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Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 10:46 AM
The Spurs need to entice a veteran to accept less money to play for a title like Malone and Payton are doing for the Lakers. Or we need to find two bargains.

One superstar is not going to be enough.

I heard on SportsCenter this morning that the Spurs will try to get Kidd and Mourning to compete with the Lakers upgrades.

That would be terrific.

We need to get two players now.

I'd even take a combo platter of Olowokandi and Odom if that were possible.

How about Kidd and PJ Brown?

Someone has to give us a break.

The other alternative is getting Kidd and packaging up Parker in a trade.

One new acquisition will not be enough now.

:cooldevil

Jimcs50
07-09-2003, 10:54 AM
Why can't we call Payton, offer him the 8 million and totally screw up LA's plans?

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 10:58 AM
Courtesy of ESPN Insider:

*&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Kidd's decision could get complicated: Is Jason Kidd leaning toward signing with the Spurs? Depends on who you believe. The New York Times, citing three unidentified sources, claims Kidd is leaning toward San Antonio.


"The Nets are deeply concerned," a source told the Times. "Every effort on earth will be made to retain him." Nets officials were expected to meet with Kidd on Tuesday night. However, Rod Thorn didn't sound as concerned as the report makes it sound.

"At the end of the deliberations, as the case may be, the pomp and circumstance will take backseat to the substance," Thorn told the Times. "That's where the Kidds will make their decisions. He obviously knows that we would like to have him."

At issue? Which team gives Kidd the better shot at a title? With the Lakers now ready to field a Dream Team and the Kings and Mavs already built like a brick house, there's a chance the Spurs won't even reach the Western Conference Finals next year.

In the East, things are clearer. The Pistons look to be very tough again next year, and the Pacers still have a ton of young talent, but with Kidd, the Nets clearly would be the favorites to win the East.

Kidd's close relationships with Richard Jefferson and Kenyon Martin also play a part in the decision. As does a strained relationship with head coach Byron Scott. But so does the Spurs' style, which favors Tim Duncan making most of the decisions with the basketball.


League sources have maintained for weeks that ultimately Kidd will return to the Nets.

The decision may come down to who else the Spurs could bring in. Assuming Kidd and Duncan both get max deals and the salary cap is set at $42.5 million next season, the would have roughly $3 million left to sign another free agent. Would that be enough to lure a top veteran like Alonzo Mourning or P.J. Brown?

Brown was in San Antonio on Wednesday and seemed torn between taking less money to play for the Spurs and taking care of his family long term. Unlike Payton and Malone, he hasn't been earning tens of millions every year.

"This is a very important contract for me and a very important stage of my career," Brown told the San Antonio Express News. "This could be the last time I sign a contract. I have to look at it from two ways: trying to find a team where I can win a championship; and doing the best thing family-wise."

If Kidd decides he wants to be a Spur, don't be surprised if the Spurs and Nets start talking sign-and-trade. Because the Spurs are well under the cap, they can acquire Kidd and send back much less salary in return.

A sign-and-trade sending Kidd to San Antonio for Tony Parker and Bruce Bowen, for example, would give the Nets a dynamic young point guard to replace Kidd and would clear roughly $8 million in cap room in New Jersey this season and another $4 million after the 2004 campaign. The deal also would give the Spurs an extra $4.5 million to play with under the cap. Combine that with the roughly $3 million they'd already have, and the team could afford to add another solid free agent like Rasho Nesterovic, Brown or Mourning.


If that happened, Nesterovic could be the guy. The Spurs like his ability to face the basket and play in the high post. If they can get him enough money, Nesterovic is inclined to bolt Minnesota. He doesn't have the best relationship with coach Flip Saunders and really wants to be in San Antonio.
Bingo.


I'd love to see this happen. We can still compete with the Lakers given a trade of Parker and Bowen to NJ for Kidd. Check it out:

PF Duncan
SF Jackson
C Mourning/Brown/Nesterovic
PG Kidd
SG Ginobili

PF Rose
PG Kerr


And I don't want to hear any crying about trading Parker. It may be our only alternative at this point!




:cooldevil

CosmicCowboyXXX
07-09-2003, 11:02 AM
I really like Zo's game and characterwise he would be a perfect fit on the Spurs but I really question his ability to play at his former level again...NBA players run on anti-inflammatories when they are crunching through a hundred game season with lots of back-to-backs...can a big guy really be effective battling in the post night after night when he can't take anything for the aches and pains?...

Bandit2981
07-09-2003, 11:05 AM
are you kidding? we cant trade bowen, he's the reason kobe didnt drop 50 on us every night

Whottt
07-09-2003, 11:07 AM
Don't forget to trade Parker for Kwame Brown.

That'll get us a title this year.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 11:07 AM
Mourning came into the league the same year as O'Neal and we have to hope he is well-rested after taking time off from the game to deal with his ailment. If there's a physical specimen in th emold of Robinson at center — it's Mourning. And given the other options of Brown or Nesterovic, I think Mourning would be the better candidate to accept $3-4.5 million to win a ring with us.

It's time for the Spurs to catch a break or make something happen.

We can get get Kidd and a center now. Where I thought that would be next to impossoble, I think the Lakers moves will actually open things up for the Spurs.

I feel it.




:cooldevil

scott
07-09-2003, 11:07 AM
Gotta agree with Bandit. Trading Bowen is not a good way to try to keep up with LA.

Jimcs50
07-09-2003, 11:10 AM
No way we trade our best defender. Zo would be a risky proposition, better to take a sure thing like PJ, Nesterovic or Miller. Although, nothing is sure in life, so Zo might very well be the choice.

Bandit2981
07-09-2003, 11:12 AM
i dunno, im not so sure about mourning...we saw sean come back and he really was never the same again...i'd hate for the spurs to gamble and have him get ill or really struggle, meaning we basically only signed kidd and no big man other than what was left after dave. i hope PJ comes, his style and attitude would fit right in, and he aint afraid to bang with shaq or malone

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 11:13 AM
You guys are obtuse.

Whott, Kwame Brown will be a force soon enough. Please take Parker's French crueller out of your mouth and come up with some solutions of your own, b1tch.

If it's between keeping Parker and Bowen or getting Kidd and a center, I'll live with Jackson defending Bryant. You people act like Bowen shut down Kobe or something. Bowen wasn't even on the floor in the 4th quarters, thank Pop.

Do you people understand who the Lakers have added? We barely got by them this year with just Shaq and Kobe!

Get a grip!


:cooldevil

Jimcs50
07-09-2003, 11:14 AM
Jax would be Kobe's bitch, if Kobe is not some big fucker's bitch in prison next year. :)

kohai
07-09-2003, 11:14 AM
Anybody remember the last series we played against LA, sans Bowen? 2001? Asswhipping? Is this ringing any bells?

PJ needs to talk to Bowen to find out how Pop takes care of his own. He could sign on the VERY cheap, and get the MCE next year, or a chunk of it, a la Bowen.

pseudofan
07-09-2003, 11:15 AM
Ghost,

Why would you make an aquisition for a player knowing he is phisically ailing.......and "HOPE" he is better and well rested.?

Normally you're pretty intelligent....but that assinine comment almost made me spit out my bran flakes!!

That's just not good business practice to HOPE.

You HOPE it doesn't rain.
You HOPE you get a raise.
You HOPE you don't get a ticket.

YOU DON'T HOPE ZO IS WELL ENOUGH TO PLAY WHAT YOU'RE PAYING FOR HIM!

Wow...

CosmicCowboyXXX
07-09-2003, 11:16 AM
Plus Zo is almost guaranteed to go to Dallas. Cuban is the only one crazy enough to offer him a four year guaranteed contract. That scenario guarantees him a trip deep into the finals and he gets paid too...

scott
07-09-2003, 11:17 AM
Great, so not only would we have Shaq putting up 40 on us for the first time in 5 years because he'll have Zo and Malik Rose guarding him; we'll also have Kobe Bryant putting 50 on us because he's being guarded by Stephen Jackson.

pseudofan
07-09-2003, 11:19 AM
Yep, and don't forget GP's 44 per game too!

scott
07-09-2003, 11:21 AM
Well, Kidd has proven he can hold Gary Payton to 18.5 points and 8.7 assists in the playoffs... so I guess everything will be okay.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 11:25 AM
My solution is simple Ghost...

We already used the transition to great effect VS LA last year. It will be even more effective against them this year IMO.

Blowing 90 million on Kidd is not going to do to our running game what you think it will.

Because you can't do nothing but run..especially with no guys who can spot up on the run other than Jax.

You still need to be able to hang with LA in half court O.

The Solution: Get a defensive big the best one we can get..and then get shooters. Piaktowski, Reggie Miller, Robert Horry..Keep Kerr..Keep them on the bench..

Parker is the PG we have that might have a chance of out playing GP with his offense, not Jason Kidd.

Parker's O becomes even more important with what the Lakers have done.

There are players I would trade Parker for but, if it's gonna be a project they better give us a lot of draft picks to go with the project.

Parker is a natural fast break player. Giving him up weakens our break. Again we see Parker is getting punished for doing something well..because he managed to be pretty successful in our half court offense people are now forgetting that he wants to run, and that would be his choice if he had one. Much like everyone has forgotten all he wanted to do when he became a starter last year was Pass.

Like I say, you are in here crowing about running on LA..and dumping Parker in an attempt to do it..like RudyT said..Parker is a one man fast break. Drop the leash on him and he won't need anyone to finish it for him.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 11:29 AM
You guys are fvckin' losers.

$3 million may be enough to "gamble" on Mounrning.

Did you ignore the part about PJ Brown or Nesterovic for $4.5 million if Bowen and Parker are traded to the Nets?

Kobe still got his off of Bowen. The difference this past season is that the Lakers got absolutely nothing from anyone outside of their Big Two.

Now they have a Big Four and you pvssies want to stay pat.

Brwon and Mourning are good low post defenders.

Nesterovic is weak, but he does have a face-up game that can draw Shaq away from the hoop.

We don't need Parker anymore if we get Kidd.

Bowen's defense on Kobe is overrated.

You have to give to get.

I'm waiting to hear all of your brilliant ideas on how to improve.



:cooldevil

scott
07-09-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Ghost Writer:

Bowen's defense on Kobe is overrated.

Thanks for participating.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 11:37 AM
Hey @ssh0le — how did Bowen's defense on Bryant do the playoffs before last?

The difference was no one else stepped up for the Lakers.

We could put Jackson in there next season and let Kobe score 25-35 PPG on him.

You have to give to get, son.

Please offer some solutions of your own, scott.

:cooldevil

Archie
07-09-2003, 11:37 AM
I think that the Spurs would have more than $3 mil left over after signing Kidd to a max deal.

I wouldn't give up much to get Mourning. There are too many question marks about his health and if he's unable to take anti-inflammatories there are going to be problems. Let's not forget what happened to Elliott in his first full season back once he got to the playoffs.

PJ Brown would be ideal should the Spurs get Kidd. As others have pointed out, losing Bowen would hurt the Spurs versus LA. Plus you would be shipping out Parker as well.

Bowen doesn't fit long term but he certainly fits short term. If it came down to moving Bowen gets Kidd to SA then that is a hard pill to swallow. But you have to do what you have to do in that case.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 11:37 AM
I am waiting to hear the pro Kidd's(or semi pro in your case) justification on their rhetoric of how we should get Kidd because you always add talent if you can...

While at the same time wanting to give up one of our most talented players for a stiff.

Contradiction much?

Some of ya'll are starting to sound cracked...Let's see... we have the player with the best post up moves in the game, a player who is still going to draw a double team..so let's become a full time running team.

We have the fastest player in the league so let's dump him to improve our break.

I am confused. I just don't get it. But carry on..I am amused if nothing else.

Archie
07-09-2003, 11:40 AM
What's the fucking alternative, Whottt? Either you improve your team or you stick your head in the sand.

Bandit2981
07-09-2003, 11:42 AM
hell, why dont we just cancel the whole fucking season right now? its obvious no one can even compete with the lakers' addition of a 35 and 40 year old, our 2 time MVP and champ is no match for that. lets just end it all already, give them the damn rings, and show re-runs of the whole 3-peat over again and avoid embarrasing every other team and player in the league for even trying to interfere with destiny :flipoff

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 11:42 AM
That's fine, Archie. I argued against getting Mourning with timvp just two weeks ago, but now I am obviously open to any and all options.

PJ Brown's statements make him seem interested in coming to the Spurs and ESPN Insider states that Nesterovic loves San Antonio.

I question Nesterovic's defense, but he can draw Shaq out of the paint with his offensive skills.

I've never been a big Bowen backer. Yes, he does an excellent job defending Kobe, but Brynat has always been able to score when he's needed to. I'm ready to start Jackson at the SF and Ginobili at the SG so we can try and outscore the Lakers perimeter players instead of trying to stop the unstoppable.

Dopes like scott think we can match the Lakers moves by giving up nothing.

We can compete with the Lakers, but we can't be scurrred anymore.




:cooldevil

Bandit2981
07-09-2003, 11:44 AM
I'm ready to start Jackson at the SF and Ginobili at the SG so we can try and outscore the Lakers perimeter players instead of trying to stop the unstoppable.
umm, sorry but he don nelson strategy wont win you championships

kohai
07-09-2003, 11:47 AM
Bowen's defense on Kobe is overrated.
This may be your worst take ever, and that's saying a LOT.

Bowen vs Kobe 35pts 31 shots 0 assists

Jax vs Kobe 35pts 20 shots 10 assists - Laker role players go crazy.

Bowen makes Kobe a selfish player by making him work for his points, and fixate on the rim instead of his teammates.

scott
07-09-2003, 11:51 AM
Let's see what Bowen's overrated defense did against Kobe in the playoffs...

Game 1: 37 points, 16-38 (42.1%) FG, 2 Ast, 4 Reb, 5 TO

I have a feeling Bowen's 2 blocks and 1 steal also played a role in that stat line.

Game 2: 27 Points, 9-24 (37.5%) FG, 1 Ast, 6 Reb, 5 TO

Game 3: 39 points, 10-23 (43.5%) FG, 17-19 FT, 4 Ast, 4 Reb, 4 TO

Game 4: 35 points, 10-24 (41.7%) FG, 14-17 FT, 3 Ast, 7 Reb, 2 TO

Game 5: 36 points, 15-31 (48.4%) FG, 6 Ast, 7 Reb, 4 TO

Game 6: 20 Points, 9-19 (47.4%) FG, 6 Ast, 2 Reb, 7 TO

Kobe put those numbers up against an All-NBA Second Team Defender- and the national media was applauding Bowen for his defense on Kobe.

I wonder how Jackson, who was benched several times in the playoffs because of his poor defense, would do.

If you think we'd be okay with Jackson's ole defense guarding Kobe, you are a bigger balla homer than we thought.

kohai
07-09-2003, 11:55 AM
I'll say it flat out: I don't care who we sign, Jermaine O'Neal, 'Zo, whoever. If we don't have Bowen, we don't beat the Lakers, period.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 11:55 AM
Give it up Scott..these guys don't remember that far back.

They don't remember Kobe being a one man wrecking crew in every phase of the game against us before Bowen arrived.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 12:02 PM
khoai, where did you get the line for Jackson guading Kobe?


Wow, scott, am I impressed. Bowen "held" Bryant to 28 PPG on 43% shooting and an average of 6 TOs as the primary ballhandler for the Lakers.

Remarkable job of shutting down Bryant by Bowen. :rolleyes


Bowen's defense on Kobe is overrated by you Spurs homers.

When will you people realize that trying to stop Kobe or Shaq is impossible?

You're better off trying to stop the Lakers other player, which the Spur sdid this past playoffs and were successful with.

Bowen was here in 2001-02 and his defense didn't stop Kobe and the spurs didn't win.

The difference this year was that no one else stepped up for the Lakers.


Get that through your heads.


You guys cans tick to this clusterfvck:

PF Duncan
SF Bowen
C Rose
PG Kidd
SG Parker

SG Ginobili
SG Jackson
C Willis
PG Kerr

I'll take my chances against LA with:

PF Duncan
SF Jackson
C Mourning/Brown/Nesterovic
PG Kidd
SG Ginobili

PF Rose
C Willis
PG Kerr


You have to give to get, people. This is Bruce Bowen, we're talking baout — not Jamal Mashburn or Paul Pierce for krissakes. The Nets probably wouldn't even want Bowen in a sign-and-trade if they weren't getting Parker, too.

:cooldevil

scott
07-09-2003, 12:03 PM
If we are talking ideas about what to do if (when) we sign Kidd- I'm all for it. But I only want to hear ideas that make us better.

PG: Kidd
SG: Manu
SF: Jackson
PF: Duncan
C : Mourning

Bench: Rose, Kerr, ?

gives us no better chance at beating the Lakers than:

PG: Parker
SG: Jackson
SF: Bowen
PF: Duncan
C : Mourning

Bench: Rose, Manu, Kerr, ?

And the first line up sacrifices cap room for 6 years.

If we are going to pay the marginal costs of aquiring players, it damned well better make us a better team than the most obvious alternative.

scott
07-09-2003, 12:05 PM
Wow, scott, am I impressed. Bowen "held" Bryant to 28 PPG on 43% shooting and an average of 6 TOs as the primary ballhandler for the Lakers.

Remarkable job of shutting down Bryant by Bowen.


Bowen's defense on Kobe is overrated by you Spurs homers.

When will you people realize that trying to stop Kobe or Shaq is impossible?

You're better off trying to stop the Lakers other player, which the Spur sdid this past playoffs and were successful with.



You are right Ghost... what was I thinking- we are much better off letting Kobe average 45 points on as many shots. What was I thinking!?!?!?

spurster
07-09-2003, 12:06 PM
In the last 3 years, Mourning has played 13, 75, and 0 games. His ailment is not a basketball injury that the trainers can work on. To me, that makes him a last resort.

Bowen is not overrated. The Spurs beat the Lakers because they avoided doubling Kobe and Shaq. If other teams could avoid doubling Duncan and keep him to his usual stats, that would go a long ways toward beating the Spurs. But Manu and SJax did almost as well on Kobe.

Trading Parker and Bowen? Then you have lost 3 starters from your championship team. Because the Spurs probably lose Claxton, too, that becomes 4 players out of the 8-man rotation. Not a bad idea if you are that desperate.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 12:12 PM
Wrong.

Kidd's superstar status trumps anything Bowen and Parker could give that second scenario.

Suppose Bowen "holds" Kobe to his typical 28 PPG and scores his typical 10 PPG. I would think Jackson could relinquish 35 PPG, yet score about 15 PPG. Plus he could make Kobe work on the other end. Moreover, Popovich might elect Ginobili to guard Bryant.

The point is that there's no way Kobe will score 45 PPG, scott. Who are the defensive stoppers that the other playoff teams have thrown at Kobe? He's never broke 40 PPG.

And do you really expect Kobe to score over 30 PPG sharing the ball with Shaq, Malone and Payton?

You still are ignoring my point that Bowen on Kobe only worked this season when the Spurs finally figured out the key is stopping the other Lakers. Address my fact-based logic for once, coward.

You stand pat and I'll take my chances with Kidd and a center, even if it means trading the almighty Parker and Master Bruce.

P.S.

Please also include Brown and Nesterovic in your center projections.


:cooldevil

scott
07-09-2003, 12:16 PM
You still are ignoring my point that Bowen on Kobe only worked this season when the Spurs finally figured out the key is stopping the other Lakers. Address my fact-based logic for once, coward.

The reason the Spurs were able to figure out how to stop the other Lakers is BECAUSE they didn't have to worry about Shaq or Kobe. When we have Zo guarding Shaq and Jackson guarding Kobe, we no longer are able to concentrate on stopping the other players. Shaq will require double teams, as will Kobe. That leaves the newly aquired Karl Malone and Gary Payton open to murder us.

Do you even watch basketball, or are you just a fan of team jackets?

NCaliSpurs
07-09-2003, 12:18 PM
Sean Elliot missed a lot of games because of his knee and the number of years in the league caught up with him. His illness really didn't side-line him his last year.

Zo' may be a risk, but if his kidnieys can hold up, then he will be a force inside.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 12:18 PM
Arrgh it's driving me mad....

What does Kidd do to key the break 75% of the time? Does he run the ball down there himself?

Noooooooooooooooo

He outlets to a sprinting teamate...

Who do you think is going to be able to win that sprint more often than not?

Tony Parker?

Or anyone else in the NBA?


What is the greater talent? Throwing the ball to the guy down there? Or being the guy who can get down there quicker than any team in the NBA?

Anyway..you're gonna be in for a rude awakening if you try to run on Dallas or Sac so I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket if I were you.


And holding Kobe top 28ppg on 43% shooting is a total shutdown performance compared to what Elliot and Daniels did against him a few years ago where he averaged about 35ppg on 50% shooting to go with his 8 or 9 rebounds per game.


I give up...

scott
07-09-2003, 12:18 PM
Kidd's superstar status trumps anything Bowen and Parker could give that second scenario.

I can see it now. The refs will stop the game and tell Kobe he isn't allowed to score 40 on us because we have a second superstar on our team now.

Sorry Kobe, you got trumped!

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 12:42 PM
scott, when has Kobe ever averaged 40 PPG in a playoff series?

Why didn't the Spurs win with Bowen here the playoffs before last?

Is it forseeable that Kobe will score less with Payton and Malone on board?

Could Jackson/Ginobili's offense equate to Bowen's defense on Kobe?

How do you propose we get Kidd and a center?

Are you a fvcking @ssh0le or do you just play one in Fan Forums?


Questions.

:cooldevil

Whottt
07-09-2003, 12:45 PM
We may have lost with Bowen last year but we also weren't swept and blown out by 20ppg.

We had a double digit lead against them in every game going into the 4th.

Bown impacted Kobe's ability to take over a game. Kobe wasn't a wrecking crew on offensive glass and rebounds and the like once we got Bowen. And he needed more shots to get his points.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 12:54 PM
Whott, Bowen can't stop Kobe. No one can. The differnce was that our supporting cast outperformed their supporting cast this time around.

Kobe never averaged 35+ PPG with anyone guarding him before in the playoffs, so I doubt that would start now, especially with him sharing the ball with Malone and Payton.

Bowen "held" Kobe to 28 PPD. Pop forbid we yeild 30 PPG with Jack/Ginobili, yet score an extra 5 PPG with either of them on offense.



scott, when has Kobe ever averaged 40 PPG in a playoff series?

Why didn't the Spurs win with Bowen here the playoffs before last?

Is it forseeable that Kobe will score less with Payton and Malone on board?

Could Jackson/Ginobili's offense equate to Bowen's defense on Kobe?

How do you propose we get Kidd and a center?

Are you a fvcking @ssh0le or do you just play one in Fan Forums?


Questions.

:cooldevil

Archie
07-09-2003, 12:59 PM
Depending on who's available as far as bigmen go I don't exactly see the need to run Bowen and Parker out. You would have just added Kidd to this team and you have $3.8 million in cap room to help you find a starting big. Hell, everyone thinks that Malone is going to LA but maybe he decides that he could have more of an impact in SA? He's not my first choice but the Spurs have been in touch with him since the start of free agency.

scott
07-09-2003, 12:59 PM
scott, when has Kobe ever averaged 40 PPG in a playoff series?

When has Kobe ever had a Stephen Jackson guarding him for an entire game? The answer is never, because there isn't an NBA coach stupid enough to do this. When teams have an inferior defender on Kobe, they resort to doubling him. This is exactly what the Spurs would have to do. This of course leaves other players open to kill the Spurs, which exactly what you propose we stop. When you leave Kobe to go one-on-one against Stephen Jackson all game, you are just begging him to post a career playoff series on you.


Why didn't the Spurs win with Bowen here the playoffs before last?

Simply put, because the Spurs weren't good enough. Steve Smith was our starting shooting guard, and he decided to spend the playoffs somewhere else. David Robinson was probably in the worst physical condition of his career that season, and guys like Terry Porter and Danny Ferry were significant bench players.


Is it forseeable that Kobe will score less with Payton and Malone on board?

Right up until Kobe sees that he has Stephen Jackson guarding him one-on-one every play.


Could Jackson/Ginobili's offense equate to Bowen's defense on Kobe?

When Kobe was on Parker last season (and Parker was having nice performances vs. LA, one of the few Spurs outside of Duncan who had a nice playoffs in 01-02), it didn't slow Kobe down. It was still Bowen's hassling Kobe doing all the work. Jackson is best when spotting up and moving without the ball- something that is more about finesse than athleticism. Defending this isn't going to expend as much of Kobe's energy as you think. If you've ever seen Kobe struggle against Bowen (which is questionable given some of your assinine comments), you'd know that Bowen makes him work extremely hard- much harder than anyone will make him work on the other end of the floor.


How do you propose we get Kidd and a center?

I don't know... we could just sign one with the money that we already have available. Zo, PJ Brown, etc. What is the extra 4.5 million going to get us? Kandi, Rasho, BMiller? Are those guys a big upgrade over Zo or PJ? Enough of an upgrade that you are willing to give up your best man-to-man defender?


Are you a fvcking @ssh0le or do you just play one in Fan Forums?

I'm actually quite amiable when not faced with a constant barrage of stupidity. Its no coincidence that you don't often see that side of me.

kohai
07-09-2003, 01:02 PM
With Tower Power in 2001, but no one to stay in front of Kobe, we got blown out in every game.

With effectively NO center in 2002 (limited David for only 2 games) the Spurs were in EVERY game, and really only needed some one to hit a FUCKING SHOT to take out the Lakers in 2002.

In 2003, with David on board, but still somewhat limited, the Spurs take out the Lakers. The emergence of Jack and Manu, along with the vet presence of Kerr, put them over the top.

David's totals for the series:
6 games 126 mintues 35 points 34 rebs 3 stl 4 blk

Bowen was the big difference between the horror of 2001 and the competitive series of 2002/ the takeout of 2003.

bigzak25
07-09-2003, 01:03 PM
Guys guys guys...

i too don't want JK here, but the decison has to be made to acquire the best talent this year or hold pat and see what's up next year.

obviously, the FO is pushing for JK. but i'm not gonna go into pouting mode and do something STUPID like trade tony parker and bruce bowen for an AVERAGE bigman. I'll take my chances with malik and willis if that's the case.

If JK comes, we just need to cross our fingers that PJ or Zo comes too. Then it's decision time regarding Jax and shooters....and we NEED at least one clutch shooter.

Jax is a good defender...his long arms help him out there...but expecting him to clamp down like bowen on the Kobe's and Finleys of the world...you must be joking....we can live with that in spots, but to depend on it is suicide.

Archie
07-09-2003, 01:10 PM
Exactly zak. Spurs will have $3.8 mil in cap room after Kidd would sign (assuming a $42.5 mil cap) to pursuse a free agent big.

No need to ship out your talent just for crap.

DuffMcCartney
07-09-2003, 01:10 PM
Bottom line is if Jermaine doesnt come then we focus our attention to Brad Miller. He is probably better than any of the other guys out there other than Jermaine and Brand.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 01:39 PM
:sleep


Unbelievable.

So Bowen is untouchable, because he can hold Kobe to 28 PPG, while either Jackson or Ginobili would yeild 45 PPG to a player who's never cracked 35 PPG in a playoff series and would have to be sharing the ball with Shaq, Payton and Malone next season.

You're right, scott.

Keep Bowen at all costs. Who needs extra cap room to add a better center next season anyway?



:cooldevil

scott
07-09-2003, 01:43 PM
What better center? That's half the point, genius. Try reading.

The marginal benefits of whatever center we can get with the extra money from trading Bowen are exceeded by the marginal costs of losing Bowen.

We can get rid of Bowen to make the massive upgrade from Zo/Brown to Kandi/Rasho. That upgrade is not worth your best defender. If getting rid of Bowen gave us money to sign a Jermaine O'Neal or Elton Brand, it would be worth it.

In this market, 4.5 million extra to sign a big man doesn't mean jack shit.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 01:47 PM
With 1.5 million used to sign Malone and 4.5 millions used to sign Payton, I'll take my chances with the extra 4.5 to make a play at Brand or O'Neal or even Odom.

There's no sense in arguing with a homer who is afraid to give to get.

Bowen is not untouchable.

And who's to say that Brown comes here for $3.8 million? It may take more to get those Nesterovic-level centers.

KoriEllis
07-09-2003, 01:49 PM
Bowen is not untouchable

Only Duncan is untouchable.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 01:55 PM
Thank you, Kori. The homers here act like Bowen beat the Lakers with his stellar 'D' on Kobe. Bryant has never approached 35 PPG in a series against any defender. Jackson is not going to yeild 45 PPG to Bryant. Even if he did get scorched, you throw Ginobili on him. That's probably the better defensive matchup anyway.

We have depth at the PG and the swingman spot now. If we need more money to get a center, than that's where you make a trade.

People want a perfect lineup, but they want to keep everone after adding talent at the same positions.

People want a superster and a center, but they are unwilling to give anything up if need-be.

Mind-boggling.

:cooldevil

scott
07-09-2003, 02:05 PM
So now you are pinning your hopes that Brand or ONeal will take significantly less than the max?

There are no big men available that are worth losing Bowen after.

You suggest giving this lineup up:

Kidd
Jackson
Bowen
Duncan
Zo/PJ

Bench: Manu, Rose, Parker, Willis, Kerr

for this one:

Kidd
Manu
Jackson
Duncan
Kandi/Rasho

Bench: Rose, Willis, Kerr, ?, ?

By trading Bowen and Parker, you were able to upgrade all the way from Zo/PJ to Kandi/Rasho.

Bowen is worth more than that marginal upgrade.

timvp
07-09-2003, 02:18 PM
If the Spurs get Kidd -- Bowen and Parker would have to prove they can play the Spurs new basketball. It's actually a shame that those two have to do that after winning a Championship, but the NBA is a business. Period.





Kidd changes everything.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 02:29 PM
scott, again, who are you to decide who will sign for $3.8 million.

Bowen is not worth keeping if it means getting a starting quality center. Parker, maybe, but Bowen? No.

timvp, thank you for coming out of hibernation long enough to course-correct young scottie here.


:cooldevil

Aggie Hoopsfan
07-09-2003, 02:35 PM
Bowen "held" Bryant to 28 PPG on 43% shooting and an average of 6 TOs as the primary ballhandler for the Lakers.

Remarkable job of shutting down Bryant by Bowen.



Yes, 28 PPG is much better than the 40 a game he was getting before that, not to mention the 6-7 APG he was chipping in.

Ghost, sometimes you have good takes, this isn't one of them.

It's not about stats, when he goes up against Bowen Kobe plays with a chip on his shoulder that he has to show up one of the widely held best defenders against him, and turns into a ball hog.

Any other time he plays the team game and hooks up his teammates. When Bowen plays him, it turns into a street ball game where Kobe is jacking up 40 shots a game. That's what did in LA, not our shutting down his other teammates.

AHF

bigzak25
07-09-2003, 02:50 PM
and all this without even mentioning that bowen led the NBA in 3pt shooting last year.

do you remember BOWEN lighting up the lakers in game 2?

spurster
07-09-2003, 02:57 PM
Kobe had an efficiency/game of 26.4 vs. the TWolves, and 20.8 vs. the Spurs, mainly more turnovers and fewer assists.

Archie
07-09-2003, 02:59 PM
Bowen's not untouchable, but if you can get the same level of bigman talent without giving him up you do that.

Dammit Ghost just because you have an asset doesn't mean you dump it for nothing just because you can do it.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 03:01 PM
You guys are overrating idiot homers.

Brynat averaged 31.8 PPG in the first round against the Timberwolves. He averaged more against Bowen and the Spurs in the second round — even with that horrible 20 pt. performance in Game 6!


Kobe has never cracked 35 PPG against any defender in all his years in the playoffs!


What makes you think he'd snap for 45 PPG against Ginobili or Jackson?!?


Stop overrating.

:cooldevil

Jimcs50
07-09-2003, 03:03 PM
Ghost, we are not trading Bowen....that is crazy talk...go take your meds.

Archie
07-09-2003, 03:04 PM
This is fucking stupid. Bowen allowed the Spurs to play LA straight up. No shit that Bryant scored those points but did he get anyone else involved, Ghost?

Dammit this shit has been asked and answered again and again about what Bowen brings to the table and again and again you fail to get it. Stop wasting our time rehashing old fucking discussions like you do so well and stick to the situation at hand.

Thank you.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 03:05 PM
You guys are overrating idiot homers.

Bryant averaged 31.8 PPG in the first round against the Timberwolves. He averaged more against Bowen and the Spurs in the second round — even with that horrible 20 pt. performance in Game 6!


Kobe has never cracked 35 PPG against any defender in all his years in the playoffs!


What makes you think he'd snap for 45 PPG against Ginobili or Jackson?!?


Stop overrating.

:cooldevil

Whottt
07-09-2003, 03:06 PM
Trading Bowen, who is 30 something makes more sense then some of the other trades mentioned. Guarding Kobe took everything out of Bowen, he wasn't the same after that series against LA.

50 Cent
07-09-2003, 03:08 PM
Wow,

Ghost Writer - I must say after reading this thread that you have lost any credibility that you may have had with anybody, if that's possible.

To say Bowen's defense on Kobe is overrated is probably the most ludacrist thing I have ever heard. Do you actually watch the games? Do you happen to see how frustrated Kobe gets when Bowen is guarding him like stink on shit?

Pop loves his defenders and for Bowen's salary, he isn't going anywhere. Bowen plays such good defense on Kobe that Kobe generally scores about as many points as shots he takes. I will take that any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Kobe also doesn't get near as many assists because he is generally too frustrated and ends up jacking up an ill advised shot (although he is great enough to do that and make 40% of his crazy shots).

You are an idiot. Scot, I wouldn't waste any more time making valid points and arguing with this moron. We can all see he is a fucking idiot.:rollin

Archie
07-09-2003, 03:09 PM
I seem to recall Bryant torching the Spurs without Bowen in the playoffs and getting his teammates involved. Dammit Ghost stop this shit.

kohai
07-09-2003, 03:10 PM
...when he goes up against Bowen Kobe plays with a chip on his shoulder that he has to show up one of the widely held best defenders against him, and turns into a ball hog.

Any other time he plays the team game and hooks up his teammates. When Bowen plays him, it turns into a street ball game where Kobe is jacking up 40 shots a game. That's what did in LA, not our shutting down his other teammates.

Nail, head, bang.

timvp
07-09-2003, 03:16 PM
GW gave Bowen props for like a 12 hour period during the playoffs and I thought he had seen the light.

What happened?






Question.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 03:18 PM
50 Cent, fvck off, b1tch. Bowen chases around Kobe all game. Whoopty-friggin' do. The Wolves held him to less points. If it's between finding a starting center next year or keeping Bruce Almighty, I'll take my chances with Ginobili or Jackson guarding Kobe.

You people act like Bowen is the primary reason why we advanced against the Lakers this year. You're wrong.

No on eon this team is untouchable or indispensible besides Duncan.

:cooldevil

Whottt
07-09-2003, 03:19 PM
I seem to recall Bryant torching the Spurs without Bowen in the playoffs and getting his teammates involved. Dammit Ghost stop this shit.

And I seem to recall the Lakers killing us in the 4th quarter last year because we didn't have a secondary scorer..We got one and now everyone wants him on the bench or traded for more passing.

Oh and check the sig :eyebrow

Jimcs50
07-09-2003, 03:21 PM
Ghost, we are not just talking Kobe, have you seen Bowen totally frustrate Peja, like nobody else does? It is totally awesome watching Bowen shut down an opponent. If you polled all the 2s and 3s in the league and asked them who they hate the most on them, they would say Bruce Bowen. Look at all the great D he played on Marion and Hardaway in the first series, look at the job he did on Jefferson and Kittles in the Finals. It is not just Kobe, it is every 2 and 3 in this league that Bruce plays that matters to the Spurs.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 03:22 PM
Let's keep Bowen to hold Kobe to his usual 32 PPG, but let's start Willis or ROse at center to guard Shaq.


Brilliant.


:cooldevil

Jimcs50
07-09-2003, 03:23 PM
Kobe did not play the mins against Minn that he played against SA. Look at Kobe's FG% against Minn and compare it to the FG% against SA. That will tell the tale.

Archie
07-09-2003, 03:24 PM
Again you miss the point. There is not a need to move Bowen. And yes you are undervaluing what he brings to this team. Motherfucking stop this shit. You always divert this board from the real discussion at hand. ****.

KoriEllis
07-09-2003, 03:29 PM
The Spurs can get a big man (after Kidd) without trading anyone.

Whether they go that route or not is yet to be seen.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 03:35 PM
Give it up Kori..Ghost is on a quest to give away Parker or Bowen no matter what the cost.

I suggested Oberto to him and he has yet to respond. He'd rather trade away key pieces of our championship team so we can pay more to see our center get his ass kicked by Snaq.

50 Cent
07-09-2003, 03:41 PM
Kobe vs Minnesota

FG %: 43%
APG: 6.6
RB: 5.1
TO: 2.5
PPG: 31.83

Kobe vs San Antonio
FG%: 43%
APG: 3.6
RB: 5
TO: 4.5
PPG: 32.3

I guess everybody else is just wrong, including the national media who praised Bowen's defense, when they say that Bowen frustrates Kobe. They are just dead wrong when they say Kobe becomes more frustrated and doesn't get his teammates involved. We are all just dead wrong that Bowen frustrates the hell out of him to where he turns the ball over twice as much against Bowen as he does against everyone else. Get a fucking clue.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 03:43 PM
Good luck getting a quality center with $3 million, folks.

Maybe we can slide Bowen or Parker to the center to guard Shaq?


All I am is saying is that while you people consistently overrate the talent we have in house, I am ready to part with anyone not named Duncan to tighten up our roster with the best players at the right positions.

That's enough about this.

:cooldevil

Archie
07-09-2003, 03:47 PM
$3.8 mil. Yeah they can't get a quality big with that. If you don't think they can't then do us all a favor and sit on the sidelines and keep your trap shut.

50 Cent
07-09-2003, 03:50 PM
Good luck getting a quality center with $3 million, folks.
Then why the **** do you want to give all our money away to Kidd when we have a very competant PG?

Oh, I forgot, it's that 2nd SUPERSTAR that guarantees us something -- what was it? maybe some more media attention -- MAYBE?

Forget about Kidd, we don't need a PG. We need a CENTER.

Archie
07-09-2003, 03:51 PM
50 if that is what you think Kidd brings to the table then you need to join Ghost and Whottt in the padded room.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 03:51 PM
What makes you think Rasho is better than a guy like Oberto, who supposedly would love to play for the Spurs!!!!!!!!!!

Is Fizzar around, I wonder what his thoughts are?

kohai
07-09-2003, 03:53 PM
The Spurs can get a big man (after Kidd) without trading anyone.

Bingo. Of all of the REALLY good bigs, they can either come here as a FA or not. Of the next tier, there are enough PJ Browns, or perhaps Mournings, that would be interested in a FA deal. No need to offload assets if you don't have to.

Archie
07-09-2003, 03:54 PM
Spurs will be offering a lower starting salary but that would mean they would have to be willing to offer a longer deal.

KoriEllis
07-09-2003, 03:57 PM
Well PJ Brown is flexible.

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:00 PM
For a guy like Brown that would make some sense given that this is likely his last significant contract. He takes a little less starting but the Spurs guarantee more years.

Kidd & PJ makes for a pretty damn good offseason and puts the Spurs right up there with LA...could even make them better if some of you homers would open your damn eyes.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 04:02 PM
If we can entice Mourning/Nesterovic/Olowokandi/Brown to come and play here for $3 million, I'll drop the idea of trading Parker and Bowen, although the way I see things shaping up, neither of them will be a necessity next season.

50 Cent, why don't you go back to Da Club and stick a bottle full of bub straight up your candy-@ss? Try actually reading a thread before you contribute. Of course I want Bran or O'Neal, but I don't see that happening now.


:cooldevil

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:08 PM
$3.8 mil, crackhead.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 04:12 PM
If we can entice Mourning/Nesterovic/Olowokandi/Brown to come and play here for $3.8 million, I'll drop the idea of trading Parker and Bowen, although the way I see things shaping up, neither of them will be a necessity next season.

That $0.8 is gonna be huge.


:cooldevil

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:14 PM
You'd be surprised.

Jimcs50
07-09-2003, 04:16 PM
What about this talk about Kidd signing for 10 million so we can have 5 million to get PJ, Nesterovic or Kandi? Was this just speculation on the part of the Spur's frontoffice? Is there any credence to this?

KoriEllis
07-09-2003, 04:17 PM
What about this talk about Kidd signing for 10 million so we can have 5 million to get PJ, Nesterovic or Kandi? Was this just speculation on the part of the Spur's frontoffice? Is there any credence to this?

this was reported by someone at another site, but then it was rescinded by the reporter because it wasn't confirmed.

Jimcs50
07-09-2003, 04:22 PM
Well if GP can sign for less to win that evasive ring, WTF can't Kidd? Kidd will be beat again by LA if he does not decrease his inflated salary so SA can get some frontcourt help. Lets see is Kidd is serious about winning the championship. What is the difference betw 14 million and 10 million really???? What can you buy with 14 that you can't with 10? He might make more money in the long run after winning a few rings in endorsements.....look at Kobe.

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:25 PM
Because, Jim, Kidd's not at the end of his career like some of you geniuses seem to think he is.

Ghost Writer
07-09-2003, 04:35 PM
Quite frankly, I'd rather Payton & Malone for the money the Lakers are giving them than blow it all on Kidd and center du jour.

But we're not the Lakers.


We're the Spurs.™


:cooldevil

Archie
07-09-2003, 04:37 PM
IF YOU HATE IT SO BECOME A LAKER FAN THEN.

SlayerMin
07-09-2003, 04:58 PM
Just curious.

If Tim and Jason are both willing to take less money, couldn't the Spurs spend up to 6-7 million, as long as Kidd and Duncan sign after the FA big man?

They would both take less salary, splitting the difference. And depending on how much the BIG will cost them, they could save a little bit of dough for Manu next season.

But in no way should the Spurs trade away Parker or Bowen. I can't believe the Spurs would even consider it unless they are raping the team they are trading with.

50 Cent
07-09-2003, 05:05 PM
But in no way should the Spurs trade away Parker or Bowen. I can't believe the Spurs would even consider it unless they are raping the team they are trading with.
You wouldn't think that around here. Ghost Writer thinks Bowen's defense is overrated:rollin We should ship his ass out as soon as possible.

Likewise, Archie is ready to send that little shitty 21 year old point guard that was instrumental in us even making it to the Finals on the first train out of town. :wacko :smokin2 :drunk :hat2

Marcus Bryant
07-09-2003, 05:11 PM
I would think that passing on Kidd for a hope and a prayer is foolish but some of you geniuses must know better.

Whottt
07-09-2003, 05:16 PM
Kidd is just as much a hope and prayer as anything else.

Marcus Bryant
07-09-2003, 05:17 PM
Only in your warped mind it is.

bigzak25
07-09-2003, 05:35 PM
Well here's hoping that if Bowen can lead the NBA in 3pt shooting, than Jason K better damn well improve his percentage...especially since he won't be the main focus of the offense and he will be getting more wide open shots.

Everyone say a prayer that PJ dawns silver and black next year...

Ghost, you say we should stop overrating Bowen, but you overate Jax every time you get man. And Bowen might be the key to landing PJ.

I understand we need a Center, and of course we do, but at this point, short of finding a way to get rasheed wallace or elton brand, how can we trade away parker, bowen, or malik???

I feel your pain with JK man, but we can't let that cloud our judgment. TP will play a major role for us, even with JK in the fold...

Marcus Bryant
07-09-2003, 05:48 PM
Kidd shot 34% on 3s last year that's not exactly horrid as some here would think...especially with no low post presence.

Jimcs50
07-09-2003, 06:10 PM
Archie.

Because, Jim, Kidd's not at the end of his career like some of you geniuses seem to think he is.

So you are saying that 60 million is not enough to last him that extra 6 yrs betw himself and GP's age? WTF is anyone going to do with over 60 million dollars??? He makes side money in endorsements as well...Either you want the championship on your resume or not, that is my point.