Kevin O'Connor: Spurs Should Have Blown it Up

[LkrFan]

https://twitter.com/N_Magaro/status/1379083467846213638?s=19

Thoughts?

[lmbebo]

He's right...

This should have happened last year. Writing been on the wall for awhile.

[LkrFan]

Original tweet:
https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1379078763904958466?s=19

[mo7888]

https://twitter.com/N_Magaro/status/1379083467846213638?s=19

Thoughts?

He just telling the truth...it's self evident at this point..

[Darius Bieber]

Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. What's the point of being in basketball purgatory? Not good enough to be a playoff team, not bad enough to get a top pick. There's absolutely no hope or faith there.

[MultiTroll]

https://twitter.com/N_Magaro/status/1379083467846213638?s=19

Thoughts?
https://i.imgflip.com/54gbmt.jpg

[NASpurs]

:cry But Pop’s coaching wins

We’re being held captive by some old man’s ego. My dude is Kobe’ing us.

[SpursDynasty85]

It is fair criticism but we have decent talent and a ridiculous amount of cap space. Lots of possible sign and trade deals for our vets are possibilities. Let’s see what they do this off-season. I still say maintaining the locker room is most important when developing young guys and that would be very hard to do if you are trying to lose/tank.

[NASpurs]

It is fair criticism but we have decent talent and a ridiculous amount of cap space. Lots of possible sign and trade deals for our vets are possibilities. Let’s see what they do this off-season. I still say maintaining the locker room is most important when developing young guys and that would be very hard to do if you are trying to lose/tank.

It’s also difficult to get any talent when you’re a small market treadmill team.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

By “blowing it up” the spurs would actually have more wins right now with out eRozan mills and Gay

[sananspursfan21]

Although I don’t disagree, it was a matter of a few weeks ago that these analysts were singing the Spurs praises in the power rankings. It’s pretty easy to say “they should have blown it up” right now. What an against the stream thinker that Kevin O’Connor is, boy...

[SpursDynasty85]

It’s also difficult to get any talent when you’re a small market treadmill team.

Yep which is why Spurs have to show they keep their word when recruiting veteran free agents. Every team says to the these guys "Don't worry, you are an important part and you will play an important role on our team". Spurs have shown that and they have a good reputation among these types of veterans (like Dieng). Nothing you can do about being a small market but undoubtedly SA can only get better as the times go. Not only is SA growing along with Texas in general it will soon merge with Austin and become the Powerhouse market of the state possibly. LOL but that is like 5-10 years down the road.

[ECOV]

ehhhh overreaction. sport writers are sport writers no different from the people here on spurstalk

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Although I don’t disagree, it was a matter of a few weeks ago that these analysts were singing the Spurs praises in the power rankings. It’s pretty easy to say “they should have blown it up” right now. What an against the stream thinker that Kevin O’Connor is, boy...

Exactly. And if by some miracle the Spurs were to right the ship, the "experts" will all reverse course again.



But I do think Pop's overreliance on the veterans is beginning to hurt us. The future is not those guys, and the present really isn't either. I like Gay, and DDR, and Patty, but it's time to move on from all three. Patty is the only one you probably keep, but you hope Pop can use him more in a veteran Steve Kerr role, and not as some sort of sad Manu replacement. Patty playing big hero-ball minutes is cringe-worthy stuff.

I was on the Demar resign bandwagon, but that's only if the Spurs are a team capable of battling for a top 4 seed. Use those dollars for players who can help us long term if we're getting locked into a 7 thru 12 spot the next couple of years.

[Dejounte]

By “blowing it up” the spurs would actually have more wins right now with out eRozan mills and Gay

True. I don't know how we could lose worse than how we have these past few games. The team is "blowing up" already.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The nice thing is that the Spurs probably aren't any worse if they can find some outside shooting and get some decent defenders. Our three vets are probably the team's worst three defenders, and so going to them down the stretch of games only hurts us.

[itzsoweezee]

Lol, this was obvious two years ago. Now watch the front office give Derozan a contract in the offseason

[NK123]

- POP is the one to be blamed. The game has passed him over.
- Teams know now how to play us and Pop just don't have any counters.
- Plus, we just don't catch & shoot. Seems like every play is designed to drive and kick for 19.5 seconds. After that, one of the slashers do something cringy to score or pass to a desperate 3 or a desperate Poeltl floater.
- We have enough talent to win injured teams like Atlanta, Indiana and the Clippers.
- The problem is not enough talent, it's insufficient coaching and adequate rotations.
- Pop don't stick with the players that are showing better production. He only play from his book.
- I've been saying that Pop is the main reason we are not playing well and the major reason Timmy is no longer there helping the team.

- Maybe Aldridge is not 100% wrong for asking to leave.

[Dex]

The nice thing is that the Spurs probably aren't any worse if they can find some outside shooting and get some decent defenders. Our three vets are probably the team's worst three defenders, and so going to them down the stretch of games only hurts us.

At least 2 out of 3 of those vets should be gone next season, otherwise I may be switching to the dark side when it comes to PATFO.

[cd98]

We win by losing competitively. I'd like close games, but I'd also like to lose them to get good draft picks.

[The Truth #6]

By “blowing it up” the spurs would actually have more wins right now with out eRozan mills and Gay

+1. I would add that playing DDR, LMA, Forbes, and Belinelli was playing to lose in my opinion, but the coach was too blind to see it. Things are somewhat better this year, but that's coming from a horrendous starting point. I thought that after Nephew bailed, we should have traded LMA. He probably would have been ok with it. Then when LMA and DDR failed horribly together, as expected, they kept trying to keep them together. It's been one lost opportunity after another. Granted, O'Connor is always pro-tank. We may not be "tanking" now, but we sure as hell are losing. With veterans leading the team too often.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

At least 2 out of 3 of those vets should be gone next season, otherwise I may be switching to the dark side when it comes to PATFO.

I'm right there with you.

[Twisted_Dawg]

Actually the team should of been blown up the summer of Kawhi. Should of taken the best deal from leveraging the Lakers, Clips, and 76ers, and gotten a boatload of picks and young players. Likewise should of traded Aldredge and Green separately that summer as well as they had value as well. After three years of sucking, instead of two, we would have a nice future with a roster of young talented players.

Never should of traded for Derozan. Should've moved Aldredge last summer at the latest. And most recently cut Mills, Gary, and Derozan lose and let them catch on with a contender. We're in this mess because of the decisions of two men.

[LkrFan]

Actually the team should of been blown up the summer of Kawhi. Should of taken the best deal from leveraging the Lakers, Clips, and 76ers, and gotten a boatload of picks and young players. Likewise should of traded Aldredge and Green separately that summer as well as they had value as well. After three years of sucking, instead of two, we would have a nice future with a roster of young talented players.

Never should of traded for Derozan. Should've moved Aldredge last summer at the latest. And most recently cut Mills, Gary, and Derozan lose and let them catch on with a contender. We're in this mess because of the decisions of two men.

I was told downstairs a package featuring Brandon Ingram wasn't good enough. Right now BI >> DeRozan. Pop's purple and gold hatred got the best of him IMO.

[Harry Callahan]

Lest we forget,

Nephew was purposely doing a sabotage of his health situation the entire 2017-2018 season. He was going to opt out of the 2019-2020 season which would result in a one year rental for a guy who could/would only play 60 games out of 82. The teams around the league were NOT offering a great packages with multiple #1 draft picks along with a quality player. Other teams were not going to offer a primo package for a POSSIBLE health risk.

Hindsight (3 Years later) it's pretty clear #2 was never seriously injured - just a semi-chronic case of tendonitis. Never really injured outside of the sprained ankle which healed over the summer of 2017. The Spurs contention that he was never seriously compromised physically seems to be the correct diagnosis. This guy is playing 40 minutes for the Clippers in the regular season which he would not do very often (if at all) in San Antonio.

[R. DeMurre]

Agree with O'Connor 100% here. I don't even use the word tanking... for me it's just a matter of getting valuable playing time & experience for Vassell, Samanic, & others. Just as last season too many of those minutes were taken by Forbes and Beli, who were then let go for nothing... what did that accomplish? Been a fan of the Spurs for a very long time, but can't help thinking it's gone off the rails in the last couple years, with draft decisions being the only bright spot. Letting the most high profile free agent signing in their history walk for zero compensation when a trade in the previous year almost definitely would've brought something was frustrating, and now all of that cap space is sitting there with almost no attractive free agents left. In a way, PATFO look to have a game similar to DeRozan's with one bright spot (drafting) and a bunch of major holes (ability to secure players via trades, ability to attract FAs) that they either can't or won't work on.

[baseline bum]

Should have been blown up in the summer of 2018 when that fucking snake forced his way out of town. Three fucking wasted years that could have been spent getting good draft picks.

[Saitam]

I don't think we should have blown up this roster. Rather than that, we should have moved on from POP as HC, but remaining in the FO, and promoting someone in the coaching staff. Now they are all gone except for Becky. With new HC, we should have started developing the youngsters, still under "The Programm". There's no problem in retainind DDR, Patty or whoever you want, the real thing is that Pop is not as good as he was, too many in-game errors, and the same approach to BB that not atracts good FA. Shoud've mooved on like Riley - Spoelstra did in MIA.

[baseline bum]

I don't think we should have blown up this roster. Rather than that, we should have moved on from POP as HC, but remaining in the FO, and promoting someone in the coaching staff. Now they are all gone except for Becky. With new HC, we should have started developing the youngsters, still under "The Programm". There's no problem in retainind DDR, Patty or whoever you want, the real thing is that Pop is not as good as he was, too many in-game errors, and the same approach to BB that not atracts good FA. Shoud've mooved on like Riley - Spoelstra did in MIA.

Our Spoelstra left to Atlanta in the summer of 2013.

[spurs1990]

At this stage I'll even take DeRozan back for three years if it means Popovich is gone. His act is old and stale

[JuneJive]

Fuck him and his hindsight.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

spurs are 3-7 in last 10

stealth tank is already on tbh

:pop:

[exstatic]

I was told downstairs a package featuring Brandon Ingram wasn't good enough. Right now BI >> DeRozan. Pop's purple and gold hatred got the best of him IMO.

Fuck Magic’s AIDS infected tampering ass.

[exstatic]

At this stage I'll even take DeRozan back for three years if it means Popovich is gone. His act is old and stale

Nah, he just needs to have his pets taken away like Art Howe in Moneyball.

[sananspursfan21]

Exactly. And if by some miracle the Spurs were to right the ship, the "experts" will all reverse course again.



But I do think Pop's overreliance on the veterans is beginning to hurt us. The future is not those guys, and the present really isn't either. I like Gay, and DDR, and Patty, but it's time to move on from all three. Patty is the only one you probably keep, but you hope Pop can use him more in a veteran Steve Kerr role, and not as some sort of sad Manu replacement. Patty playing big hero-ball minutes is cringe-worthy stuff.

I was on the Demar resign bandwagon, but that's only if the Spurs are a team capable of battling for a top 4 seed. Use those dollars for players who can help us long term if we're getting locked into a 7 thru 12 spot the next couple of years.

Yeah I’m kinda tired of seeing so much Gay and Patty. If they’re red hot, that’s one thing but Patty’s cold out there getting 30+ minutes. That’s so aggravating. It would be nice for the vets to leave next year and the young guys be more ready to take the reigns...but what do we know right?

[Chomag]

I have no doubt If Spurs had unloaded all of their vets this team would have been allot better and still competing in the playoffs this year.

Now because of Pop and a incompetent or maybe gutless FO we may be stuck as a treadmill team for a few years.

I thought Pop said that things would be different with a new youth movement yet here we are ... substitute belli/Forbes for patty /gay getting heavy minutes if front of the youth so pretty much nothing changed.

Pop and FO just repeating the same things over and over expecting a different result. This franchise really has become the definition of insanity.

I love this team but man I don't know how much more I can stomach this FO anymore.

[TheGreatYacht]

Spurs are literally the Josh Smith Hawks of a decade ago :lol purgatory for a basketball team. 8-10th seed every year, best player is a career loser, if we do make it to the playoffs it’ll be the “NBA TV” series, god awful attendance, etc

All because crater face wants the win record. Fucking disgusting and I hope more talking heads realize it.

[Chomag]

Benching KJ in OT after being 20 and 10 was so inexcusable.

[tbdog]

Sadly, despite the Spurs having a poor 3 point team and having not one player that can go out and get you a three point shot off the dribble, we are not too shabby on O. But a lineup of White/Murray/Poelt and somehow we are turds on D. That is game plan and not players. I know that DDR is a below average defender, but he isn't a traffic cone. The Spurs second unit is pretty good on O too despite having Mills and Gay being poor defenders. Even the Spurs rebounding is pretty solid too despite playing Johnson as the starting pf.

I just don't see it as the team make up issue. It would have been nice to have used LMA and Lyles contract for something positive, but it terms of the players, I don't see it as the main problem. I see it as a defensive game plan problem. Every game, guards are destroying the Spurs.

In saying that, I think the elephant in the room isn't DDR or Gay. It's actually the Murray and White pairing. White coming back did not boost the team. Spurs got worse. And losing Walker has hurt the Spurs more than we here want to admit it. If DDR does get resigned, there one of White or Murray should be considered to be traded.

[TimDunkem]

Blow it up. It's years overdue.

[slick'81]

No shit

[MannyIsGod]

The spurs are not going to tank. Why the fuck can't people just get that through their head? Kevin o'connor has talked about how good the spurs were earlier this year and now is just writing the opposite cause they're playing like shit. So stupid.

[Ice009]

I was told downstairs a package featuring Brandon Ingram wasn't good enough. Right now BI >> DeRozan. Pop's purple and gold hatred got the best of him IMO.

I agree and have been saying this for a while now. Should have traded him to the Lakers, but other Spurs fans keep telling me you guys never offered any packages with Ingram in them due to thinking you'll just get Kawhi outright during free agency? If so, can't blame them for not trading with the Lakers, but yeah, if a package centered around Ingram and draft picks was discussed, the Spurs fucked up by not doing business with the Lakers IMO.

[RC_Drunkford]

Of course he's right and honestly this drop off shouldn't be surprising. I said 2 months ago that this team has a spacing problem and all you have to do is pack the paint. People here were arguing that this ain't the case, but this was totally predictable with the lack of 3-point shooting on this roster. Especially a HOF coach like Flopovich should know that, but I knew the old man thought this was sustainable

[tbdog]

I agree and have been saying this for a while now. Should have traded him to the Lakers, but other Spurs fans keep telling me you guys never offered any packages with Ingram in them due to thinking you'll just get Kawhi outright during free agency? If so, can't blame them for not trading with the Lakers, but yeah, if a package centered around Ingram and draft picks was discussed, the Spurs fucked up by not doing business with the Lakers IMO.

1. What makes Ingram are better deal than DDR? He is earning more than DDR and his team isn't exactly lighting it up.
2. Lakers wanted Spurs to take Deng.

[Sugus]

Sadly, despite the Spurs having a poor 3 point team and having not one player that can go out and get you a three point shot off the dribble, we are not too shabby on O. But a lineup of White/Murray/Poelt and somehow we are turds on D. That is game plan and not players. I know that DDR is a below average defender, but he isn't a traffic cone. The Spurs second unit is pretty good on O too despite having Mills and Gay being poor defenders. Even the Spurs rebounding is pretty solid too despite playing Johnson as the starting pf.

I just don't see it as the team make up issue. It would have been nice to have used LMA and Lyles contract for something positive, but it terms of the players, I don't see it as the main problem. I see it as a defensive game plan problem. Every game, guards are destroying the Spurs.

In saying that, I think the elephant in the room isn't DDR or Gay. It's actually the Murray and White pairing. White coming back did not boost the team. Spurs got worse. And losing Walker has hurt the Spurs more than we here want to admit it. If DDR does get resigned, there one of White or Murray should be considered to be traded.

Yeah, there's absolutely problems with personnel, but coaching has been bottom-of-the-barrel bad, for some time now. Spurs are playing like less than the sum of their parts now, and they weren't exactly the best parts to begin with. The defensive scheme is archaic at best, and the offensive schemes could use work too. Pop has no feel for lineup changes and the Keldon benching a couple games ago was one example of many, the same as overplaying the same old vets every night (well, not really the "same old", since it was Belinelli filling in that role last season). It's really come to a point where I wonder whether Pop will play just any veteran over our young players, no matter their capacity, just because they have "experience and knowledge" :lol

E: forgot about the last part. Agree - the DJ/White pairing has been pretty underwhelming. But I don't think it's set in stone for them: DeRozan is the true culprit on that starting lineup not working. I mean, neither Dejounte nor White are off-ball players, quite the opposite in fact - then you also put in the starting lineup maybe THE most ball-demanding, off-ball useless player in the entire league? There's simply no way that's ever gonna work out. I wanna see a full season of a DD-less DJ/White backcourt before calling the shot on them.

[RC_Drunkford]

Yeah, there's absolutely problems with personnel, but coaching has been bottom-of-the-barrel bad, for some time now. Spurs are playing like less than the sum of their parts now, and they weren't exactly the best parts to begin with. The defensive scheme is archaic at best, and the offensive schemes could use work too. Pop has no feel for lineup changes and the Keldon benching a couple games ago was one example of many, the same as overplaying the same old vets every night (well, not really the "same old", since it was Belinelli filling in that role last season). It's really come to a point where I wonder whether Pop will play just any veteran over our young players, no matter their capacity, just because they have "experience and knowledge" :lol

E: forgot about the last part. Agree - the DJ/White pairing has been pretty underwhelming. But I don't think it's set in stone for them: DeRozan is the true culprit on that starting lineup not working. I mean, neither Dejounte nor White are off-ball players, quite the opposite in fact - then you also put in the starting lineup maybe THE most ball-demanding, off-ball useless player in the entire league? There's simply no way that's ever gonna work out. I wanna see a full season of a DD-less DJ/White backcourt before calling the shot on them.

the defense turned into garbage once Messina and Udoka left, they came up with all the defensive schemes not Flopovich

[Sugus]

the defense turned into garbage once Messina and Udoka left, they came up with all the defensive schemes not Flopovich

You ain't wrong :depressed

[Spurtacular]

Do they still have the commensurate salary rule for trades?
Because I could see that as being a tough hurdle to clear for dumping Derozan.

[tbdog]

Yeah, there's absolutely problems with personnel, but coaching has been bottom-of-the-barrel bad, for some time now. Spurs are playing like less than the sum of their parts now, and they weren't exactly the best parts to begin with. The defensive scheme is archaic at best, and the offensive schemes could use work too. Pop has no feel for lineup changes and the Keldon benching a couple games ago was one example of many, the same as overplaying the same old vets every night (well, not really the "same old", since it was Belinelli filling in that role last season). It's really come to a point where I wonder whether Pop will play just any veteran over our young players, no matter their capacity, just because they have "experience and knowledge" :lol

E: forgot about the last part. Agree - the DJ/White pairing has been pretty underwhelming. But I don't think it's set in stone for them: DeRozan is the true culprit on that starting lineup not working. I mean, neither Dejounte nor White are off-ball players, quite the opposite in fact - then you also put in the starting lineup maybe THE most ball-demanding, off-ball useless player in the entire league? There's simply no way that's ever gonna work out. I wanna see a full season of a DD-less DJ/White backcourt before calling the shot on them.

DDR is clearly the better player than those two. I don't see the point in trading DDR for a piece that best fits with White and Murray, rather than trading White or Murray to fit around DDR. You have to build around your best player(s). You still have a poor shooting backcourt and a poor shooting front court. Why is it that DDR is the issue here?

IMO, I can see the Spurs/Pop being very aggressive this offseason. They have cap space and they have kept their picks, plus they have starting players on friendly deals (White/Murray/Poeltl/Johnson/Walker).

Spurs will target Sarbonis or Towns. The cost of an allstar quality big man is 1 young player and 2 first round picks. Towns price is higher.

[weeks]

:cry But Pop’s coaching wins

We’re being held captive by some old man’s ego. My dude is Kobe’ing us.

Is this karma for the years we mocked the flakers for this very situation?

[daslicer]

Is this karma for the years we mocked the flakers for this very situation?

We are getting Poppobe'd.

[BlackAndWhite]

How did we exceed expectations in 2018-2019? Was it mainly Aldridge?

[daslicer]

How did we exceed expectations in 2018-2019? Was it mainly Aldridge?

Aldridge was at his peak during those 2 years. We rode him hard which got us into the playoffs both times. He was really that good. The unfortunate part is we rode him too hard that it aged him pretty fast when it came to basketball.

[Teamduncan21]

Aldridge was at his peak during those 2 years. We rode him hard which got us into the playoffs both times. He was really that good. The unfortunate part is we rode him too hard that it aged him pretty fast when it came to basketball.

sounds dirty

[MaNu4Tres]

Should have happened 2 years ago.

Pop and RC overvalue experience and culture because of what the return brought when they applied it to the historic personnel in the Duncan era.

Now they think it matters and will make a difference with DeMar, Patty, Gay because it worked with Manu, Tim, and Tony.

Really can't believe they held on to DeMar, Rudy, Patty, and LMA until their value completely diminished months before they test Free Agency.

I can't stand the thought of knowing Rudy is 2nd on the team in usage while not being able to move defensively, and still not knowing what a good pass means.

[donaldsonian]

When is the last time any significant sign-and-trade deal happened in the NBA? Serious question, it seems like fans hope for them but they almost never happen.

[J_Paco]

Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. What's the point of being in basketball purgatory? Not good enough to be a playoff team, not bad enough to get a top pick. There's absolutely no hope or faith there.

I agree that moving one or two of the veterans should have happened, but tanking for lottery picks guarantees them nothing. The Kings & Timberwolves have had countless lottery picks over the last 10 - 20 years, but only one playoff appearance & a worse record than the Spurs.

They need to acquire a superstar then surround them with quality players.

This implosion hopefully convinces the team that their far, far away from competing and need to find a superstar to surround their current group with.

Possibly moving some of the redundant talent (Johnson, Walker IV and/or Vassell) could help them acquire a missing piece.

[tmtcsc]

I agree and have been saying this for a while now. Should have traded him to the Lakers, but other Spurs fans keep telling me you guys never offered any packages with Ingram in them due to thinking you'll just get Kawhi outright during free agency? If so, can't blame them for not trading with the Lakers, but yeah, if a package centered around Ingram and draft picks was discussed, the Spurs fucked up by not doing business with the Lakers IMO.

They never had to trade him when they did. PATFO blinked. They should've taken it as far as possible, getting the league involved if necessary. He was clearly well enough to play. If he chose to sit out after making his trade demands, then the Spurs could've retained his rights. Pop should've told Kawhi, "Get out there and show everyone you can play & we'll trade you for the best package available." He dogged this franchise so bad.

[PhantomDashCam]

The Spurs had a goal of making the Playoffs this season. For that and their performance to the half way point of the schedule, I applaud their effort and style of play.
However, it’s clear now that we were experiencing this team’s ceiling and now, unfortunately, must live with its floor.

A modest goal such as a playoff participant shouldn’t be so iron clad as to not undergo some rethinking and course correction if the data suggests it’s becoming unobtainable.
This is where the Spurs have a chance to “blow it up” and mitigate the collateral damage.

You could start with more compatible lineups on the floor....Emphasise Defensive accountability...Rest guys who don’t have the “goods” night in/out

Mediocre play usually starts with a lack of effort; not a botched play call or missed rotation. Let’s reward toughness and tenacity - Blue collar endeavours. Gauntlet should be thrown down after the last 2 weeks of “Spurs” basketball. No scenario (benchings, DNPs etc)
should be off limits as we fall further from the initial goal.

If a team’s game plan against you now is : P’nR you to death, transition O opps. (Even off made baskets) and Pack the paint on D, as you’re not shooting/sharing the ball to make them move - you don’t just have a basketball problem anymore, you have work ethic one.

[Teamduncan21]

When is the last time any significant sign-and-trade deal happened in the NBA? Serious question, it seems like fans hope for them but they almost never happen.

Don't expect something significant. If we can get anything. A pick or some serviceable role player. That's probably it

[ElNono]

Should have been blown up in the summer of 2018 when that fucking snake forced his way out of town. Three fucking wasted years that could have been spent getting good draft picks.

This. I thought somebody bumped a 3 year old thread, tbh... that's what this thread should've been.

[ElNono]

I agree that moving one or two of the veterans should have happened, but tanking for lottery picks guarantees them nothing. The Kings & Timberwolves have had countless lottery picks over the last 10 - 20 years, but only one playoff appearance & a worse record than the Spurs.

Of course tanking guarantees nothing. However, staying perennially in the 8th-10th seed does guarantee: 1) you're not going to ring, and 2) you're not going to get good picks to potentially make the turnaround quicker either.

Plus, unlike the Wolves and Kings, the Spurs have a phenomenal FO, right?

The Spurs face another problem, which is what makes getting good picks especially important: they don't have the ability to lure top talent, like they did when they were a championship team.

The big 3 lured guys like Finley, McDyess when they still had something left in the tank. LMA came over after we rang again, coming out of back to back finals, and Nephew looked like the next big thing (and the big 3 were still around).

Sure, we have capspace, but if top talent wants to play somewhere, teams dump contracts and make things work all the time, so that's certainly not a guarantee of anything either.

I completely understand posters like Manny that says the Spurs will never tank, but that also doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

[rankingtear]

When is the last time any significant sign-and-trade deal happened in the NBA? Serious question, it seems like fans hope for them but they almost never happen.

2019. Butler, Durant, Kemba, Brogdon.

[J_Paco]

Of course tanking guarantees nothing. However, staying perennially in the 8th-10th seed does guarantee: 1) you're not going to ring, and 2) you're not going to get good picks to potentially make the turnaround quicker either.

Plus, unlike the Wolves and Kings, the Spurs have a phenomenal FO, right?

The Spurs face another problem, which is what makes getting good picks especially important: they don't have the ability to lure top talent, like they did when they were a championship team.

The big 3 lured guys like Finley, McDyess when they still had something left in the tank. LMA came over after we rang again, coming out of back to back finals, and Nephew looked like the next big thing (and the big 3 were still around).

Sure, we have capspace, but if top talent wants to play somewhere, teams dump contracts and make things work all the time, so that's certainly not a guarantee of anything either.

I completely understand posters like Manny that says the Spurs will never tank, but that also doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

I completely understand that but purely tanking isn't what this team and organization need. They need a superstar, period, or they could wind up like Sacramento or Minnesota. That type of player has been found later in the lottery or outside the lottery often most recently, and we need the Spurs to find one or more.

They had a great front-office, but the current incarnation hasn't had the same luck as when R.C. (mostly) was helming it.

Even drafting the #1 pick doesn't guarantee you'll improve, look at New Orleans (where Zion puts up points but loses) and Minnesota (year 6 w/ KAT & they still absolutely suck) as evidence (again) that high picks alone don't work.

We need high - end or generational talent to get back to a competitive or championship place, but only Doncic has proven he's of that mold (of the last three or so drafts). And even Dallas with a much more aggressive FO, better market size & a talented coach are currently just "treading water" (perennial 7th/8th seed thus far).

I don't care how it's done specifically, but getting a true star(s) or superstar is paramount and acquiring more shooting + defense.

Everything else is crying, pissing, moaning & trolling cause the Spurs are experiencing a lot more of what the rest of the NBA has felt (over the last 20+ years).

[J_Paco]

2019. Butler, Durant, Kemba, Brogdon.

Yeah, the Spurs either need to let DeRozan walk - yes, for "nothing" but it isn't as if he's LeBron bailing on Cleveland (both times) - or facilitate a sign - and - trade that gains them an asset (or two). And as you showed, sign - and - trades still happen and the Spurs could work one or more if need be.

He was having a good season prior to the all - star break, but teams are gameplanning better and attacking his very clear weaknesses (defense, lack of perimeter shooting).

I would rather free up those minutes, touches and experience for Johnson and Vassell. Plus, Keldon is clearly worn down from playing inside (plus the after effects of COVID), we need more size in the starting line-up & need to find a more compatible player (in the draft).

Same thing goes for Rudy (who should've been traded for a 2nd) and Patty (should've been moved for a late - 1st or something).

[duncan2k5]

By “blowing it up” the spurs would actually have more wins right now with out eRozan mills and Gay

Facts

[spurs1990]

I am heartened that the two best teams record wise are Utah (pace for 62 wins) and Phoenix (58 wins), who between them don't have a real upper echelon superstar (top 10 in the league).

Mitchell, Booker, Gobert, Chris Paul are running their shows. Synder is bonafide top tier pro coach. Tbh don't know who Phoenix's coach is off the top of my head but they've got the floor general Paul.

[duncan2k5]

Actually the team should of been blown up the summer of Kawhi. Should of taken the best deal from leveraging the Lakers, Clips, and 76ers, and gotten a boatload of picks and young players. Likewise should of traded Aldredge and Green separately that summer as well as they had value as well. After three years of sucking, instead of two, we would have a nice future with a roster of young talented players.

Never should of traded for Derozan. Should've moved Aldredge last summer at the latest. And most recently cut Mills, Gary, and Derozan lose and let them catch on with a contender. We're in this mess because of the decisions of two men.

I have to take this opportunity to gloat...when I said this back then, damn near the whole board came down on me...but it was very evident...if it were a different team that did this move, we would mock them...you know u made a horrible move when the franchise u made a trade with won executive of the year that same year

[duncan2k5]

DDR is clearly the better player than those two. I don't see the point in trading DDR for a piece that best fits with White and Murray, rather than trading White or Murray to fit around DDR. You have to build around your best player(s). You still have a poor shooting backcourt and a poor shooting front court. Why is it that DDR is the issue here?

IMO, I can see the Spurs/Pop being very aggressive this offseason. They have cap space and they have kept their picks, plus they have starting players on friendly deals (White/Murray/Poeltl/Johnson/Walker).

Spurs will target Sarbonis or Towns. The cost of an allstar quality big man is 1 young player and 2 first round picks. Towns price is higher.
You only build around ur best player if that player contributes to winning...DeMar doesn't do that... building around a 32 year old DeMar Derozan is one of the dumbest ideas I've seen on here in a while...no offense

[duncan2k5]

I completely understand that but purely tanking isn't what this team and organization need. They need a superstar, period, or they could wind up like Sacramento or Minnesota. That type of player has been found later in the lottery or outside the lottery often most recently, and we need the Spurs to find one or more.

They had a great front-office, but the current incarnation hasn't had the same luck as when R.C. (mostly) was helming it.

Even drafting the #1 pick doesn't guarantee you'll improve, look at New Orleans (where Zion puts up points but loses) and Minnesota (year 6 w/ KAT & they still absolutely suck) as evidence (again) that high picks alone don't work.

We need high - end or generational talent to get back to a competitive or championship place, but only Doncic has proven he's of that mold (of the last three or so drafts). And even Dallas with a much more aggressive FO, better market size & a talented coach are currently just "treading water" (perennial 7th/8th seed thus far).

I don't care how it's done specifically, but getting a true star(s) or superstar is paramount and acquiring more shooting + defense.

Everything else is crying, pissing, moaning & trolling cause the Spurs are experiencing a lot more of what the rest of the NBA has felt (over the last 20+ years).
Horrible example with zion...this is second year and he has a chance to make the playoffs...that's like saying lebron doesn't move the needle because he missed the playoffs his first 2 years in the league

[duncan2k5]

I fully agree with the writer, but I'm mad that he wrote it...Pop is a contrarian...and if he senses that ppl think keeping DeMar and the vets and playing them significant minutes is a dumb thing to do, he will be stubborn and double down

[KobesAchilles]

Horrible example with zion...this is second year and he has a chance to make the playoffs...that's like saying lebron doesn't move the needle because he missed the playoffs his first 2 years in the league
Yeah the dude is crying that the 19 year old kid putting up 28 points a game on damn near 70% shooting isn’t helping his team. This is also basically Zions rookie year too bc he missed most of last year with injury. Just another typical Spurstalk take :lol

[duncan2k5]

Yeah the dude is crying that the 19 year old kid putting up 28 points a game on damn near 70% shooting isn’t helping his team. This is also basically Zions rookie year too bc he missed most of last year with injury. Just another typical Spurstalk take :lol

Exactly...lol...besides what does that say about DeMar...he is arguing against blowing it up, but here we are about to miss the playoffs for the 2nd straight year with DeMar leading us

[EasyMoney]

Wasn't kevin Durant signing to the Nets a sign and trade as well?

[KobesAchilles]

Wasn't kevin Durant signing to the Nets a sign and trade as well?
Yeah it was one. Warriors got back D' Russ

[J_Paco]

Horrible example with zion...this is second year and he has a chance to make the playoffs...that's like saying lebron doesn't move the needle because he missed the playoffs his first 2 years in the league

Comparing Zion to LeBron is moronic.

LeBron in his age 20 season put up raw stats of 27, 7 & 7 while the team improved to 42 - 40. Zion in his age 20 season is putting up raw numbers of 26, 7 & 3 while the Pelicans are 22 - 27 for 10th in the West (out of the playoffs in a normal season).

The guy is otherworldly facing up & getting to the basket, but every other part of his game needs to vastly improve (especially defense).

And it isn't just about Zion, but the Pelicans organization also hasn't done a good job surrounding him with complimentary talent thus far. They made similar mistakes with Anthony Davis, so being skeptical of him (on that team) & that organization is valid.

[J_Paco]

Yeah the dude is crying that the 19 year old kid putting up 28 points a game on damn near 70% shooting isn’t helping his team. This is also basically Zions rookie year too bc he missed most of last year with injury. Just another typical Spurstalk take :lol

Are they winning games or in the top 8 of the conference? No and no.

Again, he's otherworldly on offense (especially attacking the basket), but has thus far been a poor defender at the NBA level.

Never said he wasn't talented, he is, but that his presence hasn't yet led to them becoming a winning team. It hasn't and they are literally below the Spurs in the standings, while having a roster not truly suited to his strengths.

[KobesAchilles]

Are they winning games or in the top 8 of the conference? No and no.

Again, he's otherworldly on offense (especially attacking the basket), but has thus far been a poor defender at the NBA level.

Never said he wasn't talented, he is, but that his presence hasn't yet led to them becoming a winning team. It hasn't and they are literally below the Spurs in the standings, while having a roster not truly suited to his strengths.
Um the dude is basically a rookie. To put him in the category of KAT who has played for near 7 years is stupid. Zion is waaaaay better than anybody we currently have. It's like saying Embiid wasn't a franchise player or Giannis or Lebron bc they didn't lead their team to the playoffs their rookie year. It's a stupid statement. If he doesn't make it within two years then sure you can bring it up again and trash talk me to death, but it's way too soon to just say that Zion isn't a franchise layer when he is dominating his first year of playing.

[Ice009]

the defense turned into garbage once Messina and Udoka left, they came up with all the defensive schemes not Flopovich

Do you think David Robinson and Tim Duncan, Bruce Bowen, and Kawhi should get all the praise for the Spurs being one of the best defensive teams over the years during those player's primes? Now that you've bought it up, it's starting to look like Pop isn't even a good/great defensive coach like I thought he was all those years. I'd say he rode a some of the greatest defensive players of all-time into making people think he's a great defensive coach. I do remember Messina bringing a lot to the table in regard to defense and defensive schemes in his time here, so I think he may have been responsible for the Spurs defense after TD left. This just amplifies TD's greatness to me. He was criminally underrated on that end of the court by not winning a defensive player of the year, as he may have been responsible for some of the greatest defensive teams, ever. Bruce Bowen IMO also should have also won at least one too (TD more than one IMO).

I don't know, the way this is playing out is making me feel different about the past and if Pop really was the reason for much of that greatness at all.


They never had to trade him when they did. PATFO blinked. They should've taken it as far as possible, getting the league involved if necessary. He was clearly well enough to play. If he chose to sit out after making his trade demands, then the Spurs could've retained his rights. Pop should've told Kawhi, "Get out there and show everyone you can play & we'll trade you for the best package available." He dogged this franchise so bad.

Yeah, I forgot about all that. I now remember at the time, I wanted the Spurs to make him sit and force him to play. They should have done that. Boost his value up and make teams want to give up a bit more for him, or if he chose to sit out the rest of the cotract, retain his rights (is this what you meant? If he sat out the rest of his contract, Spurs would have had his rights still?).


Um the dude is basically a rookie. To put him in the category of KAT who has played for near 7 years is stupid. Zion is waaaaay better than anybody we currently have. It's like saying Embiid wasn't a franchise player or Giannis or Lebron bc they didn't lead their team to the playoffs their rookie year. It's a stupid statement. If he doesn't make it within two years then sure you can bring it up again and trash talk me to death, but it's way too soon to just say that Zion isn't a franchise layer when he is dominating his first year of playing.

I agree, Zion does have flaws and weaknesses, but he's still basically a rookie, and if those numbers someone mentioned are correct (26, 7, 3), then that is pretty darn good numbers for a not only a rookie, but a player in general.

Also, since Karl-Anthony Towns was mentioned a couple of times in this thread, what would you guys think about going after him? I know a lot of people don't consider him as a player that can vault your team into a Championship contender, but do you think he'd be a better building block then any of the current players on the team, or whoever the Spurs can get in free agency or the draft? Would many here be interested in trading some of the young players plus draft picks for him?

[KobesAchilles]

I agree, Zion does have flaws and weaknesses, but he's still basically a rookie, and if those numbers someone mentioned are correct (26, 7, 3), then that is pretty darn good numbers for a not only a rookie, but a player in general.

Also, since Karl-Anthony Towns was mentioned a couple of times in this thread, what would you guys think about going after him? I know a lot of people don't consider him as a player that can vault your team into a Championship contender, but do you think he'd be a better building block then any of the current players on the team, or whoever the Spurs can get in free agency or the draft? Would many here be interested in trading some of the young players plus draft picks for him?
Towns is a good player who has no idea how to play basketball. He had one year under Cal who doesn’t really teach basketball anymore. And all of his years in Minny did not help the cause at all. Minny has never developed a player before except for KG and that was a different regime. To be fair to Minny, they are aware they have no idea how to develop players which is why they re-signed KG at the end to teach Towns.

The point is that he is a very raw player, who doesn’t bring it every night, has low effort some nights and amazing games the next. His work ethic has been questioned by both KG and Jimmy Butler. He somehow gets bullied as a 7 footer, is horrible at pick n roll defense and not much of a passer at all.

That said, LMA was the same type of player in Portland. And we turned him into all nba defense type of player and a much better passer (still not great). Towns will give you all the offense you want, he can give you a bucket from anywhere on the court. And theoretically pairing him with Poeltl would be amazing as Poe does everything Towns can’t/refuses to do. I mean if we can get him then we should. And figure out the rest later. Idk how the salary of it would work.

[tmtcsc]

the defense turned into garbage once Messina and Udoka left, they came up with all the defensive schemes not Flopovich

Don't forget about James Borrego. He prepared the game plan against the Rockets in the playoff series when Manu blocked Harden from behind in OT of Game 5. Spurs humiliated the Rockets without Kawhi in Game 6 by 30 something points.

[ElNono]

I completely understand that but purely tanking isn't what this team and organization need. They need a superstar, period, or they could wind up like Sacramento or Minnesota. That type of player has been found later in the lottery or outside the lottery often most recently, and we need the Spurs to find one or more.

They had a great front-office, but the current incarnation hasn't had the same luck as when R.C. (mostly) was helming it.

Even drafting the #1 pick doesn't guarantee you'll improve, look at New Orleans (where Zion puts up points but loses) and Minnesota (year 6 w/ KAT & they still absolutely suck) as evidence (again) that high picks alone don't work.

We need high - end or generational talent to get back to a competitive or championship place, but only Doncic has proven he's of that mold (of the last three or so drafts). And even Dallas with a much more aggressive FO, better market size & a talented coach are currently just "treading water" (perennial 7th/8th seed thus far).

I don't care how it's done specifically, but getting a true star(s) or superstar is paramount and acquiring more shooting + defense.

Everything else is crying, pissing, moaning & trolling cause the Spurs are experiencing a lot more of what the rest of the NBA has felt (over the last 20+ years).

No turnaround is going to be quick. There's no "reload" here. Nephew looked good his first season, but nowhere near as good as he looked in season 3+...

But, you simply have a better chance of landing top talent with a higher pick. It's not perfect, and it's not an exact science, but you look statistically at the better players in the league, and they're in the top 10, up to maybe some outliers in the top 15 area if you really want to stretch it.

Obviously, having a competent FO that knows to pick Jordan over Sam Bowie is important as well.

If we were a bigger market, then maybe we could lure talent with capspace and sponsorship deals, but we're not. It's HEB and Taco Cabana. We're clearly at a disadvantage there.

[Ocotillo]

No turnaround is going to be quick. There's no "reload" here. Nephew looked good his first season, but nowhere near as good as he looked in season 3+...

But, you simply have a better chance of landing top talent with a higher pick. It's not perfect, and it's not an exact science, but you look statistically at the better players in the league, and they're in the top 10, up to maybe some outliers in the top 15 area if you really want to stretch it.

Obviously, having a competent FO that knows to pick Jordan over Sam Bowie is important as well.

If we were a bigger market, then maybe we could lure talent with capspace and sponsorship deals, but we're not. It's HEB and Taco Cabana. We're clearly at a disadvantage there.

Meh, you're forgetting Miracle Body and Paint

[duncan2k5]

Comparing Zion to LeBron is moronic.

LeBron in his age 20 season put up raw stats of 27, 7 & 7 while the team improved to 42 - 40. Zion in his age 20 season is putting up raw numbers of 26, 7 & 3 while the Pelicans are 22 - 27 for 10th in the West (out of the playoffs in a normal season).

The guy is otherworldly facing up & getting to the basket, but every other part of his game needs to vastly improve (especially defense).

And it isn't just about Zion, but the Pelicans organization also hasn't done a good job surrounding him with complimentary talent thus far. They made similar mistakes with Anthony Davis, so being skeptical of him (on that team) & that organization is valid.

Don't change the narrative... nobody is saying zion is as good as lebron...lebron was billed as the savior...the chosen one...but he missed the playoffs twice... You judged him because he didn't lead his team to the playoffs... Well judge lebron the same way! Steph Curry also will miss the playoffs this year... I guess he is shit too

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I have to take this opportunity to gloat...when I said this back then, damn near the whole board came down on me...but it was very evident...if it were a different team that did this move, we would mock them...you know u made a horrible move when the franchise u made a trade with won executive of the year that same year

We're a small market team with limited resources. The balance of power in the NBA is shifting to the big markets more than ever. Unless we get another Duncan in the draft this team will suck for a very long time, and even if we score the unicorn in the draft, someone with Duncan's talent, but not his mentality, will likely bolt to greener big market pastures when given the chance.

The Spurs really did all they could in the situation they were in. They'll likely be wallowing in 20-30 win seasons for a decade by going the tank route and might even end up in a different city altogether when all is said in done. You can gloat if you want to, but I think your hatred for the FO drives a lot of your thought processes. When we're in year 4 of complete crap results let's see how good the tank feels. You can always blame the FO when we haven't turned the corner and become successful again. You probably weren't around when the Gervin era ended and we struggled prior to Robinson's arrival, but that level of irrelevance hurts a lot worse than what fans are experiencing now.

I don't fault the Spurs for continuing to try and stay competitive however they could. If DDR had fit in better with LMA, and had LaMarcus kept himself in shape and not had the wheels come off, we would be discussing things differently. Armchair quarterbacks are never wrong, so yeah, nice work.

[Maddog]

We're a small market team with limited resources. The balance of power in the NBA is shifting to the big markets more than ever. Unless we get another Duncan in the draft this team will suck for a very long time, and even if we score the unicorn in the draft, someone with Duncan's talent, but not his mentality, will likely bolt to greener big market pastures when given the chance.

The Spurs really did all they could in the situation they were in. They'll likely be wallowing in 20-30 win seasons for a decade by going the tank route and might even end up in a different city altogether when all is said in done. You can gloat if you want to, but I think your hatred for the FO drives a lot of your thought processes. When we're in year 4 of complete crap results let's see how good the tank feels. You can always blame the FO when we haven't turned the corner and become successful again. You probably weren't around when the Gervin era ended and we struggled prior to Robinson's arrival, but that level of irrelevance hurts a lot worse than what fans are experiencing now.

I don't fault the Spurs for continuing to try and stay competitive however they could. If DDR had fit in better with LMA, and had LaMarcus kept himself in shape and not had the wheels come off, we would be discussing things differently. Armchair quarterbacks are never wrong, so yeah, nice work.

Really good points
Only two teams have won an NBA title since 1980 that where outside the top 10 metro areas - Spurs and Cavs
The Spurs financially do not operate with a significant margin of error and rightly or wrongly feel they may loose their fanbase if prolonged loosing that a full rebuild entails. I'm on the fence about that one. I tend to lean towards blowing it up and taking a chance- but do understand the lack of guarantees and maybe not even a high probability of success.
The Spurs did get the unicorn so speak and he left as you said.
While I'm not enamored of DDR, let's look objectively at that deal.
The only other deal I've seen any remote evidence of being legitimate for Nephew was LAC two firsts (12 & 13) and Tobias Harris. The Spurs would never have been able to re-sing Harris, So basically two drafts picks that have not amounted to much. Not exactly a great draft outside of top 11. Now could they have taken 3 top 20 picks in turned into a top 5- who knows- highly speculative
Is that better than Keldon and Poodle.

[Arcadian]

I mean yeah, franchise is a dumpster fire

[J_Paco]

Don't change the narrative... nobody is saying zion is as good as lebron...lebron was billed as the savior...the chosen one...but he missed the playoffs twice... You judged him because he didn't lead his team to the playoffs... Well judge lebron the same way! Steph Curry also will miss the playoffs this year... I guess he is shit too

Again, look at LeBron‘s numbers and the fact that his team was heading in a positive trajectory (35 - 47 his rookie season to 42 - 40 his second).

Zion hasn't shown that his combination of insane offensive output and porous defense can lead to wins or a playoff berth. Again, it wasn't meant as a knock on just him (or that he won't get to the mountain top), but more so that even getting multiple #1 picks (or top 5 picks) doesn't guarantee a winning team.


That Curry part is just moronic and not even worth a retort...

[J_Paco]

Um the dude is basically a rookie. To put him in the category of KAT who has played for near 7 years is stupid. Zion is waaaaay better than anybody we currently have. It's like saying Embiid wasn't a franchise player or Giannis or Lebron bc they didn't lead their team to the playoffs their rookie year. It's a stupid statement. If he doesn't make it within two years then sure you can bring it up again and trash talk me to death, but it's way too soon to just say that Zion isn't a franchise layer when he is dominating his first year of playing.

Basically a rookie, my ass.

He played last season, looked out of shape, and has been great on offense this year. He hasn't been the instant "franchise changer" & the Pelicans are doing a questionable job building around him (while having multiple top 5 picks on the team).

We just saw a similar situation play out in New Orleans with Anthony Davis, yet I'm the one giving "bad takes" about a guy putting up huge numbers while his team still losses.

[KobesAchilles]

Basically a rookie, my ass.

He played last season, looked out of shape, and has been great on offense this year. He hasn't been the instant "franchise changer" & the Pelicans are doing a questionable job building around him (while having multiple top 5 picks on the team).

We just saw a similar situation play out in New Orleans with Anthony Davis, yet I'm the one giving "bad takes" about a guy putting up huge numbers while his team still losses.
Dude has played 67 games which is less than one season of basketball. Do you even know how many games there are every year? I mean Giannis isn’t a franchise player bc his team didn’t make the playoffs his rookie year. Neither is Lebron. Or James Harden. Or Kevin Durant. Or Steph Curry. Or Dame Lillard. Or Jokic. Or every fucking superstar in the league today except Kawhi bc he was lucky enough to play for us. So yes you have a shitty stupid take

[J_Paco]

Dude has played 67 games which is less than one season of basketball. Do you even know how many games there are every year? I mean Giannis isn’t a franchise player bc his team didn’t make the playoffs his rookie year. Neither is Lebron. Or James Harden. Or Kevin Durant. Or Steph Curry. Or Dame Lillard. Or Jokic. Or every fucking superstar in the league today except Kawhi bc he was lucky enough to play for us. So yes you have a shitty stupid take

Nah, you're too dense to understand my point.

Get back to me once Zion's winning games, the Pelicans are title contenders and making moves that play to his strengths. Or when a team with 3 top 5 picks having a record below .500 is cool cause "it's basically his rookie year."

Guess what, it isn't and the team's win - lose record ain't improving.

And just so you know, most of those guys you referred to as franchise players (where did I say he wasn't or couldn't be one) team's record improved from season one to season two.

[slick'81]

This team is fucking trash

[J_Paco]

This team is fucking trash

Yeah, the team is absolutely terrible currently.

The grueling schedule, lack of shooting/size & inept defense are a recipe for disaster.

[KobesAchilles]

Nah, you're too dense to understand my point.

Get back to me once Zion's winning games, the Pelicans are title contenders and making moves that play to his strengths. Or when a team with 3 top 5 picks having a record below .500 is cool cause "it's basically his rookie year."

Guess what, it isn't and the team's win - lose record ain't improving.

And just so you know, most of those guys you referred to as franchise players (where did I say he wasn't or couldn't be one) team's record improved from season one to season two.

The backpedaling is hilarious. You compared Zion to Towns, a player who has been in the league 7 years. Then you doubled down saying he isn’t basically a rookie when he hasn’t even played a full season of games. But if your shitty point is that drafting a 19 year old doesn’t automatically make you title contenders well no shit Sherlock. Wtf is the point of even saying that. Literally nobody says it does. But it gives you a better shot at becoming one in the future when your 19 year old is clearly better than every other player his age (besides Luka) who also didn’t make the playoffs his rookie year so he’s not a franchise player and Dallas has a shitty future for drafting him according to you bc they aren’t instant championship contenders. You can tell that Lebron was going to be a franchise player. And Luka. And Durant. Some you couldn’t tell like Giannis and Embiid and Dame and Harden. But all these players missed the playoffs. If Zion doesn’t have a better record next year in his year 2 then you would have an actual point. But the dude was hurt and played like 23 games last year.

BREAKING NEWS FROM J-Paco: drafting a transcendent 19 year old doesn’t automatically make you title contenders. You actually have to build a good team around him to win.

[KaiRMD1]

I used to have faith in the front office to think they never needed to blow it up but their luck ran out. Blowing it up is what needs to happen. O'Connor isn't wrong in the slightest

[stephen jackson]

Meanwhile Davis can’t miss a 3

[J_Paco]

The backpedaling is hilarious. You compared Zion to Towns, a player who has been in the league 7 years. Then you doubled down saying he isn’t basically a rookie when he hasn’t even played a full season of games. But if your shitty point is that drafting a 19 year old doesn’t automatically make you title contenders well no shit Sherlock. Wtf is the point of even saying that. Literally nobody says it does. But it gives you a better shot at becoming one in the future when your 19 year old is clearly better than every other player his age (besides Luka) who also didn’t make the playoffs his rookie year so he’s not a franchise player and Dallas has a shitty future for drafting him according to you bc they aren’t instant championship contenders. You can tell that Lebron was going to be a franchise player. And Luka. And Durant. Some you couldn’t tell like Giannis and Embiid and Dame and Harden. But all these players missed the playoffs. If Zion doesn’t have a better record next year in his year 2 then you would have an actual point. But the dude was hurt and played like 23 games last year.

BREAKING NEWS FROM J-Paco: drafting a transcendent 19 year old doesn’t automatically make you title contenders. You actually have to build a good team around him to win.

No, you idiot I said that even drafting #1 and picking a Towns or Williamson doesn't guarantee team improvement.

First, he's only "transcendent" offensively, while his rebounding and defense have been average to poor.

Second, you're intentionally ignoring that he has 2 other top 5 picks, who are both under 25 and they still aren't a serious playoff contender.

Lastly, no where did I claim that he couldn't become a superstar (I said only Luka has shown that he is one and it has led to WINS) or that the Pelicans/Zion will never find a winning formula.

Who gives a shit that he hasn't played a entire 82 games yet. Most rookies from last season needed and this season will need two combined seasons to do so. Why are you stuck on the barometer of "82 games" equals a season shit. Some guys need less time and others more time to adjust to the NBA, period.

He's clearly gotten in much better shape than his rookie season and has adapted quickly on the offensive end.

My point was that him and KAT are tremendously talented, went high in the draft and put up big numbers but the W's are what matter. And that's what the Spurs need talent + W's not just a guy putting up seemingly "empty calorie stats."

Done, and here are two NBA journalists (one which is O'Connor that everyone is admit is right about the Spurs) with similar thoughts:
https://youtu.be/xk2UExlH17E

Your too busy defending the honor and placement of Zion (on some imaginary hierarchy) to notice the many flaws in his game. That if not corrected, he could wind up like KAT putting up numbers but still losing becaise of his poor defense, rebounding effort, etc.

Imagine how much whining, bitching and trolling would go on here if a #1 & two #2 picks didn't lead to near instant success.....

[KobesAchilles]

No, you idiot I said that even drafting #1 and picking a Towns or Williamson doesn't guarantee team improvement.

First, he's only "transcendent" offensively, while his rebounding and defense have been average to poor.

Second, you're intentionally ignoring that he has 2 other top 5 picks, who are both under 30 and they still aren't a serious playoff contender.

Lastly, no where did I claim that he couldn't become a superstar (I said only Luka has shown that he is one and it has led to WINS) or that the Pelicans/Zion will never find a winning formula.

My point was that him and KAT are tremendously talented, went high in the draft and put up big numbers but the W's are what matter. And that's what the Spurs need talent + W's not just a guy putting up seemingly "empty calorie stats."

Done, and here are two NBA journalists with my similar thoughts:
https://youtu.be/xk2UExlH17E

So you found a NY media guy that hyped up his own player. :wow RJ Barrett isn’t even the best player on his own team. Before tonight’s game Zion scored 28, 38, 39, 30, and 34. Zion is averaging 10 more points a game than RJ. Shooting 20% better from the field and has more assists than RJ (who also plays shitty defense!)

The amount of nitpicking here about Zion is ridiculous. You have to go back to Tim Duncan to find a rookie that made all nba defense his rookie year and David Robinson before that. And nobody is arguing Zion is as good as they were as rookies. No rookie is good at defense (and please don’t mention 8 minute a game Vassell). Even rookies whose strength in college was defense suck at it early in their career. The game is much faster, the season is much longer, and the athletes are usually a lot stronger than them too. I will agree though about his rebounding.

Secondly, who gives a fuck about #2 draft picks. Michael Beasley was picked second. Thabeet was picked second. Darko was picked second ffs. Derrick Williams. Stromile Swift. MGK. Hell Bagley was picked over Luka! Lonzo is a bust. He’s outshined by the 29th pick in the very same draft! And Brandon Ingram is your empty calories guy on the team not Zion. And even if you want to say well Zion is all offense and no defense. Here’s a list of players who were that (and still are) Lebron, Steph, Harden, KD, Luka. And none of them scored as much as Zion does so early in their career and at such a good clip. I dare you to find me a 19 year old who scored 26 a game on 62% shooting. Hell give me any player who has ever done it, rookie or no rookie. It hasn’t been done. So this “ “ you put on transcendent looks stupid and if you can’t see that then idk what to tell you

[J_Paco]

So you found a NY media guy that hyped up his own player. :wow RJ Barrett isn’t even the best player on his own team. Before tonight’s game Zion scored 28, 38, 39, 30, and 34. Zion is averaging 10 more points a game than RJ. Shooting 20% better from the field and has more assists than RJ (who also plays shitty defense!)

The amount of nitpicking here about Zion is ridiculous. You have to go back to Tim Duncan to find a rookie that made all nba defense his rookie year and David Robinson before that. And nobody is arguing Zion is as good as they were as rookies. No rookie is good at defense (and please don’t mention 8 minute a game Vassell). Even rookies whose strength in college was defense suck at it early in their career. The game is much faster, the season is much longer, and the athletes are usually a lot stronger than them too. I will agree though about his rebounding.

Secondly, who gives a fuck about #2 draft picks. Michael Beasley was picked second. Thabeet was picked second. Darko was picked second ffs. Derrick Williams. Stromile Swift. MGK. Hell Bagley was picked over Luka! Lonzo is a bust. He’s outshined by the 29th pick in the very same draft! And Brandon Ingram is your empty calories guy on the team not Zion. And even if you want to say well Zion is all offense and no defense. Here’s a list of players who were that (and still are) Lebron, Steph, Harden, KD, Luka. And none of them scored as much as Zion does so early in their career and at such a good clip. I dare you to find me a 19 year old who scored 26 a game on 62% shooting. Hell give me any player who has ever done it, rookie or no rookie. It hasn’t been done. So this “ “ you put on transcendent looks stupid and if you can’t see that then idk what to tell you

Blah blah blah.

I'm done with you, man. I didn't say anything about R.J. Barrett or care to mention that part of the video (it has absolutely no baring on the discussion), but somehow you swing that posting to being about him.

O'Connor's comments about Zion are the only things dealing with our discussion, homie.

It is about Zion, his lackadaisical effort on the glass and defense. Ignoring his obvious flaws and poor team record cause he's "just a rookie."

No. 2 picks don't matter now? So, I guess Kevin Durant doesn't matter or Ja Morant for that matter....

Nah, you've got the dumb ass take my man.

[KobesAchilles]

Blah blah blah.

I'm done with you, man. I didn't say anything about R.J. Barrett or care to mention that part of the video (it has absolutely no baring on the discussion), but somehow you swing that posting to being about him.

O'Connor's comments about Zion are the only things dealing with our discussion, homie.

It is about Zion, his lackadaisical effort on the glass and defense. Ignoring his obvious flaws and poor team record cause he's "just a rookie."

No. 2 picks don't matter now? So, I guess Kevin Durant doesn't matter or Ja Morant for that matter....

Nah, you've got the dumb ass take my man.
Legit only TWO rookies in the past 35 years have been great at defense. That just takes time. And both of them were 23/24 when they came in to the league. Yeah Zion has weaknesses. Duh. He’s also not a great 3 point shooter. But when you have a 20 year old putting up numbers that has never been put up (in a positive way) in league history, well you have a franchise player. NO will start winning. Zion is till green and learning how to play (which is scary) and Van Gundy teams typically do better year 2 than 1. He has a reputation as a slow starter as a coach.

And historically the #2 pick has been a shitty one. It’s why you could only think of two players while I listed 8. Go look it up. Mike Bibby is in the upper echelon of #2 picks since like 96. It’s like KD, LMA, ja, Ingram? Bibby. Then there’s the other 20 years of misses. Idk why, but the number 3 pick is historically better than the #2 pick which has produced 2 franchise players in 30 years.

[Ice009]

Spurs should have blown this shit up with dynamite ;). It gets worse by the day. Bad decisions by the FO IMO.

[Rick Von Braun]

I have not posted in here in many years, but I'll just offer my 2c.

Like in life or business, sometimes the smart thing to do is to recognize the diminishing returns of a situation/market and to take/absorb the losses. Like others have said, when the piece of shit Nephew sabotaged the Spurs and left, it was time to blow up the team. Ship LaMarcus someplace and re-build the team from scratch. If not that year, the next. I was never a fan of DeRozan, and I still cringe when I see him play. Now, it is just too late and the Spurs lost 3 years of good picks. You are not going to rebuild the franchise with the veterans, which are ok but not top quality. This is very different from the situation when we had TD, TP, and Manu trio being old but still very competitive in the last decade. DeRozan, Patty, Gay are not on the same plane basketball-wise. So, should the Spurs have tanked on purpose? It is not in the DNA of the team, and Pop. HOWEVER, you could play competitive games while you develop the young talent that you have. This would have been the smarter thing to do given the circumstances.

Having said this, the fans don't realize how incredible was the Spurs' run in the last 2 decades. For a small-market team, what the Spurs achieved was OUTSTANDING. So even if the Spurs would have done what I said above, it is unclear they would be in a better position today. The Spurs could ideally have 2-3 very young prospects with lots of potential in addition to the young players that they currently have in the best-case scenario. What would be the likelihood that the Spurs could have gotten a Tim Duncan or steal a Manu Ginobili with a 57th draft pick? I would argue close to zero, even in the best-case scenario. The guys in the FO have to weigh not only the basketball considerations but also business decisions for a small-market franchise. What would have happened to all the season ticket holders if the team was in rebuild mode for the last 2-3 years? Could you attract and, perhaps more importantly, retain top talent if you don't have established franchise players and only young talent competing with each other for the next big contract? Very unclear. However, having said all that, I think it was worth the risk. Now the Spurs are in limbo, not good enough to make a deep run in the playoffs, not bad enough to rebuild through the draft.

Nice to see some old-timers still posting here!

Cheers!

[Ice009]

Glad you decided to post even though you haven't for a long time. I enjoyed reading your thoughts on it and you are right on so many points. I guess they could have blown it up, but not sure what the financial ramifications would have been if they had of done that. That is one thing I didn't really think about/consider.

[exstatic]

Blah blah blah.

I'm done with you, man. I didn't say anything about R.J. Barrett or care to mention that part of the video (it has absolutely no baring on the discussion), but somehow you swing that posting to being about him.

O'Connor's comments about Zion are the only things dealing with our discussion, homie.

It is about Zion, his lackadaisical effort on the glass and defense. Ignoring his obvious flaws and poor team record cause he's "just a rookie."

No. 2 picks don't matter now? So, I guess Kevin Durant doesn't matter or Ja Morant for that matter....

Nah, you've got the dumb ass take my man.

He’s not wrong about #2 picks. You may have named the only two good values in the last 30 years. The position has a horrible track record.

[Sugus]

DDR is clearly the better player than those two. I don't see the point in trading DDR for a piece that best fits with White and Murray, rather than trading White or Murray to fit around DDR. You have to build around your best player(s). You still have a poor shooting backcourt and a poor shooting front court. Why is it that DDR is the issue here?

IMO, I can see the Spurs/Pop being very aggressive this offseason. They have cap space and they have kept their picks, plus they have starting players on friendly deals (White/Murray/Poeltl/Johnson/Walker).

Spurs will target Sarbonis or Towns. The cost of an allstar quality big man is 1 young player and 2 first round picks. Towns price is higher.

It's a wild day whenever I agree with Duncan2k5, but he's not wrong in the slightest. There is absolutely no point to trying to build a team around a 32 year old DeMar DeRozan, when he's failed his entire career to make meaningful playoff runs, even when he did have the entire team built and coddled to his specific playstyle, AND he was in his physical prime. It's gonna be downhill for him real fast, both as his body continues to age and his explosiveness wanes, and also as the league further trends away from his archaic playstyle. There is literally not a single worse plan the FO could entail, than re-building the Spurs (and trading away what little young talent the team has) to build around DeRozan.

That said, I'm not advocating towards building around DJ and/or White, specifically, either. Neither have proved good enough to build a team around, we agree there. But getting rid of the dead weight (if you watched the Cavs game, seeing DeMar yet again get his cool 20pts as the team got blown out in the other end by a tanking team is all you need to see) is a must. It's not that DeRozan is the problem because he's a worse player than DJ/DW, which he's not; he's the problem because his fit around the other 14 players on the roster is shit, and every game we're seeing it. He demands the ball entirely, to play inefficient ball, isolates and freezes out his teammates waiting for him to pass out into the perimeter, then shits the bed on defense and brings morale down. Ain't no starting lineup work with someone like that on the team....

Lastly, I wouldn't at all mind trading some youngsters for Sabonis or Towns, both would be great building blocks, even though IDK if the Spurs could ever truly contend with either at the helm. But DeRozan's gotta go either way, tbh.