Grades: Spurs vs. Lakers - Dec. 30, 2020

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-los-angeles-lakers-game-4/

[Spurs Homer]

Frustrating game to watch

but at least they competed

[phxspurfan]

Drew Eubanks
Eubanks got the minutes behind Poeltl. In the first quarter, he was an utter disaster. He was rushing things on offense, didn’t have any touch in the paint and seemingly made at least one mistake on each defensive possession. Considering that this was his first action of the season, it’s not overly surprising that he exhibited some rust.


I thought this too but why post it here when everyone's an expert and assumes our end of the bench 3rd big should play like season 10 Robert Horry when dusted off the bench for the first time in the season. He's had 0 playing time thus far. His shots in the beginning were short, and it makes sense if he has no feel and no reps. He did fine given the position he was thrown into, going up against one of, if not the, best frontcourt in the league. It's not like he was going up against the opposing 3rd string, 15th man big out there.

[Emperor]

So many things went against them but they fought through it regardless. Hopefully they win the next one.

[phxspurfan]

And yes they fought. I'm glad they played hard. The shitty players for LA shot freskishly well, which is just typical for a Spurs game.

Pop needs to come back to calling plays / coaching guys in game. I think he stopped holding guys accountable as much now that it's a player's league, which makes sense I guess, but leads to undisciplined shit which is what we saw a lot of tonight.

No plays to run = recipe for failure, especially when you're playing 8 on 5 and possessions are literally being taken away from you and given to the other team.

[John B]

Thanks for the grades. I like our guys competed until the very end. Lakers shots were just going in, and ours didn’t, plus some fouls that were not called. The would’ve been much closer. Still, unlike last year when it would’ve been 30 points lost without out two starters, this team hung-on. Our young guys were not intimidated. For that I would give them additional letter grades. Something good will just come out from this group. Is Lyles in the Demarre Carroll type doghouse? Geez. I don’t think he even go in when everybody got pulled.

[LurkingSpursFan]

4 shooting guards and a center is still midget ball

[Notorious H.O.P.]

You could literally see it in most plays when he was on the court. "Where's Patty at?"

[daslicer]

4 shooting guards and a center is still midget ball

One of the biggest problems I feel due to going small is that teams are always going to have the opportunity for a 4 point play at the free throw line based off of missing the second free throw and getting the offensive rebound. We saw this the other night when Derozan couldn't box out Zion when Ingram was at the freethrow line which resulted in a 5 point play. We saw it again tonight when Gasol was able to get I think a 4 point play off of a Davis miss at the free throw line.

[Dejounte]

4 shooting guards and a center is still midget ball


It doesn't matter

[Dejounte]

If it's any consolation, this is technically only the 10th game the starting line up has played together.

[rankingtear]

Perfect time to get rid of Murray's albatross contract.

[Fireball]

Wes Matthews beat us ... this could easily gotten out of hands but the spurs never gave up and competed nicely

[spurs10]

Wes Matthews beat us ... this could easily gotten out of hands but the spurs never gave up and competed nicely I get a couple times him being left alone, but over and over was really the end of us. Would need to rewatch to see how it happened, but what I did see didn't look especially contested. I was distracted a lot so who knows...?

[daslicer]

I get a couple times him being left alone, but over and over was really the end of us. Would need to rewatch to see how it happened, but what I did see didn't look especially contested. I was distracted a lot so who knows...?

FPcO2EohZH8

[R. DeMurre]

I think the Spurs are moving in the right direction generally, but this was just another frustrating game like so many from last year where DeRozan led the team in minutes and had the worst +/- of all the starters. It's not a statistical anomaly or glitch if it happens consistently for a decade. How the hell does Poeltl only get 24 minutes? Yes he had early foul trouble, but he finished with 3 fouls while Eubanks also logged 24 minutes, had 5 fouls, and was less effective in every way. Makes no sense. I'd rather see Poeltl play until he fouls out rather than see him get punished while less effective line ups fall further behind in the game.

[Bojo]

Overall, I'm quite okay with being .500 after 4 games. During the last two games, it felt like there was too much hesistation in letting it fly from outside. I love the team attacking the basket, but they need to establish being a threat from three early, too. If the Spurs' opponents only need to defend the paint, it's an uphill batle from the start.

Impressed with Murray and Johnson.
DJ has stretches where he scores from spots similar to Demar's. When Demar (hopefully) leaves, Murray might be able to fill his place on offense while adding way better defense.
Keldon plays fearless, and I wouldn't view those offensive fouls as too much of a problem. He's still a sophomore, and this will only show him (and his coaching staff), that he needs to work on a short jumper/floater to avoid those calls. With his work ethic and talent, I have no doubt he'll expand this aspect of his game quickly.

It's a process, let's see how the second match goes. As always, thanks for the grades, timvp!

[sananspursfan21]

I don’t think there was a lot the Spurs could have done to win last night. When the Lakers, who already have a massive physical advantage, major favor with the refs, and an almost all star team hit threes at that clip, there’s just no way their opponent can come out with a W. Definitely some things to correct, but the Spurs played pretty well if you ask me. Just not much can be done. I’d give the collective team a B+. Thanks for the grades!

[Chinook]

So the Spurs were assisted on their first 11 made shots before tallying 14 assists on their final 29. That drop-off in AST/FG ratio is the biggest problem for me. I did not like the way Murray played in the guts of the game. I'm only talking about him because I think fans took the wrong impression of his performance -- especially given those assist numbers. This looked like a game where the offense as a concept was hurt by Murray's decision to use entire possessions for his scoring efforts but the number ended up okay because DJM made the shots he took. So many times it was like, "All right let's get into our sets... oh no wait, DeJounte is going just go ahead and probe for a while instead." And yes, Murray's not the only one who's done this. timvp was basically saying Gay did this, and Walker started doing it at the end of the hot part of his night.

So many folks want the "Beautiful Game" offense and have no problem running Aldridge out of town because of it, but they don't seem to understand that it's that tendency to call your own number when you don't have an obvious advantage and to not go from good to great because you think you have it that undermines that whole style. Passing up open threes for floaters and contested twos isn't historically a good offensive decision. That those shots went in doesn't make it a good decision. And I am aware that with LMA out you can understand why Murray might've felt the team needed him to be aggressive. But if you don't give your offense a chance to work on its own, you're already committing to a game relying almost solely on individual talent, and that's not a game the Spurs can win all that often.

I think Walker lost confidence in the second half. I thought at his peak he was a little too aggressive, but that also seemed to be the play called for him. His defense seemed good enough to justify him getting minutes in the second half, but his lack of production probably didn't help Murray when deciding when to break the offense and when to let it flow.

Johnson wasn't really effective in the game. He, like Murray, called his own number more than I'd like. But he almost always did it off secondary penetration, so at least the offense flowed before he touched it. He needs a pull-up to keep the defense honest. That'll kept guys from being able to set their feet on charge calls. A floater would help too, as would more acrobatic finishes. But I don't know that those should be the priorities. I think he should've stayed on Davis most of the night. Size clearly doesn't bother AD, so tempting LAL to focus on that mismatch while hounding and swarming would've been the better strategy. Gasol was basically irrelevant in the game, so Poeltl helping off him would've been a better use of his talents.

Poe was really good in the first quarter before he got into foul trouble. He made good passes on the give-and-go and took advantage of open space on rolls. In the second half, he was less effective. I don't think he had the same aggression, and by then, the team had stopped running offense. I don't know that Jakob is playable if he's not an active part of the offense. In the very least, he'd be misused horribly if he doesn't touch the ball in positions to pass and score. This is the issue with having him start with DJM, White and DMDR. Ideally, it's this system where all four can pass and anyone can be facilitator on any given action or whatever. In practice, you'll have one of those guys dominate the ball each possession while the others half-heartedly wait for shots.

Eubanks was too in love with the long-two. Like it's great that he can hit it, but he's not dragging anyone out of the paint with that shot. His hook is usually pretty decent, so it was a shame it didn't go in. He needs to just play straight up and not worry about swiping at balls. He's not the biggest guy out there, but he can still do some damage if he sticks to verticality.

I thought DeRozan was shoot and never got back into it. I see that he was efficient or whatever, but I thought he played really tightly. He started off as the Lebron defender, but Pop didn't like what he saw and switched him with Keldon. I think that was a mistake, given that Johnson didn't stop James and DMDR was less equipped to guard Davis. I'm not expected DeRozan to shut guys down, but playing small isn't going to work if Pop isn't going to let DMDR guard guys James' size.

Gay and Mills combined for 20 points on 19 possessions. I thought Rudy was a couple of rim-outs from having a good game. He defense against Davis was about as effective as anyone else's (hence why I speculated he could start for Walker), but I think he wanted to compete too much with Lebron. Like Murray, he seemed to feel the need to step up in Aldridge's place too. He wasn't as successful as that it as DJM was, but I get it. The team needs Aldridge healthy and playing well. STers need to stop kidding themselves there. Mills was on the good side of meh. Not bad but not the spark plug he's been trying to be this season.

I think Vassell is the only one left. Unremarkable. He's not doing anything this year when the offense is structureless. He's a spot-up three-and-Der who can do things off secondary penetration and keep the ball moving. In a BG offense, that works. In the "hydra offense", it won't be as valuable. He didn't play enough to be bad, but if this is the future of the team, he'll need to develop a bit more so he can take his turn isoing against the defense.

[tbdog]

The team needs Aldridge healthy and playing well. STers need to stop kidding themselves there.

This right here.

[Dejounte]

Wow, I'm speechless how anyone can have anything negative to say about Dejounte's performance last night. You have to lean HEAVILY one way to come up with a skewed perception of how his night went. Is this how far you'll take it when a player is slowly proving you were wrong about him?
Chinook

[Dejounte]

The whole narrative would shift if this was a win (easily possible without refs interfering) than how it turned out.

STers need to stop kidding themselves when they say LMA is still an acceptable option to run the offense through. Stop ignoring the obvious decline in his game. Even Tim Duncan, 4 years from retirement, had experienced a drop off in his game. It happens.

[Dejounte]

The thing is... At least from what I've seen... DJ has good self-awareness for when he's shooting poorly or being too selfish. He attacks the basket when he's feeling it (as one should) or passes it when it's clearly not his night. I don't see DeMar or Westbrook selfishness on frequent display when he calls for his number.

[GAustex]

Hurry up Derrick
Get well
We need you!

[Dejounte]

Hurry up Derrick
Get well
We need you!

Having Derrick back would be huge.

On a scale of 0 to 10,

Murray pushes the pace to 10, while Derrick slows it down to 5.

It would keep the opposing team guessing. Dangerous weapon when you can switch up the pace just like that.

[GAustex]

White provides brains and decision making. A feel for winning basketball.
He makes his team mates better.

[Dejounte]

White provides brains and decision making. A feel for winning basketball.
He makes his team mates better.

There's no denying he doesn't. I love Derrick. He's the only guy on the team I have a jersey of.

[poopbox]

Lakers area significantly better team than the spurs so of course they won this game and outside of something crazy happening will win the next

Pop is killing Poeltl with these quck hooks when he gets 2 fouls. He was playing well, just let him play. Every single game that Ewbanks plays have the game will be a loss for us, he's terrible...

Is Luka still sick with food poisoning ? Pretty alarming he has not seen any real minutes yet...

[PhantomDashCam]

DJ being and possibly becoming a consistent offensive force was the big positive for me coming out of today’s game. This will not only open up further opportunities for his game going forward but for others too.

If we are contending for a title, maybe then a 36 year old Aldridge might be a benefit situationally to such a challenge; but we are still some ways away.

This game wasn’t lost on the offensive end of the court and LMA is not helping our defence one iota.

[daslicer]

Lakers area significantly better team than the spurs so of course they won this game and outside of something crazy happening will win the next

Pop is killing Poeltl with these quck hooks when he gets 2 fouls. He was playing well, just let him play. Every single game that Ewbanks plays have the game will be a loss for us, he's terrible...

Is Luka still sick with food poisoning ? Pretty alarming he has not seen any real minutes yet...

Agreed. Lakers are just a bad match up. Having to play them 3 times in a week is also terrible scheduling. Most likely that's 3 losses.

[Dex]

Might be over simplifying things here, but the Spurs were getting good looks but just not hitting their shots. Perfect example was when Lonnie got wide open to the basket and bonked it off the bottom of the rim. The game would have been much more competitive if they had hit the shots they normally make.

In the meantime, Wesley Matthews goes 6/6 after he had shot 0/8 from deep in his first four games.

It's hard to beat any team when they shoot 55% from deep.

[R. DeMurre]

Aldridge turns 36 this year. I've generally supported the guy while he's been in San Antonio, but what's the game plan now? He's not going to be a part of a future championship core with the young guys, so what's the point of worrrying about how he fits or how the Spurs need to utilize/showcase him? I just don't get this line of thinking. He was a very good major free agent signing, he was an integral part of a 67 win season, he might have been part of the Spurs winning a ring in '17 if Kawhi hadn't gotten hurt against the Warriors.... he's provided some some good memories... but it's time to move on.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

[QUOTE=PhantomDashCam;10385463]DJ being and possibly becoming a consistent offensive force was the big positive for me coming out of today’s game. This will not only open up further opportunities for his game going forward but for others too.

This.

[Dex]

Aldridge turns 36 this year. I've generally supported the guy while he's been in San Antonio, but what's the game plan now? He's not going to be a part of a future championship core with the young guys, so what's the point of worrrying about how he fits or how the Spurs need to utilize/showcase him? I just don't get this line of thinking. He was a very good major free agent signing, he was an integral part of a 67 win season, he might have been part of the Spurs winning a ring in '17 if Kawhi hadn't gotten hurt against the Warriors.... he's provided some some good memories... but it's time to move on.

Same, and I say that as a Longhorn fan who was super hype about the Aldridge signing. He's definitely showing signs of aging and that probably isn't going to get any better.

He could draw interest from teams looking to add a bigman for a playoff run...but he needs to stop playing like that old guy at the Y if the Spurs are going to get any reasonable return. Otherwise, I think you let him walk and take the cap space.

[Leetonidas]

Sucks but Laker ref love resulting in Poeltl being on the bench constantly and Matthews randomly going 6-6 from three was the game right there. Spurs hung tough given the situation, all we can ask for against the champs tbh

[R. DeMurre]

Sucks but Laker ref love resulting in Poeltl being on the bench constantly and Matthews randomly going 6-6 from three was the game right there. Spurs hung tough given the situation, all we can ask for against the champs tbh

Hard to blame the refs for the distribution of minutes... Poeltl played 24 minutes and had 3 fouls. Eubanks played 24 minutes and finished with 5 fouls. In the absence of Aldridge, the Spurs gave their 3rd string center too much time against the defending champs and he predictably finished with the worst +/- on either team.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

I liked that they hung in there when they could’ve gotten blown out. Too many missed lay ups and bad turnovers when we would be on a run.

the Lakers also hit some tough 3 pointers and early got tons of fouls called in their favor. I hate that we have to play the Los Angeles teams damn near in a row this early in the season.

[Chinook]

Wow, I'm speechless how anyone can have anything negative to say about Dejounte's performance last night. You have to lean HEAVILY one way to come up with a skewed perception of how his night went. Is this how far you'll take it when a player is slowly proving you were wrong about him?
Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557)

You think Murray is "proving me wrong" because you believed I thought something different about him than I did. My advocacy for trading DJM isn't because I think he's a bad player or incapable of performing. It's about the way he plays and how that's going to fit with the young players as they try to form a winning roster. He didn't play differently last night. I'd even suggest that last night was as bad as it's ever been. The difference is that he had good results. That's better than doing it and having terrible results, but it's not better than actually working in the flow of an offense.

Murray's problem has basically always been that he wants to be a star when he's a role-player. Last night, he basically did a star impression. If he did that night-in, night-out, he'd probably be a star. But the offense as a whole suffered for it. That's why I brought up the decline in assists after the first quarter. At their peak (the 2014 Finals), the Spurs had a AST:FG of .65. That's the standard they're trying to hit. So going 14:29 in the last three quarters isn't good enough. Five of Murray's 12 makes were assisted. After the first quarter, it was only three of 10. That's not a perfect representation of how much DJM called his own number because misses or FTs could've been potential assists, but the trend of the offense breaking down and of Murray going off aren't unrelated.

And again, it wasn't like he CAUSED the offense to fall apart, at least not on his own. DMDR also went from having two assisted buckets in the first quarter to only one assisted versus four unassisted for the rest of game. It wasn't like as soon as DJM left the offense came back or whatever. But all of the criticisms folks had for DeRozan, Aldridge and even Parker offensively apply here, only both the floors and ceilings for those players were higher. DJM is probably not a consistent 20ppg scorer. He started off the season last year on a tear and then fell off. That's not his game, and it's not a matter of the number of touches he gets; it's how he gets them. Offensive systems exist to get players the right amount of shots in areas they excel in. Breaking down that offense might feel "freeing" or whatever, but the ecosystem that allows role-players to flourish and balances out the worse impulses of the stars gets damaged.

I agree with Dex that the Spurs missed a ton of makeable shots. But it wasn't like LAL gave the Spurs their best punch and SA took it. They were fighting a talent disadvantage and a match-up disadvantage. They need scheme and cohesion to overcome that. They lost that after the first quarter last night, and Murray making the shots he took doesn't change that.

[cjw]

Lakers area significantly better team than the spurs so of course they won this game and outside of something crazy happening will win the next

Pop is killing Poeltl with these quck hooks when he gets 2 fouls. He was playing well, just let him play. Every single game that Ewbanks plays have the game will be a loss for us, he's terrible...

Is Luka still sick with food poisoning ? Pretty alarming he has not seen any real minutes yet...

Agree on the quick hook if you have Aldridge and Eubanks dressing. But when Aldridge is out, you cannot risk Poeltl getting a third / fourth early. You don’t want to have to play Eubanks for an entire quarter.

Luka might as well not exist. Bad that a guy picked behind him last year and a guy picked this year are firmly in the rotation and he’s nowhere to be found. Many of us hated the pick then, and it looks like a miss. I want to eat crow. Just don’t see it happening.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/DanWeissPBP/status/1344695592694517760?s=19

[Chinook]

Yeah, no. James didn't feel Johnson at all. Siakam and Williamson I thought were played well by Johnson. James, no.

[John B]

There's no denying he doesn't. I love Derrick. He's the only guy on the team I have a jersey of.
I’m sure you’ll be buying Walker IV, Johnson, Murray soon.

[John B]

https://twitter.com/DanWeissPBP/status/1344695592694517760?s=19
Any comparison to Kawhi at that time? Keldon is really becoming Spurs ball stopper. I think he is better than Kawhi on their 2nd year especially on offense. And with Aldridge slowing down, he has to pickup the rebounding

[bluebellmaniac]

You think Murray is "proving me wrong" because you believed I thought something different about him than I did. My advocacy for trading DJM isn't because I think he's a bad player or incapable of performing. It's about the way he plays and how that's going to fit with the young players as they try to form a winning roster. He didn't play differently last night. I'd even suggest that last night was as bad as it's ever been. The difference is that he had good results. That's better than doing it and having terrible results, but it's not better than actually working in the flow of an offense.

Murray's problem has basically always been that he wants to be a star when he's a role-player. Last night, he basically did a star impression. If he did that night-in, night-out, he'd probably be a star. But the offense as a whole suffered for it. That's why I brought up the decline in assists after the first quarter. At their peak (the 2014 Finals), the Spurs had a AST:FG of .65. That's the standard they're trying to hit. So going 14:29 in the last three quarters isn't good enough. Five of Murray's 12 makes were assisted. After the first quarter, it was only three of 10. That's not a perfect representation of how much DJM called his own number because misses or FTs could've been potential assists, but the trend of the offense breaking down and of Murray going off aren't unrelated.

And again, it wasn't like he CAUSED the offense to fall apart, at least not on his own. DMDR also went from having two assisted buckets in the first quarter to only one assisted versus four unassisted for the rest of game. It wasn't like as soon as DJM left the offense came back or whatever. But all of the criticisms folks had for DeRozan, Aldridge and even Parker offensively apply here, only both the floors and ceilings for those players were higher. DJM is probably not a consistent 20ppg scorer. He started off the season last year on a tear and then fell off. That's not his game, and it's not a matter of the number of touches he gets; it's how he gets them. Offensive systems exist to get players the right amount of shots in areas they excel in. Breaking down that offense might feel "freeing" or whatever, but the ecosystem that allows role-players to flourish and balances out the worse impulses of the stars gets damaged.

I agree with Dex that the Spurs missed a ton of makeable shots. But it wasn't like LAL gave the Spurs their best punch and SA took it. They were fighting a talent disadvantage and a match-up disadvantage. They need scheme and cohesion to overcome that. They lost that after the first quarter last night, and Murray making the shots he took doesn't change that.

Chinook is right. If we are going to win, irs from playing the beautiful game, not hero ball. Individuals may end up with a great start line playing hero ball (ala Westbrook), but how many titles do hero ball players have? Westbrook? 0.

Great start line, but either get in line with what we are trying to do, or be trade bait for draft considerations next year.

[r0drig0lac]

Chinook is right. If we are going to win, irs from playing the beautiful game, not hero ball. Individuals may end up with a great start line playing hero ball (ala Westbrook), but how many titles do hero ball players have? Westbrook? 0.

Great start line, but either get in line with what we are trying to do, or be trade bait for draft considerations next year.who said? Spurs had three years of this type of game and won only once, to believe that it is replicable is just faith, to believe that it is replicable with current human material is just delusional.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/kramsta1/status/1344541206357954561?s=19

[Chinook]

who said? Spurs had three years of this type of game and won only once, to believe that it is replicable is just faith, to believe that it is replicable with current human material is just delusional.

Eh, I mean, they barely lost in the Finals and made the WCF in those other years, neither of which were the apotheosis of the style. Regardless, the reason why it's the best path for the team is the lack of star power. They have to be more than the sum of their parts, and they can't do that if they're iso-heavy. The hive-mind fugue the team got in may not be replicable. But the culture of looking for the better shot is not something that you need to be ubertalented to pull off. The team did a really good job in the first quarter -- particularly before Poeltl went out. That needs to be the goal, not having success taking turns dominating the ball.

[r0drig0lac]

Eh, I mean, they barely lost in the Finals and made the WCF in those other years, neither of which were the apotheosis of the style. Regardless, the reason why it's the best path for the team is the lack of star power. They have to be more than the sum of their parts, and they can't do that if they're iso-heavy. The hive-mind fugue the team got in may not be replicable. But the culture of looking for the better shot is not something that you need to be ubertalented to pull off. The team did a really good job in the first quarter -- particularly before Poeltl went out. That needs to be the goal, not having success taking turns dominating the ball.
agree although the goal of the front office should be to get the real stars (real impact) in some way.

[The Truth #6]

I agree with Chinook to a degree, but I think it is a good thing that Dejounte is playing his game better. Honestly, I didn’t think he had the skill to be doing as well as he is at finishing and shooting. To me that’s an objective positive, but in the context of this team I see how it can lead to challenges. But if White controls the ball more, then Dejounte’s improved offense can be a good thing.

[The Truth #6]

Otherwise, I thought it was a weird game with the Lakers shooting the lights out. The Spurs did not quit and I took that as a positive, especially for a young team. If anything, I liked last nights game in the big picture because I think the players will learn from it. The young players that is, especially IV and Keldon.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

The goal is to win, regardless of playing beautiful game or not. When the other team's defense scheme is to let our star to beat them, there is not much passing necessary. If Duncan, Leonard, Manu or Parker is with us again, Pop will tell them to go ahead score 20 points in a row all by himself. When the other team starts to double, then the beautiful game starts.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

The goal is to win, regardless of playing beautiful game or not. When the other team's defense scheme is to let our star to beat them, there is not much passing necessary. If Duncan, Leonard, Manu or Parker is with us again,  Pop will tell them to go ahead score 20 points in a row all by himself. When the other team starts to double, then the beautiful game starts.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

The goal is to win, regardless of playing beautiful game or not. When the other team's defense scheme is to let our star to beat them, there is not much passing necessary. If Duncan, Leonard, Manu or Parker is with us again,  Pop will tell them to go ahead score 20 points in a row all by himself. When the other team starts to double, then the beautiful game starts.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

The goal is to win, regardless of playing beautiful game or not. When the other team's defense scheme is to let our star to beat them, there is not much passing necessary. If Duncan, Leonard, Manu or Parker is with us again,  Pop will tell them to go ahead score 20 points in a row all by himself. When the other team starts to double, then the beautiful game starts.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Sorry for posting 4 times above. Each time I try to edit, it saved the previous post.

[Fusternino]

Just a game highlighting our entire front court rotation outside of Poeltl is a dumpster fire that's falling off a bridge.

[timvp]

So many folks want the "Beautiful Game" offense and have no problem running Aldridge out of town because of it, but they don't seem to understand that it's that tendency to call your own number when you don't have an obvious advantage and to not go from good to great because you think you have it that undermines that whole style.

Interesting writeup, thanks :tu

I agree that those who want to run Aldridge out of town to "fix" the offense don't make any sense. The team's offensive ceiling is much higher with him than without him.

That said, I disagree with criticizing Murray's play by judging it by "Beautiful Game" standards. That's just not fair. The BG only worked because you had the greatest teammate in NBA history (Duncan), a point guard with genius level basketball IQ (Parker), another guard with impeccable basketball instincts (Ginobili), multiple elite passing bigs (Diaw, Splitter) and elite role players who were unselfish (Green, Leonard, Mills). Other teams have tried to replicate the BG, with the Warriors getting the closest ... but even the Durant Warriors resorted to iso ball when the chips were down. Judging the 2020-21 Spurs by using "Beautiful Game" as the standard is like judging a kindergartener's finger painting by how it compares to van Gogh.

Murray's game is never going to be aesthetically-pleasing. He doesn't have a natural playmaking feel for the game; even when he makes good passes, it's rarely a result of him being able to read and react to what the defense is doing. Parker and Ginobili, for example, would often be a step or two ahead of the defense, so they could routinely make passes to teammates before they were even open just by understanding how the defense is rotating, etc. Murray is a oh-shiiii-he's-open-I-better-zip-it-in-there-before-anyone-notices type passer.

Going forward, it's safe to say "Beautiful Game" won't return no matter what the Spurs do or who is running the show. I've erased that standard from the equation. Now the Spurs are like every other team in that they need offensive weapons who draw attention and then use that attention to create space for shooters. So far, Murray is showing signs that he could be such a weapon. That's good -- and it's a step in the right direction. It's not going to be pretty ... but nothing will be pretty when judged against our memories of what was.

[Dejounte]

^even Patty has indicated this isn't the BG anymore but something different, so not sure why that's the "standard"

[Seventyniner]

That said, I disagree with criticizing Murray's play by judging it by "Beautiful Game" standards. That's just not fair. The BG only worked because you had the greatest teammate in NBA history (Duncan), a point guard with genius level basketball IQ (Parker), another guard with impeccable basketball instincts (Ginobili), multiple elite passing bigs (Diaw, Splitter) and elite role players who were unselfish (Green, Leonard, Mills). Other teams have tried to replicate the BG, with the Warriors getting the closest ... but even the Durant Warriors resorted to iso ball when the chips were down. Judging the 2020-21 Spurs by using "Beautiful Game" as the standard is like judging a kindergartener's finger painting by how it compares to van Gogh.

I see what you did there.

[Chinook]

Interesting writeup, thanks :tu

I agree that those who want to run Aldridge out of town to "fix" the offense don't make any sense. The team's offensive ceiling is much higher with him than without him.

That said, I disagree with criticizing Murray's play by judging it by "Beautiful Game" standards. That's just not fair. The BG only worked because you had the greatest teammate in NBA history (Duncan), a point guard with genius level basketball IQ (Parker), another guard with impeccable basketball instincts (Ginobili), multiple elite passing bigs (Diaw, Splitter) and elite role players who were unselfish (Green, Leonard, Mills). Other teams have tried to replicate the BG, with the Warriors getting the closest ... but even the Durant Warriors resorted to iso ball when the chips were down. Judging the 2020-21 Spurs by using "Beautiful Game" as the standard is like judging a kindergartener's finger painting by how it compares to van Gogh.

Murray's game is never going to be aesthetically-pleasing. He doesn't have a natural playmaking feel for the game; even when he makes good passes, it's rarely a result of him being able to read and react to what the defense is doing. Parker and Ginobili, for example, would often be a step or two ahead of the defense, so they could routinely make passes to teammates before they were even open just by understanding how the defense is rotating, etc. Murray is a oh-shiiii-he's-open-I-better-zip-it-in-there-before-anyone-notices type passer.

Going forward, it's safe to say "Beautiful Game" won't return no matter what the Spurs do or who is running the show. I've erased that standard from the equation. Now the Spurs are like every other team in that they need offensive weapons who draw attention and then use that attention to create space for shooters. So far, Murray is showing signs that he could be such a weapon. That's good -- and it's a step in the right direction. It's not going to be pretty ... but nothing will be pretty when judged against our memories of what was.

Liked, if only for that description of Murray's passing.

To me, it's not about aesthetics; it's about efficiency. I don't believe the team is good enough to win games without assisted buckets. With a healthy Aldridge, the team showed they can still compete by leveraging his scoring ability combined with a good defense to beat non-elite clubs. I don't see Murray as being able to do that, but if he's a 20ppg scorer now on decent efficiency, it's not the worst idea to let him try. But then it becomes that much more important that the rest of the possessions be structured. Some posters talked about the bubble offense with its four-headed driving attack as something the team needed to focus on. Pop himself might agree there. I don't agree with that, though. It only worked because White and Johnson shot crazy well from three.

Basically any offense needs to use difficult shots made by stars to generate efficient shots by role-players. That's even true of the MDA Rockets with Harden. The Spurs can't strip out those efficient role-player shots in favor of just the hard shots, and usually, Murray's not the kind of guy who's going to bend defenses and make the guys around him better. DeRozan is that guy when his head is in the game. Walker showed flashes of being that guy but still doesn't have the mentality or trust in himself to do it. Aldridge is kind of that guy, but he doesn't pass well enough to really take advantage of it.

That's why the system needs to do it. Pop needs to call plays to leverage the talent he does have by putting guys in positions the defense doesn't like and then creating good outlets. He needs to run sets with good options and make sure guys stick to those sets. Sure, if you have a lane, take it. If you're wide open, don't worry about the play -- just shoot it. But if you're bringing the ball up the floor and you're like "My guy is on me, but I'm hot, so screw this play," it's usually bad. Murray converted a lot of those plays last night. I'm glad that he did, but I'm not looking to that as a sign the Spurs are figuring things out offensively. There's a big gap between van Gogh and finger painting. You can't justify the later by saying it'll never be the former. That's even more true if you were already painting decently and then decided "Screw it, Ima just stick my fingers in there."

[Dejounte]

Alright, I'm home now... where do I start?

Murray setting up plays like a traditional point guard takes 14+ seconds off the clock.

In today's NBA, the opposing team scores in fewer seconds than that, probably eight seconds. (these are just estimates)

The effort and ease of setting up plays today is not worth the 6+ extra seconds to score. The momentum swings in today's NBA are major. Each time the opposing team goes back their way and scores in 8 seconds or less, it's back breaking for the other team because it adds up.

Let's do some math:

48 minutes in a game * 60 seconds = 2,880 seconds

2,880 / (14 seconds to score x 2.5 points) = 82 points

versus

2,880 / (8 seconds to score x 2.5 points) = 144 points

How overstated is it that Murray is playing an ugly brand of basketball?

[Dejounte]

Yeah, no. James didn't feel Johnson at all. Siakam and Williamson I thought were played well by Johnson. James, no.

It was five possessions. That's not enough to draw a conclusion either way.

[MannyIsGod]

I think it should be considered fact that making Murray the center of the offense with iso ball is a bad idea. I don't think you want to try to rely on Murray getting 20+ ppg as a way of winning games. So if that's what Chinook's main point is then I don't disagree with that one bit. I don't think last night indicates the Spurs are going to head in that direction. Murray has a weird skill set. I'm not sure what to expect him to be in the long run anymore, but I do know that so far this season he's been able to get better. Scoring a career high is a positive regardless of how we look at it, because it came against a team that is an incredibly bad matchup for the Spurs and is way more talented. In a developmental year, you take what you can from last night and Murray showing signs of his obvious growth is good enough for me at this juncture.

In the last two games the Spurs have lost but I've been pretty satisfied with elements from both. I guess that shows what I'm looking for this season.

[Dejounte]

https://i.imgur.com/jCm3dNt.gif

https://i.imgur.com/uZjT3Tu.gif


Here's two of those five possessions. Keldon not being backed down is impressive. I have seen others abused by LeBron when he posts up like this.

[phxspurfan]

Any comparison to Kawhi at that time? Keldon is really becoming Spurs ball stopper. I think he is better than Kawhi on their 2nd year especially on offense. And with Aldridge slowing down, he has to pickup the rebounding

He's Pop's Centerpiece

[bluebellmaniac]

Liked, if only for that description of Murray's passing.

To me, it's not about aesthetics; it's about efficiency. I don't believe the team is good enough to win games without assisted buckets. With a healthy Aldridge, the team showed they can still compete by leveraging his scoring ability combined with a good defense to beat non-elite clubs. I don't see Murray as being able to do that, but if he's a 20ppg scorer now on decent efficiency, it's not the worst idea to let him try. But then it becomes that much more important that the rest of the possessions be structured. Some posters talked about the bubble offense with its four-headed driving attack as something the team needed to focus on. Pop himself might agree there. I don't agree with that, though. It only worked because White and Johnson shot crazy well from three.

Basically any offense needs to use difficult shots made by stars to generate efficient shots by role-players. That's even true of the MDA Rockets with Harden. The Spurs can't strip out those efficient role-player shots in favor of just the hard shots, and usually, Murray's not the kind of guy who's going to bend defenses and make the guys around him better. DeRozan is that guy when his head is in the game. Walker showed flashes of being that guy but still doesn't have the mentality or trust in himself to do it. Aldridge is kind of that guy, but he doesn't pass well enough to really take advantage of it.

That's why the system needs to do it. Pop needs to call plays to leverage the talent he does have by putting guys in positions the defense doesn't like and then creating good outlets. He needs to run sets with good options and make sure guys stick to those sets. Sure, if you have a lane, take it. If you're wide open, don't worry about the play -- just shoot it. But if you're bringing the ball up the floor and you're like "My guy is on me, but I'm hot, so screw this play," it's usually bad. Murray converted a lot of those plays last night. I'm glad that he did, but I'm not looking to that as a sign the Spurs are figuring things out offensively. There's a big gap between van Gogh and finger painting. You can't justify the later by saying it'll never be the former. That's even more true if you were already painting decently and then decided "Screw it, Ima just stick my fingers in there."

And that's also why we're a better team when DMDR is facilitating. Spread it around and the whole team becomes a hard to beat beast.

[DAF86]

The team needs Aldridge healthy and playing well. STers need to stop kidding themselves there.

You are telling me a team needs it's second best paid player to be available and play well? What a novel concept, tbh. Too bad that, on this case, the player is in clear decline and, even on his prime, his game had a clear 2nd fiddle type ceiling that wasn't very conductive to real contention.

Anyone thinking that the Spurs need to do anything other than shopping Aldridge the fuck out needs to stop kidding himself, tbh.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1344753478237908994

Wait... so the perimeter was guarded well and the Lakers just took advantage of their open 3's very well?

[Rummpd]

Nothing to see here except a incredibly badly run small market team with an over the hill HOF coach got hammered by a big market one. This FO has botched everything last few years so expect it to be a terrible season.

[Rummpd]

You are telling me a team needs it's second best paid player to be available and play well? What a novel concept, tbh. Too bad that, on this case, the player is in clear decline and, even on his prime, his game had a clear 2nd fiddle type ceiling that wasn't very conductive to real contention.

Anyone thinking that the Spurs need to do anything other than shopping Aldridge the fuck out needs to stop kidding himself, tbh.

Truth and don’t stop there

[daslicer]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1344753478237908994

Wait... so the perimeter was guarded well and the Lakers just took advantage of their open 3's very well?

The 3 point shot is very hard to guard so this is impressive considering teams will always get a good amount of open 3's during a game due to ball movement and spacing under the current rules.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/mikefinger/status/1344722688158425091

https://twitter.com/tom_orsborn/status/1344729832819666944

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1344721782947926022

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1344720539273883648

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1344713926483832832

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1344708342162272257

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1344707901370335237

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1344707695232876545

https://twitter.com/tom_orsborn/status/1344707051432386561

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1344705609158029317

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1344704888631078914

^But Lonnie, ST says Pop has hindered your development!

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1344704585051607040

[TD 21]

I mostly agree with Chinook's sentiment, but where's the vitriol that would have inevitably followed had I said it? :wow

[dbestpro]

I would like to see a mobile big on the Spurs. Someone with a high motor. The wings are mobile and can fly around but hesitate because the bigs are flat footed and are unable to rotate.

[Chinook]

Murray setting up plays like a traditional point guard takes 14+ seconds off the clock.

This is not how basketball works. One possession usually contains multiple plays if the previous ones don't end up leading to a shot.

The rest of what you said has some flaws. The biggest one is that possessions don't exist in a vacuum. Every game is made from both teams combined for 48 minutes of possessions. Scoring fast doesn't automatically mean you get the ball more than the other team. If you take eight seconds and they take 16, that leads to (roughly) 30 possessions each every quarter. In a game like football, TOP matters because the defense will get tired if they play a lot more. With players playing both ends anyway in basketball, that's not a concern. Scoring quickly is supposed to a) lead to better shots against not set defenses and b) trick the opposing team into scoring faster as well, raising the pace. The old Spurs used to be masters at just playing their game anyway and using their defense to drive down opposing efficiency. Not asking this team to do that. But not passing is not going to be some modern tech on the old formula. Analytics agree that passing is good.

[Dejounte]

I would like to see a mobile big on the Spurs. Someone with a high motor. The wings are mobile and can fly around but hesitate because the bigs are flat footed and are unable to rotate.

Unfortunately, I don't see many great candidates except in next year's draft.

[Chinook]

You are telling me a team needs it's second best paid player to be available and play well? What a novel concept, tbh. Too bad that, on this case, the player is in clear decline and, even on his prime, his game had a clear 2nd fiddle type ceiling that wasn't very conductive to real contention.

Anyone thinking that the Spurs need to do anything other than shopping Aldridge the fuck out needs to stop kidding himself, tbh.

You contorted yourself into incoherence in an attempt to go for a jab. Being paid more isn't important. If the team was actually better without Aldridge, then him being out wouldn't matter. The Warriors' problem isn't that Wiggins isn't playing well.

Anyway, acting like the Spurs should be concerned about winning a title any time soon is absurd. This is a developmental year, hopefully one that ends up with a playoff run and some good experience. That's why I don't care about the loss or think them almost winning is the biggest takeaway. I care about HOW they are doing it. Murray going off for a game is fine, fun even. But the Spurs long-term need to avoid that kind of offense and build a culture that passes and communicates on both ends. Murray not doing that has been his problem his whole career. Managing to score well doesn't change that.

[Dejounte]

This is not how basketball works. One possession usually contains multiple plays if the previous ones don't end up leading to a shot.

The rest of what you said has some flaws. The biggest one is that possessions don't exist in a vacuum. Every game is made from both teams combined for 48 minutes of possessions. Scoring fast doesn't automatically mean you get the ball more than the other team. If you take eight seconds and they take 16, that leads to (roughly) 30 possessions each every quarter. In a game like football, TOP matters because the defense will get tired if they play a lot more. With players playing both ends anyway in basketball, that's not a concern. Scoring quickly is supposed to a) lead to better shots against not set defenses and b) trick the opposing team into scoring faster as well, raising the pace. The old Spurs used to be masters at just playing their game anyway and using their defense to drive down opposing efficiency. Not asking this team to do that. But not passing is not going to be some modern tech on the old formula. Analytics agree that passing is good.

Yeah, I wasn't attempting to break down the game in an in-depth way. Just trying to raise my point of how much more dangerous quick possessions are compared to slow set ones. Anyways, I just disagree that Murray is playing a blackhole type offense so far. We probably need more sample size to prove it. 10 more games later, then we can come back and discuss this.

[Dejounte]

You contorted yourself into incoherence in an attempt to go for a jab. Being paid more isn't important. If the team was actually better without Aldridge, then him being out wouldn't matter. The Warriors' problem isn't that Wiggins isn't playing well.

Anyway, acting like the Spurs should be concerned about winning a title any time soon is absurd. This is a developmental year, hopefully one that ends up with a playoff run and some good experience. That's why I don't care about the loss or think them almost winning is the biggest takeaway. I care about HOW they are doing it. Murray going off for a game is fine, fun even. But the Spurs long-term need to avoid that kind of offense and build a culture that passes and communicates on both ends. Murray not doing that has been his problem his whole career. Managing to score well doesn't change that.

I pretty much agree with all this. The only thing is I don't think we've seen the full potential of what they're trying to do yet because the other main players (Lonnie and Keldon) haven't played up to what we know they're capable of playing. Lonnie has shown flashes and actually is showing a bit of consistency doing it. I think game 4 against the Lakers is his best yet. There was a period where it was "Lonnie Time" and I think throwing different weapons like that against the other team will lead to positive results.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1344769636970213376

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1344770126042836993

[R. DeMurre]

You contorted yourself into incoherence in an attempt to go for a jab. Being paid more isn't important. If the team was actually better without Aldridge, then him being out wouldn't matter. The Warriors' problem isn't that Wiggins isn't playing well.

Anyway, acting like the Spurs should be concerned about winning a title any time soon is absurd.

Using your logic-- that the Spurs aren't winning a title any time soon-- wouldn't that mean you agree with DAF86, that the Spurs should be focused on shopping Aldridge? Do you think a 37 or 38 year old Aldridge will help them in any way? Or do think letting expire and using that freed up space is a better alternative?

For the record, I don't agree that it's necessarily absurd to think the Spurs could contend in 2022, if they draft well and sign or trade for a top 15 player in the 2021 offseason.

[Chinook]

Using your logic-- that the Spurs aren't winning a title any time soon-- wouldn't that mean you agree with DAF86, that the Spurs should be focused on shopping Aldridge?

No. DAF wanted to say LMA isn't helping the team on the court, but he also wanted to get a dig in by saying that "You mean that the team needs good players to play well? Duh." But those two things are contradictory, so he had to talk about salary instead. Then he tried to cover his tracks by talking about how even when he plays well, Aldridge can't lead a team to a title. My point to that was that the Spurs shouldn't worry that Aldridge can't win a title, since they aren't in a place to do that anyway.


Do you think a 38 year old Aldridge will help them in any way?

Yes. I do think the Spurs playing the best they can with their current roster is good for the young guys. They aren't all (or maybe even any of them) going to be stars. Learning how to be a role-player is really helpful for a young guy's development. Even if DMDR and LMA aren't title-worthy stars, they are good enough to structure a team around and get guys like Walker, Vassell and Johnson to develop three-and-D chops. It also helps that those two are expiring and old enough to where the young guys still get opportunities to do more on offense than just wait for them to do something. It gives a good balance similar to the medium three era, but without the title-winning ceiling.


Or do think letting expire and using that freed up space is a better alternative?

Eh, like I think it's an okay enough outcome to where SA shouldn't be afraid to let it happen. I'm okay with moving Aldridge in a good deal. Like if the team liked Wiseman so much, then taking on Wiggins to get him using Aldridge would've been worth it. And if LMA wants to leave and the other team isn't trying to hold SA over a barrel then I'm more than happy to do a trade. But if the goal is to good on the court, then getting LMA back healthy and engaged is critical. Folks thinking they're better without him are kidding themselves.


For the record, I don't agree that it's necessarily absurd to think the Spurs could contend in 2022, if they draft well and sign or trade for top player in 2021.

Folks won't want to hear it, but the best chance the Spurs have to contend is to sign a superstar this summer (and as far as I know, there's just one on the market), have White develop into a lesser star and trade whatever else for that third piece. I agree it's possible. But I don't see it as anything like likely now. I'm perfectly fine with them drafting a big wing next summer and maxing out Colilns. I think that's a good but not great team, and maybe they'll find a title window opening up randomly from that.

[R. DeMurre]

Folks won't want to hear it, but the best chance the Spurs have to contend is to sign a superstar this summer (and as far as I know, there's just one on the market), have White develop into a lesser star and trade whatever else for that third piece. I agree it's possible. But I don't see it as anything like likely now. I'm perfectly fine with them drafting a big wing next summer and maxing out Collins. I think that's a good but not great team, and maybe they'll find a title window opening up randomly from that.

Are you referring to Kawhi as the one superstar available?

Collins isn't my first choice either (or my second or third), but I think his max price is comparatively low and he'd be easy to trade if he didn't fit at all. I'm still holding out for an outlier to have a breakout year & be the surprise FA of 2021... Harry Giles? Isaiah Hartenstein, Isaac Bonga? Or my favorite daydream of a 2021 DDR sign & trade return to Toronto bringing back Chris Boucher...

[Chinook]

Are you referring to Kawhi as the one superstar available?

Collins isn't my first choice either (or my second or third), but I think his max price is comparatively low and he'd be easy to trade if he didn't fit at all. I'm still holding out for an outlier to have a breakout year & be the surprise FA of 2021... Harry Giles? Isaiah Hartenstein, Isaac Bonga? Or my favorite daydream of a 2021 DDR sign & trade return to Toronto bringing back Chris Boucher...

I'm not a fan of signing a one-year wonder to a big deal. If we're talking Wood money, that's one thing. That won't hamper the team too badly. But I don't see there being another max player, with Boucher and those other guys definitely not being that. The good news is that the Spurs should be flexible enough to where they can afford any free agent who wants to sign with them.

[R. DeMurre]

I'm not a fan of signing a one-year wonder to a big deal. If we're talking Wood money, that's one thing. That won't hamper the team too badly. But I don't see there being another max player, with Boucher and those other guys definitely not being that. The good news is that the Spurs should be flexible enough to where they can afford any free agent who wants to sign with them.

Yeah, agreed. Woodlike breakout year, Woodlike money-- that's what I meant.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/bouncepassos/status/1344684204370628615?s=19

[Slippy]

DJ being and possibly becoming a consistent offensive force was the big positive for me coming out of today’s game. This will not only open up further opportunities for his game going forward but for others too.

If we are contending for a title, maybe then a 36 year old Aldridge might be a benefit situationally to such a challenge; but we are still some ways away.

This game wasn’t lost on the offensive end of the court and LMA is not helping our defence one iota.

So you're saying a big body not fouling out or in foul trouble while tiring Davis on the other end, not affecting spacing.. spurs could do without that kind of big?

Dont think you undetstand the game or players one iota. Ffs

[PhantomDashCam]

So you're saying a big body not fouling out or in foul trouble while tiring Davis on the other end, not affecting spacing.. spurs could do without that kind of big?

Dont think you undetstand the game or players one iota. Ffs


Love posts like this. You think Aldridge is tiring out other players shooting 25 ft out from the basket, unable to hedge or contain guards in the P'nR, and shooting mid range blanks that lead to fast breaks down the other end, that's tiring teams out?
This isn't 2016 Aldridge bud.

Born Slippy...now just slipped

[Chinook]

The fact that people keep acting like Aldridge WANTS to shoot threes is annoying. What's more annoying is knowing that the microsecond he moves back inside, he's going to be getting shit for not shooting threes.

[rankingtear]

Atleast the argument for Murray now is if he is an effective initiator. Just 2 months ago it's he can't dribble , he can't shoot , he can't pass, he can't defend, not a basketball player etc... Murray still not the ideal player to run your offense through but as timvp said he is developing into an offensive weapon. Don't forget that Murray is an all defense guard first, an above average offense is borderline all star for him.

[Slippy]

Love posts like this. You think Aldridge is tiring out other players shooting 25 ft out from the basket, unable to hedge or contain guards in the P'nR, and shooting mid range blanks that lead to fast breaks down the other end, that's tiring teams out?
This isn't 2016 Aldridge bud.

Born Slippy...now just slipped
You just proved you havny seen aldridge at all when on the spurs... he regularly outplays AD. It ain't from Shooting threes and the team fed of that with wins. Your point was he wouldnt have made any difference. You couldnt have been more wrong. Going up against the lakers who start 2 centers and Jacob with the usual foul trouble.

Some of you have taken the hate on LA to another level this season. It can be blinding, feels like some are on a mission. LAs focus on shooting threes is by design. It cnat be that hard to understand

[PhantomDashCam]

The fact that people keep acting like Aldridge WANTS to shoot threes is annoying. What's more annoying is knowing that the microsecond he moves back inside, he's going to be getting shit for not shooting threes.

Look, I'm not implying this, so if is this for other posters, I'll let them respond.

Aldridge is learning to play a new style of basketball (based on his career achievements, propensity for mid range Js, post play etc.), that ideally benefits the team's future aspirations and core development; and for that he should be applauded.

My issues extend with Aldridge coming into camp out of shape, requiring a high volume of usage to be effective (and that he appears to be very much a rhythm type of player), whose output defensively is dictated by how he's scoring/shooting the ball.

DJ cops a lot of grief for short circuiting the offense at times, going one on one etc. but I can't denounce the effort and intent to generate opportunities, recover scoreless possessions etc.

LMA, this season, has seemingly looked over matched and out classed by mid tier centers on the defensive end, not to mention offer enough help for the guards/wings as the one true "big" in the starting 5. For my money, he hasn't given the requisite effort/s necessary to mitigate his shortcomings as a Starter for a potential playoff team.

[PhantomDashCam]

You just proved you havny seen aldridge at all when on the spurs... he regularly outplays AD. It ain't from Shooting threes and the team fed of that with wins. Your point was he wouldnt have made any difference. You couldnt have been more wrong. Going up against the lakers who start 2 centers and Jacob with the usual foul trouble.

Some of you have taken the hate on LA to another level this season. It can be blinding, feels like some are on a mission. LAs focus on shooting threes is by design. It cnat be that hard to understand

Spurs, to my knowledge, played the Lakers 3 times last season...and lost every single time.
Aldridge had a 30 point game and scored in single digits, both other games.

Yes, Aldridge has troubled Davis in the past but that's my point, this isn't past Aldridge and it wasn't last year for 2 of the 3 losses.
It also isn't the same Davis, same team etc. and the variables go on and on....

Let's agree to disagree on this.

[Slippy]

No your point was Aldridge wouldnt have made an ioata of difference. You are wrong.

Now its Aldridge the same as last season? Well offcoursre not.. he's a year older at the tail end of his career.. Conditioning takes longer and you aknowledge he starts slow.. but no fuk that you writing him off a few games into the season. Mission accomplished

[poopbox]

The fact that people keep acting like Aldridge WANTS to shoot threes is annoying. What's more annoying is knowing that the microsecond he moves back inside, he's going to be getting shit for not shooting threes.

Even more annoying is that he is to stupid and lazy as an nba player to learn how to shoot a few 3's and post up a little bit, and posters like you don't seem to understand that.

You shouldn't have to chose between "I shoot 3's" and "I post up"...are you open for a 3...you should shoot it...did you set a screen and now have a guard on your hip...you should back him down and call for the ball...or maybe you should try to move around some...there are some possessions where once LMA crosses halfcourt he doesn't take 10 steps in the whole possession

But like I said before the season started...watch this dumbass stop posting up at all and shoot nothing but long 2's and 3's because "i need to shoot 3's" and thats exactly what he's doing...

Truly one of the dumbest players I have ever seen play basketball...

[Chinook]

Even more annoying is that he is to stupid and lazy as an nba player to learn how to shoot a few 3's and post up a little bit, and posters like you don't seem to understand that.

You shouldn't have to chose between "I shoot 3's" and "I post up"...are you open for a 3...you should shoot it...did you set a screen and now have a guard on your hip...you should back him down and call for the ball...or maybe you should try to move around some...there are some possessions where once LMA crosses halfcourt he doesn't take 10 steps in the whole possession

But like I said before the season started...watch this dumbass stop posting up at all and shoot nothing but long 2's and 3's because "i need to shoot 3's" and thats exactly what he's doing...

Truly one of the dumbest players I have ever seen play basketball...

Aldridge can't just post up on his own. When he comes out to set the screen and the guard passes the ball back, what do you want him to do? Posting up is a play just like a PnP is. They don't exist at the same time. You're not going to be right when you blame him for taking the shots he's getting. We all know what shots he WANTS to take -- he's been in the league 15 years. So if LMA had his druthers, he'd be in the post more. But irrational haters like you constantly bitched about him being there. He's in a no-win situation with you guys, and it really undercuts your point that you don't seem to understand how offense work. When you blame him for things that are obviously not his fault, it makes complaints about things that are his fault weaker. Out of shape? Sure. Soft on D? Yeah. Only shooting threes or not rolling? Nope.

[poopbox]

Aldridge can't just post up on his own. When he comes out to set the screen and the guard passes the ball back, what do you want him to do? Posting up is a play just like a PnP is. They don't exist at the same time. You're not going to be right when you blame him for taking the shots he's getting. We all know what shots he WANTS to take -- he's been in the league 15 years. So if LMA had his druthers, he'd be in the post more. But irrational haters like you constantly bitched about him being there. He's in a no-win situation with you guys, and it really undercuts your point that you don't seem to understand how offense work. When you blame him for things that are obviously not his fault, it makes complaints about things that are his fault weaker. Out of shape? Sure. Soft on D? Yeah. Only shooting threes or not rolling? Nope.

Only shooting 3's is somebody else fault ? LMA is not in control of him setting one screen and stepping back and standing there ? Who is the person that is controlling this that is not LMA and how are they controlling it ? Where is the play that Pop is drawing up that says LMA set one screen take one step back and stand there ?

Rolling to the rim is not LMA fault ? LMA is not in control of setting a screen and then just running to the front of the rim ? Who is the person that is controlling this that is not LMA and how are they controlling it ? Where is the play that says now LMA no matter what do not go onto the block and post up ?

And it's never been about the fact that LMA post up, it's the fact that the spurs as a team do not get anything out of a LMA post up because he is such a bad passer. It does not generate open 3's, seeing as how the spurs starting lineup the last two years is toward the bottom at 3 point attempts...It doesn't help the pace of the game, seeing as how the spurs starting lineup the last two years played at a slower pace than league average, it doesn't help ball movement since LMA just stands in a spot waiting for the ball and then everyone else is just standing around him doing nothing because it's not like he is going to make a good pass. Then to make matters worse, LMA isn't smart enough to understand how to get post up's in the flow of the offense. He doesn't understand where to be on the floor for an easy dump off pass for a layup, or doesn't understand how to cut to the rim for an easy dunk, or really understand anything about basketball beyond what he does with the ball in his hand. Every since he has been here either he is playing great and the rest of the team is not, or he is playing like trash but the rest of the team is playing great.

Irrational hater ? There is something irrational about not wanting to watch a big man who can only score from 3 spots on the floor, pouts when he can't play basketball his way, is such a horrific passer that we had to abandon damn near our entire playbook, gives so so effort on defense, and the end result of all of this is fighting for an 8th seed ? I would think it would be irrational to actually want to see this type of basketball and have it lead to the type of results we are getting.

I don't know anything about offense ? I said LMA would abandon posting up before the season started. He did. I said Dejounte would be better this year because his problem is that he was playing with one dimensional shooters who weren't helping him on offense. So far so good, he has been much better now that forbes, belli, and lyles are not around to drag him down. You on the other hand have some of the absolute worst basketball takes I have seen in the history of the internet. Your basketball takes read like somebody who watched a diagram example of a basketball play in nba 2k and said "well the spurs should do this." Your insistence that the spurs trade Murray is beyond stupid cause he is the only young player we have who has done anything at a all nba level. Your harping on Dejounte passing and his assist is mind boggling since we have several players on our team like LMA, Demar, Rudy, Derrick...pretty much everybody except Patti and Poeltl, who prefer to set up their own offense, prefer to hold the ball and size the defense up and make their own move, so Dejounte nor any point guard is ever going to be tossing these chris paul like passes to people to do...I do not even know what you expect the player to do after these made up fake great passes that Dejounte doesn't make, you never actually explain what is supposed to happen after the made up fake great pass Dejounte didn't make happens. Somehow you got all these problems with Dejounte and how he plays and what he does while at the same time trying to argue that the spurs should make concessions for a player who comes in fat every off season...out of shape every off season...and actively wanted to leave after having the most team success he will ever have because he didn't get to play basketball his way, WHILE being one of the highest paid players on the team. Seems completely illogical. But then again you are one of the most illogical posters I have ever seen on the internet, so I guess that makes your takes completely logical.

[Collins21]

Only shooting 3's is somebody else fault ? LMA is not in control of him setting one screen and stepping back and standing there ? Who is the person that is controlling this that is not LMA and how are they controlling it ? Where is the play that Pop is drawing up that says LMA set one screen take one step back and stand there ?

Rolling to the rim is not LMA fault ? LMA is not in control of setting a screen and then just running to the front of the rim ? Who is the person that is controlling this that is not LMA and how are they controlling it ? Where is the play that says now LMA no matter what do not go onto the block and post up ?

And it's never been about the fact that LMA post up, it's the fact that the spurs as a team do not get anything out of a LMA post up because he is such a bad passer. It does not generate open 3's, seeing as how the spurs starting lineup the last two years is toward the bottom at 3 point attempts...It doesn't help the pace of the game, seeing as how the spurs starting lineup the last two years played at a slower pace than league average, it doesn't help ball movement since LMA just stands in a spot waiting for the ball and then everyone else is just standing around him doing nothing because it's not like he is going to make a good pass. Then to make matters worse, LMA isn't smart enough to understand how to get post up's in the flow of the offense. He doesn't understand where to be on the floor for an easy dump off pass for a layup, or doesn't understand how to cut to the rim for an easy dunk, or really understand anything about basketball beyond what he does with the ball in his hand. Every since he has been here either he is playing great and the rest of the team is not, or he is playing like trash but the rest of the team is playing great.

Irrational hater ? There is something irrational about not wanting to watch a big man who can only score from 3 spots on the floor, pouts when he can't play basketball his way, is such a horrific passer that we had to abandon damn near our entire playbook, gives so so effort on defense, and the end result of all of this is fighting for an 8th seed ? I would think it would be irrational to actually want to see this type of basketball and have it lead to the type of results we are getting.

I don't know anything about offense ? I said LMA would abandon posting up before the season started. He did. I said Dejounte would be better this year because his problem is that he was playing with one dimensional shooters who weren't helping him on offense. So far so good, he has been much better now that forbes, belli, and lyles are not around to drag him down. You on the other hand have some of the absolute worst basketball takes I have seen in the history of the internet. Your basketball takes read like somebody who watched a diagram example of a basketball play in nba 2k and said "well the spurs should do this." Your insistence that the spurs trade Murray is beyond stupid cause he is the only young player we have who has done anything at a all nba level. Your harping on Dejounte passing and his assist is mind boggling since we have several players on our team like LMA, Demar, Rudy, Derrick...pretty much everybody except Patti and Poeltl, who prefer to set up their own offense, prefer to hold the ball and size the defense up and make their own move, so Dejounte nor any point guard is ever going to be tossing these chris paul like passes to people to do...I do not even know what you expect the player to do after these made up fake great passes that Dejounte doesn't make, you never actually explain what is supposed to happen after the made up fake great pass Dejounte didn't make happens. Somehow you got all these problems with Dejounte and how he plays and what he does while at the same time trying to argue that the spurs should make concessions for a player who comes in fat every off season...out of shape every off season...and actively wanted to leave after having the most team success he will ever have because he didn't get to play basketball his way, WHILE being one of the highest paid players on the team. Seems completely illogical. But then again you are one of the most illogical posters I have ever seen on the internet, so I guess that makes your takes completely logical.

Ok LMA can score from more spots on the floor than Poetl. How many time s last year did LMA pass out of the double team only for the player he passed it to then try to drive into the lane or pass up the shot. LMA being on the roster had nothing to do with being last in three's. Meanwhile yall criticize LMA and DDR for playing their brand of basketball but praise DJM for taking the same shots they take but he's not half as good as them at doing it. LMA doesn't play Defense but as the center piece of the defense we had a top 3 defense in 2017/2018. Also the dude hasn't pouted about playing style since 2017. So yeah all of this shit does sound like hate.

[DAF86]

You contorted yourself into incoherence in an attempt to go for a jab. Being paid more isn't important. If the team was actually better without Aldridge, then him being out wouldn't matter. The Warriors' problem isn't that Wiggins isn't playing well.

Anyway, acting like the Spurs should be concerned about winning a title any time soon is absurd. This is a developmental year, hopefully one that ends up with a playoff run and some good experience. That's why I don't care about the loss or think them almost winning is the biggest takeaway. I care about HOW they are doing it. Murray going off for a game is fine, fun even. But the Spurs long-term need to avoid that kind of offense and build a culture that passes and communicates on both ends. Murray not doing that has been his problem his whole career. Managing to score well doesn't change that.

And who said anything about winning a tittle soon? I'm talking about making the right moves so that we can start thinking about that as soon as possible; and one of those right moves is to get something in return on an Aldridge trade. Letting him go for nothing or re-signing him accomplishes nothing positive for the franchise in the near future.

[DAF86]

No. DAF wanted to say LMA isn't helping the team on the court, but he also wanted to get a dig in by saying that "You mean that the team needs good players to play well? Duh." But those two things are contradictory, so he had to talk about salary instead. Then he tried to cover his tracks by talking about how even when he plays well, Aldridge can't lead a team to a title. My point to that was that the Spurs shouldn't worry that Aldridge can't win a title, since they aren't in a place to do that anyway.

lol what? :lol Why are you inventing son? I said what I said, there's no reason to try to come up with other meanings. If I want to say something, I say it son. I'm a straight shooter, I don't beat around the bushes, tbh.

[Chinook]

And who said anything about winning a tittle soon? I'm talking about making the right moves so that we can start thinking about that as soon as possible; and one of those right moves is to get something in return on an Aldridge trade. Letting him go for nothing or re-signing him accomplishes nothing positive for the franchise in the near future.

So that random return for Aldridge isn't likely to move the team toward contention. I mean it could, but the natural picks the Spurs have should do more. If you're now fine with admitting LMA playing well helps the team now, then most of your argument is gone. It becomes whatever they could get in future value versus the value of having a good player play for them this year. You think pretty highly of the Spurs young players, so having them develop well on a good team should hold value to you.

[Chinook]

lol what? :lol Why are you inventing son? I said what I said, there's no reason to try to come up with other meanings. If I want to say something, I say it son. I'm a straight shooter, I don't beat around the bushes, tbh.

You wanted to say, "Duh, good players playing well helps the team. Awesome take." But because you're contractually obligated to not say Aldridge is one of the team's best players, you tried to talk about his salary. Of course, his salary has nothing to do why the team needs him to play well. His talent does. If the team had traded him for dead money and a first, I would not have said that dead-money contract needed to play well, and you wouldn't've expected me to.

Aldridge is the team's best player until further notice, and they'd go farther getting him to play well and the rest of the young players to fit in around him and DeRozan. If he's just done as a player, then everything changes and they need to move on. But if their goal is to win games this year, then they need to take the time to make sure he's done. Just two years ago, dude had 10 30-point games and another 37 20-point games. Even last year, he had seven 30-point games and 15 more 20-point games. He can do easily what the young guys can only do occasionally.

[DAF86]

So that random return for Aldridge isn't likely to move the team toward contention. I mean it could, but the natural picks the Spurs have should do more. If you're now fine with admitting LMA playing well helps the team now, then most of your argument is gone. It becomes whatever they could get in future value versus the value of having a good player play for them this year. You think pretty highly of the Spurs young players, so having them develop well on a good team should hold value to you.

How? Why? I never negated the fact that playing Aldridge over fucking Drew Eubanks will inevitably result in more wins during the regular season. That doesn't mean that trading Aldridge isn't the way to go, tbh. First, because even if it weakens the team on the present, it will make it better in the long run. And, second, although I agree it isn't the most likely scenario, who's to say we can't get better on an Aldridge trade? What if, in such a trade, we finally get that 6'8" guy we are so desperately needing?

[DAF86]

You wanted to say, "Duh, good players playing well helps the team. Awesome take." But because you're contractually obligated to not say Aldridge is one of the team's best players, you tried to talk about his salary. Of course, his salary has nothing to do why the team needs him to play well. His talent does. If the team had traded him for dead money and a first, I would not have said that dead-money contract needed to play well, and you wouldn't've expected me to.

Aldridge is the team's best player until further notice, and they'd go farther getting him to play well and the rest of the young players to fit in around him and DeRozan. If he's just done as a player, then everything changes and they need to move on. But if their goal is to win games this year, then they need to take the time to make sure he's done. Just two years ago, dude had 10 30-point games and another 37 20-point games. Even last year, he had seven 30-point games and 15 more 20-point games. He can do easily what the young guys can only do occasionally.

lol just no :lol

But even if he were (which there is no fucking way he is :lol) you are completely missing the point. The Spurs need to move on already. Aldridge is becoming a free agent this next offseason and resigning him makes no sense whatsoever. The Spurs need to trade him to get something instead of just letting an asset evaporate. The same with DeRozan.

[007nites]

Poetl needs to go up with two hands