$15 minimum wage looks more possible

[RandomGuy]

CBO study notes an aspect of that raise would mean it could be passed by reconciliation, bypassing the fascist party objections in the Senate.

CBO Report:
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/56975

NYT article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/us/politics/minimum-wage-cbo.html

Minimum Wage Hike Would Help Poverty but Cost Jobs, Budget Office Say

WASHINGTON — Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour — a proposal included in the package of relief measures being pushed by President Biden — would add $54 billion to the budget deficit over the next decade, the Congressional Budget Office concluded on Monday.

Normally, a prediction of increased debt might harm the plan’s political chances. But proponents of the wage hike seized on the forecast as evidence that the hotly contested proposal could survive a procedural challenge under the Senate’s arcane rules.

Democrats are trying to add the measure to a $1.9 trillion pandemic relief package that is advancing through a process called budget reconciliation, which requires a simple majority rather than the 60-vote margin to overcome a filibuster. But reconciliation is reserved for matters with a significant budgetary effect.

Senator Bernie Sanders, the Vermont independent, said the forecast of an increased deficit showed that the measure passed the test. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 “would have a direct and substantial impact on the federal budget,” he said in a statement. “What that means is we can clearly raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour under the rules.”

-------------------------------------------------------

[boutons_deux]

Lots of criticism about that CBO report for putting its thumb on the scale and highlighting negative reports while hiding the positive gains of raising the minimum wage

If Trump repug people are running the CBO then it has absolutely no credibility

[pgardn]

I am not close to an economist, but some of the most vulnerable small businesses in places like South Texas or not going to be able to handle this.

It has always been a problem legislating equality in wealth. I would think tax cuts for the richest are not the way to go, but beyond this and a few other things this is always been tough. This requires a cultural change beyond me myself and I imo.

If you read many red team members responses under Trump then it’s pretty clear the culture is dogs eat dogs. How you change this, I have a not a clue. They truly believe this pseudo-Darwinian “I got to get mine first at the expense of others”

* Foot note

Many of these people claim to be Christians.

[Winehole23]

CBO study notes an aspect of that raise would mean it could be passed by reconciliation, bypassing the fascist party objections in the Senate.

CBO Report:
https://www.cbo.gov/publication/56975

NYT article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/us/politics/minimum-wage-cbo.html

Minimum Wage Hike Would Help Poverty but Cost Jobs, Budget Office Say

WASHINGTON — Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour — a proposal included in the package of relief measures being pushed by President Biden — would add $54 billion to the budget deficit over the next decade, the Congressional Budget Office concluded on Monday.

Normally, a prediction of increased debt might harm the plan’s political chances. But proponents of the wage hike seized on the forecast as evidence that the hotly contested proposal could survive a procedural challenge under the Senate’s arcane rules.

Democrats are trying to add the measure to a $1.9 trillion pandemic relief package that is advancing through a process called budget reconciliation, which requires a simple majority rather than the 60-vote margin to overcome a filibuster. But reconciliation is reserved for matters with a significant budgetary effect.

Senator Bernie Sanders, the Vermont independent, said the forecast of an increased deficit showed that the measure passed the test. Raising the federal minimum wage to $15 “would have a direct and substantial impact on the federal budget,” he said in a statement. “What that means is we can clearly raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour under the rules.”

-------------------------------------------------------

should have been 15 dollars 10 years ago.

as others have pointed out, a one size fits all living wage is not going be a good fit in communities where the general standard of living is lower.

[RandomGuy]

This country's CEOs have increased their own pay by 1000 percent in the last 40 years. Meanwhile our workers have the worst benefits of any wealthy nation. Right now those CEOs are out there saying that raising the minimum wage from a pitiful $7.25 an hour to a barely liveable $15/hour will cost jobs.
But if we're barely compensating those workers in the first place, and raising pay for people will "cost jobs" *while these CEOs keep raising their own pay,* BY DEFINITION THAT OUTRAGEOUS CEO PAY IS THE THING THAT IS COSTING JOBS.
:tu

[RandomGuy]

phased in too slowly to make a difference, tbh.

should have been 15 dollars 10 years ago.

Agree to some extent. Not ideal, but all for whatever can get passed. Better than nothing.

[RandomGuy]

I am not close to an economist, but some of the most vulnerable small businesses in places like South Texas or not going to be able to handle this.

It has always been a problem legislating equality in wealth. I would think tax cuts for the richest are not the way to go, but beyond this and a few other things this is always been tough. This requires a cultural change beyond me myself and I imo.

If you read many red team members responses under Trump then it’s pretty clear the culture is dogs eat dogs. How you change this, I have a not a clue. They truly believe this pseudo-Darwinian “I got to get mine first at the expense of others”

* Foot note

Many of these people claim to be Christians.

They will simply raise prices, and oddly, many of their customers will be able to afford that. :)

Not the doom many think. THere will be anecdotes of businesses closing, and they will be endlessly parroted on fascist media outlets, but they will be offset by the millions of people who will benefit.

There will be a net job loss, but it will be from people who now don't have to work 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet.

[boutons_deux]

Congressional Budget Office is 'putting its thumb on the scale' in its minimum wage predictions

the CBO ignored the bulk of the economic research showing what has already happened as a result of minimum wage increases.

The CBO agrees with the best available economic research that a lot of people will get raises as a result of a gradual increase to $15, and projects 900,000 will be lifted out of poverty.

But the CBO projects a number of job losses—1.4 million—

that is simply not supported by the cutting edge research into, again, what has already happened.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/2/9/2014727/-Raising-the-minimum-wage-will-lift-hundreds-of-thousands-of-people-out-of-poverty

Phillip Swagel is a Republican but has a bipartisan career.
===================

McDonald's CEO: Chain will do 'just fine' with higher wages


https://www.restaurantdive.com/news/mcdonalds-ceo-chain-will-do-just-fine-with-higher-wages/594182/

[RandomGuy]

Congressional Budget Office is 'putting its thumb on the scale' in its minimum wage predictions

the CBO ignored the bulk of the economic research showing what has already happened as a result of minimum wage increases.

The CBO agrees with the best available economic research that a lot of people will get raises as a result of a gradual increase to $15, and projects 900,000 will be lifted out of poverty.

But the CBO projects a number of job losses—1.4 million—

that is simply not supported by the cutting edge research into, again, what has already happened.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/2/9/2014727/-Raising-the-minimum-wage-will-lift-hundreds-of-thousands-of-people-out-of-poverty

Phillip Swagel is a Republican but has a bipartisan career.
===================

McDonald's CEO: Chain will do 'just fine' with higher wages


https://www.restaurantdive.com/news/mcdonalds-ceo-chain-will-do-just-fine-with-higher-wages/594182/

That was my thoughts as well, just haven't had time to delve back into the research. There will be a lot of "jobs" lost, but that will be offset by people not having to work "extra" jobs, i.e. withdrawing from the labor force.

Net effect on overall employment will be pretty minor, since that is what has happened in places in the US where the wage was raised.

There will be no shortage of anecdotes about harm. There is a cost to this.

I am 100% sure that those anecdotes will be endlessly parroted by the fascist media outlets.

[boutons_deux]

John Thune's childhood $6 wage—$24 adjusted for inflation—sure helps make the case for at least $15

"I started working

by bussing tables at the Star Family Restaurant for $1/hour and slowly moved up to cook—the big leagues for a kid like me—

to earn $6/hour,"

Thune, born in 1961, started earning $6 an hour, the seemingly modest wage he pulled in as a teenager

would be equivalent to roughly $25 today. :lol

https://www.rawstory.com/john-thunes-childhood-6-wage-24-adjusted-for-inflation-sure-helps-make-the-case-for-at-least-15

Maybe South Dakotans are THAT DUMB

[pgardn]

They will simply raise prices, and oddly, many of their customers will be able to afford that. :)

Not the doom many think. THere will be anecdotes of businesses closing, and they will be endlessly parroted on fascist media outlets, but they will be offset by the millions of people who will benefit.

There will be a net job loss, but it will be from people who now don't have to work 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet.

$15 an hour is nowhere near enough for some areas, and I could live quite well in Aransas Pass for this much. there needs to be some cost-of-living adjustment and I have not the foggiest idea how to do it, that’s for the economists and other people who understand the different regions. seems like it would be a big mess though.

[ducks]

USA USA
Raise alll prices will not matter
Why to go donkeys

[Millennial_Messiah]

$15 an hour is nowhere near enough for some areas, and I could live quite well in Aransas Pass for this much. there needs to be some cost-of-living adjustment and I have not the foggiest idea how to do it, that’s for the economists and other people who understand the different regions. seems like it would be a big mess though.

It'd be downright stupid to make it $15 minimum at the FEDERAL level which would bankrupt the poor and rural communities, not to mention cause mass inflation there which is bad for everyone except the filthy rich jews.

What should be done is give each individual jurisdiction / city limit the opportunity to raise local minimum wages UP TO $15 an hour... for example, a federal law requiring say, a $10+ minimum wage for all cities with 500K+ population, would be reasonable.

But a one-size-fits-all more-than-doubled federal minimum wage for the entire USA, aka the most diverse nation in the history of the universe, is downright moronic, retarded, crippling, and ignorant.

[boutons_deux]

$15 an hour is nowhere near enough for some areas, and I could live quite well in Aransas Pass for this much. there needs to be some cost-of-living adjustment and I have not the foggiest idea how to do it, that’s for the economists and other people who understand the different regions. seems like it would be a big mess though.

Cost of Living Indexes by city or region are very well developed, and available from many sources, for US and foreign cities.

CoL indexes may be already used by govt relocations and certainly by companies. not at mysterious

[Millennial_Messiah]

Cost of Living Indexes by city or region are very well developed, and available from many sources, for US and foreign cities.

CoL indexes may be already used by govt relocations and certainly by companies. not at mysterious
When those Indian scum guzzler recruiters tell me the salary for IT Job X is $125K in Texas, but if I relocate to Bay Area, California the salary is $132K because of "cost of living adjustment".

I just hang up the phone, and laugh my a$$ off.

[Winehole23]

Costco just jumped on board.

[RandomGuy]

It'd be downright stupid to make it $15 minimum at the FEDERAL level which would bankrupt the poor and rural communities, not to mention cause mass inflation there which is bad for everyone except the filthy rich jews.

What should be done is give each individual jurisdiction / city limit the opportunity to raise local minimum wages UP TO $15 an hour... for example, a federal law requiring say, a $10+ minimum wage for all cities with 500K+ population, would be reasonable.

But a one-size-fits-all more-than-doubled federal minimum wage for the entire USA, aka the most diverse nation in the history of the universe, is downright moronic, retarded, crippling, and ignorant.

It won't cause mass inflation nationally, any more than it caused inflation in the states where it was implemented.

Economics fail.

[ducks]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/801170172723462204/812600685551026186/a0700e3c3123f6dd.jpg

[Dirks_Finale]

Yeah hard to imagine a $15 minimum wage in West Virginia. No wonder why Manchin won't sign off on this.

What sucks about politicians is it has to be all or nothing. Why not negotiate a $12 minimum wage instead? (I think 10 is too low even for WV or Kentucky. )


It'd be downright stupid to make it $15 minimum at the FEDERAL level which would bankrupt the poor and rural communities, not to mention cause mass inflation there which is bad for everyone except the filthy rich jews.

What should be done is give each individual jurisdiction / city limit the opportunity to raise local minimum wages UP TO $15 an hour... for example, a federal law requiring say, a $10+ minimum wage for all cities with 500K+ population, would be reasonable.

But a one-size-fits-all more-than-doubled federal minimum wage for the entire USA, aka the most diverse nation in the history of the universe, is downright moronic, retarded, crippling, and ignorant.

[DarrinS]

$15 an hour is nowhere near enough for some areas, and I could live quite well in Aransas Pass for this much. there needs to be some cost-of-living adjustment and I have not the foggiest idea how to do it, that’s for the economists and other people who understand the different regions. seems like it would be a big mess though.

A minimum wage that doesn't factor cost of living doesn't make sense.

[Leetonidas]

I don't see what the big deal with raising minimum wage is, it's been stagnant long enough, and everything else has gone up. Min wage should go up with inflation. Just because Derp can live in his mom's basement off of 7.25 working at Olive Garden doesnt mean most people can

[DarrinS]

Current min wage by state

https://www.minimum-wage.org/wage-by-state

[DarrinS]

It was a bit over $3 when I was a teenager.

[baseline bum]

Yeah hard to imagine a $15 minimum wage in West Virginia. No wonder why Manchin won't sign off on this.

What sucks about politicians is it has to be all or nothing. Why not negotiate a $12 minimum wage instead? (I think 10 is too low even for WV or Kentucky. )

I think $12 is fair, it brings us back to where we were 50 years ago.

[FrostKing]

I am not close to an economist, but some of the most vulnerable small businesses in places like South Texas or not going to be able to handle this.

It has always been a problem legislating equality in wealth. I would think tax cuts for the richest are not the way to go, but beyond this and a few other things this is always been tough. This requires a cultural change beyond me myself and I imo.

If you read many red team members responses under Trump then it’s pretty clear the culture is dogs eat dogs. How you change this, I have a not a clue. They truly believe this pseudo-Darwinian “I got to get mine first at the expense of others”

* Foot note

Many of these people claim to be Christians.
Tens of millions of outsiders are being invited to the table so ya I should get mine first.

[RandomGuy]

A minimum wage that doesn't factor cost of living doesn't make sense.

Minimum wage hasn't done that in over a decade.

[ducks]

Min wage was suppose to be for 15 year olds to go to work and learn how to do a job and money
Not to raise a family on

You want more robots in store raise the min wage

[baseline bum]

Min wage was suppose to be for 15 year olds to go to work and learn how to do a job and money
Not to raise a family on

We live in service economy dumbass, the nation is built on shitty jobs. A $7.50 minimum wage pushes too much load onto the taxpayer through food stamps and Medicaid instead of ensuring a wage people can live on.

[ducks]

Wyoming is doing ok with that now

[ducks]

Why the hell does the federal gov need one
The states should have one for their economy not big federal government

[spurraider21]

Yeah hard to imagine a $15 minimum wage in West Virginia. No wonder why Manchin won't sign off on this.

What sucks about politicians is it has to be all or nothing. Why not negotiate a $12 minimum wage instead? (I think 10 is too low even for WV or Kentucky. )
i had to drive through a chunk of WV to pick up a car i bought. wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy to live there :lol, fucking dreadful place

[ducks]

The Senate parliamentarian has dealt a potentially lethal blow to Democrats’ drive to hike the minimum wage, deciding that the cherished progressive goal must fall from a massive COVID-19 relief bill the party is trying to speed through Congress, Democratic Senate aides said Thursday.

The finding by Elizabeth MacDonough, the chamber’s nonpartisan arbiter of its rules, comes as Democrats prepare for House approval Friday of an initial version of the $1.9 trillion package that still includes the minimum wage boost.

It also forces Democrats to make politically painful choices about what to do next on the minimum wage, which has long caused internal party rifts.

The Senate aides confirmed the parliamentarian's decision to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because it hadn't yet been released.

Progressives seeking to maximize Democratic control of the White House and Congress have wanted party leaders to push aggressively on the issue. The proposal would gradually raise the federal minimum wage to $15 over five years, well over the $7.25 in effect since 2009.

But Democratic Sens. Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona have voiced opposition to including the minimum wage hike in the relief bill, and other moderates have expressed concerns, too.

That suggests Democrats could well lack the strength they need for it to survive. Democrats control the 50-50 Senate with Vice President Kamala Harris’ tiebreaking vote and can’t lose any of their senators to prevail. Republicans solidly oppose the hike to $15.

[Thread]

The Senate parliamentarian has dealt a potentially lethal blow to Democrats’ drive to hike the minimum wage, deciding that the cherished progressive goal must fall from a massive COVID-19 relief bill the party is trying to speed through Congress, Democratic Senate aides said Thursday.

The finding by Elizabeth MacDonough, the chamber’s nonpartisan arbiter of its rules, comes as Democrats prepare for House approval Friday of an initial version of the $1.9 trillion package that still includes the minimum wage boost.

It also forces Democrats to make politically painful choices about what to do next on the minimum wage, which has long caused internal party rifts.

The Senate aides confirmed the parliamentarian's decision to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because it hadn't yet been released.

Progressives seeking to maximize Democratic control of the White House and Congress have wanted party leaders to push aggressively on the issue. The proposal would gradually raise the federal minimum wage to $15 over five years, well over the $7.25 in effect since 2009.

But Democratic Sens. Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona have voiced opposition to including the minimum wage hike in the relief bill, and other moderates have expressed concerns, too.

That suggests Democrats could well lack the strength they need for it to survive. Democrats control the 50-50 Senate with Vice President Kamala Harris’ tiebreaking vote and can’t lose any of their senators to prevail. Republicans solidly oppose the hike to $15.

I just want my 2800 smackers! I got my eye on a pair of 100 smacker slippers from that Jewish online shoe store, Hammacher,
Schellmer.

[Millennial_Messiah]

It won't cause mass inflation nationally, any more than it caused inflation in the states where it was implemented.

Economics fail.
It's economics fail to say that some podunk town in say, east Oklahoma where the average house costs literally 25k with an acre of land and crazy cheap property taxes, should be forced to pay $15 an hour W2 when the market rate for a minimum job like burger flipping, dishwashing or countertop cleaning (e.g. a high school / temporary job, not meant to be a livelihood in the first place... that's what the Left fails to understand about all this) is probably even less than the current federal minimum wage of $7.25.

One size fits all approach in a diverse AF nation in all aspects of the word "diverse" = epic fail.

I'm not against a $15 minimum wage in cities like SF / greater Silicon Valley, LA, NYC, Boston, even Chicago (because of the huge economic divide there), Denver, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, maybe Madison, parts of Connecticut/Rhode Island/New Jersey, etc. Generally high cost of living cities. (Other big cities like Dallas/Atlanta/Houston/Miami could go $12 but not $15 IMO because they are cheaper and save money on income taxes, IMO.)

But even then, minimum wage jobs are intended to be extra income for someone young and uneducated, basically elbow grease and a loss of work-virginity per se, character building, resume enhancement, learning to work under shitty managers, learning to deal with W2s and filing taxes, etc..... i.e., paid learning experiences for kids... not permanent careers. That's what the Left fails to understand in all this.

Minimum wage is meant to protect such employees from an extreme crash in the market value of cheap labor, such as the case in China et al., i.e. in Seattle the market equilibrium for minimum wage is probably north of $15 by this point, but in rural parts of the USA the market equilibrium for the same labor is probably closer to $5-6 per hour. Setting a price floor on a federal level is a dangerous precedent and a failure at basic arithmetic.

[RandomGuy]

It's economics fail to say that some podunk town in say, east Oklahoma where the average house costs literally 25k with an acre of land and crazy cheap property taxes, should be forced to pay $15 an hour W2 when the market rate for a minimum job like burger flipping, dishwashing or countertop cleaning (e.g. a high school / temporary job, not meant to be a livelihood in the first place... that's what the Left fails to understand about all this) is probably even less than the current federal minimum wage of $7.25.

One size fits all approach in a diverse AF nation in all aspects of the word "diverse" = epic fail.

I'm not against a $15 minimum wage in cities like SF / greater Silicon Valley, LA, NYC, Boston, even Chicago (because of the huge economic divide there), Denver, Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, maybe Madison, parts of Connecticut/Rhode Island/New Jersey, etc. Generally high cost of living cities. (Other big cities like Dallas/Atlanta/Houston/Miami could go $12 but not $15 IMO because they are cheaper and save money on income taxes, IMO.)

But even then, minimum wage jobs are intended to be extra income for someone young and uneducated, basically elbow grease and a loss of work-virginity per se, character building, resume enhancement, learning to work under shitty managers, learning to deal with W2s and filing taxes, etc..... i.e., paid learning experiences for kids... not permanent careers. That's what the Left fails to understand in all this.

Minimum wage is meant to protect such employees from an extreme crash in the market value of cheap labor, such as the case in China et al., i.e. in Seattle the market equilibrium for minimum wage is probably north of $15 by this point, but in rural parts of the USA the market equilibrium for the same labor is probably closer to $5-6 per hour. Setting a price floor on a federal level is a dangerous precedent and a failure at basic arithmetic.

1. The left understands economics better than the right. Don't give me that shit, and especially don't give me that shit unless you have actually read any of hte studies on the subject.

For better or worse we are in an integrated economic union.

If podunk places can't educate their kids, and provide good jobs for them... they lose out to cities. been that way since there have been cities. That is why economies do well when cities do well.

[boutons_deux]

1. The left understands economics better than the right. Don't give me that shit, and especially don't give me that shit unless you have actually read any of hte studies on the subject.

For better or worse we are in an integrated economic union.

If podunk places can't educate their kids, and provide good jobs for them... they lose out to cities. been that way since there have been cities. That is why economies do well when cities do well.

only 20% of Americans live in rural areas.

The Repugs "champion" them, but do nothing to help them, and much to hurt them.

eg, rural hospitals and clinics are closing, rural broadband is still a long way off

America is dominated by metropolitan agglomerations, has been urbanizing for 100+ years.

Better schools, health care access, jobs, socialization.

[hater]

:lmao neocon Biden taking a shit in libertards :lmao

[Reck]

:lmao neocon Biden taking a shit in libertards :lmao

He pushed for a 15 bucks an hour, dumbass.

[DarrinS]

1365135185927237633

:cry

[Reck]

1365135185927237633

:cry

They should run Bernie and see how that goes a third time.

[SnakeBoy]

We live in service economy dumbass, the nation is built on shitty jobs.

This is why need to MAGA

[boutons_deux]

Senate parliamentarian expresses opinions, not rules, is but an advisor to the VP

Constitution says Kamala Harris is the decider

Pelosi keeps $15 in the bill

[spurraider21]

1365135185927237633

:cry
damn, i was promised Marxism-Bidenism

[spurraider21]

this is what we were promised. what happened

https://i.gyazo.com/7b23d9ab17d34b14f116c704c4f9a02b.png

[SnakeBoy]

1365365921817243651

[Bogie]

1365365921817243651


Have you actually ever bought a sandwich with your own money? Or is that just another thing the mrs pays for?

[DMC]

1365135185927237633

:cry

It's not a surprise. The Return of the Establishment is what the left wanted.

[baseline bum]

It's not a surprise. The Return of the Establishment is what the left wanted.

LOL at the idea that Mitch McConnell isn't the establishment.

[ChumpDumper]

It's not a surprise. The Return of the Establishment is what the left wanted.What did you want when you voted for Biden?

Fake ignore incoming.

[ducks]

I want Mitch gone
Only thing Mitch did was get judges in
Other stuff he was useless

[boutons_deux]

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/153217053_4873106676115681_9082987015905511784_n.p ng?_nc_cat=1&ccb=3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=LnUg3xmc65YAX8ZsrNd&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=b6fb24772439a811fcad378ca43ebf9e&oe=60608AF8

[DMC]

LOL at the idea that Mitch McConnell isn't the establishment.

Left is more OK with Mitch than with Donald. Of course Mitch is establishment.

[baseline bum]

Left is more OK with Mitch than with Donald. Of course Mitch is establishment.

LOL Donald was just Mitch's useful idiot. Left not ok with McConnell no matter how many empty speeches he gives about being disgusted with Dear Nazi's actions.

[DMC]

LOL Donald was just Mitch's useful idiot. Left not ok with McConnell no matter how many empty speeches he gives about being disgusted with Dear Nazi's actions.

The left insisted on Joe. They brushed off Bernie again. They did it last time with that other establishment whore who lost.

[pgardn]

The left insisted on Joe. They brushed off Bernie again. They did it last time with that other establishment whore who lost.

Forgive the left for wanting the W and getting the idiot out.
It was anyone against a moron.

[Thread]

Forgive the left for wanting the W and getting the idiot out.
It was anyone against a moron.

That moron provided $2.29 per gallon gas. 28 days later I'm paying 3.10 a gallon gas under that illegitimate Biden.

[Thread]

Left is more OK with Mitch than with Donald. Of course Mitch is establishment.

D M C

[baseline bum]

The left insisted on Joe. They brushed off Bernie again. They did it last time with that other establishment whore who lost.

You were trying to imply the establishment ever left when it was firmly in control 2017-20.

[pgardn]

That moron provided $2.29 per gallon gas. 28 days later I'm paying 3.10 a gallon gas under that illegitimate Biden.

You think your moron had control of this?
You think he wanted to put the fracking in Texas into a break even communistic situation?
Thread...
You dont who controls what.

But we do agree an orange buffoon is gone.
You are ahead of derp on this end.

[Thread]

You think your moron had control of this?
You think he wanted to put the fracking in Texas into a break even communistic situation?
Thread...
You dont who controls what.

But we do agree an orange buffoon is gone.
You are ahead of derp on this end.

All I know is with Trump I paid $2.29.

Fuck me, I'm already at $3.10 with Biden and it's going over 4 and you know it.

Yeah, he's gone. We got COVID'ed. No COVID we get the other 4.
You lucked out.

[SnakeBoy]

Democrats' "Plan B" for minimum wage hike appears to be off the table
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/democrats-plan-b-for-minimum-wage-hike-appears-to-be-off-the-table/ar-BB1e7oMr?ocid=uxbndlbing

[boutons_deux]

https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=c5ffe9fe07&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-a:r-1716980828006643159&th=177f02830d697248&view=fimg&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ8CHrYN1QAlBCzNzPmQaHOkPY44wg4fteQO36W WyEQ8GT5URl2qU6mpLOJmAlqgd90I5evNrUvVZmqJaIxukxNin fPc_Q-13csmgDePARbcIua-PJx8SrBHyVI&disp=emb&realattid=ii_klr83hwa0

[DMC]

You were trying to imply the establishment ever left when it was firmly in control 2017-20.

Donald was anything but establishment. How could he not be, since he wasn't in office ever before whereas those other two, the old man and the whore, they have camped out there for a lifetime. What does "establishment" mean if not established?

[DMC]

On the eve of the first Super Tuesday earlier this month, the siren call went out to Republican donors. Donald Trump was barreling toward the Republican nomination, and the chance to stop him was slipping away.

Throughout 2015, many top-flight Republican donors had stayed on the sidelines, waiting for a clear establishment front-runner to emerge. Then the unthinkable happened: Trump stepped into the void and began slaying his rivals one by one. None of them could figure out how to stop him.


RELATED GALLERY

The incredible momentum of his campaign stunned America and shocked the Republican establishment. Not only did the political world underestimate Trump’s electoral strength; for months they belittled his candidacy with all its theatrics as a joke and failed to heed the signs of seismic change.

-CNN

How could the establishment shock the establishment?

Let me remind you also

https://www.customsigns.com/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/600x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/n/anyonebuttrump_yardsign.png

That's clamoring for the return of the establishment. Joe seals the deal.

Why hide from it or deny it?

[ChumpDumper]

DMC clamored for the return of the establishment.

[DMC]

ChumpDumper
Alleged Michigander

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[ChumpDumper]

DMC always fills the :cryI IGNORE U:cry bingo space when I post something that shits squarely in his mouth.

Then he fills the :cryU STILL RESPOND:cry and :cryU SAD I NOT:cry spaces.

[baseline bum]

Donald was anything but establishment. How could he not be, since he wasn't in office ever before whereas those other two, the old man and the whore, they have camped out there for a lifetime. What does "establishment" mean if not established?

Donald was a useful idiot for the Republican establishment, a pitchman for it at most. Hence the establishment was in power during his term. How is this difficult to see?

[boutons_deux]

Trump was puro Repug establishment, but blatant about it rather than dog-whistling and behind the curtain

Trump's Repug policies:

authoritarian/fascist

Euro-white Male Supremacy, flipside: misogyny

"blood and soil" nativism, xenophobia

"destruction of the administrative state", deregulation, neoliberalism, degrading EPA, D of Interior, D of state, DoJ politicized and no civil rights prosecutions, annulling consent decrees against lawless, racist, murderous cop dept.

Chauvinism of America First

Christian nationalism / supremacy

queering the Federal judiciary with incompetent, extreme right wing ideologues in robes, for life

puro Repug policies for decades

[DMC]

Donald was a useful idiot for the Republican establishment, a pitchman for it at most. Hence the establishment was in power during his term. How is this difficult to see?

Because the established politicians didn't win the presidential election. Seems pretty fucking cut and dry.

[baseline bum]

Because the established politicians didn't win the presidential election. Seems pretty fucking cut and dry.

Very fucking cut and dry that he was McConnell's useful idiot who handed the reigns to McConnell just like I said he would after 11/9.

[DMC]

Very fucking cut and dry that he was McConnell's useful idiot who handed the reigns to McConnell just like I said he would after 11/9.

So the left wanted an establishment dem in the oval office. They didn't want Bernie or Elizabeth or Tulsi or Bootyjudge. They wanted what they knew already, right back to the old ways. That's what I wanted too. I didn't really see any issues with the slower paced change process and really prefer the POTUS stay out of the press as much as possible.

[SnakeBoy]

7 Democrats shoot down $15 minimum wage
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/moderate-democrats-shoot-down-2415-minimum-wage/ar-BB1ehSGX?ocid=uxbndlbing

tldr Bernie says dis isn't ova

[Reck]

7 Democrats shoot down $15 minimum wage
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/moderate-democrats-shoot-down-2415-minimum-wage/ar-BB1ehSGX?ocid=uxbndlbing

tldr Bernie says dis isn't ova

Minimum wage is a worth while bill to at least discuss and vote on. It should happen down the line but clearly not the time and definitely should have never been propped up in the COVID bill.

[boutons_deux]

Joe Manchin, net worth $8M

$15/hour would help 1/4 million WVA workers

[SnakeBoy]

Sinema went full Maverick

https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIF.sHXDa9VqHzP9UiHgmEbJ0w?pid=ImgDet&rs=1

[Winehole23]

1367915067816222720

[boutons_deux]

The minimum-wage fiasco will hurt millions. But it will hit red states hardest.

More than 23.8 million people made less than $15 per hour in 2019,

around 12.4 million reside in the 22 states with two Republican senators, Brookings found. That number is more significant than it seems, since those states tend to be less populous.

By contrast, only 7.3 million of those workers live in the 23 states that have two Democratic senators. And the remaining 4.2 million live in states with one senator from each party or in D.C.

some of the states with the largest numbers of these low-wage workers, relative to their populations, are in the Deep South, the Midwest, and the Plains and Western states.

“Low-wage work is everywhere, but it’s increasingly a Southern and Midwestern problem, policy-wise,”

a lot of people in red states that have raised their minimum wages will still get left behind by Congress’s failure.

virtually all Democratic senators favor the $15 minimum wage, while just about all Republican senators oppose it.

Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.) and Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) opposed.

Their opposition is dispiriting: West Virginia is a very poor state, and as James Downie points out (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/02/28/democrats-cant-back-down-minimum-wage/?itid=lk_inline_manual_37),

Arizona has already passed one of the highest minimum wages in the country, so Sinema is denying the same benefit to others.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/03/minimum-wage-hurt-red-states-brookings (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/03/03/minimum-wage-hurt-red-states-brookings/?fbclid=IwAR39dPwC4zn4ZhOJQOK236hbeJbeisUZwLhI4WS2 7awfGhTgS1Xnjw_fMZU)

[boutons_deux]

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51117027_384117642416532_8560947372387991552_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=ic1fgadEe5sAX-Nl5NM&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=dd843ea59f9cb22121ec048a7a4b80b7&oe=606837F5

[DMC]

With a name like Cinema, you'd expect a show.

[Frenchfred]

USA USA
Raise alll prices will not matter
Why to go donkeys

so why don't be lower all the salaries starting with the rich to lower prices?

[Frenchfred]

I am not close to an economist, but some of the most vulnerable small businesses in places like South Texas or not going to be able to handle this.

It has always been a problem legislating equality in wealth. I would think tax cuts for the richest are not the way to go, but beyond this and a few other things this is always been tough. This requires a cultural change beyond me myself and I imo.

If you read many red team members responses under Trump then it’s pretty clear the culture is dogs eat dogs. How you change this, I have a not a clue. They truly believe this pseudo-Darwinian “I got to get mine first at the expense of others”

* Foot note

Many of these people claim to be Christians.

if they cannot handle that and people cannot live on minimum wage, that means that there is a big problem in redistribution of wealth in society. Republicans have push the rhetoric of trickle down economy, which failed miserably and now poor people cannot live and small business cannot afford to raise minimum wage

[Frenchfred]

Min wage was suppose to be for 15 year olds to go to work and learn how to do a job and money
Not to raise a family on

You want more robots in store raise the min wage

you know what, we should give 0$ to employees and go back to slavery to keep prices down. You don't seem bothered by the fact that the top1% took most of the economic gain since 1980 (and Reagan). Maybe the economy would be better and we wouldn't talk about raising the minimum wage if this disparity didn't occur. I still don't understand how people can still believe in trickle down economy while it has failed so badly. It seems that most people don't read and look at data

[Frenchfred]

1365135185927237633

:cry

Biden is the one voting in Congress?

[Frenchfred]

This is why need to MAGA

Did trump and his family bring the jobs manufacturing their goods back from China? No, that's what I thought.

[DMC]

https://static.onecms.io/wp-content/uploads/sites/38/2014/08/12225413/sarahnoda.jpg
I'm blocking you

:lol Mr 200 alts getting hooked so easily

[boutons_deux]

"32 million workers would receive a raise under a $15 minimum wage—and

24 million of them are in states where senators voted against it.

In other words,

75% of workers who would benefit from a $15 minimum wage are in states represented by senators who voted no last week.

The Senate must take up and pass the Raise the Wage Act as soon as possible.

-- Economic Policy Institute

[boutons_deux]

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/158796412_4902915283134820_3216371143304034734_n.p ng?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2MW0OyXj5KMAX8Jpd8v&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=3d3cc5f23ecf3e11512885c341fd0d31&oe=606DEF5D

[boutons_deux]

In Thumbs-Down to Sinema, Survey Finds Majority of Arizona Voters Favor $15 Minimum Wage

"The verdict is clear—in Arizona, voting to raise the minimum wage is the smartest political move."

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/03/23/thumbs-down-sinema-survey-finds-majority-arizona-voters-favor-15-minimum-wage?cd-origin=rss

Manchin heard a lot of disagreement from WVA when he wanted $11

Pass $15 now and indexed to inflation from now (Powell wants higher inflation, like 3% or more)

Pass $15 now, but pay $15 in 4 years will only buy $14 or less.

[Winehole23]

1382466751254962183

[SpursforSix]

It's hard for me to agree mandating a minimum wage when the cost of living varies so much across the country.

[coyotes_geek]

It's hard for me to agree mandating a minimum wage when the cost of living varies so much across the country.

Agreed. Should be purely a state & local issue.

[Winehole23]

Agreed. Should be purely a state & local issue.It makes some sense to set a maximum rate of exploitation, does it not? Few complain that $7.25/hour is too high.

[Isitjustme?]

1382466751254962183

$11 is better than nothing tbh. No way any increase in minimum wage has 10 R votes tho

[coyotes_geek]

It makes some sense to set a maximum rate of exploitation, does it not? Few complain that $7.25/hour is too high.

Does that rate need to be the same in San Francisco, CA as it is in San Francisco, TX? We're not a homogenous nation, cost and income structures are different. One size does not fit all. Besides, the majority of Americans already live in a state or city with a minimum wage above $7.25.

[boutons_deux]

Does that rate need to be the same in San Francisco, CA as it is in San Francisco, TX? We're not a homogenous nation, cost and income structures are different. One size does not fit all. Besides, the majority of Americans already live in a state or city with a minimum wage above $7.25.

NONE of the state minimum wages are livable. $15 isn't livable in top 25? metro areas.

but $800B and empire every year for the corrupt multiple-war-losing MIC is absolutely the minimum to squeak by

[coyotes_geek]

NONE of the state minimum wages are livable. $15 isn't livable in top 25? metro areas.

but $800B and empire every year for the corrupt multiple-war-losing MIC is absolutely the minimum to squeak by

The concept of "livable" is subjective, arbitrary and meaningless in the context of the employer-employee relationship. You are not your employer's dependent.

[SpursforSix]

It makes some sense to set a maximum rate of exploitation, does it not? Few complain that $7.25/hour is too high.

Sure. But there are areas where that's a good wage and anything higher could close down the business. If you're out in bumfuck wherever, $7.25 might be too much. The problem is that the business owner will always be wanting a lower wage and the worker, always a higher wage. There's an equilibrium where it works for both (assuming a successful business plan). But that equilibrium is different for every city in the country.

[SpursforSix]

In any event, all these jobs will eventually be replaced (totally or partially) with robots and we'll have a new discussion.

[SpursforSix]

And whenever bring up the shit about robots, most of the people I know just dismiss it. Or don't want to think about it.

[spurraider21]

Agreed. Should be purely a state & local issue.
ideally, sure, but states and localities are known to drag their feet.

i do think it should be tied to a state or local cost of living index. and you could potentially mandate that federally, though nobody is really discussing that route.

but a flat federal min wage seems like a very imprecise way to address the issue. your federal floor should basically be the same as the locality with the lowest cost of living, but that isnt doing much for most of the country.

[SpursforSix]

Plus the chips in brains and total connectivity.

All this shit is coming.

[spurraider21]

And whenever bring up the shit about robots, most of the people I know just dismiss it. Or don't want to think about it.
automation is going to replace a lot of jobs, and already does. a lot of fast food places already use those electronic ordering kiosks instead of cashiers. first time i saw that was at a McD's i went to in Roanoke that had that. was pretty cool tbh.

and while automation does come with a cost of investment, that cost becomes more viable when the competing wages keep growing... but its an inevitability anyway, and while i didnt really pay attention to Yang as a candidate, he was the one bringing the most attention to that issue, which is going to hit us sooner or later. but until people see the crisis up close, they're not going to react to it (same with climate change)

[coyotes_geek]

ideally, sure, but states and localities are known to drag their feet.

And the federal government isn't?


i do think it should be tied to a state or local cost of living index. and you could potentially mandate that federally, though nobody is really discussing that route.

There actually are a few states doing that, but not very many. Not a fan of federally mandating it though.


but a flat federal min wage seems like a very imprecise way to address the issue. your federal floor should basically be the same as the locality with the lowest cost of living, but that isnt doing much for most of the country.

Agreed. That's precisely my opposition to a federal minimum wage in the first place.

[spurraider21]

And the federal government isn't?
thats when they have historically stepped in. same with integration, etc. when the local governments dont handle their shit, the feds step in. right now, 29 states have min wages above the current federal number. the other 21 dont.


There actually are a few states doing that, but not very many. Not a fan of federally mandating it though.
id rather the states do it. but far too many dont. think it would serve a good middle ground between doing nothing and setting a ham-fisted $15/hr


Agreed. That's precisely my opposition to a federal minimum wage in the first place.
i dont think $15 is good federal policy either.

[boutons_deux]

Federal minimum must be scaled/indexed to local CoL, which has been and is very well known

Federal minimum must be indexed to inflation to take it out of the political football game.

[SpursforSix]

automation is going to replace a lot of jobs, and already does. a lot of fast food places already use those electronic ordering kiosks instead of cashiers. first time i saw that was at a McD's i went to in Roanoke that had that. was pretty cool tbh.

and while automation does come with a cost of investment, that cost becomes more viable when the competing wages keep growing... but its an inevitability anyway, and while i didnt really pay attention to Yang as a candidate, he was the one bringing the most attention to that issue, which is going to hit us sooner or later. but until people see the crisis up close, they're not going to react to it (same with climate change)

That's a good comparison...global warming. I think the big difference is that GW will take a relatively long time to affect most people. Whereas robotics and AI will happen fairly quickly and displace millions of manual labor and low end service jobs within 10 years. At the least. There's enough compelling evidence to see plenty of management jobs also going away. Not to mention the medical community.

[ElNono]

Was just reading today Domino's is starting to deliver pizzas with drones... sure, they're crappy jobs, but it only puts more pressure on the labor market

[coyotes_geek]

Yep. Raising the minimum wage just makes the drones, kiosks, and self ordering apps get here quicker. 10 years from now fast food employment will probably be half of what it is today.

[Chucho]

People don't want to work. Impossible to compete with the government and we're already offering $15 an hour and have been for the last 3 months.
You can't even fathom how many people put in resumes and apps just to fill their UI claim forms.

[Chucho]

Yep. Raising the minimum wage just makes the drones, kiosks, and self ordering apps get here quicker.

That's why you see more and more self-checkouts popping up EVERYWHERE. Target, Walmart...to bad I can't get my own good checkout service at restaurants.

[coyotes_geek]

That's why you see more and more self-checkouts popping up EVERYWHERE. Target, Walmart...to bad I can't get my own good checkout service at restaurants.

Precisely. Consumers moving to cashless payments more and more speeds this along as well.

[spurraider21]

That's a good comparison...global warming. I think the big difference is that GW will take a relatively long time to affect most people. Whereas robotics and AI will happen fairly quickly and displace millions of manual labor and low end service jobs within 10 years. At the least. There's enough compelling evidence to see plenty of management jobs also going away. Not to mention the medical community.
yeah the timescales are probably different, but the concept is the same. the other issue with global warming is that we dont feel the effects of it until after its too late to prevent it.

but onto automation, you are right that its a lot more imminent. this is where UBI will likely eventually kick in, or just generally the boogeyman of "redistribution of wealth." as human labor is replaced by machine labor, AND productivity increases, you just have a surplus of wealth going to the owners while they have no reason to pay wages and support the community. thats just a natural consequence of capitalism, so you are going to have to tax and establish some baseline UBI for those displaced workers (which will be a growing pool of people over time)

[spurraider21]

That's why you see more and more self-checkouts popping up EVERYWHERE. Target, Walmart...to bad I can't get my own good checkout service at restaurants.
i tend to use the self checkout lines if i have a handful of products, like if i'm at a target/walmart/lowes... or if i had to pick up a quick 3-4 items at the grocery store. but if i have a lot of shit, i still prefer a cashier. they're usually quicker (especially when it comes to produce where its not always as simple as scanning a bar code), and i appreciate the help bagging items.

[Adam Lambert]

People don't want to work. Impossible to compete with the government and we're already offering $15 an hour and have been for the last 3 months.
You can't even fathom how many people put in resumes and apps just to fill their UI claim forms.

Unemployment runs out regardless of whether you're applying or not. Few people are living off of unemployment checks.

It's not that people don't want to work. They don't want to take shitty jobs. This country is top-heavy when it comes to good jobs. We don't have enough work for every able-bodied person to put in 40+ hours, but we still work people 60+ hours in a lot of cases. Then we leave the scraps as minimum wage hourly jobs.

And even with those, the idea that people are taking government assistance instead of working is way overblown. I've worked with several restaurant managers who complained that no one was applying to work there when all they were doing was putting up a "Now Hiring" sign inside the store. One simple Facebook post later and they have a dozen applicants.

[SpursforSix]

i tend to use the self checkout lines if i have a handful of products, like if i'm at a target/walmart/lowes... or if i had to pick up a quick 3-4 items at the grocery store. but if i have a lot of shit, i still prefer a cashier. they're usually quicker (especially when it comes to produce where its not always as simple as scanning a bar code), and i appreciate the help bagging items.

Same. Which is 90% of the time. Maybe twice a month, we get full groceries and I'll go through the manned lane. Or if I buy a bunch of fruit/vegetables that needs to be weighed or looked up. But "they'll" eventually figure out how to get rid of most of those as well with maybe full cart scanning or something. IDK. It doesn't seem like it'd be that hard or that we're far off from doing that. They'll have some shrinkage but not enough to offset the gains from getting rid of people. We already have car vending machines which is weird af to me. Not to mention the huge uptick in grocery delivery services.

[Adam Lambert]

For some reason, the narrative of people who can work but choose not to generates 100x the outrage compared to people who can hire but choose not to.

[SpursforSix]

Unemployment runs out regardless of whether you're applying or not. Few people are living off of unemployment checks.

It's not that people don't want to work. They don't want to take shitty jobs. This country is top-heavy when it comes to good jobs. We don't have enough work for every able-bodied person to put in 40+ hours, but we still work people 60+ hours in a lot of cases. Then we leave the scraps as minimum wage hourly jobs.

And even with those, the idea that people are taking government assistance instead of working is way overblown. I've worked with several restaurant managers who complained that no one was applying to work there when all they were doing was putting up a "Now Hiring" sign inside the store. One simple Facebook post later and they have a dozen applicants.

The problem is that I think the definition of "shitty jobs" has significantly expanded.

[spurraider21]

Same. Which is 90% of the time. Maybe twice a month, we get full groceries and I'll go through the manned lane. Or if I buy a bunch of fruit/vegetables that needs to be weighed or looked up. But "they'll" eventually figure out how to get rid of most of those as well with maybe full cart scanning or something. IDK. It doesn't seem like it'd be that hard or that we're far off from doing that. They'll have some shrinkage but not enough to offset the gains from getting rid of people. We already have car vending machines which is weird af to me. Not to mention the huge uptick in grocery delivery services.
its weird to me too. i was actually looking at carvana when i was shopping for a car a few months ago. main reason i elected against it was that i wanted a certified pre-owned car, and thats only offered at franchise-licensed dealerships.

but im very glad that the auto-sales industry is trending in that direction. companies like carmax started the trend of online shopping with no haggling. truecar has really changed the game, too, so many traditional dealerships are moving toward that model too (with some resistance, some dealerships will lower the price of the car to be competitive on TrueCar and then just charge a lot of bullshit fees at the end of the transaction such that their out the door price is much higher than the similarly priced car at a different dealership)... but i think that industry is generally getting better

it will take a while before people trust the "no haggle" dealerships though... decades of practice where customers knew that sticker prices were a ripoff, and if you didnt get a deal better than that, you were a sucker. now when a dealership tells you they are a one-price dealer, you still have the feeling in the back of your head that they are arbitrarily charging you more than they realistically need to

[Adam Lambert]

The problem is that I think the definition of "shitty jobs" has significantly expanded.

Maybe but jobs have gotten shittier and pay has gotten worse.

I would bet most minimum wage jobs in 1965 were much less soul-crushing than they are today.

[koriwhat]

Every time I've ever gone through a drive-thru it has proved to me that those people working the window should make less than minimum wage as it stands now.

[Chucho]

Unemployment runs out regardless of whether you're applying or not. Few people are living off of unemployment checks.

It's not that people don't want to work. They don't want to take shitty jobs. This country is top-heavy when it comes to good jobs. We don't have enough work for every able-bodied person to put in 40+ hours, but we still work people 60+ hours in a lot of cases. Then we leave the scraps as minimum wage hourly jobs.

And even with those, the idea that people are taking government assistance instead of working is way overblown. I've worked with several restaurant managers who complained that no one was applying to work there when all they were doing was putting up a "Now Hiring" sign inside the store. One simple Facebook post later and they have a dozen applicants.

We're offering double minimum wage in most markets we are hiring. It's work from home. Paid training. Paid tens every 2 hours.

Our weekly Indeed bill would pay rent for at least 3 families.

I re-inherited hiring 60 days ago. I speak with TONS of business owners every week. Glad your restaurant friends were able to tap into an FB and be an exception.

It's nationwide. My wife has an open assistant position that starts at $40k with little to no experience. She's never had a problem filling the vacancy in less than a week. She's going on 6 weeks with so few qualified applicants. She's in the medical space.

It's not even a matter of why, but it has become a matter of fact. People don't want to work right now

[Chucho]

Maybe but jobs have gotten shittier and pay has gotten worse.

I would bet most minimum wage jobs in 1965 were much less soul-crushing than they are today.

Yeah, but people weren't as "thin-skinned" or "enlightened" as they were in 1965.

[spurraider21]

Yeah, but people weren't as "thin-skinned" or "enlightened" as they were in 1965.
"this new generation is full of entitled brats" has been the complaint of every preceding generation in recorded history

[koriwhat]

Yeah, but people weren't as "thin-skinned" or "enlightened" as they were in 1965.

:tu

[Chucho]

"this new generation is full of entitled brats" has been the complaint of every preceding generation in recorded history

And with every succeeding generation since the "Happy Days", we've fallen further from our perch as the world leader.

[Chucho]

.

[spurraider21]

And with every succeeding generation since the "Happy Days", we've fallen further from our perch as the world leader.
we've fallen quite a bit behind in income mobility and inequality, yes.

[Chucho]

we've fallen quite a bit behind in income mobility and inequality, yes.

Our first world poverty is still a standard of living greater than most of the world.

Also, proportionate correlation is something we don't understand. It's not coincidence we're the only 1st world country with a population over 130 million.

[spurraider21]

Our first world poverty is still a standard of living greater than most of the world.

Also, proportionate correlation is something we don't understand. It's not coincidence we're the only 1st world country with a population over 130 million.
depends on your criteria for what constitutes a 1st world country

[Adam Lambert]

We're offering double minimum wage in most markets we are hiring. It's work from home. Paid training. Paid tens every 2 hours.

Our weekly Indeed bill would pay rent for at least 3 families.

I re-inherited hiring 60 days ago. I speak with TONS of business owners every week. Glad your restaurant friends were able to tap into an FB and be an exception.

It's nationwide. My wife has an open assistant position that starts at $40k with little to no experience. She's never had a problem filling the vacancy in less than a week. She's going on 6 weeks with so few qualified applicants. She's in the medical space.

It's not even a matter of why, but it has become a matter of fact. People don't want to work right now

Sorry you're having issues hiring but no one is making $40K a year from unemployment so I don't think that's your problem.

A big factor for admin jobs in that salary range is mothers of young children have to decide if it's worth taking a job where the entire salary is going to day care. Your applicant pool is smaller because of it.

[Winehole23]

yeah the timescales are probably different, but the concept is the same. the other issue with global warming is that we dont feel the effects of it until after its too late to prevent it.

but onto automation, you are right that its a lot more imminent. this is where UBI will likely eventually kick in, or just generally the boogeyman of "redistribution of wealth." as human labor is replaced by machine labor, AND productivity increases, you just have a surplus of wealth going to the owners while they have no reason to pay wages and support the community. thats just a natural consequence of capitalism, so you are going to have to tax and establish some baseline UBI for those displaced workers (which will be a growing pool of people over time)or not, depending. this is the USA

tanstaafl unless you're already rich.

[Chinook]

I don't know how many of you guys actually talk to people working minimum-wage jobs, but most of the ones I talk to actually like what they do. What they don't like is all the bullshit that goes with it. So many jobs have been metricized. So now it's not just being a cashier and meeting people while ringing up their purchase. It's making sure you're ringing up so many people an hour or pushing so many credit cards or saying the specific catch phrases or running around stocking the front end and so on. We are way better at "efficiently using man hours" than we used to be, and that leads to a bullshit amount of extra pressure and physical strain.

Like back in the forever-ago, I used to work at Victoria's Secret. Each box we'd get off the truck would have a time written on it with black marker. That represented the aggregate fastest times someone had stocked the included items. It wasn't on there to be a record you were trying to hit. They'd take that fastest time, call it the maximum time and then discipline you if you didn't hit it. The standard at home depot to get a bonus was to sell more each day than that store sold on that day the year before. Many of these jobs have a culture of pushing their people to work faster, harder, to take fewer breaks, spend less time with each customer and so on. That's miserable, and it's fucking unnecessary, because we produce more and sell more than we have at any point in human history. We don't NEED to work as hard as we do. We used to get paid more for less work. Now, you have people working 60 hours wading through bullshit just to make ends meet, and because they work less than 32 hours at any individual job, they don't get benefits, since we basically let companies weasel out of the social programs workers in 1965 could rely on.

And don't even get me started on sub-contracting.

It's no wonder at all why someone would consider minimum wage jobs to be shitty when their own bosses treat the jobs as disposable. If a job at McDonald's was for 40 hours a week, at a wage where folks could just do that one job and be able to afford their essentials and some savings while also getting insurance, leave and retirement options, no one would look down on it. But this shit has nothing to do with the character of modern workers. Jobs are shittier now, and folks are starting to really understand how bad things have gotten. I'm sympathetic to the idea that small businesses can't all afford to pay a huge minimum wage. But the solution is for them to apply for some kind of payroll assistance from the government to bridge the gap (think revenue sharing in the NBA), not for their workers to break their bodies and spirits just for the privilege to make enough to be in debt.

I'm also amendable to a regional/situational minimum wage. The federal government already does that with their locality scales. They can look at something similar to figure out how to adjust minimum wage.

[Winehole23]

wage theft lawsuits are an acceptable cost of doing business for Amazon, nothing more.

[coyotes_geek]

I don't know how many of you guys actually talk to people working minimum-wage jobs, but most of the ones I talk to actually like what they do. What they don't like is all the bullshit that goes with it. So many jobs have been metricized. So now it's not just being a cashier and meeting people while ringing up their purchase. It's making sure you're ringing up so many people an hour or pushing so many credit cards or saying the specific catch phrases or running around stocking the front end and so on. We are way better at "efficiently using man hours" than we used to be, and that leads to a bullshit amount of extra pressure and physical strain.

That's the flip side to the minimum wage issue. As the value of an employee's compensation rises, so does the value of the production required of the employee in order to sustain the viability of their job. You can't raise the minimum wage without simultaneously raising the minimum production required in order to enter or remain part of the work force.

Then there's the uncomfortable discussion about whether or not the impacts of raising the minimum production required to enter or remain in the work force hits certain demographic groups disproportionally.

[ElNono]

Yep. Raising the minimum wage just makes the drones, kiosks, and self ordering apps get here quicker. 10 years from now fast food employment will probably be half of what it is today.

Well, I don't think raising the minimum wage is the problem here. If I'm parsing what you're saying correctly, this is inevitable. Now or 10 years down the road.

Might as well accelerate it and face it now than keep on kicking the can down the road and having people continue to fall through the cracks until we can't ignore it anymore.

[boutons_deux]

That's the flip side to the minimum wage issue. As the value of an employee's compensation rises, so does the value of the production required of the employee in order to sustain the viability of their job. You can't raise the minimum wage without simultaneously raising the minimum production required in order to enter or remain part of the work force.

Then there's the uncomfortable discussion about whether or not the impacts of raising the minimum production required to enter or remain in the work force hits certain demographic groups disproportionally.

depends on what percentage of the selling price is the labor cost

MacDonald's CEO said $15/hour would add pennies to Big Mac price

[coyotes_geek]

Well, I don't think raising the minimum wage is the problem here. If I'm parsing what you're saying correctly, this is inevitable. Now or 10 years down the road.

Might as well accelerate it and face it now than keep on kicking the can down the road and having people continue to fall through the cracks until we can't ignore it anymore.

It is inevitable, but in the ideal world we would be able to delay that moment as long as possible while we try to figure out how the hell we're going to reform our educational system into one that does a dramatically better job of preparing kids to enter the work force.

[spurraider21]

That's the flip side to the minimum wage issue. As the value of an employee's compensation rises, so does the value of the production required of the employee in order to sustain the viability of their job. You can't raise the minimum wage without simultaneously raising the minimum production required in order to enter or remain part of the work force.

Then there's the uncomfortable discussion about whether or not the impacts of raising the minimum production required to enter or remain in the work force hits certain demographic groups disproportionally.
unless for years we've had increases in production without a proportional increase in wages. if the wages have been artificially too low for some time, then you absolutely should be able to raise them without demanding a further increase in production

[coyotes_geek]

depends on what percentage of the selling price is the labor cost

MacDonald's CEO said $15/hour would add pennies to Big Mac price

That's because McDonalds knows they can offset the cost of paying $15/hr by getting rid of a bunch of workers through the self ordering kiosks and requiring their remaining workers to produce more. You'll have fewer employees who are expected to produce significantly more than before, but they'll be making more money per hour.

[Chinook]

That's the flip side to the minimum wage issue. As the value of an employee's compensation rises, so does the value of the production required of the employee in order to sustain the viability of their job.

There are other factors, but I disagree with the basic argument you seem to be making. Production isn't the issue. Labor is more efficient now than it ever was before. Folks in the 60s had a higher wage controlled for inflation while not being as productive as modern employees. So in that regard, we are certainly producing enough as a society to where we should be able to have a higher minimum wage. The "uncomfortable discussion" that shows up in mainly based on economic assumptions that we've been taking as fact when they're not.

Automation should be making everyone's lives better. The reason why it's not is because we're directly allowing for individual private ownership of automated processes and AIs and allowing owners to trade out human labor for machine labor while pocketing the savings. We don't actually have to do that.

And don't get all Randian by suggesting that captains of industry would just stop making the world a better place if we taxed them more or did not allow them exclusive rights to automated processes. The US government is by far the largest funder of research and development, including AI. These advancements exist in large part because the government throws a shit ton of money at scientists in a way that a corporation really can't.

[ElNono]

It is inevitable, but in the ideal world we would be able to delay that moment as long as possible while we try to figure out how the hell we're going to reform our educational system into one that does a dramatically better job of preparing kids to enter the work force.

I don't think it's an education problem. We're inevitably heading to a breaking point where the workforce just doesn't offer enough jobs for everybody. It's not even low or middle paying jobs, there's robots that do incredibly precise work as well.

If it only would be a matter of re-training, we've done that many times in the past, all the way back to the industrial revolution. I don't think that's what we're facing here though.

[ElNono]

unless for years we've had increases in production without a proportional increase in wages. if the wages have been artificially too low for some time, then you absolutely should be able to raise them without demanding a further increase in production

The counterargument to that is that the company fiduciary duty is to make more money for shareholders, so 'optimizing' the production vs cost ratio and showing a good result next quarter take priority over how well compensated the employees are.

[spurraider21]

The counterargument to that is that the company fiduciary duty is to make more money for shareholders, so 'optimizing' the production vs cost ratio and showing a good result next quarter take priority over how well compensated the employees are.
oh, of course. i'm not suggesting that increasing wages just because they can is going to be the optimal decision for their shareholders. however, plenty of firms pay above market wages so that they can have less turnover, less wasted money training, better morale, etc

[coyotes_geek]

unless for years we've had increases in production without a proportional increase in wages. if the wages have been artificially too low for some time, then you absolutely should be able to raise them without demanding a further increase in production

To an extent, sure. The challenge specific to most minimum wage positions is that virtually all of them are concentrated in fast food and retail which are low margin industries. The lower the margin, the less room you have to raise wages without impacting productivity requirements or prices to the consumer.

[spurraider21]

To an extent, sure. The challenge specific to most minimum wage positions is that virtually all of them are concentrated in fast food and retail which are low margin industries. The lower the margin, the less room you have to raise wages without impacting productivity requirements or prices to the consumer.
and yet for years those same industries have benefitted from increased production and efficiency without a proportional increase in wages

[ElNono]

oh, of course. i'm not suggesting that increasing wages just because they can is going to be the optimal decision for their shareholders. however, plenty of firms pay above market wages so that they can have less turnover, less wasted money training, better morale, etc

Oh, I know. I'm pointing out that when we talk about the inevitability of automation, that 'optimization' is what we're looking at.

What I'm positing is that if there's a robot right now that can do your job much more efficiently but it's more expensive than paying you, but that won't be the case in 10 years, then we should really start addressing this thing with you right now, not wait 10 years until you're kicked to the middle of the street with no re-training to do anything else.
There's obviously no interest on the company to do that (it's an added cost for no tangible immediate benefit), and so this then becomes a political/government problem.

This goes as well to what Chinook is saying about companies not really paying a price for 'optimizing'. I don't know what the solution is, but we should definitely be talking about it.

[Winehole23]

unless for years we've had increases in production without a proportional increase in wages. if the wages have been artificially too low for some time, then you absolutely should be able to raise them without demanding a further increase in production50 year trend of hourly compensation falling vs productivity, fwiw.

[ElNono]

Then there's also the whole argument that because automation increased productivity, the rest of the employees are not entitled to a raise, since it was the robot that made it happen.

Another prong to this discussion is the dwindling power, if not outright disappearance, of unions as well, which is another can of worms on it's own.

[coyotes_geek]

I don't think it's an education problem. We're inevitably heading to a breaking point where the workforce just doesn't offer enough jobs for everybody. It's not even low or middle paying jobs, there's robots that do incredibly precise work as well.

If it only would be a matter of re-training, we've done that many times in the past, all the way back to the industrial revolution. I don't think that's what we're facing here though.

You could be right about the bigger picture, but I do think we have an education problem. I think the skills gap is very real. We don't have nearly enough kids going into the STEM fields or the trades. I'm a hiring manager in one of the engineering fields and pretty much every hire I make is a multiple offer situation.

On the flip side, we've got a bunch of people graduating college with degrees they can't use and our high schools are cranking out way too many kids who aren't qualified to do anything more than work at McDonalds or Walmart.

[coyotes_geek]

and yet for years those same industries have benefitted from increased production and efficiency without a proportional increase in wages

They can't have benefitted all that much, as both those industries are running in the neighborhood of single digit margins. That's not a lot of room to have gone up.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that you can certainly find industries where production and efficiency hasn't followed through with the increases in wages (tech & finance come to mind), but how many people in those industries are making min wage?

[coyotes_geek]

There are other factors, but I disagree with the basic argument you seem to be making. Production isn't the issue. Labor is more efficient now than it ever was before. Folks in the 60s had a higher wage controlled for inflation while not being as productive as modern employees. So in that regard, we are certainly producing enough as a society to where we should be able to have a higher minimum wage. The "uncomfortable discussion" that shows up in mainly based on economic assumptions that we've been taking as fact when they're not.

I agree, production isn't the issue. The value of the production relative to the value of the compensation is. I'm not disagreeing with any of you guys about the changes that have occurred over time in production or efficiency. Production or efficiency aren't the important metrics here. Did the employee generate more dollars for the business in one hour than the business had to spend to get the employee to be there? If yes, job exists. If no, job does not exist.


Automation should be making everyone's lives better. The reason why it's not is because we're directly allowing for individual private ownership of automated processes and AIs and allowing owners to trade out human labor for machine labor while pocketing the savings. We don't actually have to do that.

What's the alternative?


And don't get all Randian by suggesting that captains of industry would just stop making the world a better place if we taxed them more or did not allow them exclusive rights to automated processes. The US government is by far the largest funder of research and development, including AI. These advancements exist in large part because the government throws a shit ton of money at scientists in a way that a corporation really can't.

That's a different direction than where I was taking the conversation. My point here was about one guy working one hour and how many dollars he has to bring in compared to how many dollars his employer has to pay out.

Side note, thanks to you and everyone else for the fun conversation.

[ElNono]

You could be right about the bigger picture, but I do think we have an education problem. I think the skills gap is very real. We don't have nearly enough kids going into the STEM fields or the trades. I'm a hiring manager in one of the engineering fields and pretty much every hire I make is a multiple offer situation.

On the flip side, we've got a bunch of people graduating college with degrees they can't use and our high schools are cranking out way too many kids who aren't qualified to do anything more than work at McDonalds or Walmart.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but as a person that worked on the T, E and M fields of STEM for 30+ years and recently moved to management, it's not a panacea there either right now. You want highly qualified and most importantly, experienced folks working on the truly important stuff, the rest can be easily outsourced for a fraction of the cost.

One could argue that education plays a role somewhat, but it also greatly comes down to economics and disparate standards of living in a global economy. Manufacturing fell the same way. We sort of tried to reinvent ourselves as a services economy, but services are slowly but surely going by the wayside too.

I was just talking about this in another thread not long ago. These unskilled jobs used to be the sort of things that only applied to kids and summer jobs, particularly in the US (it is different in Europe, etc), but they're increasingly becoming more like safety nets for adults losing their jobs until they can get something else.

Even before the pandemic with the rosy employment numbers, there was a lot of under-employment and part-time jobs with next to no benefits. And it's not just retail or food industries, it's across the board.

[SnakeBoy]

Interesting discussion with some good points but it might be worthwhile to consider the actual makeup of the workforce and the effect it has on wages in the discussion

https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https:%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2F 129fa4e0-3e20-11eb-b9d4-73b0fd2f82d2-standard.png?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&quality=highest&source=next&width=700

[ElNono]

Interesting discussion with some good points but it might be worthwhile to consider the actual makeup of the workforce and the effect it has on wages in the discussion

https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/https:%2F%2Fd6c748xw2pzm8.cloudfront.net%2Fprod%2F 129fa4e0-3e20-11eb-b9d4-73b0fd2f82d2-standard.png?dpr=1&fit=scale-down&quality=highest&source=next&width=700

Not sure that graph really says much, if anything, about wages. Are we to infer something about the workforce age related to wages?

What I do think it says is that the labor market is overall shrinking, even more so in first world countries. There's a lot of different reads for that, some of which we touched upon here, like automation or outsourcing.

[boutons_deux]

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-0/p526x296/173935308_3882479158465032_8779820277748241775_n.p ng?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=cAJH6L6ZD5QAX8AcxVC&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&tp=30&oh=580dd8fa045899e099a09c02a2b7680f&oe=60A0EA01

[boutons_deux]

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/174282242_3530710803701815_4569507347171912351_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=yd7ZU026bFgAX_332UN&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&oh=72aef625630baf737b99d31de6e255ec&oe=609FD444

[Winehole23]

1383881855708012545

[Winehole23]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EzRSIBPUUAoIcwT?format=jpg&name=large

[ElNono]

1383881855708012545

attention whoring

[boutons_deux]

Mitch McConnell wants his conference to say nice things about these 2 Democrats


Keep Sens. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema close and publicly praise them, Mitch McConnell explained, because

they could “save this institution.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/15/joe-manchin-kyrsten-sinema-filibuster-481568 (https://www.politico.com/news/2021/04/15/joe-manchin-kyrsten-sinema-filibuster-481568)

[Winehole23]

1385019572890128387

[boutons_deux]

In Closed-Door Event With Corporate Lobbyists, Manchin Vows $15 Wage 'Not Going to Happen'

A top restaurant industry lobbyist reportedly "couldn't contain his excitement" at the West Virginia Democrat's remarks.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/04/21/closed-door-event-corporate-lobbyists-manchin-vows-15-wage-not-going-happen

The Constitution fucks America, one man can keep 10Ms of people in abject poverty, including his own voters, but he knows the poverty-wage industries will reward him with $Ms

[Isitjustme?]

In Closed-Door Event With Corporate Lobbyists, Manchin Vows $15 Wage 'Not Going to Happen'

A top restaurant industry lobbyist reportedly "couldn't contain his excitement" at the West Virginia Democrat's remarks.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/04/21/closed-door-event-corporate-lobbyists-manchin-vows-15-wage-not-going-happen

The Constitution fucks America, one man can keep 10Ms of people in abject poverty, including his own voters, but he knows the poverty-wage industries will reward him with $Ms







It was clear when we got only 50 senate seats there was no chance of the $15 minimum wage happening.More people should have followed biden's lead and ran like a Biden style campaign. We would have been better off. Also Cal Cunningham should have kept his fucking dick in his pants

[boutons_deux]

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-0/p526x296/185551554_3956006641112283_5076496792025938628_n.j pg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=JryKig1M8isAX9vdw0p&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&tp=6&oh=34288a3a782807892d833497a4cf5e7b&oe=60C06124

[boutons_deux]

Chipotle minimum wage hike to $15 deals 'psychological' blow to restaurant industry

Chipotle's minimum wage hike could spell profit doom for rivals that are forced to follow suit to retain workers,

while also lacking the compelling menus to justify price increases on diners.

The company is also offering

employee referral bonuses of $200 for restaurant workers and

$750 for general managers.

It touted the ability to be a manager of several Chipotle restaurants — a position it calls a restaurateur — within four years.

The position pays more than $100,000 a year, Chipotle said.

The burrito chain is looking to fill 20,000 restaurant positions.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/chipotle-minimum-wage-hike-to-15-deals-psychological-blow-to-restaurant-industry-top-analyst-171807102.html

[Adam Lambert]

Oh shit now my Burrito Bowl is gonna be $20!

[RandomGuy]

You could be right about the bigger picture, but I do think we have an education problem. I think the skills gap is very real. We don't have nearly enough kids going into the STEM fields or the trades. I'm a hiring manager in one of the engineering fields and pretty much every hire I make is a multiple offer situation.

On the flip side, we've got a bunch of people graduating college with degrees they can't use and our high schools are cranking out way too many kids who aren't qualified to do anything more than work at McDonalds or Walmart.

And the trades are screaming for people.

A bit dated, but trend hasn't reversed itself:
https://www.contractormag.com/plumbing/plumbing-contractor/article/20879226/skilled-tradesmen-shortage-poses-threat-and-opportunity

[DarrinS]

Oh shit now my Burrito Bowl is gonna be $20!

The food poisoning will cost more.

[coyotes_geek]

And the trades are screaming for people.

A bit dated, but trend hasn't reversed itself:
https://www.contractormag.com/plumbing/plumbing-contractor/article/20879226/skilled-tradesmen-shortage-poses-threat-and-opportunity

Yep. I couldn't find the link but I remember reading a piece recently about how the US economy is losing thousands of electricians and plumbers a year because there aren't enough entry level folks to keep up with retirements. As a country we need to invest a whole lot more into vocational training in high schools.

[Chinook]

https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-0/p526x296/185551554_3956006641112283_5076496792025938628_n.j pg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=JryKig1M8isAX9vdw0p&_nc_ht=scontent-dfw5-2.xx&tp=6&oh=34288a3a782807892d833497a4cf5e7b&oe=60C06124

Yeah, I mean, obviously. We have to weird idea that owners are "makers" and poor people are "takers", when the poor people work shitty jobs in order to keep the country running while owners get paid simply for owning a product other people's work makes valuable. It's like literally the opposite but for some reason folks in the US still push the dumb logic, even poor folks.

[boutons_deux]

Capitalism is the TAKER and non-Capitalists are the TAKEN

[leemajors]

Yep. I couldn't find the link but I remember reading a piece recently about how the US economy is losing thousands of electricians and plumbers a year because there aren't enough entry level folks to keep up with retirements. As a country we need to invest a whole lot more into vocational training in high schools.

We would have to actually invest money in schools.

[coyotes_geek]

We would have to actually invest money in schools.

Yes. We should do exactly that.

[Trill Clinton]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1XA6f_WQAEAGfH?format=jpg&name=small

[SnakeBoy]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1XA6f_WQAEAGfH?format=jpg&name=small

Needs a learn to code button

[Winehole23]

Needs a learn to code buttonthat's mostly outsourced now

[SnakeBoy]

that's mostly outsourced now

Tell it to your boy Biden

[Winehole23]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1x9zBqX0AYV6Bv?format=jpg&name=large

[Winehole23]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1xfgZhWUAM3NAt?format=png&name=medium

[DMC]

This is a bit of a false dilemma. You can have a MW hike without going to 15.

[DMC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1xfgZhWUAM3NAt?format=png&name=medium

A bit like a WPT results.

[pgardn]

Yep. I couldn't find the link but I remember reading a piece recently about how the US economy is losing thousands of electricians and plumbers a year because there aren't enough entry level folks to keep up with retirements. As a country we need to invest a whole lot more into vocational training in high schools.

This stigma that plumbers, electricians, mechanics are lowly slime is infuriating.
People who do these jobs in a professional manner and thoroughly are very skilled and enormously talented especially when having to redo a horrible existing structure. If you ever get a chance to sit and watch what this takes... I will pay bucks for people who do this properly and creatively with old houses. Because I am horrible at it. Its too fckn difficult. I dont do this everyday and I am not an expert and I dont have the best equipment. Im ready for all the do it yourself people to tell me what a great job they did on their own and how easy it is with Youtube and how they saved a ton of money. Time... You do it for the first time, it takes time and you will fck up. Or put in another shitty job to redo later.

And maybe you will throw tools and punch a wall like I do and end up paying more.

[Winehole23]

This is a bit of a false dilemma. You can have a MW hike without going to 15.yeah, thanks for catching up with everyone else :tu

[boutons_deux]

QUANTIFYING THE IMPACT OF THE FIGHT FOR $15:

$150 BILLION IN RAISES FOR 26 MILLION WORKERS,

WITH $76 BILLION GOING TO WORKERS OF COLOR

https://www.nelp.org/publication/quantifying-the-impact-of-the-fight-for-15-150-billion-in-raises-for-26-million-workers-with-76-billion-going-to-workers-of-color

[ducks]

QUANTIFYING THE IMPACT OF THE FIGHT FOR $15:

$150 BILLION IN RAISES FOR 26 MILLION WORKERS,

WITH $76 BILLION GOING TO WORKERS OF COLOR



https://www.nelp.org/publication/quantifying-the-impact-of-the-fight-for-15-150-billion-in-raises-for-26-million-workers-with-76-billion-going-to-workers-of-color





More then half
Seems racist does it not

[Ef-man]

More then half
Seems racist does it not

Glad you noticed that people of color (including you) are more likely to not have a job that pays well.

Looks like your kids will have a great chance of earning a minimum wage as adults and end up, like qchrisy, living in your basement - longer after their white counterparts have purchased homes.

:tu

[boutons_deux]

https://scontent-lcy1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/244503952_207663891465193_4959058782760044383_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=0lRWcGywlesAX8H6Kss&_nc_ht=scontent-lcy1-1.xx&oh=3281c08ae4aaf15627ea410a74696f98&oe=61835EB0

[CosmicCowboy]

Its a stupid argument. Nobody actually pays minimum wage.

[Dirks_Finale]

Its a stupid argument. Nobody actually pays minimum wage.

Should be 2 min wages. One for the zit faces at the drive thru who fvck up your order 50% of the time, and one for everybody else.

[boutons_deux]

39 million workers make less than $15 an hour

2 million make the federal minimum wage or less

[CosmicCowboy]

39 million workers make less than $15 an hour

2 million make the federal minimum wage or less

If they are working for $7.25 an hour they are morons or illegals. There are help wanted ads everywhere you look starting a lot higher than that.

[monosylab1k]

CC has such disdain for poor people :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

CC has such disdain for poor people :lol

I have disdain for people that pretend people are actually working for $7.25 an hour.

[monosylab1k]

I have disdain for people that pretend people are actually working for $7.25 an hour.

Do you think $11/hr is a livable wage?

[monosylab1k]

“We don’t need to raise the miminum wage because nobody works for minimum wage!”

What a retarded argument :lmao

[Adam Lambert]

Its a stupid argument. Nobody actually pays minimum wage.

Then it shouldn't be too hard to raise it.

[Adam Lambert]

I still don't think it should be $15, though.

[CosmicCowboy]

“We don’t need to raise the miminum wage because nobody works for minimum wage!”

What a retarded argument :lmao

No, it's retarded to even have a nationwide minimum wage. The local competitive market should set the wage. High cost areas like New York, Seattle, LA, etc. would naturally have higher wages than lower cost areas like Alabama. In San Antonio it appears that $12 is around the average for unskilled uneducated labor. The more skills they acquire, the higher the pay. I know the cheapest I have on the payroll is for a "moderate" skill shop guy that unloads trucks, sweeps and cleans, takes deliveries, etc. @ $20 an hour plus insurance, matching 401K, paid holidays and vacation etc.

[Ef-man]

No, it's retarded to even have a nationwide minimum wage. The local competitive market should set the wage. High cost areas like New York, Seattle, LA, etc. would naturally have higher wages than lower cost areas like Alabama. In San Antonio it appears that $12 is around the average for unskilled uneducated labor. The more skills they acquire, the higher the pay. I know the cheapest I have on the payroll is for a "moderate" skill shop guy that unloads trucks, sweeps and cleans, takes deliveries, etc. @ $20 an hour plus insurance, matching 401K, paid holidays and vacation etc.

Wish more business were like yours then but they are not.

[TimDunkem]

Yeah that's bs. The floor is being raised in terms of prerequisites for most decent jobs, but pay isn't following. You can't offer 35k per year with no benefits while expecting a bachelor's and 10 years experience, and claim "no one wants to work" when they say eff your shitty job.

[TimDunkem]

Funny though how the world nearly collapsed according to Repugs because Karen and Darrin couldn't get their salads and mimosas fast enough during lockdowns, and started calling everyone who worked the shit jobs "heroes". But when it's time to start talking about a raise they're suddenly saying none of the so-called heroes deserve anything close to $15.

[DMC]

Funny though how the world nearly collapsed according to Repugs because Karen and Darrin couldn't get their salads and mimosas fast enough during lockdowns, and started calling everyone who worked the shit jobs "heroes". But when it's time to start talking about a raise they're suddenly saying none of the so-called heroes deserve anything close to $15.

You're always welcomed to increase your tips.

[boutons_deux]

I really doubt the constipated Congress can create a sophisticated Federal minimum wage, pro-rate to regional costs, and indexed annually to inflation.

The floor everywhere should be $20, enforced from 2025, then increased for high-cost areas, starting now.

States have no compunction about hitting poor people with punitively regressive property and sales taxes, and blocking any attempts at rent control or building affordable housing.

[Nathan89]

Funny though how the world nearly collapsed according to Repugs because Karen and Darrin couldn't get their salads and mimosas fast enough during lockdowns, and started calling everyone who worked the shit jobs "heroes". But when it's time to start talking about a raise they're suddenly saying none of the so-called heroes deserve anything close to $15.

When it's time to start talking about the incompetent government forcing people to do things they aren't there asking to give the incompetent government more power? Seems reasonable.

[Nathan89]

Government force isn't the moral choice as the leftists would have you believe.

[rmt]

Meanwhile, the federal government starts Civil, Environmental, Mechanical, Electrical, etc. (ALL engineers with Bachelors/GS 5) at $30,414 (adjusted for locality) - that's $15 per hour.

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search/Results?g=5&k=engineer&gs=true&smin=35265&smax=45847&p=1

[monosylab1k]

Meanwhile, the federal government starts Civil, Environmental, Mechanical, Electrical, etc. (ALL engineers with Bachelors/GS 5) at $30,414 (adjusted for locality) - that's $15 per hour.

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search/Results?g=5&k=engineer&gs=true&smin=35265&smax=45847&p=1

What’s your point?

[RandomGuy]

Government force isn't the moral choice as the leftists would have you believe.


Jim Crow laws.

[RandomGuy]

Meanwhile, the federal government starts Civil, Environmental, Mechanical, Electrical, etc. (ALL engineers with Bachelors/GS 5) at $30,414 (adjusted for locality) - that's $15 per hour.

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search/Results?g=5&k=engineer&gs=true&smin=35265&smax=45847&p=1

The only thing that proves is that you don't understand the economic value of PTO, retirement, or health insurance. :lol

[RandomGuy]

When it's time to start talking about the incompetent government forcing people to do things they aren't there asking to give the incompetent government more power? Seems reasonable.

Sounds way better than your desire to give unelected corporate executives immunity, money, and power.

You desired political format absolutely takes peoples ability to vote away, so the negative feedback of elections forcing change would give way to naked fascist corpratism.

[TimDunkem]

Meanwhile, the federal government starts Civil, Environmental, Mechanical, Electrical, etc. (ALL engineers with Bachelors/GS 5) at $30,414 (adjusted for locality) - that's $15 per hour.

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search/Results?g=5&k=engineer&gs=true&smin=35265&smax=45847&p=1
Yuck. That's fucking terrible.

[ElNono]

I have disdain for people that pretend people are actually working for $7.25 an hour.

I know my nephew is working for that much in a burger king in the rio grande valley. He's young (early 20s) and texas born and raised.

He's not a complete moron, but there's some of that going on. That said, plenty of places that will only pay that to desperate people.

[ElNono]

No, it's retarded to even have a nationwide minimum wage. The local competitive market should set the wage. High cost areas like New York, Seattle, LA, etc. would naturally have higher wages than lower cost areas like Alabama. In San Antonio it appears that $12 is around the average for unskilled uneducated labor. The more skills they acquire, the higher the pay. I know the cheapest I have on the payroll is for a "moderate" skill shop guy that unloads trucks, sweeps and cleans, takes deliveries, etc. @ $20 an hour plus insurance, matching 401K, paid holidays and vacation etc.

The counter-argument to this is that inflation is a federal matter, since the money supply is a federal matter. The dollar depreciates over time the same for everybody no matter where they live. The US, Mexico or anywhere in the world where somebody is holding a US dollar.

Since we have a ~2% depreciation in the currency on an annual basis, but no adjustment at all on the federal minimum wage, that means in net terms that minimum wage keeps going down in purchase power (and thus getting liquidated) every year. Again, no matter where you live.

This is why federally we should have a reasonable minimum, then states can implement their own, at that level or above, based on the local conditions. The fact that the federal minimum wage is not adjusted for inflation is already a great ripoff favoring employers. This is because the minimum wage generally drives the overall salary scale.

[rmt]

The only thing that proves is that you don't understand the economic value of PTO, retirement, or health insurance. :lol

Can you do nothing but insult me? I am a government worker so I fully understand the economic value of PTO, retirement and health insurance.

Getting back to the subject - Miami-Dade County starts their Engineer 1 at $54,932.02 compared to the $30,414 starting pay for Federal Engineers with similar PTO, retirement and health insurance.

[rmt]

What’s your point?

My point is that maybe the federal government should take a long look at THEIR pay (for Engineers) before they start mandating a national $15 minimum wage for burger flippers. C'mon - do you know how hard those engineering problems are? Makes my head hurt when I look at them.

[monosylab1k]

My point is that maybe the federal government should take a long look at THEIR pay (for Engineers) before they start mandating a national $15 minimum wage for burger flippers. C'mon - do you know how hard those engineering problems are? Makes my head hurt when I look at them.

They absolutely should be paid more than that. Doesn’t change the fact that minimum wage needs to go up too.

[RandomGuy]

Can you do nothing but insult me? I am a government worker so I fully understand the economic value of PTO, retirement and health insurance.

Getting back to the subject - Miami-Dade County starts their Engineer 1 at $54,932.02 compared to the $30,414 starting pay for Federal Engineers with similar PTO, retirement and health insurance.

What is the economic value of those things? Put a dollar figure on it.

[ChumpDumper]

My point is that maybe the federal government should take a long look at THEIR pay (for Engineers) before they start mandating a national $15 minimum wage for burger flippers.Nah, do the minimum wage first.

[rmt]

Nah, do the minimum wage first.

So, you think burger flippers (with no educational requirement - not even a high school diploma) should earn the same as Engineers with a Bachelors?

[ChumpDumper]

So, you think burger flippers (with no educational requirement - not even a high school diploma) should earn the same as Engineers with a Bachelors?I think engineers have more opportunities than a single federal job in the USA.

You proved that yourself.:tu

[rmt]

What is the economic value of those things? Put a dollar figure on it.

It doesn't matter what the economic value of those things are - because local governments are paying $24k more than federal government with SIMILAR benefits.

[monosylab1k]

So, you think burger flippers (with no educational requirement - not even a high school diploma) should earn the same as Engineers with a Bachelors?

The burger flipper should get paid a livable wage. The engineer should be paid more than the burger flipper. They can both happen.

Why do you look at poor people with such disdain? Do you think flipping burgers while getting screamed at by your manager and customers is a job you could handle? Not saying they need to make six figures, but jobs like that aren’t easy. They should be paid accordingly.

[TimDunkem]

The burger flipper should get paid a livable wage. The engineer should be paid more than the burger flipper. They can both happen.

Why do you look at poor people with such disdain? Do you think flipping burgers while getting screamed at by your manager and customers is a job you could handle? Not saying they need to make six figures, but jobs like that aren’t easy. They should be paid accordingly.
"No skill" yet half of these Karens can't even hold a knife let alone cook a decent meal. That's why most are ordering out, eating like a whale, and screeching at workers when the food is a minute late then tipping like shit, but still find the meal great enough to grace their shitty Facebook feeds.

[DMC]

Boycott restaurants that don't pay their cooks more than minimum wage.

[spurraider21]

Boycott restaurants that don't pay their cooks more than minimum wage.
or just give those cooks all of your money!

[boutons_deux]

fast food workers are producing products, selling shit.

[DMC]

or just give those cooks all of your money!

So you cannot even boycott a fast food restaurant to show them you mean business? :lol I thought canceling was right up your alley.

You really aren't that committed outside of talking.

You walking past an empty soft drink bottle on the ground..

"Someone should do something about this"

[spurraider21]

So you cannot even boycott a fast food restaurant to show them you mean business? :lol I thought canceling was right up your alley.

You really aren't that committed outside of talking.

You walking past an empty soft drink bottle on the ground..

"Someone should do something about this"
nah. i'll pick it up and toss it. but if there's a nationwide epidemic of bottles on the ground, i realize that the odds of millions of people nationwide making a spontaneous yet coordinated effort to solve the problem is naive, and would advocate for government policy to address it.

[DMC]

nah. i'll pick it up and toss it. but if there's a nationwide epidemic of bottles on the ground, i realize that the odds of millions of people nationwide making a spontaneous yet coordinated effort to solve the problem is naive, and would advocate for government policy to address it.

Do you think boycotting a business would put pressure on them to examine their pay scales? I mean, the left cancels things all the time without government intervention. Whatever happened to the concept of voting with your dollar? If you continue using something you claim to disagree with, you're condoning it. Why can't you boycott it and still pressure your rep to do something about it? If the federal government doesn't do it, maybe the business itself will.

[spurraider21]

Do you think boycotting a business would put pressure on them to examine their pay scales? I mean, the left cancels things all the time without government intervention. Whatever happened to the concept of voting with your dollar? If you continue using something you claim to disagree with, you're condoning it. Why can't you boycott it and still pressure your rep to do something about it? If the federal government doesn't do it, maybe the business itself will.
i didnt actually say one shouldnt boycott the business. my sarcastic alternative to give the underpaid cooks all your money was a parody of your take that charity can/should take care of the things i think the government should take lead on

[monosylab1k]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/bf902fca0db55cd16b2e90b0b4f1a77f/tumblr_pn8ht0CPPX1qh3h8wo1_1280.png

[Winehole23]

Nobel Prize to Card and Imbens

tl;dr

-- minimum wage hikes don't reduce hiring
-- immigrants don't replace native workers or lower their pay.


A U.S.-based economist won the Nobel prize in economics Monday for pioneering research that transformed widely held ideas about the labor force, showing how an increase in the minimum wage doesn’t hinder hiring and immigrants don’t lower pay for native-born workers. Two others shared the award for developing ways to study these types of societal issues.


Canadian-born David Card of the University of California, Berkeley, was awarded half of the prize for his research on how the minimum wage (https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/njmin-aer.pdf), immigration (https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/mariel-impact.pdf)and education (https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/school-resources-outcomes.pdf) affect the labor market.
https://apnews.com/article/nobel-prizes-business-europe-3cbc672f994ae6f4f486a68b52c2bb32

[CosmicCowboy]

Nobel Prize lost all credibility when they gave Obama the Nobel Peace Prize before he did a fucking think to promote peace, then added more troops to Afghanistan.. Just a bunch of liberals jacking each other off.

[pgardn]

Nobel Prize lost all credibility when they gave Obama the Nobel Peace Prize before he did a fucking think to promote peace, then added more troops to Afghanistan.. Just a bunch of liberals jacking each other off.

Uhhh long before Obama Yassir Arafat got the award. I will leave it up to you to decide who was a worse candidate.
And the entire Nobel prize structure is a jacking off joke because of the Nobel Peace Prize? History has been VERY tough on Nobel Peace Prize winners.
What do you have against Linus Pauling?

[Winehole23]

wage theft lawsuits are an acceptable cost of doing business for Amazon, nothing more."Organized thieves are running us out of business"

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/employment-labor/994496-walgreens-employee-class-action-lawsuit-reaches-4-5m-settlement/


Four years ago, Walgreens told shareholders it planned to close 600 stores nationwide. It wound up closing 769. In 2019, the Illinois company said in a U.S. Security and Exchange Commission filing that it would shutter 200 stores, or fewer than 3% of its 10,000 locations in the U.S. — one of several cost-saving measures projected to save $1.5 billion in annual expenses by 2022, according to the filings.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/Is-shoplifting-forcing-Walgreens-to-cut-back-in-16536960.php

[spurraider21]

Uhhh long before Obama Yassir Arafat got the award. I will leave it up to you to decide who was a worse candidate.
And the entire Nobel prize structure is a jacking off joke because of the Nobel Peace Prize? History has been VERY tough on Nobel Peace Prize winners.
What do you have against Linus Pauling?
Gandhi never receiving it is more damning than any stupid ones given out.

[Winehole23]

Nobel Prize lost all credibility when they gave Obama the Nobel Peace Prize before he did a fucking think to promote peace, then added more troops to Afghanistan.. Just a bunch of liberals jacking each other off.Seed money for the prize came from Nobel's invention of TNT.

[Winehole23]

lol not noticing the liberal bias until black president got one

[CosmicCowboy]

Seed money for the prize came from Nobel's invention of TNT.

I am aware of that.

[CosmicCowboy]

lol not noticing the liberal bias until black president got one

Another of the many faulty assumptions made by whinehole.

[SnakeBoy]

$15 isn't enough...Putin's price hike I guess

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA19aFsP.img?w=768&h=547&m=6

[Winehole23]

be interesting to see if these results get replicated

1653843094394245124

[Winehole23]

In “High Minimum Wages and the Monopsony Puzzle (https://irle.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/High-Minimum-Wages-and-the-Monopsony-Puzzle.pdf),” a team of economists at the University of California, Berkeley examined 47 large U.S. counties where the minimum wage had reached $15 an hour by the first quarter of 2021, and compared their wage levels and employment figures to those of similar counties that hadn’t raised the minimum wage since 2009. They focused specifically on fast-food workers, so as to avoid the complexities introduced by the tipped-wages common among servers at more upscale restaurants.


Their results will shock Saltsman and his ideological sympathizers. First, raising the minimum wage successfully increased hourly pay for workers in the bottom 10 percent of the income distribution without reducing wages for those in the middle. Had New York and California failed to pass minimum wage increases, this narrowing of the gap between the bottom and middle rungs of the income ladder would not have occurred. Second, the implications for employment were very slightly positive: Counties that enacted minimum wages saw more job growth, not less.


Now, a conservative economist might counter that one reason why these minimum wage hikes didn’t increase unemployment is that New York City, San Francisco, and Los Angeles already had fairly high market wages, and saw considerable “natural” wage growth over this period. If researchers had focused narrowly on the impact of state-level minimum-wage hikes on relatively low-wage counties in upstate New York or inland California, they probably would have discovered substantial employment effects.





Happily, the Berkeley economists thought of this. To correct for the possibilities 1) that high-wage cities are disproportionately likely to enact large minimum wage increases and 2) that high market wages attenuate the employment implications of high minimum wages, they isolated the impact of state-level minimum wages on counties that had neither enacted local minimum wage increases nor enjoyed above-average market wages.


When they narrowed their lens, the researchers did in fact find that the employment impacts of minimum wage hikes became more profound: Rather than producing a slight increase in job growth, high minimum wages were associated with substantial increases in employment.


In truth, this finding is not all that surprising. Economists have long recognized that, under conditions of “monopsony” — which is to say, when there are just a small number of employers in a given labor market — modest increases in the minimum wage will not kill jobs and might even create them. And liberal analysts (https://democracyjournal.org/magazine/41/a-threat-not-a-theory/) had been arguing for decades that monopsony was far more common than generally appreciated.


Under conditions of monopsony, businesses do not need to offer competitive wages, since workers have few other employers they can turn to. Therefore, the market wage may substantially underprice the value that a given hour of labor actually provides to a firm. When the government steps in and forces wage rates up, businesses can afford to weather the increase in labor costs without slowing hiring, automating roles, or raising prices. Rather, they’re simply forced to divert a bit of their earnings away from ownership and towards staff.


That redistribution of income away from business owners to workers can, in turn, have a stimulative effect. Low-wage workers often live paycheck to paycheck and spend a high percentage of their earnings. Affluent business owners, by contrast, can often afford to stow away excess earnings. Thus, when you move dollars from the latter to the former, that money becomes more likely to circulate in the local economy. Which translates to higher demand for goods and services, such as fast food, which gives fast food restaurants an incentive to add more staff.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/05/new-study-finds-a-high-minimum-wage-creates-jobs.html

[Blake]

"..... Five years after Amazon.com Inc. raised wages to $15 an hour, half of warehouse workers surveyed by researchers say they struggle to afford enough food or a place to live.

The national study, published Wednesday by the University of Illinois Chicago’s Center for Urban Economic Development, asked US employees about their economic wellbeing, including whether they’d skipped meals, went hungry, or were worried about being able to make rent or mortgage payments....."

https://fortune.com/2024/05/16/amazon-warehouse-wages-15-hour-half-workers-surveyed-researchers-struggle-afford-food-rent/

[Winehole23]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GWGbthjXcAA95uf?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Winehole23]

inflation and unemployment Cassandras were wrong

1844413276488450328https://x.com/BrandonRichards/status/1844413276488450328

[Winehole23]

Lee Ohanian at Hoover published bunk research and had to retract six articles.

Almost like he worked backward from the ideological result they wanted


In September 2023, California passed a law to bring fast food workers’ minimum wage up from $16 to $20 an hour. A flurry of reports predictably followed from the likes of The Wall Street Journal, Employment Policies Institute, and the Hoover Institution claiming that restaurants and other businesses were already laying off workers based on the new law.



The Hoover Institution, a think tank with $879.8 million in total assets, continued to dig in against AB 1228, publishing multiple articles over the past year attempting to pin “lost jobs” on rising wages. At the heart of the research are three major claims made by Lee Ohanian, an economist at UCLA and senior fellow at The Hoover Institution:




Government jobs account for 96.5% of job growth in California over 2.5 years,
California lost 410,000 jobs from February 2020-February 2024, and,
California lost 10,000 jobs in the fast food sector since the minimum wage law was signed in September 2023.



All three claims are false, and the Hoover Institution has now had to retract six articles based on faulty research by Ohanian. The claims were first debunked by Invictus (https://bsky.app/profile/tbpinvictus.bsky.social), an anonymous poster—using the same publicly available data that Ohanian used as source for his analysis. In reality,




Between January 2022 and June 2024, private-sector jobs accounted for the majority of job growth in California, at 77.8%
California did not lose any jobs between February 2020 and Feburary 2024; it actually gained 290,000 jobs
California’s fast food sector has seen consistent growth, both in terms of jobs and the total number of establishments, outpacing national averages.



https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/71518c42-86be-46b8-9bae-72d7e1f09a3c