Grades: Spurs @ Clippers - Jan. 5, 2021

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-los-angeles-clippers-game-7/

Sorry, Neph :smokin

[r0drig0lac]

- people love Aldridge around here and I can respect the reason, but any legitimate talent starting in place of the overpaid backup center would already be an improvement over what we had in the last few games, it was more about adding talent and value that were being lost, in a completely hypothetical scenario the salary of Aldrige + Lyles would give for example Wood + Randle and we are probably looking at a 7-0 record today.
- Keldon has already entered the "role player Kawhi" zone (I still believe he would have done this last season, probably with less consistency), in which he has one of the biggest impacts on the team, even when his numbers don't do it justice, he will probably achieve the superstar (tier 1) or star (tier 2,3 or 4) level in that league, but today Kawhi seemed to score on him with relative ease (although I don't have the numbers).
- Derozan with 0FT is strange to see.

[poopbox]

Rudy Gay got a B :lol

He had about as bad of a string of possessions toward the end of the 4th as you could have...

Blown dunk...missed open 3...two blown defensive assignments...unable to hold onto a rebound over a guy 6 inches shorter :spin

[NASpurs]

“Limiting DeRozan’s minutes was quietly one of the biggest keys to the win.”

If he came in a couple of minutes earlier in the fourth quarter, it would had been easily a loss.

[leo07251413]

I love this team and I love you, timvp.

Could you put the box score in the article like last year as well~

[FutureMan]

Rudy’s score is high but everything else seems spot on. I don’t think I’ve seen a player miss so many dunks in my life :lol

[John B]

Thanks for the grades. Right on the money. I was specially happy with Vassell. He is a natural and deserves more burns. He is just gonna get better. It was odd that Pop kept Patty in with the lead but a Clippers getting momentum. That should’ve been our best defenders who can switch on anyone. That was weird. The much awaited faceoff of Keldon vs Kawhi had our youngster taking the challenge. Kawhi won that match with 30 points and 10 assist. But I’m sure Keldon will take that to heart and get even better next game. A great game that’s a win over scumbag’s team, but I expect all will watch the film how to protect and close the game.

[Dejounte]

Thanks for the grades. Right on the money. I was specially happy with Vassell. He is a natural and deserves more burns. He is just gonna get better. It was odd that Pop kept Patty in with the lead but a Clippers getting momentum. That should’ve been our best defenders who can switch on anyone. That was weird. The much awaited faceoff of Keldon vs Kawhi had our youngster taking the challenge. Kawhi won that match with 30 points and 10 assist. But I’m sure Keldon will take that to heart and get even better next game. A great game that’s a win over scumbag’s team, but I expect all will watch the film how to protect and close the game.

Lonnie had the matchup with Kawhi tonight, not Keldon. Keldon was only on Leonard maybe 20%-30% of the time.

Maybe the purpose of Lonnie being assigned to Kawhi was so he would absorb all the bullshit fouls.

Keldon was on Kennard most of the night.

[Dejounte]

I don't think even the best defender in the NBA could stop Leonard tonight. Hardly anything can stop a fadeaway like that. Not length, not speed, nothing. The only way is to not let him get in that position.

[ragas]

- people love Aldridge around here and I can respect the reason, but any legitimate talent starting in place of the overpaid backup center would already be an improvement over what we had in the last few games, it was more about adding talent and value that were being lost, in a completely hypothetical scenario the salary of Aldrige + Lyles would give for example Wood + Randle and we are probably looking at a 7-0 record today.
- Keldon has already entered the "role player Kawhi" zone (I still believe he would have done this last season, probably with less consistency), in which he has one of the biggest impacts on the team, even when his numbers don't do it justice, he will probably achieve the superstar (tier 1) or star (tier 2,3 or 4) level in that league, but today Kawhi seemed to score on him with relative ease (although I don't have the numbers).
- Derozan with 0FT is strange to see.

hmm..let‘s see... Aldridge -10 netrating, Poeltl +36. Hell, yeah. Aldridge did much better for his 25 mill per year. Should be interesting how he does against AD, Gasol & LeBron. I wouldn‘t wonder if he doesn’t play against LAL because of his trade value.

[Slippy]

Great win.. shouldnt have been so close tho..

Can understand playing the hot hand and i may hsvr missed the sub. Not giving Patty and Rudy a breather in the 4th almost cost the game. That gamble almost didnt pay off by Pop.

FIba/ Boomers Patty what a game.. won it for the spurs . Their smallerr counter to Lou Williams of the clips

[C-Dub]

Gay is a very low IQ player. Every since he became a Spur, he has tried to dunk a slam dunk attempt very hard like he's trying to bring down the backboard like some young guy trying to showboat when if he had any type of basketball IQ, he would just do a nice layup or simply just dunk the ball without all the extra force. Guaranteed you can find at least 10 of those blown dunks from him with at least half of those coming in inopportune times.

[tbdog]

Clippers were hot from down town too. So it was a good win despite PG not playing.

[pookenstein]

Rudy’s score is high but everything else seems spot on. I don’t think I’ve seen a player miss so many dunks in my life :lol

kq8tgKJeEtY

[Blackhaus]

I love this team and I love you, timvp.

Could you put the box score in the article like last year as well~

and can you have dinner ready when we get home? That would be greaaaat....

[John B]

I don't think even the best defender in the NBA could stop Leonard tonight. Hardly anything can stop a fadeaway like that. Not length, not speed, nothing. The only way is to not let him get in that position.
Yup, Kawheasel was getting superstar calls. I hope Bowen would put a clinic with these youngsters on how to closeout and get on people’s face, or who does Pop have as his defensive guru? This group has a chance of getting really good defensively to hang their hat on. But they need to work on protecting the 3’s. They almost lost again from open 3’s. I hope Pop continues to address that.

[RC_Drunkford]

this whole collapse in the paint to give up a wide open 3 defense is retarded. Of course we will see a lot more of that, cause that's how the old man coaches. Best 1st half we played this season and aside from the Utah game, worst 2nd half of the season. This team can't score in the last 2 minutes of the game. I think the only player who hit a FG during that time was Dejounte. Same in the NOLA game, same in the Lakers games. Execution down the stretch is horrible

[MannyIsGod]

Aldridge grade is way too high.

[Dex]

https://i.imgflip.com/4sro0a.jpg

[TimDunkem]

There was a game last night?

[Chinook]

Lonnie had the matchup with Kawhi tonight, not Keldon. Keldon was only on Leonard maybe 20%-30% of the time.

Maybe the purpose of Lonnie being assigned to Kawhi was so he would absorb all the bullshit fouls.

Keldon was on Kennard most of the night.

Eh. Walker drew Leonard for most of the first half, but after Kawhi started getting buckets on him, Pop switched Keldon on him. Johnson was the primary defender for the next quarter, with Walker spelling him after Johnson exited in the third. I agree that it wasn't bad defense that had Leonard go off, but I also think Leonard felt more comfortable when Pop put more physical defenders on him. Leonard's a really strong dude, but I think he's still a finesse player at heart. He has to be in the mindset to initiate contact, and he wasn't for the first 20 or so minutes of the game.

[lefty]

https://i.imgflip.com/4sro0a.jpg


2003 playoffs all over again lol

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Our old guys looked old. LMA was pretty crisp at the start of the game, but it looked like he's only got about a quarter of so of fuel in him. Poetl is definitely better as a backup. Our lack of size is a definite weakness for this group. But I do like the fight in the young-uns.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'll take a victory over Kawhi anytime, and any way we can get it. :tu

[John B]

Our old guys looked old. LMA was pretty crisp at the start of the game, but it looked like he's only got about a quarter of so of fuel in him. Poetl is definitely better as a backup. Our lack of size is a definite weakness for this group. But I do like the fight in the young-uns.
Aldridge didn't play at the bubble, shortened pre-season, and he's old. He didn't come back in good shape.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Aldridge didn't play at the bubble, shortened pre-season, and he's old. He didn't come back in good shape.

Yeah, we'll see if he can play himself into game shape per his m.o. The older you are, though, the harder that is to do.

[MannyIsGod]

Honestly I can understand wanting to keep Derozan, but the Spurs really should trade LMA.

[Mugen]

Dejounte makes so many retarded mistakes and his ball handling is terrible but I'm proud of the kid so far this season tbh. Coming back strong after that garbage game vs the Jazz shows something...

[spurraider21]

kq8tgKJeEtY
ah, back in the good old days when we could complain about our scrub players during a 20+ point win :lol

[itzsoweezee]

“Limiting DeRozan’s minutes was quietly one of the biggest keys to the win.”

If he came in a couple of minutes earlier in the fourth quarter, it would had been easily a loss.

Yup. Is pop finally seeing it?

[Dejounte]

Eh. Walker drew Leonard for most of the first half, but after Kawhi started getting buckets on him, Pop switched Keldon on him. Johnson was the primary defender for the next quarter, with Walker spelling him after Johnson exited in the third. I agree that it wasn't bad defense that had Leonard go off, but I also think Leonard felt more comfortable when Pop put more physical defenders on him. Leonard's a really strong dude, but I think he's still a finesse player at heart. He has to be in the mindset to initiate contact, and he wasn't for the first 20 or so minutes of the game.

Let's look:



https://i.ibb.co/5LhKysW/VID-20210106-103846.gif

https://i.ibb.co/SNQGmwb/VID-20210106-103913.gif

https://i.ibb.co/TMqwqQk/VID-20210106-103939.gif

https://i.ibb.co/BCLXyL3/VID-20210106-104004.gif



https://i.ibb.co/rwxvt4W/VID-20210106-104043.gif

https://i.ibb.co/wR4ksB6/VID-20210106-104107.gif

https://i.ibb.co/2YtJCTB/VID-20210106-104133.gif

https://i.ibb.co/wKzxtRJ/VID-20210106-104154.gif



https://i.ibb.co/xq0t1Hj/VID-20210106-104224.gif


https://i.ibb.co/C0L7q2G/VID-20210106-104252.gif

https://i.ibb.co/f2XnqHD/VID-20210106-104326.gif

https://i.ibb.co/MMpXtRD/VID-20210106-104344.gif



https://i.ibb.co/Gs5mPrJ/VID-20210106-104403.gif

https://i.ibb.co/jbyNbJh/VID-20210106-104425.gif

https://i.ibb.co/MnkrVzL/VID-20210106-104443.gif

https://i.ibb.co/PhTGyZh/VID-20210106-104505.gif




https://i.ibb.co/sv14c7p/VID-20210106-104532.gif



https://i.ibb.co/vjKvZVK/VID-20210106-104555.gif


https://i.ibb.co/C26rFXh/VID-20210106-104616.gif

[Dejounte]

These are all Kawhi's field goals with the exception of Kawhi's breakaway dunk, Chinook.

FOUR of his 22 field goals were guarded by Keldon as shown by these .gifs.

4/22 = 18% of his field goals.

[Dejounte]

Look at this bullshit ass shove by Kawhi:

https://i.ibb.co/2YtJCTB/VID-20210106-104133.gif

Fuck this weasel

[JeffDuncan]

Patty's grade of A is even a bit low. I'm no fan of Patty - because he's so limited, and his limitations can be so irritating - but he's on the team to score, primarily with 3s, and that is exactly what he did, in a winning effort. Did his job superbly, in a win, should get him an A+.

I'm also no fan of Poeltl - that problem of limitations again - but I thought he should have been on the floor to close the game. He was having a fine game, 19 minutes with no fouls! His size might have been helpful, and made the last 3 or 4 minutes a little less of a struggle. Who Poeltl should have replaced? DeRozan.

DDR's patented move (of dribble drive, stop, pump fake pump fake, shoot and miss but draw the foul) was not required in the game, and definitely not at the end. I don't think the Spurs will ever need that again. The Spurs need to let DDR go at the end of the season, if they can't trade him sooner. Which they probably can't, because of his high contract price. But it's becoming increasingly clear that the young players are taking over.

[John B]

Keldon had the best chance of keeping in front of the scumbag, at least a hand in his face every time. Lonnie seemed to got tossed with a bump. The scumbag is really strong.
While Murray had success in fronting him with his long reach, even stole a pass to Kawhi, made a contested jumpshot missed. But I doubt DJ could guard Kawhi one-on-one. Kawhi would break him.
I didn't see Vassell tried. He emulates Kawhi's game, which is good for this youngster.

[John B]

Patty's grade of A is even a bit low. I'm no fan of Patty - because he's so limited, and his limitations can be so irritating - but he's on the team to score, primarily with 3s, and that is exactly what he did, in a winning effort. Did his job superbly, in a win, should get him an A+.

I'm also no fan of Poeltl - that problem of limitations again - but I thought he should have been on the floor to close the game. He was having a fine game, 19 minutes with no fouls! His size might have been helpful, and made the last 3 or 4 minutes a little less of a struggle. Who Poeltl should have replaced? DeRozan.

DDR's patented move (of dribble drive, stop, pump fake pump fake, shoot and miss but draw the foul) was not required in the game, and definitely not at the end. I don't think the Spurs will ever need that again. The Spurs need to let DDR go at the end of the season, if they can't trade him sooner. Which they probably can't, because of his high contract price. But it's becoming increasingly clear that the young players are taking over.

It's hard to keep Poeltl in the last possessions thought if he's not gonna make his freethrows. The guy seemed to got worst

[Dejounte]

Keldon had the best chance of keeping in front of the scumbag, at least a hand in his face every time. Lonnie seemed to got tossed with a bump. The scumbag is really strong.
While Murray had success in fronting him with his long reach, even stole a pass to Kawhi, made a contested jumpshot missed. But I doubt DJ could guard Kawhi one-on-one. Kawhi would break him.
I didn't see Vassell tried. He emulates Kawhi's game, which is good for this youngster.

Yeah, Vassell was assigned to Lou, Bev, and Kennard. Like I called it before the draft through my scouting of these players, his best defense comes against guards, not wings.

He needs to gain strength first before thinking about being assigned to Kawhi. He would get wrecked.

[Chinook]

These are all Kawhi's field goals with the exception of Kawhi's breakaway dunk, Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557).

FOUR of his 22 field goals were guarded by Keldon as shown by these .gifs.

4/22 = 18% of his field goals.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do think that some of the way you or whomever you're using to determine defensive responsibility has to you miss possessions. Like on with Lebron, his first bucket was a blow by of Johnson that was counted as a score on the help man instead. In these gifs (and thank you for them btb), you can see Kawhi on guys like Mills and Aldridge or Murray. How did that happen? It's clear those guys aren't the main Leonard defenders. They got caught having to switch. How many of those were good/necessary switches as opposed to broken rotations or poor screen-navigation? Many of the metrics ignore that and just look for data on who's closest or whatever. That's helpful analysis, but it lacks some important context.

Regardless, I don't think you can look at this and say that Johnson was a better Kawhi defender than Walker last night. Leonard had more success after the switch than before it. At best, it was incidental that Johnson didn't slow Kawhi down (and/or didn't stay on him for a lot of possessions). The ad-hoc results seem to suggest Kawhi had a higher PPP against Keldon than most players.

[JeffDuncan]

Get rebound first, worry about free throws second.

Absolutely.

[John B]

Get rebound first, worry about free throws second.
Yup he gets the rebound, would get fouled and miss both.

[JeffDuncan]

Yup he gets the rebound, would get fouled and miss both.

Don't be the pessimist. Poeltl hit a free throw last game. He could go 1 of 2, which is as good as Patty did.

[Dejounte]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do think that some of the way you or whomever you're using to determine defensive responsibility has to you miss possessions. Like on with Lebron, his first bucket was a blow by of Johnson that was counted as a score on the help man instead. In these gifs (and thank you for them btb), you can see Kawhi on guys like Mills and Aldridge or Murray. How did that happen? It's clear those guys aren't the main Leonard defenders. They got caught having to switch. How many of those were good/necessary switches as opposed to broken rotations or poor screen-navigation? Many of the metrics ignore that and just look for data on who's closest or whatever. That's helpful analysis, but it lacks some important context.

Regardless, I don't think you can look at this and say that Johnson was a better Kawhi defender than Walker last night. Leonard had more success after the switch than before it. At best, it was incidental that Johnson didn't slow Kawhi down (and/or didn't stay on him for a lot of possessions). The ad-hoc results seem to suggest Kawhi had a higher PPP against Keldon than most players.

I mean, it's why the league is trending more towards having versatile players at each position. Switches are going to happen and broken rotations are going to happen. The next man up has to be capable to guard the guy they switch onto. My point was not that Keldon did a better job than Lonnie, but it was just to point out that this game was not a full blown Keldon vs Kawhi matchup. Man to man defense is what I'm assessing here, and to me, in this very small sample size Kawhi wins round 1. The man has many practice hours under his belt to make difficult shots. Like you or someone said, Kawhi is a finesse player than an energy bully ball guy, and Keldon does a great job on the latter. Hopefully, he learns a thing or two from this game and adjusts for next time.

[exstatic]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-los-angeles-clippers-game-7/

Sorry, Neph :smokin

Not sorry. Seeing him skitter out of frame to avoid being on Keldons poster was sweetness, itself.

[John B]

Don't be the pessimist. Poeltl hit a free throw last game. He could go 1 of 2, which is as good as Patty did.
I like Poeltl to get in there because his defense is better than Aldridge, BUT his FT is a liability. He needs to get better especially after that new contract.
That Patty Mills miss was unfortunate, but you wouldn't want anybody else in the team taking that shot.

[Chinook]

I mean, it's why the league is trending more towards having versatile players at each position. Switches are going to happen and broken rotations are going to happen. The next man up has to be capable to guard the guy they switch onto. My point was not that Keldon did a better job than Lonnie, but it was just to point out that this game was not a full blown Keldon vs Kawhi matchup. Man to man defense is what I'm assessing here, and to me, in this very small sample size Kawhi wins round 1. The man has many practice hours under his belt to make difficult shots. Like you or someone said, Kawhi is a finesse player than a energy bully ball guy, and Keldon does a great job on the latter. Hopefully, he learns a thing or two from this game and adjusts for next time.

I think a match-up with both squads fully healthy would go differently. White is the best Leonard defender on the team. That would've let Walker and Johnson guard PG and come in as secondary defenders later on. I don't think Johnson has done a bad defensive job at any point this year. He's made some mistakes, but that happens to everyone. I just worry that he's going to get the Murray treatment where he gets a lot of credit for things he didn't do on that end, and it's going to cause Pop to improperly evaluate his defensive pieces. Johnson's been a fine defender and may develop into a very good one. But the team still needs a defensive PF with actual size. Johnson is holding his own, but if you constantly remove possessions where he is able to stay the closest defender, then you automatically bias the results to only include times where his defense worked. That methodology also unfair punishes rotating players since they're being judged for trying to stop a guy coming at them with a head of steam or being caught on an aborting switch or having an irrational size disadvantage.

[ginobilized]

Win or lose, this squad is such an improved product over last year.
I feel we are 1 or 2 pieces away from being a very good team. An uber-athletic power forward with strength and skill would be very useful.
A 6'8" point guard might do the trick, too.Some decent options in this draft class.

[MultiTroll]

Honestly I can understand wanting to keep Derozan, but the Spurs really should trade LMA.
Should have traded him a long time ago after one of his 50 point games. Might have been a few gullible GMs then. Not now.

A young, promising big + more to go with this young core? That would be sweet to see. To have seen 1.5+ years ago.

[MultiTroll]

Look at this bullshit ass shove by Kawhi:

https://i.ibb.co/2YtJCTB/VID-20210106-104133.gif

Fuck this weasel
Stop making it so fast go.
Is there a way i can slow the replay down?
https://31.media.tumblr.com/648a3d655f3ba39f17ae4842d4561c33/tumblr_moz4suHPZB1qbe0gto1_500.gif

[r0drig0lac]

https://twitter.com/N_Magaro/status/1346909613896077318

[Dejounte]

Dejounte "not a PG" Murray

https://i.ibb.co/ygxSVxK/VID-20210106-160926.gif

https://i.ibb.co/dBCQpd1/VID-20210106-160950.gif

These were clutch passes that would have given us a comfortable lead. Too bad Rudy blew it.

[Sugus]

Point blank clutch dunk miss by Rudy :lmao literally couldn't ask for an easier shot

[TD 21]

Walker probably did about as well as could be expected given his relative limiations, but I have no idea why he served as the primary Scumbag defender.

It's better to defend him with size, either big wings or bigs with sufficient mobility (closest the Spurs have to either is Johnson and Gay). Since the stiff relies on bullying smaller, weaker types, doing otherwise plays into his hands, forces emergency help and leads to rudimentary reads that even he can make.

[Chinook]

Nah, Kawhi like many post players struggles against agility more than against slow size. White woulda checked him and done another good job. No one else on the team obviously matches up better with Leonard than Walker.

[DAF86]

Walker probably did about as well as could be expected given his relative limiations, but I have no idea why he served as the primary Scumbag defender.

It's better to defend him with size, either big wings or bigs with sufficient mobility (closest the Spurs have to either is Johnson and Gay). Since the stiff relies on bullying smaller, weaker types, doing otherwise plays into his hands, forces emergency help and leads to rudimentary reads that even he can make.

White checks Kawhi as good as any other guy in the league and he's the same size as Walker, tbh.

[TD 21]

Davis defends Scumbag best because he can contain, absorb his blows/pushoffs and still contest.

White has a small sample size on him and is probably an exception to the rule. In a series, he'd probably destroy him though.

The number one key to any superstar/star matchup is to not have to provide help on the catch. Once you're forced to do that, you're screwed.

[Mugen]

Davis defends Scumbag best because he can contain, absorb his blows/pushoffs and still contest.

White has a small sample size on him and is probably an exception to the rule. In a series, he'd probably destroy him though.

The number one key to any superstar/star matchup is to not have to provide help on the catch. Once you're forced to do that, you're screwed.

Agreed, KJ would have been the best matchup. Not sure why the old man keeps trying to make Lonnie on Nephew happen.

The double team kept coming from opposite end/baseline as well, made no sense.

[Dejounte]

Agreed, KJ would have been the best matchup. Not sure why the old man keeps trying to make Lonnie on Nephew happen.

The double team kept coming from opposite end/baseline as well, made no sense.

Again,

Kawhi = Superstar

Superstars get calls

Keldon's impact > Lonnie's

Keldon is known more to be physical on offense and defense, putting him on Kawhi early while being at risk to draw offensive charges because he attacks the basket so much... not so good.

If Keldon is not in foul trouble in the 3rd or 4th, then you can put him on Kawhi

This is probably the logic that was used.

Having any of your most impactful players out for any long period of time because of foul trouble messes up the game plan.

[GAustex]

Probably splitting time to keep fouls down and save energy. Lonnie first and Johnson at the end.

[Gagnrath]

Walker probably did about as well as could be expected given his relative limiations, but I have no idea why he served as the primary Scumbag defender.

It's better to defend him with size, either big wings or bigs with sufficient mobility (closest the Spurs have to either is Johnson and Gay). Since the stiff relies on bullying smaller, weaker types, doing otherwise plays into his hands, forces emergency help and leads to rudimentary reads that even he can make.

Gay circa 2007 before injuries was a reasonable Leonard matchup... Current gay doesn't have the quickness

[TD 21]

Gay circa 2007 before injuries was a reasonable Leonard matchup... Current gay doesn't have the quickness

Which is why I said he's among the closest the Spurs have to the ideal archetype.

Extensive quickness isn't required since Scumbag is a stiff.

[JeffDuncan]

It's impossible to stop Leonard from shooting a jump shot, in any normal matchup. He's tall, and he has those freaky long arms, with a high release, and he jumps away from the defender. Also, he's learned to put a high arc on the shot, when he needs to. You can try moving your tallest player out onto him, but then your defense in the middle turns to marshmallow.

So when he decides to shoot, yeah, he'll get the shot off, almost every time. Your defender can't stop him from shooting. You have to deal with that.

The thing to do is to pester him constantly, with high energy. Make him work for it, at least. When he goes up to shoot the jump shot, forget the ball, you won't reach it. Wave your hand in front of his face to take away his best look at the rim. And go like hell for the rebound when he misses, so there's no second chance.

Another thing the Spurs could try, with the personnel they have now, is planned switching. I mean, the first couple times down the floor have Walker assigned to Leonard, but the next two or three times put Keldon on him, then Murray for a possession or two. Create uncertainty in his life, and prevent him from getting into a rhythm against a particular defender.

Well, whatever, Leonard got his 30 pts, but the Spurs still won. Good enough.

[Gagnrath]

Leonard is deceptively quick. While he may have slowed a little during his injury lay off rememery him Staying with the fastest guards in the league on defense..... The other bit is he is bigger than a lot of the guys who can stay with him so he doesn't require lots of separation to shoot over.

[John B]

Again,

Kawhi = Superstar

Superstars get calls

Keldon's impact > Lonnie's

Keldon is known more to be physical on offense and defense, putting him on Kawhi early while being at risk to draw offensive charges because he attacks the basket so much... not so good.

If Keldon is not in foul trouble in the 3rd or 4th, then you can put him on Kawhi

This is probably the logic that was used.

Having any of your most impactful players out for any long period of time because of foul trouble messes up the game plan.

Agree and putting different defenders would make Kawhi second guess on how to react

[spurs10]

and can you have dinner ready when we get home? That would be greaaaat.... Yeah timvp we would appreciate a bite if you can manage it. Do you have any egg nog? Asking for my wife.

[alfahdlan]

Look at this bullshit ass shove by Kawhi:

https://i.ibb.co/2YtJCTB/VID-20210106-104133.gif

Fuck this weasel
Poor KJ got the foul for his quick reflex reaction.
He’ll be wiser next time.
Onward to next meeting.

[spurs10]

Thanks for the grades. It was a great win!

[Chinook]

It doesn't surprise me that a lot of people believe good defense is physical. But it does surprise me that a lot of Spurs fans currently still believe that, since the Medium Three Spurs were not very physical at all. A guy like Danny Green proved on three teams he could be a really good defender, and he's never been a guy who absorbed a lot of contact. DPOY Kawhi was the same though he was strong enough to where it didn't matter. Very few players in the league use power offensively. The level to which those M3 teams could shut down opposing players was insane. They were very often not as big as the guys they checked. Height and weight simply aren't that important. Positioning, body control and anticipation do the bulk of the work. That's even true for massive mismatches like Mills on Durant, except at that point literally just shooting over the guy can work. But the 6-5 to 6-7 difference doesn't grant that.

I'm not against the team getting a big defensive four and putting him on Kawhi at all, of course. But it wasn't surprising to me that someone Walker's weight did fine and someone of Johnson's struggled more. But I am talking to the same people shocked --- SHOCKED -- when guys like Poeltl or Splitter don't just back down PGs in the post.

[RC_Drunkford]

the only guy I've seen who can guard Kovid Klaw is Giannis. And that's it. You can't stop him, you just have to work on making him less efficient

[Gagnrath]

Leonard is deceptively quick. While he may have slowed a little during his injury lay off rememery him Staying with the fastest guards in the league on defense..... The other bit is he is bigger than a lot of the guys who can stay with him so he doesn't require lots of separation to shoot over.

[r0drig0lac]

the only guy I've seen who can guard Kovid Klaw is Giannis. And that's it. You can't stop him, you just have to work on making him less efficient

Giannis, Simmons and Davis

[Dejounte]

It doesn't surprise me that a lot of people believe good defense is physical. But it does surprise me that a lot of Spurs fans currently still believe that, since the Medium Three Spurs were not very physical at all. A guy like Danny Green proved on three teams he could be a really good defender, and he's never been a guy who absorbed a lot of contact. DPOY Kawhi was the same though he was strong enough to where it didn't matter. Very few players in the league use power offensively. The level to which those M3 teams could shut down opposing players was insane. They were very often not as big as the guys they checked. Height and weight simply aren't that important. Positioning, body control and anticipation do the bulk of the work. That's even true for massive mismatches like Mills on Durant, except at that point literally just shooting over the guy can work. But the 6-5 to 6-7 difference doesn't grant that.

I'm not against the team getting a big defensive four and putting him on Kawhi at all, of course. But it wasn't surprising to me that someone Walker's weight did fine and someone of Johnson's struggled more. But I am talking to the same people shocked --- SHOCKED -- when guys like Poeltl or Splitter don't just back down PGs in the post.


I'm reading the posts between this one and your last and I'm not sure who you're addressing? No one brought up good defense = physical unless I'm missing something...

[Chinook]

I'm reading the posts between this one and your last and I'm not sure who you're addressing? No one brought up good defense = physical unless I'm missing something...

I'm not particularly addressing you. I am addressing the sentiment that being able to absorb Leonard's contact is really important or that in general defense is dependent on initiating and absorbing contact. Someone like White is not too small to guard Leonard. You don't need to be this big engulfing dude he can't push off or whatever. It helps to be solid physically to take that away, but being able to anticipate moves and beat him to his spots and interfere with passing lanes and navigating screens and a lot of other things matter more. Moreover, of all the players in the league, a designated Leonard defender is so irrelevant. Just guard him with someone and live with the results. Just don't give up easy looks to shooters.

[Dejounte]

I'm not particularly addressing you. I am addressing the sentiment that being able to absorb Leonard's contact is really important or that in general defense is dependent on initiating and absorbing contact. Someone like White is not too small to guard Leonard. You don't need to be this big engulfing dude he can't push off or whatever. It helps to be solid physically to take that away, but being able to anticipate moves and beat him to his spots and interfere with passing lanes and navigating screens and a lot of other things matter more. Moreover, of all the players in the league, a designated Leonard defender is so irrelevant. Just guard him with someone and live with the results. Just don't give up easy looks to shooters.

All good. I just wanted to understand what was being said.

I don't disagree with anything you said. A year or two ago, I would have. We have enough to slow down Leonard in a seven game series. What this team doesn't need are more Leonard stoppers.

What needs to be addressed is the fact that we collapse so much. We address that with players who excel at help defense, hence the reason we drafted Vassell it appears like. Vassell moves so quick from interior to perimeter that it doesn't matter when he overhelps. Now we need to get a big version of that.

[ezau]

Walker probably did about as well as could be expected given his relative limiations, but I have no idea why he served as the primary Scumbag defender.

It's better to defend him with size, either big wings or bigs with sufficient mobility (closest the Spurs have to either is Johnson and Gay). Since the stiff relies on bullying smaller, weaker types, doing otherwise plays into his hands, forces emergency help and leads to rudimentary reads that even he can make.

Agreed. To Pop's defense, however, Keldon was in foul trouble and Pop probably thought Gay didn't have the mobility to guard Cripples.

[Dejounte]

Collapsing/ overhelping in today's game is so common that it is done by one of the best defenders in the game:

https://i.ibb.co/dBCQpd1/VID-20210106-160950.gif

Overhelping/ collapsing is not as much a game plan than it just being a product or nuance of how the game is played today. The nature of today's game is spacing and drive and kick. You either help defend that drive or not and it's an easy layup.

You need players who are quick enough to recover or smart enough/ instinctual enough to deflect the pass.

[Chinook]

Collapsing/ overhelping in today's game is so common that it is done by one of the best defenders in the game:

https://i.ibb.co/dBCQpd1/VID-20210106-160950.gif

Overhelping/ collapsing is not as much a game plan than it just being a product or nuance of how the game is played today. The nature of today's game is spacing and drive and kick. You either help defend that drive or not and it's an easy layup.

You need players who are quick enough to recover or smart enough/ instinctual enough to deflect the pass.

Collapsing itself isn't a problem. The Spurs have a major issue with helping "one pass away" where they give up an easy assist by having the closest guy jump off his man to try to bother the shot. Usually, you want to do two passes away so you have time to rotate. I have no idea why SA does it that way. People have pointed it out before, and it doesn't surprise me that opponents can go off from there with the looks the Spurs are giving them. Pop's done a fine job keeping the level of intensity, and I'd say the guys are responding to his personnel groupings way better than last year. But the little schematic things like that rotation baffle me. No idea why he's coaching them to do that.

[Dejounte]

Collapsing itself isn't a problem. The Spurs have a major issue with helping "one pass away" where they give up an easy assist by having the closest guy jump off his man to try to bother the shot. Usually, you want to do two passes away so you have time to rotate. I have no idea why SA does it that way. People have pointed it out before, and it doesn't surprise me that opponents can go off from there with the looks the Spurs are giving them. Pop's done a fine job keeping the level of intensity, and I'd say the guys are responding to his personnel groupings way better than last year. But the little schematic things like that rotation baffle me. No idea why he's coaching them to do that.

That's not something I've noticed myself. Do you (or anyone reading this) have an example clip? Doesn't have to be the Spurs.

[Chinook]

That's not something I've noticed myself. Do you (or anyone reading this) have an example clip? Doesn't have to be the Spurs.

So this is a vid that Coach Nick at BBB did about the topic:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7XNYXLvPA4&ab_channel=BBALLBREAKDOWN

So basically when a guy is driving, it shouldn't be the first strong-side defender who commits to help, because it's really easy to drop off the pass to the shooter. So in that Murray gif, Bev helped one pass away, but he did so because he didn't respect DeRozan's jumper. The Spurs do that all the time, even against guys who can shoot. It's maddening.

[Seventyniner]

Some food for thought: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-bucks-built-the-nbas-best-defense-now-other-teams-are-copying-it/

Summary: the Bucks actually give up a ton of three-point attempts, as measured by the percentage of shots their opponents take that are threes.
Disclaimer: I don't watch the Bucks much at all, and I haven't paid any attention to their defensive schemes.

Still, it does seem that collapsing the paint and allowing threes is a viable strategy if you have the right personnel. This Spurs team has enough switchable athletes on the wings (and finally got rid of the enormous defensive liabilities of Forbes and Belinelli), plus decent (Aldridge) to good (Poeltl) rim protection that the Bucks scheme might work, at least on paper.

I do appreciate the discussion about where the help comes from. Again, I haven't watched the Bucks much and not with an eye to their defensive schemes, but I would imagine they do a great job not just of helping but helping from the right places and off the right shooters.


(https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-bucks-built-the-nbas-best-defense-now-other-teams-are-copying-it/)

[Seventyniner]

Aside: I am watching GS/LAC and I am very impressed with the Dubs color/commentary team. They try to be balanced (usually successful) and openly acknowledge wanting the Warriors to win.

The other opposing teams' crews have been very annoying so far. I have listened to the Grizz, Lakers, and Clippers crews and found them varying degrees of insufferable. Bill and Sean are probably not much better, but I'm biased here and like listening to them.

I remember enjoying the Wolves' crew in past years. Hopefully they haven't changed and I can listen to them for this weekend's games.

Another aside: tonight is the first game (out of 9) in which the Clippers have neither led nor trailed by 20. Seems crazy, but that might be one of those kinds of things that is more common than it seems.

[Sugus]

So this is a vid that Coach Nick at BBB did about the topic:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7XNYXLvPA4&ab_channel=BBALLBREAKDOWN

So basically when a guy is driving, it shouldn't be the first strong-side defender who commits to help, because it's really easy to drop off the pass to the shooter. So in that Murray gif, Bev helped one pass away, but he did so because he didn't respect DeRozan's jumper. The Spurs do that all the time, even against guys who can shoot. It's maddening.

Damn, I didn't know this had a different name other than general "overhelping". This is exactly what I've been seeing and complaining about every game. Thanks for the content, my guy :tu

[XDT76]

Dejounte "not a PG" Murray

https://i.ibb.co/ygxSVxK/VID-20210106-160926.gif

https://i.ibb.co/dBCQpd1/VID-20210106-160950.gif

These were clutch passes that would have given us a comfortable lead. Too bad Rudy blew it.

This was really a head shaking moment a 6ft8 missing dunk below the rim while being open.

[Dejounte]

So this is a vid that Coach Nick at BBB did about the topic:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7XNYXLvPA4&ab_channel=BBALLBREAKDOWN

So basically when a guy is driving, it shouldn't be the first strong-side defender who commits to help, because it's really easy to drop off the pass to the shooter. So in that Murray gif, Bev helped one pass away, but he did so because he didn't respect DeRozan's jumper. The Spurs do that all the time, even against guys who can shoot. It's maddening.

Thanks for posting. I noticed in the clips he provided that there was a common denominator: they were mostly playing small. Could it be the one pass away is implemented (if it is at all and not actual lack of discipline) because we don't have an adequate interior presence at times? Could it be that those who do guard one pass away, fail to instinctively jab step (as shown in the video) and commit way too much? Also, which teams do you think do this (one pass away) the least? I guess that would be an extremely hard metric to track.

[NASpurs]

1347203009810456580

[r0drig0lac]

1347203009810456580

where to check how the team is doing compared to the rest of the league?

[dbestpro]

When Pop had TD and DRob, he always talked about crowding the shooters, ply the passing lanes, and make them go to the basket to the shot blockers.

[NASpurs]

where to check how the team is doing compared to the rest of the league?

Has to be this unless I'm misreading the stats

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/opponent-shots-closest-defender/?Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CloseDefDistRange=6%2B%20Feet%20-%20Wide%20Open&sort=FG3_PCT&dir=1

[TD 21]

It doesn't surprise me that a lot of people believe good defense is physical. But it does surprise me that a lot of Spurs fans currently still believe that.

It is in certain cases, like the one we're discussing.



I'm not particularly addressing you. I am addressing the sentiment that being able to absorb Leonard's contact is really important or that in general defense is dependent on initiating and absorbing contact. Someone like White is not too small to guard Leonard. You don't need to be this big engulfing dude he can't push off or whatever. It helps to be solid physically to take that away, but being able to anticipate moves and beat him to his spots and interfere with passing lanes and navigating screens and a lot of other things matter more. Moreover, of all the players in the league, a designated Leonard defender is so irrelevant. Just guard him with someone and live with the results. Just don't give up easy looks to shooters.

It is or it's an uncontested mid range pull up or at the rim and increases the possibilities of an and-1.

Again, White is a possible exception. The Green's and Caldwell-Pope's of the world don't stand a chance.

Doesn't matter if you can't hold your ground.

Moreso about his archtype.

Far easier to accomplish when you have a credible initial defender.