Who is the best option ?

[duncan2150]

I think it's clear that the Spurs need a good inside guy for the future, Aldridge is done and poetl is a back up imo.

In next fa the spurs will have a lot of money with only a few teams who can offer a Max contract ( OKC, New York, Chicago, Charlotte...)

So who you got between those four ?

My order is Holmes/markannen/Drummond/Collins, i will argue after why I have this order.

[r0drig0lac]

Dre and Holmes are 5s, John and Lauri 4s 1- John 2- Lauri 3- Dre 4- Holmes

[duncan2150]

Dre and Holmes are 5s, John and Lauri 4s 1- John 2- Lauri 3- Dre 4- Holmes

I agree

Then you play poetl or another C alongside markannen or Collins ?

[Chinook]

Collins then Markkannen then Holmes then nothing then finally Drummond.

Collins is the best/most actualized and just feels like a really good fit with the guys already on the roster. He's obviously worth the max.

Markkannen is still more potential than production, but he might be acquirable if the team is willing to offer big money this summer or offer some value for him this season.

Holmes has been a center, and while Wood is doing well, the Spurs are already invested in a decent option there and could easily draft one soon. I think at his best, Holmes has been better than Poeltl usually is, but it's not consistent.

Nothing isn't ideal, but maybe they could sell cap space for assets? At least it's not them signing...

Drummond is an empty-stats player. Rebounding really does matter, but don't be fooled by talk that he's some winning player.

[r0drig0lac]

I agree

Then you play poetl or another C alongside markannen or Collins ?
this..
I think Jakob could work, I just don't know what the level of this team would be

[Dejounte]

You should have probably added a price tag on each. Richaun for the max is terrible compared to having John for the max. Richaun will likely be had for way under the max.

Lauri's garbage from the times I've seen him.

John's the best player of the bunch but would probably lock us in another cycle of mediocrity if he's one of your top paid players.

Richaun is good but at a certain price threshold.

Drummond would have to come really cheap for me to consider him.

If Tillman and Precious are getting solid minutes as rookies, not sure why we can't address that need in the draft.

[tbdog]

There not too many max bigs. The center position is down too jokic, Gobert, embid, towns off the top of my head. Is Collins naturally a 4?

[KobesAchilles]

I have seen zero Cavs games this year so I have no idea if Drummond is having a solid year. BUT I did see his highlight on Shaqtin a fool and that was enough for me to say no.

[Spur4ever]

I’d take Drummond. Give me 19 pts 15 reb 3 assist and 2 blocks on 49% shooting

[Degoat]

I like both Lauri and John Collins but I can’t see the spurs targeting them imo

[emanueldavidginobili]

I like Collins the most out of all them and he's the youngest of the bunch, but I've watched a couple Kings games this season and I really like what I've seen out of Holmes. LM has a lot of potential and can stretch the floor but injuries have really slowed him down.

Not a chance the Spurs land any of them tbh, but it is clear as day we need a big man and in a hurry. I don't even like Jakob as the future back up center never mind starting center. It's 2021 you have to at least be able to shoot and stretch the floor or at least be a junk yard dog and just be tough and unfortunately he's neither.

[TheGreatYacht]

Drummond for the max, easily. He’s the perfect center for this team, especially if both Murray and White start. The P&R between them would be just as fun to watch as the beautiful game. Teams wouldn’t know who to stay on. Stick your big to Drummond and Murray/White get an open lane.

To think that Cleveland got him for Brandon Knight, John Henson, and a 2nd round pick....



Also, I know I called Christian Wood being a stud back in 2018, but I’ve been a fan of Holmes for longer (2016)


Trade Kyle to Philly for Richaun Holmes. We got our backup 3

btw I was talking about Bertans here being our backup 3.

[BillMc]

Collins.

[ragas]

Draft Greg Brown and you have a Collins-type for less money and a better character. And make Markkanen an offer to get a shooting 5. He‘s not perfect, but shouldn’t cost that much. Low risk - if it works out: high reward.

[spurspl]

tough question, imo it strongly depends on $$. collins is the best player but its highly probable that two of the rest or one of them+olynyk would be available at the same prize.

[Dejounte]

Draft Greg Brown and you have a Collins-type for less money and a better character. And make Markkanen an offer to get a shooting 5. He‘s not perfect, but shouldn’t cost that much. Low risk - if it works out: high reward.

Agreed. People here are quick to give away money for instant gratification like I wonder how many car payments they have

[poopbox]

The more I watch Drummond play the more I like him but only if the price is cheap because why he does 3 things at an elite level, it is only 3 things, and he has more than 3 things he does at a very poor level.

Ideally it would be Collins at the 4 Allen at the 5

Then Collins at the 4 then Drummond at the 5

Then Collins at the 4 then Homes at the 5

Then Collins at the 4 Lauri at the 5

Then Lauri at the 4 then Holmes at the 5

[ragas]

Agreed. People here are quick to give away money for instant gratification like I wonder how many car payments they have

Plus: How would DJ and Derrick react to a max for a guy like Collins, while they both are way under 20 mill? That could go the wrong way. Collins is no star player who gets them over the hump. Why paying him the max? I think it's better to build a strong foundation and trade for a real star when someone is available. Or get lucky in the draft.

[ragas]

The more I watch Drummond play the more I like him but only if the price is cheap because why he does 3 things at an elite level, it is only 3 things, and he has more than 3 things he does at a very poor level.

Ideally it would be Collins at the 4 Allen at the 5

Then Collins at the 4 then Drummond at the 5

Then Collins at the 4 then Homes at the 5

Then Collins at the 4 Lauri at the 5

Then Lauri at the 4 then Holmes at the 5

Can they pay Collins & Allen/Drummond, if they want to extend Keldon, Lonnie & Devin after their rookie contracts? If they want one of Allen/Drummond they have to trade Poeltl, because it makes no sense to have him on the team then.

[Chinook]

Cap management is about opportunity cost. Folks acting like the Spurs should be worrying about moneyballing contracts seem to think of salary management like balancing a personal budget. The Spurs don't gain anything by being below the cap for multiple years. The team may or may not be able to draft a good PF, but that has no bearing on whether they should sign one in free agency. Having two good PFs and trading one is hardly the worst outcome on the planet.

Plus, no, guys who play like Collins aren't readily available. 20/10 players are relatively rare, especially when talking about stretch bigs with decent athleticism.

[Chinook]

Can they pay Collins & Allen/Drummond, if they want to extend Keldon, Lonnie & Devin after their rookie contracts? If they want one of Allen/Drummond they have to trade Poeltl, because it makes no sense to have him on the team then.

It's bad money to extend five smalls, so this scenario is a nothingburger to me. They can afford to completely use up their cap space and extend Walker or Johnson and then choose between Murray and Vassell in four years. And this is ignoring the possibility of trading any of the extended guys or Poeltl, which they absolutely should do for the sake of their long-term financial help.

[spurraider21]

Collins Drummond Holmes Lauri (don’t know lauri can play 5)

[ragas]

Cap management is about opportunity cost. Folks acting like the Spurs should be worrying about moneyballing contracts seem to think of salary management like balancing a personal budget. The Spurs don't gain anything by being below the cap for multiple years. The team may or may not be able to draft a good PF, but that has no bearing on whether they should sign one in free agency. Having two good PFs and trading one is hardly the worst outcome on the planet.

Plus, no, guys who play like Collins aren't readily available. 20/10 players are relatively rare, especially when talking about stretch bigs with decent athleticism.

You may be right, but I wouldn't pay him. He already demands more touches and got suspended last season. He definitely is not the character guy the Spurs normally prefer.

[Dejounte]

Cap management is about opportunity cost. Folks acting like the Spurs should be worrying about moneyballing contracts seem to think of salary management like balancing a personal budget. The Spurs don't gain anything by being below the cap for multiple years. The team may or may not be able to draft a good PF, but that has no bearing on whether they should sign one in free agency. Having two good PFs and trading one is hardly the worst outcome on the planet.

Plus, no, guys who play like Collins aren't readily available. 20/10 players are relatively rare, especially when talking about stretch bigs with decent athleticism.

"Below the cap for multiple years" is not the case. A couple of our players will be due for an extension and there's always free agency next year. Being below would apply for a year at most. No reason to blow our load this year.

Collins scoring 20 is mostly from the spacing he'll never get here but that's a separate topic.

[R. DeMurre]

Signing John Collins to a max just extends what the Spurs have had the past two seasons with DeRozan-- a highly paid, high usage rate guy as your #1 option, not setting the world on fire with defense, leading to slightly-better-than-average results-- a playoff spot without HCA, and an early exit. Collins and DeRozan together on the floor for 30+ mpg each in the future would guarantee the Spurs are not an elite or even average defensive team. I think there's a natural tendency when we hear 20/10 guy to think of Timmy, but Collins will never have the effect on winning that Timmy did. He won't even have a Manu level influence, and giving him the max only raises the statistical probability that the Spurs don't eventually max out a true max player.

[Chinook]

Signing John Collins to a max just extends what the Spurs have had the past two seasons with DeRozan-- a highly paid, high usage rate guy as your #1 option, not setting the world on fire with defense, leading to slightly-better-than-average results-- a playoff spot without HCA, and an early exit. Collins and DeRozan together on the floor for 30+ mpg each in the future would guarantee the Spurs are not an elite or even average defensive team. I think there's a natural tendency when we hear 20/10 guy to think of Timmy, but Collins will never have the effect on winning that Timmy did. He won't even have a Manu level influence, and giving him the max only raises the statistical probability that the Spurs don't eventually max out a true max player.

Why on Earth are you assuming DeRozan would be back?

And saying Collins isn't as good as Tim was is meaningless. He could be Al Jefferson with a three-point shot and still a tremendous get for the club.

[Leetonidas]

Easily Collins. If Spurs actually got him, and LMA/DD don't return in the summer, Spurs would actually have a pretty solid SL that can cover up his weakness on D. him and Poodle would be a decent starting FC

[mo7888]

All things being equal I like Collins, Lauri, Holmes, then Drummond but all things aren't equal. Collins is the only max guy on that list and I'd be willing to pay that for him but, if I could get Lauri at $18M per I'd rather have that than a max for Collins and use the difference elsewhere.

Slightly OT- I'd still love to get Woodard from Sacto because I believe he can swing between the 3 and 4 depending on lineup and really add depth for a cheap price.

[Dejounte]

Why on Earth are you assuming DeRozan would be back?

And saying Collins isn't as good as Tim was is meaningless. He could be Al Jefferson with a three-point shot and still a tremendous get for the club.

And having Al Jefferson would repeat the last three years. I think you missed his point. Marginally improving this team's floor and barely improving its ceiling is a recipe for disaster and a waste of time. Seems people are content with that.

[Dejounte]

Easily Collins. If Spurs actually got him, and LMA/DD don't return in the summer, Spurs would actually have a pretty solid SL that can cover up his weakness on D. him and Poodle would be a decent starting FC

Sorry but how can they cover up Collins' weakness on defense when they can't even do that for Aldridge?

[R. DeMurre]

Why on Earth are you assuming DeRozan would be back?

And saying Collins isn't as good as Tim was is meaningless. He could be Al Jefferson with a three-point shot and still a tremendous get for the club.

:lol You yourself have posted scenarios where resigning DeRozan makes sense... I'm not assuming anything. Simply pointing out that a pairing of those two would be less than optimal. I'll be happy to disagree with the idea of Al Jefferson + a three point shot being a tremendous get. He'd be worse at switching than Drummond.

[TD 21]

And having Al Jefferson would repeat the last three years. I think you missed his point. Marginally improving this team's floor and barely improving its ceiling is a recipe for disaster and a waste of time. Seems people are content with that.

I know you didn't make it, but Jefferson is a poor comp. Stoudemire is a better one.

Seems the Spurs are.



Sorry but how can they cover up Collins' weakness on defense when they can't even do that for Aldridge?

The trickle down effect: Poeltl, Collins, White and Johnson sliding down a position, would be replacing Aldridge, DeRozan, Walker and Johnson playing up a position, in the starting lineup.

Of course, Collins would play some small ball five minutes, in which they'd likely struggle mightily defensively.

[Leetonidas]

Sorry but how can they cover up Collins' weakness on defense when they can't even do that for Aldridge?

Poeltl starting next to him along with Murray/White/KJ. KJ is still improving but we know Murray and White are plus defenders and so is Jak. LMA is irrelevant in this discussion because Jak does not start next to to him and LMA is a slow fossil compared to Collins. Apples to oranges man

It's hard to cover up LMA because he is too old and slow to do anything but play C and he has fucking Derozan starting next to him at PF :lol

[Dejounte]

I know you didn't make it, but Jefferson is a poor comp. Stoudemire is a better one.

Seems the Spurs are.




The trickle down effect: Poeltl, Collins, White and Johnson sliding down a position, would be replacing Aldridge, DeRozan, Walker and Johnson playing up a position, in the starting lineup.

Of course, Collins would play some small ball five minutes, in which they'd likely struggle mightily defensively.

I suppose. I guess I'm only happy if the outcome includes signing or drafting a defensive ace behind Collins, thereby moving Collins up or down a position whenever the situation demands it. In that scenario, drafting a 3.5 would be ideal. Salivating over Franz Wagner right now, he would be the perfect fit. It's not like rookies start right away anyway. Fine, you got me.

Still have my doubts how Collins is a step towards contention though. The next few drafts will be critical in finding that first/second option if the current players on the roster aren't it.

[Chinook]

:lol You yourself have posted scenarios where resigning DeRozan makes sense... I'm not assuming anything. Simply pointing out that a pairing of those two would be less than optimal. I'll be happy to disagree with the idea of Al Jefferson + a three point shot being a tremendous get. He'd be worse at switching than Drummond.

You are judging a Collins signing based on his fit with DeRozan, when being able to sign Collins is pretty dependent on the team not re-signing DeRozan. It's a weird assumption.

And Jefferson with a modern shot chart is definitely better than Drummond.

[Chinook]

And having Al Jefferson would repeat the last three years. I think you missed his point. Marginally improving this team's floor and barely improving its ceiling is a recipe for disaster and a waste of time. Seems people are content with that.

"Repeating the last three years" isn't a bad thing. Being a solid playoff contender is fine. Being bad is not a prerequisite to being a contender. Collins would be the best player on the Spurs. Their ceiling with him is much higher than their ceiling without him.

[R. DeMurre]

You are judging a Collins signing based on his fit with DeRozan, when being able to sign Collins is pretty dependent on the team not re-signing DeRozan. It's a weird assumption.


No, I'm not. That's your assumption. I think Collins is a bad fit as the highest paid, highest usage rate guy-- similar to what DeRozan has been the last two years-- and it would only be that much worse with DeRozan still around. What happens with DeRozan wouldn't affect my view on Collins, but again, I'm 100% against resigning him, whereas you have posted numerous times about scenarios where resigning is a reasonable move.

[Chinook]

No, I'm not. That's your assumption.

Yes it is. You're the one who brought him into this by talking about his fit. Why not talk about his fit with Aldridge or Gay if you're just going to talk about old guys who could be re-signed? Blaming me for it doesn't make sense, because I haven't been talking about scenarios where re-signing DeMar AND signing big-name free agents make sense. It's not really workable financially and White's extension, which is why I haven't been assuming anything like that.


I'm 100% against resigning him, whereas you have posted numerous times about scenarios where resigning is a reasonable move.

Re-signing DeRozan can be a reasonable move, depending on what else they do during the rest of the year/off-season. He's still better than the other guys on the team, and the redundancy allows for the club to have options when making trades. I'm a huge proponent in them cleaning up the glut of wings they have, and I believe there are a lot of different ways to go about that. Letting DeRozan walk is part of a lot of them. Trading Murray, Walker, White or Johnson is a part of a lot of others. Deciding to make small-ball work is another potential route. My preference is to trade Murray or at least White, extend Walker and sign Collins unless they win the lotto and take some phenom PF. That gives them a strong SL, a manageable long-term cap and more assets to fill out their team. But I'm going to still talk about the numerous other ways they could do things because I'm not so arrogant as to believe that PATFO can only be right if they follow my plan.

[PrimeMinister]

Couple of things:

The Al Jefferson comp I don't like both for position and play style. Big Al was a post up first kind of guy who you called a post up for to get him going.

John Collins is an underrated player in his offensive positioning and ability to be a huge part of an offense without really having to call his number. He finds himself in the right place offensively routinely- he is always lurking and reading the defense even in off ball situations and he rarely seems to be resigned to sitting in the corner or away from the action. Not to say he hogs the ball, because he doesnt, in fact he is decisive and quick in deciding what read he wants to take from the defense. He's the type of player that can get you 20 points on dump off passes from getting himself open and cutting at the right time, but he's also able to face it up and create for himself when necessary. He has a ton of versatility and is a natural letting the game come to him and picking his spots.

Comparing him defensively to LA doesn't do justice to how terrible Lamarcus is at this point on that end. Collins at least has the same benefit of athleticism, to an even higher degree, that Lamarcus used to have that allowed him to recover and make up for his poor defensive positioning. He is an adequate help defender at the 4 position and has the explosiveness to contest shots effectively at the rim. He's naturally a 4 that is comfortable playing next to a 5- we're seeing how he can fit next to a player like Poeltl in the minutes he gets with Clint capela. In the right situations he has the versatility to slide over to the 5 and that flexibility would give us a lot of intriguing options. DJ/White/Vassell/Keldon/Collins for example has the potential to be a death line up that could give a lot, a lot of teams trouble. You can switch everywhere, have capable rebounders at every position, the right mix of scoring and defense. Obviously that is a situation dependent line up- but we are in desperate need of versatile bigs who can stretch the floor, move their feet, roll to the basket, and switch against teams like the Warriors who are super fast and heavy on screen action.

Collins was my project to watch this year and he has blown away what I thought he was and could be for our team.

[R. DeMurre]

Re-signing DeRozan can be a reasonable move, depending on what else they do during the rest of the year/off-season. He's still better than the other guys on the team, and the redundancy allows for the club to have options when making trades. I'm a huge proponent in them cleaning up the glut of wings they have, and I believe there are a lot of different ways to go about that. Letting DeRozan walk is part of a lot of them. Trading Murray, Walker, White or Johnson is a part of a lot of others. Deciding to make small-ball work is another potential route. My preference is to trade Murray or at least White, extend Walker and sign Collins unless they win the lotto and take some phenom PF. That gives them a strong SL, a manageable long-term cap and more assets to fill out their team. But I'm going to still talk about the numerous other ways they could do things because I'm not so arrogant as to believe that PATFO can only be right if they follow my plan.

If that's what you truly believe, than fine-- have fun with that. Resigning DeRozan blocks any path to a future championship-- that's my opinion. His solid record of playing on teams for more than a decade who are better with him off the floor than on seems pretty irrefutable to me, and this year so far his negative impact is even greater than usual. The negative effect is magnified in the playoffs, where DeRozan boasts an almost unheard of entirely negative chart for every single playoff year he's been involved in, as opposing coaches target him to an even greater degree than they do during the regular season. The only reason to keep DeRozan is entirely a sentimental one, and as far as sentiment goes, I'd rather return him to his hometown of L.A. and let him enjoy that.

[Chinook]

I think DeRozan has limitations and that there are scenarios where SA could move on and improve. But I think he gets way too little credit and way too much blame for the Spurs' performance on this forum. He gets blamed for his offense while Murray and Johnson get praise for being worse versions of him on offense. He gets blamed for his defense when Walker has been way worse for most of his time on the court this year. He gets blamed for his on-court theatrics, and I definitely agree that he's unreasonably bad there, but I don't think there are a lot of legit high-culture guys on the roster at all right now.

The Spurs should stand to actually build around some of their players instead of piling guys into lineups and using antiquated adjustments to try to make it work. The amoeba offense is very bad for long-term growth. At best, it covers up the obvious half-court weaknesses, but I'd argue not a single player is maximized under it. In the very least, Pop should not have run this offense without trading Aldridge and DeRozan. If you can't build a system to use them well, then there's no point in keeping them. Then at least you could argue that this offense would let them see what they have in the guys in terms of creation so that in a more structured future year, they could set up the option hierarchy.

[Chinook]

The point of the Al Jefferson comparison was pretty much a worst-case scenario. Dude was pretty much only a 20/10 guy with no other redeeming qualities. Without a three, there's no way Jefferson would average that now, so I added in to get him to be a bare-minimum guy. My point was that even such a player is valuable and relatively rare in today's league. Collins is significantly more mobile defensively and dynamic offensively. That's why he'd fit in well with the young players already on the team.

[Dejounte]

I think DeRozan has limitations and that there are scenarios where SA could move on and improve. But I think he gets way too little credit and way too much blame for the Spurs' performance on this forum. He gets blamed for his offense while Murray and Johnson get praise for being worse versions of him on offense. He gets blamed for his defense when Walker has been way worse for most of his time on the court this year. He gets blamed for his on-court theatrics, and I definitely agree that he's unreasonably bad there, but I don't think there are a lot of legit high-culture guys on the roster at all right now.

The Spurs should stand to actually build around some of their players instead of piling guys into lineups and using antiquated adjustments to try to make it work. The amoeba offense is very bad for long-term growth. At best, it covers up the obvious half-court weaknesses, but I'd argue not a single player is maximized under it. In the very least, Pop should not have run this offense without trading Aldridge and DeRozan. If you can't build a system to use them well, then there's no point in keeping them. Then at least you could argue that this offense would let them see what they have in the guys in terms of creation so that in a more structured future year, they could set up the option hierarchy.

Murray and Johnson hardly do the same thing as DeMar. Makes me question if you actually watch the games. It's obvious the ball sticks with DeMar than it does with any other player. The other players you mentioned are quicker to act with the ball and do their move than DeMar ever does. What the fuck are you watching?

Early on the season, it was different. Seems he reverted back to selfish basketball.

[Chinook]

Murray and Johnson hardly do the same thing as DeMar. Makes me question if you actually watch the games. It's obvious the ball sticks with DeMar than it does with any other player. The other players you mentioned are quicker to act with the ball and do their move than DeMar ever does. What the fuck are you watching?

Early on the season, it was different. Seems he reverted back to selfish basketball.

"The ball sticking" is a really unimportant, subjective analysis. DeRozan plays at a slower pace than Murray, but they both break off possessions to iso at a similar rate. DeJounte leads the team in unassisted-shot percentage. DeRozan is right behind him, but he's still below him, and DeMar's assist percentage is higher than Murray's, so there's no real evidence that he fails to pass. DMDR is the best offensive player on the team, so if the ball is going to stick, it should be with him. That doesn't mean that I don't want them to pass it, but offenses work by leveraging hard shots by the best scorers to make opportunities for the role-players. Sometimes folks are going to need to iso, and when that happens, it should be the better scorer.

I'm not going to comment on whether DeRozan has gotten more selfish statistically. That's harder to quantify without snapshots of his number at various points in the year. What the numbers we have right now suggest is that Murray has gotten/taken a first-option suite of touches, and DeRozan has been the 1A/second option. Everyone else on the team has been assisted on more than 50 percent of their makes (even Johnson, and that's a different discussion worth having). Trying to pretend like DeRozan is some ball-hog and Murray isn't doesn't really fly.

[Robz4000]

Don't particularly want any of them honestly, much less for the max.

[SpurSpike]

What about Montrezl Harrell or Serge Ibaka? They will both have player options next year i think, maybe the Spurs could lure one to come over? Both would be great additions.

Ibaka is not afraid to abuse nephew both physically (bloody mouth) and mentally (eating penis) so id take him just on that tbh.

Harrell may not be happy where he is at. Would be just what the Spurs need especially if Spurs can teach him some defense. He had a strange tweet recently saying “Money don’t bring happiness, you can’t buy a piece of mind and love!” he had other tweets saying how he is in the best shape of his life maybe a bit of self advertising to other teams?

[Chinook]

For me, if the year were to end right now, it'd be Collins for the max, Markkannen on a speculative deal and then using the space to take back bad money for assets. I don't really have any interest in also-rans with the way the young guys are playing right now. They aren't in a place where you worry about filling in the cracks around them with vets.

[TD 21]

I suppose. I guess I'm only happy if the outcome includes signing or drafting a defensive ace behind Collins, thereby moving Collins up or down a position whenever the situation demands it. In that scenario, drafting a 3.5 would be ideal. Salivating over Franz Wagner right now, he would be the perfect fit. It's not like rookies start right away anyway. Fine, you got me.

Still have my doubts how Collins is a step towards contention though. The next few drafts will be critical in finding that first/second option if the current players on the roster aren't it.

Poeltl is basically what you're describing. His defensive metrics probably wouldn't be as good playing more and primarily against front line players, but he'll probably top out as a mid-high 20s mpg player due to a combination of foul trouble, lack of stamina and relative limitations.

Definitely the more ideal modern four is the elusive 3.5, which would still be a need, just one more likely to be filled with a lesser profile one.

I do too, but he checks enough boxes to make me think he could be their number one target.

[poopbox]

Can they pay Collins & Allen/Drummond, if they want to extend Keldon, Lonnie & Devin after their rookie contracts? If they want one of Allen/Drummond they have to trade Poeltl, because it makes no sense to have him on the team then.

Devin should not even be brought up when we talk about money. He is in year 1 of a 4 year deal. So he won't even be up for a contract until guys like Murray and White deals are up. Same with Keldon, he is in year 2 of a 4 year rookie deal...so long way to go. What we pay these guys in the future should have exactly 0 bearing on what we would pay any player we sign in free agency.

The most expensive of the options is Collins with Allen because they are both still very young players with a lot of upside with a salary cap that post covid is going to probably skyrocket. Collins might truly get a max and Allen mike command in the 18 to 21 range a year.

Drummond and Holmes can be had for cheap. They are the players they are. There is not hidden skill or talent or upside to get out of them. They won't command top dollar. It would be more about if they want to play here and play in the role.

It's hard to get a read on what it would cost to get Lauri. Not a possible max like Collins but if he finished the season strong all it takes is for somebody to start throwing around Dirk comparisons and all of a sudden it might take closer to a max to get Lauri than one would like.

It might legit take a max offer to get Collins because anot

[mo7888]

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/three-trade-targets-for-the-new-york-knicks-to-pursue/

I thought this article would be relevant to the discussion. It is just the authors opinion that NY should target Collins now by trade instead of the offseason. It might be relevant to our options going forward as well..

[poopbox]

I suppose. I guess I'm only happy if the outcome includes signing or drafting a defensive ace behind Collins, thereby moving Collins up or down a position whenever the situation demands it. In that scenario, drafting a 3.5 would be ideal. Salivating over Franz Wagner right now, he would be the perfect fit. It's not like rookies start right away anyway. Fine, you got me.

Still have my doubts how Collins is a step towards contention though. The next few drafts will be critical in finding that first/second option if the current players on the roster aren't it.

I mean with all the young players on this team draft picks are going to be less and less valuable, especially when you factor in the law of averages. Do you know how man teams in the history of the nba have signed 5 consecutive 1st round picks to a second contract ? The answer is 0. So this tells you that between Dejounte, White, Walker, Luka, Keldon, and Vassell, one of these guys is not going to be on the team past their rookie deal just because it's hard to get that many players who play for you to want to keep playing for you. We know Dejounte and Derrick are going to be around, so now we are down to one of those 4 not being here in the next 2 to 4 years. Putting more emphasis on the draft just turns that number from 4 to 5. Off the top of my head is there another team in the nba who even has it's last 6 first round picks on its team ? I can't imagine that answer to be yes except for maybe the Hawks.

[Dejounte]

I mean with all the young players on this team draft picks are going to be less and less valuable, especially when you factor in the law of averages. Do you know how man teams in the history of the nba have signed 5 consecutive 1st round picks to a second contract ? The answer is 0. So this tells you that between Dejounte, White, Walker, Luka, Keldon, and Vassell, one of these guys is not going to be on the team past their rookie deal just because it's hard to get that many players who play for you to want to keep playing for you. We know Dejounte and Derrick are going to be around, so now we are down to one of those 4 not being here in the next 2 to 4 years. Putting more emphasis on the draft just turns that number from 4 to 5. Off the top of my head is there another team in the nba who even has it's last 6 first round picks on its team ? I can't imagine that answer to be yes except for maybe the Hawks.

Another way the Spurs can trailblaze. They have been the first for many things, why not this one? I think it's possible, especially if you can keep their ego in check and have them believe in the Spurs way.

[Dejounte]

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/three-trade-targets-for-the-new-york-knicks-to-pursue/

I thought this article would be relevant to the discussion. It is just the authors opinion that NY should target Collins now by trade instead of the offseason. It might be relevant to our options going forward as well..

I don't follow the Knicks, but can someone explain why they don't see Randle as their long-term forward?

[Dejounte]

"The ball sticking" is a really unimportant, subjective analysis. DeRozan plays at a slower pace than Murray, but they both break off possessions to iso at a similar rate. DeJounte leads the team in unassisted-shot percentage. DeRozan is right behind him, but he's still below him, and DeMar's assist percentage is higher than Murray's, so there's no real evidence that he fails to pass. DMDR is the best offensive player on the team, so if the ball is going to stick, it should be with him. That doesn't mean that I don't want them to pass it, but offenses work by leveraging hard shots by the best scorers to make opportunities for the role-players. Sometimes folks are going to need to iso, and when that happens, it should be the better scorer.

I'm not going to comment on whether DeRozan has gotten more selfish statistically. That's harder to quantify without snapshots of his number at various points in the year. What the numbers we have right now suggest is that Murray has gotten/taken a first-option suite of touches, and DeRozan has been the 1A/second option. Everyone else on the team has been assisted on more than 50 percent of their makes (even Johnson, and that's a different discussion worth having). Trying to pretend like DeRozan is some ball-hog and Murray isn't doesn't really fly.

DeMar passing is not the issue. It's easy to gain an assist when you hold onto the ball until the last second to pass it to the next player. It's him handling the ball for as long as he does that's the issue. It's not fine that the ball should stick with him all because he's the best offensive player. There's ways to generate points without needing to rely on a single good offensive player, especially when other players can't gain rhythm and plays worse as a result of said player not passing the ball around. I never disagreed with him going ISO, that's his game and he should do it. It's about finding the right balance to do so, which he was on the right track until the last three games or so. Looking at assist percentages in this context is pointless.

For the first four games of the season:

DeMar averaged 43.5 passes per game (not assists)

For the last four games of the season:

DeMar averaged 32.5 passes per game (not assists)

That is a big drop off and shows his selfish play.

[Chinook]

DeMar passing is not the issue. It's easy to gain an assist when you hold onto the ball until the last second to pass it to the next player. It's him handling the ball for as long as he does that's the issue. It's not fine that the ball should stick with him all because he's the best offensive player. There's ways to generate points without needing to rely on a single good offensive player, especially when other players can't gain rhythm and plays worse as a result of said player not passing the ball around. I never disagreed with him going ISO, that's his game and he should do it. It's about finding the right balance to do so, which he was on the right track until the last three games or so. Looking at assist percentages in this context is pointless.

For the first four games of the season:

DeMar averaged 43.5 passes per game (not assists)

For the last four games of the season:

DeMar averaged 32.5 passes per game (not assists)

That is a big drop off and shows his selfish play.

Eh. Murray in that same range is leading the team in touches by a wide margin has had the worst PPP of any player on the team. Can DeRozan pass more? I guess. But Murray is totally the one who's dominating the ball, using possessions and doing little with them. Maybe the reason why guys can't get into rhythm is that they are watching one guy hold the ball too long and the other rush up bad shots. And DeJounte has been holding the ball a lot too. Passes or not, he's up to almost five seconds per touch too. Him, DMDR and Patty have all used a lot of clock with the ball. That's not surprising given the lack of structure of the offense and the personalities of the guys with the ball.

This whole conversation started off because I said that folks blame DeRozan for things the other guys are also doing. I think the subsequent discussion has highlighted this. You looked at the same stats that I did, saw Murray being a closer second to DeRozan in this usage stats than any third is to them and still only mentioned the stat that made DeRozan seem like "the problem". My point was never that one group is completely at fault or whatever. It's that the offense right now encourages this inefficient play and that folks should be more objective in how they view what we are watching rather than thinking one player is responsible for it. All of this is on Pop for calling the game he is and what he's telling them to do.

[spurraider21]

Signing John Collins to a max just extends what the Spurs have had the past two seasons with DeRozan-- a highly paid, high usage rate guy as your #1 option, not setting the world on fire with defense, leading to slightly-better-than-average results-- a playoff spot without HCA, and an early exit. Collins and DeRozan together on the floor for 30+ mpg each in the future would guarantee the Spurs are not an elite or even average defensive team. I think there's a natural tendency when we hear 20/10 guy to think of Timmy, but Collins will never have the effect on winning that Timmy did. He won't even have a Manu level influence, and giving him the max only raises the statistical probability that the Spurs don't eventually max out a true max player.
i'd agree that a collins signing would suck if paired with a derozan re-signing. but im ok with a post-derozan spurs :lol

[duncan2150]

I really enjoy reading all those posts.

A few things : if we could nagg our future inside guy during the draft, im the first who would be happy but we don't have any clue about next year draft. Using Cap space for a Big is a more likely option than drafting mobley for example.

So my board is :

Holmes :cheaper, the real complement for this team. On offense he will take what is coming and He will give you what the spurs need a lot : blocks, hustle, energy, rebounds...

Then I have markannen, he is the best potential of that list imo.
He is really mobile, good shooter. I really like his ceilling offensively.

Collins who is on the same page with markannen. I like him but for the max, im not totally sure.

And last Drummond, I think he would be a Nice option but he may want to be the centerpiece of the team and that could be a little bad for our youth.

[mo7888]

I don't follow the Knicks, but can someone explain why they don't see Randle as their long-term forward?

I think because they see him as an undersized 5

[TheGreatYacht]

Drummond is about to have giant game against the Nets. Can’t believe he’s not leading this poll bigly. Most disrespected big in the league, even more than Vucevic.

[r0drig0lac]

I think because they see him as an undersized 5
nah, this article definitely has nothing to do with reality inside the front office, just conjectures based on nothing, I really doubt that the knicks get rid of one of the most versatile players in the world, mainly because nobody sees or saw him as a center .

[paperboy77]

No doubt Collins is worth the money. Not sure of his contract status but I'd go all in. Hell give them LA and JP + a first.... who cares.

WTF is up with Kelden? Another air-ball?

[paperboy77]

Actually thought you were meaning the best option in crunch-time for SA.

[poopbox]

Drummond is about to have giant game against the Nets. Can’t believe he’s not leading this poll bigly. Most disrespected big in the league, even more than Vucevic.

Yeah like I said the more I watch him the more I like him. His rebounding and just raw power around the rim is giving every team enormous problems. You almost have to concede a layup to any guard the cavs have because if you take one step to many to challenge it they just either lob it or shuffle it to Drummond and its either a layup dunk or foul.

19 and 16 in 27 minutes. Nets have more basketball talent but they do not have anyone on their team who can remotely stop Drummond from dominating around the rim. If the nets and cavs played a 7 game series starting on monday the cavs might win that series and it might not even be that hard since they have a guy who the other team can't guard physically, can't keep off the glass, can't really take advantage of in the pick and roll for some reason...

Just a total nightmare matchup for them. Deandre Jordan isn't going to get it done for them as the only defensive big they have. They need to make some other roster moves, cause if they have to run into Philly with Embiid playing like the best version of himself they are going to be in trouble.

[r0drig0lac]

Yeah like I said the more I watch him the more I like him. His rebounding and just raw power around the rim is giving every team enormous problems. You almost have to concede a layup to any guard the cavs have because if you take one step to many to challenge it they just either lob it or shuffle it to Drummond and its either a layup dunk or foul.

19 and 16 in 27 minutes. Nets have more basketball talent but they do not have anyone on their team who can remotely stop Drummond from dominating around the rim. If the nets and cavs played a 7 game series starting on monday the cavs might win that series and it might not even be that hard since they have a guy who the other team can't guard physically, can't keep off the glass, can't really take advantage of in the pick and roll for some reason...

Just a total nightmare matchup for them. Deandre Jordan isn't going to get it done for them as the only defensive big they have. They need to make some other roster moves, cause if they have to run into Philly with Embiid playing like the best version of himself they are going to be in trouble.

he is one of the greatest screeners and rebounders in basketball history, obviously he would be an update on anything we have today on the frontcourt.

[R. DeMurre]

I'd love to see what Richaun Holmes does with teammates who actually help him on defense & elsewhere. Right now, he's the only starter on the Kings that doesn't have a negative defensive rating:

DBPM

Holmes: 0.0
Fox: -1.4
Hield: -2.2
Barnes: -1.5
Bagley: -3.1

Generally speaking, he's by far the most effective player on the Kings:

WS/48 (League average is about 0.10)

Holmes: .164
Fox: .056
Hield: -.020
Barnes: .088
Bagley: .001

OnCourt +/- per 100 possessions:

Holmes: +0.3
Fox: -7.1
Hield: -9.0
Barnes: -5.8
Bagley: -10.4

The fact that he's even able to have a positive On Floor +/- # at all is a small miracle, considering the numbers of the four other starters on the team. His # for On/Off court +/- per 100 poss is +21.5, which is insane. The Kings are 6-10, which is pretty impressive, considering Holmes is the only starter with an overall positive impact.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC/2021.html