Duncan vs. LeBron a lot closer than BSPN or SI would assume as winning ultimate goal

[Rummpd]

Just the facts - from basketball reference note Duncan for four years of best defensive rating in league (and should have won DVP multiple times). James does have a higher PER and Win Share and is rightfully considered the better player. However, the true gap is not what is thought of; and if starting a team give me Duncan over the wandering James (as Duncan the ultimate winner by win percentage despite off and on far lessor support_.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

https://clutchpoints.com/tim-duncan-retires-highest-win-percentage-player-across-four-major-sports-last-19-years/

BLUF: It these two had ever paired up for even 8 years they would have won more championships than Jordan/Pippen, Shaq/Kobe etc.

[Spurtacular]

Just the facts - from basketball reference note Duncan for four years of best defensive rating in league (and should have won DVP multiple times). James does have a higher PER and Win Share and is rightfully considered the better player. However, the true gap is not what is thought of; and if starting a team give me Duncan over the wandering James (as Duncan the ultimate winner by win percentage despite off and on far lessor support_.

No. That's basket dork stats. TD was truly dominant. LeCoward has to do roids and get calls.
LeCoward ain't in Duncan's stratosphere. Duncan swept LeCoward in three finals if you don't count Suckovich giving one away.

[Rummpd]

No. That's basket dork stats. TD was truly dominant. LeCoward has to do roids and get calls.
LeCoward ain't in Duncan's stratosphere. Duncan swept LeCoward in three finals if you don't count Suckovich giving one away.

I agree with you to a point that I would take TD over LBJ to start a franchise and mainly as LBJ has cowardly left Cleveland twice instead of helping rebuild.

[Neo.]

No. That's basket dork stats. TD was truly dominant. LeCoward has to do roids and get calls.
LeCoward ain't in Duncan's stratosphere. Duncan swept LeCoward in three finals if you don't count Suckovich giving one away.

proof?

[Spurtacular]

proof?

Dude, he's Barry Bonds'ing it.

TOSB was washed up in his first year with the Lakers.

[Rummpd]

Dude, he's Barry Bonds'ing it.

TOSB was washed up in his first year with the Lakers.

Truth as he is on something it seems

[lefty]

lol Jordan is the most ref protected player of all time and it's not even close

[lefty]

Dude, he's Barry Bonds'ing it.

TOSB was washed up in his first year with the Lakers.
Then why did the Lakers shut him down for the rest of the season if he was Barryboding?

[Rummpd]

lol Jordan is the most ref protected player of all time and it's not even close

That would be LBJ followed Harden actually

[Spurtacular]

Then why did the Lakers shut him down for the rest of the season if he was Barryboding?

He shut himself down. Whatever "supplements" he takes were changed. Personnel changes didn't hurt either.
But you don't get drastically better from one year to the next like that, naturally. Dude's probably doing Balco-level sh**.
Unlike Bonds, he doesn't have the enemies ratting him out (yet).

[lefty]

That would be LBJ followed Harden actually
Yes LBJ gets some call, but during his career hes had quite a few playoff games were the refs were shitting on him

It's Jordan and it's not even close

[Rummpd]

Do you watch games? Jordan got no call vs Utah but never went to line aka LBJ, Kobe, Harden etc. I am a HS ref and grant not NBA level but game was called much differently back then and James like Shaq IMO most egarious non calls going to hoop ever.

[R. DeMurre]

The thing that almost all analysts miss when evaluating Duncan's career is that for the vast majority of his prime, he played for one of the most frugal organizations in the entire NBA. During their key rivalry years, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Kobe/Pau Lakers, and the Big Three era of Miami outspent Tim's Spurs by many many millions of dollars-- it wasn't even close. In 2013/14, San Antonio's payroll was $63mil compared to Miami's $81mil. In 2003/4 the Spurs' payroll was $46.4mil and the Lakers' was $64mil. Go back in a Time Machine and give Timmy an additional $10mil player each year, and he almost certainly finishes with 6 or more rings.

[Rummpd]

The thing that almost all analysts miss when evaluating Duncan's career is that for the vast majority of his prime, he played for one of the most frugal organizations in the entire NBA. During their key rivalry years, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Kobe/Pau Lakers, and the Big Three era of Miami outspent Tim's Spurs by many many millions of dollars-- it wasn't even close. In 2013/14, San Antonio's payroll was $63mil compared to Miami's $81mil. In 2003/4 the Spurs' payroll was $46.4mil and the Lakers' was $64mil. Go back in a Time Machine and give Timmy an additional $10mil player each year, and he almost certainly finishes with 6 or more rings.

Fair point

[JamStone]

At worst, LeBron is a top 4 player in NBA history, depending how you view Wilt. Top 3 with Jordan and Kareem is legitimate. At best, Duncan is bottom half of top 10, probably closer to 10 than 5.

Whatever “gap” you think there is, however great or small you believe, the gap is there and it’s real and it’s significant enough that it’s clear LeBron had a greater career. Duncan’s career is great, HOF, one of a handful of the very best. LeBron’s career should go down as one of the top 2-3 best careers ever, even with his Finals record.

You can talk about steroids all you want. Dwyane Wade looked like he juiced too with his Family Guy cartoon jawline. He didn’t have a top 10 NBA career, let alone a top 3. Joakim Noah, Rashard Lewis, Lindsey Hunter, Hedo Turkogku, OJ Mayo, Darius Miles... all suspended by the league for some form of PED use. You don’t see any of those guys getting casted for a Hall of Fame bust. The athletic freaks like Stromile Swift and Corey Maggette never were in position to chase down Jordan and Kareem. Steroids or not, if a player doesn’t have the skill and IQ and will to match, then that player doesn’t do what LeBron has done for 17 seasons.

The four years Duncan led the league in defensive rating, he finished 4th, 6th, 3rd, and 6th in DPOY voting, not even one top 2 finish. In 2007, he has an argument in third place with Camby winning the award that he could have maybe won it. The other three years he wasn’t even a legitimate contender for the award, let alone was robbed of it. Defensive rating is a nice stat to look at as long as you understand that it’s at least partially dependent on the performance of teammates and the team as a whole. The better your teammates are defensively and how the team defends collectively really impact a stat like DR. Could Duncan have won a DPOY in his career? Sure. He was good enough defensively. Was the voting messed up? Sure, just like the League MVP where guys like Nash and Curry are multiple winners and Shaq only has one. It is what it is. You shouldn’t make arguments that a player be considered better because he “should have” won an award he didn’t win. It’s a shitty argument.

[i'm_still_beta]

LeBron haters are desperate.

He isn't going to last after 30 ... best player in the World at age 35. He's playoffs choker ... 4 titles, 4 fmvps. lol

Nobody produced so well for so long. You can easily make a case for LeBron as a GOAT

Not LeBron fan but I have to give credit where credit is due

P.S. Every superstar gets favourable calls.

[Neo.]

Dude, he's Barry Bonds'ing it.

TOSB was washed up in his first year with the Lakers.

proof?

[Neo.]

Yes LBJ gets some call, but during his career hes had quite a few playoff games were the refs were shitting on him

It's Jordan and it's not even close

lol like in game 7 2016 near the end, lebron had an easy layup and iggy blatantly raked him across the arms to stop the layup and no call

[Neo.]

The thing that almost all analysts miss when evaluating Duncan's career is that for the vast majority of his prime, he played for one of the most frugal organizations in the entire NBA. During their key rivalry years, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Kobe/Pau Lakers, and the Big Three era of Miami outspent Tim's Spurs by many many millions of dollars-- it wasn't even close. In 2013/14, San Antonio's payroll was $63mil compared to Miami's $81mil. In 2003/4 the Spurs' payroll was $46.4mil and the Lakers' was $64mil. Go back in a Time Machine and give Timmy an additional $10mil player each year, and he almost certainly finishes with 6 or more rings.

yes they were frugle, but they were so well ran and coached they were able to be. they found two HOFs to support timmy at the end of the first and in the second rounds. pop did a wonderful job of finding hidden gems of role players for cheap, and maximizing their potential. they have without question been the most well ran organization in basketball (until the kawhi drama) for 20 years or so.

one could counter your argument, that if you give timmy a disaster of an organization like cleveland, new york, or philly, he finishes with no rings, unless he leaves the team for something better. or that if lebron was given the GOAT coach and the most well ran franchise professional basketball has ever seen, he already has 6+ rings.

[swrowe78]

Lebron is more talented than Duncan. And besides rings, Lebron has pretty much surpassed Duncan in every other category accomplishment wise. So I wouldn't mind someone saying Lebron is higher all time. But if I had to start a team? I'm picking Duncan. Duncan's loyal while Lebron's going to team hop the second he can.

[Rummpd]

Lebron is more talented than Duncan. And besides rings, Lebron has pretty much surpassed Duncan in every other category accomplishment wise. So I wouldn't mind someone saying Lebron is higher all time. But if I had to start a team? I'm picking Duncan. Duncan's loyal while Lebron's going to team hop the second he can.
About sums it up

[lefty]

lol like in game 7 2016 near the end, lebron had an easy layup and iggy blatantly raked him across the arms to stop the layup and no call

Exactly

[Neo.]

Lebron is more talented than Duncan. And besides rings, Lebron has pretty much surpassed Duncan in every other category accomplishment wise. So I wouldn't mind someone saying Lebron is higher all time. But if I had to start a team? I'm picking Duncan. Duncan's loyal while Lebron's going to team hop the second he can.

lol whining about "loyalty" when timmy quit on an entire country because things didn't go his way :rollin

[lefty]

Do you watch games? Jordan got no call vs Utah but never went to line aka LBJ, Kobe, Harden etc. I am a HS ref and grant not NBA level but game was called much differently back then and James like Shaq IMO most egarious non calls going to hoop ever.

I watch games and Jordan is the most ref protected player in the NBA history

And when he wasn’t getting BS calls in his favour himself, his team did, Stern making sure Jordan rang no matter what

You bring up the Jazz series :

- end of game 6 in 97 : 2 « missed » goaltending calls
- game 6 in 1998 : Eisley makes a 3 before the shotclock expired, waived off by company man in chief Dick Bavetta; Ron Harper makes 2 after the shotclock expired, not waived off by Bavetta; look at the final score and do the math

[lefty]

lol whining about "loyalty" when timmy quit on an entire country because things didn't go his way :rollin
« FIBA sucks » :cry

[Rummpd]

TD one of only few stars to go games one year. At the end of day LBJ is a truly great baller but one overly idolized by BSPN and SI who feasted on pathetic East for years and never had to go through Shaq or Kobe or even Suns or even now Clips to get to finals and remains 4-6 in those despite peripatetic ways and setting things up to win as much as possible. Finally based on his ageless performance, his lack of injuries and his build will always be suspicious he is using something. Give me Duncan starting a team period better winner and like Russell that is what counts.

[Dirks_Finale]

proof?:lol

[Rummpd]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YaKILPV78DU

Not proof but lays out what many feel may be true

[lefty]

Jordan took PEDs too tbh

[Seventyniner]

If LeBron's Cavs and Heat were in the West and Duncan's Spurs were in the East for their respective careers, would Duncan have had more Finals appearances than LeBron? The East has been the inferior conference for a long time.

[JamStone]

If LeBron's Cavs and Heat were in the West and Duncan's Spurs were in the East for their respective careers, would Duncan have had more Finals appearances than LeBron? The East has been the inferior conference for a long time.

The if game is somewhat charming and fun, but also unverifiable conjecture to give the impression it’s pseudo fact or a real argument based on real facts. It’s neither. Wait... oh but if LeBron played in the West. And if Jordan was born 10 years earlier and his 90s prime was in the Magic-Bird dominated 80s. Well if Allen Iverson were 6’6.

If changes facts. If is not reality. If is fiction.

So flip it and consider a different if.

If Duncan were drafted by Cleveland and LeBron drafted by San Antonio, would Duncan have stayed in Cleveland his entire career and finished with zero titles, and would LeBron have hopped from team to team even after winning multiple rings with the Spurs?

If whatever changes, can LeBron please not be as good as he’s been... *tear*

[Rummpd]

Jordan took PEDs too tbh

May have

[FrostKing]

Ray Allen miracle from being 0-3

[FrostKing]

Jordan took PEDs too tbh
At the Poker table

[Neo.]

May have

i love how its "may have" when theres no proof with mj, but with lebron its an absolute certainty despite there also being no proof :rollin

[Neo.]

Ray Allen miracle from being 0-3

0-3 at what?

[Rummpd]

i love how its "may have" when theres no proof with mj, but with lebron its an absolute certainty despite there also being no proof :rollin

LBJ defying age with a build far superior to Jordan and the ability to use these agents and get away with it is likely higher. Why the love of LBJ?

[Neo.]

LBJ defying age with a build far superior to Jordan and the ability to use these agents and get away with it is likely higher. Why the love of LBJ?

i never said lebron didn't or doesn't use. i honestly dont know. i understand why people might think he is. however, with there being no proof, i have no reason to think he is. he honestly just seems like a freakish natural athlete, like bo jackson. some people are simply like that. and at this point of his career, its not just his athleticism that gets him by, hes simply smarter than everyone he plays against, and that's always been probably his best basketball quality. even in games, he doesnt just mindlessly throw his body around wrecklessly, hes very careful and calculated in his approach to the game, especially during the regular season.

we also know its well documented that lebron has a level of focus to his diet, workout, routines, etc... that few people have ever seen before

would i be shocked if he used PEDs? no. but then again, i wouldn't be shocked if 98% of athletes have used PEDs at some point of their career, including timmy.

[lefty]

Ray Allen miracle from being 0-3

Jordan was bailed out by Kerr. Paxson, Armstrong and Stern , find another narrative:lol

[lefty]

At worst, LeBron is a top 4 player in NBA history, depending how you view Wilt. Top 3 with Jordan and Kareem is legitimate. At best, Duncan is bottom half of top 10, probably closer to 10 than 5.

Whatever “gap” you think there is, however great or small you believe, the gap is there and it’s real and it’s significant enough that it’s clear LeBron had a greater career. Duncan’s career is great, HOF, one of a handful of the very best. LeBron’s career should go down as one of the top 2-3 best careers ever, even with his Finals record.

You can talk about steroids all you want. Dwyane Wade looked like he juiced too with his Family Guy cartoon jawline. He didn’t have a top 10 NBA career, let alone a top 3. Joakim Noah, Rashard Lewis, Lindsey Hunter, Hedo Turkogku, OJ Mayo, Darius Miles... all suspended by the league for some form of PED use. You don’t see any of those guys getting casted for a Hall of Fame bust. The athletic freaks like Stromile Swift and Corey Maggette never were in position to chase down Jordan and Kareem. Steroids or not, if a player doesn’t have the skill and IQ and will to match, then that player doesn’t do what LeBron has done for 17 seasons.

The four years Duncan led the league in defensive rating, he finished 4th, 6th, 3rd, and 6th in DPOY voting, not even one top 2 finish. In 2007, he has an argument in third place with Camby winning the award that he could have maybe won it. The other three years he wasn’t even a legitimate contender for the award, let alone was robbed of it. Defensive rating is a nice stat to look at as long as you understand that it’s at least partially dependent on the performance of teammates and the team as a whole. The better your teammates are defensively and how the team defends collectively really impact a stat like DR. Could Duncan have won a DPOY in his career? Sure. He was good enough defensively. Was the voting messed up? Sure, just like the League MVP where guys like Nash and Curry are multiple winners and Shaq only has one. It is what it is. You shouldn’t make arguments that a player be considered better because he “should have” won an award he didn’t win. It’s a shitty argument.

Where do you rank Bird and Magic?

[Rummpd]

Kareem - real GOAT from UCLA on
Jordan
Russell
Wilt - could flip with Russell but rings count at least some
Bird - can move down 2 but at his best is here
LBJ
Duncan
Magic - career shortened or a spot or two higher
Big O
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem

[FrostKing]

Kareem - real GOAT from UCLA on
Jordan
Russell
Wilt - could flip with Russell but rings count at least some
Bird - can move down 2 but at his best is here
LBJ
Duncan
Magic - career shortened or a spot or two higher
Big O
Shaq
Kobe
Hakeem
I like your list

Magic or LeBron is the decision. I have Bird still above both but it is close. Larry and Duncan are still the gold standard for Forwards but LeBron has opportunity to overtake.

[JamStone]

Where do you rank Bird and Magic?

Somewhere in the 5-7 range for both.

I view the two having very similar careers, similar individual success, similar team success, careers similarly cut short (Magic actually played more regular season games than Bird in the same number of seasons), similar cult impact on the game. I’d probably have Magic edge Bird slightly because I think at his height playing lead guard was revolutionary at the time. But I would not argue much with anyone suggesting Bird was better. I think the two are a coin toss tbh.

[Bynumite]

Lebron is more talented than Duncan. And besides rings, Lebron has pretty much surpassed Duncan in every other category accomplishment wise. So I wouldn't mind someone saying Lebron is higher all time. But if I had to start a team? I'm picking Duncan. Duncan's loyal while Lebron's going to team hop the second he can.

If you're starting a new team, statistically you'd be better off betting on the guy that did it on 3 separate teams, just saying :lol

[lefty]

Somewhere in the 5-7 range for both.

I view the two having very similar careers, similar individual success, similar team success, careers similarly cut short (Magic actually played more regular season games than Bird in the same number of seasons), similar cult impact on the game. I’d probably have Magic edge Bird slightly because I think at his height playing lead guard was revolutionary at the time. But I would not argue much with anyone suggesting Bird was better. I think the two are a coin toss tbh.

Fair enough
Prime for prime I have Bird and I rank him higher
But again as you said, if’s are hypothetical

[Kawhitstorm]

Jordan was bailed out by Kerr. Paxson, Armstrong and Stern , find another narrative:lol

Jordan made them a household name. Can’t say the same for Bosh/Wade/Allen, Kyrie/Love/JR or Davis/Rondo/Dwert.

[Rummpd]

If you're starting a new team, statistically you'd be better off betting on the guy that did it on 3 separate teams, just saying :lol

Stacking the deck in advance or even missing playoffs till savior AD arrived.

[lefty]

Jordan made them a household name. Can’t say the same for Bosh/Wade/Allen, Kyrie/Love/JR or Davis/Rondo/Dwert.

Let’s see , Lebron got bailed out by a HOFer

Jordan got bailed out by one dimensional scrubs like BJ, Paxson or Kerr
That’s not better :lol

[Seventyniner]

The if game is somewhat charming and fun, but also unverifiable conjecture to give the impression it’s pseudo fact or a real argument based on real facts. It’s neither. Wait... oh but if LeBron played in the West. And if Jordan was born 10 years earlier and his 90s prime was in the Magic-Bird dominated 80s. Well if Allen Iverson were 6’6.

If changes facts. If is not reality. If is fiction.

So flip it and consider a different if.

If Duncan were drafted by Cleveland and LeBron drafted by San Antonio, would Duncan have stayed in Cleveland his entire career and finished with zero titles, and would LeBron have hopped from team to team even after winning multiple rings with the Spurs?

If whatever changes, can LeBron please not be as good as he’s been... *tear*

Good lord, all I did was ask a question. And make a statement that the numbers bear out. Calm down.

[Rummpd]

Meanwhile a couple of these greats went at it and of course no pass here

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nba-kobe-bryant-michael-jordan-final-game-laughing-joke-john-cusack-reveals-143227091.html

[JamStone]

Good lord, all I did was ask a question. And make a statement that the numbers bear out. Calm down.

All I did was respond with a post. Follow your own advice.

[Kawhitstorm]

Let’s see , Lebron got bailed out by a HOFer

Jordan got bailed out by one dimensional scrubs like BJ, Paxson or Kerr
That’s not better :lol

It’s not a bailout when it’s a designed play. Meanwhile, LeBrat got bailed out by Ray Allen & ran to the corner after he handed the rock to Kyrie so he could improvise.:lol

[lefty]

It’s not a bailout when it’s a designed play. Meanwhile, LeBrat got bailed out by Ray Allen & ran to the corner after he handed the rock to Kyrie so he could improvise.:lol

:lol « designated plays »

You forgot to mention that Lebron kept Miami in the game with a huge performance and a huge 3 before Ray’s shot, if not for that, Ray’s ahot would have been pointless :lol
Lebron also carried them in game 7

The Kyrie play was designated, the switch was on purpose because Steph couldn’t guard Kyrie, it’s called a favorable matchup. It’s the smart play and MJ would have been praised for his high BBIQ, fucking hypocrites :lol
or also conveniently forget to mention his clutch block and his all time performance during the series

[ambchang]

At this point there really are no arguments putting Lebron below magic or bird. And I magic and bird are my favourites.

Duncan has also bypassed both by most accounts. I can see points for both but when you look at the overall body of work Duncan > bird or magic.

[Neo.]

It’s not a bailout when it’s a designed play. Meanwhile, LeBrat got bailed out by Ray Allen & ran to the corner after he handed the rock to Kyrie so he could improvise.:lol

4>2
4>2
4>0

[Neo.]

:lol « designated plays »

You forgot to mention that Lebron kept Miami in the game with a huge performance and a huge 3 before Ray’s shot, if not for that, Ray’s ahot would have been pointless :lol
Lebron also carried them in game 7

The Kyrie play was designated, the switch was on purpose because Steph couldn’t guard Kyrie, it’s called a favorable matchup. It’s the smart play and MJ would have been praised for his high BBIQ, fucking hypocrites :lol
or also conveniently forget to mention his clutch block and his all time performance during the series

must have been nice to be able to consistently take clutch shots on midgets and mediocre defenders like byron russell, craig ehlo, john starks, and dan majerle tbh, as opposed to elite defenders with size strength and length like kawhi, pg, tony allen, jimmy, iggy, etc...

[lefty]

must have been nice to be able to consistently take clutch shots on midgets and mediocre defenders like byron russell, craig ehlo, john starks, and dan majerle tbh, as opposed to elite defenders with size strength and length like kawhi, pg, tony allen, jimmy, iggy, etc...

But Jordan’s will to win! Tuff defense! Intense game face! Herp Derp!

[Kawhitstorm]

You forgot to mention that Lebron kept Miami in the game with a huge performance and a huge 3 before Ray’s shot, if not for that, Ray’s ahot would have been pointless :lol

Yeah, I forgot to mention how 40 year old Ray Allen carried the “GOAT” who was wetting the bed for a majority of the game & series till that point.


The Kyrie play was designated, the switch was on purpose because Steph couldn’t guard Kyrie, it’s called a favorable matchup

Yeah, LeBrick couldn’t score when Curry switched on him in the last 4 minutes :lmao


also conveniently forget to mention his clutch block

Impressive chasing down Iggy who was playing with a broken back. :wow

[lefty]

1 :lol 40 y old Ray Allen was better than younger Paxson, Armstrong and Kerr
2 :lol clearly you didn’t watch the series
3 :lol broken back Iggy still a superior athlete than any healthy plumber Jordan guarded

[Kawhitstorm]

2 :lol clearly you didn’t watch the series

Big Dummy, I’m well aware LeBrat/Kyrie were running a train on Ezeli/Curry after Bogut/Iggy got injured (along with being gifted Gm 5) which is actually what makes the final 4 minutes embarrassing. The fact is that LeBrick bitched out in the last 4 minutes when push came the shove & handed the keys to Kyrie during the possession with the highest stake then literally stood in the corner. Dude followed it up by rolling on the floor like he got shot b/c he needed an alibi for missing FTs.:baby:baby


broken back Iggy still a superior athlete than any healthy plumber Jordan guarded

TOSB Danny would have blocked broke back Iggy :sleep

[Robz4000]

At worst, LeBron is a top 4 player in NBA history, depending how you view Wilt. Top 3 with Jordan and Kareem is legitimate. At best, Duncan is bottom half of top 10, probably closer to 10 than 5.

Whatever “gap” you think there is, however great or small you believe, the gap is there and it’s real and it’s significant enough that it’s clear LeBron had a greater career. Duncan’s career is great, HOF, one of a handful of the very best. LeBron’s career should go down as one of the top 2-3 best careers ever, even with his Finals record.

You can talk about steroids all you want. Dwyane Wade looked like he juiced too with his Family Guy cartoon jawline. He didn’t have a top 10 NBA career, let alone a top 3. Joakim Noah, Rashard Lewis, Lindsey Hunter, Hedo Turkogku, OJ Mayo, Darius Miles... all suspended by the league for some form of PED use. You don’t see any of those guys getting casted for a Hall of Fame bust. The athletic freaks like Stromile Swift and Corey Maggette never were in position to chase down Jordan and Kareem. Steroids or not, if a player doesn’t have the skill and IQ and will to match, then that player doesn’t do what LeBron has done for 17 seasons.

The four years Duncan led the league in defensive rating, he finished 4th, 6th, 3rd, and 6th in DPOY voting, not even one top 2 finish. In 2007, he has an argument in third place with Camby winning the award that he could have maybe won it. The other three years he wasn’t even a legitimate contender for the award, let alone was robbed of it. Defensive rating is a nice stat to look at as long as you understand that it’s at least partially dependent on the performance of teammates and the team as a whole. The better your teammates are defensively and how the team defends collectively really impact a stat like DR. Could Duncan have won a DPOY in his career? Sure. He was good enough defensively. Was the voting messed up? Sure, just like the League MVP where guys like Nash and Curry are multiple winners and Shaq only has one. It is what it is. You shouldn’t make arguments that a player be considered better because he “should have” won an award he didn’t win. It’s a shitty argument.


Duncan's closer to 5 than 10 imo, but otherwise I agree with this.

[midnightpulp]

I honestly think player debates are obsolete now. They probably should've always been. Eras are so dramatically different from one another, with each era favoring different skillsets. Players like Shaq and Duncan would be marginalized in today's NBA. They didn't have much range and probably couldn't guard the modern pick-and-roll. They'd be all-star level, but not the dominant forces they were. On the other hand, players like Nikola Jokic wouldn't be +6 RPM players in the late-90/early-00s. Weak post game by that era's standards and his passing game would be negatively affected by the congested spacing of that period. And guys like Duncan Robinson would be driving a truck back then.

[Rummpd]

[QUOTE=midnightpulp;10303621]I honestly think player debates are obsolete now. They probably should've always been. Eras are so dramatically different from one another, with each era favoring different skillsets. Players like Shaq and Duncan would be marginalized in today's NBA. They didn't have much range and probably couldn't guard the modern pick-and-roll. They'd be all-star level, but not the dominant forces they were. On the other hand, players like Nikola Jokic wouldn't be +6 RPM players in the late-90/early-00s. Weak post game by that era's standards and his passing game would be negatively affected by the congested spacing of that period. And guys like Duncan Robinson would be driving a truck back then.

You don’t think Duncan who hit top of key twos with ease could adapt? and Robinson would be unstoppable as even better athlete and skilled Greek freak. Even Shaq early on was very quick but would struggle more.

[midnightpulp]

You don’t think Duncan who hit top of key twos with ease could adapt? and Robinson would be unstoppable as even better athlete and skilled Greek freak. Even Shaq early on was very quick but would struggle more.

David Robinson probably has the best athletic toolkit to dominate in today's era from the 90s centers. His makeup is ideal, actually. He would be able to switch on anyone, get to the rim at will with all the spacing, and if he learned how to shoot a 3, he'd reign as a top 3 player in this era for awhile. David's issue back then was that he didn't like to play back to the basket. Bigs having a post game is unimportant today, so that wouldn't be a problem.

Duncan might be able to adapt, but that additional 3 or 4 feet of range is sometimes tough to develop.

[TDMVPDPOY]

realgm top 100 2020 thread, has lecheat no.1, dk no.2, kareem no.3, russell no.4, duncan no.5 atm

[Michael Jordan.]

Poor lefty

[Michael Jordan.]

Jordan took PEDs too tbh
Your mom took this performance enhancing dick

[Michael Jordan.]

Let’s see , Lebron got bailed out by a HOFer

Jordan got bailed out by one dimensional scrubs like BJ, Paxson or Kerr
That’s not better :lol
And still would have a winning finals record. You are missing the point. No Kyrie or Bosh to secure the rebound and pass it to Ray those are two more direct finals losses.

[lefty]

Your mom took this performance enhancing dick
Clearly you took it too


And still would have a winning finals record. You are missing the point. No Kyrie or Bosh to secure the rebound and pass it to Ray those are two more direct finals losses.

Every superstar needs help, it's not 1 vs 5
Get over it

[Michael Jordan.]

Clearly you took it too



Every superstar needs help, it's not 1 vs 5
Get over it
Not every superstar handpicks and forces best talent in the league to get to their team because they have a losing record in the finals :lol

[lefty]

Not every superstar handpicks and forces best talent in the league to get to their team because they have a losing record in the finals :lol
Jordan couldn't do that because the CBA was different back, but if he could he would have
He was constantly throwing the FO under the bus

And at the end of the day he had MVPippen, Grant, Stern, Rodman, the best 6th man and the best international player at the time in Kukoc, shit opposition in the Finals and wasn't coached by Tyronn Lue or Mike Br:lolwn

[Michael Jordan.]

Higher ranked player Wade or Pippen?

[Michael Jordan.]

Higher ranked player Pippen or AD?

[lefty]

Pippen of course

Part of the OG Dream Team, the gretest basketball team ever assembled

[Michael Jordan.]

Had D-Wade AND Bosh. Lost in 6 :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

24-0 as the favorite all time. No game 7’s in the finals.

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15116062/2012/02/71969874_81.jpg?w=594

[Michael Jordan.]

1320799859960631298

Damn.

[Neo.]

weak competition tbh

[Michael Jordan.]

Quick question. Does LeBron lose with Pippen in the finals? Shit he lost with Wade :lmao

[Michael Jordan.]

weak competition tbh
Because Goran Dragic is top notch competition :lol

[Neo.]

Quick question. Does LeBron lose with Pippen in the finals? Shit he lost with Wade :lmao

hard to say, when lebron faced much tougher competition with weaker teams than you, while you were busy being taken to 7 by teams with dynamic duos of ewing/starks and reggie/smits :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Neo.]

Because Goran Dragic is top notch competition :lol

the only weak finals opponent he ever faced. :lol blazers :lol lakers

[Neo.]

Because Goran Dragic is top notch competition :lol

and easily a better #2 than starks or smits :lmao

[Rummpd]

the only weak finals opponent he ever faced. :lol blazers :lol lakers

How can anyone keep defending LeBron who granted is a very top tier player of all time but..?

[Michael Jordan.]

the only weak finals opponent he ever faced. :lol blazers :lol lakers
And got taken to 6 games even with a Prime AD :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

and easily a better #2 than starks or smits :lmao
How many times has LeBron lost as the 1 seed?

[Michael Jordan.]

How can anyone keep defending LeBron who granted is a very top tier player of all time but..?
They gotta find a reason to excuse 6 finals losses

[lefty]

Because Goran Dragic is top notch competition :lol

Jordan would have been skullfucked by the 2014 Spurs or 2016 Warriors :lol

[lefty]

the only weak finals opponent he ever faced. :lol blazers :lol lakers

:lol Suns
:lol decrepit white Jazz

[Michael Jordan.]

Jordan would have been skullfucked by the 2014 Spurs or 2016 Warriors :lol
Bogut going down changed the dynamic of the series playa. Keep shouting though.

[Michael Jordan.]

:lol Suns
:lol decrepit white Jazz
Bron has a losing record in the finals to:

Curry
Klay
Duncan
Dirk

[FrostKing]

If Lebron played in the 90s; Barkley, Malone, Stockton and Ewing would all have rings today

[Michael Jordan.]

Shit has Bron even ever had a dynasty?

[Neo.]

And got taken to 6 games even with a Prime AD :lol

beats being taken to 7 by starks with a prime pippen


How many times has LeBron lost as the 1 seed?

more times than he should have. no ones defending that.


Bron has a losing record in the finals to:

Curry
Klay
Duncan
Dirk

duncan is a top 10, maybe top 5 player ever

steph and dirk are top 20 players ever and > than any of the superstars mike beat


If Lebron played in the 90s; Barkley, Malone, Stockton and Ewing would all have rings today

if mike played in the 00s and 10s he would be ringless

[FrostKing]

Shit has Bron even ever had a dynasty?
The great Dwight Howard stood in the way

[lefty]

Bron has a losing record in the finals to:

Curry
Klay
Duncan
Dirk

who played for much better teams than Jordan ever faces in the Finals
Thanks for proving my point :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

The great Dwight Howard stood in the way
:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Michael Jordan.]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/5c7b1358456007a70eca758c39bc1e21/tenor.gif?itemid=18244457

[Michael Jordan.]

1318923138420310016

who had an 8 points final game?

[LkrFan]

lol whining about "loyalty" when timmy quit on an entire country because things didn't go his way :rollin
Maybe we should compare Bron to AD?
https://twitter.com/Lakers/status/1320849797335560192?s=19

AD > Jim :toast

[LkrFan]

Shit has Bron even ever had a dynasty?
Has Jordan ever beaten a super team in the Finals? No
Has Bron ever beaten a super team in the Finals? Yes

;)

[Michael Jordan.]

Nigga, I WAS the super team :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

LeBron sure as shit has lost with a superteam

[LkrFan]

LeBron sure as shit has lost with a superteam
Bron beat a 73-9 team in the Finals. :toast

[LkrFan]

Nigga, I WAS the super team :lol
Not until Bird's back went out :lol

[Michael Jordan.]

Bron beat a 73-9 team in the Finals. :toast
Correction: Without Bogut. Now proceed

[Michael Jordan.]

He has no dynasty. Couldn’t stop dynasties. Each time he failed to stop one he joined another team :lol

lost to Boston, joined Miami
lost to SA, went back to Cleveland with Kyrie
lost to GS, Joined LA
https://media1.tenor.com/images/a5b70253d9957700d3a9839d3478c2a5/tenor.gif?itemid=11603086

[Michael Jordan.]

This nigga needed Wade and Bosh to beat Boston. All Kobe needed Gasol and that crackhead Odom :lol

[i'm_still_beta]

Jordan vs Derozan a lot closer than ESPN or SI would assume

[Neo.]

:lmao obsessing over a guy who you feel is no threat to the GOAT claim

[Michael Jordan.]

:lmao obsessing over a guy who you feel is no threat to the GOAT claim
Naw brotha. I love to trigger LeBron cocksuckers.

[Michael Jordan.]

Done let this man get TWO rings

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F_Djc-gnmOo/U5fQ934WyMI/AAAAAAAAHaA/_KJ6nAzHuds/s1600/3.gif

[LkrFan]

Correction: Without Bogut. Now proceed
2015: no Kyrie or Kevin Love
2017: 73-9 + KD
2018: 73-9 + KD

1987 Lakers > 2017 Dubs > 2018 Dubs > 1996 Bulls

Big Facts :toast

[LkrFan]

Done let this man get TWO rings

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-F_Djc-gnmOo/U5fQ934WyMI/AAAAAAAAHaA/_KJ6nAzHuds/s1600/3.gif
:lol

He's light one of KD and Klay playedPERIOD and you know it. Funny gif tho :lol

[LkrFan]

This nigga needed Wade and Bosh to beat Boston. All Kobe needed Gasol and that crackhead Odom :lol
Damb :lmao

:lol Bron beat Boston
:lol Jordan NEVER did

[Michael Jordan.]

Damb :lmao
:lol Bron beat Boston
:lol Jordan NEVER did
Bron also got his cookie taken by the a tall white man. Wasn’t no McHale on that team either :lol

[Neo.]

Naw brotha. I love to trigger LeBron cocksuckers.

you should probably worry about your disaster of teams down in houston

:lmao harden
:lmao altuve
:lmao :lmao texans

[daslicer]

Damb :lmao

:lol Bron beat Boston
:lol Jordan NEVER did

But Jordan beat LA which is something Lebron will never do.

[LkrFan]

But Jordan beat LA which is something Lebron will never do.
He beat the Lakers who were without Kareem and we were starting a rookie named Divac at center. Let's put some context into this debate. :tu

[daslicer]

He beat the Lakers who were without Kareem and we were starting a rookie named Divac at center. Let's put some context into this debate. :tu

He still beat Magic. That's what most people remember about it.

[LkrFan]

1320799859960631298

Damn.He did that during unprecedented NBA expansion. :lol


Show 1984 to 1991. Guarantee you he lost 3 in a row a few times. Especially in 1986 when Bird bent him over in the first round 3 times in a row :rollin :lmao :rollin

[LkrFan]

He still beat Magic. That's what most people remember about it.

Magic beat Bird twice in the Finals. Bird beat Jordan at least twice in the playoffs during the same timeframe. Verdict: Magic > Bird > Jordan. :tu

[lefty]

He did that during unprecedented NBA expansion. :lol


Show 1984 to 1991. Guarantee you he lost 3 in a row a few times. Especially in 1986 when Bird bent him over in the first round 3 times in a row :rollin :lmao :rollin

[lefty]

Jordan vs Derozan a lot closer than ESPN or SI would assume

True true
Jordan should be proud, he knows he would be starting for a team that almost made the playoffs if he played today

[Rummpd]

Has Jordan ever beaten a super team in the Finals? No
Has Bron ever beaten a super team in the Finals? Yes

;)

Standing up for the indefensible as it was Irving who carried the Cavs as LBJ as usual retreated from being clutch just like Ray Allen saved him - move on thanks

[Michael Jordan.]

4-6

[TD 21]

yes they were frugle, but they were so well ran and coached they were able to be. they found two HOFs to support timmy at the end of the first and in the second rounds. pop did a wonderful job of finding hidden gems of role players for cheap, and maximizing their potential. they have without question been the most well ran organization in basketball (until the kawhi drama) for 20 years or so.

one could counter your argument, that if you give timmy a disaster of an organization like cleveland, new york, or philly, he finishes with no rings, unless he leaves the team for something better. or that if lebron was given the GOAT coach and the most well ran franchise professional basketball has ever seen, he already has 6+ rings.

No one said a thing about the "Spurs organization" until after his arrival and now suddently after the fact pople want to pretend he walked into what they became under him?

He dispelled this notion before it even began by doing what he did from '97-'04 (early 00s in particular). He carried teams offensively ranging from aging to in transition, with zero reliable perimeter creation throughout and eventually no second superstar/star period, to 2 championships and perennial contender status.

For some reason his prime is seemingly forgotten by non Spurs fans, who remember him as the old, one legged version from the "beautiful game" years and think the team always played that style.

[Neo.]

No one said a thing about the "Spurs organization" until after his arrival and now suddently after the fact pople want to pretend he walked into what they became under him?

judging by the fact that they have 9 out of 53 sub .500 seasons in franchise history, obviously they have been extremely well run for a long time.

additionally, for 5 of the 7 seasons before tim was drafted, they won over 55 games. yes, he absolutely walked into a great situation. its not discrediting him and what he did. but by no means did he enter anything remotely resembling the pathetic excuse of a franchise that cleveland was when lebron was drafted


He dispelled this notion before it even began by doing what he did from '97-'04 (early 00s in particular). He carried teams offensively ranging from aging to in transition, with zero reliable perimeter creation throughout and eventually no second superstar/star period, to 2 championships and perennial contender status.

yes and in terms of general level of talent and competition, those also happened to be some of the weakest years in the past 40 years. aside from the shaq/kobe lakers, most of the best teams in that timeframe would be middle tier teams at best over the past decade or in the 80s.

he did a great job, but thats quite frankly a major reason why he was able to carry a team with less top tier talent than usual. can anyone honestly think that the 99 or 03 spurs would stand a chance against the big-4 spurs, brons heat/cavs/lakers, kd/russ thunder, or the splash bros warriors? aside from homer spurfans that is.


For some reason his prime is seemingly forgotten by non Spurs fans, who remember him as the old, one legged version from the "beautiful game" years and think the team always played that style.

yeah i agree people forget how great timmy truly was. IMO, hes a top 5 player ever. but he also had a very good situation around him that most players simply don't get.

[TD 21]

judging by the fact that they have 9 out of 53 sub .500 seasons in franchise history, obviously they have been extremely well run for a long time.

additionally, for 5 of the 7 seasons before tim was drafted, they won over 55 games. yes, he absolutely walked into a great situation. its not discrediting him and what he did. but by no means did he enter anything remotely resembling the pathetic excuse of a franchise that cleveland was when lebron was drafted



yes and in terms of general level of talent and competition, those also happened to be some of the weakest years in the past 40 years. aside from the shaq/kobe lakers, most of the best teams in that timeframe would be middle tier teams at best over the past decade or in the 80s.

he did a great job, but thats quite frankly a major reason why he was able to carry a team with less top tier talent than usual. can anyone honestly think that the 99 or 03 spurs would stand a chance against the big-4 spurs, brons heat/cavs/lakers, kd/russ thunder, or the splash bros warriors? aside from homer spurfans that is.



yeah i agree people forget how great timmy truly was. IMO, hes a top 5 player ever. but he also had a very good situation around him that most players simply don't get.

That's generally what happens when you luck into superstars.

No, but the Spurs weren't the Spurs before Duncan and attempting to revise history to pretend they were is dinsingenous and discredits him.

So aside from arguably the second greatest duo ever (who he went through twice and probably would have been thrice if not for the shady .4 decision), he supposedly faced weak competition, but James, who went the better part of a decade not having to deal with a legit contender in the East, didn't?

Johnson, Bryant, Scumbag, etc. all walked into great situations and I never hear it thrown in their faces. O'Neal perennially played with an All-Star 1st team guard in his prime, somehow that never gets brought up either.

[lefty]

Has Jordan ever beaten a super team in the Finals? No
Has Bron ever beaten a super team in the Finals? Yes

;)

[Kawhitstorm]

Jordan couldn't do that because the CBA was different back, but if he could he would have
He was constantly throwing the FO under the bus

Kareem literally forced his way out of Milwaukee & Barkley followed suit so it had nothing to do with the CBA. He could have been a ring chaser like Clyde & asked to be traded had he been a chump.

Jordan could have left town in ‘88 after his rookie contract ala Shaq & there was nothing preventing him from signing with the Knicks in ‘96 rather than carrying the corpse of Pippen. Meanwhile, LeBrat abandoned Wade the second he got a chance.:lol

[Neo.]

That's generally what happens when you luck into superstars.

No, but the Spurs weren't the Spurs before Duncan and attempting to revise history to pretend they were is dinsingenous and discredits him.

calm down, no one said they were as good of a franchise before his arrival. im not discrediting him in any way, and never was. but they were a better run franchise than most, especially cleveland, which was the comparison to begin with. if you honestly think pre-timmy they were remotely as poorly ran as cleveland was when lebron arrived, then idk what to say to you, other than this conversation would be over


So aside from arguably the second greatest duo ever (who he went through twice and probably would have been thrice if not for the shady .4 decision), he supposedly faced weak competition, but James, who went the better part of a decade not having to deal with a legit contender in the East, didn't?

while some of the teams lebron faced in the east for a few of those years werent exactly great, they were better than some people give them credit for being, and have comparable talent levels to mid-upper tier teams from 98-03 (the Raptors and Pacers had very solid, balanced squads). and then we are forgetting he still had to face off against the top west team each year. again, big-4 spurs, big-3 thunder, warriors all were incomparably superior to any team during those years, except maybe shaq/kobe lakers, which if we really took a closer look at that team, i think people might rethink how good they actually were, or if they too were the product of weak competition... everyone talks about how lousy the supporting cast was for Bron/AD, but if you really compare the two, its arguable the shaq/kobe teams actually had a weaker supporting cast, and i think its reasonably questionable as to whether they would ring against the depth of modern teams, or the great 80s teams.


Johnson, Bryant, Scumbag, etc. all walked into great situations and I never hear it thrown in their faces. O'Neal perennially played with an All-Star 1st team guard in his prime, somehow that never gets brought up either.

are you kidding??? :lmao what rock do you live under? plenty of people bring up those facts. and who sits around throwing it in timmys face? i almost never hear that except for when people are trolling overly sensitive spurfans like you.

regardless in the end, it really doesnt matter. the vast majority of all-time greats were drafted or signed into great situations. about the only one who didnt, was lebron. mikes didn't start well but got really good pretty quickly, krause catches a lot of flack for being weird, but he built a really well balanced team that fit perfectly around mike. he literally could not have had a team more perfectly built for him.

however, i do wonder how differently things might have turned out if boozer didnt leave. i do think that messed things up quite a bit. he either could have been a nice supporting piece, or a good trade piece.

[Neo.]

Kareem literally forced his way out of Milwaukee & Barkley followed suit so it had nothing to do with the CBA. He could have been a ring chaser like Clyde & asked to be traded had he been a chump.

Jordan could have left town in ‘88 after his rookie contract ala Shaq & there was nothing preventing him from signing with the Knicks in ‘96 rather than carrying the corpse of Pippen. Meanwhile, LeBrat abandoned Wade the second he got a chance.:lol

no he just threatened repeatedly to retire from basketball unless they got him more pieces

and then he actually did retire and left his team hanging, realized they were fine without him and that kukoc and pippen were a pretty good duo, came back to try to prove something and then begged rodman to come help him beat shaq bc he knew he had no chance otherwise

at least lebron played out all of his contracts to completion

[Kawhitstorm]

no he just threatened repeatedly to retire from basketball unless they got him more pieces

and then he actually did retire and left his team hanging, realized they were fine without him and that kukoc and pippen were a pretty good duo, came back to try to prove something and then begged rodman to come help him beat shaq bc he knew he had no chance otherwise

at least lebron played out all of his contracts to completion

Yeah, LeBrat quit on the court multiple times & played out all his 1 year contracts while saddling the teams with shitty contracts repped by his Ponzi scheme agency.:lol

[FrostKing]

Michael Jordan never kneeled

/thread

[lefty]

Michael Jordan never kneeled

/thread
He kneeled in front of his masters Bird, Zeke, Sichting and big corporations

[Neo.]

Yeah, LeBrat quit on the court multiple times & played out all his 1 year contracts while saddling the teams with shitty contracts repped by his Ponzi scheme agency.:lol

:lmao remember all those times Mike quit on his team by refusing the pass the ball to them? or when he quit on bill cartwright by telling teammates not to pass specifically to him? :lmao :lmao or refusing to play any defense at all so that he can rack up 63 points and look like a "god" but repeatedly leave his teammates hanging? :rollin @ thinking bron is selfish when Mike maybe quit on his team more than any player in history in order to do selfish things :lmao

or how about when he had to have Phil ask him repeatedly"who's open Mike" so that he would stop quitting on his teammates and pass it to wide open shooters? was he too stupid to pass? or called out for quitting on teammates while trying to protect a 3-1 lead? :lmao :lmao

[Neo.]

Michael Jordan never kneeled

/thread

he kneeled to mcdonald's nike and sprite

[Kawhitstorm]

:lmao remember all those times Mike quit on his team by refusing the pass the ball to them? or when he quit on bill cartwright by telling teammates not to pass specifically to him? :lmao :lmao or refusing to play any defense at all so that he can rack up 63 points and look like a "god" but repeatedly leave his teammates hanging? :rollin @ thinking bron is selfish when Mike maybe quit on his team more than any player in history in order to do selfish things :lmao

or how about when he had to have Phil ask him repeatedly"who's open Mike" so that he would stop quitting on his teammates and pass it to wide open shooters? was he too stupid to pass? or called out for quitting on teammates while trying to protect a 3-1 lead? :lmao :lmao

“Jordan quit b/c he wouldn’t pass the ball to the great Cartwright” :lmao

What’s next, Iverson quit on the Sixers by refusing to pass the ball to Dikembe :lmao

12 points, 2-of-18 shooting, 9 rebounds, 9 assists, 10 turnovers, -0.7 game score


"He quit," Gilbert said. "Not just in Game 5, but in Games 2, 4 and 6. Watch the tape. The Boston series was unlike anything in the history of sports for a superstar."

[Neo.]

“Jordan quit b/c he wouldn’t pass the ball to the great Cartwright” :lmao

What’s next, Iverson quit on the Sixers by refusing to pass the ball to Dikembe :lmao

12 points, 2-of-18 shooting, 9 rebounds, 9 assists, 10 turnovers, -0.7 game score


"lebron quit because his team was a disaster due to the coach allowing an out-of-control environment to exist which prevented them from having any chance against the Celtics superteam regardless of lebron putting up 27/9/7 while mo williams, antawn jamison and delonte west somehow suddenly forgot how to play basketball"

yawn

and you're still deflecting from the true matter at hand.

kashi is TRASH :rollin blowing a 3-1 lead :lmao needing to pose as a Mike fan in order to express your insecure feelings about lebron bc kawhi has NO argument whatsoever aside from piggybacking as a 4th option to a title :lmao :lmao

[Kawhitstorm]

"lebron quit because his team was a disaster due to the coach allowing an out-of-control environment to exist which prevented them from having any chance against the Celtics superteam regardless of lebron putting up 27/9/7 while mo williams, antawn jamison and delonte west somehow suddenly forgot how to play basketball"

Is that why he shot 20/78 & commit 23 turnovers while Big Z/Wally were neutralizing KG/Ray?:frying:

What was the “out-of-control” environment? Delonte barebacking LeBrat’s mom?:lol #microdickenergy


kashi is TRASH :rollin blowing a 3-1 lead :lmao needing to pose as a Mike fan in order to express your insecure feelings about lebron bc kawhi has NO argument whatsoever aside from piggybacking as a 4th option to a title :lmao:lmao

He sure piggybacked LeBrat out of South Beach & then the Leastern Conference #100milesandstillrunning

Needing to pose as a LeBrat sympathizer in order to express your insecure feelings about Kiwi bc Giannis has NO argument whatsoever aside from two embarrassing playoff exists :lmao

[Neo.]

Is that why he shot 20/78 & commit 23 turnovers while Big Z/Wally were neutralizing KG/Ray?:frying:

What was the “out-of-control” environment? Delonte barebacking LeBrat’s mom?:lol #microdickenergy



He sure piggybacked LeBrat out of South Beach & then the Leastern Conference #100milesandstillrunning

Needing to pose as a LeBrat sympathizer in order to express your insecure feelings about Kiwi bc Giannis has NO argument whatsoever aside from two embarrassing playoff exists :lmao



:lmao thinking I care one bit about giannis vs kawhi im not even a bucks fan

:lmao thinking kawhi had anything at all to do with bron leaving miami or cleveland

:lmao locked up by jerami grant

:lmao anointed best most versatile defender ever couldn't remotely do anything with murray or jokic, while Bron easily bottled them up anytime he needed to as he cruised to an easy 5 game series win with an inferior supporting cast compared to kawhi :rollin

:lmao everyone knows prime bron mike or kobe easily wins 70+ and sweeps their way to a ring with that team

[TD 21]

calm down, no one said they were as good of a franchise before his arrival. im not discrediting him in any way, and never was. but they were a better run franchise than most, especially cleveland, which was the comparison to begin with. if you honestly think pre-timmy they were remotely as poorly ran as cleveland was when lebron arrived, then idk what to say to you, other than this conversation would be over



while some of the teams lebron faced in the east for a few of those years werent exactly great, they were better than some people give them credit for being, and have comparable talent levels to mid-upper tier teams from 98-03 (the Raptors and Pacers had very solid, balanced squads). and then we are forgetting he still had to face off against the top west team each year. again, big-4 spurs, big-3 thunder, warriors all were incomparably superior to any team during those years, except maybe shaq/kobe lakers, which if we really took a closer look at that team, i think people might rethink how good they actually were, or if they too were the product of weak competition... everyone talks about how lousy the supporting cast was for Bron/AD, but if you really compare the two, its arguable the shaq/kobe teams actually had a weaker supporting cast, and i think its reasonably questionable as to whether they would ring against the depth of modern teams, or the great 80s teams.



are you kidding??? :lmao what rock do you live under? plenty of people bring up those facts. and who sits around throwing it in timmys face? i almost never hear that except for when people are trolling overly sensitive spurfans like you.

regardless in the end, it really doesnt matter. the vast majority of all-time greats were drafted or signed into great situations. about the only one who didnt, was lebron. mikes didn't start well but got really good pretty quickly, krause catches a lot of flack for being weird, but he built a really well balanced team that fit perfectly around mike. he literally could not have had a team more perfectly built for him.

however, i do wonder how differently things might have turned out if boozer didnt leave. i do think that messed things up quite a bit. he either could have been a nice supporting piece, or a good trade piece.

What about that comment gave you the impression that I was anything but calm? And why is you having a debate just that but me doing it means it's an argument?

The Pacers and especially Raptors were the definition of paper tigers. The last true contender he faced in the East was probably the '10 Celtics. They were too old by '11 and '12 and the Bulls were merely a better version of the Pacers and Raptors.

Relative to the era, the O'Neal-Bryant Lakers weren't lacking talent, but by today's standards, yeah. The early 00s Spurs had even less talent though, yet remained perennial contenders and took them down in '03.

I only see that brought up by Spurs fans and I've seen countless non Spurs fans throw that in Duncan's face. These are the same idiots who think Garnett could have replaced him and they wouldn't have missed a beat.

I'm not overly sensitive, I just call it like I see it. You don't see me pretending Duncan is in the Jordan vs James discussion, so stop regurgitating things you've seen people who have a problem with my style say about me when they're all out of material.

[Kawhitstorm]

:lmao thinking I care one bit about giannis vs kawhi im not even a bucks fan

:lmao thinking kawhi had anything at all to do with bron leaving miami or cleveland

:lmao locked up by jerami grant

:lmao anointed best most versatile defender ever couldn't remotely do anything with murray or jokic, while Bron easily bottled them up anytime he needed to as he cruised to an easy 5 game series win with an inferior supporting cast compared to kawhi :rollin

:lmao everyone knows prime bron mike or kobe easily wins 70+ and sweeps their way to a ring with that team

-28% when not guarded by anyone not named Lou Williams/Marcus Morris :lmao

-Bubble championship :lmao

-LakerRefs :lmao

-Fair-weather Bucks fan :lmao

-Kirby got barebacked by Tayshaun Prince while he had peak Shaq on his squad rather than Playoff P :lmao

-LeBrat couldn’t even play wingman to PEAK Wade against Barea :lmao

-Jorn couldn’t do it against the Magic in another asterisk season :lmao

[Michael Jordan.]

Damn. LeBron’s first time to the playoffs he got Carried by Larry Hughes :lol

[Neo.]

-Bubble championship :lmao

-LakerRefs :lmao


:rollin resorting to this crybaby crap = your white flag









































:rollin :rollin :rollin actually whining about the bubble and "laker refs" :lmao :lmao

[Michael Jordan.]

Missing the playoffs three years in a row in the fucking East :lmao

[Neo.]

Missing the playoffs three years in a row in the fucking East :lmao

two years you illiterate moron :rollin

:lmao making the playoffs with 38 and 30 win seasons, apparently the league was even weaker in mikes day :lmao :lmao :lmao

[lefty]

two years you illiterate moron :rollin

:lmao making the playoffs with 38 and 30 win seasons, apparently the league was even weaker in mikes day :lmao :lmao :lmao

True true

[lefty]

Off topic but here is a pic of Bird swinging at Kobe's dad

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzF2zXnVQAADgJF?format=jpg&name=small

[Arcadian]

I rank Duncan above Lebron, personally. Mainly because he's the better franchise centerpiece. If you're starting a franchise, there's no better player in history to be your centerpiece than Tim. Also, I think big men are inherently more valuable than wings. Duncan is a better defensive anchor, in addition to quarterbacking the offense from the low post. He's the ultimate two-way superstar.

In terms of "gap" - there is virtually no gap. They're both in the top 5.

More importantly, they're both on the "all-time team." Magic, Jordan, James, Duncan, Kareem. That's your all-time starting five.

[Kawhitstorm]

actually whining about the bubble

Celebrating another team’s asterisk :lmao

*Condolences to Giannis signing with the Heat to “learn how to win” :cry

[daslicer]

I rank Duncan above Lebron, personally. Mainly because he's the better franchise centerpiece. If you're starting a franchise, there's no better player in history to be your centerpiece than Tim. Also, I think big men are inherently more valuable than wings. Duncan is a better defensive anchor, in addition to quarterbacking the offense from the low post. He's the ultimate two-way superstar.

In terms of "gap" - there is virtually no gap. They're both in the top 5.

More importantly, they're both on the "all-time team." Magic, Jordan, James, Duncan, Kareem. That's your all-time starting five.

In my eyes Duncan,Bird,Russell are the easiest guys to build a team around that are in the top 10. All 3 are low maintenance and are zero drama along with being great leaders.

[lefty]

In my eyes Duncan,Bird,Russell are the easiest guys to build a team around that are in the top 10. All 3 are low maintenance and are zero drama along with being great leaders.

And Magic

[FrostKing]

I rank Duncan above Lebron, personally. Mainly because he's the better franchise centerpiece. If you're starting a franchise, there's no better player in history to be your centerpiece than Tim. Also, I think big men are inherently more valuable than wings. Duncan is a better defensive anchor, in addition to quarterbacking the offense from the low post. He's the ultimate two-way superstar.

In terms of "gap" - there is virtually no gap. They're both in the top 5.

More importantly, they're both on the "all-time team." Magic, Jordan, James, Duncan, Kareem. That's your all-time starting five.
Bird over James. That team severely lacks outside shooting.

[lefty]

rep’ace Jordan with Kobe
Better 3 pt shooter , mote skilled scorer, better passer, taller, longer

[Rummpd]

rep’ace Jordan with Kobe
Better 3 pt shooter , mote skilled scorer, better passer, taller, longer

You are flat wrong - Kobe was a high volume gunner and way behind Jordan look at Kobe’s much lower PER and Jordan more consistently a great defender.

[lefty]

You are flat wrong - Kobe was a high volume gunner and way behind Jordan look at Kobe’s much lower PER and Jordan more consistently a great defender.
Jordan had Pippen take on the other team's star
Jordan was allowed to grab and karate kick guys like Craig Ehlo

[daslicer]

Jordan had Pippen take on the other team's star
Jordan was allowed to grab and karate kick guys like Craig Ehlo

If we are being honest the most popular stars are always allowed to get away with being physical on the defensive end. That's always been the case. Look at how Lebron was allowed to be physical with Jamal Murray and get away with fouling him.

[lefty]

If we are being honest the most popular stars are always allowed to get away with being physical on the defensive end. That's always been the case. Look at how Lebron was allowed to be physical with Jamal Murray and get away with fouling him.
True true, but nobody in the history of the NBA has gotten more ref protection than MJ, it's not even close, and most of the SG's Mike was guarding were utter shit

[lefty]

Bird over James. That team severely lacks outside shooting.
I agree that lineup needs a 3 pt shooter and a clutch player

[daslicer]

True true, but nobody in the history of the NBA has gotten more ref protection than MJ, it's not even close, and most of the SG's Mike was guarding were utter shit

Historically SG's tend to be one of the weakest positions in basketball. Look at ESPN's top 10 SG's of all time list:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankSGs/ranking-top-10-shooting-guards-ever

1.Jordan
2.Kobe
3.West
4.Wade
5.Drexler
6.AI
7.Gervin
8.Ray Allen
9.Reggie Miller
10. Earl Monroe

I see Klay and Harden taking Ray and Reggie's place on this list when their careers are over.

[lefty]

Historically SG's tend to be one of the weakest positions in basketball. Look at ESPN's top 10 SG's of all time list:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankSGs/ranking-top-10-shooting-guards-ever

1.Jordan
2.Kobe
3.West
4.Wade
5.Drexler
6.AI
7.Gervin
8.Ray Allen
9.Reggie Miller
10. Earl Monroe

I see Klay and Harden taking Ray and Reggie's place on this list when their careers are over.
Tha'ts true

BTW I think Klay is very underrated, makes big shots, great defensive player in an era where you are not allowed to touch the other guard - the only guard who has his number is Kyrie Irving

[daslicer]

Tha'ts true

BTW I think Klay is very underrated, makes big shots, great defensive player in an era where you are not allowed to touch the other guard - the only guard who has his number is Kyrie Irving

I felt for years prior to KD coming to the Warriors that he was the Warriors second best player. I still can't believe they were idiots that actually thought Draymond was better than him. Klay is very underrated on both ends of the court. Klay can easily get 20 plus points in any system and doesn't have to be the number 1 option to do it. He still manged to easily get 20 plus points per game playing as the third option. Even in this high pace era that's hard to do as a third option like he did with the Warriors from '17-'19.

[lefty]

I still can't believe they were idiots that actually thought Draymond was better than him..
:lol holy shit
I mean don't get me wrong, Dray is probably the best "swiss knife" player in the NBA and is a pretty smart player, but he is not a star

[daslicer]

:lol holy shit
I mean don't get me wrong, Dray is probably the best "swiss knife" player in the NBA and is a pretty smart player, but he is not a star

If you dig through some old threads in here you will see people arguing that he's better and more valuable than Klay. They were people who actually believed Dray made Klay better than what he was and that Klay was a system player.

[lefty]

If you dig through some old threads in here you will see people arguing that he's better and more valuable than Klay. They were people who actually believed Dray made Klay better than what he was and that Klay was a system player.
well I’m not surprised

[Kawhitstorm]

I felt for years prior to KD coming to the Warriors that he was the Warriors second best player. I still can't believe they were idiots that actually thought Draymond was better than him. Klay is very underrated on both ends of the court. Klay can easily get 20 plus points in any system and doesn't have to be the number 1 option to do it. He still manged to easily get 20 plus points per game playing as the third option. Even in this high pace era that's hard to do as a third option like he did with the Warriors from '17-'19.

Draymond is a 16 game player, even DeFrozen is a better regular season player especially as a primary or secondary option.

As far as Klay, the Duds wouldn’t have fared any worse in the ‘15 Finals if they replaced him with Ariza. In ‘16, Klay was Playoff P status, disappearing after talking smack to LeBrat, while Draymond was letting his nuts hang & would have won FMVP.

Besides, he had a NEGATIVE net rating in ‘17 & ‘18 despite his team blowing out the Cavs aka a Porker.:lol In ‘19, he had a couple of scoring outbursts but VanVleet/Lowry were giving it to him on the other end ala Kyrie. Basically, his Finals career performances are pretty ordinary....Iggy’s might be superior when you consider all-around impact.

Klay would have been another Micheal Redd on a team like the Suns. Meanwhile a guy like Jrue would be getting the same reverence as Draymond since he’s basically a rich man’s Iggy who can be a second option like Klay. Not sure you’re losing too much replacing Iggy/Klay with Jrue/Ariza.

On the other hand, it’s hard to replace PRIME Draymond with someone like PRIME Softridge even though the latter is a better player in a vacuum which is why Draymond is more valuable than Klay within their system.

[Kawhitstorm]

Tha'ts true

BTW I think Klay is very underrated, makes big shots, great defensive player in an era where you are not allowed to touch the other guard - the only guard who has his number is Kyrie Irving

You might want to add JR Smith to the list as far as the other end :lol

[lefty]

You might want to add JR Smith to the list as far as the other end :lol

:lol

[dbreiden83080]

21-15 Reg season
11-5 playoffs
2-1 Head to head in finals should be 3-0 as we know..

[TDfan2007]

It's close, but LeBron has eclipsed him. His sustained greatness has been incredible, and he's probably the most complete player in nba history.

They're both top 5 imo

[FrostKing]

G. James
G. Jordan
SF. Pippen
4. Bird
5. Duncan

[Arcadian]

It's close, but LeBron has eclipsed him. His sustained greatness has been incredible, and he's probably the most complete player in nba history.

They're both top 5 imo

I don't think he ever decisively eclipsed him. One thing you'd have to agree with is, Tim had a better career start-to-finish (emphasis on the "start" in this case). Both came into the league and were instantly among the league's best players, but Tim was arguably the best player in the league in his 2nd season, and he obviously started winning rings much sooner than Lebron. Through age 26, Duncan already had 2 rings and 2 FMVPs compared to 0 for Lebron at the same age. Lebron actually had a "legacy scare" in his late 2000s Cleveland years (and even his first year in Miami) when people started whispering, "Will he ever win a ring? Did we crown him too soon?" Now obviously, he went on to win 4 rings (maybe more) and so those questions were invalid - but just the fact that it took him so long to silence those questions makes his career less perfect than Tim's.

The fact that Tim fared favorably against Lebron head-to-head (21-15 overall, 11-5 in playoffs) makes it even less convincing that the latter ever eclipsed him.

[FrostKing]

James has certainly not surpassed Duncan. Tim is simply underrated. And this is because the Spurs did not repeat.

I still have Duncan above James, Kobe, and Shaq. Lebron still has opportunity to overtake though.

[Arcadian]

James has certainly not surpassed Duncan. Tim is simply underrated. And this is because the Spurs did not repeat.

I still have Duncan above James, Kobe, and Shaq. Lebron still has opportunity to overtake though.

But he was sooooo close to repeating on two occasions ('05/'06 and '13/'14), I don't think that should factor into the discussion at all.

Duncan was two bad breaks away from 5-peating from '03-'07.

[TDfan2007]

But he was sooooo close to repeating on two occasions ('05/'06 and '13/'14), I don't think that should factor into the discussion at all.

Duncan was two bad breaks away from 5-peating from '03-'07.

Spurs would've gotten annihilated by the Pistons in 2004, but I have no doubt that they would've won in 2006 if not for that Manu foul. Still hurts to this day :'(

[Mitch]

No repeats, no GOAT discussion for backdoor timmy tbh

[Arcadian]

Spurs would've gotten annihilated by the Pistons in 2004, but I have no doubt that they would've won in 2006 if not for that Manu foul. Still hurts to this day :'(

I don't see any reason to believe they would have been "annihilated" by the '04 Pistons when they beat the '05 Pistons a year later. Maybe the Pistons were better in '04 and the Spurs were better in '05, but it still would have been a good series with both teams having a chance.

[Neo.]

But he was sooooo close to repeating on two occasions ('05/'06 and '13/'14), I don't think that should factor into the discussion at all.

Duncan was two bad breaks away from 5-peating from '03-'07.

one could also argue they were 3 good breaks away from 0 championships from 03-07

[Thomas82]

No one said a thing about the "Spurs organization" until after his arrival and now suddently after the fact pople want to pretend he walked into what they became under him?

He dispelled this notion before it even began by doing what he did from '97-'04 (early 00s in particular). He carried teams offensively ranging from aging to in transition, with zero reliable perimeter creation throughout and eventually no second superstar/star period, to 2 championships and perennial contender status.

For some reason his prime is seemingly forgotten by non Spurs fans, who remember him as the old, one legged version from the "beautiful game" years and think the team always played that style.

Very well said......spot on!!

[TheCerebral1]

Duncan didn't chase rings, and ultimately trusted the process and the coaching. Duncan is on the same level that I would rate Lebron as an ultimate teammate, making players better. However, Duncan is a bigger winner. Lebron James is one of the best all around talents the game has ever seen, however to me he's a ring chaser and not even in the shadow of Jordan. They are completely different players. He's a top 5 player all time, but in a different avenue. His greatness is in his own category. There really isn't much to compare Duncan and James in.

[lefty]

Duncan didn't chase rings, and ultimately trusted the process and the coaching. Duncan is on the same level that I would rate Lebron as an ultimate teammate, making players better. However, Duncan is a bigger winner. Lebron James is one of the best all around talents the game has ever seen, however to me he's a ring chaser and not even in the shadow of Jordan. They are completely different players. He's a top 5 player all time, but in a different avenue. His greatness is in his own category. There really isn't much to compare Duncan and James in.
Context matters; Duncan had Robinson when he joned the league and (at the time) a competent FO and head coach
Jordan would have bolted if he could have, he publicly threw his FO under the bus many times, but moving and teaming wasn't as easy as it is today, then Pippen and Phil arrived so of course he stayed
LeBron wasn't going to win if he stayed in Cleveland, his dragged that sorry ass team to the 07 Finals, but his shitty owner and GM did nothing to improve the team

Blame the media for judging players on rInGz, that puts pressure on every star

[daslicer]

Context matters; Duncan had Robinson when he joned the league and (at the time) a competent FO and head coach
Jordan would have bolted if he could have, he publicly threw his FO under the bus many times, but moving and teaming wasn't as easy as it is today, then Pippen and Phil arrived so of course he stayed
LeBron wasn't going to win if he stayed in Cleveland, his dragged that sorry ass team to the 07 Finals, but his shitty owner and GM did nothing to improve the team

Blame the media for judging players on rInGz, that puts pressure on every star

You can definitely say Duncan lucked out with Robinson at the start of his career. Robinson was still a superstar from '97-'00. Tim benefited from that tremendously in the sense it allowed him to win his first ring at a very young age. After '00 Robinson declined at a high rate. In '01 he was barely an all-star but no longer a superstar and after '01 he became just a good role player. You gotta give Tim credit for staying here after '00 and taking his lumps from the Lakers in '01 and '02 with no hope in sight of overcoming them. It could have been easy for Tim to give up after those 2 years of losing to the Lakers. I'm not sure if Lebron would have had the mental fortitude to overcome the Kobe-Shaq Lakers like Duncan did in '03.

[i'm_still_beta]

Context matters; Duncan had Robinson when he joned the league and (at the time) a competent FO and head coach
Jordan would have bolted if he could have, he publicly threw his FO under the bus many times, but moving and teaming wasn't as easy as it is today, then Pippen and Phil arrived so of course he stayed
LeBron wasn't going to win if he stayed in Cleveland, his dragged that sorry ass team to the 07 Finals, but his shitty owner and GM did nothing to improve the team

Blame the media for judging players on rInGz, that puts pressure on every star

truth nukes