Grades: Spurs at Thunder - Feb. 24, 2021

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-oklahoma-city-thunder-game-28/

Interesting times, my friends. :toast

[lefty]

thanks

[lefty]

:lol people shitting on Mills for leaving Dort , a 31% 3 pt shooter, open but to be fair , what was Poeltl doing on that final play?

[slick'81]

What a shitty steal attempt by patty and lol poodle with the box out

[Fireball]

patty should not have turned the ball over ... win or OT it was

[spurs10]

Thanks for the grades. A sad way to end the game. Seems like Horford had a straight shot to the basket after Poeltl's attempt to steal left Patty between a rock and a hard place. The previous turnover was the beginning of the end though.

[BillMc]

I missed the game so these grades were really important for me. Thank you!

[barakz21]

Sucked they lost, but all things considered it wasn’t too bad. It took an explosion from SGA, hella 3s, and the culture’s attempt at being a hero to beat a short handed Spurs team. The DJ will only learn from this.

[Slippy]

Liked the look of Trey Jones and Diop. Luca just not so much but there were glimpses of plays that you gotta like. Agree with your grades

Thanks

[KingKev]

Really would have liked to see DJ goto work on our final offensive play. He is the heart and soul of this team.

[paperboy77]

Patty was not the worst option at the end but that double dribble was inexcusable.

[cjw]

Most NBA teams get annihilated when they’re down five rotation guys who essentially man all of their wing minutes. The loss stings as playoff race will be tight, but can’t hate the effort considering the awkward rotations they had to roll with.

[Truth4sale$]

Thanks for the grades. You read my mind on Samanic and Bates-Diop. Samanic showed some really sloppy ball handling, but I never saw that in the bubble games. Overall, he played solid on defense and would have liked to see him be more aggressive on offense.
I think from a chemistry stand point, it would have been better if Samanic was playing when Tre Jones was playing. They had some chemistry from the bubble.
Bates Diop, really looked solid and pretty confident. Really dissapointed that Lonnie did not have another breakout game. So pissed, by the last 20 seconds of Pattie Mills, I can deal with leaving a guy open for a 3, (spurs have sucked at defending the 3- all year) but the double dribble---geez! Spurs couldn't even get a shot off, and he spends a lot of time over dribbling instead of moving the ball around.

[Dejounte]

DeMar will probably be back next game:

Murray/ Tre
Lonnie/ Mills
DeMar/ KBD
Luka/ Lyles
Poeltl/ Aldridge/ Eubanks

[Dejounte]

Uh oh... DJ liked this tweet:

https://twitter.com/SASpursFamily/status/1364775671634022403?s=19

[SpursDynasty85]

Poetl getting only 7 shots in a game like this doesn't make sense. We can't even get him 2 shots per quarter?

[KobesAchilles]

Uh oh... DJ liked this tweet:

https://twitter.com/SASpursFamily/status/1364775671634022403?s=19
I mean it was the most obvious play, too obvious for Pop. He rather go outside the box and have the Wombat double dribble. I can't say I fault him much

[spurraider21]

Poetl getting only 7 shots in a game like this doesn't make sense. We can't even get him 2 shots per quarter?
Missing out two best pick and roll players... Derozan and White

[John B]

Thanks Timvp. It was a freak loss, and shouldn’t reflect the effort, especially of our young guys. I think they responded with gusto. Tre is not going back to the GLeague. He is getting Mill’s backup PG role. He has the IQ and composure of a lottery pick. And once his shots get falling, he will be a solid PG for Spurs for a very long time.

KBD earned his minutes. The guy is long and athletic. He was playing hard and was rewarded. And he made an open 3 which is a bonus.

Luka likewise. He showed he will be good for us. He is still a working progress, but Spurs know they got a mobile big in him.

Aldridge played great. He was behind a couple of plays on the defense, but I like that he was pounding the post and punishing his young defender.

Murray is a star. He is taking it on his shoulder and showing it.

Pop made a great plan and almost worked.

[John B]

DeMar will probably be back next game:

Murray/ Tre
Lonnie/ Mills
DeMar/ KBD
Luka/ Lyles
Poeltl/ Aldridge/ Eubanks

That looks solid to me. I’d put Mills in starter instead of Lonnie because he will shoot instead of pass. Plus Tre and Mills together could be disastrous.

[Dex]

Overall, I was pleased with the team's performance. The last-minute meltdown sucked, but it's hard to complain when you lose on a buzzer-beater in a game you had no business winning in the first place. Spurs were also missing chip shots in the beginning while the Thunder were raining down threes, so that sure didn't help the cause.

COVID may seriously screw this season if our main lineup is expected to miss extended time (which seems to be the case)...but at least the young guys are getting valuable experience and getting a chance to show us why they were selected in the first place.

Samanic seems to have the tools, but doesn't know what to do if he isn't being spoon-fed opportunities like he is in the GLeague. Tre Jones wasn't spectacular but kept the team steady. KBD showed some good and bad on both sides of the floor.

[PrimeMinister]

good effort overall considering the circumstances...

I understand rewarding Patty but with so much time on the clock it's really hard not to give the ball to your leading scorer to at least initiate the offense with the kick out in mind. Patty bailed us out but in an iso situation like that give it to your closer and trust him to make the right play.

Luka did what he had to do tonight which was be solid and not play yourself out of the rotation. Still a bit gun shy which will go away with time, the hand off to Jakob leading to a turnover was typical rookie type jitters playing hot potato. Most liked his ability to challenge drives to the rim- actually at times looked like our most competent on ball defender and I'm excited to see him build on that. Liked the instincts getting the ball on the fastbreak and calling his own number, getting to his spot and hitting a contested baby hook.

Lonnie I feel with time will figure out how to score with more consistency, especially if the roster does open up for him say next year. However defensive efforts like last night are becoming too consistent for him. He shows flashes of ability to stay in front, but for the most part he has 0 ability to limit penetration on the perimeter. I can forgive offensive growing pains, but his defensive effort this year has been terrible.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1364969667941584897?s=19

YEAH R. DeMurre Shut up, nerd!!!

[NASpurs]

Uh oh... DJ liked this tweet:

https://twitter.com/SASpursFamily/status/1364775671634022403?s=19

Can’t blame him honestly.

[Dejounte]

My greatest takeaway was what I stated before the game, which was the idea that Samanic would get demolished on defense as a small forward. He more than held his own. In fact, the only thing stopping him is himself. If it's other players constantly beating you, stopping you, destroying you, then you're not an NBA player. Luka looks like he belongs.

Sorry TimDunkem , your dream of having one of the players from your favorite team fail miserably doesn't look like it's going to happen. Probably best to look for another player from your favorite team and hope that they will fail. It's a wholesome dream and I support it.

[rjv]

Disagree on blaming Patty for the last play. Poeltl needlessly went for the steal on the inbound pass, giving Horford a clear path to the rim. That forced Patty to get in his path, which left Dort wide open. That said, Patty's double dribble was ridiculously bad.

[SPURt]

It was surprising the Spurs came so close to winning considering the state of the roster. It’s inevitable that every once in a while, every team will be on the wrong side of a buzzer beater. I’m glad it happened under these circumstances.

[RC_Drunkford]

Poetl getting only 7 shots in a game like this doesn't make sense. We can't even get him 2 shots per quarter?

he missed like 3 wide open lay ups and you want him to get more touches????

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'd of liked to see what Murray could do at the end. Pop went the "safe" route with Mills, but DJM played the game with no turnovers, so conceivably, worst case is that we're looking at overtime.

Time to see how the kids can do in the clutch. We already know Mills' and DeRozan's buttholes tend to pucker up in those last 10 seconds.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

I can kinda understand why they gave the ball to Patty at the end of the 4th. He had it going and actually brought the team back scoring 7 straight points or something close to that. I can’t believe he double dribbles though. I could understand him holding the ball and not getting a shot off but to double dribble? SMH.

Jakob going for the steal was so damn dumb. All he had to do was play it straight up and not foul. OKC could’ve still hit a shot but to go for the steal (trying to reach over a guys back, no less) on a tie game with that little amount of time on the game clock is stupid. If Patty wouldn’t have helped Horford most likely had a easy lay up attempt.


dejounte played really well, Bates Diop looked good in the 2nd half of the game. I missed the whole 1st half and watched from mid 3rd quarter until the end. Very disappointed in Lonnie not stepping up a bit more but honestly not too surprised.

thanks for the grades and game recap.

[John B]

https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1364969667941584897?s=19

YEAH R. DeMurre (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14577) Shut up, nerd!!!
Sorry but I'm a Spurs fan not because of high flying dunks, but how well they play the game.

[John B]

I'd of liked to see what Murray could do at the end. Pop went the "safe" route with Mills, but DJM played the game with no turnovers, so conceivably, worst case is that we're looking at overtime.

Time to see how the kids can do in the clutch. We already know Mills' and DeRozan's buttholes tend to pucker up in those last 10 seconds.

That should've been Murray's ball. Pop was wrong not to give it to him. Murray needs those opportunities that he has this team on his back. That's what "stars" do, and Murray is fast becoming a star.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/KSATRJ/status/1364997172039622661?s=19

[SpursDynasty85]

he missed like 3 wide open lay ups and you want him to get more touches????

yes. Which player hasn’t looked like crap for periods of a game? DJ has looked pretty bad for longer stretches than that.

[TimDunkem]

My greatest takeaway was what I stated before the game, which was the idea that Samanic would get demolished on defense as a small forward. He more than held his own. In fact, the only thing stopping him is himself. If it's other players constantly beating you, stopping you, destroying you, then you're not an NBA player. Luka looks like he belongs.

Sorry TimDunkem , your dream of having one of the players from your favorite team fail miserably doesn't look like it's going to happen. Probably best to look for another player from your favorite team and hope that they will fail. It's a wholesome dream and I support it.

You sound like a casual.

[Dejounte]

You sound like a casual.

When haven't you sounded like one?

[TimDunkem]

When haven't you sounded like one?
Certainly less overall than you have in your short time here.

[Dejounte]

Certainly less overall than you have in your short time here.

I forget sometimes how small the brains are of people I'm speaking with on here.

[TimDunkem]

I forget sometimes how small the brains are of people I'm speaking with on here.
You keep thinking that. I'll keep scrolling by your posts.

[Dejounte]

You keep thinking that. I'll keep scrolling by your posts.

No love lost.

[Ocotillo]

Bates-Diop did nicely. When you think about it, even before the COVID break he was hardly getting sniff of the court so it was highly likely he would be rusty but he played well. With so much of the lineup sitting for the time being it will be interesting to see if he can build on this performance.

[quentin_compson]

I'm not sure I like Mills handling the penultimate possession. I would be absolutely fine with him taking the last shot, but him having the ball before that, I don't know ...
That being sad, the turnover was a bad mistake, silly really, but shit happens. It's not like this would happen to Mills eigth times out of ten.
Nice game overall from our guys, just not quite the ending one wanted to see ...

[Dejounte]

Bates-Diop did nicely. When you think about it, even before the COVID break he was hardly getting sniff of the court so it was highly likely he would be rusty but he played well. With so much of the lineup sitting for the time being it will be interesting to see if he can build on this performance.

At first, I thought he was strictly a PF but he moves well enough to be a SF.

[John B]

At first, I thought he was strictly a PF but he moves well enough to be a SF.
If he can knock those 3’s more consistently, he could be Lyle’s replacement. Lyles have great moves when he wants to, but that’s when he wants to :dramaquee

[Dejounte]

If he can knock those 3’s more consistently, he could be Lyle’s replacement. Lyles have great moves when he wants to, but that’s when he wants to :dramaquee

When everyone is back:

Murray/ Mills/ Tre
White/ Lonnie/ Q
DeMar/ Vassell/ KBD
Keldon/ Gay/ Luka/ Lyles
Poeltl/ Aldridge/ Eubanks

I wish Tre would take Mills' minutes and Luka would take Gay's minutes but we all know that ain't happening this season.

[John B]

When everyone is back:

Murray/ Mills/ Tre
White/ Lonnie/ Q
DeMar/ Vassell/ KBD
Keldon/ Gay/ Luka/ Lyles
Poeltl/ Aldridge/ Eubanks

I wish Tre would take Mills' minutes and Luka would take Gay's minutes but we all know that ain't happening this season.

They will for sure. Last night was a glimpse of that. It really puts the Spurs in a great position come free agency knowing those are covered. Such a solid pick on Tre and from the 2nd round also. I think Mills and Demar will be back, and we let Aldridge, Gay and Lyles walk. I’m not certain what they will do with Lonnie. He frustrates me with all his talents

[DAF86]

It really sucks that the best stretch of the season will be fucked by COVID. We are going to lose a lot of ground.

[Mugen]

It really sucks that the best stretch of the season will be fucked by COVID. We are going to lose a lot of ground.

Big fat asterisks on last season and this one obviously. It is what it is.

[spurraider21]

i dont know what you guys are seeing with Tre tbh... he just looks like a slow CoJo. cant really turn the corner on offense. isnt a shooting threat. heady defender, sure, but he just looks like dead weight on the other side.

[Dejounte]

i dont know what you guys are seeing with Tre tbh... he just looks like a slow CoJo. cant really turn the corner on offense. isnt a shooting threat. heady defender, sure, but he just looks like dead weight on the other side.
Wait til you see what he can do with shooters surrounding him.

[John B]

i dont know what you guys are seeing with Tre tbh... he just looks like a slow CoJo. cant really turn the corner on offense. isnt a shooting threat. heady defender, sure, but he just looks like dead weight on the other side.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDiCNPrBhiM

[Seventyniner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDiCNPrBhiM

Just like CoJo, right?

FvEdZBeAa6k

[Dex]

Just like CoJo, right?

FvEdZBeAa6k

One of my favorite plays from 2014. I do think that created a spark for the team as a whole.

I also love Manu's face like "I didn't know he could do that?"

[Ocotillo]

Tre is going to have to work on his shooting but as we always say, we got Chip.

[spurraider21]

im not hitting any panic alarms on Tre, he's still young obviously. but i dont see him as being ready to be a rotation player right now, at all... yet people are talking about him as though he should be playing 20 mpg in the big leagues. i just dont see it

[TD 21]

Considering they were 5 games over .500 with a -0.4 point differential, they were due for a losing streak despite what was a mostly favorable upcoming schedule.

Still, the timing and the players lost couldn't have been worse and was again typical of the post '14 Spurs, where bad news is seemingly always lurking.

With a brutal 40 games in 68 days post All-Star break and essentially 11 teams vying for 10 spots, no matter their state, losing a tight game to arguably the least talented team in the league is a significant setback.

[John B]

Just like CoJo, right?

FvEdZBeAa6k
:lol:lol:lol:lol You got me there. I almost forgot that poster dunk on Ibaka :toast:toast

[R. DeMurre]

https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1364969667941584897?s=19

YEAH R. DeMurre (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14577) Shut up, nerd!!!

:lol

(Iverson was overrated)

[Slippy]

This game more than any other game needed Lonny focused on scoring. Man he had me cursing the screen. Lost count the amount of times he passed it off after driving into the keyway. He looked to score on maybe 1 drive when he made the athletic layup towards the end.

That scorers mentality is gone.

[Fireball]

This game more than any other game needed Lonny focused on scoring. Man he had me cursing the screen. Lost count the amount of times he passed it off after driving into the keyway. He looked to score on maybe 1 drive when he made the athletic layup towards the end.

That scorers mentality is gone. I shook my head as well several times ... wish he would have the same mentality as earlier in the season when Demar was missing two games

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1365346836425359367?s=19

#leader

[Sugus]

This game more than any other game needed Lonny focused on scoring. Man he had me cursing the screen. Lost count the amount of times he passed it off after driving into the keyway. He looked to score on maybe 1 drive when he made the athletic layup towards the end.

That scorers mentality is gone.

Posters here will have you believe that it was never there, just because it'd mean Pop might have fucked up his confidence and development...

I'm starting to wonder whether he's too far gone already. At this point, it's clear he needs a change of air of some sort (preferably a new coach... Sadly, maybe a new team) to get back on track. Or just a really long, focused off-season, whichever does the trick.

[Sugus]

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1365346836425359367?s=19

#leader

:lmao aren't the stands empty due to COVID...? Such a wack-ass league with these random fines :lol

[Dejounte]

:lmao aren't the stands empty due to COVID...? Such a wack-ass league with these random fines :lolhttps://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1365349293381607432?s=09

"I can't kick Patty, so I'll kick this fucking ball instead!"

I swear it looks like he was aiming for Patty then pivoted for the ball at the last second... :lmao

[ace3g]

I hadn't noticed the kick until I saw the tweet a few minutes ago, lol

[Sugus]

https://twitter.com/JeffGSpursZone/status/1365349293381607432?s=09

"I can't kick Patty, so I'll kick this fucking ball instead!"

I swear it looks like he was aiming for Patty then pivoted for the ball at the last second... :lmao

LMFAO, thanks for the link. I hadn't noticed the incident either, hilarious shit, and though I still don't agree with it, I can see the reasoning behind the fine. Having said that, it's good to see DJ showing some emotion after that air-sucking loss.... The rest of the team looked so lethargic and defeated, it's good that DJ's visibly pissed. I'd love to see what went down in the locker room afterwards, tbh.

[Thomas82]

Considering they were 5 games over .500 with a -0.4 point differential, they were due for a losing streak despite what was a mostly favorable upcoming schedule.

Still, the timing and the players lost couldn't have been worse and was again typical of the post '14 Spurs, where bad news is seemingly always lurking.

With a brutal 40 games in 68 days post All-Star break and essentially 11 teams vying for 10 spots, no matter their state, losing a tight game to arguably the least talented team in the league is a significant setback.

Well said!!

[Slippy]

Posters here will have you believe that it was never there, just because it'd mean Pop might have fucked up his confidence and development...

I'm starting to wonder whether he's too far gone already. At this point, it's clear he needs a change of air of some sort (preferably a new coach... Sadly, maybe a new team) to get back on track. Or just a really long, focused off-season, whichever does the trick.

Not sure either .. change of surroundings might be the tonic . Can tell Pop is in his head for sure

[rankingtear]

Posters here will have you believe that it was never there, just because it'd mean Pop might have fucked up his confidence and development...

I'm starting to wonder whether he's too far gone already. At this point, it's clear he needs a change of air of some sort (preferably a new coach... Sadly, maybe a new team) to get back on track. Or just a really long, focused off-season, whichever does the trick.

https://www.thestepien.com/lonnie-walker/

WEAKNESSES



Stops short of getting all the way to the rim too often in advantage situation attacks and doesn’t get into the teeth of the defense in self-creation situations.
Lacks purpose as a dribbler, self-creator and passer. Will aimlessly kill his dribble with driving lanes present, take pull-up jumpers on switches with better options available and a lot of his passes don’t bend the defense.

[Dejounte]

https://www.thestepien.com/lonnie-walker/

WEAKNESSES



Stops short of getting all the way to the rim too often in advantage situation attacks and doesn’t get into the teeth of the defense in self-creation situations.
Lacks purpose as a dribbler, self-creator and passer. Will aimlessly kill his dribble with driving lanes present,


Just reading that raises my blood pressure. WTF LONNIE

[Slippy]

https://www.thestepien.com/lonnie-walker/

WEAKNESSES



Stops short of getting all the way to the rim too often in advantage situation attacks and doesn’t get into the teeth of the defense in self-creation situations.
Lacks purpose as a dribbler, self-creator and passer. Will aimlessly kill his dribble with driving lanes present,


Have you been watching?

With the second weakness it aint a weakness no more... hes finding those driving lanes but overpassing. Needs to get back to looking to score.. Currently moreso than ever spurs needs his scoring... thats the infuriating part and that development has kind of stalled.

[rankingtear]

However, the fact that the light never fully went on for Walker is disconcerting. He looks better as a prospect when you look at the micro projectable components of his game such as his shooting and on-ball defense, but when you step back to look at his game in a macro-sense playing within a team construct especially contributing to winning, his lack of instincts on both ends and dicey on-ball creation dynamism paints a more skeptical picture. The reality is Walker is going to have to become a knockdown high volume 3-point shooter to justify him going in the lottery area, and while he has some sneaky Donovan Mitchell mechanics upside that isn’t buttressed by the stats (emphasis on only the shooting mechanics element here), that aspect of his game also isn’t a shoe-in. In the 20s range Walker has some two-way appeal, especially if he goes to the right development situation, but as a riskier shot-dependent prospect, he has a low floor.

— Cole Zwicker, 5.3.18

On point analysis by Cole on Lonnie. The volume 3 point shooting is what's keeping him afloat right now.

[rankingtear]

Have you been watching?

With the second weakness it aint a weakness no more... hes finding those driving lanes but overpassing. Needs to get back to looking to score.. Currently moreso than ever spurs needs his scoring... thats the infuriating part and that development has kind of stalled.

Sorry didn't paste the whole thing,

Lacks purpose as a dribbler, self-creator and passer. Will aimlessly kill his dribble with driving lanes present, take pull-up jumpers on switches with better options available and a lot of his passes don’t bend the defense.


Yeah he decreased his mid range attempts, although he had one last game, don't recall if he had an open lane.

[Dex]

Posters here will have you believe that it was never there, just because it'd mean Pop might have fucked up his confidence and development...

I'm starting to wonder whether he's too far gone already. At this point, it's clear he needs a change of air of some sort (preferably a new coach... Sadly, maybe a new team) to get back on track. Or just a really long, focused off-season, whichever does the trick.

I still don't buy that "Pop fucked up his confidence".

He gave him a starting position. He's given him a green light to shoot or create. He puts him in rotations where Walker SHOULD be the most aggressive person on the floor...and instead he just fades into the background any time he hits a tiny bit of resistance.

At a certain point, it's on Lonnie to look himself in the mirror and decide what kind of player he wants to be. Pop isn't the one making him throw the ball back out to the three-point line when he has a wide open lane to the hoop.

Pop is hard on Walker for defensive mistakes, and rightfully so. But the offense is all in Lonnie's head right now, and that's not all Pop's fault.

[Sugus]

https://www.thestepien.com/lonnie-walker/

WEAKNESSES



Stops short of getting all the way to the rim too often in advantage situation attacks and doesn’t get into the teeth of the defense in self-creation situations.
Lacks purpose as a dribbler, self-creator and passer. Will aimlessly kill his dribble with driving lanes present, take pull-up jumpers on switches with better options available and a lot of his passes don’t bend the defense.


First, it's inaccurate to say Lonnie lacks purpose at dribbling at this point, when his problems are much more finishing-related. He can and does perfectly get to the rim whenever he wants (perhaps the most infuriating aspect in all of this), but coughs the ball up at the last second. There's a difference. He also doesn't "kill his dribble" like described in that scouting report, or well, he doesn't do it to a point that I notice it as a heavy flaw in his game. Definitely do point out recent instances when he's done it, because to me, it doesn't look like a present problem. Again, his troubles lie elsewhere.

And the notable aspect, that I was ever alluding to, is that he's playing notably worse than he ever did last season. His confidence is even lower than it was when he was getting benched for Forbes. His decisiveness when faced with the rim is gone, whereas last season, he rarely passed it out, instead his problem being he was shying away from contact, which made him always try over-acrobatic layups when a simple one would've done the trick. But that pass, pass, PASS! instinct? That was never there, and I'll (verbally) fight any poster who says otherwise, because it's simply not true.

Overall, that report doesn't address Lonnie's current problems, which is to be expected, but also makes posting that kind of pointless (to the point I was making ofc).

[Sugus]

Have you been watching?

With the second weakness it aint a weakness no more... hes finding those driving lanes but overpassing. Needs to get back to looking to score.. Currently moreso than ever spurs needs his scoring... thats the infuriating part and that development has kind of stalled.

Agreed, it seems people haven't been focusing on Lonnie at all this season, and are compounding his earlier troubles with these recent ones. He's HARDLY the same player he was as a rookie, and NOT in a good way, yet posters here would have you think he's failed to develop or something. There is such a thing as mishandling a prospect - and of course, there is such a thing as a prospect getting into their own heads irreparably, or never taking "that step", or putting it all together. At the end of the day, I don't think we'll ever know the real root of the problem - that is, unless Lonnie does get traded, and his performance picks up under a different coach/scheme/team.

I'll gladly admit I was wrong if he is traded, and fuzzles out of the league due to these current holes in his game. But to say that there's no way Pop fucked up his development, is preposterous.

[Dejounte]

Agreed, it seems people haven't been focusing on Lonnie at all this season, and are compounding his earlier troubles with these recent ones. He's HARDLY the same player he was as a rookie, and NOT in a good way, yet posters here would have you think he's failed to develop or something. There is such a thing as mishandling a prospect - and of course, there is such a thing as a prospect getting into their own heads irreparably, or never taking "that step", or putting it all together. At the end of the day, I don't think we'll ever know the real root of the problem - that is, unless Lonnie does get traded, and his performance picks up under a different coach/scheme/team.

I'll gladly admit I was wrong if he is traded, and fuzzles out of the league due to these current holes in his game. But to say that there's no way Pop fucked up his development, is preposterous.

My guy,

Since there's proof that the frustrating way Lonnie is playing now is the same way he played in college, could it be that the way Lonnie played during his rookie year was the anomaly and not the other way around? Has that ever been a consideration? I mean, if there's a pattern of behavior, shouldn't that be likely more truthful about his performance than the one year he played aggressive, no?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to stir everyone's thoughts about this subject.

[Sugus]

I still don't buy that "Pop fucked up his confidence".

He gave him a starting position. He's given him a green light to shoot or create. He puts him in rotations where Walker SHOULD be the most aggressive person on the floor...and instead he just fades into the background any time he hits a tiny bit of resistance.

At a certain point, it's on Lonnie to look himself in the mirror and decide what kind of player he wants to be. Pop isn't the one making him throw the ball back out to the three-point line when he has a wide open lane to the hoop.

Pop is hard on Walker for defensive mistakes, and rightfully so. But the offense is all in Lonnie's head right now, and that's not all Pop's fault.

A starting job is little improvement if you're still constantly being punished for your performance and playing your game. At its core, I think Pop really believed he could take the "hard dog" approach with Lonnie, as he'd done with Tony or Manu or whomever, when Lonnie just doesn't have that personality at all. Instead of getting hungry and driven from getting benched and screamed at after his first defensive miscue, he just gets in his own head, and once his confidence takes a hit, he disappears into the background. That kind of personality requires a different, positive-reinforcement based approach, which I simply haven't seen Pop try at all. At least not on the court.

At the bottomline though, I don't at all disagree that a big part of the problem is on Lonnie. I'm still (maybe one of the only posters here) holding out hope for him, but it's no secret that he should be better right now. I definitely blame him for his passiveness, his non-improvement on the defensive end and high-reads in general, and overall not "stepping up". BUT, I think you can also perfectly point out his developmental curve (which again, was on a rise, with his bubble performance being a definitive peak where he DID NOT PLAY LIKE HE DOES THIS SEASON, only to come back down this season) and wonder whether the developmental staff (Pop mainly) fuck it up.

I don't see how both things can't be true at the same time. Here in ST, people are always so absolute about everything - either he's trash and we gotta get rid of him, or he's just a season away from superstardom. Either he was always a "beta male destined to fail" or Pop pissed on his cereal every day to get him like this. Why can't a middle ground be found? I see both things, and we all saw both things, happening these past years. Or were we collectively hallucinating Lonnie getting benched for Forbes and Beli, who proceeded to have league-worst defensive performances without a hit taken to their minutes and team roles? Nah.

Ultimately, you're right, the offensive side is all in Lonnie's head right now. I'm beginning to wonder whether he'll ever "get it out". Ironically, I agree with you also - it's not all Pop's fault. My original point is against the posters saying none of it is on Pop, or that Lonnie has not improved since his rookie season (flat out false), or that he was destined to fail from the jump due to some rando scouting report. That's where I draw my line.

[Dex]

A starting job is little improvement if you're still constantly being punished for your performance and playing your game. At its core, I think Pop really believed he could take the "hard dog" approach with Lonnie, as he'd done with Tony or Manu or whomever, when Lonnie just doesn't have that personality at all. Instead of getting hungry and driven from getting benched and screamed at after his first defensive miscue, he just gets in his own head, and once his confidence takes a hit, he disappears into the background. That kind of personality requires a different, positive-reinforcement based approach, which I simply haven't seen Pop try at all. At least not on the court.

At the bottomline though, I don't at all disagree that a big part of the problem is on Lonnie. I'm still (maybe one of the only posters here) holding out hope for him, but it's no secret that he should be better right now. I definitely blame him for his passiveness, his non-improvement on the defensive end and high-reads in general, and overall not "stepping up". BUT, I think you can also perfectly point out his developmental curve (which again, was on a rise, with his bubble performance being a definitive peak where he DID NOT PLAY LIKE HE DOES THIS SEASON, only to come back down this season) and wonder whether the developmental staff (Pop mainly) fuck it up.

I don't see how both things can't be true at the same time. Here in ST, people are always so absolute about everything - either he's trash and we gotta get rid of him, or he's just a season away from superstardom. Either he was always a "beta male destined to fail" or Pop pissed on his cereal every day to get him like this. Why can't a middle ground be found? I see both things, and we all saw both things, happening these past years. Or were we collectively hallucinating Lonnie getting benched for Forbes and Beli, who proceeded to have league-worst defensive performances without a hit taken to their minutes and team roles? Nah.

Ultimately, you're right, the offensive side is all in Lonnie's head right now. I'm beginning to wonder whether he'll ever "get it out". Ironically, I agree with you also - it's not all Pop's fault. My original point is against the posters saying none of it is on Pop, or that Lonnie has not improved since his rookie season (flat out false), or that he was destined to fail from the jump due to some rando scouting report. That's where I draw my line.

Good post, and I agree with everything you said....but especially this:


Here in ST, people are always so absolute about everything - either he's trash and we gotta get rid of him, or he's just a season away from superstardom. Either he was always a "beta male destined to fail" or Pop pissed on his cereal every day to get him like this. Why can't a middle ground be found?

Pop ultimately runs the team, so he deserves some blame for anything related to that.

Managing people and personalities is a difficult job...and there really is no black-and-white answer for that. Each personality is different, and reacts differently to conflict. There is a share of blame to go around, and people here like to jump to point fingers (and I may be guilty of that myself).

My biggest disappointment is that we've seen guys like Murray or Johnson or even Eubanks be more assertive....even if they were drafted later or not drafted at all. Lonnie obviously has a complex personality...but he has also been given opportunties and hasn't taken full advantage of them.

Pop should not be expected to a coddle a guy who, frankly, isn't performing to his abilities. But that's my opinion.

[rankingtear]

First, it's inaccurate to say Lonnie lacks purpose at dribbling at this point, when his problems are much more finishing-related. He can and does perfectly get to the rim whenever he wants (perhaps the most infuriating aspect in all of this), but coughs the ball up at the last second. There's a difference. He also doesn't "kill his dribble" like described in that scouting report, or well, he doesn't do it to a point that I notice it as a heavy flaw in his game. Definitely do point out recent instances when he's done it, because to me, it doesn't look like a present problem. Again, his troubles lie elsewhere.

And the notable aspect, that I was ever alluding to, is that he's playing notably worse than he ever did last season. His confidence is even lower than it was when he was getting benched for Forbes. His decisiveness when faced with the rim is gone, whereas last season, he rarely passed it out, instead his problem being he was shying away from contact, which made him always try over-acrobatic layups when a simple one would've done the trick. But that pass, pass, PASS! instinct? That was never there, and I'll (verbally) fight any poster who says otherwise, because it's simply not true.

Overall, that report doesn't address Lonnie's current problems, which is to be expected, but also makes posting that kind of pointless (to the point I was making ofc).

Maybe it's scheme related since we run a drive and kick offense or that teams are packing the paint because our offense is built on drives to the rim.

[Sugus]

My guy,

Since there's proof that the frustrating way Lonnie is playing now is the same way he played in college, could it be that the way Lonnie played during his rookie year was the anomaly and not the other way around? Has that ever been a consideration? I mean, if there's a pattern of behavior, shouldn't that be likely more truthful about his performance than the one year he played aggressive, no?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to stir everyone's thoughts about this subject.

Disagree wholeheartedly with that assessment, D.

Aren't you also in the camp of "don't base you conclusions on other people's appreciations, but your own eyes"? I can confidently say, having scouted Lonnie before we drafted him (I had a, still ongoing, bet with an IRL friend of mine that he would turn out to be one of the stars of his draft), then watching him in Summer League, then Austin that whole season (actually watching the games, mind you, you yourself should remember my comments in the Austin Toros thread), then last season with the Big Boy Spurs, and now this one - that Lonnie does not play the way he did in college. He just doesn't. And I'm perfectly content dying on this hill, because my eyes and film back it up. I don't think there's a lot of posters here (or basketball "analysts") that have followed Lonnie like I do, and while I'm certainly not impartial in this debate, I know bullshit when I see it. Or read it.

Just so you see I'm not bullshitting you with words alone - let's look at some film.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc1om_prJh8

First one I found of his college games, since his "highlights" searches on Youtube now mostly belong to his Spurs stint. You watch that film, then watch the film of our loss against the Thunder last game, then come back and tell me he's always played this way. This was before his "anomalous" rookie season, of course. Check that clutch layup, driving into traffic, at 3:20. NO OVERPASSING TENDENCIES whatsoever, you know he was going for that basket even if all 5 defenders were on the paint against him - and he's got the tools to make it work! He's always got them. He NEVER had those tendencies in college. My point is that something happened between then - and now. And it might not be just on Lonnie. That's all I'm saying.

But to say he plays the same now as he did when that "weaknesses" report was written? Yeah, bullshit, I'm not falling for that.

[Sugus]

Maybe it's scheme related since we run a drive and kick offense or that teams are packing the paint because our offense is built on drives to the rim.

It might absolutely got something to do with it. Lonnie was always touted (and always played with) a scorer's mentality, and I have little doubt that a part of his "development" as a Spurs player was getting him to drop the ball-hoggling, and follow the "extra pass, find the open man" philosophy which Pop loves so much. Is it a bad philosophy to have? NO. I really think it's a great team scheme. But maybe, maybe, you didn't have to over-drill that into his head ("neutering him", as local clown Duncan2k5 calls it) and try to change up his game at the fundamental level.

The best case scenario would've been that he kept his scoring mentality, whilst also learning the nuances of passing out, and leveraging his athleticism into open shots for his teammates. To an extent, I can still see that happening - if it all "clicks together". But it's looking more and more likely that we now have neither: We're getting a Lonnie who's too afraid to call his own number, too preoccupied with making "the right play", and in over-trying to do so, fails at both scoring for himself, and creating for his teammates.

Worst case scenario, for sure, if he doesn't change his ways.

[Sugus]

Good post, and I agree with everything you said....but especially this:



Pop ultimately runs the team, so he deserves some blame for anything related to that.

Managing people and personalities is a difficult job...and there really is no black-and-white answer for that. Each personality is different, and reacts differently to conflict. There is a share of blame to go around, and people here like to jump to point fingers (and I may be guilty of that myself).

My biggest disappointment is that we've seen guys like Murray or Johnson or even Eubanks be more assertive....even if they were drafted later or not drafted at all. Lonnie obviously has a complex personality...but he has also been given opportunties and hasn't taken full advantage of them.

Pop should not be expected to a coddle a guy who, frankly, isn't performing to his abilities. But that's my opinion.

You know you're my guy, Dex, I appreciate the nuanced answer.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Ultimately, a lot of what I'm writing is just lashing out - I'm frustrated at him. I'm frustrated at Pop. I'm not happy with his performances, especially when this year was (and still is) his opportunity to shine. I also think there's some factors playing a part that we haven't considered - COVID fucked up prospects' development in all sorts of ways, and this last off-season might've been the worst one (outside of maybe the lockout seasons) for players to grow their game, due to the low time that it had and the difficulties of the pandemic. That's why I've been saying since the season started, that IMO Lonnie is still a year away.

Lastly, whilst I personally will always partly blame Pop for what happens to Lonnie, it's ok if he doesn't work out. He wasn't a #1 pick or anything, and no team ever hits on ALL of their picks - though the Spurs have always came pretty damn close to that. Every other prospect we have (except for like, what, Wheatherspoon I guess?) is blossoming in this system; so at the end of the day, if losing Lonnie is the price to pay for having a system that allows every other player to grow and develop together, I'm fine with it. Sad, but fine. Spurs fan through and through at the end of the day...

...Though I'll probably catch some of Lonnie's games on whatever team he has his second stint with. Just gotta hope it's not the Fakers :(

[BillMc]

Disagree wholeheartedly with that assessment, D.

Aren't you also in the camp of "don't base you conclusions on other people's appreciations, but your own eyes"? I can confidently say, having scouted Lonnie before we drafted him (I had a, still ongoing, bet with an IRL friend of mine that he would turn out to be one of the stars of his draft), then watching him in Summer League, then Austin that whole season (actually watching the games, mind you, you yourself should remember my comments in the Austin Toros thread), then last season with the Big Boy Spurs, and now this one - that Lonnie does not play the way he did in college. He just doesn't. And I'm perfectly content dying on this hill, because my eyes and film back it up. I don't think there's a lot of posters here (or basketball "analysts") that have followed Lonnie like I do, and while I'm certainly not impartial in this debate, I know bullshit when I see it. Or read it.

Just so you see I'm not bullshitting you with words alone - let's look at some film.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc1om_prJh8

First one I found of his college games, since his "highlights" searches on Youtube now mostly belong to his Spurs stint. You watch that film, then watch the film of our loss against the Thunder last game, then come back and tell me he's always played this way. This was before his "anomalous" rookie season, of course. Check that clutch layup, driving into traffic, at 3:20. NO OVERPASSING TENDENCIES whatsoever, you know he was going for that basket even if all 5 defenders were on the paint against him - and he's got the tools to make it work! He's always got them. He NEVER had those tendencies in college. My point is that something happened between then - and now. And it might not be just on Lonnie. That's all I'm saying.

But to say he plays the same now as he did when that "weaknesses" report was written? Yeah, bullshit, I'm not falling for that.

This is a really interesting discussion with good points on either side. Sugus, you said you've followed Lonnie since college. How was he as a collegiate defender? (I have no idea). Because, truthfully, while we have seen flashes of Lonnie's potential on offense as a pro, and I want to give him sometime (he's ony 22), my greater worry is I haven't seen anything from him in terms of consistent defense. So, unless his offense just explodes, it'll be tough to keep him on the court with his poor defensive efforts. (That's just my eye test percerption, I have no idea if the stats confirm this.)

Lonnie seems like a great guy and he's got great athleticism and at least good offensive skills. Much like I said with Luka, if the "light goes on" for him, he'll be something special. But if he's going to get an extension (and not buried behind Devin) he needs to hurry.

[Dejounte]

Disagree wholeheartedly with that assessment, D.

Aren't you also in the camp of "don't base you conclusions on other people's appreciations, but your own eyes"? I can confidently say, having scouted Lonnie before we drafted him (I had a, still ongoing, bet with an IRL friend of mine that he would turn out to be one of the stars of his draft), then watching him in Summer League, then Austin that whole season (actually watching the games, mind you, you yourself should remember my comments in the Austin Toros thread), then last season with the Big Boy Spurs, and now this one - that Lonnie does not play the way he did in college. He just doesn't. And I'm perfectly content dying on this hill, because my eyes and film back it up. I don't think there's a lot of posters here (or basketball "analysts") that have followed Lonnie like I do, and while I'm certainly not impartial in this debate, I know bullshit when I see it. Or read it.

Just so you see I'm not bullshitting you with words alone - let's look at some film.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc1om_prJh8

First one I found of his college games, since his "highlights" searches on Youtube now mostly belong to his Spurs stint. You watch that film, then watch the film of our loss against the Thunder last game, then come back and tell me he's always played this way. This was before his "anomalous" rookie season, of course. Check that clutch layup, driving into traffic, at 3:20. NO OVERPASSING TENDENCIES whatsoever, you know he was going for that basket even if all 5 defenders were on the paint against him - and he's got the tools to make it work! He's always got them. He NEVER had those tendencies in college. My point is that something happened between then - and now. And it might not be just on Lonnie. That's all I'm saying.

But to say he plays the same now as he did when that "weaknesses" report was written? Yeah, bullshit, I'm not falling for that.

Yes, I'm in that camp. I believe you and your assessment of him since you did your homework and I haven't. The words by those scouting reports were as if they were said by a fortune teller (since they match word for word what Spurs fans complain about), which led me to believe their words in an instant, I will admit.

It is frustrating that there's not much to go by as far as college content for Lonnie so I could get back with you with an informed analysis.

I did find this one game:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-cYN73rU3s

I'll go watch it. It's only one game, so it won't be enough so I'll see if I can find more and revert back to you.

[Sugus]

Yes, I'm in that camp. I believe you and your assessment of him since you did your homework and I haven't. The words by those scouting reports were as if they were said by a fortune teller (since they match word for word what Spurs fans complain about), which led me to believe their words in an instant, I will admit.

It is frustrating that there's not much to go by as far as college content for Lonnie so I could get back with you with an informed analysis.

I did find this one game:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-cYN73rU3s

I'll go watch it. It's only one game, so it won't be enough so I'll see if I can find more and revert back to you.

No offense taken, D, I might sound harsh, but only because I share your distaste of misinformation (and Lonnie specifically is a topic of interest to me, because I've been following him enough to know that 90% of what gets spewed out here about him is BS). Thanks for linking another game! They're really hard to find now (I didn't find any games that had his condensed, good and bad, plays, the "better" but painstaking way, as you linked, would be to look up which games he played for Miami, then just watch the full game if they were uploaded to YT.... But I don't really have the time or will for that).

To be honest, I'm mostly talking about his overpassing tendencies. I can freely say he's always had trouble with keeping engaged when he didn't have the ball (similar to Luka in this regard), which hasn't changed a lot; but I can say I NEVER saw him play like he does now, driving to the rim without purpose or will to shoot, making bad passes at the last second, and even refusing to take shots when passed at the 3pt line, instead going pumpfake -> dribble -> pass out again. That was NOT how he played - in fact, most people had the opposite opinion of his game pre-draft, that he was taking all the shots to himself! Ironic.

That's why I say it's not all on Lonnie. He hasn't progressed in some of his weaknesses, sure - but he's incorporated new holes into his game, which weren't there before, and that's frankly worrisome. I have a far worse expectation of his future as a prospect now, than I did before the start of this season, and it's been a marked difference to me.

[Sugus]

This is a really interesting discussion with good points on either side. Sugus, you said you've followed Lonnie since college. How was he as a collegiate defender? (I have no idea). Because, truthfully, while we have seen flashes of Lonnie's potential on offense as a pro, and I want to give him sometime (he's ony 22), my greater worry is I haven't seen anything from him in terms of consistent defense. So, unless his offense just explodes, it'll be tough to keep him on the court with his poor defensive efforts. (That's just my eye test percerption, I have no idea if the stats confirm this.)

Lonnie seems like a great guy and he's got great athleticism and at least good offensive skills. Much like I said with Luka, if the "light goes on" for him, he'll be something special. But if he's going to get an extension (and not buried behind Devin) he needs to hurry.

Hey Bill! Nice work on the signature as always, my guy. Also, lol at me turning this into a Lonnie thread. Sorry, y'all, I'm just a passionate guy :lol

Lonnie wasn't really a good defender in college, from what I recall, tbh. At the start of the video I posted, he had a steal that's characteristic of how he played defense - he leveraged his quickness, high energy and athleticism into steals and deflections, but he lacked the high-IQ defense that someone like Vassell has, of anticipating offenses and reading passing lanes. That's always been a hole in his game on both sides, and it's still there. The difference, and an obvious one for many prospects, was that he was much better able to keep up with college players due to his natural gifts, whereas speedy NBA guards and bullish wings and bigmen give him much more trouble now.

Ultimately though, it's always been a confidence thing for him - which is why I'm so sad at the approach Pop took towards developing him. It's NOT a coincidence that he played some of his best defense (alongside, by far, his best offense) in that Rockets game, not only keeping up with Harden but also getting deflections/steals that e turned into dunks on the other end. When he feels like he belongs, it's game over - the Spurs just aren't fostering that in him. Or aren't succeeding in doing so. It's also no coincidence that he dropped almost 50 points with DeRozan out. I was expecting our last game to be more of the same, but sadly he was disappointing. And yeah, if he doesn't find consistency, I can totally see the coaching staff not being able to justify starting him with his subpar defense and inconsistent offense. At this point, it's pretty clear that White or Vassell are both much better contributors at starting SG.

I'm keeping up the hopes until next off-season. Posters here already want to trade him, but PATFO is all about patience and the long-run, so I doubt they even think about it before they truly see what third year Lonnie can bring. Get him a full, healthy off-season of work, time to watch film and work on his game, and then see how he plays. If he picks it up, he's easily retained (though I think he'd be an RFA if they don't extend him before the start of the season, someone correct me on this...). If not, I actually see him traded by next deadline. Spurs might want to get some ROI on the draft pick, and at least try and get a middle-first round pick out of him.

[RC_Drunkford]

I think if he will put it all together, it will be next season. 4th NBA season is usually were you see the big leaps. A lot of his issues are easily fixable, like finishing through contact, creating space for midrange pull ups and better positioning on defense. I think he's just overthinking it out there and that's a thing that Popovich has been guilty of a lot of times. Even Aldridge was overthinking stuff out there when he first got here

[Dejounte]

No offense taken, D, I might sound harsh, but only because I share your distaste of misinformation (and Lonnie specifically is a topic of interest to me, because I've been following him enough to know that 90% of what gets spewed out here about him is BS). Thanks for linking another game! They're really hard to find now (I didn't find any games that had his condensed, good and bad, plays, the "better" but painstaking way, as you linked, would be to look up which games he played for Miami, then just watch the full game if they were uploaded to YT.... But I don't really have the time or will for that).

To be honest, I'm mostly talking about his overpassing tendencies. I can freely say he's always had trouble with keeping engaged when he didn't have the ball (similar to Luka in this regard), which hasn't changed a lot; but I can say I NEVER saw him play like he does now, driving to the rim without purpose or will to shoot, making bad passes at the last second, and even refusing to take shots when passed at the 3pt line, instead going pumpfake -> dribble -> pass out again. That was NOT how he played - in fact, most people had the opposite opinion of his game pre-draft, that he was taking all the shots to himself! Ironic.

That's why I say it's not all on Lonnie. He hasn't progressed in some of his weaknesses, sure - but he's incorporated new holes into his game, which weren't there before, and that's frankly worrisome. I have a far worse expectation of his future as a prospect now, than I did before the start of this season, and it's been a marked difference to me.

We're cut from the same cloth... I share your distaste of misinformation as well.

I self-taught myself how to edit youtube videos, finally. No more of those janky gifs I posted before.

I went through through the entire game of the video I shared with you earlier and edited that video to show ALL possessions by Lonnie on offense where he touches the ball at any time.

Here is the result:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzTw2W__6Hs

I see a lot of frustrating dribble hand-offs, similar to what we see today. However like I said earlier, this is only one game. I will do my part to continue my research of Lonnie.

[spurs10]

Nice work here Dejounte. Is he playing tonight?

[JuneJive]

He needs love and care more than the rest of the team.

Pop knows it. Patience is key in his case.

[Dejounte]

Nice work here Dejounte. Is he playing tonight?

Yes, he's playing

Here's another video showing every possession where Lonnie touches the ball, Sugus .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8-fbFKpOi0

He was benched for a significantly long time in the first half. Maybe it was because he was playing passive? I don't know the story.

Slightly more activity attacking the basket, still does the dribble hand off a lot, still looks like he prefers to dribble two steps inside the perimeter then dribble out or pull-up midrange J.

Let me find more.

[D-Robinson 50 fan]

I still don't buy that "Pop fucked up his confidence".

He gave him a starting position. He's given him a green light to shoot or create. He puts him in rotations where Walker SHOULD be the most aggressive person on the floor...and instead he just fades into the background any time he hits a tiny bit of resistance.

At a certain point, it's on Lonnie to look himself in the mirror and decide what kind of player he wants to be. Pop isn't the one making him throw the ball back out to the three-point line when he has a wide open lane to the hoop.

Pop is hard on Walker for defensive mistakes, and rightfully so. But the offense is all in Lonnie's head right now, and that's not all Pop's fault.


In my opinion you’re 100% correct but most folks on here like blaming Pop for a myriad of stuff. Don’t get me wrong he has done a ton of boneheaded things but fucking up Lonnie isn’t one of them.

that write up posted about him coming into the draft is still pretty close to being true to what he is now. SMH.

I’m one of the folks coming into the season who really believed he would be way better and touted him as a guy with star potential. It makes me sad to see he just hasn’t figured stuff out yet.

[rankingtear]

It might absolutely got something to do with it. Lonnie was always touted (and always played with) a scorer's mentality, and I have little doubt that a part of his "development" as a Spurs player was getting him to drop the ball-hoggling, and follow the "extra pass, find the open man" philosophy which Pop loves so much. Is it a bad philosophy to have? NO. I really think it's a great team scheme. But maybe, maybe, you didn't have to over-drill that into his head ("neutering him", as local clown Duncan2k5 calls it) and try to change up his game at the fundamental level.

The best case scenario would've been that he kept his scoring mentality, whilst also learning the nuances of passing out, and leveraging his athleticism into open shots for his teammates. To an extent, I can still see that happening - if it all "clicks together". But it's looking more and more likely that we now have neither: We're getting a Lonnie who's too afraid to call his own number, too preoccupied with making "the right play", and in over-trying to do so, fails at both scoring for himself, and creating for his teammates.

Worst case scenario, for sure, if he doesn't change his ways.

Another thing to point out is when he is forced to go left or finish with his left hand he tends to go for the pass. He almost did it this game and the most glaring one in the OKC game. Going to his left is a weakness you might have evaluated as losing the scorer's mentality.

[Sugus]

We're cut from the same cloth... I share your distaste of misinformation as well.

I self-taught myself how to edit youtube videos, finally. No more of those janky gifs I posted before.

I went through through the entire game of the video I shared with you earlier and edited that video to show ALL possessions by Lonnie on offense where he touches the ball at any time.

Here is the result:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzTw2W__6Hs

I see a lot of frustrating dribble hand-offs, similar to what we see today. However like I said earlier, this is only one game. I will do my part to continue my research of Lonnie.

Yo, D, amazing work! How long did this take you? I really appreciate the time taken - and at the same time, I feel kind of sorry imagining you, tiresomely editing the video just to make the point. You don't have to do this, I'll look for some full game myself, don'tcha worry.

My main takeaway from this video is that Lonnie hasn't improved in some aspects since his college days (as you say, passing the ball off when bringing it up, then disappearing the entire possession, sinking into the weakside; or just not taking it upon himself to initiate offense or break his defender off the dribble). But also that, just as I'd thought, I didn't see once the move that has now become my pet-peeve out of Modern Lonnie (hereby ML, as opposed to Old Lonnie), that is, the drive -> jump -> then try to make a pass, or even drive -> get by your defender -> try to pass it out. Those are the moves I'm thinking of when I say "new holes" in ML's game, and watching his college games again just furthers that point.

After thinking on it a little - could these moves be one of your "DeMar teaching the youngings" moves, only it's backfiring? I realized that the only other player who makes that drive&dish move consistently, is DeRozan, only he has the MUCH better passing, court awareness, and quick-thinking skills and makes like 90% of those high-risk passes without issue. It looks like Lonnie's taken it upon himself to be a DD-lite kinda player, and it's not working well at all. Or something like that...

Anyways, thanks again for taking the effort, I appreciate it.