Grades: Spurs vs. Knicks - Mar. 2, 2021

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-new-york-knicks-game-31/

Good stuff, tbh :tu

[Stump]

Thanks OP

[Mugen]

Honestly can't remember the last Spurs player with such a dramatic turnaround defensively like Luka. Early this year, he looked absolutely lost on that end and I wan't sure he'd be able to defend at the WNBA level tbh.

Tonight he effectively shuts down Randle, like wtf :lol

[tbdog]

Anyone concerned with Walker's shooting? He is under 40% now.

Also the refs were so inconsistent today. And we got the better end of the deal this time.

[Slippy]

Its a damn shame some of these guys are going to miss out on mins when the rest of the team gets back.. they are all productive.

Luca looking ready defensively from man on man to rebounding is probably the most exciting development from this undermanned spurs team.

[tbdog]

Its a damn shame some of these guys are going to miss out on mins when the rest of the team gets back.. they are all productive.

Luca looking ready defensively from man on man to rebounding is probably the most exciting development from this undermanned spurs team.

No rush, really. Just be great full that we have depth this time.

[John B]

Thanks Timvp. This team is fast becoming long, athletic good. Dang, what different combinations that Pop has on his arsenals. Luka and Diop are exciting as Swiss-Army knives bigs who can guard multiple positions. Luka’s 4 TO’s (2 charges, 2 travels) are because of his aggressiveness, very fixable as he learns to adjust. But that 3pt range plus quick step and ballhandling should get him a lot of shots. Aldridge has looong time to decide that his days in the starting lineup is done. Great win!

[Slippy]

Anyone concerned with Walker's shooting? He is under 40% now.

Also the refs were so inconsistent today. And we got the better end of the deal this time.

No . The shots are there, Lonny not hesitating and keeping defense honest. They dont sag off him like some of his teammates.

The only concern he needs to mix it up more and finish better on the drive.. one thing for sure , he aint overpasssing on the drive like a few games ago

[heyheymymy]

Luka had such a huge night that it overshadowed what seems to be one of Lyles most complete games yet.

[rankingtear]

Anyone concerned with Walker's shooting? He is under 40% now.

Also the refs were so inconsistent today. And we got the better end of the deal this time.

Not this game, he is playing how he was suppose to play. As close he is to the game of patty the better.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Spurs had 10 players with 8 points or more. I don’t ever remember that happening before. I wonder the last time that happened.

[heyheymymy]

9 different players have led the Spurs in scoring which is most in the league

[spurs10]

Great win and great write-up!

[Fireball]

That was an impressive win against one of the better defensive teams in the NBA ... mainly because it was a b2b ... threes were falling ... steals galore ... and the excitement about Luka is heating up. The future is bright!

[siraulo23]

Honestly can't remember the last Spurs player with such a dramatic turnaround defensively like Luka. Early this year, he looked absolutely lost on that end and I wan't sure he'd be able to defend at the WNBA level tbh.

Tonight he effectively shuts down Randle, like wtf :lol

seriously wtf lmao

he went from a non nba player to being able to hold his own on the perimeter and post defense

wut

[tbdog]

Not this game, he is playing how he was suppose to play. As close he is to the game of patty the better.

Patty Mills is shooting 5% better from the field and 6% better from down town. And also scoring more. Lonnie is like the 3rd of 4th option most of the time. He should be taken good shots and hitting them.

[Blackhaus]

Patty Mills is shooting 5% better from the field and 6% better from down town. And also scoring more. Lonnie is like the 3rd of 4th option most of the time. He should be taken good shots and hitting them.

Patty actual gets plays drawn up for him and pick and rolls. Lonnie gets neither. He usually gets the ball when things break down or on the end of the shot clock. Could he hit a few more of those spot up 3’s? Absolutely. Hopefully he will become more consistent.

[rankingtear]

Patty Mills is shooting 5% better from the field and 6% better from down town. And also scoring more. Lonnie is like the 3rd of 4th option most of the time. He should be taken good shots and hitting them.

Lonnie making decisions hasn't work so far this season. He should just let it fly as to not bog down the offense. Even if he is not hitting at least it increases the pace.

[BillMc]

Not this game, he is playing how he was suppose to play. As close he is to the game of patty the better.

With Lonnie's athletcism, his ceiling being Patty would be pretty disappointing (though it'd keep him in the league, obviously. As most picks actually don't last, it'd still make the LW pick a success).

[exstatic]

Anyone still bitching about Yak’s contract? We got the best screen setter, and a top 3 rim protector for <$10M.

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1367100594029277184?s=19

[The Truth #6]

Anyone still bitching about Yak’s contract? We got the best screen setter, and a top 3 rim protector for <$10M.

It’s a fantastic situation. My concern at the time was that by not trading LA it was going to screw up Yak’s season and in general cause chemistry issues. But Pop has started Yak over LA, which has been an amazing unexpected development. I didn’t want LA to fall off a cliff, but overall it’s working out great.

[KobesAchilles]

Lonnie making decisions hasn't work so far this season. He should just let it fly as to not bog down the offense. Even if he is not hitting at least it increases the pace.
So you are saying Lonnie should be playing a Jaren Jackson role. Interesting. I wonder who said that before... oh wait. It's me! You know the guy who you keep attacking over my Lonnie Walker take

[FkLA]

We're back, boys.

[Mr. Body]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1367100594029277184?s=19

Imagine if they had a healthy squad all year. 50-win team.

[Dejounte]

Anyone still bitching about Yak’s contract? We got the best screen setter, and a top 3 rim protector for <$10M.

https://twitter.com/TheTyJager/status/1367133620268392450

"But he doesn't score 10 points a game!"

[KobesAchilles]

Gotta wait a year... He is looking like a steal though. Amazing coaching by Pop this year. Really hall of fame stuff getting the most out of even his scrubbiest players. Turns a player who can't catch a ball or go up strong and fouls a lot into a premier rim defender. Glad the old man got his fire back

[PrimeMinister]

Our boy Jakob is protecting the rim at an elite level, is now being tasked more and more with initiating offensive sets from the high post- made some nice passes, DROVE IT TO THE BASKET FROM THE TRIPLE THREAT FOR A BUCKET....

I know, bringing up this name will cause me to spontaneously combust. But you can start to see the work with Timmy coming through and I see more and more flashes of that type of presence on the floor. Not saying he’s that good- obviously, not saying he will even touch the 2015 iteration of Timmy at his peak- but hes starting to put his fingerprints all over the game in ways that Timmy used to.

[FkLA]

Gotta wait a year... He is looking like a steal though. Amazing coaching by Pop this year. Really hall of fame stuff getting the most out of even his scrubbiest players. Turns a player who can't catch a ball or go up strong and fouls a lot into a premier rim defender. Glad the old man got his fire back

The fuck you talking about? This isn't anything new. Yak has always been a monster on defense. Most people are just too dumb to look past his FT% or lack of offensive skill.

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282408&highlight=Yak

[DAF86]

If Samanic can prove that his defense isn't a fluke, in these next few games, and can hit the open 3, I don't see any reason why he should be left off the rotation, tbh. And maybe even start in the short run. I love Keldon but he's more of a 2-3 than a 3-4. It is about time we start integrating Luka to the team.

[DAF86]

If Samanic can prove that his defense isn't a fluke, in these next few games, and can hit the open 3. I don't see any reason why he should be left off the rotation, tbh. And maybe even start in the short run. I love Keldon but he's more of a 2-3 than a 3-4. It is about time we start integrating Luka to the team.

We might have to move Gay to a contender to make room for Luka (and even Lyles).

[KobesAchilles]

The fuck you talking about? This isn't anything new. Yak has always been a monster on defense. Most people are just too dumb to look past his FT% or lack of offensive skill.

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282408&highlight=Yak
Pop gets a back up center who couldn't even average 20 minutes a game as a top 10 pick, with no offensive game, hands of stone, foul prone, and had no idea how to play. And by year 3, he has him playing like DPOY. taught him to catch a pass, and schemed him only to play to his strengths. If that's not coaching then why the hell did Toronto get rid of him?

[spurraider21]

Derozan's assist numbers of late have been outstanding

[DAF86]

Pop gets a back up center who couldn't even average 20 minutes a game as a top 10 pick, with no offensive game, hands of stone, foul prone, and had no idea how to play. And by year 3, he has him playing like DPOY. taught him to catch a pass, and schemed him only to play to his strengths. If that's not coaching then why the hell did Toronto get rid of him?

Hmm, to get the best player to ever play for their franchise? FYI, Raptors' fans and management loved Poeltl, but they knew they needed to give up something.

[ginobilized]

The 2nd half of the season could be even better than the first.
Here's to keeping the full roster intact. The Spurs match up possibilities could be pretty incredible. Could play almost completely different units on back-to-backs.
I'm very impressed with the entire squad. Who thought they'd be in 5th in the West at this point? Not me.

Thanks for the great game grades, timvp!

[KobesAchilles]

Hmm, to get the best player to ever play for their franchise? FYI, Raptors' fans and management loved Poeltl, but they knew they needed to give up something.
I thought we wanted either Siakim or OG though and they chose Poetl to dump. Anyone who says that Pop isn't who made Poetl is a troll who is just hating on Pop. he's back guys. He took some time off after losing his wife, but he has the fire back. No other coach can do what he is doing with such a young roster. Hell even Larry Brown quit after a year and a half with such a young team back in 91.

It's a textbook master class on how to take raw talent and develop it into a player. Gets a player who can't dribble, pass, or shoot as a point guard and turns him into the MIPOY. Gets a center who can't catch, finish, stay on the floor, and know where to be on offense and turns him into a DPOY candidate who is solid offensively now. Luka has no idea how to play defense, couple years with Pop and everyone is like "omg Luka! Where did this defense come from?" He's playing for the greatest defensive coach ever and maybe the greatest teacher ever. Pop might not fix vets, but if he gets you young, he will mold you into a damn good player

[DAF86]

I thought we wanted either Siakim or OG though and they chose Poetl to dump. Anyone who says that Pop isn't who made Poetl is a troll who is just hating on Pop. he's back guys. He took some time off after losing his wife, but he has the fire back. No other coach can do what he is doing with such a young roster. Hell even Larry Brown quit after a year and a half with such a young team back in 91.

It's a textbook master class on how to take raw talent and develop it into a player. Gets a player who can't dribble, pass, or shoot as a point guard and turns him into the MIPOY. Gets a center who can't catch, finish, stay on the floor, and know where to be on offense and turns him into a DPOY candidate who is solid offensively now. Luka has no idea how to play defense, couple years with Pop and everyone is like "omg Luka! Where did this defense come from?" He's playing for the greatest defensive coach ever and maybe the greatest teacher ever. Pop might not fix vets, but if he gets you young, he will mold you into a damn good player

First of all, no, we don't know that to be the case. But, let's say that was indeed how it happened. The Raptors preferring to keep Siakam and Anunoby over Poeltl doesn't mean Jacob wasn't good. Like I told you, they loved him in Toronto. Any Raptors fan or Canadian guy can tell you that. Poeltl has been good since he got to the league and even prior to that. There's a reason he got picked 9th overall. Higher than any of our other youngsters.

[J_Paco]

The fuck you talking about? This isn't anything new. Yak has always been a monster on defense. Most people are just too dumb to look past his FT% or lack of offensive skill.

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282408&highlight=Yak

The crazy part is the guy does have some offensive skill and a post game (look at his college tape at Utah), but that just isn't efficient enough to be a viable option on offense. It sucks a little cause I love interior play, but him setting screens and playing in the high post is a much better use of his talent and the offense.

I do wish they'd give him some of those looks against mismatches and maybe that'll happen as he further cements himself as a starter. I'm happy for the guy cause I was definitely concerned he'd be nothing more than a career back up (Nerlens Noel) drafted way too high.

I knew he was good in Toronto (splitting time with Jonas), but I was concerned he had plateaued early and would never reach starter level or validate his draft positioning.

I also want to see if he can do a much better job against the few elite post up big men remaining. He did a bad to mediocre job when matched up again Jokic & Embiid in the bubble and I'm hopeful his improved confidence can lead to a better effort there.

[KobesAchilles]

First of all, no, we don't know that to be the case. But, let's say that was indeed how it happened. The Raptors preferring to keep Siakam and Anunoby over Poeltl doesn't mean Jacob wasn't good. Like I told you, they loved him in Toronto. Any Raptors fan or Canadian guy can tell you that. Poeltl has been good since he got to the league and even prior to that. There's a reason he got picked 9th overall. Higher than any of our other youngsters.

They loved him so much they barely played him :lol

Just stop with this Pop hate. Poeltl would not be the player he is today without Pop. It's ridiculous to say otherwise. Both OG and Siakim have taken huge steps back as far as player development goes this year. Nick Nurse would not have made Poeltl into a DPOY caliber player. He wouldn't be running a defensive or offensive system that plays to the strengths of Poeltl. They liked Poeltl bc he has the tools to be this and they took the risk that he could be developed, but if you think Nick Nurse or Dwayne Casey were going to develop him then I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.

Pop did to Poeltl exactly what he is doing to Luka. He is teaching him, playing to his strengths, and putting him a position to succeed.

[Mugen]

We might have to move Gay to a contender to make room for Luka (and even Lyles).

I'd prefer going that route rather than having Luka start for Keldon. Keldon has earned that starting role. Removing Lonnie and LA from the SL is enough of a fix, no further changes needed unless dictated by injury tbh.

SL: Dejounte/White/Keldon/Derozan/Poetl
Bench (assuming you can offload Rudy): Fatty/Lonnie/Vassell/Luka/LA

that's a top 5-6 team in the West with a 2nd round ceiling tbh.

I don't think they end up moving Rudy but I agree that it'd be a shame if Luka isn't part of the rotation somehow when everybody is healthy.

[Sugus]

Anyone still bitching about Yak’s contract? We got the best screen setter, and a top 3 rim protector for <$10M.

I haven't seen the Dude around much lately, but he was absolutely cliff-jumping off that signing :lol


This team has really sucked the joy out of being a fan. I’ve never seen such an overall fall from grace from a once revered front office.

Yeah Jakob isn’t catastrophic in and of itself; but it’s a continuation of a trend of really poor decision making and doing Jack shit right.

That whole thread is great to read back in hindsight. SpursTalk will shit on anything and everything, no matter the context...

[RC_Drunkford]

With that brutal of a schedule that we got left we might really need all 16 bodies (I’m not counting Weatherspoon) on the roster. Would be beneficial if you could rest players on occasion.

[Sugus]

My guy Dejounte predicting the future... Spoke this into existence from the start :stirpot:


A good surprise this season would be Samanic being good. That would raise the hell out of the team's ceiling.

Right now what the team is hoping for is for the Vassell + Keldon bench combo to raise the ceiling. Samanic would be gravy.

[slick'81]

Poodle fucking power!

[Dejounte]

I haven't seen the Dude around much lately, but he was absolutely cliff-jumping off that signing :lol



That whole thread is great to read back in hindsight. SpursTalk will shit on anything and everything, no matter the context...

Why does that guy only post during the offseason? Really odd lmao

[DAF86]

They loved him so much they barely played him :lol

Just stop with this Pop hate. Poeltl would not be the player he is today without Pop. It's ridiculous to say otherwise. Both OG and Siakim have taken huge steps back as far as player development goes this year. Nick Nurse would not have made Poeltl into a DPOY caliber player. He wouldn't be running a defensive or offensive system that plays to the strengths of Poeltl. They liked Poeltl bc he has the tools to be this and they took the risk that he could be developed, but if you think Nick Nurse or Dwayne Casey were going to develop him then I have some oceanfront property in Arizona to sell you.

Pop did to Poeltl exactly what he is doing to Luka. He is teaching him, playing to his strengths, and putting him a position to succeed.

What Pop hate? Dude stop inventing narratives. :lol

All I'm saying is that Poeltl has always been good, because that's the truth. Of course that players' develop over time, but Poeltl has been relatively solid since he got to the league. He's just following the normal developmental curve.

[mo7888]

Why does that guy only post during the offseason? Really odd lmao

He's still posting on Twitter but it has been more sporadically the last month...

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

A fun game to watch. Loving Luka...looks like his teammates really like him too, which is cool to see. And, for a night, I was wrong about Trey Lyles. I hope he continues to prove me wrong. Sad to think we could easily have 4 or 5 more wins without the Covid outbreak. I heard we have 40 games in 68 days after the all-star break, so it's good we have so many young legs to rely on.

[Dejounte]

A fun game to watch. Loving Luka...looks like his teammates really like him too, which is cool to see. And, for a night, I was wrong about Trey Lyles. I hope he continues to prove me wrong. Sad to think we could easily have 4 or 5 more wins without the Covid outbreak. I heard we have 40 games in 68 days after the all-star break, so it's good we have so many young legs to rely on.

I'm just wishing the dude would get rid of his cringe-worthy bio on instagram. So much teen angst.

[KobesAchilles]

What Pop hate? Dude stop inventing narratives. :lol

All I'm saying is that Poeltl has always been good, because that's the truth. Of course that players' develop over time, but Poeltl has been relatively solid since he got to the league. He's just following the normal developmental curve.

relatively solid and being in the contention for DPOY are two different things buddy. That’s the Pop effect. Sad you think so low of him that you compare Pop’s player development to Nick Nurse but that’s the Spurstalk we live in I guess

[tonight...you]

relatively solid and being in the contention for DPOY are two different things buddy. That’s the Pop effect. Sad you think so low of him that you compare Pop’s player development to Nick Nurse but that’s the Spurstalk we live in I guess
A part of me will die when Pop retires.
He's almost family, how long he's been a part of my life.

And he's the best coach I have ever seen.
You're right, he lost some fire for a bit, but it looks like he's on point again and I love it.

He's not perfect, but there isn't a coach alive, or dead that is/was.

[DAF86]

relatively solid and being in the contention for DPOY are two different things buddy. That’s the Pop effect. Sad you think so low of him that you compare Pop’s player development to Nick Nurse but that’s the Spurstalk we live in I guess

Dude, you are diverting the conversation trying to make it seem like folks are somehow hating on Pop's player development just because we called you out on your take of Poeltl being a borderline scrub before. :lol

I don't know how Poeltl would have fared on another team. Maybe he would be less of a player, maybe he would be better. Likely he would be right about the same. All we know for certain is that he has been a good player all the years of his carrer so far.

[KobesAchilles]

Dude, you are diverting the conversation trying to make it seem like folks are somehow hating on Pop's player development just because we called you out on your take of Poeltl being a borderline scrub before. :lol

I don't know how Poeltl would have fared on another team. Maybe he would be less of a player, maybe he would be better. Likely he would be right about the same. All we know for certain is that he has been a good player all the years of his carrer so far.

No what I did was divert the conversation by giving all the credit for Jak’s improvement to Pop :lol
I also did the same for Luka and Murray...

but you took offense to the Jak part. for some reason and even suggested that Pop has inhibited Jak as a player by saying he could’ve been better on another team. Pop has a stellar track record for teaching youth to play and mold them into better players. But somehow he didn’t improve Jak one bit? Jak was always that good? C’mon man. We both know that ain’t true. If Jak “always” played this well then I probably wouldn’t have bitched about the contract to begin with...

probably

[DAF86]

No what I did was divert the conversation by giving all the credit for Jak’s improvement to Pop :lol
I also did the same for Luka and Murray...

but you took offense to the Jak part. for some reason and even suggested that Pop has inhibited Jak as a player by saying he could’ve been better on another team. Pop has a stellar track record for teaching youth to play and mold them into better players. But somehow he didn’t improve Jak one bit? Jak was always that good? C’mon man. We both know that ain’t true. If Jak “always” played this well then I probably wouldn’t have bitched about the contract to begin with...

probably

And who said Jak has always been THIS good? :lol

Now you are just making shit up because you know you have no leg to stand on. :lol

Of course Poeltl has never been this good. No player is as good in his rookie year as in the following ones. The argument has never been that Poeltl has been THIS good. The point is that Poeltl has never been a scrub. He has met expectations ever since he arrived to the league and he just keeps getting better as the natural development process indicates. Your problem was trying to sell Poeltl as some kind of scrub that only got good when he got to the Spurs just to try to make your point. That's what people called you out on.

[KobesAchilles]

And who said Jak has always been THIS good? :lol

Now you are just making shit up because you know you have no leg to stand on. :lol

Of course Poeltl has never been this good. No player is as good in his rookie year as in the following ones. The argument has never been that Poeltl has been THIS good. The point is that Poeltl has never been a scrub. He has met expectations ever since he arrived to the league and he just keeps getting better as the natural development process indicates. Your problem was trying to sell Poeltl as some kind of scrub that only got good when he got to the Spurs just to try to make your point. That's what people called you out on.
Nah he was always a scrub. He had potential sure. But a guy who averaged 4 points 4 rebounds his first 3 seasons with Toronto and played less than 20 minutes a game is pretty scrub like. It’s almost the definition. He was also had that scrub mentality when he got here where he would foul like crazy bc he had no idea how to play proper defense. Pop benched him for stupid fouls and got rid of that habit. He taught Poeltl positioning and where to be in order to not foul. Poeltl would not be this good in Toronto. To say otherwise IS a slight to Pop

[DAF86]

Nah he was always a scrub. He had potential sure. But a guy who averaged 4 points 4 rebounds his first 3 seasons with Toronto and played less than 20 minutes a game is pretty scrub like. It’s almost the definition. He was also had that scrub mentality when he got here where he would foul like crazy bc he had no idea how to play proper defense. Pop benched him for stupid fouls and got rid of that habit. He taught Poeltl positioning and where to be in order to not foul. Poeltl would not be this good in Toronto. To say otherwise IS a slight to Pop

I guess Devin Vassell isn't a promising rookie that will get better with time, he's just a scrub because he averages less than 20 mpg and shoots 39% from the field. See how retarded your argument is? :lol

His last season in Toronto, Poeltl averaged 7 pts and 5 rbds with positive metrics both on offense and defense. Those numbers declined the following 2 seasons after getting to San Antonio. If anything, getting here might have slowed his development a bit.

Stop trying to argue this shit. Your argument is dumb. You make no sense, you have no evidence to back you up, and when you find yourself without a comeback you resort to moving goal posts or trying to play with semantics. I see it, you see it, we all see it. Stop embarrassing yourself. The posters everybody hates are the ones that keep fighting lost causes that everyone and their mothers can see are lost.

Tim Duncan bless, son.

[venitian navigator]

It takes a while to just know our playbook...usually at least one year just to be able to follow the main guidelines...I know after DDR and LMA came here the playbook, at least the first year, has been limited and so become more simplier, but I think that with a NBDL team playing the same plays we have now a pretty solid habit of developing our player's knowledge of the entire playbook.
I say that because the conversation above is simply one that, I hope, can be explained and resolved in the sense that Poeltl improvement belong in part to his natural develompent as a skilled player from the beginning (DAF86) in part because of the teaching skills of Pop and our environment and other coaches (KobeAchilles), in part, finally, in consideration of the necessary time to absorb the main principles of our difficult playbook (possible missing link)...

[ragas]

Guys who have never seen Poeltl play before being traded to SA talking about his years in Toronto :lmao
Strangley enough the same guys been saying he's not worth his contract. :bang
Well done, keep on going. You're raising the ceiling of ST :clap

[Dejounte]

I wonder where Shakril is these days

[KobesAchilles]

I guess Devin Vassell isn't a promising rookie that will get better with time, he's just a scrub because he averages less than 20 mpg and shoots 39% from the field. See how retarded your argument is? :lol

His last season in Toronto, Poeltl averaged 7 pts and 5 rbds with positive metrics both on offense and defense. Those numbers declined the following 2 seasons after getting to San Antonio. If anything, getting here might have slowed his development a bit.

Stop trying to argue this shit. Your argument is dumb. You make no sense, you have no evidence to back you up, and when you find yourself without a comeback you resort to moving goal posts or trying to play with semantics. I see it, you see it, we all see it. Stop embarrassing yourself. The posters everybody hates are the ones that keep fighting lost causes that everyone and their mothers can see are lost.

Tim Duncan bless, son.
My argument is that Pop developed Jak. You say he didn’t. Then you suggested he would be even better somewhere else. I mean how would he be better than he is now? Seriously.

And yes to answer your question about Vassell. If he had 3 straight seasons of trash scoring and never got much playing time in those 3 seasons I would totally say he was a bust for where he was drafted. You don’t draft a guy at 11 hoping he can give you 18 minutes a game. Poeltl had no feel for the game. Pop knew it. Timvp ran a report on him when we got him and it said he was foul prone.

Now all of a sudden he doesn’t foul as often. But that has nothing to do with Pop? Pop taught him technique, positioning his body, and demanded something from Jak that honestly wasn’t demanded from him over in Toronto and that was to pay attention to detail. Jak had the tools. But if you can’t see Pop’s influence on Jak’s game that isn’t me being wrong that is you being blind.

[ragas]

My argument is that Pop developed Jak. You say he didn’t. Then you suggested he would be even better somewhere else. I mean how would he be better than he is now? Seriously.

Poeltl shot 59% of his free throws in his second season in Toronto. And for the Spurs? What does that say about the Spurs development? :lol

The Spurs developed Jak, but so did the Raptors (and Utah before that). I mean, the Raptors proved to be good in developing players over the last few seasons: VanFleet, Siakam, Anunoby,... Jak played from the beginning for the Raptors and was part of the Raptors "Bench Mob" in his second year - a line-up, which had similar numbers to this year's Spurs bench. And Jak was a big reason for that. He had a +10 netrating as a rookie, +18 in year 2. he definitely was no scrub when he came into the league. The Raptors would have been happy to keep him if they hadn't got the chance for Kawhi.

[Gagnrath]

He's not perfect, but there isn't a coach alive, or dead that is/was.
If you don't stop lying on him, Coach Knight will throw a chair at you from the retirement home!!!

[Dex]

Poeltl shot 59% of his free throws in his second season in Toronto. And for the Spurs? What does that say about the Spurs development? :lol


It looks like they have been re-working his free throw shot. When you do that, things typically get worse before they get better until you get confident with the new form.

Granted, 31% is fucking awful :lol But he's a career 51% free throw shooter. He also doesn't get to the line a LOT, so that bad stretch to start the season really put him in a hole percentage wise. In his first 10 games he was only 23% from the line, so he is slowly trending in the right direction (at one point he was 1/8 for 12.5%)

It's not like he just dropped off a cliff out of nowhere, and at least he is taking the time to try to improve even if the results aren't there yet.

[lefty]

seriously wtf lmao

he went from a non nba player to being able to hold his own on the perimeter and post defense

wutHe's a smart player, he understands what iy takes to play at that level and has worked his ass off

[KobesAchilles]

Poeltl shot 59% of his free throws in his second season in Toronto. And for the Spurs? What does that say about the Spurs development? :lol

The Spurs developed Jak, but so did the Raptors (and Utah before that). I mean, the Raptors proved to be good in developing players over the last few seasons: VanFleet, Siakam, Anunoby,... Jak played from the beginning for the Raptors and was part of the Raptors "Bench Mob" in his second year - a line-up, which had similar numbers to this year's Spurs bench. And Jak was a big reason for that. He had a +10 netrating as a rookie, +18 in year 2. he definitely was no scrub when he came into the league. The Raptors would have been happy to keep him if they hadn't got the chance for Kawhi.

We have two different definitions of scrubs. I mean the guy came in as a top 10 pick and gave you 1 made basket and 3 rebounds a game in 11 minutes a game. You make him sound like was some integral part of the team. If he was so important, why did play so little? Hell Kwame Brown probably makes your hall of fame if your standards are that low. I'd love to have you as my agent, but hate to have you as my GM. Look at his net rating as a rookie! Yeah he didn't play any or score any or rebound any, but that net rating though. He was a BIG part of the bench squad... even though the rest of the bench got more minutes than him :lol

He did explode in year 2. I will give you that. He nearly tripled his production offensively and doubled it rebounding wise. His defense was probably pretty good too. I didn't watch a lot of Toronto games other than when they folded in the playoffs or if we faced them. So I am no Raptor expert.

But this year, I don't know what Pop did to him in the middle of the season but it worked. Jakob seemed whiney all offseason, looked like he put in zero effort at all during the offseason. His free throw percentage actually helps my point with Pop not hurts it. Without Pop, his lazy ass didn't shoot a single free throw during the offseason. With Pop (and obviously others in the coaching staff) it has gotten progressively better. Poeltl came in here whining about wanting more minutes and wanting to be a starter and Pop sent his ass to the bench, told Poeltl what he expected from him in order to be a starter, high lighted what they are going to focus on to improve during the season, and told him that he wouldn't expect anything less than his best. And this is the result.

He didn't just magically get better in the middle of the season. That is coaching

[K...]

Are we ignoring that his better play and foul rate are probably caused by him not having to cover Forbes as much? He's going to look good with 2-3 plus defenders and look bad with less.

[BackHome]

I wonder where Shakril (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=53511) is these days

That is Poodle agent won’t hear from him until next contract time. Lol

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'm just wishing the dude would get rid of his cringe-worthy bio on instagram. So much teen angst.

It was funny, I sat right behind Luka and Keldon at a game last season, and watching Luka made me think of how a high school kid would act if you suddenly handed him a couple million dollars. You realize truly how young and naive these guys are when you have any opportunity to be near them for a bit. He's obviously making great strides in just a year.

[BackHome]

We have two different definitions of scrubs. I mean the guy came in as a top 10 pick and gave you 1 made basket and 3 rebounds a game in 11 minutes a game. You make him sound like was some integral part of the team. If he was so important, why did play so little? Hell Kwame Brown probably makes your hall of fame if your standards are that low. I'd love to have you as my agent, but hate to have you as my GM. Look at his net rating as a rookie! Yeah he didn't play any or score any or rebound any, but that net rating though. He was a BIG part of the bench squad... even though the rest of the bench got more minutes than him :lol

He did explode in year 2. I will give you that. He nearly tripled his production offensively and doubled it rebounding wise. His defense was probably pretty good too. I didn't watch a lot of Toronto games other than when they folded in the playoffs or if we faced them. So I am no Raptor expert.

But this year, I don't know what Pop did to him in the middle of the season but it worked. Jakob seemed whiney all offseason, looked like he put in zero effort at all during the offseason. His free throw percentage actually helps my point with Pop not hurts it. Without Pop, his lazy ass didn't shoot a single free throw during the offseason. With Pop (and obviously others in the coaching staff) it has gotten progressively better. Poeltl came in here whining about wanting more minutes and wanting to be a starter and Pop sent his ass to the bench, told Poeltl what he expected from him in order to be a starter, high lighted what they are going to focus on to improve during the season, and told him that he wouldn't expect anything less than his best. And this is the result.

He didn't just magically get better in the middle of the season. That is coaching

Good write up and have to say I agree with you 100% - Poodle is the type of Player that needs hard consistent coaching or he will just fade away. What soured me on him is that he whined about getting more minutes but you could tell he put ZERO work this off season - His free throws form and shooting were just terrible and don’t even talk about mid range or 3
ball work. He didn’t look like he lifted weights nor even worked on dunking the ball that told me he just expected to start and get better all by magic.

I have not been a fan and have said he is not a starter but a good bench player. But like Luka it looks like the light bulb may have finally gone on for him. I do think Pop had some tough love conversations with him and what he needs to do daily and what he needs to do to get better if he wants to continue to be a Spur. The last couple of games I have given him props he almost had back to back doubles and if he can continue to get 8 to 10 pts and 8 to 10 rebounds a game I will be a happy camper and will give him his props.

[DAF86]

My argument is that Pop developed Jak. You say he didn’t. Then you suggested he would be even better somewhere else. I mean how would he be better than he is now? Seriously.

And yes to answer your question about Vassell. If he had 3 straight seasons of trash scoring and never got much playing time in those 3 seasons I would totally say he was a bust for where he was drafted. You don’t draft a guy at 11 hoping he can give you 18 minutes a game. Poeltl had no feel for the game. Pop knew it. Timvp ran a report on him when we got him and it said he was foul prone.

Now all of a sudden he doesn’t foul as often. But that has nothing to do with Pop? Pop taught him technique, positioning his body, and demanded something from Jak that honestly wasn’t demanded from him over in Toronto and that was to pay attention to detail. Jak had the tools. But if you can’t see Pop’s influence on Jak’s game that isn’t me being wrong that is you being blind.

Like I said, moving goal posts and/or changing words to invent an answer. :lol

Poeltl has been a good player ever since he got to the league. He posted positive metrics ever since his 2nd year. He improved every year (except that year that he went from the Raptors to the Spurs). These are all facts and that's what I'm looking at. You can carry on with your unsupported opinion though, just don't expect folks that know better to buy it, tbh.

[Brazil]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1367100594029277184?s=19

that's not bad at all tbh...

[RC_Drunkford]

Good write up and have to say I agree with you 100% - Poodle is the type of Player that needs hard consistent coaching or he will just fade away. What soured me on him is that he whined about getting more minutes but you could tell he put ZERO work this off season - His free throws form and shooting were just terrible and don’t even talk about mid range or 3
ball work. He didn’t look like he lifted weights nor even worked on dunking the ball that told me he just expected to start and get better all by magic.

I have not been a fan and have said he is not a starter but a good bench player. But like Luka it looks like the light bulb may have finally gone on for him. I do think Pop had some tough love conversations with him and what he needs to do daily and what he needs to do to get better if he wants to continue to be a Spur. The last couple of games I have given him props he almost had back to back doubles and if he can continue to get 8 to 10 pts and 8 to 10 rebounds a game I will be a happy camper and will give him his props.

the guy literally said in an interview that basketball doesn’t motivate him and he only plays it cause he’s tall :lol

somehow people here whine about players not putting in work but Jakob Turtle gets a pass cause he plays defense

[KobesAchilles]

the guy literally said in an interview that basketball doesn’t motivate him and he only plays it cause he’s tall :lol

somehow people here whine about players not putting in work but Jakob Turtle gets a pass cause he plays defense
Agreed.

And these same guys refusing to give Pop any credit. Dude showed in the off-season that he put in NO work during it. He had about the shittiest start to a season you could ask of from a player. Next thing you know, after couple months of actual coaching from Pop, and he is balling. But my Poeltl would always be good :cry

[KobesAchilles]

Like I said, moving goal posts and/or changing words to invent an answer. :lol

Poeltl has been a good player ever since he got to the league. He posted positive metrics ever since his 2nd year. He improved every year (except that year that he went from the Raptors to the Spurs). These are all facts and that's what I'm looking at. You can carry on with your unsupported opinion though, just don't expect folks that know better to buy it, tbh.
Like I said, we just have two different definitions of good. I call all star players good and franchise players great. You call Jakob Poeltl good from year 2. It is what it is. I considered Poeltl meh to aight.

I don't know how Poeltl would have fared on another team. Maybe he would be less of a player, maybe he would be better. Likely he would be right about the same. That's what you said. I didn't have to invent anything. The guy came into this season playing beyond horribly. He showed no proof that he worked on anything during the offseason. All he really did was whine about his minutes and how he should start. Dude doesn't seem to be self-motivated and he himself has said so. raw talent is useless without a drive. He needs real coaching and Pop is giving it to him.

[DAF86]

Like I said, we just have two different definitions of good. I call all star players good and franchise players great. You call Jakob Poeltl good from year 2. It is what it is. I considered Poeltl meh to aight.

I don't know how Poeltl would have fared on another team. Maybe he would be less of a player, maybe he would be better. Likely he would be right about the same. That's what you said. I didn't have to invent anything. The guy came into this season playing beyond horribly. He showed no proof that he worked on anything during the offseason. All he really did was whine about his minutes and how he should start. Dude doesn't seem to be self-motivated and he himself has said so. raw talent is useless without a drive. He needs real coaching and Pop is giving it to him.

And how do you transform that sentence into "you said he would be even better on another team"? :lol

[DAF86]

Agreed.

And these same guys refusing to give Pop any credit. Dude showed in the off-season that he put in NO work during it. He had about the shittiest start to a season you could ask of from a player. Next thing you know, after couple months of actual coaching from Pop, and he is balling. But my Poeltl would always be good :cry

Slow starts to seasons =/= not being good

[KobesAchilles]

And how do you transform that sentence into "you said he would be even better on another team"? :lol
I said you "suggested" it. And then you got your panties in a twist when I said that you suggested it when guess what? You suggested it. Why even add that part in the sentence then if you didn't mean it?

And slow start? Damn your parameters and mine are waaaaay different. You can't just say he sucked beyond belief? That he was way worse than you expected him to be? You just say that he had a slow start. No big deal. 22% free throw shooting. eh just a slow start. Pump faking Ja Morant, eh slow start. Scoring zero points and air balling lay ups. Eh slow start. There's a reason why some players start slow and others don't. They don't put in work during the offseason.

LMA puts in no work in the offseason and guess what, he gets off to slow starts. being lazy will do that to you :lol

[DAF86]

I said you "suggested" it. And then you got your panties in a twist when I said that you suggested it when guess what? You suggested it. Why even add that part in the sentence then if you didn't mean it?

And slow start? Damn your parameters and mine are waaaaay different. You can't just say he sucked beyond belief? That he was way worse than you expected him to be? You just say that he had a slow start. No big deal. 22% free throw shooting. eh just a slow start. Pump faking Ja Morant, eh slow start. Scoring zero points and air balling lay ups. Eh slow start. There's a reason why some players start slow and others don't. They don't put in work during the offseason.

LMA puts in no work in the offseason and guess what, he gets off to slow starts. being lazy will do that to you :lol

Well, I also suggested he might be worse too but you chose not to quote that part for some reason. :lol If you really want to know how I think about this subject you should have stayed with the last part: "likely, he would be about the same anywhere".

You are acting as if Poeltl had somehow improved his game dramatically and that couldn't be further from the truth. He's pretty much the same player he was when he entered the league only with more minutes, more experience and more confidence.

If you told me Poeltl had developed a jumper, or a post up game, or did anything much different than what he used to do then I might be on board with the idea that the Spurs really did something special to develop this guy (like they did with Kawhi's jumper). But as things are I can't claim that because Poeltl isn't showing us anything that he didn't already show in Toronto. If anything, the biggest change, game wise, is the fact that he's now a much worse FT shooter.

[KobesAchilles]

Well, I also suggested he might be worse too but you chose not to quote that part for some reason. :lol If you really want to know how I think about this subject you should have stayed with the last part: "likely, he would be about the same anywhere".

You are acting as if Poeltl had somehow improved his game dramatically and that couldn't be further from the truth. He's pretty much the same player he was when he entered the league only with more minutes, more experience and more confidence.

If you told me Poeltl had developed a jumper, or a post up game, or did anything much different than what he used to do then I might be on board with the idea that the Spurs really did something special to develop this guy (like they did with Kawhi's jumper). But as things are I can't claim that because Poeltl isn't showing us anything that he didn't already show in Toronto. If anything, the biggest change, game wise, is the fact that he's now a much worse FT shooter.
But his game has improved dramatically. He actually knows how to play basketball now. It's the small things that he has been coached at. Like I said, keeping his hands up now, going straight up more often, knowing where to be on defense. Knowing where to be on offense. His screens are good yes, but they look even better now that he learned to have a purpose when he sets them. Hs buy in has gone up this year as well. This is all coaching.

[Dejounte]

Well, I also suggested he might be worse too but you chose not to quote that part for some reason. :lol If you really want to know how I think about this subject you should have stayed with the last part: "likely, he would be about the same anywhere".

You are acting as if Poeltl had somehow improved his game dramatically and that couldn't be further from the truth. He's pretty much the same player he was when he entered the league only with more minutes, more experience and more confidence.

If you told me Poeltl had developed a jumper, or a post up game, or did anything much different than what he used to do then I might be on board with the idea that the Spurs really did something special to develop this guy (like they did with Kawhi's jumper). But as things are I can't claim that because Poeltl isn't showing us anything that he didn't already show in Toronto. If anything, the biggest change, game wise, is the fact that he's now a much worse FT shooter.

Disagree. At no point during his limited minutes last year did Poeltl display groundbreaking defense as he's doing now. He has better overall defensive awareness. Keep in mind, I'm not saying that he didn't play good defense last year. He did. But not at THIS level.

[DAF86]

But his game has improved dramatically. He actually knows how to play basketball now. It's the small things that he has been coached at. Like I said, keeping his hands up now, going straight up more often, knowing where to be on defense. Knowing where to be on offense. His screens are good yes, but they look even better now that he learned to have a purpose when he sets them. Hs buy in has gone up this year as well. This is all coaching.

Those are all things he knew how to do in Toronto. In fact, even earlier. "Game instincts" was one of Poeltl selling points coming into the draft.

Great defender, great screener, good roler, good finisher, underrated passer, high IQ. These were all of Poeltl's best attributes and are the same that he has now.

I don't know why are you arguing this, you were the one that admitted to not having watched him play while he was in Toronto.

[DAF86]

Disagree. At no point during his limited minutes last year did Poeltl display groundbreaking defense as he's doing now. He has better overall defensive awareness. Keep in mind, I'm not saying that he didn't play good defense last year. He did. But not at THIS level.

He has always been a great defender. In fact, going by defensive DBPM, this year isn't even his best or second best defensive years. The biggest difference in Poeltl's case is that he has been playing more, so the great defensive impact he has always had is even more noticeable.

[DAF86]

In fact, if you compare the numbers, in terms of efficiency, Poeltl is having arguably his worst season since he got to San antonio. :lol

PER, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP are all worse than the previous 2 years. So much for the narrative of this incredible year of development he's supposedly having. :lol

[Dejounte]

In fact, if you compare the numbers, in terms of efficiency, Poeltl is having arguably his worst season since he got to San antonio. :lol

PER, OBPM, DBPM, BPM, VORP are all worse than the previous 2 years. So much for the narrative of this incredible year of development he's supposedly having. :lol

Bro, the numbers you're using for Poeltl are per 48 (or 36?) numbers for his stronger years. There's a lot of context here missing. You can make Boban look like a superstar with per 48's, but it doesn't mean he is. It's one thing to look great in limited minutes, it's another to do it for extended minutes.

Regardless, this debate is has two overly simplistic angles. It is not true Poeltl's been this great player from day 1 and it is not true that Poeltl is only this great because of Pop. The truth is very likely both or somewhere in the middle.

[DAF86]

Bro, the numbers you're using for Poeltl are per 48 (or 36?) numbers for his stronger years. There's a lot of context here missing. You can make Boban look like a superstar with per 48's, but it doesn't mean he is. It's one thing to look great in limited minutes, it's another to do it for extended minutes.

PER, OBPM, DBPM, BPM and VORP don't make minutes distinction. They just meassure the efficiency of a player, it doesn't matter if he played 5 or 35 minutes.


Regardless, this debate is has two overly simplistic angles. It is not true Poeltl's been this great player from day 1 and it is not true that Poeltl is only this great because of Pop. The truth is very likely both or somewhere in the middle.

Nobody said that though.

[spurraider21]

PER, OBPM, DBPM, BPM and VORP don't make minutes distinction. They just meassure the efficiency of a player, it doesn't matter if he played 5 or 35 minutes
but with larger sample sizes, numbers could even out. ie boban being a PER superstar but in reality, not a very good player

[KobesAchilles]

PER, OBPM, DBPM, BPM and VORP don't make minutes distinction. They just meassure the efficiency of a player, it doesn't matter if he played 5 or 35 minutes.



Nobody said that though.
Yes somebody did say that. I shut down that poster though. And if you didn’t believe then why did you bring up his draft analysis. You were like he was always this good at defense just look at his draft report. That back peddling doe:lol

[DAF86]

Yes somebody did say that. I shut down that poster though.

Link? You can't provide one, because it didn't happen, tbh.


And if you didn’t believe then why did you bring up his draft analysis. You were like he was always this good at defense just look at his draft report. That back peddling doe:lol

Because I wasn't pointing out that Poeltl has always been this good, I pointed out that the strengths he has now are the same he has always had. He was always a good defender that set good screens and rolled to the basket. He now make those things better than in the past because of a natural development process.

[KobesAchilles]

Link? You can't provide one, because it didn't happen, tbh.



Because I wasn't pointing out that Poeltl has always been this good, I pointed out that the strengths he has now are the same he has always had. He was always a good defender that set good screens and rolled to the basket. He now make those things better than in the past because of a natural development process.
tbh I wonder if you know what coaching is. It is schemes and handling egos and leadership and all that stuff but it is also taking a players strengths and improving them. You are literally agreeing that this has Pop’s coaching all over it with every post yet somehow refusing to admit it. It’s a little funny. He was always a good defender, he had the tools, it was his MO out of college. Okay. But none of that matters in the NBA. Jimmer was an elite shooter in college, couldn’t shoot in the NBA due to speed. But Pop took Poeltls strengths from college, improved on them and this is the result. We saw what Poeltl looked like without coaching and guidance to start the season. A fucking mess.And no it wasn’t a “slow start” it was him putting in no effort in the off-season. And all of a sudden his effort level went through the roof. But nope not coaching.

Also it was some guy name ragas saying he wasn’t a scrub his rookie year and was always a good player. When he was a scrub his rookie year. That’s what we call 11th men in the roster. It’s like saying Eubanks isn’t a scrub

[BackHome]

Do not know why you arguing cause it is plain that Poodle is a GOOD defender and a TERRIBLE offensive player. You get what you get and you don't throw a fit - I think he will only show slight improvements to this which is not bad I guess?

[DAF86]

tbh I wonder if you know what coaching is. It is schemes and handling egos and leadership and all that stuff but it is also taking a players strengths and improving them. You are literally agreeing that this has Pop’s coaching all over it with every post yet somehow refusing to admit it. It’s a little funny. He was always a good defender, he had the tools, it was his MO out of college. Okay. But none of that matters in the NBA. Jimmer was an elite shooter in college, couldn’t shoot in the NBA due to speed. But Pop took Poeltls strengths from college, improved on them and this is the result. We saw what Poeltl looked like without coaching and guidance to start the season. A fucking mess.And no it wasn’t a “slow start” it was him putting in no effort in the off-season. And all of a sudden his effort level went through the roof. But nope not coaching.

Also it was some guy name ragas saying he wasn’t a scrub his rookie year and was always a good player. When he was a scrub his rookie year. That’s what we call 11th men in the roster. It’s like saying Eubanks isn’t a scrub

That would be the Raptors. That's the team that transitioned him from college to the pros, tbh.

[DPG21920]

I haven't seen the Dude around much lately, but he was absolutely cliff-jumping off that signing :lol



That whole thread is great to read back in hindsight. SpursTalk will shit on anything and everything, no matter the context...

Still stand by what I said contextually; but thank goodness Pop saw the light and at least unleashed the youth. Was scared he wouldn’t do it. The results have been very fun overall.

[Sugus]

Still stand by what I said contextually; but thank goodness Pop saw the light and at least unleashed the youth. Was scared he wouldn’t do it. The results have been very fun overall.

Come on, seriously? You were cliff-jumping, repeatedly, over what is now apparent (well, it was apparent at the time too for those of us who knew) to be a great value contract, maybe one of the best in the league for starting Cs. At least acknowledge your judgement was rash... Or don't, I don't keep tabs on you, just thought it was funny and obviously wrong at the time :lol

Agree with that though. Much more fun to watch the youth this season. Now, if only he'd stop closing out games with Patty every single time.....

[DPG21920]

Come on, seriously? You were cliff-jumping, repeatedly, over what is now apparent (well, it was apparent at the time too for those of us who knew) to be a great value contract, maybe one of the best in the league for starting Cs. At least acknowledge your judgement was rash... Or don't, I don't keep tabs on you, just thought it was funny and obviously wrong at the time :lol

Agree with that though. Much more fun to watch the youth this season. Now, if only he'd stop closing out games with Patty every single time.....

I was very clear about what upset me about Jakob and it had nothing to do with the player or even the money all that much IMVHO

The fact LMA is gone now makes it look better. LMA being here was one of my main beefs.

[DPG21920]

Come on, seriously? You were cliff-jumping, repeatedly, over what is now apparent (well, it was apparent at the time too for those of us who knew) to be a great value contract, maybe one of the best in the league for starting Cs. At least acknowledge your judgement was rash... Or don't, I don't keep tabs on you, just thought it was funny and obviously wrong at the time :lol

Agree with that though. Much more fun to watch the youth this season. Now, if only he'd stop closing out games with Patty every single time.....


Trade ddr and LMA then I change my tune a lot.

[Sugus]

.

I'm just as excited as you are to not see LMA on the team anymore, but the FO hasn't traded neither of them yet... Save that champagne bottle for later, I don't wanna jinx this :lol