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Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 10:42 AM
Run.

That might be the Spurs only hope.

The Spurs will have to take advantage of their superior speed. Duncan, Parker and Rose are all faster than Malone, Payton and Shaq. Jackson can keep up with Kobe.

I think if the Spurs do their usual plodding half-court game, that will play into the older Lakers' hands.

We have to take the transition game to the next level this season and somehow find a way to run in the playoffs, too.

Concordantly, no one in the NBA is better at conducting afast breaking team than — you guessed it — Jason Kidd.

Maybe we just need to get Kidd and let the pieces fall where they may.

The Spurs will have to use their youth, athleticism and speed to overcome the veteran starpower of the Lakers.

Thoughts?

:cooldevil

MI21
07-09-2003, 10:49 AM
Your Idea's are spot on.

Lakers are going to be severly lacking in transition D, but there half court D is going to be pretty damn good, plus Kobe will be more effective defensively than ever because he can rest even more on the offensive end, because of the support offensively he will have with not only Shaq, but Gary and Karl.

Getting rough with them may help, some hard contact games against the old blokes cant help ther health and bodies.

The key is they will still have to double Duncan often, so it will be the familiar story of our perimeter players performing in all aspects of the game that can kill LA. But there only real glaring Weakness seems to be there Transition Defense, and perhaps there 3point shooting.

Pretty daunting task to beat them this season if they get both players.

Jimcs50
07-09-2003, 10:51 AM
Ghost, you do not run in the playoffs with any longterm success. NJ, Dallas and Sacto will bear witness to that fact.

picnroll
07-09-2003, 11:05 AM
Transition will be some help but the Lakers aren't going to be that slow with Payton, Kobe, and George. Their good abllhandlers so we won't get that many turnovers. They'll keep balance, they're good rebounders, and they won't need to sell out on offensive rebounding so the perimeter guys can keep balance and get back, just like the Spurs do.

Our best chance is to get Kidd and Mourning/Brown and hope Jax, MAnu and TP have growth spurts. If we don't get Kidd I'm for going for Maggette/Odom/Arenas and laying in wait.

I wonder if this becomes a pattern where vet stars start selling out to the Lakers every year creating a non-competitive environment how healthy this is going to be for the league?

Whottt
07-09-2003, 11:10 AM
Geez Tony Parker being the fastest PG in the NBA and a guy that Rudy T called a one man fast break wouldn't help our running game at all would it. It's not like Tony ever has to pull up and wait for his teamates to arrive. :majorfuckinrolleyes

adidas11
07-09-2003, 11:13 AM
Yep, as if running a fast break happens consistently in the playoffs. :rolleyes

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 11:20 AM
Jimmy and adidas, you are preaching to the choir about half court ruling in the playoffs. That's why I said the Spurs have to find a way to run next season and in the playoffs. Read.

If it comes down to the typical half court sets, then we have to hope that our faster guys can take the Lakers slower vets off the dribble and to the rack.


Speed kills.



:cooldevil

scott
07-09-2003, 11:25 AM
The problem is that the halfcourt team will find a way to slow the game down to a level they are comfortable with- much like we did against Dallas and New Jersey.

How do we "find a way" to run. This isn't NBA Live 2003, and the Dream Team Lakers aren't going to just let us use our newfound way of running.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 11:33 AM
I just told you, scott. Pay attention.

If we can't run fast breaks all the time, then we have to use the speed advantage in the half court to get to the rack or draw fouls as we blow by the slower Lakers' defenders.

Also, the Spurs were able to slow it down to the halfcourt game because we used our speed to get back in transition and force the Mavs and Nets to slow it up and go into half court sets.

I can't see the Lakers keeping up with us to grind a fastbreak to a halt like that.

Quit it with all the doom-and-gloom. I'm looking at solutions today.



:cooldevil

Archie
07-09-2003, 11:46 AM
Spurs can create motion in the halfcourt. The biggest problem in year's past has been that the Spurs were excruciatingly predictable. That changed somewhat this year yet the problem was still there. So much so that great defensive teams like the Suns and Mavs were able to stymie the Spurs at times. Kidd would change that. I would expect to see more movement from Timmy. He proved to be devastating in the Finals from the high post. set him up there and run screen rolls all day.

You guys act like Kidd hasn't run a half court offense before

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 11:49 AM
That's right, Arch.

People also forget that the Spurs were quick enought o get back on defense to disrupt the Mavs and Nets' fastbreaks.

Are the Lakers qucik enough now to do that?

I don't think so.


Can Malone keep Duncan from scoring off the dribble?

I don't think so.

:cooldevil

Whottt
07-09-2003, 11:50 AM
Sigh

If you guys want our half court improved Kidd should have never even been discussed...Payton all the way.

Im lieu of that get shooters that can score off the pick N roll or when plays are run for them.. and when Duncan is being double teamed.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 12:05 PM
Whott, Payton is going to the Lakers.

We have "shooters" who can penetrate and score.

Kidd is a master of the pick-and-roll.



Will someone with substance please talk to me?




Question.



:cooldevil

scott
07-09-2003, 12:11 PM
Substance like "Bruce Bowen's defense on Kobe is overrated."?

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 12:15 PM
scott, stop being a little hanger-on b1tch. I am pissing all over your overrating of Bowen in the other thread, just as I squashed your "Work a sign & trade for Brand with Sterling in one afternoon" bullsh1t yesterday in another.



Do you have any p1ssing and moaning related to the Spurs needing to use their speed against the Lakers next year?

If not, then stick to topic or STFU.


:cooldevil

scott
07-09-2003, 12:23 PM
You squashed nothing. Sterling isn't interested in a sign & trade, and we all found that out in one afternoon- which exactly what I suggested they do.

And you sure did piss over me by telling us all that having Kidd trumps Kobe scoring 40. Yippee!

Like our friend MadeFromDust, you are a star only in your own mind.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 12:25 PM
Kidd is not the master of the PickNRoll where do you get that shit from?

I'd rather have Stockton or Payton over Kidd doing that. It helps to have some one who can hit the side of a barn running it.

And our outside shooting is shaky, it has potential but you can never have enough outside shooting on a team with Tim Duncan.

Back to your running idea..I can't beging to grasp how you wouldn't think Parker would be a total asset to our running game...the guy can beat anyone down the floor to get a pass. Not that I think Manu and Duncan couldn't make those passes as well as Kidd anyway..but since you are discussing it. Me personally I stick with the good old half court O. Get Stockton..he knows how to run fucking PickNRoll and he wasn't the reason the Jazz choked against the Bulls.

adidas11
07-09-2003, 12:25 PM
Finding a game plan and approach that is opposite to what the Lakers will put into effect is paramount in beating them. The Spurs should try to continue to expound on what advantages they have. Speed. Although I think this advantage is a little overrated, it is still something the Spurs must try to integrate moreso in their offense and defense.

Add a PJ Brown, and a Lamar Odom, and the Spurs will be very solid next year. PJ can provide the rebounding that is essential to a running game, and Lamar can play both the half court, and open court game. Plus, Lamar's length can be deadly in terms of defending, and breaking down a tough half court defense. You don't lose your speed advantage by picking up these two players.

scott
07-09-2003, 12:27 PM
Whottt, to Kidd's credit, he creates more fast break opportunities with his permimeter rebounding and unprecidented ability to quickly kick the ball out and get it up court. Tony Parker can't match him in these areas, which are far more deadly than Kidd's ability to run up the court himself.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 12:32 PM
Right and you don't think Parker would be a good guy to be kicking it out to with his speed and teardrop finisher?

Get real. There'd be no better finisher in the NBA.

And as it pertains to beating LA..Who in the hell is gonna catch Parker on their team even if they are getting back? Not even Kobe..

Kidd runs the transition even without those rebounds, he is always looking for the guy down the court, that's the only thing about his game that I like. And his steals serve him well too...He doesn't play man to man defense..he sits there and watches the ball, plays all the passing lanes and goes for steals..he hardly bodies his guy..he usually just sits there and watches them run by him and tries to pick it. That's why he gets fucking torched(along with the fact that he has lost a few steps).

scott
07-09-2003, 12:41 PM
Whottt, Parker would be a great recipient from a Kidd kick out.

But you are talking about a Kidd + Parker backcourt in this case, something I'm not willing to put up with for a year. Parker is a lesser 2 guard than Jackson or Manu.

Don't get all fussy with me- I don't want Kidd. But I was addressing your questions about Kidd's fastbreak abilities. Parker's value in the fast break isn't questioned, but if we get Kidd, we mostly likely have to move Parker.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 12:50 PM
Kidd > Parker

kidd ran the pick-and-roll with both Martin and Jerfferson all last season.

Parker should be here if Kidd comes, that's why I didn't address him.


P.S.


"You squashed nothing. Sterling isn't interested in a sign & trade, and we all found that out in one afternoon- which exactly what I suggested they do." — scott
:lol

There was no inquiry made about a S&T.

Then you started fussing about Kidd immediately signing with the Nets if the Spurs made a pitch outright to Brand, which was determined to be equally as ludicrous.

You have a knack of responding negatively to my takes, yet getting slammed when I take you to task.

Can Bowen guard Shaq next year?

:cooldevil

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:01 PM
You don't just move Parker for nothing just because you have Kidd. That's insane..

You damn sure don't move him for a scrub like Rasho when you can just go out and sign Brad Miller.

Why do the Spurs always ejoy getting assraped in trades? I am gonna go postal if they trade Parker for fucking scrub. I am gonna go postal.

And I agree, I don't like a Parker Kidd backcourt either, especially in a half court set, but if you want to run it's silly to think Parker is the weak link there.


That's a ridiculous thought. Seriously it is.

scott
07-09-2003, 01:03 PM
Yah Ghost... you really showed me about Kidd signing with NJ if we were to offer Brand a deal.

Just look at all the people advocating offering Brand a deal and waiting 15 days to see what happens.

Archie
07-09-2003, 01:04 PM
Yeah, you don't just run off your talent because you can. Another key part of staying on top is making smart moves with the talent you have.

Saying that Parker is a "luxury" and can be dropped for any run of the mill bigman is foolish.

scott
07-09-2003, 01:07 PM
I agree, you don't get rid of Parker for the sake of getting rid of him.

But even if we keep Parker- we are still in the position of having to field the best team.

That best team probably doesn't include Parker getting significant minutes at the 2- since both Jackson and Manu are better 2 guards than Parker.

Either Parker is traded (in a good trade) or he is on the bench, limiting his chances to be on the scoring end of a Kidd instigated fast break.

Archie
07-09-2003, 01:11 PM
They'll have $3.8 mil in cap room to work with that's not exactly chump change. Depending on how long they are prepared to commit to a free agent big they could still be in the game for their services.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:13 PM
Scott, you need to rewatch the finals and witness Kidd sucking wind in the 4th after chasing Parker around all night.


For the purposes of this argument discussing the merits of running on LA...

Parker is the guy that's gonna run Payton's legs off not Kidd. Parker ran Kidd's legs off.

And Kidd doesn't want to go 40, part of the reason he is coming here is to lighten his work load.

We can get a scrub like Rasho without giving up Parker..and for the purposes of being a running team, Parker, Kidd, and Manu gives us the ability to run for 48 minutes per game. I don't think running is the way to go, but if you do go with it..Parker isn't gonna hurt your running game, he may be Kidd's biggest asset.

Archie
07-09-2003, 01:15 PM
Oh come on Whottt it's not like Duncan always took on the toughest defensive assignment for the entire game.

Another thing you seem to forget is that NJ didn't have a decent backup for Kidd so he had to play extended minutes with little rest. TP did have an excellent backup.

Drop your Kidd hate. It's stupid and pointless now.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:20 PM
I am not hating on Kidd at this particular time..I am saying if you want to run, something I am against on a team with the best post up bigman in the NBA, which is why I hate on Kidd...dumping Parker hurts your cause, especially if you do it for nothing. The only people that think Parker would be a weak link on a running team are here in this forum. No coach is gonna say that.

Surely you guys can see that? And Parker did wear Kidd out, he said chasing Parker around all night is tough to do. It ought to be, Kidd is 30 years old Parker is 21 and lightning quick. It's not hate..Kidd himself admitted it, and then Kittles was given the chore of chasing Tony around.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 01:23 PM
Guys, Parker has no place here anymore if Kidd comes. We need a center. We have only $3.8 million to do that. Connect the dots.

:cooldevil

scott
07-09-2003, 01:23 PM
Whottt- who is saying that Parker would be the weak link on a running team?

I don't think you are arguing with anyone...

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:28 PM
Ghost is..Ghost is saying let's run, oh and let's trade the fastest player in the NBA for Rasho.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 01:29 PM
scott, just let Whott argue with himself. Like an ant trying to crawl out of a glass of water, he'll evntually tire himself out and quit.



I'm not saying to dump Parker for crap, but I would like to capitalize on his value and get some money in return so we can address the hole at center.

Parker is too good to backup Kidd and not good enough to play an effective off-guard.


:cooldevil

KoriEllis
07-09-2003, 01:34 PM
I know that a lot of people are assuming that TP is on the block (or should be) if the Spurs acquire Kidd. But the Spurs serious plan is to have a Kidd/Parker backcourt. Will it work? Who knows. But that's their intention.

A Spurs roster of:

Brown, Malone, Zo?
Duncan
Bowen
Tony
Kidd

Malik
Willis
Jack
Manu
Donny Marshall :)

Will be able to run as well as play in the half-court set. Having a team that will have a good transition game but can also set up will be the key to victory.

travis2
07-09-2003, 01:37 PM
Unfortunately, his value is only about $750K or thereabouts. Which will only buy crap.

SouthernDan
07-09-2003, 01:43 PM
Jesus christ, this conversation went way off track. How do we beat the lakers? Defense.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 01:46 PM
Ghost you have suggested trading Parker for everyone from Kwame Brown to some dogshit out in front of the SBC..

I point out why Parker would be a benefit to a running team, why Parker, not Kidd is the guy who could wear Payton down by running and you guys call me a hater...

Well here you go, straight from the horses mouth:


Byron Scott:


Q: You made a lot of adjustments tonight, putting Kerry on Tony Parker for a while, playing with Kidd's minutes, what was your thinking, and how do you feel they worked?
Scott: I thought Kerry did a wonderful job. I think the thing that it allows us to do is J-Kidd doesn't have to chase it around all over the place so he doesn't expend a lot of energy on the defensive end doing that, trying to guard Tony.


Jason "God" Kidd himself:


Q: David Robinson has criticized Tony Parker for taking some ill-advised shots. Did you play him any differently than previously, No. 1, and No. 2, when they pulled him and you're leading by 15, did you guys relax a little bit?
Kidd: Well, I did play him a little bit different; I was over on the sideline. I was guarding Ginobili or Bowen, so I guarded him a little bit differently in that sense. (Laughter).




Q: That was at the end, wasn't it?
Kidd: That was during the whole game. That allowed me to play 47 minutes tonight. To chase Tony around, it wears on you offensively and defensively. So we made a little adjustment in that sense to give me a chance to play off the ball.

Yeah trade a guy like that for Rasho when you want to run.

I gladly wear the idiot label if it means disagreeing with that Parker is garbage sentiment.

Too bad Tony has no future and is washed up, remember how great he was at the age 19? Ahh sweet youth, how it goes so fast.

Dipshits.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 01:57 PM
Fine, Whott. Enjoy Malik Rose as your 6'7, jumpshot-bricking starting center and 97 year-old Kevni Willis as your primary big man off the bench.

Congrats.



:cooldevil

KoriEllis
07-09-2003, 02:02 PM
Ghost, the Spurs aren't looking at getting Kidd and not acquiring a center. And getting a center does not necessarily mean they have to trade someone. PJ Brown was here yesterday and things went extremely well. He even looked at real estate, etc. Also, another center is coming to visit this weekend. There are a lot of negotiations going on.

Though trading may be an option, it's not the only option.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 02:04 PM
Careful, if you start bagging on Malik you are gonna piss the baselinebum off..

You want a center? Get Oberto, and you don't have to give up Tony to do it.

ChumpDumper
07-09-2003, 02:04 PM
Keep in mind we still might be able to swing a Claxton S&T for a rookie-contract big.

GrandeDavid
07-09-2003, 02:17 PM
We outscore them.

timvp
07-09-2003, 02:21 PM
You don't trade Parker unless you are getting a very good player back. On the open market right now, he'd demand $8-9M.



No crack-induced trades like Parker for Malone.



:vomit :vomit :vomit

Whottt
07-09-2003, 02:24 PM
Finally a voice of reason. If you can't have size, the next best attribute to have in this league is speed, and when it's coupled with a killer teardrop like Parkers...you dont just give it away. Tony at the very least is worth a top lottery draft pick.

If our championship hopes hinge getting a scrub like Rasho to have a chance to beat the Lakers...then we aint winning a championship this year.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 02:31 PM
timvp, you really think that Parker is worth $8-9 million?

Wow.


:cooldevil

timvp
07-09-2003, 02:33 PM
How much do you think he'd get in this market?

He has more potential than Arenas and AMiller and they are going to cash in.


Remember, he's 21.

People laughed when Orlando gave TMac a MAX contract.


Who is laughing now?









Question.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 02:34 PM
Ghost...players who are unguardable by the best PG in the NBA are generally viewed as an asset to a team.

The only people that view him as a liability are the fans of the team he just won a title with.


Are you gonna answer my question about Oberto?

adidas11
07-09-2003, 02:35 PM
That is when he becomes a FA. As of right now, Parker's contract is in the 800 thousand dollar range.

In a trade, salaries must match, to within 15% of each other.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 02:38 PM
True dat, timvp. If only we could find a way to package Parker up to get an equitable valued big man in return.

Parker backing up isn't right and him starting at SG isn't desirable either.

I just don't wnat people getting into this mode where good but not star players like Parker and Bowen are deemed untouchable. We have to do everything in our power to tightne up our lineup in light of the Lakers' moves.

:cooldevil

timvp
07-09-2003, 02:39 PM
That is when he becomes a FA. As of right now, Parker's contract is in the 800 thousand dollar range.

In a trade, salaries must match, to within 15% of each other.

Not when you have cap room.







Apology Accepted.

timvp
07-09-2003, 02:41 PM
good but not star players like Parker and Bowen

By age 21, what more could Parker have done to prove he has star potential?



Question.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 02:43 PM
There's that 'P' word again.

Potential.

Parker is still not a star in my book.

Stars don't get benched two games in a row in favor of Speedy Claxton when it matters most.


:cooldevil

adidas11
07-09-2003, 02:50 PM
To prove he has star potential, he could become the focal point of team on both ends of the court, and lead his team to the playoffs.

Parker is a solid point guard. He is not a superstar.

And thank you for correcting me on the salary situation earlier, TimVP. :)

Archie
07-09-2003, 02:51 PM
Ghost I don't think that Parker should be so easily dismissed as you do. Anyways, let's focus on the primary discussion at hand.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 02:51 PM
He didn't get benched 2 games in a row. He lit up the Nets in game 5 with Kittles on him and hung 10-12 points on the Nets in the 3rd quarter when we increased our lead from 3 points to 15.

He sucked in game 6 because they keyed on him, if you rewatch the game you will see the Nets running 3 defenders at him at times..and they forced him to turn it over.

Claxton on the other hand had Kidd leaving him wide open. Claxton didn't have a defender within 3 feet of him in the second half and he was turning it over too.

The difference between Parker and Jax that game was that Pop stayed with Jax..they were both sucking for most of the game.

I can't believe you want to trade Parker for a guy like Kwame Brown who cries like a bitch because MJ is mad at him...


While Parker was kicking Kidd's ass off the court..and oh yeah Kidd just happens to be the guy coming to take his job..not to mention the NY media grilling him, in the NBA finals...he's got DROB of all people calling him out, he's got Pop assreaming him after every play, he's got Manu and Jax bitching at him for following Pop's directions and not give them the ball instead of Duncan, and he's the second youngest player in NBA finals history.

Parker has balls. Brown doesn't. If you want to trade a talent for one bad game...why aren't you on Duncan's ass? He cost us game 1 against Phoenix when he choked those FT's.

You don't just give up on a guy for one bad game. You especially don't do it when the guy is 20 years old.

Archie
07-09-2003, 02:53 PM
DAMMIT WHOTTT STFU ALREADY YOU ARE ADDING NOTHING TO THE DISCUSSION NOW.

Thank you.

adidas11
07-09-2003, 02:58 PM
Hmmm...John Paxson lit up the Lakers in NBA Finals 1991. Did he ever make an all star team at any point in his career?

Whottt
07-09-2003, 03:02 PM
The truth hurts doesn't it. Kidd got smoked by Parker and he even admitted it.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 03:04 PM
Whott, Parker was relived in Games 5 & 6 by Claxton. He is not a superstar yet. He’s the second best player on the Spurs by default and one our only tradeable commodities. He will be a non-essential should Kidd come here.


Next.


:cooldevil

Whottt
07-09-2003, 03:05 PM
That's fucking funny Adidas I don't remember any quotes from Lakers saying they couldn't guard John Paxon.

ChumpDumper
07-09-2003, 03:09 PM
I hope Rasho is a superstar or at least has potential if we're to trade Bowen and Parker for him.

Works both ways.

Chad Ford = Sam Smith

timvp
07-09-2003, 03:12 PM
Most of your favorite players today were finishing up summer school at 21. Not winning championships.




P.S.

GW, you didn't answer the






Question.

adidas11
07-09-2003, 03:18 PM
Just because a player is a key compenent of a championship winning team, doesn't mean he has superstar potential.

NEXT.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 03:20 PM
Um, play well enough to stick around at the end of Games 5 & 6 versus Kidd and the Nets.



Answer.

:cooldevil

Archie
07-09-2003, 03:22 PM
Bowen is a key component to the Spurs...you don't just run him off for crap.

Nikos
07-09-2003, 03:38 PM
If Kidd comes here I think Parker's role is reduced. PERIOD. Bring up past double headed PG experiments like Frazier/Monroe, Cassell/Payton etc.... but that does not mean Kidd and Parker is really going to work.

Parker is a fine player, is more of a scoring PG/2G but I don't think he would be real successful playing the 2G consistently. I rather save that spot for Manu or Sjax depeding on what Pop does at the 2-3 spots or if he starts Manu and Jax at the same time.

But with that said I think Parker's role becomes smaller and it will hinder his growth slightly if Kidd comes than if he did not.

But I have to agree with Ghost -- sure Parker has potential -- but if Kidd comes than Parker will not be the same to our team and won't improve like he would if Kidd did not come to SA.

Parker has potential sure -- but so does Gilbert Arenas. Not that I think Arenas is any better right now -- but Arenas is also very young 22. Does that mean he will automatically be a Top 5 PG for years to come with Tony Parker because they are doing well at a young age? Not neccesarily.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 03:43 PM
What other 21 year old PG's in the NBA have Parker's talent? I don't see many. I'd say he is the best PG taken in the last 3 drafts.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 03:46 PM
Okay, Archie. It seems like you think everyone including Bateer is a key component to the Spurs. I'm not saying you run anyone out of here for crap. But you don't load up on certain positions when you have a gaping hole at another one, either, champ.


:cooldevil


P.S.

Whott, the day Kidd signs on the bottom line, you be on his dillsnick just like your on Parker's so STFU already.

Archie
07-09-2003, 03:57 PM
WTF?

This is not hard to understand. You don't just run players off just because you can. If you can get the same level of talent without shipping out a Bowen, you do that. No matter what you seem to think Bowen is the best on ball perimeter defender in the NBA.

The Spurs wouldn't be capped out after they signed Kidd. With a $42.5 mil cap they would have $3.8 mil in cap room. That's something significant to work with. If you disagree with my numbers let's see yours.

F'in A.

Nikos
07-09-2003, 04:04 PM
Normally I would say don't get Kidd and KEEP Parker at the same time.

But since Jermaine O'Neal ain't coming the Spurs really do not have much other choice. Kidd and Zo may be the way to go if Mourning is healthy.

I like Parker -- has great poise and a lot of talent and could one day be a top 5 PG. But right now he isn't. His vision is not even close to Kidds, his defense is weaker, his rebounding is weaker etc.....Sure Parker is faster but what good is that if he is going to be inconsistent and not run the team like a PG like Kidd could?

Normally I wouldn't want the Spurs to give away Parker -- I liked O Neal or Brand as an idea to play along Duncan. But its looking like that won't happen.

With that said, if the Spurs get Kidd, then Parker is not going to be the same player. He isn't really going to grow like he should. It won't be the same Tony Parker. Maybe he will show some flashes of brilliance with Kidd -- but we do we have Manu and Sjax -- whos games could also double with a guy like Kidd dishing them the rock. Plus the fact that Manu and Sjax are going to improve anyway. I like Parker, but getting Kidd reduces his game for this team. If the Spurs don't mind doing that, then so be it. But I would not hinder Manu and Jax growth just to experiment with TP at the 2G.

Thus, Kidd and Zo may be the best way to go.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 04:04 PM
:sleep

No sh1t, Archie. Now get one of those marginal big men here for $3 million and we won't have to worry about a sign-and-trade of Bowen and Parker to NJ.


:cooldevil

Whottt
07-09-2003, 04:04 PM
Ghost is freaking because he wanted to see Payton play for SA, much like myself I might add. He sees the writing on the wall.

Payton playing for the Lakers scares the hell out of him and it should. That's not just slapping superstars together like SA is trying to do..that's hitting a grandslam homerun with getting the absolute perfect piece for a Laker Title.

Don't fight it Ghost..sometimes you just have to take your beating like a man.

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:06 PM
Come on you fucker show me how it's $3 mil instead of $3.8 million. Dammit I must have missed your cap calcs. Bring it or stop trying to sing it. I didn't realize that PJ Brown was a marginal big. In case you didn't notice he was in town a couple of days ago and had a good visit.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 04:11 PM
I thought 'marginal' was your word.

Sorry I left off the 0.8 million.

$3.8 million.

There. That should be more than enough to attract Brown or Nesterovic or Mourning.





:cooldevil

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:28 PM
We'll see once you take your foot out of your mouth.

timvp
07-09-2003, 04:32 PM
Kidd wants to play with Mourning next season.

The Spurs might be able to get that done.

:hat2

KoriEllis
07-09-2003, 04:33 PM
That should be more than enough to attract Brown or Nesterovic or Mourning.

That very well may be enough for Brown or Mourning. Not Nesterovic. But WGAF.

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:35 PM
Oh no the Spurs might be able to add Kidd & PJ Brown or Kidd & Mourning. Dammit that's not good enough! Give me Kandi!

I hate Spurs fans so much sometimes.

Man in Black1
07-09-2003, 04:44 PM
:brotha

The day any of you lilliputians know more about hoops(especially Whott) that Pop is the day you get paid as a consultant to a NBA team.

Small thinkers....Fuckin A' its not that hard to visualize. Parker can work at the 2. Its not like he'll have to continue being the primary ball-handler, the spacing will be fine and on many sets, he will bring the ball up. He'll get the same amount of minutes he gets now. Just split between 1 & 2. Lets not even call them Points, lets call them Lead Guards because thats what they are and as such, it forces a defense to choose their poison accordingly. You stop Kidd's vision, you have to deal with TP's speed. You stop TP's speed, you have to deal with Kidd's vision. Couple that with Manu's all-around skills, an improved SJax-less turnovers and a deadly jumper plus finishing skills, a Bruce's on-ball D. At Center you get Zo or PJ. People say can that stop Shaq? The Spurs D has never been about stopping him, its always been about just commiting a single resource on him thus preventing him from employing the other guys on the team. Spurs need to bring in a Rookie FA or young FA that wants to BANG. In the limited minutes that this guy gets, he needs to play the most physical defense he can on Shaq. We need a banger to a)piss him off & b)not back away when he is pissed off. One guy comes to mind and he worked out for the Spurs before draft day. I'm saving his name in hopes of seeing it on the Summer League Team. The stifling D will be the same. 4 Superstars, its like the All-stars but a GOOD TEAM will beat a good on-paper team any day of the week. I'd liken it to the Ol' Detroit Piston Bad Boys who physically whipped on the greatness that was the Showtime Lakers.

Let me give you this from a Detroit Piston fans history page.


The Pistons were the league's best team all season. They had a guard-oriented offense featuring Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars, a solid work ethic, and they lived up to their Bad Boys image with tough, physical play. (When Bill Laimbeer missed a game on January 29 to serve a fighting suspension, it interrupted a string of 685 consecutive games played that dated back to 1982.)

The Pistons were led by Thomas, whose angelic smile belied a fiercely competitive nature. He could shoot from the outside or drive to the basket and was always among the league leaders in assists. Backcourtmate Dumars had many of the same offensive skills as Thomas, though he wasn't expected to pass as much, and he was a formidable defender. Laimbeer was a bruising inside player but not a traditional center; his shot from long range became a trademark of the Pistons' offense. In addition, Laimbeer developed his persona as a villain, becoming a player opposing fans loved to hate.

These star-quality players were augmented by a cast of role players and specialists. Aguirre possessed as inventive an offensive repertoire as any NBA player. Vinnie Johnson was capable of torrid shooting streaks. Dennis Rodman, Rick Mahorn, James Edwards, and John Salley each brought different assets to the front line while sharing playing time.

Dumars and Rodman were named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team at season's end, starting a long string of selections for Rodman. Thomas led the club in scoring with 18.2 points per game, but the scoring burden was well distributed-five players averaged more than 13.7 points. Rodman displayed an unerring nose for the ball, led the team in rebounding (9.4 rpg), and, unexpectedly, led the league in shooting percentage (.595), mostly by declining to shoot anything but point-blank layups.

The Pistons fashioned the NBA's best regular-season record at 63-19 and shredded opposing teams in the playoffs. They cruised through the first two rounds of the postseason, eliminating Boston and Milwaukee without suffering a loss. The Chicago Bulls provided a little more resistance before falling in six games in the Eastern Conference Finals.

In a rematch of the previous year's NBA Finals, the Pistons demolished a Lakers team by sweeping the defending champs in four straight games. A new star was born as Dumars averaged 27.3 points in the series and was named Finals MVP. In 17 playoff games Detroit held the opposition to only 92.9 points per game, the stingiest defense of any NBA champion since the advent of the 24-second shot clock in 1954-55.

Isiah Thomas had yearned for recognition, not as one of the NBA's top guards, or top little men, but as one of the game's top players. He had entered the league with Detroit after the Pistons had suffered through a 21-61 campaign. By Thomas' fourth season, the Pistons had a head coach, Chuck Daly, had finally figured out how to maximize his superstar's strengths, so that a team built around a point guard could contend.

They would go on to win back-to-back titles.

So what do we gain from looking at the past. Defense still wins championships and PG's are just as pivotal as bigs.
If the Lakers throw lead guards at us, we throw lead guards back. Add Kerr & Manu and we beat their Fisher, Pargo backup scenario.

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:50 PM
Thank you for that post, MIB. Now if only the inmates will get it.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 05:05 PM
I don't think Pop wants Kidd other than the fact that Duncan wants Kidd.

I think everything done on the Kidd side of things is because Duncan was pushing for it.

I'll never be convinced that if Pop had a choice of Kidd, Brand or O'Neal that he would pick Kidd first.

Let's see, does Pop go with the transition guard who gambles for steals that has a checkered past? Or does Pop go for the beast interior defenders and shotblockers with clean PR slates? Hmmmm.

And Pop is not infallible when it comes to decisions...if he had left Kerr on the bench we are probably still trying to win the title. Luckily for us the media busted his ass about it and he went with it. But as for me and others, we knew Kerr could close those games out.

Oh and most of us knew Danny Ferry was gonna suck ass going up against Nowitzki.

Pop may know more about coaching but there is no way in hell he has sat on his ass second guessing coaching decisions while getting drunk, more than I have. Trust me, I am better at it.

Marcus Bryant
07-09-2003, 05:07 PM
Take your meds, 'Whottt'. Seriously.

DuffMcCartney
07-09-2003, 06:24 PM
How don't we beat the Lakers now is the real question. Running, posting up Malone. The possibilities are endless.

Man in Black1
07-09-2003, 07:03 PM
Leave it to an LA writer to better explain why sometimes you go for the best player even if he "DOESN'T EXACTLY FIT"


Although, I don't agree with his final stance as to who is better, he forgets that Payton was EXCUSED from the playoffs by Kidd, I can tell that he can see the "big picture".




J.A. ADANDE


The Best Man Has One Job: Bring the Ring
J.A. Adande

July 9, 2003

It fits right in with Gary Payton's career that his decision to come to Los Angeles is only the second-biggest story in Lakerland this week.

The organization and the city are in no mood to rejoice, not after the stunning news that Kobe Bryant was arrested in connection with a sexual assault complaint in Colorado.

That's the way it always has been for Payton, who spent his college and pro career behind a curtain of raindrops in the Pacific Northwest. He's the least-acclaimed great player of his time.

So if the circumstances prevent the popping of champagne, the least we can do is break out a pair of words that don't get used often enough to describe Payton.

The best.

As in: the best free agent the Lakers had any realistic chance to acquire this summer.

At this moment, and with their limited financial options, point guard Payton was the top guy. And his agent says Payton will sign with them July 16.


No, he doesn't address their primary need. Luring a power forward such as P.J. Brown or Juwan Howard with the mid-level exception would have been the best move if the Lakers' main priority was finding someone to counter the Tim Duncans, Chris Webbers and Kevin Garnetts of the Western Conference.

But Mitch Kupchak went the aggressive route. Go get the best player and force the rest of the league to counter that.

Think about it in the abstract: Who's the best, Payton, Brown or Howard?

Payton.


I'll go one step further: Who's better between Payton and the other high-profile point guard on the market, Jason Kidd?

Yep. It's Payton again.

(I disagree but then again, he is writing for the hometown paper)

Kidd is a better rebounder and he led the league in assists. But as I watched New Jersey go corpse-cold in the fourth quarter of Game 6 of the NBA Finals — with Kidd and Kenyon Martin taking most of the shots — I thought there was no way Payton would let that happen.
(Yeah like any team that Payton has been in has beaten this version of the Spurs, also funny is that JA talked the same stuff about his team ...SWEEPING THE SPURS)

If my team needed a basket I'd rather give the ball to Payton than Kidd.

Plus, I doubt you'd see Tony Parker run right around Payton the way he did around Kidd in the NBA Finals.

Payton, who was on the NBA's All-Defensive first team for nine consecutive seasons, should shore up the Laker perimeter. That means no more point guards turning into max-contract guys at the Lakers' expense every postseason.


Because Kidd is five years younger than Payton (35 on July 23), Kidd would be the better choice for a long-term contract. But the Lakers can't think long-term anymore. Bryant can opt out of his contract next summer (and that's assuming legal troubles do not take him out of play before that). Shaquille O'Neal's body could break down under all that weight.

Their chance to win another championship is right now. And their chance gets a lot better with the addition of Payton.

He has averaged 18.3 points a game in his NBA career and has been good for at least 20 for most of the last nine years, including 20.4 last season.

When he isn't scoring he can pass with the best of them — and he's never had teammates like Shaq and Kobe to pass to. He averaged 8.8 assists last season with the Seattle SuperSonics — and that's when he was passing to the likes of Rashard Lewis, Vladimir Radmonovic and Brent Barry — and 7.3 after his trade to the Milwaukee Bucks.

But the best he ever finished in the most-valuable-player voting was third in 1998, behind Michael Jordan and Karl Malone.

If he had played in a larger market, or on a team that played into June more often, he would have generated the type of hype that nearly carried Kidd to the MVP award last year.


In a world free of salary-cap constraints, the ideal choice for the Lakers or the Spurs would have been Jermaine O'Neal. Put that athletic 6-11 frame on the same front line with O'Neal or Duncan and there would be zero layups for opponents. And the 24-year-old could fill that position for the rest of Shaq and Duncan's careers.

But the collective bargaining agreement gives an edge to the home team, which means O'Neal can make at least $30 million more by staying with Indiana than he could anywhere else. That's why it should come as no surprise that he canceled trips to San Antonio and Dallas and appears ready to re-sign with the Pacers.

So it appears the Lakers will settle for Karl Malone with their $1.4-million exception. For that money, they did just fine.

The real coup is getting Payton with the mid-level exception (which will be somewhere between $4.6 million and $4.9 million).

It helps that the Lakers are on the West Coast, where Payton spent all of his playing days until he was traded to Milwaukee on Feb. 20. Payton and his wife are from Oakland, he went to college at Oregon State and he spent the first 12 1/2 years of his NBA career in Seattle.

But primarily, this is about Payton's quest to win a ring.

Payton's heart has been here for a long time. He once attended a playoff game at Staples Center wearing a conspicuously shaded yellow T-shirt that he acknowledged was Laker gold. But I never thought he'd be willing to make the financial sacrifice it would take to get here.

He could have made more had he re-signed with Milwaukee. And there were sign-and-trade scenarios — including a late run by Indiana — that could have doubled the salary Payton would make with the Lakers next season.

He decided to come anyway, giving the mandate to his agent, Aaron Goodwin.

Plus, "Shaq came to me and said if I didn't get [Payton] to L.A. he was going to break my neck," Goodwin said. "I ain't afraid of Shaq, though."

It's the rest of the league that should be afraid — afraid of how good the Lakers will be with Payton.

J.A. Adande can be reached at [email protected].



Yet you still doubt Pop & RC....IDIOTS.



WHOTT :gun

Archie
07-09-2003, 07:22 PM
No, he doesn't address their primary need. Luring a power forward such as P.J. Brown or Juwan Howard with the mid-level exception would have been the best move if the Lakers' main priority was finding someone to counter the Tim Duncans, Chris Webbers and Kevin Garnetts of the Western Conference.

But Mitch Kupchak went the aggressive route. Go get the best player and force the rest of the league to counter that.

Think about it in the abstract: Who's the best, Payton, Brown or Howard?

Payton.


Exactly. Some geniuses here have yet to understand this.

adidas11
07-10-2003, 01:20 AM
When good players like Payton and Malone come knocking on your doorstep, willing to play for next to nothing, you take it, and ask questions later.

SAmikeyp
07-10-2003, 01:29 AM
^^^^this is true, the chance for a ring speaks volume.

Ghost Writer
07-10-2003, 10:37 AM
And like I said, getting a power forward was more integral to the Lakers' needs. And upgrading Fisher to be Payton is a no-brainer.

The Lakers are filling out a need and a want.

I hope the Spurs can do the same.



Back to beating this new-look Lakers team.


I think we have to hope:

• These guys have problems sharing the ball

• Age and attrition catches up to the vets leading to injuries

• We capitalize on our superior speed



:cooldevil