Would you trade Lonnie Walker and Luka Samanic for John Collins?

[Dejounte]

https://www.sportstalkatl.com/hawks-report-teams-still-eyeing-john-collins-as-a-trade-target/

Seems like the only trade that makes sense for both teams.

It works in the ESPN trade machine : http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine

Keep in mind, other teams have to get some sort of value back.

Post-trade (before the 2020-2021 season ends):

PG: Murray/ White/ Tre
SG: Vassell/ Mills/ Q
SF: DeMar/ Keldon/ KBD
PF: Collins/ Gay/ Lyles
C: Aldridge/ Poetl/ Eubanks

[Dejounte]

Only reason I see a trade centering around Lonnie for Atlanta not working out is if Atlanta sees Lonnie yielding a max contract when his contract ends. If Lonnie does, then this trade makes no sense because the only reason they'd part with Collins probably is because they can't afford him.

[r0drig0lac]

makes sense for SA (if they think John might be their future PF), but it doesn't make sense for Atlanta

[XDT76]

Why not wait for off season and offer him a contract. In this way we might be able to keep Lonnie and see how Luka turns out.

[Dejounte]

Why not wait for off season and offer him a contract. In this way we might be able to keep Lonnie and see how Luka turns out.

Because they probably already know they won't pay him the max and they don't want to lose him for nothing? Put yourself in their shoes and not as a Spurs fan.

[Dejounte]

makes sense for SA (if they think John might be their future PF), but it doesn't make sense for Atlanta

What makes sense for Atlanta?

[GAustex]

Putting White behind Murray
Joke

[r0drig0lac]

What makes sense for Atlanta?

taking into account that they are in win mode now and already have depth in the guard/combo guard slot, certainly Walker doesn't, probably other teams would have better packages to offer, so the best chance for SA would be Collins free agent really wishing to play for Pop.

[rah88sa]

As much as I love Lonnie I'd make this trade. Collins is a surefire starter/closer and I just don't see Lonnie's BBIQ being enough to start/finish games over our other guards.

[Dejounte]

taking into account that they are in win mode now and already have depth in the guard/combo guard slot, certainly Walker doesn't, probably other teams would have better packages to offer, so the best chance for SA would be Collins free agent really wishing to play for Pop.

So your answer is hoping Atlanta won't go after the better packages other teams would offer and instead let Collins go for nothing in free agency? Best chance for SA, bad choice for ATL. If Collins' agent was adamant about going to SA, then you'd figure they would find a third time to work with who would take Lonnie. If ATL didn't care about Collins' request to go to SA, they would just go for the best package available.

Also, sending ATL promising players like Lonnie while making sure the salaries match up is going to be very difficult for any team. Which other teams have players on their roster who are still on their rookie contract (and worthwhile enough for Atlanta to trade for) that they'd be willing to depart with for Collins?

[JuneJive]

Collins is not worth it.

But if ATL chooses not to match SAS offer, that's a different story.

[r0drig0lac]

So your answer is hoping Atlanta won't go after the better packages other teams would offer and instead let Collins go for nothing in free agency? Best chance for SA, bad choice for ATL. If Collins' agent was adamant about going to SA, then you'd figure they would find a third time to work with who would take Lonnie. If ATL didn't care about Collins' request to go to SA, they would just go for the best package available.

Also, sending ATL promising players like Lonnie while making sure the salaries match up is going to be very difficult for any team. Which other teams have players on their roster who are still on their rookie contract (and worthwhile enough for Atlanta to trade for) that they'd be willing to depart with for Collins?

for the thread question? it would be clearly yes, because it would be a steal for SA (looking at the current level of the players, where NO ONE can guarantee an upside of any of them), looking at the question about both perspectives? undoubtedly, it would be the ONLY way for SA to receive Collins.

ps: obviously looking at the hypothetically offered package, but they would probably accept something like Keldon + Walker / Murray easily.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

If Collins is their main target for the cap space and they're OK paying him the max or near that then yes, I'd do it. But if they're not prepared to give him the max then it's a bad idea. He may not be worth it but some team will give it to him.

[Dejounte]

Collins is not worth it.

But if ATL chooses not to match SAS offer, that's a different story.

If Collins is SA's plan A all along and their master plan, you would figure they would do everything possible to secure Collins. Otherwise, their plan B would look pale in comparison and probably would be a big drop off.

But then again, these are the Spurs we know, and they tend to not get hung up on their losses and they know to remain flexible for the next opportunity. The Spurs are like master poker players. Low risk turtle-like moves, and they only play their hand when they have 0% chance of losing.

[mo7888]

That's a tough one... I go back and forth on Collins.. I'm just not sold and when I watched him play last night Hunter was the one that kept catching my eye. He looked like a better stronger 4... Collins is better than anything we've got but giving up assets just to max him out seems questionable.... if I had back channel info from his agent that he'd take $25M instead of a max I'd do it though.

[Leetonidas]

I'd prefer to try and sign him in FA and if ATL matches the offer then work out a S&T since iirc their max would be higher than SA's...but I would definitely trade Walker and Samanic for Collins. Lonnie has talent but imo he is too passive to ever really maximize it. Samanic is nothing at this point. So basically trading a solid role player + an unknown young player for a 20/10 player at a position of need? Yes all day

[exstatic]

I would have done it last offseason, but no matter what, Collins is a RFA this offseason. I’d rather go after him in free agency. Seems like there are some things in our favor. I think there may be a window to do an extend and trade next summer, and I’d probably do that. Do not want to expend assets without being able to lock him up first.

[The Truth #6]

I would have done it last offseason, but no matter what, Collins is a RFA this offseason. I’d rather go after him in free agency. Seems like there are some things in our favor. I think there may be a window to do an extend and trade next summer, and I’d probably do that. Do not want to expend assets without being able to lock him up first.

I agree. And that is why I don’t see the team making a trade for him now. Also, I don’t think they have given up on Luka yet.

[Degoat]

Kinda hard to imagine ATL doing that, Deandre Hunter has looked really good this year, and they have cam Reddish and Bogdan Bogdanovich at the wings, if the spurs threw in a 1st round pick they might do it but spurs wouldn’t imo

[John B]

Why when you could try to get Collins in the FA? And still keep Lonnie and Luka, who might still turn out good to great players, nobody knows. What's the rush?

[look_at_g_shred]

Some front office with the gall will trade for him but it won't be the spurs. I really want Collins and i would do this trade in a second but my gut is that SA has no interest in him. At least that is what i'm telling myself so i won't be disappointed when he signs else where.

[Spursfanfromafar]

If Collins commits to staying with the Spurs, I would go for it.

[Degoat]

Not to be a naysayer, I want Collins too but watch the hawks and kings just flip John Collins for Bagley or something

[Dejounte]

Why when you could try to get Collins in the FA? And still keep Lonnie and Luka, who might still turn out good to great players, nobody knows. What's the rush?

Because Atlanta could very well trade him by the deadline to get value.

Spurs fans want to gain something without giving up something. This is not a dream world.

It's not hard, guys.

[KingKev]

If Collins gets moved at the deadline there is less chance he will be available come offseason as that team has given up assets knowing he will cost the max to retain and prepared to offer it. That adds more competition because as it stands now only a handful of teams can throw the max at him this offseason: SA, maybe TO if they get creative, NYC, Chicago, Charlotte, Cleveland. Not great options there... a mid season trade brings in potentially more attractive options than joining the Spurs who could compete with the teams above but still has few actual selling points as an organization outside of max contract and starting role.

[The Truth #6]

Because Atlanta could very well trade him by the deadline to get value.

Spurs fans want to gain something without giving up something. This is not a dream world.

It's not hard, guys.

But isn't that how the Spurs FO operates? You seem to be holding fans (granted, many are idiots) to a set of principles the team itself doesn't seem to operate under. I don't see them wanting to trade two of their 1st round picks when they reasonably would rather wait. That's what the Spurs do. They wait. And wait.

[Dejounte]

But isn't that how the Spurs FO operates? You seem to be holding fans (granted, many are idiots) to a set of principles the team itself doesn't seem to operate under. I don't see them wanting to trade two of their 1st round picks when they reasonably would rather wait. That's what the Spurs do. They wait. And wait.

I argue this is a false point. The team does make trades when they feel extremely confident the return will be a net positive. They are just very selective when it comes to this, hence why it is so rare. You just have to look at the George Hill trade for Kawhi.


Like I said, the Spurs are master poker players. It's a matter of how much they view Collins as a major part of their future. With Spurs fans, it's a matter of me asking how badly they want Collins on this team. From half of these responses, it does not seem like they want Collins badly enough.

[LeBowen]

No.

Giving Collins a max in the summer would be an overpay, but I could get behind it.
Giving Collins a max and giving up two young players in the process? No way.

[The Truth #6]

I argue this is a false point. The team does make trades when they feel extremely confident the return will be a net positive. They are just very selective when it comes to this, hence why it is so rare. You just have to look at the George Hill trade for Kawhi. Like I said, the Spurs are master poker players.

I don't think anything you said bolsters your argument. If anything, regarding the Kawhi trade: 1) that was about 7 years ago, and 2) it was a complete anomaly, and 3) that was to draft a player, not trade for someone.

Also, as for being master poker players, I don't see the team at all putting their chips in on John Collins without at least assurances he would resign (which perhaps would be tampering). Again, I think their choice would be to not rush, see how the season plays out, and assess their options in the offseason. I think that's their version of poker: never get fleeced. I think that evidenced itself when they fielded trade offers for Halliburton.

If it was to trade DD or LA, then I could see them doing that.

[KingKev]

I’m not convinced the Spurs even have Collins on their radar. This off season will be focused on re-upping DDR/Patty and adding a few more borderline washed vets while bringing in an unknown euro or guy playing overseas. PATFO is too arrogant to pay a guy like Collins 30m when they think they can home grow something similiar or get a euro scrub who costs 10% the price and does 20% of the job.

[Dejounte]

I don't think anything you said bolsters your argument. If anything, regarding the Kawhi trade: 1) that was about 7 years ago, and 2) it was a complete anomaly, and 3) that was to draft a player, not trade for someone.

Also, as for being master poker players, I don't see the team at all putting their chips in on John Collins without at least assurances he would resign (which perhaps would be tampering). Again, I think their choice would be to not rush, see how the season plays out, and assess their options in the offseason. I think that's their version of poker: never get fleeced. I think that evidenced itself when they fielded trade offers for Halliburton.

If it was to trade DD or LA, then I could see them doing that.

1) that was about 7 years ago,

​Yes, and? They have hardly changed their philosophies.

and 2) it was a complete anomaly,

Can't say it was an anomaly and not explain why.

and 3) that was to draft a player, not trade for someone.

Not sure how this changes anything. A player you bring in during free agency or trade brings the same risk (See: DeMarre Carroll, Marcus Morris) as someone who is an unknown from the draft.

[look_at_g_shred]

1) that was about 7 years ago,

​Yes, and? They have hardly changed their philosophies.

and 2) it was a complete anomaly,

Can't say it was an anomaly and not explain why.

and 3) that was to draft a player, not trade for someone.

Not sure how this changes anything. A player you bring in during free agency or trade brings the same risk (See: DeMarre Carroll, Marcus Morris) as someone who is an unknown from the draft.
It was actually a decade ago. 10 years. June 2011

[The Truth #6]

1) that was about 7 years ago,

​Yes, and? They have hardly changed their philosophies.

and 2) it was a complete anomaly,

Can't say it was an anomaly and not explain why.

and 3) that was to draft a player, not trade for someone.

Not sure how this changes anything. A player you bring in during free agency or trade brings the same risk (See: DeMarre Carroll, Marcus Morris) as someone who is an unknown from the draft.

Good catch. My memory was off. 10 years ago. Perhaps my memory is off again, but I can't remember another trade of that stature since then, which is why I consider it an anomaly, meaning not their normal way of doing things. The takeaway was from this Summer is that the FO simply can not put a trade together/or no one wants to trade with them/or they aren't sure on the rules of how to do it. Being sarcastic, but that was the consensus on the forum.

As for why I think drafting is different, is because they pay less for the player and they know the player is locked up for several years. The scenario with trading for John Collins right now doesn't offer that sort of safety, which is what I would think they covet. They trust their development process, and so I think they prefer to draft players and work them up, which is another reason they wouldn't want to give up on Lonnie and Luka already.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

A resounding yes

[poopbox]

Yep. Easier to keep Collins if we trade for him first. Also by virtue of getting Collins Luka becomes useless since we both need them to do the same thing and play the same way, and at least right now collins is the far superior player at doing that.

I also think Lonnie is the least likely to sign a second contract, so this is a no brainer trade

[Atl Spur]

https://www.sportstalkatl.com/hawks-report-teams-still-eyeing-john-collins-as-a-trade-target/

Seems like the only trade that makes sense for both teams.

It works in the ESPN trade machine : http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine

Keep in mind, other teams have to get some sort of value back.

Post-trade (before the 2020-2021 season ends):

PG: Murray/ White/ Tre
SG: Vassell/ Mills/ Q
SF: DeMar/ Keldon/ KBD
PF: Collins/ Gay/ Lyles
C: Aldridge/ Poetl/ Eubanks



Way to early give up on them when you don’t have to.

[RD2191]

OP is a huge faggot.

[Dejounte]

OP is a huge faggot.

Kiss me then

[KingKev]

OP is a huge faggot.

Great take. This is a thought provoking and realistic scenario. Grown minds only
please.

[Chinook]

Way to early give up on them when you don’t have to.

This is what's frustrating. The point of this thread is trading for Collins. "Giving up" on Walker or Samanic has nothing to do with it. If you're only willing to trade guys you don't think can help your team, you're never going to be able to get anything. The reality is that SA should only have like two or three guys as unavailable. Who of those guys are on that list is debatable, but everyone else has to be moveable for the right price. Ultimately, the team doesn't have enough talent right now, and they aren't going to be able to just draft that talent or sign it in free agency. Part of rebuilding is making smart trades to improve your long-term position, and while I agree it's debatable about what price is worth it, it's hard to argue that getting a young talented scoring big like Collins isn't a step in the right direction.

This isn't my favorite proposal out there. I'd like to at least see a DeRozan trade if this deal were to happen, since the Spurs can't afford to both play small and have this many mouths to feed in the SL. But there's a ton of value in having Collins' hold and the balance of the cap space to make another couple of moves. The roster could definitely end up looking really good going into next year. I like the odds of them grabbing a bench scorer and back-up bigs in free agency than them snagging a starting four and having everyone develop to be good long-term role-players.

[exstatic]

Because Atlanta could very well trade him by the deadline to get value.

Spurs fans want to gain something without giving up something. This is not a dream world.

It's not hard, guys.

It apparently is. ATL won’t get value, because no one is going all in on a RFA.

[r0drig0lac]

The reality is that SA should only have like two or three guys as unavailable. Who of those guys are on that list is debatable,
agree

[Dejounte]

It apparently is. ATL won’t get value, because no one is going all in on a RFA.

No one? Check the link in the first post. Teams are interested.

[KingKev]

It apparently is. ATL won’t get value, because no one is going all in on a RFA.

Walker and Samanic are peanuts. Moving them for a better chance to sign Collins would be a competitive offer for a calculated risk. Spurs fans overrate our youth.

[TD 21]

Yeah, but the Hawks wouldn't. I'd try this . . .

To Hawks: Gordon, Bacon
To Magic: DeRozan, Walker IV, Snell
To Spurs: Collins, Fournier, Ennis III

Works as of February 23rd, when both Ennis III and Bacon become eligible.

Then immediately reroute Fournier for either draft capital or an inexpensive, controllable young player.

I haven't done a deep dive in terms of the future cap sheet, but it feels like Walker IV is going to get squeezed. It's difficult to determine his worth (terrible metrics, but still an intriguing talent), but if it's something like $10-12M, that'd be a steep investment when they've already paid Murray and White and seem well on their way to doing so with Johnson and Vassell.

You don't invest in five non stars (maybe Johnson changes that, but they can't count on it) who play similar positions, nor lose assets for nothing. You get out in front of it.

[mo7888]

Yeah, but the Hawks wouldn't. I'd try this . . .

To Hawks: Gordon, Bacon
To Magic: DeRozan, Walker IV, Snell
To Spurs: Collins, Fournier, Ennis III

Works as of February 23rd, when both Ennis III and Bacon become eligible.

Then immediately reroute Fournier for either draft capital or an inexpensive, controllable young player.

I haven't done a deep dive in terms of the future cap sheet, but it feels like Walker IV is going to get squeezed. It's difficult to determine his worth (terrible metrics, but still an intriguing talent), but if it's something like $10-12M, that'd be a steep investment when they've already paid Murray and White and seem well on their way to doing so with Johnson and Vassell.

You don't invest in five non stars (maybe Johnson changes that, but they can't count on it) who play similar positions, nor lose assets for nothing. You get out in front of it.

If our offer to extend Lonnie is 10-12 I would expect him to just play out his contact and enter RFA the following summer (and that may be best for both parties).

[KingKev]

If our offer to extend Lonnie is 10-12 I would expect him to just play out his contact and enter RFA the following summer (and that may be best for both parties).

agree with all of that but 10-12 is fair given his performance NBA career to date. Someone may take the risk to offer more and unlock his potential which I think is a reasonable risk.

[mo7888]

agree with all of that but 10-12 is fair given his performance NBA career to date. Someone may take the risk to offer more and unlock his potential which I think is a reasonable risk.

I agree with you...his production to date doesn't warrant more..

[KingKev]

I agree with you...his production to date doesn't warrant more..

Worth noting the timing of his contract and current roster construction; 3rd in line for a contract after investing in White and Murray with Keldon and Vassel showing promise. Spurs would be less positioned to risk losing him if that wasn’t the case.

[RD2191]

Kiss me then
https://media.tenor.com/images/3240b08b8c1d722625dfb9e5d73b7b11/tenor.gif

[Dejounte]

https://media.tenor.com/images/3240b08b8c1d722625dfb9e5d73b7b11/tenor.gif

https://media1.tenor.com/images/68173b14f7682b5b42ce17a5ebe8426f/tenor.gif

[TD 21]

I'm more in on Collins than not. I get the drawbacks of him and locking in a core with Murray, White, Poeltl, Johnson and Vassell moving forward, but they've already gone the way of Pacers West and he fits and is probably the best they can do.

It's not bad considering the catastrophic Scumbag trade and lack of a high pick(s), but it also lacks offensive dynamisim and could lead to being a treadmill team all over again.

It mostly hinges on Johnson becoming a star. Things would then fall into place, including White as Ginobili esque 6th man and closer, with Collins at the five.

[FutureMan]

I’d do Poeltl, Lyles, Eubanks, and a 2nd for Snell and Collins but I doubt they’d do it.

Spurs will “overpay” for Markkanen or Collins (or both) and honestly with the decline of Aldridge either one is going to be worth it.

If they could somehow convince Aldridge to come off the bench we’d be incredible next year.

Murray
Vassell
DeRozan
Markkanen
Collins

Mills
White
Walker
Johnson
Aldridge

[spurraider21]

I’d do Poeltl, Lyles, Eubanks, and a 2nd for Snell and Collins but I doubt they’d do it.
well yeah lol

[KingKev]

I’d do Poeltl, Lyles, Eubanks, and a 2nd for Snell and Collins but I doubt they’d do it.

Spurs will “overpay” for Markkanen or Collins (or both) and honestly with the decline of Aldridge either one is going to be worth it.

If they could somehow convince Aldridge to come off the bench we’d be incredible next year.

Murray
Vassell
DeRozan
Markkanen
Collins

Mills
White
Walker
Johnson
Aldridge

there is so much wrong with this I do not know where to start.

[Joseph Kony]

I’d do Poeltl, Lyles, Eubanks, and a 2nd for Snell and Collins but I doubt they’d do it.

Spurs will “overpay” for Markkanen or Collins (or both) and honestly with the decline of Aldridge either one is going to be worth it.

If they could somehow convince Aldridge to come off the bench we’d be incredible next year.

Murray
Vassell
DeRozan
Markkanen
Collins

Mills
White
Walker
Johnson
Aldridge

:lmao

[Uriel]

Walker and Samanic have the highest ceilings among the youngsters on our team.

[TD 21]

I’d do Poeltl, Lyles, Eubanks, and a 2nd for Snell and Collins but I doubt they’d do it.

Spurs will “overpay” for Markkanen or Collins (or both) and honestly with the decline of Aldridge either one is going to be worth it.

If they could somehow convince Aldridge to come off the bench we’d be incredible next year.

Murray
Vassell
DeRozan
Markkanen
Collins

Mills
White
Walker
Johnson
Aldridge

Of course they wouldn't do it. Not only not enough value, but they have Capela and Okongwu at C, while trading Poeltl would create a gaping hole at C for a player the Spurs probably have a good chance to sign anyway (he's a finisher, not a creator, but as a young scorer, he probably cares about counting stats and accolades, so the prospect joining a core without an established or obvious go-to scorer in the making, would probably be appealing).

As Chinook mentioned, there's value to acquiring him ahead of time, but only for expendable pieces.

[FutureMan]

there is so much wrong with this I do not know where to start.

It is optimistic, no doubt. Financially possible since you’d clear Poeltl’s cap space and bird rights for Mills, DeRozan, and Aldridge.

I just hope the Spurs get to a point where they are as good as that ten man rotations. The realist in me knows we’ll probably take at least a decade to get there. Since signing two “moderate to big” free agents is a pipe dream with this front office.

[The Truth #6]

To clarify, I’m not opposed to the trade. I’d rather move Demar. Regardless, my issue is that the FO will never do this.

[RD2191]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/68173b14f7682b5b42ce17a5ebe8426f/tenor.gif
:lol

[KingKev]

It is optimistic, no doubt. Financially possible since you’d clear Poeltl’s cap space and bird rights for Mills, DeRozan, and Aldridge.

I just hope the Spurs get to a point where they are as good as that ten man rotations. The realist in me knows we’ll probably take at least a decade to get there. Since signing two “moderate to big” free agents is a pipe dream with this front office.

It is financially improbable/near impossible. Bird rights mean nothing when you consider their cap-holds. Only possible if the Spurs renounce their bird rights thereby alleviating their cap-holds, pursue Collins and Mark for what will cost at least 50m than sign DDR, Patty and LMA for close to the min.

[PhantomDashCam]

I would stand pat personally.
Sham was always a 2 year project at minimum.

Looking forward to his play with Austin this year.
It was pretty clear that Keldon was the Alpha of that team last season, and with Devin, I suspect to remain with the main squad;
he should be the #1 option by default.

A player I wouldn’t mind the Spurs to look at though would be Cody Zeller of Charlotte.
He is a little injury prone but when healthy is a starting caliber centre whose game would mesh well with the young talent.
He is only 28.

A little tough to make the numbers work so it might be have to be off-season target/addition.

[Dejounte]

CKkdfT7AmPZ

Ummm so this will probably the reason why Lonnie won't get traded. These two are like brothers. Not to mention Lonnie bought a house in SA quite recently.

[RC_Drunkford]

that would be borderline stupid. Lonnie Walker has a higher ceiling than John Collins and Collins is an FA. Also people are way too critical on Luka, the guy has some advanced scoring moves already, it's just defense that he has to work on to get playing time

[Dejounte]

that would be borderline stupid. Lonnie Walker has a higher ceiling than John Collins and Collins is an FA. Also people are way too critical on Luka, the guy has some advanced scoring moves already, it's just defense that he has to work on to get playing time

Collins is a RFA. It's beyond stupid for Atlanta to let Collins go for nothing. Hop off being a Spurs fan and see this through the other team's lens.

[Mal]

Depends how much Collins asks, but yes. It's getting crowded at guards with Spurs. One of them won't stick long term - DDR, DJ, KJ, DW, LWIV, PM.

[Chinook]

that would be borderline stupid. Lonnie Walker has a higher ceiling than John Collins and Collins is an FA. Also people are way too critical on Luka, the guy has some advanced scoring moves already, it's just defense that he has to work on to get playing time

I mean, Collins has a pretty high ceiling, and right now, he'd be the best player on the team under 30

[KobesAchilles]

Just a quick question, but can Phoenix afford to max out BOTH Ayton and Bridges? Bc if not, that is where I'm looking at if I'm the Spurs. Try to poach talent from other teams. I would trade whoever for either player next season.

[rankingtear]

Just a quick question, but can Phoenix afford to max out BOTH Ayton and Bridges? Bc if not, that is where I'm looking at if I'm the Spurs. Try to poach talent from other teams. I would trade whoever for either player next season.

Yes, Paul's deal expires before their extensions kicks in.

[R. DeMurre]

Close call for me... The fastest way to guaranteeing trouble is signing a non-max player to a max, & I don't know if Collins is a max player, but one advantage he has is he's only been in the league a few years, so his max isn't nearly as high as that of guys like Westbrook or Wall. That's a plus. And I think he'd be easily tradable if it turns out to be a bad fit. But that being said, he's not my favorite target to use the patiently accumulated cap space on. While putting him between Poeltl & KJ seems somewhat ideal, I also would prefer someone whose defense doesn't need the consideration of hiding-- one reason I was so high on Jonathan Isaac before he got hurt & re-signed. Last year, when Collins was a higher usage rate guy, he was a 20/10 player and his team was pretty bad. This year, he's a lower usage rate player, about 17/8, and his team is at .500... so Collins playing fewer minutes and taking fewer shots has actually been good news for the Hawks, giving a bigger role to two way player De'Andre Hunter. That's a bit of a red flag for me, though I can also see the argument that the Hawks are simply getting better because all of their many young players-- & this includes Collins-- are improving and jelling. Luka and Walker are both really young, having each just turned 21 & 22, and will cost less in the next three years combined than Collins on his own, leaving the Spurs room for another signing... man, it's a really close call, but I think I have to vote no on this and hope the Spurs can find a different route. But that being said, I wouldn't fault them for doing it. I wouldn't label it a bad move by any means, but just not the optimal move in my opinion.

[tmtcsc]

All day, every day. That trade would get the Atlanta GM fired btw.

[CGD]

Yes, I'd do that, but, Im not convinced ATL doesn't reup him if he can prove he can fetch a max deal

[TD 21]

Close call for me... The fastest way to guaranteeing trouble is signing a non-max player to a max, & I don't know if Collins is a max player, but one advantage he has is he's only been in the league a few years, so his max isn't nearly as high as that of guys like Westbrook or Wall. That's a plus. And I think he'd be easily tradable if it turns out to be a bad fit. But that being said, he's not my favorite target to use the patiently accumulated cap space on. While putting him between Poeltl & KJ seems somewhat ideal, I also would prefer someone whose defense doesn't need the consideration of hiding-- one reason I was so high on Jonathan Isaac before he got hurt & re-signed. Last year, when Collins was a higher usage rate guy, he was a 20/10 player and his team was pretty bad. This year, he's a lower usage rate player, about 17/8, and his team is at .500... so Collins playing fewer minutes and taking fewer shots has actually been good news for the Hawks, giving a bigger role to two way player De'Andre Hunter. That's a bit of a red flag for me, though I can also see the argument that the Hawks are simply getting better because all of their many young players-- & this includes Collins-- are improving and jelling. Luka and Walker are both really young, having each just turned 21 & 22, and will cost less in the next three years combined than Collins on his own, leaving the Spurs room for another signing... man, it's a really close call, but I think I have to vote no on this and hope the Spurs can find a different route. But that being said, I wouldn't fault them for doing it. I wouldn't label it a bad move by any means, but just not the optimal move in my opinion.

Sure, but they're not going to be able to check every box. He checks enough of them to make sense though, including fitting well with the youth since they're all neutral-plus defenders.

He can start at and space the floor as the four next to Poeltl, then rim run when he's the five and Johnson/Lyles or replacement/Samanic are the four.

They can probably get a more modern four like Gordon (provided the Raptors aren't interested in a DeRozan reunion) instead, but that would make the future offense even more questionable.

[Chinook]

Also to be clear, Collins is having a good defensive year. People are acting like he needs to be hidden, when in reality he can be part of a good defensive team if he has good teammates and a solid scheme. He just can't be an anchor.

[Dejounte]

One of the closest polls I've seen on this website.

[Dejounte]

Off-topic:

John Collins loves anime.

https://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-feature/2021/01/25/crunchyroll-all-stars-john-collins-on-getting-training-inspiration-from-rock-lee?utm_source=editorial_cr&utm_medium=carousel&utm_campaign=news_en&referrer=editorial_cr_carousel_news
Obi Juan Kenobi (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=39891)

Who would you rank as the top anime villain ever?

Frieza — His character has transcended into hip hop culture despite his villainous ways

[LCM]

Is Collins offensive production down and playing fewer minutes, yes. Especially during packages with Hunter at 4 or Gallinari in the game when healthy. Trae is NOT passing Collins the ball. All the lobs that Collins got from Trae the last two years are going to Capella. Huerter, Hunter, Goodwin, even Capella will pass to Collins on occasion. But, Trae will not set Collins up on a consistent basis on the offensive end since Collins called Trae out during a film session.

[Dejounte]

Is Collins offensive production down and playing fewer minutes, yes. Especially during packages with Hunter at 4 or Gallinari in the game when healthy. Trae is NOT passing Collins the ball. All the lobs that Collins got from Trae the last two years are going to Capella. Huerter, Hunter, Goodwin, even Capella will pass to Collins on occasion. But, Trae will not set Collins up on a consistent basis on the offensive end since Collins called Trae out during a film session.

I mean, I'd expect (and prefer) it to be the same here. I would want Collins to get his points within the flow of the offense and not as another LaMarcus Aldridge type who needs his touches.

[SpursDynasty85]

Hmm. I said no because I didn't think Collins could shoot the 3. Over 40% the last 2 seasons in about 60 games, decent shooting attempts for such a solid inside presence. Looks like he may be more versatile than first thought. I haven't seen enough tape about him to definitively say.

[SpursDynasty85]

Is Collins offensive production down and playing fewer minutes, yes. Especially during packages with Hunter at 4 or Gallinari in the game when healthy. Trae is NOT passing Collins the ball. All the lobs that Collins got from Trae the last two years are going to Capella. Huerter, Hunter, Goodwin, even Capella will pass to Collins on occasion. But, Trae will not set Collins up on a consistent basis on the offensive end since Collins called Trae out during a film session.

Fake news.

[LCM]

I mean, I'd expect (and prefer) it to be the same here. I would want Collins to get his points within the flow of the offense and not as another LaMarcus Aldridge type who needs his touches.

I agree completely. Collins isn't the problem. You see him on the perimeter when Capella sets a screen away. Collins will roll when he screens or works the offense. But when John screens for Trae, Trae isn't even looking for him. Trae will either shoot the long three or go for layups. Anyone else, Trae will pocket pass or lob. I'm surprised the Atlanta coach has let it go on because Trae has been doing it multiple games.

[R. DeMurre]

I mean, Collins has a pretty high ceiling, and right now, he'd be the best player on the team under 30


Also to be clear, Collins is having a good defensive year. People are acting like he needs to be hidden, when in reality he can be part of a good defensive team if he has good teammates and a solid scheme. He just can't be an anchor.

So you think with Collins shooting 58% from two, 41% from three, and playing good defensive, he still wouldn't be the best player on the team?

[Chinook]

So you think with Collins shooting 58% from two, 41% from three, and playing good defensive, he still wouldn't be the best player on the team?

Just because he's the best player under 30 doesn't mean he wouldn't be better than the older players too. It's just unambiguous that he'd be better than the young guys (meaning the guys who would be on the team long term). Suggesting that it's a bad trade because Walker/Samanic MAY have higher ceilings ignores how good Collins is compared to the prospects on the club at the moment.

[R. DeMurre]

I mean, Collins has a pretty high ceiling, and right now, he'd be the best player on the team under 30


Just because he's the best player under 30 doesn't mean he wouldn't be better than the older players too. It's just unambiguous that he'd be better than the young guys (meaning the guys who would be on the team long term). Suggesting that it's a bad trade because Walker/Samanic MAY have higher ceilings ignores how good Collins is compared to the prospects on the club at the moment.

I didn't say anything about Walker or Samanic's ceilings. It sounds like you think it's a good idea to use the cap space on a guy who potentially might or might not be as good as DeRozan, to replace DeRozan as the centerpiece?

[Chinook]

I didn't say anything about Walker or Samanic's ceilings.

You didn't, but this thread is bigger than your previous post. My point that you responded to was challenging the idea that trading Walker and Samanic for Collins doesn't make sense because of assumed ceilings. My point was that out of all the young players, Collins is obviously the best. I separated those guys from the "over 30 crowd" because guys like LMA and DMDR are former All-NBA players, and "how good they are" depends on whether they can consistently play at the former levels, not their raw talent. You took issue with that distinction, and I don't really find that specific debate to be interesting. This thread is about trading young players for him, not trading the older guys.


It sounds like you think it's a good idea to use the cap space on a guy who potentially might or might not be as good as DeRozan, to replace DeRozan as the centerpiece?

Yeah. DeRozan's really good. I know that disturbs people, but the dude is really, really good at playing basketball. There's a pretty small chance that someone like Anthony Edwards is going to be better than DeRozan, let alone the unassuming prospects the team has. It's fit, attitude and scheme that makes bringing back DeRozan dicey. If he were a 6-9 forward, he'd be an obvious re-sign if he wanted it. I have no qualms about maxing out a guy who might not have DMDR's raw talent but is a perfect fit for the young guys on the team. That your question suggests it would only cost cap space makes it a huge no-brainer. Sign Collins, draft a defensive forward and pick up a decent wing and center in free agency.

Murray, White
Walker, Vassell
Johnson, (FA wing)
Collins, (Drafted Forward)
Poeltl, (FA C)

That's probably a strong rotation, and that's ignoring KBD/Weatherspoon, anything acquired in a vet trade and Eubanks and/or Samanic developing well enough to get in the rotation.

[spurs10]

Need to know more about Collins. Sounds like he'd be a really great addition. At what cost I don't know. If he's going to be the all-star player we need? Let's hope.

[C-Dub]

Dinosaurs Mitoglou the C that was brought up in a previous thread stating that the Spurs have been keeping an eye on across sea's is friends with John Collins. They played together at Wake Forest in college and I recently watched an old interview with Collins asking if they were still friends since Mitoglou went over sea's to play for Panathinaikos and Collins replied that they still keep in touch. Maybe the Spurs sign Dinos Mitoglou this offseason to help entice Collins to sign as a FA. Dinos has a nice touch from outside and can be a nice role player off the bench backing up Poeltl next season. Watch some of his Wake Forest highlights, he hit 8 3 pointers in one game.

DJM, Mills, Jones
White, LW4, QW
KJ, Vassell, 1st Rd Pick
Collins, Gay, Samanic
Poeltl, Dinos, Eubanks

Not sure what to do with Lyles.
2 way contracts for our 2nd Rd Pick and KBD

[R. DeMurre]

You didn't, but this thread is bigger than your previous post. My point that you responded to was challenging the idea that trading Walker and Samanic for Collins doesn't make sense because of assumed ceilings..

:lol In that case, argue with someone who actually said it, instead of applying it to me, who clearly never said it.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Murray, White
Walker, Vassell
Johnson, (FA wing)
Collins, (Drafted Forward)
Poeltl, (FA C)

That's probably a strong rotation, and that's ignoring KBD/Weatherspoon, anything acquired in a vet trade and Eubanks and/or Samanic developing well enough to get in the rotation.

I can see this being the plan for next season, however, unless someone makes a huge leap I'm not at all convinced it'll be a better team than this year's. In fact, I'd say it'll be worse. Perhaps more upside, but upside doesn't mean too much.

[CGD]

This is exactly the type of asset consolidation and roster balancing move I hope the Spurs make in the coming seasons.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

This is exactly the type of asset consolidation and roster balancing move I hope the Spurs make in the coming seasons.

I agree. Instead of locking up too much middling talent to long term deals and ending up with a low ceiling team, they should take advantage of situations where they can upgrade and balance the roster.

The most important factor is to identify who's a keeper and who's not. As for Collins specifically, I'm not convinced he's a max player or a difference maker, however trading for him is the easiest realistic way to have him and DDR next season if that's the plan. If they have to acquire him in the summer with cap space then DDR will be gone.

[tbdog]

Teams like the Heat had lots of these mid range guys that had largish contracts. They still managed to get a max player in Butler and obviously drafted a future stud big at pick 14. The Heat shows that you can build contenders without tanking and without trying to knock everything out of the park.

Edit*

And this was a team that lost Lebron in 14, lost Wade to retirement and Bosh to a career illness. 6 years later, they back in the hunt.

[Ocotillo]

Collins went to Wake Forest? That's a sign......:clap

[Chinook]

:lol In that case, argue with someone who actually said it, instead of applying it to me, who clearly never said it.

No thanks. I'm going to just assume you were responding to the point I was making, since you quoted me and all. This whole discussion started from you trying to make a semantic distinction, and now you've completely dropped the pretense of your question to harp on it. The point about players under 30 and the point about ceilings are the exact same point.

[Chinook]

I can see this being the plan for next season, however, unless someone makes a huge leap I'm not at all convinced it'll be a better team than this year's. In fact, I'd say it'll be worse. Perhaps more upside, but upside doesn't mean too much.

If you're comparing it to what they're doing this year, when they seem to have nine guys who are playing pretty well, then I can understand. This Spurs team is performing as a solid playoff team with room to improve. But due to age, contracts roster conflict, it's not sustainable. If the Spurs manage to get young, keep all of their draft picks and still have space in their long-term budget while still being about as good as they are this year, that's a big win. A lot of STers don't want to accept how good the vets are, so they think it's easy to replace them. It's not easy, but this is a potential path that would let SA remain a playoff team while being able to develop guys at all positions. That's a great place to be for a small-market team that hasn't had a top-10 pick in a quarter-century.

[cd021]

]Yep. Easier to keep Collins if we trade for him first.[/B] Also by virtue of getting Collins Luka becomes useless since we both need them to do the same thing and play the same way, and at least right now collins is the far superior player at doing that.

I also think Lonnie is the least likely to sign a second contract, so this is a no brainer trade

That's only if the Spurs value him, and if they think he's worth paying him up to the max. If they do, then they obviously can match in RFA. Otherwise, the Spurs would getting rid of a decent player with still a pretty good amount of upside and another who is a big question mark but could, in theory, turn into something good for the chance to overpay Collins in the off-season.

Does Walker + Samanic have the potential to match or exceed Collins production/ potential? Maybe. Then there's the difference in combined future salary. Collins is more likely to be overpaid and be on a productive player on a bad deal in a couple of years. Walker might end up being the player that he is and could still end up being overpaid in RFA while Samanic washes out. Still, I think i'd rather keep Walker and Samanic rather than risk a trade for Collins.

Spurs still need PF though, but the draft and looking elsewhere in FA is probably a better option.

[R. DeMurre]

No thanks. I'm going to just assume you were responding to the point I was making, since you quoted me and all. This whole discussion started from you trying to make a semantic distinction, and now you've completely dropped the pretense of your question to harp on it. The point about players under 30 and the point about ceilings are the exact same point.

Assume away. Simply reading my posts in the thread would show I wasn't talking about their ceilings, but it's more convenient for you to lump me in with others who are, which gives you the opportunity for a disingenuous gotcha on the ceiling point argument. Congrats on that. My question is and always has been whether or not it's wise to spend big money on another DeRozan type player who puts up big numbers but doesn't produce a winning effect typical of max contract guys. That's always been my way of looking at Collins.

[Chinook]

Assume away. Simply reading my posts in the thread would show I wasn't talking about their ceilings, but it's more convenient for you to lump me in with others who are, which gives you the opportunity for a disingenuous gotcha on the ceiling point argument. Congrats on that.

This thread is about Walker and Samanic for Collins. I made a comment about why talking about Walker's and/or Samanic's ceilings is wrong-headed, because Collins would clearly be the best player under 30. You decided to quote me to ask why I separated the young guys and vets. I explained my reasoning and went on to answer your follow-up question about whether Collins is worth the money if he's almost as good as DeRozan. You didn't reply to that thread of the conversation after that point. So I assume you understand my stance and either agree or don't feel the need to argue.

So if that was all you wanted to know, then the conversation could've ended there. Instead, you had to reiterate that you didn't say anything about ceilings. I never accused you of doing so. I merely restated my stance on the topic this thread is about. This thread is bigger than our conversation. It's not about signing Collins straight up. It's about trading for him using Walker and Samanic, so his value versus theirs is also topical. I clarified that, and instead of just going, "Oh, okay, he wasn't specifically accusing me of that, so I don't need to respond", you decided to go, "Talk to someone else about that". This thread IS for talking about that. Like if you don't want to talk about that, cool. I already answer the question you said you had, and you seem satisfied by the answer. It's okay not just move on. Instead, you're trying to read a "gotcha moment" into it, as if I was the one you was jumping into your conversation.

You haven't said anything about Walker's or Samanic's ceilings that I can remember. Cool noted. Now I'm going to go ahead and reiterate for the thread that we can debate whether Collins is worth trading for with Walker and Samanic. You can think Collins isn't worth the max or that Walker or Samanic are worth more. But comparing a prospect's potential directly to a young player's production is flawed reasoning. Collins is a good young big with a realistic chance of making an All-Star game soon. That is a high floor, and if Walker and Samanic were definitely not able to reach it, then there's no way the Spurs would be able to pull off this trade. You have to pay in order to get good guys in trades. You can't wait for guys to flame out first, and you can't ever know for sure if you'll end up regretting the deal later on because the guy you moved blew up. If you're the Pacers, you have to make trades planning to get George Hill, not worrying you might trade away Kawhi Leonard.

[R. DeMurre]

But comparing a prospect's potential directly to a young player's production is flawed reasoning.

Isn't that exactly what the Spurs did in order to land Kawhi?

[K...]

Isn't that exactly what the Spurs did in order to land Kawhi?

Uh, the spurs didn't want to pay hill his expected salary. It was hill or Parker.

[Chinook]

Isn't that exactly what the Spurs did in order to land Kawhi?

The way I mean it is basically the opposite. I am not talking about prospect like a draft pick. I'm talking about a guy who's been on the team for years and who at this point is somewhat differentiated, and I'm comparing him to a guy who's been in the league almost the same length of time. Like it doesn't make sense to me to use what Walker could be ideally but then consider Collins at his ceiling.

I could've been more clear on that, though. You're right than I've advocated for trading guys for draft picks, and that does weigh potential against production.

[stephen jackson]

Why are y’all infatuated with Collins and why do y’all think the Spurs want him or if he’d even consider the Spurs in free agency? I don’t understand why this guy is linked to us but only here on our forums not anywhere else

[Chinook]

Why are y’all infatuated with Collins and why do y’all think the Spurs want him or if he’d even consider the Spurs in free agency? I don’t understand why this guy is linked to us but only here on our forums not anywhere else

Collins was my guy during his draft. So I've actually wanted him this whole time. But the dude is around the age of the other young guys on the club and is the best free agent at the position of greatest need for the Spurs. That's why so many folks want him. That he seems to not want to play with established star guards, lived in VI and went to Wake Forest is why I think SA would have a strong chance to sign him. It's not a guarantee, though, which is why trading for him can make a lot of sense if the price is reasonable enough.

[GreekSpursfan]

Lonnie and Luka is not gonna cut it, they will ask more.

[stephen jackson]

Collins was my guy during his draft. So I've actually wanted him this whole time. But the dude is around the age of the other young guys on the club and is the best free agent at the position of greatest need for the Spurs. That's why so many folks want him. That he seems to not want to play with established star guards, lived in VI and went to Wake Forest is why I think SA would have a strong chance to sign him. It's not a guarantee, though, which is why trading for him can make a lot of sense if the price is reasonable enough.
I see I like his game and kinda warming up to him, but I don't see us getting him in free agency or having any shot at him I'm sure some team will max him out

[mo7888]

Collins was my guy during his draft. So I've actually wanted him this whole time. But the dude is around the age of the other young guys on the club and is the best free agent at the position of greatest need for the Spurs. That's why so many folks want him. That he seems to not want to play with established star guards, lived in VI and went to Wake Forest is why I think SA would have a strong chance to sign him. It's not a guarantee, though, which is why trading for him can make a lot of sense if the price is reasonable enough.

Hypothetically, if JC stays with Atl... what would you think about the fit of resigning DDR and adding Markkanan

[Chinook]

Hypothetically, if JC stays with Atl... what would you think about the fit of resigning DDR and adding Markkanan

I don't love DeRozan coming back just because it means the team will continue to have to play small. I like that Johnson's bulk allows them to, but they need a legit PF to get to the next level. Markannen is an intriguing player to sign to a speculative deal (like $48M/3 with the last year non-guaranteed or something), but I wouldn't sign him expecting him to be a starter. The upside's there, but the dude is not that consistent. I certainly don't mind having a three-way competition among Sam, Mark and a rookie, though.

[kht]

In a heart beat... Lonnie has been underwhelming and I'd rather just cut my losses with Luka.

[mo7888]

I don't love DeRozan coming back just because it means the team will continue to have to play small. I like that Johnson's bulk allows them to, but they need a legit PF to get to the next level. Markannen is an intriguing player to sign to a speculative deal (like $48M/3 with the last year non-guaranteed or something), but I wouldn't sign him expecting him to be a starter. The upside's there, but the dude is not that consistent. I certainly don't mind having a three-way competition among Sam, Mark and a rookie, though.

I've been trying to watch Atl, Sac, and Chicago the last few week looking at their RFA's. I like all 3 guys to differing degrees. I think JC is the best player right now but Markannen surprised me a bit with his effort level. I thought he was softer and more uninterested than he is. In my eyes he has more upside than JC but his floor is much lower....he's riskier and therefore not worth as much right now but, I wouldn't be disappointed in him at all if we struck out on JC.

[ginobilized]

JC seems like a good fit with this squad.
Our young guns are so tight, the chemistry and coachability have to be there along with the talent and height.

My guess is that the draft will be where we find our next 4 & 5.