[PIE CHARTS] We literally can't sign a max player next off-season while keeping Lonnie Walker...

[Dejounte]

https://imgur.com/jM2wov4https://imgur.com/jM2wov4https://i.imgur.com/jM2wov4.png

Assuming Lonnie Walker is signed to a contract similar to DJ's and we do not do anything else significant with the remaining 2021 cap space:

https://i.imgur.com/TmmSxMY.png

https://i.imgur.com/ltJJJll.png

I tried to be as minimally controversial as I could with the "Expected Floor and Ceiling" of each player. I projected Keldon as a future All-Star and as someone who would be paid as a max player when his rookie deal allows it in 2023. I mean, we'd hope he'd reach that level anyway.

The point of putting those projections is to see how the Spurs are using their investments.

For year 2023, I assumed Poetl would be paid roughly the same.

We literally can't keep all the young guys together if we end up signing a max player next offseason.

Something's got to give.

[playblair]

what in the spurs history makes u think a max player would sign here...........lma was an anomaly no marquee free agent wants to live in san antonio......if this was austin yes this convo would be totally different

[Dejounte]

what in the spurs history makes u think a max player would sign here...........lma was an anomaly no marquee free agent wants to live in san antonio......if this was austin yes this convo would be totally different

Collins and other potential max contract free agents next year aren't established enough as stars to be picky about where they want to end up. They'll go where the money and opportunities are.

[TDMVPDPOY]

hopefully spurs dont sign a max player, dont need them

continue to draft and develop

unless DD/LMA decide to sign cheap deals to end their careers in SA

[Dejounte]

hopefully spurs dont sign a max player, dont need them

continue to draft and develop

unless DD/LMA decide to sign cheap deals to end their careers in SA

People will be upset because they won't understand the implications of other moves towards the cap, but I think this is the most realistic thing that will happen.

After the Marcus Morris shitshow and the DeMarre Carroll disappointment, it is way too risky to invest that much money into a free agent... unless they absolutely know their character OR it's a surefire superstar like LeBron James/ Giannis.

[Dejounte]

If there's one key thing that this financial outlook highlighted for me: it's that people need to temper their expectations for our young players. As absurd as this sounds, we don't want ALL of them to become stars, just a couple. Or else, they'll just walk away for free :)

[mo7888]

https://imgur.com/jM2wov4https://imgur.com/jM2wov4https://i.imgur.com/jM2wov4.png

Assuming Lonnie Walker is signed to a contract similar to DJ's and we do not do anything else with the remaining 2021 cap space:

https://i.imgur.com/TmmSxMY.png

https://i.imgur.com/ltJJJll.png

I tried to be as minimally controversial as I could with the "Expected Floor and Ceiling" of each player. I projected Keldon as a future All-Star and as someone who would be paid as a max player when his rookie deal allows it in 2023. I mean, we'd hope he'd reach that level anyway.

The point of putting those projections is to see how the Spurs are using their investments.

For year 2023, I assumed Poetl would be paid roughly the same.

We literally can't keep all the young guys together if we end up signing a max player next offseason.

Something's got to give.

I could be wrong but I don't think Lonnie's deal would kick in until the 22 season.

[Dejounte]

I could be wrong but I don't think Lonnie's deal would kick in until the 22 season.

Yeah, I think that's how I have it? The second photo.

[mo7888]

Yeah, I think that's how I have it? The second photo.

I must be confused, it looks like you have a max contract going to Collins. Are you referring to a 2nd max?

[Dejounte]

I must be confused, it looks like you have a max contract going to Collins. Are you referring to a 2nd max?

Sorry, I could have elaborated better.

Yes, the first photo assumes we'll pay John Collins the max in 2021 and nothing else significant with the remainder of the cap space.

The second photo assumes we'll extend Lonnie to a contract similar to DJ's.

The third photo assumes we extend Poetl in 2023 at the same rate and assumes we'll extend Keldon to a max contract.

This is all ignoring the contracts we're going to our future draft picks (assuming we keep them).

[mo7888]

Sorry, I could have elaborated better.

Yes, the first photo assumes we'll pay John Collins the max in 2021 and nothing else significant with the remainder of the cap space.

The second photo assumes we'll extend Lonnie to a contract similar to DJ's.

The third photo assumes we extend Poetl in 2023 at the same rate and assumes we'll extend Keldon to a max contract.

This is all ignoring the contracts we're going to our future draft picks (assuming we keep them).

Gotcha, I think that's right. We can only afford 1 max if we try and keep our guys. Personally I wouldn't spend the max on Collins or a Lauri level player.

[Dejounte]

Gotcha, I think that's right. We can only afford 1 max if we try and keep our guys. Personally I wouldn't spend the max on Collins or a Lauri level player.

That's what I'm saying though. We can't afford to pay a max player next off-season and keep our guys (specifically Lonnie). We would be EXTREMELY handicapped by 2023 (see third photo).

*All on the basis the players listed meet their "ceiling" expectations. If everyone underperforms.... then yeah, we can keep everybody. HOWEVER, that would mean nobody became stars and we would be right where we are now.

[RC_Drunkford]

Cool breakdown, but I don't understand your worries. You plan for next season, not the one after next. What I'm saying is try to sign the best pieces you can during next free agency and then see who you want to keep after. You can't really predict what happens in 2 seasons. Shit you can't even predict if they can finish this season due to Covid, etc.

Spurs are in perfect position and can add 2 max free agents. I wouldn't worry too much on what happens afterwards right now.

[Dejounte]

Did the Lakers just for comparison:

https://ibb.co/mzggySYhttps://i.ibb.co/6sLLtNp/lakers.png

[Dejounte]

Cool breakdown, but I don't understand your worries. You plan for next season, not the one after next. What I'm saying is try to sign the best pieces you can during next free agency and then see who you want to keep after. You can't really predict what happens in 2 seasons. Shit you can't even predict if they can finish this season due to Covid, etc.

Spurs are in perfect position and can add 2 max free agents. I wouldn't worry too much on what happens afterwards right now.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but let's be real... what the Spurs have done the past 3+ years makes everything in the future predictable. They remain as stagnant as they possibly could and make changes (like trades) like turtles compared to other teams. It's not far off to think all they'll keep doing is make solid draft picks, sign low risk free agents, and make insignificant trades.

[Dejounte]

I mean SURE they could make some major trades, trading away some of the youth... breaking apart a core that has openly said they "love" each other.

But does that sound like the Spurs to you?

[Sugus]

Interesting post. I think the obvious (not likely though) solution is to find a trade for DJ, that is IF Lonnie shows that he's worthy of a contract similar to his. A lot of how this shakes up will depend on how the young guys gel together - maybe, after an entire season of White at the helm, Dejounte looks to be expendable (especially if Vassell keeps developing at a quick pace, since a lot of their skills overlap), or maybe Lonnie shows us nothing and the FO gets him on the cheap.

Right now, I don't see Lonnie being worth 16M, nor do I think he thinks that, nor the FO, so it's a bit early to be panicking about this. I also, sadly, am not really optimistic on chances of the Spurs being able to get Collins, so...

[timvp]

Nice work; good stuff.

I'd file this under Good Problems To Have. If KJ ends up worth a max deal and LW4 ends up worth White/Murray money, that means they're making outstanding progress. There's obviously still a long road to travel before either of those scenarios become a reality.

Signing a max player in the offseason would tighten the budget going forward, which is worth factoring in when the Spurs are considering a max offer to someone on Collins' level. That said, if the Spurs can sign a player who is clearly worth a max level contract, you likely just sign him and let the chips fall where they may.

[Dejounte]

Interesting post. I think the obvious (not likely though) solution is to find a trade for DJ, that is IF Lonnie shows that he's worthy of a contract similar to his. A lot of how this shakes up will depend on how the young guys gel together - maybe, after an entire season of White at the helm, Dejounte looks to be expendable (especially if Vassell keeps developing at a quick pace, since a lot of their skills overlap), or maybe Lonnie shows us nothing and the FO gets him on the cheap.

Right now, I don't see Lonnie being worth 16M, nor do I think he thinks that, nor the FO, so it's a bit early to be panicking about this. I also, sadly, am not really optimistic on chances of the Spurs being able to get Collins, so...

Yeah, it's all on the assumption the young guys start to realize their potential. With that said, it would be a pretty big fail on Lonnie's part if he can't get a bigger (or same) first contract than DJ seeing as how he was picked higher in the draft. Hope that doesn't weigh heavy on his mind.

[Dejounte]

Nice work; good stuff.

I'd file this under Good Problems To Have. If KJ ends up worth a max deal and LW4 ends up worth White/Murray money, that means they're making outstanding progress. There's obviously still a long road to travel before either of those scenarios become a reality.

Signing a max player in the offseason would tighten the budget going forward, which is worth factoring in when the Spurs are considering a max offer to someone on Collins' level. That said, if the Spurs can sign a player who is clearly worth a max level contract, you likely just sign him and let the chips fall where they may.

I agree. You sign a max player who is clearly worth it.

To me, this exercise is to raise questions about the future:

Signing Collins now impacts our ability to keep our high ceiling guys a few years from now. It impacts what role players we can sign in 2023.

And then it leads to,

Is Collins' upside greater than Lonnie's? Is it greater than Vassell?

When you have something to lose, you've got to ask these questions...

Thankfully, I'm not being paid to make these decisions. Just trying to anticipate what might happen even though everything hinges on certain factors.

[exstatic]

https://imgur.com/jM2wov4https://imgur.com/jM2wov4https://i.imgur.com/jM2wov4.png

Assuming Lonnie Walker is signed to a contract similar to DJ's and we do not do anything else significant with the remaining 2021 cap space:

https://i.imgur.com/TmmSxMY.png

https://i.imgur.com/ltJJJll.png

I tried to be as minimally controversial as I could with the "Expected Floor and Ceiling" of each player. I projected Keldon as a future All-Star and as someone who would be paid as a max player when his rookie deal allows it in 2023. I mean, we'd hope he'd reach that level anyway.

The point of putting those projections is to see how the Spurs are using their investments.

For year 2023, I assumed Poetl would be paid roughly the same.

We literally can't keep all the young guys together if we end up signing a max player next offseason.

Something's got to give.

The extension kicks in the following year, just like always. Entering Lonnie’s year 3, they’ve already pick up his option for next year, and set that salary.

[Dejounte]

The extension kicks in the following year, just like always. Entering Lonnie’s year 3, they’ve already pick up his option for next year, and set that salary.

Yeah, the extension kicks in 2022, no?

[offset formation]

Sorry, I could have elaborated better.

Yes, the first photo assumes we'll pay John Collins the max in 2021 and nothing else significant with the remainder of the cap space.

The second photo assumes we'll extend Lonnie to a contract similar to DJ's.

The third photo assumes we extend Poetl in 2023 at the same rate and assumes we'll extend Keldon to a max contract.

This is all ignoring the contracts we're going to our future draft picks (assuming we keep them).

Lonnie is going to have to play similarly to last night for most of this season to garner DJ contract type money.

[Dejounte]

Lonnie is going to have to play similarly to last night for most of this season to garner DJ contract type money.

As we're all hoping he will...

If not, then it's going to be a shitty season. I think he plays a big factor in this season's success.

[RC_Drunkford]

I agree. You sign a max player who is clearly worth it.

To me, this exercise is to raise questions about the future:

Signing Collins now impacts our ability to keep our high ceiling guys a few years from now. It impacts what role players we can sign in 2023.

And then it leads to,

Is Collins' upside greater than Lonnie's? Is it greater than Vassell?

When you have something to lose, you've got to ask these questions...

Thankfully, I'm not being paid to make these decisions. Just trying to anticipate what might happen even though everything hinges on certain factors.

well technically we could always resign everybody since we have bird rights. It's just a question of wanting to get into the tax. So I wouldn't be worried.

[offset formation]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but let's be real... what the Spurs have done the past 3+ years makes everything in the future predictable. They remain as stagnant as they possibly could and make changes (like trades) like turtles compared to other teams. It's not far off to think all they'll keep doing is make solid draft picks, sign low risk free agents, and make insignificant trades.

We also might have the quickest turnaround without tanking in NBA history, and that's with getting fucked on the organizational plan with building around neph. So once again, our turtle approach beats the hares (76ers, Minnesota, etc)

[Dejounte]

well technically we could always resign everybody since we have bird rights. It's just a question of wanting to get into the tax. So I wouldn't be worried.

I didn't really pay attention to the salary cap usage during our glory years.... are the Spurs an organization who are willing to pay luxury tax if they have a winning team?

[exstatic]

Well, if both Collins and Keldon turn out to be legit max players then you have to choose 2 of White, DJ, and Lonnie to go forward with, and the other can be flipped for draft assets. They’d have to decide the same 2 of 3 math the next year with the 2 survivors and Devin. Sammich should be flipped this off season, as he’d be a sure casualty.

Let’s see if they can even sign Collins, and if Keldon explodes into max talent first, though.

[timvp]

I didn't really pay attention to the salary cap usage during our glory years.... are the Spurs an organization who are willing to pay luxury tax if they have a winning team?

Yeah, they paid luxury tax some years. As high as ~$9 million, IIRC. They were a lux tax paying team as recently as 2015-16.

FYI, luxury tax threshold is projected to be $140 million in 2023 and $145 million in 2024. Then after that, a new TV deal kicks in, which historically means a big jump. So, yeah, some other tidbits to add to the projections.

[offset formation]

What if the best free agent next year is...DeMar DeRozan?

We know some are already off the market and Collins looks likely to seek max dollars and ultimately resign with ATL. Not sure we have another best option.

Given how much Pop seems to love him, I could see Pop trying to re-sign him. Not sure they'd want to max him out but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility.:clap

[Dejounte]

What if the best free agent next year is...DeMar DeRozan?

We know some are already off the market and Collins looks likely to seek max dollars and ultimately resign with ATL. Not sure we have another best option.

Given how much Pop seems to love him, I could see Pop trying to re-sign him. Not sure they'd want to max him out but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility.:clap

EDIT: SEE POST #39


If DeRozan must be kept, in order for him to have good value for us, it must be around the $20,000,000 range. His value is depreciating, so it's best if it was just slightly lower than that.

[whydoihavetodothis]

We aren't getting John Collins anyway. He's a Restricted Free Agent you think Alt isn't going to match any offer he gets and let him walk for nothing?

[Dejounte]

We aren't getting John Collins anyway. He's a Restricted Free Agent you think Alt isn't going to match any offer he gets and let him walk for nothing?

Your first post since signing up in 2018. Welcome to the board.

If Atlanta really wanted to keep him, they would have made a deal this past off-season. Instead, they didn't. That's because they do not want to go a certain number for John since they do not value him that much.

[whydoihavetodothis]

Yeah I made this account back in 2018 because the forums required you needed to have an account in order to view the forum posts but I mostly just lurked.

From Atlanta's point of view if they aren't planning on keeping him then I don't understand why they wouldn't just trade him this season for a 1st round pick that way they don't have to pay him and the team he gets traded to can have his RFA rights. I'm sure they could give at least a late first round pick for him this season since his salary is very easy to match right now (he's only making 4 million), Trade Collins to anyone for a 4 million dollar scrub of the bench + 1 FRP would be an easy trade if they have no desire in keeping him long term.

My guess as to why he didn't sign an extension is maybe the Haws tried to low-ball him and he declined and they couldn't come to an agreement before the deadline. Also let's say he asked for the max extension, well the Hawks don't have to agree to that even if they are willing to do it, because they can let him test the open market and see if a team is willing to pay him the max. If a team is then they can just match but if no teams are willing to give him the max then Alt saves money. Also if he gets injured this season then Alt saves money by not giving him the max extension.

What the Hawks are doing is really smart, if they gave him the max extension this year they'd have to hope he doesn't regress otherwise it becomes a bad contract, by waiting they can also see if he continues to improve and if he regresses then other teams are less likely to give him a max which saves the Hawks money by not doing it this year. There's really no advantage to giving him the max early imo and that's probably what he was asking for.

I think the Hawks are trying to win now and losing Collins for nothing is going to make them look bad when it's time for Trae Young to decide to commit to them long term. Even if they don't want Collins on the team anymore because they don't think he's worth it, the Hawks would probably try to work out a sign in trade next offseason since he is one of the biggest free agents a lot of teams will be interested.

I guess I just can't see the Hawks letting Collins go and if they do I can't see them not trying to get some sort of compensation for him. I'd be great if he ended up with the Spurs since I think he would fit well with us.

[TDMVPDPOY]

why waste a max slot on a centre in a perimeter orientated league.... could just sign some cheap big

[Russ]

Outside of 3-4 players in the league, signing a max player is generally a mistake.

Blessing in disguise.

(And, anyway, what max player would anyone want next year?)

[Dejounte]

Outside of 3-4 players in the league, signing a max player is generally a mistake.

Blessing in disguise.

(And, anyway, what max player would anyone want next year?)


DING DING DING! BINGO!

I did more work and it confirms what you just said there.

https://i.ibb.co/0cPTwm8/wow.png

*Obviously I didn't list all the players in the NBA, but everything from the 6th man column to the right most column covers ALL players paid in that range.

I wrote next to each name if they seem likely to underperform/overperform or just do OK value-wise to their contract.

A lot of players are signed to contracts that basically HANDICAPS the hell out of their teams.

And people shit on the Spurs for roster mismanagement...

Does John Collins really belong on the right side of this table? Will his upside get him there? I'm starting to be against it...

timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8)

P.S. a lot of these players I don't know their current level of play so I just put "N/A".

[Dejounte]

I wanted to see how fucked the Rockets' future is at this moment...

https://i.ibb.co/kqgL5L6/rockets.png

We'll see who they trade Harden for, but it's not looking good...

John Wall is way off from being a superstar, especially since he's taking 44% of the team's cap and I don't even think he can become an All-star again ever in his career. That is an AWFUL contract.

And they have no draft picks next year, right?

[Dejounte]

https://i.ibb.co/C7cRDDz/updd.png

Wanted to make adjustments to the previous table. I think this is more accurate.

Not sure why people shit on the Poetl contract. He takes up 8% of the team cap and players who take up that much are usually only regular bench players anyway. So if your expectations were low for Poetl, don't worry he's not being overpaid.

White and Murray are being paid with Key Starter money. They're actually on the lower end of it (right at 13%) and given that they both have upside to them, they are on good deals.

As mentioned earlier, if the Spurs view Collins as a sure fire star, then by all means go for it... I'm just concerned he actually wouldn't be the right gamble. 27%+ of the team cap is a lot, and very few players actually deserve it. Can Collins get on Towns' level? I doubt it.

[talkspurs]

https://i.ibb.co/C7cRDDz/updd.png

Wanted to make adjustments to the previous table. I think this is more accurate.

Not sure why people shit on the Poetl contract. He takes up 8% of the team cap and players who take up that much are usually only regular bench players anyway. So if your expectations were low for Poetl, don't worry he's not being overpaid.

White and Murray are being paid with Key Starter money. They're actually on the lower end of it (right at 13%) and given that they both have upside to them, they are on good deals.

As mentioned earlier, if the Spurs view Collins as a sure fire star, then by all means go for it... I'm just concerned he actually wouldn't be the right gamble. 27%+ of the team cap is a lot, and very few players actually deserve it. Can Collins get on Towns' level? I doubt it.

So he is more being paid as a 6th man then a regular bench player. I can understand where you got your numbers from but it does not fit into a neat chart like that. If you have somone being paid as a Superstar then either your starters or bench will take less. I would say on a typical team you may have one or two on the bench making MLE money. When Manu was here he made a little more but the starter at 2 usually made less. We also had a lot of min players. I believe speedy was a min contract player. I am interested to see how his contract ages. I dont think it is a big overpay but I do believe it is an overpay. I would have rather lost him and gone after Giles. Especially with Ewbanks coming back I think we could have taken that chance.

[Dejounte]

So he is more being paid as a 6th man then a regular bench player. I can understand where you got your numbers from but it does not fit into a neat chart like that. If you have somone being paid as a Superstar then either your starters or bench will take less. I would say on a typical team you may have one or two on the bench making MLE money. When Manu was here he made a little more but the starter at 2 usually made less. We also had a lot of min players. I believe speedy was a min contract player. I am interested to see how his contract ages. I dont think it is a big overpay but I do believe it is an overpay. I would have rather lost him and gone after Giles. Especially with Ewbanks coming back I think we could have taken that chance.

Yes, if you have superstars being paid superstar money, you have no choice but to find veteran players who can outperform their contract. These players are those usually ring chasing and the ones who will take less than what they could get.

The Spurs had a lot of minimum salary players because the Spurs were great at squeezing what's left out of washed up veterans. They made them key role players when no one would find use for them.

Poetl is not an overpay if you think what he's being paid is starter level money. That's all my point is.

The key is also not paying non-superstars superstar money... ahem Tobias Harris, Kemba Walker, Bradley Beal, etc.

[cd98]

Remember this is all fueled by the Spurs winning one game. They’ll lose plenty and most of the guys that are being extolled today will be ridiculed and demanded that they be benched or traded.

[Dejounte]

Remember this is all fueled by the Spurs winning one game. They’ll lose plenty and most of the guys that are being extolled today will be ridiculed and demanded that they be benched or traded.

Sure, and that's a thread for another day, with even more variety of different outcomes.

Either way, I think if we focus in on free agency next year-- there are no players available worth going after. If we bet all our chips on John Collins and surround him with mediocre players who didn't do anything this season, we're not going to be better than where we are now.

The thread also provides insight on who is overpaid, underpaid, and paid just about what they're worth.

[Dhbsr555]

I know I might get hate for this but signing dd to a two year extension might not be a bad idea

[Dejounte]

I know I might get hate for this but signing dd to a two year extension might not be a bad idea

$20,000,000 (Key Starter money) is good value for DeMar. Re-sign Gay for $8,000,000 (2nd Unit Money). Sign PJ Tucker or LaMarcus Aldridge with the rest (6th Man Money).

People might hate it, but we could very well end up with:

https://i.ibb.co/Tv8T7cj/salary.png

It would be the most "Spurs" thing to do. No major commitments. The contracts to DeMar, Rudy, and PJ could be made two year deals. We keep our flexibility for a real star to pay for the following year.

Not exactly the path I support, but I could totally see this happening.

People looking forward to a complete overhaul are in for a rude awakening... lol

[Dhbsr555]

Ya I think spurs can do damage this year once white comes back if dj and Lonnie are consistent

[tim_duncan_fan]

It's better winning with the guys you drafted anyway.

Of course, if we drafted too well with White, Keldon, Vassell, and DJ and/or Lonnie eventually, paying them all/having them all feel fulfilled will be the other problem. Heck, even Tall Luka might still become a player. We won't be able to keep everyone.

[Arcadian]

what in the spurs history makes u think a max player would sign here...........lma was an anomaly no marquee free agent wants to live in san antonio......if this was austin yes this convo would be totally different

Since the latter is only 80 miles away, doesn't that help the matter?

[bluebellmaniac]

If DMDR is willing to follow the role of a facilitator and allow the shots to be spread around, I'm all for bringing him back. The dream is being able to go 10 deep with solid role players coming off the bench, all the while keeping the tenacity up for the entire game. Can it happen? Is it even possible? That's a long shot of shots, but would be hella fun to watch even if the fix was in against them.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Atlanta’s cap situation is complicated going forward as well, especially with Young’s extension coming up. They’d have a hard time matching a max offer for Collins and staying under the tax for the next few years. They’ll have to make trades as they won’t be able to keep all of their draftees. I expect them to try exploring sign and trade scenarios for Collins next summer, unless he makes a big step up and proves being a max player.

As already mentioned paying max money for non max players is the quickest way to get in trouble. I don’t see Collins as one. If there’s even a slight chance that the OP scenario of Keldon and Lonnie growing to be really good comes true I’d rather the Spurs keep their options open instead of tying up all of their cap space for players who aren’t worth it and losing their own. Even if it means paying DDR(yeah I know) for a couple more years.

In any case it’d be a great job if Lonnie, Keldon, Vassell and maybe even Luka develop enough to get White-like extensions considering where they were drafted. Teams need a true superstar to be contenders but for a small market team having a bunch of really good players to build around is a nice position to be in.

[Dejounte]

Probably a good idea too to watch the Hawks this season for John Collins alone if you have access to league pass or streams, if you have time.

Make it worth crying over John after the Spurs (probably) make zero effort to go after him next offseason. Then, you can tell us why the Spurs missed out and your reasons would be legitimate and well-informed because you actually watched John play!

Same for Lauri. I just watched some highlights just now (not as good as watching the full game) from the the Bulls' first regular season game and I vomited in my mouth a little. The dude is terrible and not anywhere close to being worth the max.

[Dejounte]

If there's any great takeaway I have from all this,

It's that it's better to have your superstar (likely developed from within) already in hand before you go after a gamble like John.

John alone is likely not a first or second option star on a championship team, so why go after Chris Bosh when you don't have LeBron or Wade yet?

Also, if White can make a big jump to borderline All Star like few of us believe he can, that's insane value on his contract that we have him locked up for.

[RC_Drunkford]

$20,000,000 (Key Starter money) is good value for DeMar. Re-sign Gay for $8,000,000 (2nd Unit Money). Sign PJ Tucker or LaMarcus Aldridge with the rest (6th Man Money).

People might hate it, but we could very well end up with:

https://i.ibb.co/Tv8T7cj/salary.png

It would be the most "Spurs" thing to do. No major commitments. The contracts to DeMar, Rudy, and PJ could be made two year deals. We keep our flexibility for a real star to pay for the following year.

Not exactly the path I support, but I could totally see this happening.

People looking forward to a complete overhaul are in for a rude awakening... lol

There's no way that DeRozan signs a 20 million dollar contract. Maybe something close to what he's getting now, 27-29 million, but nothing less than that. There will be teams overpaying for sure. He actually fits in very well with this new style of play, so I'm not opposed to resigning him.

[Dejounte]

There's no way that DeRozan signs a 20 million dollar contract. Maybe something close to what he's getting now, 27-29 million, but nothing less than that. There will be teams overpaying for sure. He actually fits in very well with this new style of play, so I'm not opposed to resigning him.

It would be a tough sell, for sure. But maybe he's grown attached to the organization, teammates, and city that's he'll take a paycut. Otherwise, the only way $27 mil would be okay is if it were on 1 or 2 year deals. We'd probably lose out on a veteran in the pool (like PJ or Aldridge) because of that. I'd be okay with it.

[widowmaker]

Relax ain’t nobody worth the shit is gonna want to sign here.

[DavidTheGoliath]

This migjt be demars last chance to get a big contract so i doubt he'll take a paycut.

[RC_Drunkford]

It would be a tough sell, for sure. But maybe he's grown attached to the organization, teammates, and city that's he'll take a paycut. Otherwise, the only way $27 mil would be okay is if it were on 1 or 2 year deals. We'd probably lose out on a veteran in the pool (like PJ or Aldridge) because of that. I'd be okay with it.

lol no way. He's not Manu and I assume he would want a longer contract

[JeffDuncan]

lol no way. He's not Manu and I assume he would want a longer contract

Right, DDR will be 32 next season, so he'll be keenly interested in his "last big contract." Gotta be.

[ducks]

Do you think the Leonard thing will attract a max fa ?

[talkspurs]

So I would not want LMA or DDR back unless they would come real cheap which I dont think either would. Im talking 15 mil for each and even then only like a 2 year deal. I would still probably be against signing them as we need to move on and the only way we can is to let them go. Also with the extra money we can front load contracts. I know we already signed white but if we would not have been able to find someone we could have front loaded his contract. Still give him the 74 but do something like 27 22 15 10. this would give us more cap room in the future for us to do the same and try and lure other players away by front loading it. Also helps with us signing our own guys and not hitting the tax in future years and making him easier to trade if needed. I know you can do a decreasing load I just dont know the rules behind it.

[tonight...you]

This migjt be demars last chance to get a big contract so i doubt he'll take a paycut.
You might be right, but Demar's a unique individual. He's a weird dude.
I wouldn't dot that 'i' quite yet.

[tonight...you]

By the by: great thread Dejounte.

[Dejounte]

Right, DDR will be 32 next season, so he'll be keenly interested in his "last big contract." Gotta be.

Rudy Gay has been here for four years, and each contract has been 1 year, 2 year deals. The reason for multi-year contracts is security. There's also security when there's trust. The Spurs are a loyal organization and if they told DeMar they want him as a Spur forever but he's gotta work with them, then I think DeMar would be keen on working it out.

[talkspurs]

Rudy Gay has been here for four years, and each contract has been 1 year, 2 year deals. The reason for multi-year contracts is security. There's also security when there's trust. The Spurs are a loyal organization and if they told DeMar they want him as a Spur forever but he's gotta work with them, then I think DeMar would be keen on working it out.

Rudy took the first one as he was coming back from injury. He took the second one because we overpaid him to take a 2 year deal and we were contenders. He was looking at MLE money if we did not sign him but we signed him for almost double MLE so he got his 4 year pay in 2.

[JeffDuncan]

Rudy Gay ...

Is not who we're talking about.

My comment was about DDR.

[Dejounte]

Is not who we're talking about.

My comment was about DDR.

Yeah, I know. I was providing an example of how "last big contracts" can be secured in different ways, depending on the team.

[Atl Spur]

Between 18-22 mil per year x 3 ( 3rd year player option ) for DeMar works. PJ would be a solid addition + solid young big man. I know some negative Nancy’s don’t want to hear but our drafting prowess has paid dividends and we are on a upward trajectory! Enjoy the ride..... Merry Christmas

[R. DeMurre]

As already mentioned paying max money for non max players is the quickest way to get in trouble. I don’t see Collins as one. If there’s even a slight chance that the OP scenario of Keldon and Lonnie growing to be really good comes true I’d rather the Spurs keep their options open instead of tying up all of their cap space for players who aren’t worth it and losing their own. Even if it means paying DDR(yeah I know) for a couple more years.

In any case it’d be a great job if Lonnie, Keldon, Vassell and maybe even Luka develop enough to get White-like extensions considering where they were drafted. Teams need a true superstar to be contenders but for a small market team having a bunch of really good players to build around is a nice position to be in.


Agreed. Collins has some nice attributes, but I don't think he can lead a team to a championship, even a deep team. I guess the only argument for him would be that his max would still be lower than the current max contracts of guys like LeBron, Giannis, or Kawhi.

I agree that generally a true superstar is pretty vital to a championship, but the Spurs probably have a legit claim to the last championship that didn't feature a superstar in his prime... In '14, Duncan, Ginobili, & Parker were still very effective, but all past their peaks, and Kawhi, while extremely effective wasn't yet a star... so maybe if anyone can hope to win a future title without a max superstar, at least the Spurs can be in that conversation.

[Prime BEEF]

Agreed. Collins has some nice attributes, but I don't think he can lead a team to a championship, even a deep team. I guess the only argument for him would be that his max would still be lower than the current max contracts of guys like LeBron, Giannis, or Kawhi.

I agree that generally a true superstar is pretty vital to a championship, but the Spurs probably have a legit claim to the last championship that didn't feature a superstar in his prime... In '14, Duncan, Ginobili, & Parker were still very effective, but all past their peaks, and Kawhi, while extremely effective wasn't yet a star... so maybe if anyone can hope to win a future title without a max superstar, at least the Spurs can be in that conversation.
Have to disagree. Kawhi turned into a superstar and everyone looking back at it would say his stardom really started in 2013/2014 titles vs the heatles. Aside from some on ST, most nba fans would not agree that the 2014 spurs didn’t have a superstar.

to me the only title team to win it without a superstar since the 79’ Sonics is the 2004 Pistons. No one else comes close.

[R. DeMurre]

Have to disagree. Kawhi turned into a superstar and everyone looking back at it would say his stardom really started in 2013/2014 titles vs the heatles. Aside from some on ST, most nba fans would not agree that the 2014 spurs didn’t have a superstar.

to me the only title team to win it without a superstar since the 79’ Sonics is the 2004 Pistons. No one else comes close.

In terms of advanced stats & effectiveness, I agree Kawhi was already at star level, but I think going into those playoffs after a season where he averaged 13 & 6, few were saying he was in the same tier as any of the top ten finishers in the MVP voting. That season, Timmy & Parker finished tied for 12th in MVP voting, and Kawhi didn't get any votes at all.

The thing I'll always remember about 2004 is that Bill Russell predicted the Pistons would beat the Lakers because of their defense, and a whole bunch of people on a basketball website I was following way back then were clowning him & saying he was old and didn't understand the modern game. That was pretty great.

[TD 21]

Scumbag wasn't a star, let alone superstar, in '14.

All max contracts are not created equal . . .

Players with 0-6 years of experience can earn up to 25% of the cap.
Players with 7-9 years of experience can earn up to 30% of the cap.
Players with 10+ years of experience can earn up to 35% of the cap.

Collins would obviously fit into column A. Whether he's worth it or not is irrelevant in this case because either way it's close enough and if they want him, it'll have to be that, probably along with a certain structure (frontloaded, trade kicker) to dissuade them from matching.

Sure, barring Johnson becoming at least a borderline superstar, the core would have a sub championship ceiling, but most do and it's clear the front office isn't interested in tanking to increase the odds of drafting such a player, so adding another significant young piece for essentially free could take precedence. Accumulate enough of those and they'd be simultaneously building a package for a possible star trade.

[Atl Spur]

It was NOT widely recognized Kawhi being a superstar in 2014; stop making up stuff to support your position sir! We can win without a single focal pointed player until one emerges as Leonard did:)

[Atl Spur]

Is Jaylon Brown a Star?

[Dejounte]

Is Jaylon Brown a Star?

He's their second go-to guy who doesn't struggle to score when needed so I personally think so.

[XDT76]

If all our young guys can average around 16 5 5 then I am happy for the team to not have a superstar. As all our young guys have shown potential on 2 ways image harden, Luca, Westbrook has to deal with white, DJM, Walker Vasell all game it's like no rest the whole game and even when switch. Whereas our guys can catch a breather even when they are on court.

[talkspurs]

Scumbag wasn't a star, let alone superstar, in '14.

All max contracts are not created equal . . .

Players with 0-6 years of experience can earn up to 25% of the cap.
Players with 7-9 years of experience can earn up to 30% of the cap.
Players with 10+ years of experience can earn up to 35% of the cap.

Collins would obviously fit into column A. Whether he's worth it or not is irrelevant in this case because either way it's close enough and if they want him, it'll have to be that, probably along with a certain structure (frontloaded, trade kicker) to dissuade them from matching.

Sure, barring Johnson becoming at least a borderline superstar, the core would have a sub championship ceiling, but most do and it's clear the front office isn't interested in tanking to increase the odds of drafting such a player, so adding another significant young piece for essentially free could take precedence. Accumulate enough of those and they'd be simultaneously building a package for a possible star trade.

You cant front load a max contract as it is so much the first year with so much in raises. It also is relevant if he is worth it as that helps determine what we shouldtn pay for him and when we should walk away.

[Dejounte]

If the Spurs believe John can eventually get to the level of the following players: Joel Embiid, Nikola Jokic, Karl Anthony Towns, Bam Adebayo... then yeah, they should go for it. These are players who earn the same amount John would get if/when he gets the max in 2021, and are absolutely worth it.

The ideal power forward for me would be someone we draft and could groom to become a more defensive-minded Brandon Ingram or Pascal Siakam type PF. If there's a prospect like that in next year's draft, why go for someone like Collins? Are we in that much of in a hurry?

The Hawks recently put Collins as their full-time C and DeAndre Hunter as their PF. Hawks fans have concerns about Collins being unplayable in the playoffs. The risk here is that he underperforms with that contract because of these concerns and will be untradeable.

Being unable to play because of defense is a serious concern for me. It's what I think happened with DeMarre Carroll.

Also, in order to sign Collins to the max, we would have to renounce all of our free agents. If I'm not wrong, that means after we sign Collins, we would have to dig through the scraps to fill our depth. That sounds like something I'm more open to do if we were signing a superstar, not John freaking Collins.

It just sounds more unrealistic by the day. The negatives outweigh the positives.

[TD 21]

You cant front load a max contract as it is so much the first year with so much in raises. It also is relevant if he is worth it as that helps determine what we shouldtn pay for him and when we should walk away.

Fair enough. I'm just saying, let's say he's guaranteed something like minimum 90% of the max and they're interested, I don't think the extra 10% should be what dissuades them.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/YossiGozlan/status/1342633217749262337?s=19

$20.75 million per year. That's high end Key Starter money and low end Borderline All Star money. About 20% of the team cap. If Schroder continues his good play, that's worth it I believe. Lakers front office is underrated, they use their money well. Of course they got lucky with the hard part (LeBron and Davis) so who knows what they could do if they were a small market team.

https://i.ibb.co/C7cRDDz/updd.png

[Fusternino]

The Spurs only have 5 FA's next offseason-the 4 vets and Lyles. Why does it matter if you have to renounce them? If anything because of Bird Rights now is the time to get a high-end FA because we can just go over the cap to keep anyone from Summer 2022 onwards, just like how GS got Durant.

[talkspurs]

This will also have tax implications for them if they go with that amount and would have lots of small deals on their list. So even with 2 max they have 3-4 well paid players and then it goes to small contracts.

[Dejounte]

The Spurs only have 5 FA's next offseason-the 4 vets and Lyles. Why does it matter if you have to renounce them? If anything because of Bird Rights now is the time to get a high-end FA because we can just go over the cap to keep anyone from Summer 2022 onwards, just like how GS got Durant.

Five FA's seems a lot to lose for a marginal upgrade in Collins... How many wins would Collins really add?

As far as going over the cap, the highest we've gone over it is 9M per timvp. That doesn't seem like a lot.

Just playing devil's advocate...

[mo7888]

Five FA's seems a lot to lose for a marginal upgrade in Collins... How many wins would Collins really add?

As far as going over the cap, the highest we've gone over it is 9M per timvp. That doesn't seem like a lot.

Just playing devil's advocate...

I agree with this. There's no way I renounce everyone for the privilege of paying Collins the max. Collins or Lauri I see at the 18-20M/yr range and I'm not even really excited at that #. I'd much rather draft a PF, trying and pickup a young guy like Precious in a trade (if for instance Miami decides they want LMA), or try and rehab a young PF who hasn't done well with his initial team.

[talkspurs]

Five FA's seems a lot to lose for a marginal upgrade in Collins... How many wins would Collins really add?

As far as going over the cap, the highest we've gone over it is 9M per timvp. That doesn't seem like a lot.

Just playing devil's advocate...

I think that was the furthest we have gone into the tax is 9mil. There is a little more then 20 mil between the cap and the tax. I also see us looking at getting rid of some of the older players as a good thing. Mostly DDR and LMA. We would have to fill them in with some people and I am fine if they are vets. I just want our two high usage players gone.

[JeffDuncan]

Yeah, I know. I was providing an example of how "last big contracts" can be secured in different ways, depending on the team.

No, you responded on the subject of short term contracts. You were trying to talk yourself into the idea that DDR would accept a 1yr or 2yr deal, because Rudy Gay - coming off a full rupture of an achilles tendon - accepted a short term deal with the Spurs. But, really now. It is not the same thing.

DDR just began this season with a statline of 28, 9, 9. The early indication is, he'll equal his career numbers, perhaps exceed them this season. He will have no interest in a short term deal at less than his current contract. Nor should he.

Is that a problem? Nah. Let him go. Let some other team pay him. With the Spurs' current group of youngsters, augmented by whoever the Spurs can pick up, should we fear playing against DDR, if he goes to another team?

With Keldon, and Derrick, and the guys, would you be worried about playing against DDR? I would not. Maybe I should, but I don't see it as a big concern. I'd worry much more about Morant, Trae Young, Doncic, Giannis, than about DDR on another team.

I'll root for DDR as best I can this season, but then, I hope the team looks elsewhere.

[R. DeMurre]

I see the Spurs sitting back this year and seeing who emerges from the crowd as productive players, and then throwing a little bit of money at one or more of them.

Think about someone like Domantas Sabonis-- he started last season with a previous best of 14.1/9.3/2.9, finished the year @ 18.5/12.4/5.0, and then signed a 4 year/$77mil contract. Someone's bound to have that Sabonis/Christian Wood kind of breakout year.

[Dejounte]

No, you responded on the subject of short term contracts. You were trying to talk yourself into the idea that DDR would accept a 1yr or 2yr deal, because Rudy Gay - coming off a full rupture of an achilles tendon - accepted a short term deal with the Spurs. But, really now. It is not the same thing.

DDR just began this season with a statline of 28, 9, 9. The early indication is, he'll equal his career numbers, perhaps exceed them this season. He will have no interest in a short term deal at less than his current contract. Nor should he.

Is that a problem? Nah. Let him go. Let some other team pay him. With the Spurs' current group of youngsters, augmented by whoever the Spurs can pick up, should we fear playing against DDR, if he goes to another team?

With Keldon, and Derrick, and the guys, would you be worried about playing against DDR? I would not. Maybe I should, but I don't see it as a big concern. I'd worry much more about Morant, Trae Young, Doncic, Giannis, than about DDR on another team.

I'll root for DDR as best I can this season, but then, I hope the team looks elsewhere.

Listen, I'm aware of Rudy Gay's situation prior to joining the Spurs and how DeMar is in a different league than Rudy.

I just don't think DeMar has better opportunities for himself than he does with the Spurs, regardless of multi-year offers.

And on that topic, I don't even think there will be a big market for him. See below:

https://twitter.com/YossiGozlan/status/1341171682749267969

1. Charlotte won't have enough money for DeMar, not over the Spurs.
2. The Bulls have to renounce eight players to sign DeMar. Not happening.
3. Cavaliers aren't letting go of Drummond.
4. Dallas aren't renouncing their players for DeMar
5. Memphis aren't renouncing their players for DeMar
6. Miami isn't declining their team options on players
7. Will the Pelicans get renounce Ball and Hart to sign DeMar? DeMar seems like an awful fit with the Pelicans.
8. I could MAYBE see it happening with the Knicks, but given DeMar's roots does he want to play there? Does he want to start anew with young players to mentor all over again? Will money speak for DeMar?
9. The Thunder could go Chris Paul again with DeMar at the helm, so here's another challenger.
10. The Raptors aren't renouncing all their players for DeMar

I see the Thunder and the Knicks as the true challengers to taking DeMar, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you think it is.

[Prime BEEF]

In terms of advanced stats & effectiveness, I agree Kawhi was already at star level, but I think going into those playoffs after a season where he averaged 13 & 6, few were saying he was in the same tier as any of the top ten finishers in the MVP voting. That season, Timmy & Parker finished tied for 12th in MVP voting, and Kawhi didn't get any votes at all.

The thing I'll always remember about 2004 is that Bill Russell predicted the Pistons would beat the Lakers because of their defense, and a whole bunch of people on a basketball website I was following way back then were clowning him & saying he was old and didn't understand the modern game. That was pretty great.
Yup was fun watching the talking heads meltdown after the Pistons won with defense and teamwork

[Fusternino]

You can sign a max player, and bring back Gay + Mills + Lyles on the cheap to still be under the cap. Draft pick + min gets you to 15. How ready are we to talk away from LMA and DDR?

[Prime BEEF]

Is Jaylon Brown a Star?
He’s not an mvp candidate but yes he is a star

[JeffDuncan]

Listen, I'm aware of Rudy Gay's situation prior to joining the Spurs and how DeMar is in a different league than Rudy.


Then why did you mention Gay? But never mind, it doesn't matter. Forum discussions wander all over the place.



I just don't think DeMar has better opportunities for himself than he does with the Spurs, regardless of multi-year offers.


Last time I looked, this was December, 2020. What month and year does your calendar show? It's a little early to speculate, especially since injuries occur every season, all around the league.

Why keep DDR? With the imminent loss of LMA, who could retire, the team is in need of a real power forward.


...
I don't think it's as cut and dry as you think it is.

What is it that I think is cut and dry? Seriously. To what are you referring?

[JeffDuncan]

I see the Spurs sitting back this year and seeing who emerges from the crowd as productive players, and then throwing a little bit of money at one or more of them.

Think about someone like Domantas Sabonis-- he started last season with a previous best of 14.1/9.3/2.9, finished the year @ 18.5/12.4/5.0, and then signed a 4 year/$77mil contract. Someone's bound to have that Sabonis/Christian Wood kind of breakout year.

Well stated. It isn't about who looks good now, but instead, who will look good next summer.

[murpjf88]

People will be upset because they won't understand the implications of other moves towards the cap, but I think this is the most realistic thing that will happen.

After the Marcus Morris shitshow and the DeMarre Carroll disappointment, it is way too risky to invest that much money into a free agent... unless they absolutely know their character OR it's a surefire superstar like LeBron James/ Giannis.

As if Morris or Carroll were anything more than bargain basement signings, not risky at all.

[Dejounte]

Then why did you mention Gay? But never mind, it doesn't matter. Forum discussions wander all over the place.



Last time I looked, this was December, 2020. What month and year does your calendar show? It's a little early to speculate, especially since injuries occur every season, all around the league.

Why keep DDR? With the imminent loss of LMA, who could retire, the team is in need of a real power forward.



What is it that I think is cut and dry? Seriously. To what are you referring?

You brought up that DeMar would be interested in a last big contract > I disputed that by saying the Spurs would be able to offer that, but in a different way because... > Spurs have reputation of taking care of vets > Gay is mentioned as someone who the Spurs have taken care of (1 year, 2 year deals), regardless of his injury status and talent level compared to DeMar > the Spurs can promise a second contract after a 2 year deal and continue that cycle to Demar, which would essentially be a multi year contract.

Regarding it's "too early" to speculate. You have tons of people here talking about who they want to draft with a top 10 pick next year.

You're being snappy for some reason. Not sure where that's coming from. We don't need to continue this if you're going to be like that.

[Dejounte]

As if Morris or Carroll were anything more than bargain basement signings, not risky at all.

On Morris: We lost Bertans as a result, an asset who probably could be flipped for a rotational piece
On Carroll: Paid $6,842,307 for him to do nothing. That's 5.53% of the team cap, he should have been used as a rotational piece.

To a big market team, these could be bargain basement signings. For a small market one? I don't think so.

Still, these failed signings demonstrate how much worse it could be if they made the wrong move to sign a player to the max if they weren't 100% sure about his abilities or his character.

[murpjf88]

On Morris: We lost Bertans as a result, an asset who probably could be flipped for a rotational piece
On Carroll: Paid $6,842,307 for him to do nothing. That's 5.53% of the team cap, he should have been used as a rotational piece.

To a big market team, these could be bargain basement signings. For a small market one? I don't think so.

Still, these failed signings demonstrate how much worse it could be if they made the wrong move to sign a player to the max if they weren't 100% sure about his abilities or his character.

Well, the Spurs lost one year of Bertans because they weren't going to sign him to any 5 year-80M contract anytime soon. And the Spurs value of Bertans was low to begin with and as with most trades the Spurs make, they probably would have got ripped off in any trade

[Dejounte]

Watching the Clippers vs Nuggets game right now...

The Clippers are trotting out two point guards (Bev and Jackson), two wings (Batum and Leonard) and a center (Zubac)

Who the fuck would Collins guard? Zubac is too strong for him and he's not quick enough against Batum and Leonard.

[R. DeMurre]

Batum looks totally revitalized in these first two games. I dunno, I guess there's something about playing in Charlotte that kills the passion of French basketball players...

[Dejounte]

Batum looks totally revitalized in these first two games. I dunno, I guess there's something about playing in Charlotte that kills the passion of French basketball players...

He does look good. I posted before we should've picked him up. He would have been a good mentor for Vassell.

Leonard looks like he hasn't slowed down.

A young version of Batum would look good today as a modern PF. He's holding his own out there. Not being a liability on either end.

[Atl Spur]

We’ll off load some assets in the near future; in Patfo we trust! The Wright fella doing well after all:)

[tbdog]

The Spurs only have 5 FA's next offseason-the 4 vets and Lyles. Why does it matter if you have to renounce them? If anything because of Bird Rights now is the time to get a high-end FA because we can just go over the cap to keep anyone from Summer 2022 onwards, just like how GS got Durant.


It's called cap holds. If you renounce your FA's, you lose bird rights. Each player has a cap hold until they sign a contract. Mills cap hold is 20mil for example

[Chucho]

Am I missing something? Not that DJ deserves his overpay, but he at least has an All NBA nod under his belt to justify why they made the investment. I can't think of anything about 4 that shows he's worth anything more than the absolute minimum it would take to keep him. Otherwise, "fuck you, thank you, bye", Flat Earthen.

Plenty of inconsistent, dim witted, "athletic" wings with "potential upside" polluting this joke of a league that will produce at 4's rate at a proportionate cap number.

[PICK-N-ROLL]

With DDR taking up a big % of the offense, does Lonnie step up big time or will it be Keldon’s time to shine? Assuming DDR leaves next year. This will determine where $ will be thrown around. However, if keeping DDR, I could see someone leaving in order to go after the money.

[exstatic]

He does look good. I posted before we should've picked him up. He would have been a good mentor for Vassell.

Leonard looks like he hasn't slowed down.

A young version of Batum would look good today as a modern PF. He's holding his own out there. Not being a liability on either end.

Get back to me at the end of the season to see if Mute Cancer plays more than 75% of the LACs games. The bubble didn’t have B2Bs, and after a 3 month rest, he still couldn’t make it through the playoffs.

As for Batum, I thought he might do well there. He’s like Boris in a few ways, but mainly in that he can impact the games without scoring much, the perfect teammate for a couple of selfish chuckers.

[Dejounte]

Get back to me at the end of the season to see if Mute Cancer plays more than 75% of the LACs games. The bubble didn’t have B2Bs, and after a 3 month rest, he still couldn’t make it through the playoffs.

As for Batum, I thought he might do well there. He’s like Boris in a few ways, but mainly in that he can impact the games without scoring much, the perfect teammate for a couple of selfish chuckers.

I wonder if Kawhi thinks he got his wish about his team needing to be smarter. Addition of Batum, Kennard, Ibaka + subtraction of Harrell could be good for that. But still, their point guards seem dumb and Paul is who he is when it matters most.

[JeffDuncan]

You brought up that DeMar would be interested in a last big contract ...


DDR will be 32 next season. Of course he will be looking for his last big contract. They all do, around his age. What he'll end up with, nobody knows yet.

For the point you're apparently trying to argue, LMA is a much better example than Rudy. LMA is on the second year of a 2yr deal. LMA will turn 36 next July. Presumably, there was mutual agreement for a shorter deal - shorter than the 4yr deal that LMA first signed with the Spurs - because LMA is probably near retirement.

Anyway, my preference is to let DDR leave. The younger players should develop to replace him adequately, and more, with their 3pt shooting, and better defense.

LMA is the one who's hard to replace, with his size and scoring ability. The Spurs' money, formerly spent on DDR, would be better spent in the power forward area, in the future.



You're being snappy for some reason. Not sure where that's coming from. We don't need to continue this if you're going to be like that.

Oh, don't get snippy just because someone is arguing with you on an internet forum.

[Dejounte]

DDR will be 32 next season. Of course he will be looking for his last big contract. They all do, around his age. What he'll end up with, nobody knows yet.

For the point you're apparently trying to argue, LMA is a much better example than Rudy. LMA is on the second year of a 2yr deal. LMA will turn 36 next July. Presumably, there was mutual agreement for a shorter deal - shorter than the 4yr deal that LMA first signed with the Spurs - because LMA is probably near retirement.

Anyway, my preference is to let DDR leave. The younger players should develop to replace him adequately, and more, with their 3pt shooting, and better defense.

LMA is the one who's hard to replace, with his size and scoring ability. The Spurs' money, formerly spent on DDR, would be better spent in the power forward area, in the future.



Oh, don't get snippy just because someone is arguing with you on an internet forum.

Seems like we're not really on opposite sides here. You're just more against DeMar coming back when I'm simply open to the fact. LMA is a good example, and I think Pau Gasol is another.

How am I being snippy? When you were the one being snappy? Confused.

[JeffDuncan]

Seems like we're not really on opposite sides here. You're just more against DeMar coming back when I'm simply open to the fact. ...


I explicitly told you I'm against DDR coming back. Have you been nipping a bit of the holiday cheer?

Why would you want DDR back? As opposed to spending the team money elsewhere, that is.



LMA is a good example, and I think Pau Gasol is another.


How is Gasol an example of what you were talking about? The Spurs didn't resign him to a shorter deal, they let him go, to the Bucks (while still paying part of his salary.)

The reason LMA is comparable, to what you were talking about, is that at the end of his 4 yr contract, the Spurs signed him to a 2 yr deal.

That corresponds to your advocacy of a shorter deal for DDR as he comes off his longer 5 yr contract. The Spurs already did that with LMA.

You see. That's why I said LMA would be a better example - for what you were talking about - than Rudy. The Spurs did it with LMA.

Are we there yet?



How am I being snippy? When you were the one being snappy? Confused.

Your confusion has nothing to do with anything I wrote. It's in your own head. Something to do with alcohol consumption?

[Chinook]

The Spurs extended Aldridge after his second year. The total years left after the extension was signed was four. They didn't give him a two-year deal after his contract ended.

[Dejounte]

I explicitly told you I'm against DDR coming back. Have you been nipping a bit of the holiday cheer?

Why would you want DDR back? As opposed to spending the team money elsewhere, that is.



How is Gasol an example of what you were talking about? The Spurs didn't resign him to a shorter deal, they let him go, to the Bucks (while still paying part of his salary.)

The reason LMA is comparable, to what you were talking about, is that at the end of his 4 yr contract, the Spurs signed him to a 2 yr deal.

That corresponds to your advocacy of a shorter deal for DDR as he comes off his longer 5 yr contract. The Spurs already did that with LMA.

You see. That's why I said LMA would be a better example - for what you were talking about - than Rudy. The Spurs did it with LMA.

Are we there yet?



Your confusion has nothing to do with anything I wrote. It's in your own head. Something to do with alcohol consumption?

You're too damn hostile for no reason. It really catches me off-guard. Too bad it could have been a civilized discussion. My time is better off responding to people who aren't as juvenile. There's plenty of people who offer that. No wonder I don't see your ass post much. Hope it stays that way. You're too combative.

3...2...1... Here comes another smartass response.

[JeffDuncan]

The Spurs extended Aldridge after his second year. The total years left after the extension was signed was four. They didn't give him a two-year deal after his contract ended.

That's correct, it was a 2 yr extension when he also exercised his player option.

[JeffDuncan]

You're too damn hostile for no reason.


Now you're just being nasty and dishonest, and too damn hostile for no reason.

I asked you why you want to keep DDR.

Answer that.



... You're too combative.


Life is hard, isn't it?



3...2...1... Here comes another smartass response.

From you.

[Dejounte]

Now you're just being nasty and dishonest, and too damn hostile for no reason.

I asked you why you want to keep DDR.

Answer that.



Life is hard, isn't it?



From you.

Flipping the script again. That's trolling 101. Whose alt is this? Stop fucking around.

Ahh, I know who you remind me of. It's like a Bizarro version of Drew. Going after people out of the blue. Drew was much better though. I'll give you a 2/10 for this trolling attempt.

[Atl Spur]

DDR has a useful skill set, is that really in question? Name the player who you want to replace him with....

[JeffDuncan]

Flipping the script again. That's trolling 101. Whose alt is this? Stop fucking around.

Ahh, I know who you remind me of. It's like a Bizarro version of Drew. Going after people out of the blue. Drew was much better though. I'll give you a 2/10 for this trolling attempt.

Oh, stop being nasty, dishonest, and hostile just because somebody on an internet forum argues with you. That is very childish behavior.

Why are you inclined to keep DDR?

[Dejounte]

Oh, stop being nasty, dishonest, and hostile just because somebody on an internet forum argues with you. That is very childish behavior.

Why are you inclined to keep DDR?

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oEjHFFPj80amL7lKg/giphy.gif

[JeffDuncan]

DDR has a useful skill set, is that really in question? Name the player who you want to replace him with....

Except, DDR's useful skills don't include energetic defense, or 3pt shooting. The latter puts him out of touch with the modern league, and the former puts him out of touch with the good young defenders on the Spurs.

Do our young guns need somebody to teach them how to dribble drive into traffic, stop, pump fake pump fake pump fake, and jump into the defender to try to get a foul call? I can't see it.

I'd like to see DRR replaced with a younger, "real" power forward. Who? Don't know yet. But LMA won't be here much longer, and then what?

[Fusternino]

Again, what's so wrong with OPJ?

[Fusternino]

Really starting to look like Spurs moved on from Metu too quickly. No other legit 4/5 on the roster to pair with Collins while also being the small ball 5.

[Chinook]

Metu isn't legit.

[R. DeMurre]

Great breakdown on the overall landscape. I'm leaning more & more towards hoping the Spurs can sign two quality net positive guys for depth with their cap space, while continuing to develop the young core. I just don't think there are any FAs coming up next off season that warrant jumping in with a max offer.

[Dejounte]

POSSIBLE 2021 TRADE TARGET ALERT!!

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1344800690539999232?s=19

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/JLew1050/status/1344680732611014661?s=19

Trade them DeMar + Luka + 2021 FRP

Murray/ Lonnie/ Tre
White/ Mills
Keldon/ Vassell
Siakam/ KBD/ Lyles
Poetl/ Eubanks

Poetl would LOVE to have his best friend back.

[bluebellmaniac]

https://twitter.com/JLew1050/status/1344680732611014661?s=19

Trade them DeMar + Luka + 2021 FRP

Murray/ Lonnie/ Tre
White/ Mills
Keldon/ Vassell
Siakam/ KBD/ Lyles
Poetl/ Eubanks

Poetl would LOVE to have his best friend back.

DMDR is probably gone next season anyway.
Siakam is a huge upgrade over what Sammy could become.
So next year's frp for Siakam is what it boils down to. A great trade for us.

Also fills a position of need and opens minutes for our young guards/wings. Perfect.

[Dejounte]

DMDR is probably gone next season anyway.
Siakam is a huge upgrade over what Sammy could become.
So next year's frp for Siakam is what it boils down to. A great trade for us.

Also fills a position of need and opens minutes for our young guards/wings. Perfect.

Lowry and DeMar would bring back their "culture" and fan favorite.

Tonight, they had 6'4" Norman Powell starting at small forward and OG at PF. He'd fit there fine.

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/aHq6mpfn8Yk

[Ice009]

Shit. I will take Pascal Siakam if he wants out. Someone mentioned Poeltl is his best friend? If true, get Jakob to give him a call and let's get the ball rolling. Pipe dream, I know, but man, I'd be happy to get someone like Pascal on the Spurs after the Kawhi bullshit. I wouldn't care about the trade at all or the past few years if we somehow got this trade.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/JLew1050/status/1345572568816873473?s=19

Doesn't sound like things are completely mended... Scored only 10 points tonight. Come to the Spurs, Siakam.

[bluebellmaniac]

https://twitter.com/JLew1050/status/1345572568816873473?s=19

Doesn't sound like things are completely mended... Scored only 10 points tonight. Come to the Spurs, Siakam.

Come... To the dark side... We have mariachis... And tacos.

[Dejounte]

Come... To the dark side... We have mariachis... And tacos.

Which one of you posted this on the Raptors subreddit?
Seems they would welcome a DeMar for Siakam trade:

https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/comments/kpcg57/spurs_fan_here/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[mo7888]

I'd buy hard on getting Siakam. I know Toronto is interested in Harden though so I think it'll be tough to pull him. I think it'll take more than ddr + Luka + a 1st.

[Dejounte]

I'd buy hard on getting Siakam. I know Toronto is interested in Harden though so I think it'll be tough to pull him. I think it'll take more than ddr + Luka + a 1st.

Highly doubt Houston feels the same way about Toronto's package. So I think there's a 'no deal' there.

[mo7888]

Highly doubt Houston feels the same way about Toronto's package. So I think there's a 'no deal' there.

Could be but I don't know what Toronto's package really is. If it ends up being Siakam + Norman + 4 1sts they'll have a real shot at a deal if they want it.

[Dejounte]

Could be but I don't know what Toronto's package really is. If it ends up being Siakam + Norman + 4 1sts they'll have a real shot at a deal if they want it.

Maybe. But if the Rockets care more about who the package is centered around (Siakam) than the long-term picks, then I think there are better offers (Simmons, Jaylen Brown).

The Raptors also are less scared if Harden doesn't re-sign with them since they crave immediate success, so that could give them a leg up against other teams.

We will see!

[r0drig0lac]

Could be but I don't know what Toronto's package really is. If it ends up being Siakam + Norman + 4 1sts they'll have a real shot at a deal if they want it.

Siakam + OG for Harden + assets is a done deal

[mo7888]

Maybe. But if the Rockets care more about who the package is centered around (Siakam) than the long-term picks, then I think there are better offers (Simmons, Jaylen Brown).

The Raptors also are less scared if Harden doesn't re-sign with them since they crave immediate success, so that could give them a leg up against other teams.

We will see!

Agree with that.... I'm basically saying it competitive and with Toronto in the mix for Harden it drives up our price for getting Siakam. We would have more leverage if things sour further with Siakam and mgmt if Harden is moved elsewhere. That's a good scenario for us. Another scenario that could be interesting is if Houston prioritizes space and young assets or picks instead of Siakam (or Brown etc). We might be able to work a 3 team deal if Houston is willing to deal with us.

[mo7888]

Siakam + OG for Harden + assets is a done deal

But can Harden, Lowery, and Van Fleet carry them far? I doubt it..

[Sugus]

Which one of you posted this on the Raptors subreddit?
Seems they would welcome a DeMar for Siakam trade:

https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/comments/kpcg57/spurs_fan_here/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

Wow, I wasn't expecting such a wholly positive reception to the DeMar trade. Especially considering how posters here view him.


Siakam + OG for Harden + assets is a done deal

Hmm, I don't know if so. The Rockets won't pull the trigger on any Harden deal until they know for sure that Simmons is off the table (and Philly will probably wait until the POs at the very least, to give Doc the chance at blowing yet another 3-1 lead). That creates an additional problem, since OG's extension should be kicking around by that time (I don't know when exactly the new contracts kick in for trade purposes), so the timing might make it complicated or even impossible. Furthermore, the Raptors probably would want to run the season out with Siakam before looking to trade him - if only to see whether he gets back to level.

Overall, I personally see Harden being Philly-bound right now, but the Raptors will certainly be aggressive in trade talks if they feel like Pascal as the #1 option won't take them anywhere. Their window is closing with Lowry aging out, big contracts kicking in in FVV and OG's, leaving them little room to replenish an already depleted roster from losing FAs last season. Definitely something to keep an eye on.

[Dejounte]

DeMar and Luka for Siakam, Aldridge for Draymond Green.

Problem solved.

Murray/ White
Lonnie/ Vassell
Keldon/ whoever
Siakam/ Lyles/ KBD
Green/ Poetl/ Eubanks

The key is getting players who can rotate quick enough to cover 3s and still having strength inside

[Dejounte]

https://youtu.be/KzzGs6ZpB0E

Draymond has a wide body and does a great job boxing out. Rebounds won't be that big of an issue

[spurrunner]

Listen, I'm aware of Rudy Gay's situation prior to joining the Spurs and how DeMar is in a different league than Rudy.

I just don't think DeMar has better opportunities for himself than he does with the Spurs, regardless of multi-year offers.

And on that topic, I don't even think there will be a big market for him. See below:

https://twitter.com/YossiGozlan/status/1341171682749267969

1. Charlotte won't have enough money for DeMar, not over the Spurs.
2. The Bulls have to renounce eight players to sign DeMar. Not happening.
3. Cavaliers aren't letting go of Drummond.
4. Dallas aren't renouncing their players for DeMar
5. Memphis aren't renouncing their players for DeMar
6. Miami isn't declining their team options on players
7. Will the Pelicans get renounce Ball and Hart to sign DeMar? DeMar seems like an awful fit with the Pelicans.
8. I could MAYBE see it happening with the Knicks, but given DeMar's roots does he want to play there? Does he want to start anew with young players to mentor all over again? Will money speak for DeMar?
9. The Thunder could go Chris Paul again with DeMar at the helm, so here's another challenger.
10. The Raptors aren't renouncing all their players for DeMar

I see the Thunder and the Knicks as the true challengers to taking DeMar, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you think it is.

Signing DDR is such a Knicks thing to do.

Plus, just think of hilarity of the situation. DDR crashing to the hole getting fouled with no call, then losing the game with his spiraling emotions. Then melting in front of the New York media. DDR making some crazy post on Facebook. The more I think about it the more I want this to happen.