Lakers make it work for the first 6 minutes of each half, but that's with a top 2 player ever and arguably the top 2 current players.

It is a requirement because many 4's now are really just converted 3's. If he can't defend them on the perimeter, then what? Forget about Lyles or many things recently. They're stopgap measures from a desperate/stubborn organization that was trying to cling to a streak/reputation.

It can be a positive if it's a mismatch nightmare like Davis. Smith isn't going to bully or beat big wing 4's up in the post though.




Because they generally occupy 3 of 5 positions in today's league and are more malleable. It's also easier to find credible center play for cheap. The biggest positional need is big wing, but the biggest need period is elite - high end talent.

I'm not saying don't select Smith at any cost, I'm saying all things being relatively equal, I'd have a tough time passing up a high floor wing. Drafting for position is never intelligent, less so projecting a year in advance. Always draft for value because that can be traded to plug other holes down the road.

Poor reading comprehension (and Bertans has better ball handling/passing skills than you give him credit for). It's not about a direct comparison, it's about the simple fact that neither has a defined defensive position and usually when that's the case players top out as sub starters because it's easier to dictate matchups off the bench.



The first thing I look for in this draft is also a big wing, however, I really did not see one that I like. Who do you recommend to draft as a big wing? Devin and Aaron definitely could not be define as big wing, we are then probably left with Saddiq and PatWil (which I am ok if we draft them) which one could not say are definitely are more talented than Jalen. However, the Spurs are in a bad shape in terms of big man and thus I see drafting Jalen as a better choice for this draft, as we can see how a big with 3 points can open up the spacing for offense. For the SF position, we still have Keldon and Lonnie.

[TD 21]

The first thing I look for in this draft is also a big wing, however, I really did not see one that I like. Who do you recommend to draft as a big wing? Devin and Aaron definitely could not be define as big wing, we are then probably left with Saddiq and PatWil (which I am ok if we draft them) which one could not say are definitely are more talented than Jalen. However, the Spurs are in a bad shape in terms of big man and thus I see drafting Jalen as a better choice for this draft, as we can see how a big with 3 points can open up the spacing for offense. For the SF position, we still have Keldon and Lonnie.

Again, I'm not definitively saying no to Smith under any circumstances, I'm just saying it'd be difficult to pass up Vassell or Nesmith for him. They're not big wings, but they are seemingly high floor wings. The types who might be able to start/close on an elite team, which is the ultimate goal of course.



When you say "many", it means majority.

“3 converted fours”:
Pascal Siakam
Danilo Gallinari
Carmelo Anthony
Giannis Antetokounmpo
Paul George
DeAndre Hunter or Cam Reddish? Not sure which one plays PF
Jayson Tatum

Regular big (or simply *not* 3’s) playing the four:
Joe Ingles
Juan Hernangómez
Domantas Sabonis
Lauri Markkanen
Blake Griffin
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Dario Saric
Nemanja Bjelica
Bam Adebayo
Aaron Gordon
P.J. Washington
Davis Bertans or Rui Hachimura
Kristap Porzingas
Jaren Jackson Jr
Trey Lyles
Zion Williamson
Al Horford
Julius Randle
Jerami Grant, Paul Millsap, or MPJ

These are all taken from basketballreference.com. I looked at minutes played, the depth chart, and which players had started.

It is a myth. This isn't "many". The number of "3 converted 4's" do not outnumber the standard 4's. It is a myth. And most of the players listed above have enough utility (just like Jalen will have) to keep starting and will not be going away anytime soon. Obviously the skill varies from big to big, but if we're strictly speaking how Jalen will do defensively - Again, I ask... how difficult is it to guard the bigs in the second group if we're talking about lateral quickness as a weakness for Jalen? As Sugus (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54941) suggested, please take more time to watch more tape. And if you do not have time, then let's hold our breath and see what he does in the NBA, as all indications in college has shown he will do just fine since he has guarded similar caliber players (quickness-wise) from the second group.

Shows how little you actually follow the league . . .

- Siakam is not a converted 4, he's a 4 who just so happened to develop a big wing skillset.
- Tatum is a 3 (Brown defends post up 4's).
- George is a 3 who starts as a nominal 2 (Morris is their primary 4).
- With Capela healthy, Collins will be the Hawks' primary 4.
- Ingles is a 3 (Bogdanovic is their nominal 4).
- Adebayo has been moved to his natural 5 since they got to the "bubble" and changed their rotation.
- Gordon/Isaac are amorphous.
- Bertans is a big wing and Hachimura effectively is too (the type who'd have been drafted as a 3 a decade ago)
- Porter Jr. primarily plays 3.

I don't care so much about starters, since some start two 5's, a placeholder 4 (like the Spurs, who play it by committee), multiple 3's. The reality is, most team's primary 4 is a big wing or a stretch big.

I liken him to Olynyk or even Portis. Offensively gifted 4.5's who don't have a clear position defensively and in their cases don't defend well enough to start period.

[ZeusWillJudge]

How the game has changed is a two-sided coin.

On one side, you have small forwards who have converted to 4, which again is not the "majority".

On the other side, are players who many have chosen to ignore-- it is old school bigs transforming their game to stretch the floor. These are players like Al Horford, Blake Griffin, Aaron Gordon, Anthony Davis... and all the incoming bigs from college who are focusing on 3 point shooting to add to their repertoire.

These players will not be phased out.


The reason the big men are having to play differently is specifically the 3's who are playing as small-ball 4's. And the good ones give old school big men fits. If the goal is to make it to the playoffs, and hope for a second round exit (so a middle seed), then matching up against those old school guys is probably enough. If the goal is to go further, then the team has to have an answer for those quicker guys.

I know you're a big fan of Jalen Smith. The bio-mechanics guys have said that he has "thin hips", and that he's not likely to put on much more strength in his lower body as a result. The problem with a lot of that kind of analysis is that it's great for explaining why a guy like Giannis is such a physical freak now - but it's not really a very dependable prediction tool for young guys. Those guys love to brag about the ones they get right, and don't talk about the ones they get wrong. If he can increase his lower body strength, I think he can be a damn good player. If he can't, he'll be a situational guy - even that isn't a horrible outcome. But I think he's got a chance to get a lot stronger, just looking at his overall physique.

One thing that's still worth mentioning. People love to compare players to each other in a vacuum. I know Toppin (for instance) has a lot going for him, but he played in the A-10 conference and faced a Strength of Schedule of 3.69. Smith played in the Big 10, against a SOS of 10.5. Even though Toppin is probably a little more ready to step onto an NBA court right away because of his offense, I think Smith could have more of a chance of being a versatile, two-way player.

He wasn't the guy I voted for in your poll (you know who I did vote for). But I wouldn't hate it if the Spurs called his name at 11.

[Dejounte]

Shows how little you actually follow the league . . .

- Siakam is not a converted 4, he's a 4 who just so happened to develop a big wing skillset.
- Tatum is a 3 (Brown defends post up 4's).
- George is a 3 who starts as a nominal 2 (Morris is their primary 4).
- With Capela healthy, Collins will be the Hawks' primary 4.
- Ingles is a 3 (Bogdanovic is their nominal 4).
- Adebayo has been moved to his natural 5 since they got to the "bubble" and changed their rotation.
- Gordon/Isaac are amorphous.
- Bertans is a big wing and Hachimura effectively is too (the type who'd have been drafted as a 3 a decade ago)
- Porter Jr. primarily plays 3.

I don't care so much about starters, since some start two 5's, a placeholder 4 (like the Spurs, who play it by committee), multiple 3's. The reality is, most team's primary 4 is a big wing or a stretch big.

I liken him to Olynyk or even Portis. Offensively gifted 4.5's who don't have a clear position defensively and in their cases don't defend well enough to start period.

I've tried to keep it civil with you in hopes of maybe you've matured from since the last time we've debated but you can't help it with your snide remarks, can you?

I can't follow every fucking team, so you can fuck off.

Most of the players you listed doesn't even stay on topic with the discussion. Siakam can be considered as a player with quicker lateral speed equivalent to a 3. Who will be guarding Tatum on defense when the starting line-up consists of Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Thies, Walker (most minutes together in the regular season)? Answer: It's a 4. Morris only started in the playoffs on key matchups. Bev, Kawhi, George, Harkless, Zubac played the most minutes together in the regular season. Mentioning Collins as their 4 proves my point, Collins has the speed of a big. Bogdanovic has the speed of a big, not a 3. Butler, Bam, Leonard, Nunn, D. Robinson played the most minutes together in the regular season (I know Nunn fell out of the rotation). Neither Gordon or Isaac have the speed of a 3.

Either my point missed your brain completely or you're just blabbering here.
Sugus (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54941), I would just leave it alone with this guy. This guy's brain is tunnel vision.

[Dejounte]

The reason the big men are having to play differently is specifically the 3's who are playing as small-ball 4's. And the good ones give old school big men fits. If the goal is to make it to the playoffs, and hope for a second round exit (so a middle seed), then matching up against those old school guys is probably enough. If the goal is to go further, then the team has to have an answer for those quicker guys.

I know you're a big fan of Jalen Smith. The bio-mechanics guys have said that he has "thin hips", and that he's not likely to put on much more strength in his lower body as a result. The problem with a lot of that kind of analysis is that it's great for explaining why a guy like Giannis is such a physical freak now - but it's not really a very dependable prediction tool for young guys. Those guys love to brag about the ones they get right, and don't talk about the ones they get wrong. If he can increase his lower body strength, I think he can be a damn good player. If he can't, he'll be a situational guy - even that isn't a horrible outcome. But I think he's got a chance to get a lot stronger, just looking at his overall physique.

One thing that's still worth mentioning. People love to compare players to each other in a vacuum. I know Toppin (for instance) has a lot going for him, but he played in the A-10 conference and faced a Strength of Schedule of 3.69. Smith played in the Big 10, against a SOS of 10.5. Even though Toppin is probably a little more ready to step onto an NBA court right away because of his offense, I think Smith could have more of a chance of being a versatile, two-way player.

He wasn't the guy I voted for in your poll (you know who I did vote for). But I wouldn't hate it if the Spurs called his name at 11.

Yeah, man. It looks like I have a hard on for Smith but I'm realistic and keep reservations about every single player (unless you're LeBron). Also, if Smith doesn't get drafted by the Spurs, he can fuck right off. I'm all about the Spurs, baby.

[TD 21]

I've tried to keep it civil with you in hopes of maybe you've matured from since the last time we've debated but you can't help it with your snide remarks, can you?

I can't follow every fucking team, so you can fuck off.

Most of the players you listed doesn't even stay on topic with the discussion. Siakam can be considered as a player with quicker lateral speed equivalent to a 3. Who will be guarding Tatum on defense when the starting line-up consists of Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Thies, Walker (most minutes together in the regular season)? Answer: It's a 4. Morris only started in the playoffs on key matchups. Bev, Kawhi, George, Harkless, Zubac played the most minutes together in the regular season. Mentioning Collins as their 4 proves my point. Bogdanovic has the speed of a big, not a 3. Butler, Bam, Leonard, Nunn, D. Robinson played the most minutes together in the regular season (I know Nunn fell out of the rotation). Neither Gordon or Isaac have the speed of a 3.

Either my point missed your brain completely or you're just blabbering here.
Sugus (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54941), I would just leave it alone with this guy. This guy's brain is tunnel vision.

:lmao This guy is gold, Jerry (or in this case, DAF86), gold.

[Dejounte]

:lmao This guy is gold, Jerry (or in this case, DAF86), gold.

Jerry's his fucking name? How do you know his real name? What the fuck are you two? Boyfriends?

Nah, DAF86 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11102) isn't someone I think about anymore. We're all Spurs fans at the end of the day. However, douchey pricks like yourself have to get called out sometimes.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Yeah, man. It looks like I have a hard on for Smith but I'm realistic and keep reservations about every single player (unless you're LeBron). Also, if Smith doesn't get drafted by the Spurs, he can fuck right off. I'm all about the Spurs, baby.


LOL. That's okay - I'm pretty stuck on wanting to see them draft Bey. At least you picked your guy and stuck with it.

I probably wasn't clear enough. The biggest knock on Smith is his lower body strength. Most of the scouts are more worried about whether he is going to get bullied down low. You would love him to be a little better in space, but that's not the biggest concern for him. I think there's a good chance he'll improve in that department. If the bio-mechanics guys were that good at predicting, Giannis wouldn't have fallen to 15. They knew he was athletic, but not what he was going to turn into.

So, no, I don't hate your pick.

[DAF86]

Jerry's his fucking name? How do you know his real name? What the fuck are you two? Boyfriends?

Nah, DAF86 (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11102) isn't someone I think about anymore. We're all Spurs fans at the end of the day. However, douchey pricks like yourself have to get called out sometimes.

j0qm0KUPeD8

[JuneJive]

I probably wasn't clear enough. The biggest knock on Smith is his lower body strength. Most of the scouts are more worried about whether he is going to get bullied down low. You would love him to be a little better in space, but that's not the biggest concern for him. I think there's a good chance he'll improve in that department.

I think you are wrong here.

As he stands, he's a poor PnR defender. It's his lack of mobility out on the perimeter that is the problem.

Strength on the other hand isn't an issue, as I see it.
He can get there with time.

He could very well be strictly limited to the 5 and featured only in a drop coverage.

[wildbill2u]

Not that an anology makes any difference, but I remember a relatively "short" center who had reall "big hips" and used them to attain star status in the old days--Wesley Unseld. You could say that he was the reason SA lost in their first big playoff series by using those big hips against our shooters., fouling them without getting a call.

[TD 21]

This raving lunatic is :cry about others making snide remarks? Oh, the humanity!

:lmao At spending virtually every waking moment supposedly pouring through hours of film on prospects the Spurs will most likely not draft (you do realize they only get one, right?) and raging/melting down because others don't agree with your opinion on them.

[Dejounte]

The king of buzz words trying to make it seem like I slam others like I slam his idiot ass. Lmfao. And I've made it clear I know the Spurs will only draft one and I don't mind spending the time. Keep making yourself feel proud of your buzz words and continuing to have no substance behind them. Aren't you the paranoid idiot who thinks every one is against black people? You little sick fuck.

[TD 21]

:lmao At this nut job, flying off the handle and having an epic meltdown all because someone disagreed with his latest (two inch) boner over some random draft prospect . . . get back on your meds.

[Dejounte]

Keep telling yourself that, go take your feminine sensitivities back to crying about random ass people being unfair to black people.

[Dejounte]

"LeBron is a powerful black man and other people are just jealous"

This dude is a fucking idiot lmfao

[TD 21]

:lmao Lack of reading comprehension and unwittingly exposing yourself as a closet racist.

Dumb hick logic: being a proponent of equality is bad and means you're sensitive, which equals feminine because every group that doesn't include me fits into a narrow box because that's what I've been brainwashed into believing my entire life.

[Dejounte]

Lmao it's always reading comprehension with you or absurd accusations of racism

How shitty your arguments must be when you have to resort to pointing out imaginative racial biases

One word: delusional

Your head is so big, you remain fixated on your buzz words and flawed (and debunked) basketball logic. Your effort remains piss poor when it comes to actually assessing players and when you're backed into a corner, you use the race card. You're pathetic.

[TD 21]

Says the mentally unstable person who brought it up because he had embarrassed himself as much as possible on a message board and desperately wanted to change the subject.

[Dejounte]

Who the fuck cares what my image is on this message board? Lmao grasping for anything and sidestepping your idiotic views

[JuneJive]

Take it private, clowns.

[Sugus]

Woof, the thread has gone downhill. Can we chill with the personal attacks for a minute? The fact that there's no moderation doesn't mean we gotta be shit-slinging on a fine Sunday afternoon.

Anyways.


Because the game is more geared towards skill than ever and you can't play two sub par passing bigs (with a lack of shooting/play making) and expect to have a functional offense. The Lakers make it work for the first 6 minutes of each half, but that's with a top 2 player ever and arguably the top 2 current players.

It is a requirement because many 4's now are really just converted 3's. If he can't defend them on the perimeter, then what? Forget about Lyles or many things recently. They're stopgap measures from a desperate/stubborn organization that was trying to cling to a streak/reputation.

It can be a positive if it's a mismatch nightmare like Davis. Smith isn't going to bully or beat big wing 4's up in the post though.

This part of your analysis, I disagree with. Why say Jalen is lacking in shooting? And why would Poeltl's presence (since I'm assuming that's the other big) affect our draft pick? You can grab Jalen (and I want to make clear, it's not about Jalen alone - you can perfectly disagree with my evaluation of him, I'm talking from a roster-building POV) and then sign a FA big, or draft another one, that fits the playmaking/passing bill you need to complement Smith's game. I think Luka can be that playmaking/passing big in the future, IF he absolutely pans out in terms of skills, but even if he isn't, I wouldn't see that as a deterrent to draft Jalen. As is, the Spurs have enough playmaking coming from their guards to keep the ship floating, and it's not like I want them to get immediately better next season and miss a high draft pick for the '21 draft...

I also don't see why Smith couldn't bully big wing 4's in the post. It's a "low % shot" by modern NBA standards, but the Spurs particularly don't really follow those modern trends to a T anyways, and Smith is physically more than capable of imposing himself and getting quick (and not-so-quick) buckets against bulkier opponents. I say again - there's a lot of tape of him doing this against perfectly fine competition in college. I once again highlight his game against Tillman, he made him work for some of those buckets. I don't want players or a team that isn't versatile - if anything, this years' playoffs have shown that the midrange and more "vintage" methods of scoring are FAR from gone or irrelevant. The fact that Smith is an absolute threat from deep, on top of being a good to great rim scorer, is just icing on the cake.



Because they generally occupy 3 of 5 positions in today's league and are more malleable. It's also easier to find credible center play for cheap. The biggest positional need is big wing, but the biggest need period is elite - high end talent.

To be honest with you, I could care less about "credible center play". The Spurs aren't going anywhere by getting "credible center play". They need high-impact, versatility, shooting, strength, and rebounding from their bigs if they want to get to the promise land anytime soon - and I guarantee you, that's not something you just sign off waivers or trade a second-rounder for. Those kinds of players, you get in the draft, in the lottery even depending on the case. "Credible center play" is good for a team like the Clippers, with stars holding down the fort in other positions (and we've seen even for them, it wasn't enough).

I wholeheartedly agree that biggest need is elite, high-end talent; I just fail to see which prospect you're thinking of that is so above-and-beyond in terms of talent, that you'd dismiss the Spurs' roster needs, both long and short-term, to draft. Seriously, I'd like a name, so I can at least see what you're picturing in your head. Is it Vassell? I can guarantee you that guy isn't moving the needle for us, nor guarding any "big wing" whatsoever. If it's Neismith, I fail to see what good does drafting a SG (especially considering the logjam the Spurs have there) for your argument's sake. Again, it's not about Jalen alone, but from a pure roster-building point, I really don't see what player your argument lines up with, in this specific draft. To be honest, the prospect that comes closest to what you'd like... Is Achiuwa. Good skills, dribbling/playmaking potential, absolute strength to defend modern wings/big men, switchable to an extent, athletic, plays much better perimeter defense than Smith. But I haven't seen you mention him in any of your comments, so that mustn't be.



I'm not saying don't select Smith at any cost, I'm saying all things being relatively equal, I'd have a tough time passing up a high floor wing. Drafting for position is never intelligent, less so projecting a year in advance. Always draft for value because that can be traded to plug other holes down the road.

Poor reading comprehension (and Bertans has better ball handling/passing skills than you give him credit for). It's not about a direct comparison, it's about the simple fact that neither has a defined defensive position and usually when that's the case players top out as sub starters because it's easier to dictate matchups off the bench.

Again I ask the question - why would you select a high-floor, low-ceiling wing with a lottery pick, in a VERY wing-weak draft, when the very next draft is already known to be packing much, much higher talent level prospects at this position? What is this absolute, urgent hole the Spurs have to fill? I'm not seeing it. Of course, you can have your preferences on what you think the Spurs should draft - it's just weird to me that you're passing on your personal preference, as factual, indubitable gospel. Please expand.

I was a bit offended by the Bertans comment, ngl. When in God's name have you ever seen a pass by Bertans that was anything more than serviceable?! Is Bertans really your image of a passing/ball-handling big? The guy could literally not take the ball to the rim if his life depended on it. Like, seriously, post a YouTube highlight or something :lol maybe my memory is shittier than I'm thinking, but I would never in my life call Bertans a "big with ball handling skills". Let's be real.

And again, Smith's defensive position is the 4. Specifically, which 4's do you think he could not match up against? I could see him doing well against most that come to mind. He could handle Siakam, he could handle Giannis (as good as anyone can handle a league MVP, of course), he could handle Brown unless he's going full 3pt chuck-fest. I can see, for example, AD giving him problems when he plays the 4 in the RS, but that's not a real 4. Again I fail to see which part of Smith's game you think will translate so badly, that he'll go from being a very good defender in college, to not being able to guard even his own position in the NBA. And I don't see why the fact that he's got potential as a small-ball 5 would mean he doesn't have a "true" position, if that's what you mean. Just an overall very vague comment, tbh.

[Sugus]

Sugus (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=54941), I would just leave it alone with this guy. This guy's brain is tunnel vision.

I'm a bit of a masochist, it seems... :lol

[DAF86]

Woof, the thread has gone downhill. Can we chill with the personal attacks for a minute? The fact that there's no moderation doesn't mean we gotta be shit-slinging on a fine Sunday afternoon.

Anyways.



This part of your analysis, I disagree with. Why say Jalen is lacking in shooting? And why would Poeltl's presence (since I'm assuming that's the other big) affect our draft pick? You can grab Jalen (and I want to make clear, it's not about Jalen alone - you can perfectly disagree with my evaluation of him, I'm talking from a roster-building POV) and then sign a FA big, or draft another one, that fits the playmaking/passing bill you need to complement Smith's game. I think Luka can be that playmaking/passing big in the future, IF he absolutely pans out in terms of skills, but even if he isn't, I wouldn't see that as a deterrent to draft Jalen. As is, the Spurs have enough playmaking coming from their guards to keep the ship floating, and it's not like I want them to get immediately better next season and miss a high draft pick for the '21 draft...

I also don't see why Smith couldn't bully big wing 4's in the post. It's a "low % shot" by modern NBA standards, but the Spurs particularly don't really follow those modern trends to a T anyways, and Smith is physically more than capable of imposing himself and getting quick (and not-so-quick) buckets against bulkier opponents. I say again - there's a lot of tape of him doing this against perfectly fine competition in college. I once again highlight his game against Tillman, he made him work for some of those buckets. I don't want players or a team that isn't versatile - if anything, this years' playoffs have shown that the midrange and more "vintage" methods of scoring are FAR from gone or irrelevant. The fact that Smith is an absolute threat from deep, on top of being a good to great rim scorer, is just icing on the cake.




To be honest with you, I could care less about "credible center play". The Spurs aren't going anywhere by getting "credible center play". They need high-impact, versatility, shooting, **strength** (let's ignore this) , and rebounding from their bigs if they want to get to the promise land anytime soon - and I guarantee you, that's not something you just sign off waivers or trade a second-rounder for. Those kinds of players, you get in the draft, in the lottery even depending on the case. "Credible center play" is good for a team like the Clippers, with stars holding down the fort in other positions (and we've seen even for them, it wasn't enough).

I wholeheartedly agree that biggest need is elite, high-end talent; I just fail to see which prospect you're thinking of that is so above-and-beyond in terms of talent, that you'd dismiss the Spurs' roster needs, both long and short-term, to draft. Seriously, I'd like a name, so I can at least see what you're picturing in your head. Is it Vassell? I can guarantee you that guy isn't moving the needle for us, nor guarding any "big wing" whatsoever. If it's Neismith, I fail to see what good does drafting a SG (especially considering the logjam the Spurs have there) for your argument's sake. Again, it's not about Jalen alone, but from a pure roster-building point, I really don't see what player your argument lines up with, in this specific draft. To be honest, the prospect that comes closest to what you'd like... Is Achiuwa. Good skills, dribbling/playmaking potential, absolute strength to defend modern wings/big men, switchable to an extent, athletic, plays much better perimeter defense than Smith. But I haven't seen you mention him in any of your comments, so that mustn't be.




Again I ask the question - why would you select a high-floor, low-ceiling wing with a lottery pick, in a VERY wing-weak draft, when the very next draft is already known to be packing much, much higher talent level prospects at this position? What is this absolute, urgent hole the Spurs have to fill? I'm not seeing it. Of course, you can have your preferences on what you think the Spurs should draft - it's just weird to me that you're passing on your personal preference, as factual, indubitable gospel. Please expand.

I was a bit offended by the Bertans comment, ngl. When in God's name have you ever seen a pass by Bertans that was anything more than serviceable?! Is Bertans really your image of a passing/ball-handling big? The guy could literally not take the ball to the rim if his life depended on it. Like, seriously, post a YouTube highlight or something :lol maybe my memory is shittier than I'm thinking, but I would never in my life call Bertans a "big with ball handling skills". Let's be real.

And again, Smith's defensive position is the 4. Specifically, which 4's do you think he could not match up against? I could see him doing well against most that come to mind. He could handle Siakam, he could handle Giannis (as good as anyone can handle a league MVP, of course), he could handle Brown unless he's going full 3pt chuck-fest. I can see, for example, AD giving him problems when he plays the 4 in the RS, but that's not a real 4. Again I fail to see which part of Smith's game you think will translate so badly, that he'll go from being a very good defender in college, to not being able to guard even his own position in the NBA. And I don't see why the fact that he's got potential as a small-ball 5 would mean he doesn't have a "true" position, if that's what you mean. Just an overall very vague comment, tbh.

Did somebody call the Marfan DemiGod?

https://uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Aleksej_Pokusevski___One_Dribble_Pullup_Three.gif

P/S: Bertans was an above average passer and ball handler for a 6'10" guy, tbh.

[Sugus]

Did somebody call the Marfan DemiGod?

https://uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Aleksej_Pokusevski___One_Dribble_Pullup_Three.gif

P/S: Bertans was an above average passer and ball handler for a 6'10" guy, tbh.

Tbh, I've said it a couple of times, I'm not opposed to Poku either. Drafts are such a crap shoot... If the Spurs are ok with his medical on draft night, I'll trust their choice. He's just not my personal pick due to bust concerns, I think getting nothing out of this #11 pick would hurt the Spurs much more than getting a "low-ceiling career role player" (worst case scenario for some of the projected picks) would.

I can live with reading Bertans is above-average. I was originally just saying he's nowhere near Smith as a prospect, and that Smith has a defined defensive position, mainly because Jalen isn't a defensive liability at every position like Davis was. I actually liked him on the Spurs... Oh well.

[BackHome]

The two major reasons we are loosing games are 1. Our Defense Sucks 2. We don’t shoot and make enough 3 balls. So that is one reason I like Smith he is a really good defender he has size he blocks shots he gets you a lot of rebounds and he can shoot the 3 ball.

[Dejounte]

The two major reasons we are loosing games are 1. Our Defense Sucks 2. We don’t shoot and make enough 3 balls. So that is one reason I like Smith he is a really good defender he has size he blocks shots he gets you a lot of rebounds and he can shoot the 3 ball.

Let's be real, unless the Spurs had a top 3 pick, they're more likely to pursue incremental change than pin their hopes on a game changer at #11. The Spurs have always acted like a turtle for positive growth.

Even when they drafted Kawhi, he was seen as a low ceiling, high floor type. Then he blew everyone away.

[TD 21]

Woof, the thread has gone downhill. Can we chill with the personal attacks for a minute? The fact that there's no moderation doesn't mean we gotta be shit-slinging on a fine Sunday afternoon.

Anyways.



This part of your analysis, I disagree with. Why say Jalen is lacking in shooting? And why would Poeltl's presence (since I'm assuming that's the other big) affect our draft pick? You can grab Jalen (and I want to make clear, it's not about Jalen alone - you can perfectly disagree with my evaluation of him, I'm talking from a roster-building POV) and then sign a FA big, or draft another one, that fits the playmaking/passing bill you need to complement Smith's game. I think Luka can be that playmaking/passing big in the future, IF he absolutely pans out in terms of skills, but even if he isn't, I wouldn't see that as a deterrent to draft Jalen. As is, the Spurs have enough playmaking coming from their guards to keep the ship floating, and it's not like I want them to get immediately better next season and miss a high draft pick for the '21 draft...

I also don't see why Smith couldn't bully big wing 4's in the post. It's a "low % shot" by modern NBA standards, but the Spurs particularly don't really follow those modern trends to a T anyways, and Smith is physically more than capable of imposing himself and getting quick (and not-so-quick) buckets against bulkier opponents. I say again - there's a lot of tape of him doing this against perfectly fine competition in college. I once again highlight his game against Tillman, he made him work for some of those buckets. I don't want players or a team that isn't versatile - if anything, this years' playoffs have shown that the midrange and more "vintage" methods of scoring are FAR from gone or irrelevant. The fact that Smith is an absolute threat from deep, on top of being a good to great rim scorer, is just icing on the cake.




To be honest with you, I could care less about "credible center play". The Spurs aren't going anywhere by getting "credible center play". They need high-impact, versatility, shooting, strength, and rebounding from their bigs if they want to get to the promise land anytime soon - and I guarantee you, that's not something you just sign off waivers or trade a second-rounder for. Those kinds of players, you get in the draft, in the lottery even depending on the case. "Credible center play" is good for a team like the Clippers, with stars holding down the fort in other positions (and we've seen even for them, it wasn't enough).

I wholeheartedly agree that biggest need is elite, high-end talent; I just fail to see which prospect you're thinking of that is so above-and-beyond in terms of talent, that you'd dismiss the Spurs' roster needs, both long and short-term, to draft. Seriously, I'd like a name, so I can at least see what you're picturing in your head. Is it Vassell? I can guarantee you that guy isn't moving the needle for us, nor guarding any "big wing" whatsoever. If it's Neismith, I fail to see what good does drafting a SG (especially considering the logjam the Spurs have there) for your argument's sake. Again, it's not about Jalen alone, but from a pure roster-building point, I really don't see what player your argument lines up with, in this specific draft. To be honest, the prospect that comes closest to what you'd like... Is Achiuwa. Good skills, dribbling/playmaking potential, absolute strength to defend modern wings/big men, switchable to an extent, athletic, plays much better perimeter defense than Smith. But I haven't seen you mention him in any of your comments, so that mustn't be.




Again I ask the question - why would you select a high-floor, low-ceiling wing with a lottery pick, in a VERY wing-weak draft, when the very next draft is already known to be packing much, much higher talent level prospects at this position? What is this absolute, urgent hole the Spurs have to fill? I'm not seeing it. Of course, you can have your preferences on what you think the Spurs should draft - it's just weird to me that you're passing on your personal preference, as factual, indubitable gospel. Please expand.

I was a bit offended by the Bertans comment, ngl. When in God's name have you ever seen a pass by Bertans that was anything more than serviceable?! Is Bertans really your image of a passing/ball-handling big? The guy could literally not take the ball to the rim if his life depended on it. Like, seriously, post a YouTube highlight or something :lol maybe my memory is shittier than I'm thinking, but I would never in my life call Bertans a "big with ball handling skills". Let's be real.

And again, Smith's defensive position is the 4. Specifically, which 4's do you think he could not match up against? I could see him doing well against most that come to mind. He could handle Siakam, he could handle Giannis (as good as anyone can handle a league MVP, of course), he could handle Brown unless he's going full 3pt chuck-fest. I can see, for example, AD giving him problems when he plays the 4 in the RS, but that's not a real 4. Again I fail to see which part of Smith's game you think will translate so badly, that he'll go from being a very good defender in college, to not being able to guard even his own position in the NBA. And I don't see why the fact that he's got potential as a small-ball 5 would mean he doesn't have a "true" position, if that's what you mean. Just an overall very vague comment, tbh.

I mean there would be a lack of shooting/play making in general (factoring in the youth). Not that anything is entrenched.

Smith doesn't have the base strength for it. His game offensively will probably primarily consistent of pick and pop/spot up 3's when he's next to a rim runner and when he's not, he'll be the rim runner.

In regards to "credible center play", it depends on the surrounding talent but most teams aren't built around bigs anymore, so chances are the next good Spurs team won't be either.

I didn't say anyone projected to be available at 11 represented high end talent. There is no logjam because nothing is set in stone long term. At this writing, no blue chip prospects and if they all top out as elite - decent role players, even then some will be gone because if they all get paid their worth 1) The team would suck and 2) It would in part because most or all of the cap space is tied up in non superstars/stars.

You have no idea how the next year is going to play out. Maybe some of those wings disappoint/suffer significant injury and go back to school, maybe this team is better than expected and picking closer to mid round than near the top. You can't worry about what might happen a year down the road. . . and if it does play out that way and they eventually have an abundance of quality wings/guards, that's a good problem to have.

Not basing it off one pass, but since you asked: the cut and drop off to Aldridge.

Smith's defensive position in the NBA will probably primarily be based off of matchup, which is why I said third big. Strangers things have happened though.

[DAF86]

Tbh, I've said it a couple of times, I'm not opposed to Poku either. Drafts are such a crap shoot... If the Spurs are ok with his medical on draft night, I'll trust their choice. He's just not my personal pick due to bust concerns, I think getting nothing out of this #11 pick would hurt the Spurs much more than getting a "low-ceiling career role player" (worst case scenario for some of the projected picks) would.

I can live with reading Bertans is above-average. I was originally just saying he's nowhere near Smith as a prospect, and that Smith has a defined defensive position, mainly because Jalen isn't a defensive liability at every position like Davis was. I actually liked him on the Spurs... Oh well.

If somebody assures me that Smith would manage to have Bertans like impact, I would sign him up without hesitation, but I'm not sure he will, tbh.

Smith ceiling is Ibaka, imho. A defensive interior presence with outside shooting. I don't ever see him developing to the point of being a primary offensive option, he just doesn't seem to have the skillset. I would love a young Ibaka though, the thing is, the chances of him ever reaching that ceiling aren't ideal, imho.

[Sugus]

I mean there would be a lack of shooting/play making in general (factoring in the youth). Not that anything is entrenched.

Smith doesn't have the base strength for it. His game offensively will probably primarily consistent of pick and pop/spot up 3's when he's next to a rim runner and when he's not, he'll be the rim runner.

In regards to "credible center play", it depends on the surrounding talent but most teams aren't built around bigs anymore, so chances are the next good Spurs team won't be either.

I didn't say anyone projected to be available at 11 represented high end talent. There is no logjam because nothing is set in stone long term. At this writing, no blue chip prospects and if they all top out as elite - decent role players, even then some will be gone because if they all get paid their worth 1) The team would suck and 2) It would in part because most or all of the cap space is tied up in non superstars/stars.

You have no idea how the next year is going to play out. Maybe some of those wings disappoint/suffer significant injury and go back to school, maybe this team is better than expected and picking closer to mid round than near the top. You can't worry about what might happen a year down the road. . . and if it does play out that way and they eventually have an abundance of quality wings/guards, that's a good problem to have.

Not basing it off one pass, but since you asked: the cut and drop off to Aldridge.

Smith's defensive position in the NBA will probably primarily be based off of matchup, which is why I said third big. Strangers things have happened though.

It's fine, I see your points. I disagree on a few of them, but it's not like I have a crystal ball or anything, just my personal views/predictions.

I personally think at least Keldon is set in stone, which is already a deterrent for me to draft any 3-and-D high-floor SF, just because I see the starting SF position being set for years to come. It's ok if you don't, but I wouldn't want for example to draft Vassell, because of the overlap as well with our young guards. I also think the idea that next year's elite wings all dropping out, disappointing, or being injured is just as ridiculous, if not more, than the idea that they won't, but again, agree to disagree.

Lastly, I still don't see why you instantly relegate Smith to a "third big" when there's nothing stopping him from defending starting PFs. He doesn't lack length, he's quick on his feet for someone his size, his legs can use work but it's not like his body won't develop. It's not a Eubanks case, where he truly has to be relegated to the deep bench because he simply doesn't have the speed, agility, or IQ to hang with even bench bigs. But we all have our predictions on prospects, I guess... I'd love to know who you're pulling for in this draft. There doesn't seem to be a single prospect that satisfies what you're looking for (and the ones that do, you don't like, from what I've seen).



If somebody assures me that Smith would manage to have Bertans like impact, I would sign him up without hesitation, but I'm not sure he will, tbh.

Smith ceiling is Ibaka, imho. A defensive interior presence with outside shooting. I don't ever see him developing to the point of being a primary offensive option, he just doesn't seem to have the skillset. I would love a young Ibaka though, the thing is, the chances of him ever reaching that ceiling aren't ideal, imho.

Well, considering Bertans has turned himself into one of the best shooters in the entire world in a shooting-first league, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But I was never talking about Bertans' shooting nor comparing it to Smith's, only saying they're quite different as prospects in terms of their defensive position/projection. Agree on Smith's ceiling - and that's what makes it so tempting to draft him. Ibaka is the absolute perfect 5 for the modern game (unless you have a freak like AD, of course). And if you take into account that Smith also has the potential to play the 4 depending on matchup, I don't see why we'd pass on him. It's not a surprise to see he's been rising in the draft - my personal "hot take" is that I could see him go in the top-10. We'll see.

[Dejounte]

Summary of poll results so far:

Top five voted prospects
1) Jalen Smith
2) Patrick Williams
3) Aleksej Pokusevski
4) Saddiq Bey
5) Precious Achiuwa

Notes:

-Jalen Smith saw the biggest percentage increase in votes = plus 22.01%
-Precious Achiuwa saw the biggest percentage decrease in votes = minus 18.57%

Risers from last month (in order from greatest increase to lowest)

1) Jalen Smith = +22.01%
2) Saddiq Bey = +4.44%
3) Patrick Williams = +2.98%

Prospects with lower percentage of votes (in order from greatest decrease to lowest)

1) Precious Achiuwa = -18.67%
2) Aaron Nesmith = -11.61%
3) Aleksej Pokusevksi = -4.66%
4) Tyler Bey = -1.06%
5) Isaiah Stewart = -0.68%

Will update later if we get more voters.

[TD 21]

It's fine, I see your points. I disagree on a few of them, but it's not like I have a crystal ball or anything, just my personal views/predictions.

I personally think at least Keldon is set in stone, which is already a deterrent for me to draft any 3-and-D high-floor SF, just because I see the starting SF position being set for years to come. It's ok if you don't, but I wouldn't want for example to draft Vassell, because of the overlap as well with our young guards. I also think the idea that next year's elite wings all dropping out, disappointing, or being injured is just as ridiculous, if not more, than the idea that they won't, but again, agree to disagree.

Lastly, I still don't see why you instantly relegate Smith to a "third big" when there's nothing stopping him from defending starting PFs. He doesn't lack length, he's quick on his feet for someone his size, his legs can use work but it's not like his body won't develop. It's not a Eubanks case, where he truly has to be relegated to the deep bench because he simply doesn't have the speed, agility, or IQ to hang with even bench bigs. But we all have our predictions on prospects, I guess... I'd love to know who you're pulling for in this draft. There doesn't seem to be a single prospect that satisfies what you're looking for (and the ones that do, you don't like, from what I've seen).

Same here.

As promising as Johnson's start has been, the sample size is just too small for me to make a declaration as definitive as you did. Either way, he's a 2.5, just as the likes of Vassell and Nesmith are. One has nothing to do with the other and I'm not concerned with the young guards. White is a combo guard and Murray (despite his extension) and Walker have proven little. Again, if they all become quality players, good problem to have considering how valuable a commodity wings are.

Already explained that I don't see a lot of Smith types operating as the primary 4 for their respective teams and the ones who are, are featured offensive players.

I'm open to a myriad of possibilities if they stay at 11 (Nesmith, Vassell, Bey, Williams, Smith), but more so than a particular player, I'd like to see them attempt to trade up to 6-7 (Wiseman, Okongwu, Hayes, Haliburton), so long as they can do so with some combination of 11, Murray or a piece from an Aldridge/DeRozan trade.

[rankingtear]

In my opinion

- Jalen Smith and Aaron Nesmith , are the only two players when you plug in our lineup would make us a playoff team next year. They have the same impact as getting star level players at their position.
- Patrick Williams and Devin Vassel can get there in a year or two, pat as a swiss army knife ( Draymond Green, Andre Iguodala ) and devin as an efficient 3&D wing ( Danny Green, Mikal Bridges ).

The others require more of a leap of faith.

[talkspurs]

So for all those high on Smith if Wiseman falls to 11th would you rather have him or Smith?

[DAF86]

So for all those high on Smith if Wiseman falls to 11th would you rather have him or Smith?

There's no way you can pass up on Wiseman if he falls to 11.

[pad300]

There's no way you can pass up on Wiseman if he falls to 11.

Not sure about that - the only way Wiseman falls to 11 is if something catastrophic happens - like a car accident, or him being caught using meth...

[talkspurs]

Not sure about that - the only way Wiseman falls to 11 is if something catastrophic happens - like a car accident, or him being caught using meth...

I am talking about still as he is today. (no drugs/accident/affairs/injuries) He has slipped down some since the beginning. I think most have him going at 2 but Ive also seen that warriors are not enamored with him. If they are not would he Fall past other teams as well. Also he has not really played in about a year and a half by time the draft happens. The rest is about 6 months.

[Sugus]

I am talking about still as he is today. (no drugs/accident/affairs/injuries) He has slipped down some since the beginning. I think most have him going at 2 but Ive also seen that warriors are not enamored with him. If they are not would he Fall past other teams as well. Also he has not really played in about a year and a half by time the draft happens. The rest is about 6 months.

Where were those supposed insider reports on which teams leaned to certain prospects? I actually don't recall reading any team was Wiseman-bound. It's an interesting idea for sure, I could see Wiseman dropping unexpectedly if GSW trades their pick for win-now players, as other teams don't have such a big hole at C to fill. Now, whether he falls all the way down to #11 is a different matter entirely... He'd probably get past Phoenix since they don't need him with Ayton there, maybe the Kangz as well, I don't know about other teams though.

[talkspurs]

Where were those supposed insider reports on which teams leaned to certain prospects? I actually don't recall reading any team was Wiseman-bound. It's an interesting idea for sure, I could see Wiseman dropping unexpectedly if GSW trades their pick for win-now players, as other teams don't have such a big hole at C to fill. Now, whether he falls all the way down to #11 is a different matter entirely... He'd probably get past Phoenix since they don't need him with Ayton there, maybe the Kangz as well, I don't know about other teams though.

I may be misunderstanding what you are saying but I have not seen any that are saying they are leaning his way. This may be because they think he will be gone by then. I have seen some that said GS was not big on him.

Looking at the Draft.
Wolves have a big.
GS not interested from what I have heard.
Hornets Could see them drafting a big. Think i saw they like Okongwu
Bulls have a big think they are looking more PG
Cavs havea few bigs. non dominant so posible here but they could use anyone.
Hawks just tradded for Capela. Only position I say would be no draft for them would be PG. but if good enough drop jsut play them together.
Pistons have Wood who they really like. Dont think he would be a high priority for them. Think they go more PG.
Knicks have a C.
Wizzards have a Center but have heard they are interested in Okongwu so maybe they see Bryant as more of a PF.
Suns have a Center.
Then us.

There are a Few teams that could grab him but I think Hornets then maybe Cavs would be best place for him to go. A lot of the teams have bigs already. Some team may take him if they feel he is just much better then what they have and dont like any of the others. You also have the possibility of Celtics trading up to picks to jump and grab him.

[PhantomDashCam]

Where were those supposed insider reports on which teams leaned to certain prospects? I actually don't recall reading any team was Wiseman-bound. It's an interesting idea for sure, I could see Wiseman dropping unexpectedly if GSW trades their pick for win-now players, as other teams don't have such a big hole at C to fill. Now, whether he falls all the way down to #11 is a different matter entirely... He'd probably get past Phoenix since they don't need him with Ayton there, maybe the Kangz as well, I don't know about other teams though.

I expect we will have greater clarity on teams and their leanings post finals and when combine information is released publicly.
If Spurs are genuinely interested in Wiseman or Double ‘O’, they will probably need to trade up.
Could this be the year we see a run on “bigs” in the 1st round?

[Sugus]

I may be misunderstanding what you are saying but I have not seen any that are saying they are leaning his way. This may be because they think he will be gone by then. I have seen some that said GS was not big on him.

That's exactly what I was saying - I hadn't seen any teams actively listed as "interested" in Wiseman, only teams who weren't. Thanks for the list.


I expect we will have greater clarity on teams and their leanings post finals and when combine information is released publicly.
If Spurs are genuinely interested in Wiseman or Double ‘O’, they will probably need to trade up.
Could this be the year we see a run on “bigs” in the 1st round?

Agreed. The numbers from this year's combine will have a bigger impact on prospects' standings than maybe any year before, since the other methods to scout players are so limited. We might see a bunch of risers/droppers in the weeks afterwards. And personally, I'm not hoping the Spurs trade up... Unless it's only a few positions, and it costs something like Murray + 11, I don't think the talent at the mid-top is worth shedding further assets.

[Biggems]

I want Jalen Smith and Vernon Carey Jr.

Then, I want a facilitating PG and a defensive minded SF who can play point forward.

[rankingtear]

I would prefer Okongwu over Wiseman , in the case of Okongwu at least your sure he is future and playoff proof. Jalen Smith and James Wiseman is more debatable , I think teams have Wiseman higher than Smith as a prospect but picking him is another matter. He is just not a modern center , can't pass , shoot or defend in space. How long would pure centers be valuable in the league, they are already being replaced by combo bigs or big wings with rim protection.

[objective]

Still voted Williams.

I would go Williams-Achiuwa-Smith-Hampton

Don't really want anyone else on the list, really don't want Toppin either.

[BWS-1994]

Went with Williams.

But Nesmith looks intriguing, especially with his work ethic.