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IcemanCometh
07-08-2003, 08:27 PM
First lets look at Payton.
Yes hes a supreme upgrade over Derek Fisher. But he is no longer a superstar. His defense is one of the most overrated in the league, he has lost several steps and can't defend any of the quicker points in the league ; the new rules means he can't use his strength to body up his man. Both he and Kobe have to dominate the ball so there will be "some" conflict there. In the end he can easily be a reliable 3rd scorer who can give them 15 points a night but this is just going to be another Glen Rice move that everyone thought would make them invincible.

As for Malone, lets assume they get him.
He cannot play in the triangle, lets just get that out of the way right now. He cannot play defense anymore. He can't rebound. That is what the Lakers need and want from their pf rebounding and defense, occasional scoring from offensive putbacks. 10 pts 6 rebounds a game.


An improved lakers team? Sure but 70 wins no way.

ChumpDumper
07-08-2003, 08:32 PM
Well, they'll still have to double Duncan.

Thank goodness.

NCaliSpurs
07-08-2003, 08:40 PM
They will have the most talented team in the leauge.

If Kobe and Shaq hadn't already won together for so long, I would doubt the new look Lakers' ability to gel.

Right now, barring some major moves by the Spurs, the Lakers are my favorite to win next year.

adidas11
07-08-2003, 08:42 PM
These are excellent concerns to point out.

How will Malone and Payton make the transition to complimentary role players? Can they make the adjustment?

Given, they're both upgrades on Robert Horry and Derek Fisher. And both Laker fans and Laker haters have always pointed out about the lack of talent across the board, especially at these two positions. So I commend the Lakers for doing what they can to upgrade. Of course egos are going to be a challenge to overcome as well.

bugramps
07-08-2003, 08:48 PM
I've said this before, but I'll say it here.
This scenario has one chance and one season to work. Malone is not even a top 5 PF in the west anymore, let alone the league (probably not top 10 in the league). He may be able to contribute a bit this season, but not much...he won't score that much, and rebounding? Eh, we'll see.
Again, it's a short-term fix. Payton may have 5-6 years left in him and he's not what he used to be. Malone, is older and is DEF not what he used to be and he can't defend Duncan and Payton can't defend Parker.
So, not sure this is as impressive as it seems.
Get these guys five years ago, and you'd have something. Now? They're desperate so desperate they'll play for chump change to get a title. If they were that magnificent, they wouldn't settle like this. They know their time is quickly running out.

SAmikeyp
07-08-2003, 08:50 PM
It can work, but will it? that remains to be seen. Still a good move by LA.

adidas11
07-08-2003, 08:56 PM
Quote: "Malone is not even a top 5 PF in the west anymore, let alone the league (probably not top 10 in the league). "

You're kidding me, right? Malone led a team as the primary scorer into the playoffs, at the age of 39!!!!

As for Payton and Malone not being the players they used to be, that is actually more ideal for this situation. Remember, they are not expected to perform at a superstar level in LA, but merely to fill roles and perform those roles well. The question is whether or not they can make that adjustment, but the expectation should NOT be if they be First Team All NBA Superstars again. The Lakers already have their two superstars.

DreamShake
07-08-2003, 09:03 PM
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Nowitzki (if you call him a PF)
4. Webber
5. 'Sheed

Remember,

Malone: 20.6 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.68 spg

Who else is clearly better than Malone? Brand? Ben Wallace?

Question.

Archie
07-08-2003, 09:10 PM
Payton's the addition that concerns me moreso than Malone. You can't look at these guys in isolation. You have the two man game with Kobe & Shaq and now you have GP waiting to make a team pay for focusing on them. GP can put the rock on the floor and make a play. If you look at the Lakers they've never really had a guy like that outside of Bryant himself. They've had guys like Ron Harper who are leaders on the court but no one to whom to turn to make a play. Payton's old but he still has plenty of game. LA now has a legit 3rd scorer and one hell of an on court leader.

The Spurs' strategy for defending LA was to let Shaq and Kobe get theirs and shut down the supporting cast. The method was to use Bowen's D on Kobe to force Kobe to work for his while staying at home on the other Lakers. Say what you will, but GP is still a pretty damn good 1 on 1 player.

Malone is an improvement but it will be harder for him to adjust, IMO. He'll be relegated to spotting up for the shot...not a bad option to have but I don't see his impact as being as important as Payton's. LA has really not had a straight up playmaking guard who looks to get others involved.

Now they do. To discount that is foolish.

adidas11
07-08-2003, 09:19 PM
Quote: "Malone is an improvement but it will be harder for him to adjust, IMO. He'll be relegated to spotting up for the shot...not a bad option to have but I don't see his impact as being as important as Payton's. LA has really not had a straight up playmaking guard who looks to get others involved."

This is why I've said time and time again that I would have preferred PJ Brown over Karl Malone. PJ Brown has proven that he can function in the blue-collar hustle type of PF player, while Malone has never done that in his career. I think the challenge for Malone is to integrate himself in the Laker triangle offense by hitting open shots when he gets them, and to provide solid rebounding and defense in conjunction with Shaq in the paint. A major part of Malone's effectiveness with the Jazz this past season was that they continued to run baseline and low post screens for him, allowing him to free up for easy baskets in the paint. That won't happen for him in LA, and it will be a different mindset and approach for him to get the "feel" of the game now.

ChumpDumper
07-08-2003, 09:21 PM
One thing is for sure, if that team doesn't deliver a championship, they'll be the biggest laughing stock ever.

Thank LA for making everyone else the heavy underdog.

SanAntonioBard
07-08-2003, 09:45 PM
PJ would have been a better pickup for LA.

I still think even Payton is a gamble. He's used to having the ball, shooting when he wants, waving his (sorry ass) big men out of the lane so that he can post up some guard, and throwing weights at anyone who crosses him in the locker room.

I'll leave you with a paraphrase from someone in the Seattle organization after the GP trade:


Gary wasn't the problem, but after all of these years, we figured out that he wasn't the solution, either.

He's not a leader.

spurster
07-08-2003, 10:13 PM
On paper these moves should produce an unbeatable team. Ranked by efficiency/game, fat Shaq is #3, ladies man Kobe is #5, scrub Malone is #14, and slacker Payton is #18.

TwoHandJam
07-08-2003, 10:14 PM
One thing is for sure, if that team doesn't deliver a championship, they'll be the biggest laughing stock ever.

That's an understatement. Forget the chemistry problems, a poorly timed injury (Gary is 35, Malone 41) could spell disaster. One thing's for sure, they just got even older and more unathletic. I don't see how this move will help even 2 years from now.

Archie
07-08-2003, 10:14 PM
SAB, he's a leader on the court and that's what matters most in the postseason.

adidas11
07-08-2003, 10:21 PM
The thing about the Lakers, is that they can't worry about several years from now, when their window of opportunity is now. They are in the midst of a dynasty, and have to make appropriate moves to keep it going.

As for the pressure on them, it will be tremendous, probably even unheard of. That is another facet that I'm not extremely thrilled with. I was sort of hoping that with the Lakers not being the champions anymore, that they wouldn't be the #1 target in the league anymore either. Teams come harder at the Lakers than any other team in the league, by far. Of course with this move, the media circus will be insane, and the Lakers will probably remain the #1 target to beat next season. :(

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-08-2003, 10:40 PM
Everyone needs to drop the triangle slight against Malone.

The last two years LA has run less and less of the triangle and more pick and roll, it fits Malone's game perfectly.

AHF

obie
07-08-2003, 11:06 PM
At first glance, it seems like a big mistake for the Lakers. Four All-Stars, four players who could lead a team in scoring. How could it possibly work?

But this is an interesting scenario. Gary Payton and Karl Malone (assuming they both go to the Lakers), are turning down personal accomplishments and money, to hopefully win an NBA Championship.

Here are four reasons why it will work.

1) Priorities - Karl Malone is on the verge of breaking the All-Time Record for points. He could stay in Utah for two more seasons, average 18 points a game, retire the all time leading scorer. Instead, he chooses to be the 3rd/4th option on a championship contender. This personal sacrafice reveals his priorities, and it will carry over on the court. He isn't expecting the ball every possesion. He isn't expecting to average 20 ppg, and be the staple of the offense. If he wanted that, he could stay in Salt Lake City, and make a lot more money. He wants a ring, simple as that. He's willing to do what the Lakers need him to do, he has no hidden agendas.

Gary Payton is also sacraficing personal glory for a championship. He could be the leading scorer of so many teams, but he would rather win.

The transition will be smooth, because both players are making this choice to be a lesser player. They had a choice between personal glory or team glory, and they chose team.

2) Defense - Something both these players bring is defensive intensity. They are both very good defenders, and although they are past their prime, they still can D it up. (Payton cant defend any of the quicker points in the league? give me a break iceman). Karl Malone is known for having a helicopter take him up a mountain so he could slide down in a defensive stance. GP is THE GLOVE. These players have been great defenders their whole career, and they will be able to focus more on defense because the offense is not going through them like it was previously. If the Lakers needed one thing, it was defensive intensity (Maybe Karl Malone can teach them how to defend the pick-and-roll).

3) The Triangle - Some speculation on the addition of Payton and Malone hurting the triangle has baffled me. This is exactly what the triangle is all about. Five players working together. The problem with the triangle recently has been too much focus on isolation (just ask tex winter). The Lakers abandoned many of the Triangle's principles lately, because they didn't have a great power forward, and their point guard was sub-par as well. This will rejuvinate Tex Winter's offense, and bring back the principles that won 9 championships.

4) Crafty Veterans - The Laker's aren't adding young guns like Elton Brand and Stephon Marbury. Karl Malone and Gary Payton have been in the league a while, and they know how to play the game. This makes me think that they won't suffer from Blazer's-Disease, having too many scorers, too many guys who need the ball. These Vets will add something that younger and more athletic guys don't have, knowledge.

--obie:music

DuffMcCartney
07-08-2003, 11:17 PM
They are both very good defenders, and although they are past their prime, they still can D it up. Karl Malone is known for having a helicopter take him up a mountain so he could slide down in a defensive stance.

Are they having a liquidation sale on crack in your neighborhood?

Whottt
07-09-2003, 12:13 AM
This team is going to have 3 major weaknesses...

Defense, transition defense(big time) and age.

Now I know I am gonna get some shit from the Kiddiots on this...but LA is vulnerable to transition...you can't rely on it totally against them, which is why Kidd never sold me..but if you hit them with it periodically they get blown off the court.

It was one of the reasons we beat them.


They are actually going to be a weaker team in transition with this team. Luckily for them they have GP who can dish without turning it over 15 times in a game like some PG's. Still..you can still run on a team with out getting TO's.

This team will struggle more with teams like the Mavericks and Kings than they have in the past.

If they should meet either one of those teams in the post season they will probably win but...it takes a lot of games to win a title these days.

The same reason this might not work is the same reason many of us are against Kidd..age.

I know most guys over look it..people look at MJ and Kareem and think guys can play until they're 40 and not wear down or become injury prone. Well that isn't the case for most players..most players do slowdown at 30 and most do become injury prone.

This Laker team is gonna have some injuries due to age..as durable as GP and Malone have been..father time catches up to everyone..whether it will catch up to them this year or next I don't know but it will catch up to them in the next 2 years. Hell tired legs caught up with LA this year..

LA had a great off season...they have skilled players..but age is the great equalzier and you just can't say enough about having young and talented legs. It sure was nice as a SpurFan this year to be running all those young guys out there at seasons end, who still had legs on their jumpers.

I might add, anyone that doesn't think Tony Parker is going to be a huge asset, even more important, going up against this Laker team, needs to rewatch this past season.

Edit: And IMO it is a mistake to expect egos to hurt this team. Kobe and Shaq were humbled in this post season, Malone and GP swallowed their pride when they said they would play for less.

And even if they are still ego maniacs....People bash Phil Jackson's coaching all the time..I don't..he's a great coach..he's an asshole, but still a great coach, and if there is one thing he does well it's manage egos on his team. If he got Scottie and MJ to accept Rodman, whom they absolutely despised, meshing these 4 egos is gonna be a piece of cake.

adidas11
07-09-2003, 01:05 AM
Age is overrated Whott. And since when did the Lakers become an "old" team? Half their team can be considered young by NBA standards. Devean George, Kobe Bryant, Derek Fisher, Kareem Rush, Jannero Pargo, Madsen, and now they have two other rookies stepping in. "Older" players can include Malone, Payton, Fox, and Horry. Shaq is in the middle, at 31.

Their problem last year wasn't age. It was depth, and wearing down after winning 3 straight championships.

Age was never a concern when the Spurs won the championship in 1999 (albeit, a lockout shortened season)

DuffMcCartney
07-09-2003, 01:10 AM
And since when did the Lakers become an "old" team? Half their team can be considered young by NBA standards.

Kareem Rush, Jannero Pargo, Madsen, and now they have two other rookies stepping in.

:lol :lol :lol

You forgot to mention skill adidas....

Archie
07-09-2003, 01:12 AM
Yeah Whottt the Spurs don't need Kidd. Getting Kidd and a solid big like a PJ Brown would give the Spurs what they need going forward in a LA with Payton world.

Payton's not expected to carry a team now. He's the 3rd star now and he fits that role like a (yes) glove.

The time is now. The Spurs can't keep this cap flexibility without losing talent going forward. They need to make a real acquisition and just not mark time. With the mid-level exception the Lakers just made an acquisition that vaulted them to the top of the league, like it or not.

Spurs must get one of JO'Neal/Kidd/Brand. Period.

adidas11
07-09-2003, 01:13 AM
That post made absolutely no sense Duff.

The Lakers won 3 championships in a row, so I'm sure they have a better sense of how to remain competitive and give themselves a chance to win better than any other team in the league. And a line up of Payton, Kobe, Shaq, Malone, and Pee Wee Herman, I'm sure there is some "skill" in there somewhere.

DuffMcCartney
07-09-2003, 01:14 AM
That post made absolutely no sense Duff.

Obviously it went way over your feeble brain.

Gridmed
07-09-2003, 01:17 AM
The Laker moves will not work!

Just give me some time, I'll find a 16 year old that looks 19...


:hat2

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:24 AM
Adidas...LA began this season with 3 30 something players that were integral to their team..Fox, Horry, and Shaq...

How did their seasons go this year? Do you think Horry just went from being a 10 year clutch shot specialist to being a choker by chance? Hell no you guys relied on him too much and he had no legs by seasons end.

And you are right..the Spurs were old, especially at guard..after 99... they would cruise through the regular season and then come playoff time they couldn't buy a basket. No legs. Steve Smith isn't a choker, he never has been neither was Porter, they just got old and we relied on them too heavily.

Now if you get some old guys and put them on ice for most of the regular season it pays huge dividends..see Brian Shaw and Rod Harper on your own team and Willis and Kerr on mine.

LA is gonna be relying on these guys as starters...Shaq, Malone, GP...their backups are weak..it's gonna catch up to them, even a stud like GP..it is definitely gonna catch up to Malone. Fisher isn't 30 but he's got the feet of an 80 year old man.

My pick for injuries will be either Shaq or Malone...that toe of Shaq's isn't going to go away, and the harder he works to keep weight off the worse that toe is gonna get IMO. I don't want to see the guys get injured believe me, it sucks when that happens..but it's a by product of age. Anyway what I have noticed is that guys with ankle or toe problems that continue to play through them, usually end up popping a knee ligament sooner or later.

Gridmed
07-09-2003, 01:27 AM
-----------------------------------------------------
usually end up popping a knee ligament sooner or later.
-----------------------------------------------------


LOL you sick freak :p

Archie
07-09-2003, 01:27 AM
Say what you will, Whottt, LA just got better and as of now are the favorites, not SA.

I don't care how old Payton is...he's 35 and he's kept himself in great shape. LA can pick up some guys for the bench like Voshon Lenard, Jim Jackson, Peeler, etc to give them a break in the backcourt.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:32 AM
Arch..if Kidd is willing to sign for what I heard the Spurs offered him you may as well do it. I wish it was the years that were shorter though.

What happens if blow our cap on Kidd and screw our future and still aren't able to take down this Laker monster?

In a way doesn't it make sense to ride it out with our guys this year and beging our dynasty next year?

I am pissed we didn't get Payton..every one is acting like LA created this greatest team of all time...hell we could have signed both of these guys and kept our future intact...and no one really seemed to like that idea.

I have always wanted Payton over Kidd for a short term deal. He's a much better fit for our team..like I said earlier, the only thing Kidd does better than GP is about 3 rebounds per game.

This Laker Team is gonna be a half court monster...GP runs the pick N roll almost as well as Stockton..basically LA just added the Utah Jazz to Kobe and Shaq for about 6 million dollars.

There's probably no stopping that team this year.

Archie
07-09-2003, 01:35 AM
The cap room is likely gone after this summer why worry about what happens in 2010? The point is to be in the hunt from now until then for that is Duncan's prime.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:35 AM
Arch I know how good Payton is I have been saying for us to get him over Kidd all year long. You are preaching to the converted..and I agree there's probably not anyone we can get without O'neal or Brand that is gonna be able to stop this team without a little luck. But I tell you what, they are still gonna have to double Duncan, and if we get great shooters we can still take em out.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:38 AM
Not true, I know I have seen Baseline Bum, in one of his non Kiddloving moods, outline a plan for getting a top FA next year. A young one that provides scoring and lots of other stuff as well.

Archie
07-09-2003, 01:39 AM
Yet if they get a Kidd then the Spurs' perimeter just improved significantly. The Spurs have a great group of young perimeter talent that fits in well with Kidd's game. The trick will be adding that big. Depending on how long of a contract they are offering they could nab a PJ Brown, Malone, or Mourning as their big.

Archie
07-09-2003, 01:41 AM
The only way that happens is for the Spurs to lose Jack and Clax. Plus the would only be able to offer one year deals to fill out the supporting cast this summer. They would be hard pressed to retain max cap flexibility for 2004-05. It's now or never.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:45 AM
Hmmm isn't it dependent on what the cap is set at as well?

I just never bought into getting the best available FA when you have a young championship team that needs one key position filled.

And also Duncan is signing for less than expected and Jax is willing too also. Technically, don't we get Jax's Bird rights after this year?

Maybe we do lose Jax which I am against but I think I have seen a plan that doesn't cost us Jax.

If Kidd is willing to sign for what the Spurs offered you can't turn it down..let him get his ring and then trade him to GS.

Archie
07-09-2003, 01:55 AM
The thing to remember is that the Spurs had what it took to win a title last season. Things change. You cannot count on your current mix being sufficient going forward.

Duncan's signing for less than expected simply to show his commitment to SA in free agency. And it's not like he gave the Spurs some huge windfall today.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:58 AM
I am not gonna argue with you on cap issues I don't shit about the cap. But I have seen the plan. And yes I know the situation changes but I have wanted Payton over Kidd all along. If we go after Payton for short term the situation doesn't change quite as much.

Archie
07-09-2003, 02:01 AM
Basically they would have to wave the white flag for this upcoming season. And you just gave up your chance to add franchise level talent for a hope. No thanks.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 10:34 AM
This is a sad day for me. I have coveted Payton for years and now he has signed on for the MLE with the vile Lakers. Awful. :cry

This is simple, people.

Malone >> Walker/Horry/Madsen

Payton >> Fisher

You can claim that Payton and Malone are not superstars anymore or that they won't adjust, but the Lakers should come close to 70 games on sheer talent alone.

:cooldevil

MI21
07-09-2003, 10:41 AM
Agreed Ghost.

I have noticed that me and you have both been posting that the fact that the Spurs have saved up for a couple of seasons to have this money to sign some major talent to surround Duncan with, and the Lakers may end up with better, but probably as good a pickups as our beloved Spurs will, with only 5 Mill to spend, sucks very hard.

I cant belive it actually. :(

adidas11
07-09-2003, 11:11 AM
Whott, again you over overrating age, and it's impact on a team.

Yes, Malone and Payton are older players, but they are not going to be expected to play 40 minutes a night (and they're both in excellent shape, so they actually could play extensive minutes anyhow!) But the key is that they will have competent backups, players who have started and won championships (Fisher and possibly Horry) And the Lakers also have an excellent balance of younger and older players on the team. They pushed a superior Spurs team this past playoffs to six games, and even had a realistic chance to win the series if Horry's shot goes down in game 5. Now they have upgraded both talent-wise, and depth wise with Payton and Malone. Without a doubt, they will be very strong contenders to win the championship next year.

And remember, they still have Kobe and Shaq, who both made 1st Team All NBA last season. You place those two with a bunch of scrubs, and they're a threat to beat anyone. Now you place them alongside Payton and Malone????? Come on now...even you Whott have to realize the significance of this, and not let homerism cloud your judgement.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 11:16 AM
Adidas you need to pull your head out and learn to read.

When and where have I said that these moves for LA are not signifigant? I made it quite clear I think they are the team to beat. I also pointed out what I think are their only weaknesses. You don't think they're weaknesses and that's your perogative..I however do think age is going to be a factor if anything is, and I point to the lack of 40 year olds in the NBA as proof of this.

adidas11
07-09-2003, 11:23 AM
Fair enough.

All I'm saying is it isn't like the Lakers are stocked with 40 year olds. They'll have one (1) in Karl Malone. Then they'll have 3 players in their mid 30s in Fox, Payton, and possibly Horry. Remember, Horry will be in a reduced role again for much of the regular season, and Fox is on the shelf until at least January, maybe even longer. Then you have a player in his prime in Shaq (who does need to show up in better shape this upcoming season, from the start). After that, the rest of the team is very young. Fisher, Kobe, Madsen, rookies, Devean George. Remember, the Spurs won the championship this past year, WITH AN OLDER LINEUP OVERALL, than what the Lakers will be fielding next year. Robinson, Willis, Kerr, Bowen, they all played important roles in San Antonio's championship run.

The Lakers didn't get killed on transition defense this past season. They got killed in half court defense, and defending the 3 point shot. That is the point that I'm trying to make.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 11:24 AM
I think Whott is looking for hope, that's all.

We have to hope that this is the year that Malone actually spends time on the IR and that Payton exhibits more than just a lost step or two.

No one is taking anything away from the sheer talent of those two stars. If someone is, he's a dipsh1t like IceMan.

:cooldevil

HollywoodKobe
07-09-2003, 12:45 PM
Excellent posts everyone. One thing that is good is the ZenMaster will be in control of it all. That's what makes me confident that these pieces will fit. This team will remind me of the late 90s Bulls teams. MJ, Pippen and Rodman - all vets, a step slower, but much wiser much like Shaq, Payton and Malone. Throw in a still improving NBA superstar Kobe Bryant and we may have something historical here.

Either way, the NBA and the West in particular is becoming even more competitive than in the 80s. Lakers, Spurs, Mavs and Kings - these are all teams that have legitimate shots at the title. And each team is now improving every year and stacking up talent against one another. It's going to be a dogfight this year. And the off-season moves are just beginning.

obie
07-09-2003, 04:22 PM
First lets look at Payton.
Yes hes a supreme upgrade over Derek Fisher. But he is no longer a superstar.
20 PPG, 8.3 APG. He's 13th in efficiency, 2nd in assists, only to Jason Kidd. He was 15th in the league in double doubles with 28, most of any point guard other than Kidd. He IS stiill a superstar.


His defense is one of the most overrated in the league, he has lost several steps and can't defend any of the quicker points in the league
NBA All-Defense Team 9-years in a row. He can take some pressure off Kobe on guarding the best defender on the other team. 13th in the NBA in steals. Just because he is 35 doesn't mean he can't play defense. He still plays 40+ minutes a game as well.


Both he and Kobe have to dominate the ball so there will be "some" conflict there.
Already addressed this point in my last post... Payton wants to win.


In the end he can easily be a reliable 3rd scorer who can give them 15 points a night but this is just going to be another Glen Rice move that everyone thought would make them invincible.
Yes, a very reliable 3rd scorer who can run the break and play great defense. And Glen Rice has never lost a playoff series in a full season as a Laker, I would call that invincible.


As for Malone, lets assume they get him.
He cannot play in the triangle, lets just get that out of the way right now.
Tell me why? I would say he's a perfect fit for the triangle, and while I am no expert on the offense, I have read Tex Winter's book on it and would consider myself fairly knowledgable on the principles of the offense. Give me a reason why he "cannot play in the triangle".


He cannot play defense anymore.
Malone is a strong PF who can play defense. While he is not a premier defender, he is a veteren (so he gets calls) and he can get the job done. Sure, he cannot stop Tim Duncan (can anyone?), but you also have Shaq. It is definetely an upgrade over Horry. Also,11th in the league in steals last season. The most for any PF in the NBA. Thats incredible for a big man of his age.


He can't rebound. That is what the Lakers need and want from their pf rebounding and defense
Averaged almost 8 rebounds per game. He is an outstandinig defensive rebounder, 10th in the league. Sure, hes not a hustler who is gonna go to the offensive boards and get you some like Madsen and Walker, but he bring the Lakers what they need.


I don't see how people can deny that these additions help the Lakers. 70 wins may be a stretch, but if everyone stays healthy, it is possible.

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:24 PM
The thing that Malone would bring is that LA could rest O'Neal more because they would have another legit low post player. That and his jumper.

Payton is the more valuable acquisition for them.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 04:31 PM
I disagree. I actually think a backcourt mate of Payton's ability could hinder Kobe's "selfish" offensive game.

What the Lakers ahve been lacking is a credible PF to go against the Western power forwards like Wallace, Webber and Duncan.

Malone will give the Lakers a third scorer and someone who can help Shaq rebound and defend down low.

That will be huge for the Lakers.

I'm not going to get in adebate here, but I feared Malone landing on the Lkaers more than Payton even though I love Payton and he is the better player today.

:cooldevil

adidas11
07-09-2003, 04:32 PM
Another key about Malone, is that the Lakers will only be paying him the veterans minimum. If for some reason Malone doesn't work out in LA in terms of performance, then LA can easily cut their loses, and let him go (ala Mitch Richmond and J.R. Rider) He by no means ties them down for the extended future.

For what they are paying, picking up Malone AND Payton is huge. Talk about getting your money's worth!

timvp
07-09-2003, 04:35 PM
Hopefully they turn into Portland South.

But having four first ballot HOFers can't be bad.

adidas11
07-09-2003, 04:37 PM
The difference between Portland and LA is that once Portland realized their mix of players wasn't going to work, they still couldn't get rid of bad contracts (Damon Stoudamire for example). For the Lakers, they are paying next to nothing for both Payton and Malone, considering their talent level. They can easily cut their loses and move on, if this mix of players does not work.

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:39 PM
Payton gives LA the playmaker they didn't have outside of Kobe himself...in addition to a reliable 3rd scorer on the perimeter. Payton can get the whole damn team involved. You are blind if you think Malone is more valuable than Payton.

ChumpDumper
07-09-2003, 04:46 PM
I'm not going to get in a debate here....
:rollin

obie
07-09-2003, 05:02 PM
His defense is one of the most overrated in the league, he has lost several steps and can't defend any of the quicker points in the league

Vs. Tony Parker, Nov. 24th

GP: 24 points, 10 for 21, 48% FG, 11 Assists
TP: 16 points, 7 for 20, 35% FG, 5 assists (Parker 14% from 3 pt.

Vs. Jason Kidd, Dec. 1st

GP: 28 points, 13 for 19, 68% FG, 4 assists
JK: 27 points, 9 for 22, 41% FG, 8 assists


OTHER GAMES:

Dec. 23: Stephon Marbury - 8 Points, 3 of 12, 25% FG
Jan. 19: Steve Nash - 14 points, 4-13, 31% FG

These are just a few of the defensive efforts where GP holds some of the leauges "quicker point guards" to totals way below their averages.

To say Payton is a poor defender is a joke.

--Obie:music

obie
07-09-2003, 05:05 PM
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Nowitzki (if you call him a PF)
4. Webber
5. 'Sheed

Garnett - Small Forward
Nowitzki - Small Forward

Malone is top 5 any way you look at it.


--obie:music

ProfessorFabry
07-09-2003, 06:25 PM
Malone top 5, maybe a few years ago obie, but now there are at least 5 guys better then him. Duncan, J. O'neal, Elton Brand, Chris Webber, and Kenyon Martin. And I didnt even use Garnett or Dirk even though they are PF's.


So why dont you just jump off the damn malone/Payton bandwagon and stop saying players are better then they are just cause they are on your favorite Team...(You dont here me saying Pau Gasol is the best international player around just cause I like the grizzlies) A week ago you would have said malone is too old and needs to retire.

adidas11
07-09-2003, 06:29 PM
It would be important for Malone to be a top 5 PF, if he was the focal point of the Lakers. But he isn't going to be asked to produce superstar type numbers, so why is the fact that Duncan or Webber is superior to Malone to important to most people? Malone is coming in to be a ROLE player, and he's definitely an upgrade over Horry as a starter.

scott
07-09-2003, 06:35 PM
When you have Shaq and Kobe on your team- picking up Malik Rose to be your starting 4 and Speedy Claxton to be your starting 1 would be a great offseason.

When you have Shaq and Kobe on your team- picking up Karl Malone to be your 4 and Gary Payton to be your 1 for chump change is one of the biggest coups in NBA history.

Great time to be a Laker fan.

ProfessorFabry
07-09-2003, 07:07 PM
Just to clarify my comment, I think Malone and Payton are great additions to any team, and can only make the lakers better. But Obie was going on and on about how malone is a top 5 PF and the fact of the matter is that he was a top 5 pf and possibly one of the top 5 PF's of all time, but in 2003 malone probably isnt even top 10. that doesnt mean he wont be effective, and when you start talking about Malone being the 3rd or 4th option on a team, well thats just scary...

LittleGeneral
07-09-2003, 07:35 PM
obie, Garnett and Nowitzki are both clearly power forwards (despite the fact that they can and have played the small forward position. Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki, Webber, R. Wallace, Brand, J. O'Neal, and B. Wallace are all better than Malone.

Get with it.

obie
07-09-2003, 11:26 PM
Ok, its hard to say this, but i guess i was wrong

Nowitzki and Garnett would be SF ideally. Their current situations have them at Power Forward, but in terms of the way they play, I would classify them as SF. But, technically, they are PF's.

Malone is probably not top 5. He is in my opinion definetely top 10. But, Adidas is right, they don't need him to put up Top 5 or even Top 10 numbers.

He is a perfect fit for the Lakers, Professor. You cannot deny this.

--obie:music

obie
07-09-2003, 11:34 PM
Just wondering:

How did that quote from Iceman Cometh make it to the front page of the website? It was complete crap.

--Obie:music

ProfessorFabry
07-10-2003, 12:02 AM
Obie, First off, that quote is better than anything you have ever said, or ever will say for that matter.


Malone and payton a perfect fit? I dont know about that, but when you take into consideration the amount of cap space they had it was about as close to perfect as possible. I dont think they could have gotton anyone else that good to play for that little of money. But if you are trying to say that if the lakers had as much cap room as the spurs or nuggets that they would go after malone and payton instead of other free agents you are sorely mistaken. I mean i would think they would rather go with younger guys. For example Im sure Gilbert Arenas would love to come home to L.A. to play for the lakers, and he would fit in well there. And assuming the clips would let him go Im sure any NBA team would take Brand over Malone. So ya post something else buddy, cause Im a little bored and you make it so easy to make you look dumb...




Untill the next Obie post....

The Professor

obie
07-10-2003, 12:39 AM
hahaha is this guy joking?


Malone and payton a perfect fit? I dont know about that, but when you take into consideration the amount of cap space they had it was about as close to perfect as possible.
is that not what i said?



I mean i would think they would rather go with younger guys. For example Im sure Gilbert Arenas would love to come home to L.A. to play for the lakers, and he would fit in well there. And assuming the clips would let him go Im sure any NBA team would take Brand over Malone.
Actually, I don't think the Lakers need younger guys. They are not taking a long term (meaning 5+ years) view at this. They are looking for the next 2-4 seasons. Shaq has a few more years left, as well as Phil and most of the supporting cast. 5 years from now the Lakers will be a completely different team, and hopefully they will build around Kobe.

But they are not rebuilding right now, they are re-loading. They don't want to bring in Gilbert Arenas and Elton Brand. While Malone and Payton are not as athletic and might not be able to score as much, they bring something that the young guys do not. The Lakers need guys that are not hungry for the ball as much as they are hungry for a ring.



And regardless, it is a mute point, because the Lakers do not have the money to get these guys. When I said "perfect fit", I meant perfect for the situation the Lakers are in. If you had some common sense, you would understand this. Or maybe perfect would be signing Tim Duncan and Jason Kidd for minimum, and trading Rick Fox for KG straight up. Gimme a break man.


So ya post something else buddy, cause Im a little bored and you make it so easy to make you look dumb...
hmmm.... :cry


Stop the personal attacks and use some common sense. I just hope your not going to be a lawyer.

--Obie:music

ProfessorFabry
07-10-2003, 12:57 AM
Obie, I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. Elton Brand is a great fit for the Lakers. He doesnt demand the ball. He hits the boards hard, and im sure if you asked him he would say he would rather be a 3rd option and see his points go down some to really contribute to a team that wins a championship. I mean its not like he has a chance to be the NBA's all time leading scorer or anything. Ya malone wants the ring more, but I think that the scoring title still would mean a lot to him. the lakers dont need leadership. They allready have it in Shaq and Kobe. I think they would have just as good if not a better shot at winning it all with arenas and brand as opposed to malone and payton, plus by doing that they would get guys who can play in the future along side kobe. Of course this whole topic is stupid seeing as how the lakers cant sign those guys, and I think we both agree that the lakers did as well as they could possibly do given there situation. Next time be a little more carefull about throwing around the word perfect so we wont have misunderstandings like this.

And as for the personal attacks, tell ya what, I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. I mean come on man, look at your posts, I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.





but hey all jokes aside, I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid.....


The Professor

adidas11
07-10-2003, 01:16 AM
Riiiiiiight. I'm sure Elton Brand would love to be the 3rd or 4th option on a team, when he as it the age when he is playing for max contracts and such.

Like it or not, these were HUGE pick ups for LA. And obie is correct. This move is NOT for the long term, but for the next 2 to 3 years. They are trying to maximize the Shaq/Kobe union as long as they can, and all they need to do is reload each year when it's possible. The Lakers could not have asked for a better offseason than this. As long as Payton and Malone are willing to settle in as role players, they can be very effective, so now the Lakers are essentially above average at every position on the floor, besides small forward. And if Rick Fox makes it back healthy, they'll have an excellent rotation with two small forwards who both play solid defense (Fox and George)

SAmikeyp
07-10-2003, 01:31 AM
As long as Payton and Malone are willing to settle in as role players, they can be very effective

aye......there's the rub. Can they? We can all speculate but it remains to be seen, if they can pull it off, 4 titles in 5 years.

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 10:40 AM
"Payton gives LA the playmaker they didn't have outside of Kobe himself...in addition to a reliable 3rd scorer on the perimeter. Payton can get the whole damn team involved. You are blind if you think Malone is more valuable than Payton." — Archie
Not exactly.

Payton > Malone

For what the Lakers needed, Malone is more of the necessity.

Next.




:cooldevil

adidas11
07-10-2003, 01:13 PM
Quote: "For what the Lakers needed, Malone is more of the necessity."

Especially for their current situation. Techinically, the Lakers do not have a power forward on their roster, since they "let go" Robert Horry for the time being. Malone is the more important pickup position wise.

obie
07-10-2003, 01:38 PM
The Lakers could not have asked for a better offseason than this.Couldn't have said it better myself. I would say it was pretty damn close to "perfect" for the Lakers.


Elton Brand is a great fit for the Lakers. He doesnt demand the ball. He hits the boards hard, and im sure if you asked him he would say he would rather be a 3rd option and see his points go down some to really contribute to a team that wins a championship.
Elton Brand took 900 shots last year. A Lakers PF can take 400, maybe 500 shots a year, but they aren't going to get the touches that a young, aspiring superstar would like. I wouldn't think Malone would work either, except for that fact that he is making this choice to be in a lesser role for a championship. He is at this point in his career where he has shown what he can do individually, and now he wants to win. I don't think Brand would want this kind of a role at this point in his career.


Ya malone wants the ring more, but I think that the scoring title still would mean a lot to him. Malone is not going to sign with the Lakers and expect to score enough to break the record. He is making a decision between the two.


the lakers dont need leadership. it can't hurt. payton and malone each have two trips to the finals. they've been there.


I mean come on man, look at your posts, I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce. WTF???

--obie:music

DuffMcCartney
07-10-2003, 01:46 PM
Lakers moves dont scare me at all.

Man in Black1
07-10-2003, 02:49 PM
:brotha


The Spurs' strategy for defending LA was to let Shaq and Kobe get theirs and shut down the supporting cast. The method was to use Bowen's D on Kobe to force Kobe to work for his while staying at home on the other Lakers. Say what you will, but GP is still a pretty damn good 1 on 1 player.

For you Tony Parker idol worshippers, that would mean that he gets to face the full intensity of 1 Gary Payton. Its funny that some posters say that GP was used & abused by TP in that playoff series. I beg to differ but hope that that shit can happen for real if it comes down to it.

That defensive philosophy must continue. 4 down slow ball is the only way to keep the games within reach but having a transition game to offset it would be an advantage.

Shitt yeah... Heart is what matters.

CosmicCowboyXXX
07-10-2003, 03:23 PM
Lakers moves dont scare me at all.

Duff, this is a joke, right?




For you Tony Parker idol worshippers, that would mean that he gets to face the full intensity of 1 Gary Payton. Its funny that some posters say that GP was used & abused by TP in that playoff series. I beg to differ but hope that that shit can happen for real if it comes down to it.

exactly, Kohai...

the Sonics game plan was to double Payton on duncan and make Parker beat them...Payton was hardly used and abused by parker in that series...

Not even counting the improved offense, this Lakers team should be a GREAT defensive team...they will give turnover prone teams like the Spurs fits...:(

Archie
07-10-2003, 03:25 PM
Exactly CC. Nets had that same strategy for the first few games in the Finals. TP went off. By Game 6 TP was watching the end of the game on the bench.

adidas11
07-10-2003, 04:33 PM
I love it how when a homeristic poster looks at the statline, and a player puts up good numbers, they assume that Tony Paker "abused" Gary Payton. Tony Parker wasn't the focus of Payton's defense in that series, just as Parker wasn't the focus until later on the the Spurs/Nets series with Jason Kidd.

A player really shows his "stuff" when the opposing team decides to take away what that player does best. When this has happened to Tony Parker, he has put up poor numbers.

DuffMcCartney
07-10-2003, 04:52 PM
Duff, this is a joke, right?

No.