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View Full Version : The HOLTING PATTERN: Are you happy with it?



adidas11
07-10-2003, 04:55 PM
Now that J O'neal seems certain to re-sign with Indy, and Jason Kidd is at best "iffy" to join the Spurs.

Elton Brand is a restricted FA. All other FA's are second tier players, none who are worthy of a max contract.

Since this HOLTING PATTERN started a couple of years ago, and we kept hearing how this was the Spurs big opportunity to land the coveted 2nd superstar, now that the final results are almost in, does everyone feel it has been worth it, or not? What are your opinions on how things have turned out? In my opinion, if I were a Spurs fan, I would be a little pissed. Luckily, the Spurs were able to turn in an awesome performance last season, and win a championship. But by no means should anyone confuse this with the idea that the Spurs had intended last year's roster to be their roster to contend for titles for the future.

Some posters, like GHOSTWRITER, and ADMIRAL, expressed their concerns with "putting all your eggs in one basket" and that cap room does not guarentee that superstar FAs will flock to San Antonio. Yet, some of the homers insisted that the HOLTING PATTERN was a sure-fire way to attract the coveted 2nd superstar. From the way things are looking at the moment, that might not happen.

And to make matters worse, the Lakers found a way to have a far more successful offseason, with a fraction of money to offer FAs than what the Spurs have. Talk about rubbing it in the face.

Your opinions on this subject are greatly appreciated.

IcemanCometh
07-10-2003, 05:00 PM
Hey asshole give credit where credit is due. I was the first to express concerns about it Admiral agreed, Ghost tried to take credit.

Archie
07-10-2003, 05:01 PM
You miss the point entirely. The plan for max cap flexibility was to deal with life without David Robinson. The Spurs wanted to give themselves the best shot at retaining Tim Duncan and building a team around him. It was never just about luring a superstar to San Antonio.

Spurs fans take Tim Duncan for granted but he was never a lock to remain in SA. The last thing the Spurs needed was to have no cap flexibility and go into a summer in which DRob retired.

If the Spurs were in that situation then the same exact people (Ghost and Ghost Jr.) would be complaining about that.

ducks
07-10-2003, 05:02 PM
I think it was ok to do. the spurs were contenders. and did when a title. I call that successfull. they also tried to net spree but da refused to go to anyteam then the blazers.

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 05:03 PM
It's not over yet, adidas. Things look shaky right now, but I won't give up hope until every star is re-signed.

The basic principles still ring true, though:

Cap space!= Superstar signings

Trades = Acquired Talent

:cooldevil

kohai
07-10-2003, 05:06 PM
Hilarious. LA has gotten an oral commitment from one of two senior citizens, SA is waiting on the best FA, and it's OVER? Adidas, you disappoint me with your blatant homerism.

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 05:08 PM
IceMan, we were never aware you had an opinion.


Archie, I don't think Duncan or the fans would've minded not having a lot of cap flexibility if we had traded for some nice, young talent or a veteran superstar during the Holt-ing Pattern, do you?







Question.


:cooldevil

bigzak25
07-10-2003, 05:17 PM
I fuckin hate that phrase.

Spurs won a title in 99.
TD injured in 2000.
Lakers steamrolled in 2001.
Smith and AD couldn't hit a shot in 02.
Spurs win a tile in 03.

This infamous "H pattern" potentially cost us ONE title by not signing a FA that could knock down a 3pt shot in 02.

with TD out, no FA would have made a shit of difference in 2000, and can you name the free agent that would have made up for the ass whuppin's we got in 01?

Archie
07-10-2003, 05:17 PM
Spurs fans would be bitching about DA taking up $10 mil in cap or GP taking up $15.

SequSpur
07-10-2003, 05:24 PM
You all fucking kill me sometimes... If we resign Jackson, Claxton, Willis and Kerr and get PJ Brown, we will be fucking fine and be able to compete with fucking anyone.

I don't understand why, oh why, oh fucking why, we have to have a max free agent to fucking win.

We just won with a little bit of David Robinson...

MVP
Coach of the YEAR!
MVP Finals!
2003 NBA Champions!

Except for a few mishaps, turnovers and mistakes.. we would have drove right through all of the damn competition like a semi going West bound and down! Shit!

Chill out! The Spurs will be a top team. Have some faith in your team's management.

**** Kidd. **** Payton. **** Malone.

Parker and Claxton all the way.....

Booo yaaaaaa....

Out!

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 05:25 PM
no matter how we got here or why... the point is, you have 16 million dollars to spend, tim duncan, and you're coming off of a championship season... if you can't get what you want with that... and you let go of prospects like GG because you wanted to save some cap room... then it looks bad.

the lakers know that gary payton and malone are quick fixes, but shaq is old and getting older... if we're still trying to "plan for the future" with tim duncan in his late 20's and a championship... we're in trouble.

alot of people seem to think we can sign 2 second tier free agents and still have cap room next year to go after brand and resign manu (and thats not true) not unless we sign 2 old guys for around 7-8 million a piece for one year contracts... and the only two old guys worth it are being taken by the lakers.

still, i think the spurs are in good shape with that much capspace... they could absorb lopsided trades to get an impact player, or give out a good hunk of change to relatively mid-level players for one year contracts. or go the next best route and sign a guy like pj brown and keep most of the current roster... so in terms of a plan... thats not so bad. (having alot of flexibilty)

adidas11
07-10-2003, 05:25 PM
Quote: "Hilarious. LA has gotten an oral commitment from one of two senior citizens, SA is waiting on the best FA, and it's OVER? Adidas, you disappoint me with your blatant homerism. "

Read my post again, Kohai, or whatever you call yourself.

I never said it was over. But Kidd coming to San Antonio is now suspect at best. Regardless, he is surely not a lock to come to San Antonio. And that's the point I'm trying to make. Are some of the real die hard Spurs fans, who are also sensible, happy with the prospect of the slight possibility of Kidd coming to San Antonio representing the best chance for the highly vaunted FA 2003 Summer bonanza? For the past couple of years, we've been hearing about how the Spurs were going to have their pick of the litter when this summer came around, and that with all of the free cap space, FA's were going to be jumping over fences to come to San Antonio. That is obviously not the case. A better way to describe the situation is that the Spurs will be lucky if ANY FA's decide to come here, and that the Spurs can only roll out the offers and cross their fingers. Are you happy about the options that are left? Kandi? Brad Miller? Nothing??? That's the point that I'm trying to make.

ChumpDumper
07-10-2003, 05:26 PM
Premature autopsies adidas.

I'm fine with the Holting pattern so far.

Didn't we just win a title?

You can give me some coulda-woulda-shoulda talk about winning more with trades, but that's just it -- talk.

Archie
07-10-2003, 05:27 PM
Are we Spurs fans happy with winning another championship and having $16 mil in cap space to use? WTF kind of question is that?

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 05:28 PM
I would've ignored public sentiment, dared Robinson to walk to the Knicks and held out longer for Webber in 2001.

I wanted us to let Anderson walk rather than take on Smitty as a two-year placeholder.

I would've accepted Chicago's offer of Mercer and Artest for Smitty in 2001.

I would've traded for Payton in 2001 to win in 2002 and 2003 and possibly have a star under contract today.

All of this could've been done during the Holt-ing Pattern[/b].


It's increasingly difficult to lure star free agents to new teams. Even with cap space, no income tax, a championship team, and a new practice facility, the Spurs are struggling.


:coold

adidas11
07-10-2003, 05:31 PM
Read again. Winning a championship this past season was not part of the Holting Pattern plan. The idea was to suplant David Robinson, who has retired, with either another superstar, or very solid center to replace him.

And yes, it's all what if's and coulda/shouldas right now.

But what would everyone be thinking if the Spurs had NOT won this past year?

This thread is NOT about how the Spurs won a championship this past year, with a roster that not many at the beginning of the season thought would be able to do it. Please stick to the subject, thank you.

CosmicCowboyXXX
07-10-2003, 05:31 PM
am I happy about how it turned out?

**** no...

If we hadn't won a championship on the way I would be absolutely disgusted.

The fact that we can be NBA champs, have the reigning league MVP just entering his prime, 16 million in cap space, and can't get one decent fucking free agent to come here just blows me away...especially with Payton and Malone going to the Lakers for exception money...it just rubs salt in the wound...:(

ChumpDumper
07-10-2003, 05:31 PM
wouldacouldashoulda

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 05:32 PM
yeah ghost... and i would have wanted us to win 3 championships during that time instead of one...

blah blah blah.

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 05:34 PM
Well, when I was saying what we "shoulda" been doing, I had a bunch of dopes like ChumpDumper insisting that clearing cap space for 2003 was the best thing for the franchise. Things are looking bleak right now, as expected.

Never give up hope until all the stars are re-signed, though, peeps.

:cooldevil

Archie
07-10-2003, 05:34 PM
Spurs couldn't have gotten Mercer & Artest and (allegedly) Payton.

It was one deal or the other, not both.

Anyways I'm still waiting for an explanation about how the lineup of Payton, Duncan, Larry Kenon, Jaren Jackson, and Mark Bryant was going to get past the Lakers in the 2002 playoffs.

Archie
07-10-2003, 05:37 PM
Read again. Winning a championship this past season was not part of the Holting Pattern plan. The idea was to suplant David Robinson, who has retired, with either another superstar, or very solid center to replace him.


Read your own damn question again.

ChumpDumper
07-10-2003, 05:37 PM
I wasn't insisting shit, Capser.

Don't be a tard. We argued the Payton/Parker trade based on talent and youth, not cap space.

I never said cap space was the holy grail.

I was all for trading Smitty for Rahim if that was ever true (it wasn't).

Get right or **** off.

adidas11
07-10-2003, 05:37 PM
?

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 05:39 PM
its funny because the last time i checked... the reason we let tony parker start at 19 was because we didn't want to trade or acquire guys who would take up long term contracts when duncan was in his final years...

the last time i checked, smitty's contract coming off the books was the only logical reason we didn't trade for mercer and artest... two guys who wouldn't have fit in with manu or let him develop and play as much as he did last year.

those two guys were a big part of winning a championship last season... during this holting pattern...

i could say that not signing a max free agent was a part of the holting pattern... would it matter?

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 05:41 PM
Looks like I struck a nerve, huh, Chump?


I still think Kidd is coming to SA as absurd as that may sound right now.




:cooldevil

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 05:41 PM
i forgot to mention speedy too... that trade would have never been made if speedy's contract had gone beyond last year.

MissAllThat
07-10-2003, 05:42 PM
I'm not upset that we have all this money to spend, but the way the Spurs have gone about trying to spend it as of right now is a little upsetting (ok, maybe a lot). I wouldn't mind getting PJ Brown, Brad Miller, and/or Corey Maggette. I would have prefered that the Spurs had gone after Malone and Gary, but the Lakers obviously thought the same way I did and went after the two (although I thought they'd want more money, props to them cuz they really do wanna win unlike Jason who says he wants to win, but I don't see him ever going and signing for the minimum for the good of the team). I think the Spurs can still do something good with their cap room this off-season and if they can't, well then they might as well just sign nobody and wait till next year. I think the current team we have can be good for many, many, years. They might not be a lock for a championship every year, but I like surprises and I do think that this group of guys could contend for the next decade. If we only get Jason Kidd, I'll feel like this whole thing was a waste, and then I'll be pissed, but I'm gonna wait and see what happens.

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 05:44 PM
Temple, Mercer is better than Smitty. Artest is Bowen with the benefit of an offensive skill set. Did Smitty or Bowen hold back either Manu or Jack this year?

No.


Next.



:cooldevil

ChumpDumper
07-10-2003, 05:44 PM
Looks like I struck a nerve, huh, Chump?
Yeah I get pissed when you lie about what I said.

Don't lie and I won't get pissed.

It's pretty simple.

We still have far more options than you seem to consider.

Archie
07-10-2003, 05:46 PM
No Chump, it's all over. See Ghost never wanted the Spurs to pursue a superstar this summer but he's hoping that Kidd signs now. Of course, he still maintains that the Spurs suck because they never pursue superstar free agents but he's hoping that the Spurs don't sign Kidd. Give him 5 minutes and I'm sure these positions will change again.

picnroll
07-10-2003, 05:47 PM
adidas if this were a normal year even if the Spurs hadn't attracted a superstar they could have picked up a couple of very good second tier players and been top contenders.

Things have changed and this is a very anomalous year. Shaq acted like a fat slob the last couple of years and now he got down on his knees and begged a couple of buddies to play for maid's wages to help him get his manhood back. Amazingly these two agreed to play for peanuts. How often does that happen. I sure hope Shaq is slipping some of his $20 million or so under the table to Payton and Malone for carrying his jock for him or Shaq a lot smarter and Payton and Malone a lot stupider than I gave them credit for.

So bottomline in a normal year without Shaq begging Payton and Maloneit's Holt-ing would have been fine and the Spurs could have done a great job of reloading. I don't think you can measure success against Shaq's blowjobs to his buddies.

Solid D
07-10-2003, 05:48 PM
The "Holting Pattern" was rendered chaff with the "Accidental Championship" (jk).

The Spurs got their NBA Championship in spite of the rebuilding strategy put in place prior to 2003-04. The Spurs get over and the rest of the world...well, they must get over IT.

The Spurs are now in the same position they had hoped to be in at this time last year...but in the +1 side for notches on the Old Championship Belt.

spurster
07-10-2003, 05:50 PM
Since this HOLTING PATTERN started a couple of years ago, and we kept hearing how this was the Spurs big opportunity to land the coveted 2nd superstar, now that the final results are almost in, does everyone feel it has been worth it, or not? What are your opinions on how things have turned out?
I thought the goal was to be as competitive as possible with the resources you have. The Spurs won the 2002-3 title. How could a Spurs fan be unhappy with that?

With that context, the current free agent season is frustrating. It won't be doom for the Spurs if Kidd doesn't sign with the Spurs, but it will be a frustration that NO LIMIT 2003 was off by one year (otherwise, Brand is ours). It is doubly frustrating to see the Lakers get Payton and Malone for cheap. Anybody can put together a great team if you get all-stars at the average salary or less. What's the competition in that? The Spurs would have paid $10M more to these jokers if they could have waited.

Archie
07-10-2003, 05:53 PM
rebuilding strategy

Exactly Solid. That's what this has always been about. Life without DRob. Maybe Ghost thinks that a nutter like Ron Artest is the perfect second star for the Spurs, but apparently Pop and RC thought differently.

Sure, if the Spurs could find a franchise player who wanted to join them in SA they would welcome him. If not the Spurs still have plenty of other talent to pursue as well as trades to explore.

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 05:56 PM
Temple, Mercer is better than Smitty. Artest is Bowen with the benefit of an offensive skill set. Did Smitty or Bowen hold back either Manu or Jack this year?

No.


Next.

what kind of crap is this ghost? of course i would have taken mercer and artest for smitty... but we can't say that we would have won a championship with them... especially considering the kind of cancer artest has turned into.

smitty's contract ending this year is one of the reasons we let manu play as much as we did... speedy was brought in as a backup in a trade because his contract was up this year too... those were just some of the reasons we won it all last year... not trades we never made... and yes... they were a direct result of the holting pattern

next? please...

Solid D
07-10-2003, 05:59 PM
Yep. The Spurs have rebuilt the core with young, talented, athletic players and gotten Tim to agree to a long-term Max deal, left themselves plenty of flexibility (so far) and won a championship, to boot.

Let's see now...what's disappointing about that?

T Park Num 9
07-10-2003, 06:02 PM
resign our FAs and sign PJ Brown sounds ok with me

if Kidd doesnt sign with the Spurs.

PJ Brown = David Robinson of 02, maybe a tad better.

Bringinging back Speedy, Jack, Manu, Parker and the young foreign Legion would be a great move, and sign a couple vet mins to replace Ferry Bateer, and were lookin at ring numero Dos. :eyebrow

Archie
07-10-2003, 06:02 PM
I wish I knew, Solid D. I wish I knew.

baseline bum
07-10-2003, 06:07 PM
I think they should have gone hard after Gary Payton. If Kidd stays in New Jersey this offseason is a total bust. The Spurs had the money AND a title contender to offer GP, but they never seemed too interested in him. Now that he's in LA the Spurs are in serious trouble if they don't either get a commitment from Kidd or have some good dirt on Sterling to force him to not match on Brand. :D

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 06:09 PM
i know what sucks archie... what sucks is that no matter what we do this offseason, if we don't get kidd we're going to look like ass-clowns.

16 million, tim duncan, and a championship... and you can't get a guy who's been on almost as many teams as chucky brown... even if he is an "all star"

the fakers meanwhile, have $2 and whatever falls out of fatass' pockets and pick up a 20pt a night guy... and a 10board a night guy...

it does look bad... but whatever.

Archie
07-10-2003, 06:10 PM
bbum...one possibility is to look for deal to get a proven perimeter scorer. Not sure what that would be but there are other possibilities.

baseline bum
07-10-2003, 06:13 PM
Sprewell, Eddie Jones, or Jalen Rose is about all I see on the block. Any of those I would consider a bust.

Archie
07-10-2003, 06:14 PM
Then offer to take on some unwanted contracts to facilitate a trade?

picnroll
07-10-2003, 06:14 PM
Can we act as a conduit for Arenas to a team over the salary cap that he might want to go to for a player we like?

Archie
07-10-2003, 06:15 PM
That's like what timvp suggested with Golden St. If there is a team that wants to go under the cap the Spurs can do that...for a fee.

baseline bum
07-10-2003, 06:16 PM
I don't see anyone I'm too happy with that's on the block right now. Gasol would be closest, but will cost us Parker and Ginobili at least.

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 06:16 PM
it would take guts to go after a guy like odom... at the very least, you'd make the clips commit long term to a guy they've always wanted to treat as a project...

------
i knew a girl named no limit amy once.

ducks
07-10-2003, 06:17 PM
the spurs could look for deals that contracts end again

spree has a one or 2 year deal left ?

but trading for those players might be difficult

Archie
07-10-2003, 06:17 PM
Golden State would seem like a good team to work with. Others could be Milwaukee, Atlanta, and Memphis.

Archie
07-10-2003, 06:17 PM
Spree-PJ?

Archie
07-10-2003, 06:18 PM
Actually, Indiana now might not be a bad team to trade with.

baseline bum
07-10-2003, 06:19 PM
the spurs could look for deals that contracts end again


The Spurs are in a unique situation they can probably never again attain while remaining competitive. Ginobili and Jackson will have to be paid, a bigman wil have to be paid, and Parker will be due a big paycheck by then. Holding cap space is not an option again when you have Tim Duncan in his prime right now.

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 06:20 PM
the spurs were looking to trade smith for spree last year...

picnroll
07-10-2003, 06:21 PM
I'm thinking along these lines. Let's say West likes Arenas and Arenas is willing to go to Memphis for $8 million. We take Arenas and trade him to Memphis for Gasol and maybe pick up a slightly but not too onerous contract as well that would expire in 2 or 3 years.

MissAllThat
07-10-2003, 06:21 PM
All I have to say now is that if Kidd really wanted a championship like he says he does, he would go and take less money (like Payton and Malone) for the benefit of the team (whether it be the Nets or Spurs) so that the team could get other guys to make them better.

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 06:24 PM
actually base... if the spurs went after zo and offered him 10million for one year... use the 6 left over to resign speedy and jax to contracts that would be back loaded (a little) and then sign a bunch of vet mins... they'd have most of the championship cast back... zo would get a big pay day and a chance for a ring... we'd have money next year to try to maybe get brand and squeeze in manu? right?

adidas11
07-10-2003, 06:27 PM
This is exactly my point.

Yes, it is very nice to have a lot of cap room, and amazing flexibility. Yes, it was awesome that the Spurs were able to win the NBA title in 2003. But are you telling me that Pop and Co. were hoping that this rebuilding project would yield the chance to get Brad Miller, or Kandi? I don't think so. This idea was started in mind because a slew of FA's were supposed to be available this summer. Nowitzki, Pierce, Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, J' O'neal, Malone, Payton, Mourning, etc. This pond is slowly dwindling, and the team that was supposed to be the most desireable option for these guys, has a chance of not getting ANY of them! This is my opinion on the flaw of this HOLTING PATTERN. The problem started last summer, when a lot of the younger FA's re-upped with their current teams via extensions. Paul Pierce and Nowitzki come to mind. This was unexpected, but the economic climate of the NBA made these players decided that the extension was better than the unknown future. Now we're in this summer, and the only viable player left is Jason Kidd, who might be using the Spurs to gain leverage against the Nets!

This is not to say the Spurs are doomed, because they aren't. They still have a solid team, and Tim Duncan. But to also say that the summer is going as they hoped so far is a bit of a stretch.

Archie
07-10-2003, 06:30 PM
They never looked at this as a free agency bonaza they looked at it as giving themselves the chance to build the team around Duncan once DRob retired. If they got a star, great. If not, then fine, work with what you have.

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 06:31 PM
whatever adidas... just pray fatass isn't chewing on alot of twinkies and fat burgers... and kobe stays out of jail. (you want to see crying? - wait until that happens)

the spurs are in good shape... the only reason it looks bad is because the media and the no limit army were stuck on one dude for 2 years...

adidas11
07-10-2003, 06:32 PM
MissAllThat, why should Kidd take less money? He's 30 years old, and this is probably his last opportunity to land a maximum contract in his career. He's not like Payton and Malone, both of who are older, and weren't going to command anywhere near max contracts. Perhaps Kidd is looking out for his family first, and the generations of Kidd's down the road who that money can go towards.

As a professional, your #1 goal is to maximize your profits, within reason. To this point in his career, Kidd has not been "paid" yet. This is his chance to finally get "paid". I've been saying this for a long time, money WILL play a difference in this outcome, not the chance to POSSIBLY win a championship with another team.

ChumpDumper
07-10-2003, 06:36 PM
Of course it's taking a chance, but it's not like the Spurs never tried a trade in the meantime (see Smitty for Spree). There are probably more that we'll never hear about.

They decided that, in the face of not getting the trades they actually wanted and not some crap Sam Smith dreamed up, this was the way to go.

The best you guys can say now is that the Spurs may have won two championships instead of one. Big whoop. I say they did win one championship.

MissAllThat
07-10-2003, 06:37 PM
Adidas, I'm not saying he has to take less, I'm just saying that it's either about the money or the championship. Plus, I don't think the Kidds really 90+ million dollars to lead a happy life. I'm sure Joumana could live without a hundred Gucci bags or Prada pants, but if that's what matters then that's cool. I'm not saying that him wanting all that money is bad, but if he really did want the championship he could sacrifice a few million dollars (and we all know he could make up for that with his endorsment deals anyway).

bigzak25
07-10-2003, 06:38 PM
Damn it Adidas,

is it dissappointing that we don't have allstars lining up to suit up next to TD, yeah, but it's not the end of the world as we know it man...

This "rebuilding" project has netted a title and the opportunity to fill holes and win another one. What's not to like?

The Lakers will think the title is automatic, but shaq won't work as hard, malone won't work as hard (1.5) mil, and Payton has already said how FUN this season is gonna be. Gary is definitely gonna party it up in LA. They will be a formidable team, but not unbeatable by a longshot.

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 06:41 PM
You guys can all suck it as far as I'm concerned. Don't get pissed at me because I fought the Holt-ing Pattern every step of the way.

Sh1t, I am showing more faith in it now than posters like Chump who blindly stand by the front office no matter what or revisionists like Archie who want spare parts in a trade with Cleveland, yet profess to have been behind the Holt-ing Pattern all along.

I am man enough to admit that I didn't want to clear cap space and forsake opportunities to win now for a chance to sign a star a couple seasons down the road. I wanted to do some of the trades we read about the Spurs being offered. I admit that I didn't think the Spurs could win a title while rebuilding without a lot of luck and a major change in the rotation.

You b1tches can p1ss and moan all day and take your frustrations out on me as much as you want.

I am living in the now. I think we're going to get Kidd after all. If we don't, I hope we can get Brand to accept and offer from us for the max. After that, there's always guys like Odom and Olowokandi and PJ Brown.

The Holt-ing Pattern ain't over yet, folks. Not by a longshot.

:cooldevil

IcemanCometh
07-10-2003, 06:43 PM
Just because a player isn't an all star doesn't mean hes not good or not worth signing. Gilbert Arenas hasn't made an all star team and people seem to want to sign him. Tracy Mcgrady sure as hell didn't seem like much to you guys and he worked out pretty well for the Magic.

Too many of you are focused on the big name fa's

adidas11
07-10-2003, 06:45 PM
Ok, please seperate "winning championship" from "rebuilding". These are two different situations, and remotely related to each other at best.

As far as the HOLTING PATTERN is concerned, one of it's desired results was not winning an NBA title. Do you really think that Pop and Co. did it with winning the title in 2002-2003 in mind? No, it's more of a testament to Pop's coaching staff, and the Spurs roster to gel together and form a winning unit. It had NOTHING to do with the rebuilding project that they went through.

Let's talk about NOW. Can you really say with a straight face that the Spurs were hoping to be in this situation this summer, with respect and only respect to the FA situation?

That's like me saying that I was thrilled that the Lakers let go of Elden Campbell and Eddie Jones, to get Glen Rice (who I didn't want) and to pick up Dennis Rodman in 1999. One of the worst moves the Lakers have ever made. I'm still saying that now, even though the Lakers found a way to win 3 titles in a row, in spite of this horrendous error. They lost two players, who would more than make up for their current deficiences (athletic swingman, and PF/back up center)

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 06:45 PM
I am living in the now. I think we're going to get Kidd after all. If we don't, I hope we can get Brand to accept and offer from us for the max. After that, there's always guys like Odom and Olowokandi and PJ Brown.

The Holt-ing Pattern ain't over yet, folks. Not by a longshot.

the question was are you happy... not are you crazy.

Archie
07-10-2003, 06:47 PM
Sure the Spurs would love to be adding a star like JO or Kidd right now but do you honestly think it's a horrible situation otherwise? Get some perspective.

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 06:52 PM
Ok, please seperate "winning championship" from "rebuilding". These are two different situations, and remotely related to each other at best.

have you even been watching the spurs play? most of the moves they made or didn't make resulted in us having the team that won the championship... they were directly related whether or not it was intended.

the spurs were never rebuilding... they were reloading at cost. (some because of elliott) but you don't ever "rebuild" when you have an aging all star center and a two time MVP.

yes it looks bad that we have all this money and no one to spend it on... yes it looks bad that the lakers get 2 old all stars while we can't make any moves because of waiting on kidd... yes i thought we should have gone after o'neal first and alot harder... but 25 million would have been harder to compete with than anything being offered kidd right now.

whatever this holting pattern was... at least it gives us options and 2 new faces that might be stars in the years to come (manu and parker)

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 06:56 PM
Who are you talking to?

Settling for anything less than a superstar would've been a collossal disappointment this summer.

Like I forewarned about a year ago, we probably would have to settle for a guy like Olowokandi in the summer of 2003. You weren't prepared for that.

I also said that settling might not be so bad. Replacing the center of a championship-caliber team is at least maintaining. With expected improvement from our young guns, that's a better team. You take the remaining money and shore up any other weaknesses or try to add a budding young player before he blows up.


But please don't act like striking out on Brand, Kidd and O'Neal or even Malone and Payton is what you, the homers or the front office had in mind when the decison was made in 2001 to clear out cap space for this summer.

That's an f'n joke.




:cooldevil

Archie
07-10-2003, 07:00 PM
Now you are complaining about the Spurs winning a championship and being able to pursue a max free agent afterwards. **** it, you are a child. Grow the **** up for once.

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 07:03 PM
But please don't act like striking out on Brand, Kidd and O'Neal or even Malone and Payton is what you, the homers or the front office had in mind when the decison was made in 2001 to clear out cap space for this summer.

That's an f'n joke.

i know you're talking to archie... but i hated the fact that we didn't go after trades harder. in fact i always hated the reasons given for not getting more talent... the no limit army etc... but the fact that people are trying to make the best out of a bad situation isn't a joke.

alot of players re-up'ed during the past two years... players who would have been free agents this year... its just the way it worked out. now you're left with a championship, manu and parker (yeah no GG - because of cap space concerns) but tim duncan and 16 million dollars... its not like the kiss of death or anything... even if it wasn't intended either... like the championship.

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 07:06 PM
Archie, I am not complaining. I am defending my position and calling you out for being a mind-changing, irritable b1tch.

Please re-read my posts if that didn't come through the first time, Mr. Plan Z.

:cooldevil

IcemanCometh
07-10-2003, 07:08 PM
man shut the hell up you retard

enough with the "holting pattern" crap. its not cute its not witty. give it back to whatever 12 year old you stole it from

Temple Of The Dog
07-10-2003, 07:12 PM
yeah but you know... ghost is right. i thought if this day finally came and no max free agent was signed... most of the no limit army crew would have to be put on suicide watch...

ChumpDumper
07-10-2003, 07:32 PM
Like I forewarned about a year ago, we probably would have to settle for a guy like Olowokandi in the summer of 2003. You weren't prepared for that.
I was, and said so on the old board. Perhaps you'd like to lie about what I said now.

And for the record (again) I don't agree with everything the FO does. Really, just stop lying, Casper.

I was very disappointed in our non-draft this year. Completely unnecessary capwise considering the feeble cap hit it would entail (if any - a draftee on a foreign team and staying there wouldn't). So we missed out on a guy like Pachulia who is laying waste to SL as we speak.

I guess you won't stop lying though, so **** right off.

Archie
07-10-2003, 07:40 PM
man shut the hell up you retard

enough with the "holting pattern" crap. its not cute its not witty. give it back to whatever 12 year old you stole it from

Amen ice.

Archie
07-10-2003, 07:43 PM
I've never changed my opinion from day one, 'tard. You are the one who jumps from wanting Olowokandi to wanting Kidd to wanting Odom to God only knows what. You complain when the Spurs can't pursue big name free agents and you complain when they do. You are a perfect online bitch. Forget about listening to some whiney girlfriend we have the next best thing mixed in with our Spurs discussion. Can't beat that.

Solid D
07-10-2003, 07:52 PM
Thought for the day:

When tards run out of ammo...they re-tard.

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 08:47 PM
You people need me to vent your anger and frustration on.

Especially Archie.

That fool whipped up every trade scenario under the sun during the past 2 years and now want to come off like he supported the Holt-ing Pattern every step of the way.

People gave me such a hard time for warning against the dangers of clearing cap space and not pursuing trades and now that it seems like we're whiffing once again, they need someone to blame. Someone to pick a fight with.

Well, you can all go screw.

You're either lying or kidding yourselves.

Revise the past. Rationalize the present. I don't care.

We know wo said what over the past two years.

My cards are on the table.

I'm disappointed in you people for folding already.

We're getting Kidd, freaks.

Relax.

:cooldevil

Bullsh1t.

timvp
07-10-2003, 08:51 PM
So does Ghost like the idea of getting Kidd or not? I haven't figured that out.








Question.

spurster
07-10-2003, 08:51 PM
Yes, plans A through Z was to get a max free agent this summer. If that doesn't happen, then obviously plans A through Z have failed. Somehow though, the Spurs won the title, which somehow makes that failure something less than a major crisis. The level of disappointment will be much, much less than the sweet smell of a championship.

ChumpDumper
07-10-2003, 08:53 PM
C'mon timvp, he said his cards were on the table....:blah

He's fer it, pending a trade for a big man.

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 08:59 PM
Chump, sorry for lumping you into my general response to everyone in this thread that had something stupid to say to me to make themselves feel better about not getting the superstar of their dreams.

I do recall you having a more realistic point of view many months ago regarding this summer on the old Forum now that you mention it.


timvp, please refer to any one of the 300 posts I've left here in your Forum to see today's thoughts by me.

To recap:

I think we are still getting Kidd. If we don't we need to convince Brand to accept an offer from us. If that doesn't work, check out Odom, Olowokandi, Brown, Nesterovic, etc.

I'm not giving up on a superstar just yet.


:cooldevil

ChumpDumper
07-10-2003, 09:07 PM
Chalk it up to the heat of the moment.

IcemanCometh
07-10-2003, 09:31 PM
Gost comes from the philosophy that if you repeat something enough times people will believe it. Hes now told us 1521 that hes is so smart and we are so wrong. We still don't believe him tho.

TwoHandJam
07-10-2003, 10:11 PM
Ghost I have read your posts since the old forum and the most dominant theme in the vast majority of your posts is the way you slip some kind of "I warned you" or "I was right" or "I told you so" sentence in there somewhere.

On the whole you seem like an intelligent sort who could be agreeable to carry on discussion with. That said, you seem to have a huge inferiority complex which drives you to constantly prove to others that you were right about something. As you can see by some of the vitriol being thrown your way by other posters in this thread, it tends to get people upset at you.

You do have some good takes but you also have a lot of takes. Inevitably, you are going to be right about some of them. Try not harp on these takes or throw them in other people's faces as if they somehow "didn't listen to you". It's really quite annoying. Most posters in here remember some of your takes (we all have them) that weren't quite so enlightened but we don't post them every other day so you can remember how "wrong" you were.

So please stop trying to tell everyone how "right" you were.

Archie
07-10-2003, 11:04 PM
Yes Ghost, we know what you've said. You've said the Spurs never pursue star free agents like other team. You complained about that. Now what are the Spurs doing?

And yet you complain.

Don't talk to me about consistency you fucking tool.

adidas11
07-11-2003, 02:22 AM
Another stellar post by TwoHandJam. :rolleyes

And Archie, I think Ghost has always been a proponent of trading for a superstar player, instead of hoping a FA decides to come to San Antonio. Ghost was never a fan of the HOLTING PATTERN. By trading for a superstar player, they are forced to play for you. Hoping a FA decides to come to SA is leaving the fate in their hands, at best.

At least, that's what I think Ghost is trying to allude to.

Archie
07-11-2003, 02:35 AM
Ghost just complains. And for the record he complained forever about why the Spurs weren't signing superstar free agents when they were capped out. That went on for a while, IIRC.

Admiral
07-11-2003, 02:38 AM
If we only had a credible black assistant coach, perhaps the Holting Pattern would've turned out better.

Ghost Writer
07-11-2003, 10:30 AM
TwoHand, thanks for the tips. I'll look into that.

Archie, you're the one giving up and complaining like the little b1tch you are. You need to vent your frustrations in a more healthy manner. Oh, and stop with all the lying about you being behind the Holt-ing Pattern 100%.



Admiral, as it turns out, we didn't need to hire acredible black assistant coach — Popovich finally trusted ballas to get the job done and they did.


IceMan, how's your cat's breath doing, dope?



adidas, thanks for separating fact from fiction. These homers can get really moody and need scapegoats when the going gets tough.


:cooldevil

Archie
07-11-2003, 12:40 PM
:lol Ghost, no one believes a word you type. You're worse than Jayson Blair.

Ghost Writer
07-11-2003, 12:55 PM
Good one, Archie. There's nothing to 'beleive'. All my posts are here for public viewing.

If you take exception to something, quote me and call me out. If you need someone or something to vent on, be my guest.

Feel better now?


Don't blame me if the Spurs have yet another failed offseason despite your angry insistance that things would be different because we finally had cap space.


Whatever helps you sleep at night.



:cooldevil

Archie
07-11-2003, 12:57 PM
Sure Ghost. Everyone believes that you've been on the 'correct' side of every argument. Just go.

Ghost Writer
07-11-2003, 01:00 PM
What is your problem, Arch?

I've done nothing but be supportive this summer.

Find another scapegoat.

Sorry for thinking differently than you. I can't help it that it's usually closer to reality.


:cooldevil

Archie
07-11-2003, 01:20 PM
Yeah Ghost, tell us about that reality in which the Spurs are not doing "anything".

'cept developing young players and winning a championship, of course.

Ghost Writer
07-11-2003, 01:41 PM
Popovich had no other choice, but to play the youth. I told you that while you argued that Smitty would play this past season, because "... there's no way the Spurs pay $9 million to a player to sit on the bench."


You're digging the hole deeper, Archie. Leave me out of your frustrations. It's not healthy for you.

:cooldevil

Archie
07-11-2003, 01:47 PM
Ha. Get back to complaining about the Spurs not pursuing star free agents or was it their lack of a "credible black assistant coach" or was it Pop's inability to relate to players or...?

Don't even start. I know more about this shit than you do. I also am able to participate in a discussion without pretending that everything someone suggests is a guarantee it is going to happen. There's a reason we laugh at you. You are a moron.

Ghost Writer
07-11-2003, 01:51 PM
:rollin


What an @ssh0le.


You are the biggest hypocite going.

You looked for trades ebery step of the way of the Holt-ing Pattern.

You never thought that Pop would turn to the ballas with Smitty and Ferry around.

You were so sure that a superstar was coming that now that it doesn't lokk that way, you want to pick a fight with the one person who told you we should be happy with 'crap' like Olowokandi.

I ain't mad 'atcha.

:cooldevil

Archie
07-11-2003, 01:53 PM
You're right. I'm going to be an "asshole" to you today because you've earned it.

Ghost Writer
07-11-2003, 01:56 PM
For what?

Calling you out and exposing you as an irritable, double-talking, fantasy-chasing, history revising, frustration-venting little b1tch?

What have I done so wrong but comment on possibilities as they arise. You still can't point out where I am complaining about anything whatsoever. I amy disagree with some of your views, but that's not complaining.

I think it hurts you to be proven wrong.


I wish you would've been more prepared for a letdown, but don't take it out on me because I am not surprised by the current predictament.


:cooldevil

Archie
07-11-2003, 02:08 PM
Calling you out and exposing you as an irritable, double-talking, fantasy-chasing, history revising, frustration-venting little b1tch?

Perfect description....of you.

adidas11
07-11-2003, 02:09 PM
You're drowning Archie, and very fast I might add.

Quit acting like the Spurs had a developed, secret plan to win a championship this past season. This had nothing to do with the HOLTING PATTERN.

They won, in spite of the HOLTING PATTERN. Their big push to try and secure a dynasty was the Free Agency this summer. And they're on the brink of not getting the desired FAs that I'm sure they wanted this summer.

Ghost has been on the mark about this for the past two years. He's been warning people about the possible outcome of the HOLTING PATTERN, but the homers kept laughing, thinking that FA's were sure to come to San Antonio as long as the Spurs had enormous cap room.

Archie
07-11-2003, 02:13 PM
adidas, you bring about as much to the table as Ghost does and that perhaps is a little too much credit.

Sure the Spurs didn't blow their cap during their rebuilding years but it's not like they were totally complacent. Bruce Bowen wouldn't normally be a player you add during a complete rebuilding year, for example.

I've never said the Spurs expected to win a championship.

With respect to the cap flexibility they set that up to reshape the team around Duncan. If they landed a star, great. If not, then they can get what they 'need'.

Ghost told us the Spurs were not doing what it took to win a championship. He was wrong.

Good day.