Question - John Collins

[Dennis the Menace]

IMO, he’s perfect for the Spurs. Especially with the young budding nucleus of White, Keldon, Vassell, Lonnie, Dejounte, Poetl.

My question is what’s the best/most likely scenario of Spurs obtaining Collins?

Is it trading Aldridge or Derozan to Atlanta? Or simply make large offer next summer & pray that SA is his preferred destination?

If you can guaranteed land him with a LMA or Derozan trade I say pull the trigger

[timvp]

Wouldn't be able to trade for him. Only way to get him would be to offer a max deal next offseason and hope the Hawks don't match.

[tbdog]

He is obviously the best young pf available next season. And obviously the Spurs need a pf.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Atlanta have a lot of players to pay or trade and Collins might be the odd man out but I don't think he's worth a max contract. He can put up stats but from what I've seen of him he doesn't impact winning as much as his gaudy stats would suggest.

[rankingtear]

The jump he had with his production offense and defense coincides with him playing more center (50%) which he would do less this year. He is more center than modern day four in my opinion, would not mind him but his offense thrives playing center but you can't survive with him as your only rim protector. An impossible player to build around and be a contender like KAT. I'm thinking pairing him with a big wing rim protector might work but KAT and Covington still failed.

There was a rumor that a Collins-Siakam swap was in play this was when TOR was focused on creating space to make a run at Giannis. We don't have a good PF that can help ATL now therefore we need a third team to facilitate a trade.

I would wait till the offseason, you are overpaying him to get him while giving up a significant asset, better to overpay him and give up a lesser asset like what IND did with the Brogdon sign and trade. Also there are a bunch of big wing and big man prospects in next years draft, we might lucked out on a better rebuilding piece.

The ideal modern PF for standard lineups is a big man with guard skills like Trey , Luka, Poku, Durant. In small ball lineups is a big wing like Rudy, Crowder, Iggy, Morris preferably those with weak side rim protection like Pat Williams, Covington, AK47.

[horseshue]

Max money for no D playing big man. No thanks.

[Chinook]

Wouldn't be able to trade for him. Only way to get him would be to offer a max deal next offseason and hope the Hawks don't match.

I don't think this makes sense. If ATL won't match a max offer, and SA makes it clear they'll give him one, then ATL has a lot of incentive to trade Collins.

More generally, it'll depend both on how the Hawks are doing around the deadline and how much Collins is factoring into their performance. If they are doing well and guys like Capela, Okongwu and Gallo are tearing it up, then they might do a trade. And if they're horrible and Collins is sucking, they might do one. They can afford to keep him on a max long term, but it'll involve paying the tax for a year or so. That might be worth it, at least to start off.

[poopbox]

I believe he is at the top of the spurs free agency board. I do believe that if they have to they will offer him a max. Doubt we can trade for him unless ATL wants Aldridge, Derozan, Gay, or Mills, which is all I would give them for Collins.

[Sugus]

I don't mind that Collins isn't an ace defensively, tbh. Every player on our true core (Vassell, Keldon, White, maaaybe DJ or even Lonnie depending on this year) is an excellent defender for their position, and can plug the holes. We need offense right now, especially with the prospect (prayingdog.jpg) of both DD and LMA leaving at the same time, leaving a huge hole to be filled. Of course, the guards will do some of it, but having an uber-efficient 20-10 big man at a position of dire need is great.

A lineup of White-Vassell-Keldon-Collins-Poeltl (I see Collins as a small-ball 5 from what I've seen of his play, he'd struggle against bigs like Embiid or Jokic (lucky we have Poeltl for that :drunk)) is very balanced on O&D, switchable, gritty. Gimme some of that. Let's hope Atlanta really doesn't value Collins that much.

E: having said that, I definitely wouldn't trade for Collins. No sense to weaken the team for a player you can lure in FA. If he signs with another team, oh well, cap space has many uses... But I'd like him a lot.

[Dejounte]

I reckon you'd have to get rid of the 2021 1st round pick to get him. The question is, would you? As appealing as next year's draft is, I would. There's still uncertainty you're dealing with when you draft players. Collins is already an established one.

Only true Spurs homers believe we can attain Collins by just giving up our washed up vets.

[look_at_g_shred]

I reckon you'd have to get rid of the 2021 1st round pick to get him. The question is, would you? As appealing as next year's draft is, I would. There's still uncertainty you're dealing with when you draft players. Collins is already an established one.

Only true Spurs homers believe we can attain Collins by just giving up our washed up vets.
Why give up an asset when you can just overpay for him? To think we could have a lottery pick in a stacked draft plus Collins this offseason would b nuts.

[Dejounte]

Why give up an asset when you can just overpay for him? To think we could have a lottery pick in a stacked draft plus Collins this offseason would b nuts.

I'm saying it as if the Hawks have leverage. If the Spurs had no say whether to sign him outright or trade for him.

In cases like Collins, sign and trade usually happens.

[tmtcsc]

Wouldn't be able to trade for him. Only way to get him would be to offer a max deal next offseason and hope the Hawks don't match.

Definitely not a max player. He's solid but not max worthy.

[Dejounte]

Definitely not a max player. He's solid but not max worthy.

"Max player" is different for tiers of players though

The max for John is only 29 million because he's had less than five years of experience in the league. Compare that to Giannis' 45+ million.

To me, 29 million is hardly a "max".

That's only $10 million more than White. For a player who has proven he can put up 20 and 10. Sounds easy when you consider it was on a team that wasn't very good, but it's not. Not many players can do that.

[Dejounte]

Shit, we wish Poetl could put up 20 and 10...

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

"Max player" is different for tiers of players though

The max for John is only 29 million because he's had less than five years of experience in the league. Compare that to Giannis' 45+ million.

To me, 29 million is hardly a "max".

That's only $10 million more than White. For a player who has proven he can put up 20 and 10. Sounds easy when you consider it was on a team that wasn't very good, but it's not. Not many players can do that.

He'd be worth $29MM per season for what he'd bring the Spurs.

[Gibbz]

23 years old in September and one of two players in the NBA to average 20/10 while shooting >40% from three. Also happens to be maybe our biggest position of need going forward. Sign me TF up.

[Excessive Egotist]

One of the best storylines for Spurs fans to follow is who becomes available on the demand-a-trade market at deadline and next summer. Sign and trade and absorb-into-space (for picks) will be best path to returning to playoffs.

A lottery pick and the ability to bring on two-ish max players is possible, assuming some salary goes out in a sign and trade.

John Collins is a good player, but his own team isn't enthusiastic about giving him a max and Collins plus another All Star wasn't good enough to make the playoffs in the East last season. Not clear that he's a needle mover.

[Leetonidas]

Spurs aren't getting Collins. ST needs to drop this pipedream fantasy already

[Excessive Egotist]

It's not much of a pipedream. He's gettable. But a mediocre player. Probably not an All Star in the West. Is he an All Star in the East?

[Dejounte]

Spurs aren't getting Collins. ST needs to drop this pipedream fantasy already

Giannis was a pipe dream. Collins is far from one. Not sure how you landed at that conclusion.

[Dejounte]

One of the best storylines for Spurs fans to follow is who becomes available on the demand-a-trade market at deadline and next summer. Sign and trade and absorb-into-space (for picks) will be best path to returning to playoffs.

A lottery pick and the ability to bring on two-ish max players is possible, assuming some salary goes out in a sign and trade.

John Collins is a good player, but his own team isn't enthusiastic about giving him a max and Collins plus another All Star wasn't good enough to make the playoffs in the East last season. Not clear that he's a needle mover.

Harden is a good player, but the Thunder isn't enthusiastic about giving him a max. Not clear that he's a needle mover.

[R. DeMurre]

He's kind of the ultimate dilemma, the guy who puts up numbers that are incredibly impressive & efficient and look like max player numbers, but whose impact on the court doesn't nearly match them. He'll never be close to a max guy in the truest sense-- like a LeBron, Giannis, or Duncan-- but he'll always be a very reliable net positive guy whose D needs to be hidden. He might not even be as impactful as Derrick Favors or Tobias Harris. Tough choice for a max contract, but I suppose also easily tradable once acquired. I would have preferred a Sabonis or Jonathan Isaac for less, but sadly the aura around the 2021 FA market has gone from historic to bland in the last couple of months.

[Excessive Egotist]

Harden is a good player, but Oklahoma's owner won't green light three max contracts and or going over the cap.

[Dejounte]

Harden is a good player, but Oklahoma's owner won't green light three max contracts and or going over the cap.

So who is to say Atlanta isn't operating the same way? My point is that the line of reasoning behind letting other teams determine a player's value/ talent through their actions is counter productive.

[Mugen]

I'd be in favor of throwing a max contract at Collins tbh. Maybe Timmy can help with the recruiting process with the Wake Forest connection. But I'd say the chances of the Spurs landing him would be pretty slim. Markkanen is probably a more likely target (though still unlikely) and should be a little bit cheaper tbh.

[exstatic]

He won’t be a superstar, but you can plug him into your lineup for a decade and get top level offensive production, and hopefully at least passable defense.

To steal a team’s RFA, you have to go with a max offer.

[KobesAchilles]

Give him the max. We are losing LMA. Poetl can’t score. We need someone to make up the scoring production and he seems like an ideal fit tbh

[K...]

I'd give up a lottery protected first at this point. Spurs are a bubble team, and need talent, but also have a ton of past picks already tied up on the roster, and unless someone is going back, we can skip a draft and improve from within

[tmtcsc]

"Max player" is different for tiers of players though

The max for John is only 29 million because he's had less than five years of experience in the league. Compare that to Giannis' 45+ million.


Gotcha. Quick fun fact - His uncle lives here in San Antonio. Unlike a certain other Uncle, this guy is a very nice, honorable man.

[Joseph Kony]

A lot of teams will offer him the max tbh, but I wonder if ATL matches it.

Collins would be a nice get but I just don't see him coming to SA, doesn't seem like a "Spurs guy."

[Dejounte]

Gotcha. Quick fun fact - His uncle lives here in San Antonio. Unlike a certain other Uncle, this guy is a very nice, honorable man.

Don't know if you saw my post in the other thread but I mentioned that he has the same agent as LaMarcus. You just know his agent was on the phone with SA after Atlanta lowballed them.

Too many connections there for it not to be a strong possibility.

[BackHome]

I'd give up a lottery protected first at this point. Spurs are a bubble team, and need talent, but also have a ton of past picks already tied up on the roster, and unless someone is going back, we can skip a draft and improve from within

I would not give up a protected first for any player as we are one injury away from being worst team in the NBA

[Dennis the Menace]

Gotcha. Quick fun fact - His uncle lives here in San Antonio. Unlike a certain other Uncle, this guy is a very nice, honorable man.


Get it done PATFO

[Prime BEEF]

Give him the max. We are losing LMA. Poetl can’t score. We need someone to make up the scoring production and he seems like an ideal fit tbh
Yup. Collins fills a big need for this team and $29M/yr got him is good value when compared to what others are getting lately. It’s really a no brainer for the spurs...or at least should be

[Prime BEEF]

Gotcha. Quick fun fact - His uncle lives here in San Antonio. Unlike a certain other Uncle, this guy is a very nice, honorable man.
Is this legit? Or just rumor?

[RC_Drunkford]

I‘m on board. Try to get him. Also he’s still young so there is room for development especially on defense. I bet he‘ll look much better playing next to Poeltl and Keldon

[exstatic]

I would not give up a protected first for any player as we are one injury away from being worst team in the NBA

That’s why it’s protected. If we fall into the lottery, we keep the pick, and the payout is deferred another year, or maybe two in some cases

[Fusternino]

Standing reach is pedestrian. Just there for the offense? He's a true stretch 5 and rebounding machine? I don't really watch the East much.

[tmtcsc]

Is this legit? Or just rumor?

Not a rumor. I spoke to him myself a couple of years ago at a basketball training session for our kids. His son was at the same workout as mine - working out @ Alamo City Christian Fellowship gym. Proud uncle.

[Prime BEEF]

Not a rumor. I spoke to him myself a couple of years ago at a basketball training session for our kids. His son was at the same workout as mine - working out @ Alamo City Christian Fellowship gym. Proud uncle.
Wow. Great inside info thanks. Hopefully the uncle has some influence on Collins

[r0drig0lac]

It's not much of a pipedream. He's gettable. But a mediocre player. Probably not an All Star in the West. Is he an All Star in the East?

starting from that level of demand, your list of "not mediocre" players must be incredibly small (like 20 players or something)



I would not give up a protected first for any player as we are one injury away from being worst team in the NBA

which player are we talking about here?

[Sugus]

which player are we talking about here?

Literally no one. There's no one guy on the team that can be removed, and make us bottom-feeder levels of bad. Do people here even watch other teams besides the Spurs?

[TD 21]

The jump he had with his production offense and defense coincides with him playing more center (50%) which he would do less this year. He is more center than modern day four in my opinion, would not mind him but his offense thrives playing center but you can't survive with him as your only rim protector. An impossible player to build around and be a contender like KAT. I'm thinking pairing him with a big wing rim protector might work but KAT and Covington still failed.

There was a rumor that a Collins-Siakam swap was in play this was when TOR was focused on creating space to make a run at Giannis. We don't have a good PF that can help ATL now therefore we need a third team to facilitate a trade.

I would wait till the offseason, you are overpaying him to get him while giving up a significant asset, better to overpay him and give up a lesser asset like what IND did with the Brogdon sign and trade. Also there are a bunch of big wing and big man prospects in next years draft, we might lucked out on a better rebuilding piece.

The ideal modern PF for standard lineups is a big man with guard skills like Trey , Luka, Poku, Durant. In small ball lineups is a big wing like Rudy, Crowder, Iggy, Morris preferably those with weak side rim protection like Pat Williams, Covington, AK47.

Yeah, he's a dynamic scorer and solid rebounder, but I'm not sure to what extent he drives winning. As you alluded to, he basically doesn't have a natural defensive position in the modern NBA, which makes him a difficult piece to win big with.

On the other hand, he's probably the absolute apex of what they could conceivably do in free agency and the rest of the youth would theoretically compliment him well.

[Excessive Egotist]

Mediocre was an overstatement, granted. He's a better than league average player. But he's not an All Star. Even in the East, not an All Star. And All Star voting doesn't account much for defense, and Collins is a subpar defender.

If the Spurs add Collins, fine. But he won't make the team better than it is now, especially if he's just replacing one or more of Gay/Aldridge/DeRozan.

[RC_Drunkford]

Here's a very good article with some defensive clips.

https://www.si.com/nba/hawks/news/john-collins-has-become-one-of-the-nbas-most-versatile-weapons

I actually think he'd fit in perfect. Gets most of his points in the flow of the offense, can score from anywhere on the floor, brings some weakside shotblocking which is what I've been wanting from the 4 spot for years and can switch defensively. The only knock is him not being a good passer and the max would definitely be an overpay. He's definitely more of a 4 and not a 5.

[Atl Spur]

No to Collins for absurd money; Luka I’m optimistically feeling will be better long term. We will exercise patience.....

[Prime BEEF]

Collins is an excellent young player that can still improve and would fit in well with the young core. He’d easily be an all-star on the spurs. $29M is about right for him. Right now we pay DDR $27M, we pay LMA $25M and pay Mills/Gay $27M. Paying Collins $29M is better use of our money then those contracts.

[mo7888]

No to Collins for absurd money; Luka I’m optimistically feeling will be better long term. We will exercise patience.....

I'm feeling the same way about Collins. I like Lauri probably about as much and if I could pry him from Chicago for less $$ I might try that. I also wouldn't be against trying to pry Precious from Miami if they happen to have an interest in acquiring Aldridge this year.

[buttsR4rebounding]

I would have rather make a run at Wood this year for half the money. Now you need to see if Luka develops IMO.

[exstatic]

I would have rather make a run at Wood this year for half the money. Now you need to see if Luka develops IMO.

Yeah, but we didn’t have half that money this year.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

[CGD]

Serious question: isn’t he mostly an energetic roll man? Does he have a consistent shot/3ball (aside from what’s in the clips) or something else of note?

[Dejounte]

Serious question: isn’t he mostly an energetic roll man? Does he have a consistent shot/3ball (aside from what’s in the clips) or something else of note?

Yes, that's what it looks like to me. His offensive stats could be inflated too by how much Trae draws in the defense to himself.

[KobesAchilles]

Serious question: isn’t he mostly an energetic roll man? Does he have a consistent shot/3ball (aside from what’s in the clips) or something else of note?
Yeah but we desperately need a roll man that can score. Poetl gives us 5 points a game and LMA only pops. It’s a major flaw in our team as of now. It’s definitely an overpay but if he some people are still high on Poetls offensive upside then they should be beyond stoked on this guys

[Dejounte]

Yeah but we desperately need a roll man that can score. Poetl gives us 5 points a game and LMA only pops. It’s a major flaw in our team as of now. It’s definitely an overpay but if he some people are still high on Poetls offensive upside then they should be beyond stoked on this guys

He'll be paid three times more than Poetl. We'll have better offense but way worse on defense. People will be crying about how no one can guard shots inside. Then we'll be back where we are now. We need two way players, not one way ones. It would be like signing a center version of Forbes.

[RC_Drunkford]

He'll be paid three times more than Poetl. We'll have better offense but way worse on defense. People will be crying about how no one can guard shots inside. Then we'll be back where we are now. We need two way players, not one way ones. It would be like signing a center version of Forbes.

not if Collins plays PF. He's not a Center anyway. Put him next to Poeltl and we'll even have more shot blocking than what we have now

[**BUSTA**]

Yeah, but we didn’t have half that money this year.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.


Could have tried to sign and trade using Murray.

[r0drig0lac]

He'll be paid three times more than Poetl. We'll have better offense but way worse on defense. People will be crying about how no one can guard shots inside. Then we'll be back where we are now. We need two way players, not one way ones. It would be like signing a center version of Forbes.

no, Collins is a good basketball player, Jeff Ayers would be the center version of Forbes.

[Dejounte]

not if Collins plays PF. He's not a Center anyway. Put him next to Poeltl and we'll even have more shot blocking than what we have now

If Collins was a PF, the Hawks would play him alongside Capela (who is similar to Poetl). But they don't, because you can't play two bigs these days unless they're generational talent. If having Collins play PF with a shot blocking C was an advantage, the Hawks would use it. They're playing DeAndre Hunter at PF, which is the exact prototype we should be looking for.

Again, last night in the Clippers vs Nuggets game both teams were playing two PGs, two wings, and one center. Collins can't keep up with a wing. He will get destroyed Forbes-style. Stop forcing traditional positions on players who can't play them anymore.

[Dejounte]

Before someone says, "well, you make teams adjust to you. Not the other way around". The Nuggets are ALREADY equipped to do that but they don't do it, because playing two bigs is not as big of an advantage people think it is anymore.

[r0drig0lac]

Collins had 21ppg on a bad team (Hawks 19/20) on 58/40/80, his efficiency on a good or elite team in theory goes from great to elite, if he is worth 29Mi / year? maybe, if he can be one of the top three scorers on an contender team? if his numbers from the previous season are sustainable (he is only 23), there is no doubt.

[Dejounte]

Collins had 21ppg on a bad team (Hawks 19/20) on 58/40/80, his efficiency on a good or elite team in theory goes from great to elite, if he is worth 29Mi / year? maybe, if he can be one of the top three scorers on an contender team? if his numbers from the previous season are sustainable (he is only 23), there is no doubt.

Defense is the concern, not offense. And it's debatable whether his stats are inflated or not due to Trae shooting from half court and him just having a ton of spacing to do his thing + second chance points. Perhaps stat geeks can chime in.

[RC_Drunkford]

If Collins was a PF, the Hawks would play him alongside Capela (who is similar to Poetl). But they don't, because you can't play two bigs these days unless they're generational talent. If having Collins play PF with a shot blocking C was an advantage, the Hawks would use it. They're playing DeAndre Hunter at PF, which is the exact prototype we should be looking for.

Again, last night in the Clippers vs Nuggets game both teams were playing two PGs, two wings, and one center. Collins can't keep up with a wing. He will get destroyed Forbes-style. Stop forcing traditional positions on players who can't play them anymore.

You know why they don't play him next to Capela? Because Capela is injured.

[r0drig0lac]

Defense is the concern, not offense. And it's debatable whether his stats are inflated or not due to Trae shooting from half court and him just having a ton of spacing to do his thing + second chance points. Perhaps stat geeks can chime in.

inflated statistics work when it comes with high volume and bad efficiency, guys like Booker (or Collins 19), who do it with high efficiency in bad teams, only tend to improve in good teams, so this premise is wrong, about playing with Trae? well all the bigs in history not called Duncan (or Akeem) needed stars on the perimeter to look better than they really were (Shaq for example), and if White is what some believe it to be, then it shouldn't be a big downgrade between play with him or with Trae

[Dejounte]

You know why they don't play him next to Capela? Because Capela is injured

Bet you $ they won't bench Hunter for Capela when Capela is back from his injury.

[Dejounte]

inflated statistics work when it comes with high volume and bad efficiency, guys like Booker (or Collins 19), who do it with high efficiency in bad teams, only tend to improve in good teams, so this premise is wrong, about playing with Trae? well all the bigs in history not called Duncan (or Akeem) needed stars on the perimeter to look better than they really were (Shaq for example), and if White is what some believe it to be, then it shouldn't be a big downgrade between play with him or with Trae

Low volume, high efficiency can indicate he's finding open shots, not that he's actually skilled

White is not the dynamic playmaker Trae is. Never will be. This team won't allow White to just chuck it up like Trae does from half court. Trae has a gravity few have in the league.

Here's John's shot chart:

https://i.ibb.co/R6B04qW/Screenshot-20201226-100639-01.jpg

This shows to me that he's not a 3 level scorer.

[RC_Drunkford]

Your takes get worse by the day. Collins is 6'9'' which is by far not the traditional size of a Center and most NBA teams nowadays still start players taller than him. So there is no traditional position forcing going on here, he's clearly a PF with that size. 1 inch taller than Jerami Grant and nobody would start Grant at Center. Besides that Collins actually is mobile, you're acting like he's LaMarcus Aldridge. The guy can easily guard forwards and should even be able to switch on guards. It's not his mobility that makes him a mediocre defender, it's his footwork

[TD 21]

Poeltl is unfairly stereotyped. He's one of the best rim protectors in the league. Top fiveish in defensive field goal percentage within' 3 feet of the rim last season to go with an elite block percentage. He's also a solid finisher. His ppg are a function of minutes/usage and irrelevant. His screening/rolling/passing/finishing helps an offense function.

Collins could fit well next to him since he'll probably never average more than mid 20sish minutes, opening up minutes for the former to play some C.

The Hawks supposedly offered him $90M and could have a '19 Celtics esque chemistry problem brewing. They could be a stealth Harden team.

[Dejounte]

Your takes get worse by the day. Collins is 6'9'' which is by far not the traditional size of a Center and most NBA teams nowadays still start players taller than him. So there is no traditional position forcing going on here, he's clearly a PF with that size. 1 inch taller than Jerami Grant and nobody would start Grant at Center. Besides that Collins actually is mobile, you're acting like he's LaMarcus Aldridge. The guy can easily guard forwards and should even be able to switch on guards. It's not his mobility that makes him a mediocre defender, it's his footwork

Tell me how much you've watched the Hawks?

Because he doesn't have the size of a center proves even more how out of place he is defensively because he can't play either PF or C on defense like Forbes was caught in between PG and SG.

Put your money where your mouth is and show me that your take is better than mine. I'm not right all the time, never said I was. But I'm telling you, if what you say is correct then the Hawks would play Collins at PF with Capela at C when he's back.

[r0drig0lac]

Low volume, high efficiency can indicate he's finding open shots, not that he's actually skilled

White is not the dynamic playmaker Trae is. Never will be. This team won't allow White to just chuck it up like Trae does from half court. Trae has a gravity few have in the league.

Here's John's shot chart:

https://i.ibb.co/R6B04qW/Screenshot-20201226-100639-01.jpg

This shows to me that he's not a 3 level scorer.

who talked about the low volume? now you are trying to create a point (because you don't like the player, because you believe he is not good at what you think is necessary or because you believe he is not worth the potential money), even if it disregards reality.

[Dejounte]

who talked about the low volume? now you are trying to create a point (because you don't like the player, because you believe he is not good at what you think is necessary or because you believe he is not worth the potential money), even if it disregards reality.

I've said that if the Spurs get him then they believe in his upside. I'm neither for or against the guy, just challenging people's thinking of Collins being a one and done idea that would solve a lot of our problems. I'm bringing into light that it could hurt us more than it helps us. I was for Collins for a little while until I realized the drawbacks.

[r0drig0lac]

Collins is not a center, he is a forward, and probably one of the only pure pf in the league, and he is offensively good at basketball.

[RC_Drunkford]

Tell me how much you've watched the Hawks?

Because he doesn't have the size of a center proves even more how out of place he is defensively because he can't play either PF or C on defense like Forbes was caught in between PG and SG.

Put your money where your mouth is and show me that your take is better than mine. I'm not right all the time, never said I was. But I'm telling you, if what you say is correct then the Hawks would play Collins at PF with Capela at C when he's back.

Which is exactly what they will do


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a001uj9hQD8

My comment was directed at yours saying stop forcing players into traditional positions and I just showed you that that ain't the case here. Collins is mobile enough to play PF so there's no reason to believe he can't play PF. He's played PF for the past 3 years. And Collins strength on D is help defense, which he can show much better when he plays PF to help the C out flying in to block shots. He'd actually fit in extremely well next to LaMarcus if you think about it

[r0drig0lac]

I've said that if the Spurs get him then they believe in his upside. I'm neither for or against the guy, just challenging people's thinking of Collins being a one and done idea that would solve a lot of our problems. I'm bringing into light that it could hurt us more than it helps us. I was for Collins for a little while until I realized the drawbacks.sorry, but i'm not attacking you or anything, i don't know if he would be my choice for a young talent from another team (although as i said, i believe his eff will probably explode in a better team), but some people seem to believe in the utopia of that Spurs will drafted 5 6 or 7 players (1 in each position) and all will be part of the future core of the championship, this is not happening, at some point, they will probably look for talent outside.

[TD 21]

Collins and Capela will start together when healthy. Gallinari will be the third big and play as much or more than Capela. To get those three commensurate minutes, it'll leave scraps for Okongwu and Hunter (he'll have to mostly play "SF").

Post Aldridge, Spurs need a stretch big. If it's not someone like Collins, it'll have to be someone like Olynyk.

[rankingtear]

1342863556270845952

[R. DeMurre]

One of the reasons I wasn't a fan of Obi Toppin in the draft is I think he's going to be a John Collins-lite, and he's only 6 months younger than Collins, who's been in the league three years now. I bet he'll be less efficient than Collins and a worse defender, but he'll put up some numbers and someone will pay him because of it.

[JuneJive]

His defense is legit questionable.

And no way he'll ever be impactful defending the rim as a 5.

[Chinook]

Bigs playing together isn't just a matter of talent, but IQ. I think Collins and Poeltl could make it work if the structure of the team allows both to know their responsibilities. For the Spurs, they actually have good rim-protecting smalls in addition to Poeltl. I don't think defense would be the problem folks are worrying it could be unless Pop drops the ball. The offense will be more stable as well.

If ATL does do a Harden trade, then I'd love the Spurs to snag Collins as the third team. I could see Houston wanting DeRozan to play SF for them, and with Wood and Cousins signed, they might not value Collins much. It's hard to see how'd they find the salary to move for Harden before the holds on Gallo/Boganovic lift next year. If we just hand-wave that away, then I think Collins and Gordon for DeRozan makes sense for Houston. It'd be a lot to pay for the Spurs, but it's Wiggins-bad.

[objective]

One of the reasons I wasn't a fan of Obi Toppin in the draft is I think he's going to be a John Collins-lite, and he's only 6 months younger than Collins, who's been in the league three years now. I bet he'll be less efficient than Collins and a worse defender, but he'll put up some numbers and someone will pay him because of it.

I was similar with Obi. But I am less opposed to Collins because I do think Collins is better.

In addition, there's just not too many options in free agency to even use a big salary on in summer 2021.

I like Collins more than Markkanen. His defense isn't too great against real bigs, Wendell Carter marched him to the rim and scored on him and Carter barely scores at all. BUT he does fit with the fast-pace Spurs as he's a great runner in transition. He could play with Poeltl and probably look fine. He's the right age.

And his points generation I don't think would fall too much without Trae Young on the Spurs, seeing how great Derrick White is in the pick-and-roll.

Other than Collins and Markkanen, maybe Otto Porter would be a cheaper option. Looked pretty fat in the Bulls-Hawks opener I watched to check out Collins and Markkanen, and is hurt all the time. But is probably transitioning into full-time 4 role as he gets older and heavier, and he is a fair player. Rudy Gay on paper is what, $14 million? Porter on a 3/45 deal might not be unreasonable.

[Dennis the Menace]

Otto Porter Jr is made of glass. Absolutely do not want unless we’re tanking.

[KobesAchilles]

Defense is the concern, not offense. And it's debatable whether his stats are inflated or not due to Trae shooting from half court and him just having a ton of spacing to do his thing + second chance points. Perhaps stat geeks can chime in.
This is on the assumption that we let DDR go of course. I don’t see why Collins and Poetl wouldn’t work. Poetl is never going to play big time minutes anyways bc he sucks so bad offensively, but if he were going to play big minutes, he would have to be paired with a guy like Collins.

Also the Forbes comparison is a horrible one bc Forbes is a midget and Collins isn’t. I’m convinced that nobody in Atlanta knows how to play defense bc they don’t teach it. Nobody thought LMA could play defense and he played very well on that side of the ball for like 3 years for us. When you’re that tall it’s about effort and habit. I’ve seen nothing from Collins that says he isn’t an effort player that just means we have to teach him the habit of playing defense. It’s much easier to do with a guy like Collins who is pretty mobile and much much much taller/bigger than Forbes. Every player Forbes went against was taller than him and faster than him which won’t be the case with John.

White, DJ, Lonnie, KJ and Collins would be a good playoff team surrounded buy the right vets and not Carrol. We aren’t winning the title anytime soon so I’m not shooting for that.

[RC_Drunkford]

Collins is not a bad defender. He has strengths and weaknesses on that end like most players. His strength is help defense, shotblocking and his athleticism which helps him recover on a lot of plays where he was out of position. His weakness is his positioning on individual defense, footwork and him not cutting off driving lanes with his body properly. All of that is teachable and he would learn these type of things from a coach like Pop. I don't see any red flags here

[Dejounte]

Might as well turn this into a free agent tracker thread for John Collins.

Tonight he had
13 points,
4-9 FG,
0-3 3PT,
5-5 from FT,
10 rebounds,
2 turnovers,
1 steal,
2 blocks
in 27 minutes.

His counterpart, Jonas had:

13 points on 2-6 FG, scoring most of his points from FT 8-10
1-3 from 3
4 assists
12 rebounds
1 steal
1 block
4 turnovers

[r0drig0lac]

Might as well turn this into a free agent tracker thread for John Collins.

Tonight he had
13 points,
4-9 FG,
0-3 3PT,
5-5 from FT,
10 rebounds,
2 turnovers,
1 steal,
2 blocks
in 27 minutes.

His counterpart, Jonas had:

13 points on 2-6 FG, scoring most of his points from FT 8-10
1-3 from 3
4 assists
12 rebounds
1 steal
1 block
4 turnovers


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAYqqC3PgKQ

[Prime BEEF]

Would easily be the best player on this team. Not a flawless player but we have ~$80m in expiring contracts. Would rather spend money on him then overpay old veterans (which is what will happen)

[Dejounte]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAYqqC3PgKQ

Not impressed with the way he's scoring his points. 30 points is great if it wasn't against a defenseless team. But 30 points is what the casuals will see, like how mainstream media usually caters to viewers: show them highlights of the guy who scored the most on the losing team instead of the guy on the WINNING team who impacted the game in many other ways besides scoring.

Not worth the max to me.

Also, Lauri is definitely not getting the max by the way he's playing this year so far.

[r0drig0lac]

Not impressed with the way he's scoring his points. 30 points is great if it wasn't against a defenseless team. But 30 points is what the casuals will see, like how mainstream media usually caters to viewers: show them highlights of the guy who scored the most on the losing team instead of the guy on the WINNING team who impacted the game in many other ways besides scoring.

Not worth the max to me.

Also, Lauri is definitely not getting the max by the way he's playing this year so far.

30 in 60/40/80...and he plays for the 3-1 Atlanta

[Dejounte]

30 in 60/40/80...and he plays for the 3-1 Atlanta

Not arguing the efficiency. Just the way he's creating those shots (or how others are creating for him). I wonder how effective he will be when the games start to count (playoffs).

Stars, to me, have a large arsenal of moves. John, right now at least, looks like a highly effective role player... not a player who is trending to become a star.

[r0drig0lac]

Not arguing the efficiency. Just the way he's creating those shots (or how others are creating for him). I wonder how effective he will be when the games start to count (playoffs).

Stars, to me, have a large arsenal of moves. John, right now at least, looks like a highly effective role player... not a player who is trending to become a star.

the biggest scorer of the position had a guy "creating" for him throughout his all career, it is natural in this position, Dirk, Duncan and Chuck are the exceptions, it does not diminish the value of these guys, and Collins is one of the most versatile scorers in position, I really don't understand the offensive limitation argument being played here.

[Dejounte]

Random posters from the Hawks board:

"Again. I'm not saying we don't need him as in hes useless. I'm saying management will not be willing to fork over a max contract to a guy who has put up less than the 20&10 he usually does. It's just that simple. There will be teams out there throwing the max at him. That's going to happen. A desperate team will give him that contract and we will be either forced to match or let him walk for nothing. And management cannot let him walk for nothing. They need something in return. Therefore if the right trade comes up during the season then maybe make that move. I feel like people in here think he's gonna accept 20m a year. No chance. He just turned down 4yr/90. He's going to have a tough time getting that same production from seasons before but still wanting the max contract. Because this team is deep. Everyone is an option on the floor now. Collins isn't even really the #2 option anymore. I'm not literally saying we don't need him cause he is very good. But we need defence before anything. We're 3-0 against sorry teams. We will see how we do against Brooklyn. "

John has to get better at staying on his feet defensively. And not reaching to make silly contact fouls.
Its hard to produce from the bench because you pick up 2 fouls in the 1st quarter of every game.
Once he cleans that up, he has a better chance to stay on the floor and get in to a rhythm.

The more I watch this team the more I see we may not need Collins anymore. I mean he is a very good player offensively but still quite lost on defense. And he isn't going to be that 20&10 player on this team at least because we just have a lot of depth on this team. I really think Hunter could play the 4 permanently with Capela at 5. I think Collins will want the max money regardless of how he performs cause some team out there will give him the max. I know it's early in the season but just an observation. I could warm up to a Collins trade if it's for the right players in return.

[r0drig0lac]

against the Nets he's scoring in lob, spot, iso, post small players, bullyball,pnr, elbow...idk, he's looking versatile for me

[Dejounte]

the biggest scorer of the position had a guy "creating" for him throughout his all career, it is natural in this position, Dirk, Duncan and Chuck are the exceptions, it does not diminish the value of these guys, and Collins is one of the most versatile scorers in position, I really don't understand the offensive limitation argument being played here.

Most versatile? Come on, now...

He's going to get paid as much as these guys:

Joel Embiid
Nikola Jokic
Karl-Anthony Towns
Bam Adebayo
Pascal Siakam

It's just my opinion. I could be wrong. I don't see him reaching these guys' level at all.

[r0drig0lac]

Most versatile? Come on, now...

He's going to get paid as much as these guys:

Joel Embiid
Nikola Jokic
Karl-Anthony Towns
Bam Adebayo
Pascal Siakam

It's just my opinion. I could be wrong. I don't see him reaching these guys' level at all.

only 3 of these guys (the two superstars and Towns) have a more versatile offensive package than Collins (and even so are the 3 Centers), and even though all of these guys had a bigger arsenal (which they don’t have) than Collins, the original premise it would still be true, being one of the 5-8 is still being among the first.

[RC_Drunkford]

So the Hawks started Capela/Collins and Dedmon/Collins the Last 2 games. Like
I said he’s a PF

[r0drig0lac]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cm6CqS9ujwhawks on the top

[Mr. Body]

He's already expressing unhappiness with the Trae Young-shoot-happy offense.

[r0drig0lac]

He's already expressing unhappiness with the Trae Young-shoot-happy offense.valid statements that should never have been made public in the first place, well, it will be impossible to know if your complaints are due to collective concerns with the team (which unlike last season is one of the most efficient offensively) or because of your future contract (although he is still putting good numbers with good / elite efficiency)

[SPURSCHAMP]

I like Collins but would much rather spend 10-15m on Holmes. Not a PF (and would make the Jakob signing look dubious) but dude is a perfect C for us. Athletic, high-energy, smart defender. Has a really lethal push shot free-throw line in. He’s playing great for the Kings and has pushed Whiteside completely out of the rotation (albeit whiteside sucks). His numbers look fantastic and definitely passes the eye-test watching him play.

[rjv]

if collins continue to have the season that he has had so far, i think atlanta will become inclined to match any offer he gets during free agency,

[Thomas82]

Not impressed with the way he's scoring his points. 30 points is great if it wasn't against a defenseless team. But 30 points is what the casuals will see, like how mainstream media usually caters to viewers: show them highlights of the guy who scored the most on the losing team instead of the guy on the WINNING team who impacted the game in many other ways besides scoring.

Not worth the max to me.

Also, Lauri is definitely not getting the max by the way he's playing this year so far.

[CGD]

I just don’t see it. Good player, yes, but at that big price tag? If the Spurs are building their offense around their young wings, I’d rather go after a defensive minded big.

I know his stock is down and he has his own issue, but I’d rather target a Miles Turner.

[BillMc]

Sign LMA to an affordable 2 year deal and draft a big. Don't overpay for Collins.

[CGD]

I think we should be talking about the other Collins as a target— Zach Collins.

I’m know he’s been injured so hard to gauge is price, but notable that he didn’t get extended.

[R. DeMurre]

I like Collins but would much rather spend 10-15m on Holmes. Not a PF (and would make the Jakob signing look dubious) but dude is a perfect C for us. Athletic, high-energy, smart defender. Has a really lethal push shot free-throw line in. He’s playing great for the Kings and has pushed Whiteside completely out of the rotation (albeit whiteside sucks). His numbers look fantastic and definitely passes the eye-test watching him play.

I've been following Holmes closely this year, and I think he's very underrated. His efficiency numbers have increased steadily his entire career, and now he's entering his prime at age 27. I'd much rather have Holmes than Collins, especially at half the price.

[RC_Drunkford]

Holmes can't shoot 3s

[R. DeMurre]

Richaun Holmes last night: 16 pts, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 6 blocks, 1 steal. And made a three. Here's why I think Holmes's improvement isn't a fluke-- his FG%s in his 6 seasons have been: 51.4, 55.8, 56, 60.8, 64.8, 67.5. Steady improvement his entire career. Here are his FT%s for those years: 68.9, 68.9, 66.1, 73.1, 78.8, 82.6. Again, consistent improvement. The only season he averaged over 1 3ptFGA per game, he shot 35%, so I think, with his improved shooting, he could become a threat from there. The guy plays very good switchable defense and is all over the floor on that end, getting steals & blocks. But his Usage rate is lower than Collins, or a guy like Bam Adebayo. Signing Holmes next year as a FA would help the starters, and sent Poeltl to the bench, where he's most effective.