Would LeBron be seen as an undisputed NBA GOAT, if ...

[i'm_still_beta]

... he was drafted by Pistons?

2004 - Detroit won without LeBron
2005 - Pistons lost tough 7 game series vs Spurs. They win with LeBron
2006 - Pistons go past Miami and win vs Mavericks with LeBron
2007 - it's gets tougher, but I think Pistons still win it all
2008 and 2009 - Lebron signs new contract, so it's tougher to say what happens next. Pistons in rebuild mode. Possible 2 more rings

So, LeBron gets at least 4 rings in his first 6 years. Great start.

[lefty]

I mean, he is the undisputed goat

[FrostKing]

Darko would bring a title to Cleveland and be regarded as the undisputed Kang

[MultiTroll]

Timmy Duncan > LeBron.

Carry on children.

[Spurtacular]

... he was drafted by Pistons?

2004 - Detroit won without LeBron
2005 - Pistons lost tough 7 game series vs Spurs. They win with LeBron
2006 - Pistons go past Miami and win vs Mavericks with LeBron
2007 - it's gets tougher, but I think Pistons still win it all
2008 and 2009 - Lebron signs new contract, so it's tougher to say what happens next. Pistons in rebuild mode. Possible 2 more rings

So, LeBron gets at least 4 rings in his first 6 years. Great start.

And if he did that and the others without help from the refs? Sure.

But reality being what it is....

[Rummpd]

I mean, he is the undisputed goat

Not even top three

Jordan
Kareem
Russell

James is a peripatetic and likely PED 4-6 finals non GOAT who is nothing but a BSPN created non GOAT

[Bynumite]

I was the biggest Lebron hater before he joined LA, even i had him as an easy top 5 entry, arguably top 3, after he beat Golden State in 2016.

Still think MJ is the GOAT but the case can definitely be made for Lebron, if he gets #5 and reaches #1 in all time points total.

'13 Spurs, '16 Warriors and '21 Nets are better than anything MJ ever faced in the playoffs tbh.

[Dirks_Finale]

I was the biggest Lebron hater before he joined LA, even i had him as an easy top 5 entry, arguably top 3, after he beat Golden State in 2016.

Still think MJ is the GOAT but the case can definitely be made for Lebron, if he gets #5 and reaches #1 in all time points total.

'13 Spurs, '16 Warriors and '21 Nets are better than anything MJ ever faced in the playoffs tbh.

Well, I think we can make the case that he has the best career ever... or right there with Kareem.

But as far as being the GOAT, he has too many faceplants for that to even be possible, tbh.

And let's picture MJ doing what Lebron has been effectively doing...so he leaves the Bulls after the 98 title and instead of retiring, he signs with the Rockets or Blazers and they go back-to-back. Now he has 8 rings and it's just getting down right ridiculous at this point. But I'm sure the stat sheet holders would still try and make a case for their guy, Lebron.

[Dirks_Finale]

You could argue top 5.

My top 10 goes something like this:

1.) MJ
2.) Kareem
3.) Wilt
4.) Duncan
5.) Russell
6.) Bird
7.) Magic
8.) Lebron
9.) Shaq
10.) Dream




Not even top three

Jordan
Kareem
Russell

James is a peripatetic and likely PED 4-6 finals non GOAT who is nothing but a BSPN created non GOAT

[Dirks_Finale]

Timmy Duncan > LeBron.

Carry on children.

I never hear people outside this site ever even considering this.

And Duncan came into the NBA polished and ready to win right away.

Bizarre.

[Bynumite]

Well, I think we can make the case that he has the best career ever... or right there with Kareem.

But as far as being the GOAT, he has too many faceplants for that to even be possible, tbh.

And let's picture MJ doing what Lebron has been effectively doing...so he leaves the Bulls after the 98 title and instead of retiring, he signs with the Rockets or Blazers and they go back-to-back. Now he has 8 rings and it's just getting down right ridiculous at this point. But I'm sure the stat sheet holders would still try and make a case for their guy, Lebron.

MJ hit too many clutch shots, has too many iconic moments and has a cultural impact both on and off the court that Lebron will never be able to match.

Like you said, if you go purely by numbers, the case for Lebron can be made.

[FrostKing]

I was the biggest Lebron hater before he joined LA, even i had him as an easy top 5 entry, arguably top 3, after he beat Golden State in 2016.

Still think MJ is the GOAT but the case can definitely be made for Lebron, if he gets #5 and reaches #1 in all time points total.

'13 Spurs, '16 Warriors and '21 Nets are better than anything MJ ever faced in the playoffs tbh.
1997 Rockets would defeat those Warriors or these Nets and they couldn't even crack the Finals in that Era

[ElNono]

I mean, he is the undisputed goat

[lefty]

Well, I think we can make the case that he has the best career ever... or right there with Kareem.

But as far as being the GOAT, he has too many faceplants for that to even be possible, tbh.

And let's picture MJ doing what Lebron has been effectively doing...so he leaves the Bulls after the 98 title and instead of retiring, he signs with the Rockets or Blazers and they go back-to-back. Now he has 8 rings and it's just getting down right ridiculous at this point. But I'm sure the stat sheet holders would still try and make a case for their guy, Lebron.

The Bulls were stacked, why would he go anywhere else?

[lefty]

1997 Rockets would defeat those Warriors or these Nets and they couldn't even crack the Finals in that Era

:lmao

[i'm_still_beta]

And if he did that and the others without help from the refs? Sure.

But reality being what it is....

It's just funny how circumstances that players can't control impact their legacy and perception

[ambchang]

Lebron became the undisputed goat the second he joined the lakers.

[Neo.]

And let's picture MJ doing what Lebron has been effectively doing...so he leaves the Bulls after the 98 title and instead of retiring, he signs with the Rockets or Blazers and they go back-to-back. Now he has 8 rings and it's just getting down right ridiculous at this point. But I'm sure the stat sheet holders would still try and make a case for their guy, Lebron.

not remotely similar situations considering mike had a competent coach and FO to build an elite team with excellent chemistry in chicago, compared to the mediocre talent bron got in cleveland along with no hope for the future due to a bunch of terrible contracts given out

could easily argue that if lebron was drafted into a situation like mike or steph where an elite team was built around him from the get-go, that he could already have had 5-6 rings in cleveland alone before 2019

[FrostKing]

not remotely similar situations considering mike had a competent coach and FO to build an elite team with excellent chemistry in chicago, compared to the mediocre talent bron got in cleveland along with no hope for the future due to a bunch of terrible contracts given out

could easily argue that if lebron was drafted into a situation like mike or steph where an elite team was built around him from the get-go, that he could already have had 5-6 rings in cleveland alone before 2019
He brought one single title to Cleveland. And numerous beat downs. Leonard accomplished the same in Canada at a fraction of the time.

[Neo.]

I never hear people outside this site ever even considering this.

And Duncan came into the NBA polished and ready to win right away.

Bizarre.

he also came into the NBA playing for a team that had averaged 59 wins for 3 seasons before tanking for a year to get him

aside from him and magic, not sure any elite player has ever been drafted into such good situations

[Neo.]

He brought one single title to Cleveland. And numerous beat downs. Leonard accomplished the same in Canada at a fraction of the time.

yeah because thats a very comparable situation :lmao

[Millennial_Messiah]

lol 21 nets mentioned in the same sentence as the 16 warriors :lmao

[Millennial_Messiah]

The jazz are the best team in the NBA and the nyets arent even leading the Eastern standings. Really the top of the NBA is very pedestrian records, looks more like pro baseball at this point. Gone are the days of teams trying to win in the high 60s and chase 70 wins. I get that it's a shortened season but the same concept still applies, i.e. in 2011-12 it was shortened but the top teams had much higher win %'s.

I think the 16 warriors and how that outcome turned out, winning 73 games but losing the big prize, really lead to the modern load management era league of "meh regular season don't matter" which honestly sucks for the game and greatly reduces the significance of the regular season compared to past eras, almost like it's baseball.

[Dirks_Finale]

The Bulls were stacked, why would he go anywhere else?

Because he took a stand in the 98 offseason saying he didn't want to play for anybody but Phil. So let's say he and Doug Collins end up in Houston or Portland the same way they did in D.C. years later...In this scenario, it just get's down right ridiculous in favor of MJ as undisputed GOAT.

[Dirks_Finale]

No doubt MJ had a much more favorable situation than Lebron did. But Lebron also had something to do with some of those bad contracts. He's always tried to play GM and Cleveland went after every shiny object that became available in order to appease him.


not remotely similar situations considering mike had a competent coach and FO to build an elite team with excellent chemistry in chicago, compared to the mediocre talent bron got in cleveland along with no hope for the future due to a bunch of terrible contracts given out

could easily argue that if lebron was drafted into a situation like mike or steph where an elite team was built around him from the get-go, that he could already have had 5-6 rings in cleveland alone before 2019

[Dirks_Finale]

The jazz are the best team in the NBA and the nyets arent even leading the Eastern standings. Really the top of the NBA is very pedestrian records, looks more like pro baseball at this point. Gone are the days of teams trying to win in the high 60s and chase 70 wins. I get that it's a shortened season but the same concept still applies, i.e. in 2011-12 it was shortened but the top teams had much higher win %'s.

I think the 16 warriors and how that outcome turned out, winning 73 games but losing the big prize, really lead to the modern load management era league of "meh regular season don't matter" which honestly sucks for the game and greatly reduces the significance of the regular season compared to past eras, almost like it's baseball.

The NBA and all their back to back games/scheduled losses caused it, tbh.

[lefty]

the significance of the regular season compared to past eras, almost like it's baseball.
lol regular seasons in the past eras wereen't that significant

In the 90s, some star players during interviews were asked what is the one thing they would change and the usual answer was the length of the regular season, some Dream Teamers even suggested reducing it to 60 games

[KobesAchilles]

Tbh all he had to do was beat Dallas and he would be considered the GOAT. He would have 5 rings, 5 Finals MVPs, 4 MVPs, 16X All-NBA, and going to the finals 10 times is an amazing achievement. And once you add on his #1 in points record then it would cement it even more.

[Neo.]

No doubt MJ had a much more favorable situation than Lebron did. But Lebron also had something to do with some of those bad contracts. He's always tried to play GM and Cleveland went after every shiny object that became available in order to appease him.

should they not try to get him good supporting talent?

problem was they couldn't draft worth a crap, and didn't know how to manufacture trades worth a crap.

and in addition, it didn't help when boston and LA were able to trade away worthless crap to build superteams. bron was put in a situation through no fault of his own where he either could stay and be remembered as a ringless disappointment like malone (of which no one gives a crap about his "loyalty" because he didn't win jack) or make his own path, create a legacy of his own (despite displeasing some about the "loyalty" aspect) and get to legitimately compete for multiple championships

[MultiTroll]

Tbh all he had to do was beat Dallas and he would be considered the GOAT. He would have 5 rings, 5 Finals MVPs, 4 MVPs, 16X All-NBA, and going to the finals 10 times is an amazing achievement. And once you add on his #1 in points record then it would cement it even more.
https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/o4PvBJLA7O6zD6SNecXooW4h2iQ=/1200x943/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/JFF7A7JRL7YVY7EVSJRBMONBIM.jpg
2014 Lebron is not getting bailed out by Lord Poppycock.

[Millennial_Messiah]

The NBA and all their back to back games/scheduled losses caused it, tbh.

Huh? It used to be worse than it is now. Before 2017 they started the season on the last tuesday of November not the second.

[Dirks_Finale]

Sure, but I feel like if they were not so pressured by him, they could have made more calculated decisions.

There's no excuse for their poor drafting and developing, though. And that aspect falls entirely on the FO.


should they not try to get him good supporting talent?

problem was they couldn't draft worth a crap, and didn't know how to manufacture trades worth a crap.

and in addition, it didn't help when boston and LA were able to trade away worthless crap to build superteams. bron was put in a situation through no fault of his own where he either could stay and be remembered as a ringless disappointment like malone (of which no one gives a crap about his "loyalty" because he didn't win jack) or make his own path, create a legacy of his own (despite displeasing some about the "loyalty" aspect) and get to legitimately compete for multiple championships

[FrostKing]

You could argue top 5.

My top 10 goes something like this:

1.) MJ
2.) Kareem
3.) Wilt
4.) Duncan
5.) Russell
6.) Bird
7.) Magic
8.) Lebron
9.) Shaq
10.) Dream
This is very similiar to my 10. Well done.

[Dirks_Finale]

Yup, that 2014 team was still pretty good. Wade was not his usual self but neither was Manu or Parker. You take prime Jordan and place him on that heat team and they win in 6 , imo. Kawhi would have shat himself with Jordan in his ear :lol




https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/o4PvBJLA7O6zD6SNecXooW4h2iQ=/1200x943/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/JFF7A7JRL7YVY7EVSJRBMONBIM.jpg
2014 Lebron is not getting bailed out by Lord Poppycock.[/QUOTE]

[Neo.]

Sure, but I feel like if they were not so pressured by him, they could have made more calculated decisions.

There's no excuse for their poor drafting and developing, though. And that aspect falls entirely on the FO.

the bulls were pressured far worse by MJ who repeatedly threatened to retire abruptly or sit out games if he didnt get help, yet they still turned out fine. idk why you keep reaching to find ways to discredit lebron

[Neo.]

Yup, that 2014 team was still pretty good. Wade was not his usual self but neither was Manu or Parker. You take prime Jordan and place him on that heat team and they win in 6 , imo. Kawhi would have shat himself with Jordan in his ear :lol




https://www.nydailynews.com/resizer/o4PvBJLA7O6zD6SNecXooW4h2iQ=/1200x943/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/JFF7A7JRL7YVY7EVSJRBMONBIM.jpg
2014 Lebron is not getting bailed out by Lord Poppycock.

yep for a team that lacked shooting and size, replacing one of their best shooters and biggest players with a smaller crappier shooter is the perfect solution to the spurs defensive gameplan for them :td

either way, you obviously dont pay attention or watch basketball, because you would know the real issue in that series was not the miami offense or anything lebron did or didnt do offensively. the issue was spos trash gameplan to double and trap relentlessly, which the spurs figured out and made them pay with good spacing and movement, shooting 47% from three. and spo thought eventually they would cool off, which clearly did not happen (as if the answer to a hot shooting team is to keep giving them wide open looks :rolleyes). not exactly sure how mike would fix that, would love to hear your explanation.

[Rummpd]

I was the biggest Lebron hater before he joined LA, even i had him as an easy top 5 entry, arguably top 3, after he beat Golden State in 2016.

Still think MJ is the GOAT but the case can definitely be made for Lebron, if he gets #5 and reaches #1 in all time points total.
'13 Spurs, '16 Warriors and '21 Nets are better than anything MJ ever faced in the playoffs tbh.
No friggin way he is 4-6 in finals despite hand picking teams and is the stat king PED enhanced likely of all time. Not even top three

Jordan - true GOAT
Kareem - all around greatest accomplishments and near GOAT
Russell - greatest winner

James could not even lead LA to playoffs without DaQuit.

Stop the sublime argument- James skipped college and has 4 years of meaningless stats period more than the real GOATs

[Neo.]

No friggin way he is 4-6 in finals despite hand picking teams and is the stat king PED enhanced likely of all time. Not even top three

Jordan - true GOAT
Kareem - all around greatest accomplishments and near GOAT
Russell - greatest winner

James could not even lead LA to playoffs without DaQuit.

Stop the sublime argument- James skipped college and has 4 years of meaningless stats period more than the real GOATs
shut up