Is the DeMar Derozan and Patrick Mills era officially over in San Antonio?

[kht]

The ball isn't sticking as much, they're sharing the ball much better, and the defense looks magnitudes better...

We need to go for a legit big like John Collins in the offseason... maybe trade up for Evan Mobley.

[Dejounte]

No one is trading away an opportunity to draft Mobley (or Cade). No one. Not unless you're giving that team Giannis or Doncic.

[kht]

No one is trading away an opportunity to draft Mobley (or Cade). No one. Not unless you're giving that team Giannis or Doncic.

Welp... well if we miss the playoffs, I won't feel too bad then.

[Kurgan]

Welp... well if we miss the playoffs, I won't feel too bad then.

Even if we miss the playoffs, we'll have almost no chance to draft Mobley/Cade either because we already won too many games.

[timtonymanu]

I don't think Pop can take losing his pet, Mills. Demar is gone though regardless.

[TheGreatYacht]

He keeps playing like this, Luka Samanic will go right with them. Need John Collins ASAP

[longhorn]

Even if we miss the playoffs, we'll have almost no chance to draft Mobley/Cade either because we already won too many games.

that’s because Brian Wright and PATFO either couldn’t, or didn’t want to, see what literally any casual fan could see before this season even started. That in no universe whatsoever is the ceiling anything other than an early playoff exit.

Somehow the franchise goal has shifted from “win it all” to “make the playoffs.” Started with the worthless haul we got in the Kawhi trade and has dictated almost every FO and coaching move since.

[Robz4000]

:lol not a chance. They're here to stay as long as Pop is around.

[r0drig0lac]

lol 00:01 100/3 and 45/3

[Kurgan]

I don't think Pop can take losing his pet, Mills. Demar is gone though regardless.

That's the scary thing. Spurs have so much cap space this summer they'll retain Mills no matter how much he demands. That video of him among the front office members when Murray signed his extension depressed me because it confirmed that Fatty was going to be here until retirement. They value Patty like he's a member of the organization.

[GAustex]

You know zit face will trot DDR and Patty out next game.
It obvious to any reasonable spurs keyboard warrior that DDR is the problem. He destroys the rhythm of the game.
Everyone stands around waiting for him to do something. Instead like tonight-the whole team was engaged.
It was really beautiful seeing Keldon and Vassel and others Drew take it upon themselves to be a difference instead of ceding to DDR BS.

[Ditty]

Unfortunately not. They are still going to lose games even if they would sit the rest of the season. The rest of the schedule is still pretty brutal and I'm pretty sure the Suns are going to be absolutely pissed the next two times we play them to end the season. I don't think what happened tonight changes anything outside of Vessell probably getting his minutes back.

[GAustex]

You know they will lose running DDR out there.
Play the youngsters-maybe they do lose-maybe not-they sure looked good tonight.
Some say Suns laid an egg and maybe so but it looked like Spurs young athletes took it to them and TOOK it from them

[ducks]

:lol not a chance. They're here to stay as long as Pop is around.

Pop can go then

[james evans]

I don't think Pop can take losing his pet, Mills. Demar is gone though regardless.
Don't be so sure of that. I don't trust a man that gave a completely washed up Gasol $48 mullion.

[james evans]

You know zit face will trot DDR and Patty out next game.
It obvious to any reasonable spurs keyboard warrior that DDR is the problem. He destroys the rhythm of the game.
Everyone stands around waiting for him to do something. Instead like tonight-the whole team was engaged.
It was really beautiful seeing Keldon and Vassel and others Drew take it upon themselves to be a difference instead of ceding to DDR BS.
That's popovich's fault. He's turned this season into allowing Defrozen to show the league he's worthy of a max contract. That's simply what our 2020-21 season will be remembered as. Defrozen's contract year.

[BackHome]

I am actually scarred what Pop is going to do after this season cause I just think he doesn’t give a shit about Spurs future he just wants to get the most wins as a coach and then he will leave. Which makes me wonder what shitty contracts he is going to give out???

[Larry O]

Well, let's say that DDR does move on this off season, and let's say they sign Lauri Markkannen. Well, I don't think he's at the point of his career where he can be relied on to consistently take over a game and be a closer that Pop relies on with DeRozan. Who on this current young team would take over that role? Murray? White or Keldon? Or will they sign some other unknown free agent vet with that attribute? Also, let's say that they do move on from DDR and retain Mills at a reduced role (cross our fingers!!!), the best move would be to have Jones' role increased, coming off the bench, as he is a true PG, with a better defensive upside, would be great for this team! And Pop needs to preach to Murray and this team to play with more offensive uptempo with more ball movement and passing on a consistent basis. Last night's game definitely showed that those who played, are capable of doing that and this can be a winning formula going forward next season, if DeRozan isn't with this team next year! GSG!!!

[Teamduncan21]

Well, let's say that DDR does move on this off season, and let's say they sign Lauri Markkannen. Well, I don't think he's at the point of his career where he can be relied on to consistently take over a game and be a closer that Pop relies on with DeRozan. Who on this current young team would take over that role? Murray? White or Keldon? Or will they sign some other unknown free agent vet with that attribute? Also, let's say that they do move on from DDR and retain Mills at a reduced role (cross our fingers!!!), the best move would be to have Jones' role increased, coming off the bench, as he is a true PG, with a better defensive upside, would be great for this team! And Pop needs to preach to Murray and this team to play with more offensive uptempo with more ball movement and passing on a consistent basis. Last night's game definitely showed that those who played, are capable of doing that and this can be a winning formula going forward next season, if DeRozan isn't with this team next year! GSG!!!

If we miss playoff anyway. Having derozan as the go to scorer doesn't really change anything. Vs Lauri (or straight up no go to scorer). Cause his scores don't translate to wins anyway. No point "taking over" if we can't win enough to make playoff. So whether we make it or not will be an interesting factor.
But regardless we shouldn't tie ourselves with ddr. We should find ways to move on from him. Hope we are able to pull some trades with our huge cap space. Whether it's getting a disgruntled star or getting picks by taking bad contracts

[TDMVPDPOY]

dd + mills + gay is holding this team back...u can add that wanker walker also, too inconsistent

[tbdog]

I honestly unsure what game you guys watched, but the ball certainly didn't move.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I think Demar is gone by his own choice.

We’ll be stuck with 4 more years of Patty, and Pop completely over playing him I’m afraid.

[NASpurs]

I honestly unsure what game you guys watched, but the ball certainly didn't move.

It wasn’t sticking to one player.

[C-Dub]

Rudy has to go or be regulated to 15 -18 mpg and not allowed to take more than 6 shot attempts per game. His defense and aggressiveness has all but been obsolete.

[R. DeMurre]

It wasn’t sticking to one player.

Exactly. Compare the usage rates of the last two games.

Vs Portland:

DeRozan: 32.7%
Murray: 24.1
White: 16.8
Johnson: 13.7
Poetlt: 18.9

Against Phoenix:

Murray: 17.7%
White: 25.3
Johnson: 22.1
Samanic: 21.6
Eubanks: 11.3

Against Portland, two players hog nearly 57% of the usage, and White-- who might be the best decision maker on the team-- is relegated to 17%.
Against Phoenix, the top two are at 47%, with White leading the way, and everyone getting more touches. A team with White controlling tempo a quarter of the time is better than a team where DeRozan controls the game a third of the time.

[SpursDynasty85]

I hope this win was a CIA pop move to show Mills and Derozan their time here is up after the season. Too many guards to play for the Spurs to sign them. Gay is an option purely because we need PFs on the team like him but his role should be different next year (probably has one or two years left tops.)

I’ll say it again best front court option right now is Dieng and Eubanks. Eubanks can defend the four Dieng can space for him on the offensive side.

[MultiTroll]

:corn:
Next games starting lineup and minutes distribution. :pop:

[Sugus]

Exactly. Compare the usage rates of the last two games.

Vs Portland:

DeRozan: 32.7%
Murray: 24.1
White: 16.8
Johnson: 13.7
Poetlt: 18.9

Against Phoenix:

Murray: 17.7%
White: 25.3
Johnson: 22.1
Samanic: 21.6
Eubanks: 11.3

Against Portland, two players hog nearly 57% of the usage, and White-- who might be the best decision maker on the team-- is relegated to 17%.
Against Phoenix, the top two are at 47%, with White leading the way, and everyone getting more touches. A team with White controlling tempo a quarter of the time is better than a team where DeRozan controls the game a third of the time.

Ah, how beautiful stats are, and how blind some fans. Good thing about stats is that, when used and interpreted correctly, they're pretty unarguable as far as painting pictures and countering the "eye test" of people already prone to bias. Thanks, R.

[R. DeMurre]

Ah, how beautiful stats are, and how blind some fans. Good thing about stats is that, when used and interpreted correctly, they're pretty unarguable as far as painting pictures and countering the "eye test" of people already prone to bias. Thanks, R.

I read a great thing the other day about how A&W restaurants tried to promote a 1/3rd lb burger as a superior & bigger alternative to the McDonald's Quarter Pounder, but after failing to be successful, market research showed that so many people thought the 1/4 lb burger was bigger than the 1/3 lb burger (4 bigger than 3, bro!). 'Merican math skills!

[Sugus]

I read a great thing the other day about how A&W restaurants tried to promote a 1/3rd lb burger as a superior & bigger alternative to the McDonald's Quarter Pounder, but after failing to be successful, market research showed that so many people thought the 1/4 lb burger was bigger than the 1/3 lb burger (4 bigger than 3, bro!). 'Merican math skills!

Lmao. Yeah, agree, these last couple of years on SpursTalk have been really eye-opening in terms of the "average American" ways of thinking, reasoning, and argumentating. Sad to think the true "American average" is even lower than the rhethorics spewed by some less-than-stellar posters on here.

[RC_Drunkford]

As long as the Flopovich era isn’t over the Mills DeRozan era won’t be over either

[spurs1990]

I'd rather watch the young players struggle through a 20-30 win season next year than watch any more DeRozan-centered Spurs games.
As long as he's on the roster commanding the highest salary, he'll be the focal point of the offense. Two years of that has been two years too many.

[mo7888]

I'd rather watch the young players struggle through a 20-30 win season next year than watch any more DeRozan-centered Spurs games.
As long as he's on the roster commanding the highest salary, he'll be the focal point of the offense. Two years of that has been two years too many.

They'll win more with the young guys than with these vets

[KobesAchilles]

I said this in the beginning of the year that running motion offense doesn’t mean shit when you have players like Patty and Gay. Demar can actually score but he isn’t one to play in a motion offense. Patty/Gay get the ball and they motion it to the basket.

[EasyMoney]

Devin and luka getting dnp next game

[tim_duncan_fan]

Devin and luka getting dnp next game

You know it.

[Down Under]

Mills still has a role in the 2nd unit, as he moves well without the ball as well as being an elite shooter, but you want Lonnie predominantly on the ball, not Mills. Ideally, Vassell starts which opens the floor up dramatically for White & Johnson. DeMar walks & Gay retires. Samanic has shown, particularly defensively, he's an NBA player. Two cold shooting nights after riding the pine for the season doesn't change that IMO.

[james evans]

I'd rather watch the young players struggle through a 20-30 win season next year than watch any more DeRozan-centered Spurs games.
As long as he's on the roster commanding the highest salary, he'll be the focal point of the offense. Two years of that has been two years too many.
That's the way I feel. I'm tired of Defrozen iso plays and Mills off of the screen bricking at the end of games.

[tbdog]

Exactly. Compare the usage rates of the last two games.

Vs Portland:

DeRozan: 32.7%
Murray: 24.1
White: 16.8
Johnson: 13.7
Poetlt: 18.9

Against Phoenix:

Murray: 17.7%
White: 25.3
Johnson: 22.1
Samanic: 21.6
Eubanks: 11.3

Against Portland, two players hog nearly 57% of the usage, and White-- who might be the best decision maker on the team-- is relegated to 17%.
Against Phoenix, the top two are at 47%, with White leading the way, and everyone getting more touches. A team with White controlling tempo a quarter of the time is better than a team where DeRozan controls the game a third of the time.

That to me means White absolutely should be coming off the bench with Walker or Vassell starting. And Mills minutes should be halved and only when he is on, he gets to 20mins

[GAustex]

Vassal should replace Murray

[Floyd Pacquiao]

That to me means White absolutely should be coming off the bench with Walker or Vassell starting. And Mills minutes should be halved and only when he is on, he gets to 20mins

why? derrick white plays defense and shoots 3s to spread the floor. defrozan does none of that.

[Chinook]

Exactly. Compare the usage rates of the last two games.

Vs Portland:

DeRozan: 32.7%
Murray: 24.1
White: 16.8
Johnson: 13.7
Poetlt: 18.9

Against Phoenix:

Murray: 17.7%
White: 25.3
Johnson: 22.1
Samanic: 21.6
Eubanks: 11.3

Against Portland, two players hog nearly 57% of the usage, and White-- who might be the best decision maker on the team-- is relegated to 17%.
Against Phoenix, the top two are at 47%, with White leading the way, and everyone getting more touches. A team with White controlling tempo a quarter of the time is better than a team where DeRozan controls the game a third of the time.

This feels pretty misleading. If you look at the USG% distribution for the season on the whole, the Spurs are basically spreading the load like the BG offense. In individual games, some players shoot more, but this necessarily means there are plenty of games where DMDR has a really low USG%, and finding out the Spurs' record in those would be interesting. Looking at NBA.com's tracking info, DeRozan two games ago handily outperformed White and Murray combined from last game. He was WAY more efficient as a scorer, passed more and passed with more success than either or both of the team's young guards. DeRozan gets a lot of shit, but he's a really, really, REALLY good offensive player. No one on the team has any realistic chance of being as good as him.

Also, no. A team with White controlling the tempo is only good if White himself is playing well. A lot of folks keep substituting the young players playing their best for what we can immediately (or even eventually) expect from them. White, when things are going well, plays like a playoff-caliber offensive center piece and lead defender. But that's not who he is most of the time. Real Derrick White has had more than a quarter of his games where he's scored single-digit points and where he's had a neutral or negative assist-to-turnover ratio. DeRozan only has five of each despite playing in 50-percent more games. White does a lot of good things, but he hasn't improved to where you can count on him to play a high-usage role. Consistency and floor are a huge part of a player's foundational ability. With Good White, the Spurs might be a sixth seed. But with Real White, they'd be an easy lotto team.

[R. DeMurre]

DeRozan gets a lot of shit, but he's a really, really, REALLY good offensive player. No one on the team has any realistic chance of being as good as him.


Individually, he's a better than average offensive player, but he has a decade long record that shows the vast majority of his teams in the regular season are better with him off the floor, and his numbers for the 6 seasons he has played in the playoffs are all dramatically in the negative, and among the worst you will ever find for a "star." Cherry picking his one relative strength while going out of your way to not even look at his obvious shortcomings... well, I don't get it. It's silly contrarianism at its best. Opposing teams target his defense because it's so universally agreed upon as a glaring weakness, and his iso ball/terror of the 3 ball approach lowers the effectiveness of his teammates on the offensive side.

[Down Under]

This feels pretty misleading. If you look at the USG% distribution for the season on the whole, the Spurs are basically spreading the load like the BG offense. In individual games, some players shoot more, but this necessarily means there are plenty of games where DMDR has a really low USG%, and finding out the Spurs' record in those would be interesting. Looking at NBA.com's tracking info, DeRozan two games ago handily outperformed White and Murray combined from last game. He was WAY more efficient as a scorer, passed more and passed with more success than either or both of the team's young guards. DeRozan gets a lot of shit, but he's a really, really, REALLY good offensive player. No one on the team has any realistic chance of being as good as him.

Also, no. A team with White controlling the tempo is only good if White himself is playing well. A lot of folks keep substituting the young players playing their best for what we can immediately (or even eventually) expect from them. White, when things are going well, plays like a playoff-caliber offensive center piece and lead defender. But that's not who he is most of the time. Real Derrick White has had more than a quarter of his games where he's scored single-digit points and where he's had a neutral or negative assist-to-turnover ratio. DeRozan only has five of each despite playing in 50-percent more games. White does a lot of good things, but he hasn't improved to where you can count on him to play a high-usage role. Consistency and floor are a huge part of a player's foundational ability. With Good White, the Spurs might be a sixth seed. But with Real White, they'd be an easy lotto team.
Do you think some of this has to do with White playing alongside a non-shooter in DD & 2 reluctant ones in Murray & Johnson?

[Chinook]

Individually, he's a better than average offensive player, but he has a decade long record that shows the vast majority of his teams in the regular season are better with him off the floor, and his numbers for the 6 seasons he has played in the playoffs are all dramatically in the negative, and among the worst you will ever find for a "star." Cherry picking his one relative strength while going out of your way to not even look at his obvious shortcomings... well, I don't get it. It's silly contrarianism at its best. Opposing teams target his defense because it's so universally agreed upon as a glaring weakness, and his iso ball/terror of the 3 ball approach lowers the effectiveness of his teammates.

Offense is half the game, not just "a part". I didn't say he was a good scorer. He's way better at offense in general than the other players. I didn't mention anything about his defense, and the post I was replying to wasn't talking about it. We aren't talking about whether the defense would be better without him; we're talking about whether having an even USG% distribution is good and whether White controlling the offense makes the team better.

It's completely wrong to thing White or Murray compare favorably to DeRozan on offense, and it's pretty much unfounded to claim that lowering DeMar's usage in favor of an even split would be better for the offense. It's not wrong to claim that the team can be better if they let DMDR go. It's just that to do so, they'll need to adequately replace him, and they will, in my opinion, struggle intensely if they try running Murray/White/Johnson as their perimeter trio. Sometimes that lineup would click and look good, but it'd be bad often enough to make for the worst iteration of the Spurs since 96.

[Chinook]

Do you think some of this has to do with White playing alongside a non-shooter in DD & 2 reluctant ones in Murray & Johnson?

I think it has to do with White being really inconsistent. Like I actually do think he'd play better without at least one of those guys. I just don't think he's been good enough consistently enough to where you can rely on him. Even with DMDR has been out, White hasn't played well enough to where you can say the team is in good hands. That's still true if you combine his play-making with Walker's scoring. DeMar's talent is just beyond them, and you have to replace that talent in order to have a chance to improve the team.

[GAustex]

Do you think some of this has to do with White playing alongside a non-shooter in DD & 2 reluctant ones in Murray & Johnson?
I do

[Dejounte]

It's completely wrong to thing White or Murray compare favorably to DeRozan on offense, and it's pretty much unfounded to claim that lowering DeMar's usage in favor of an even split would be better for the offense. It's not wrong to claim that the team can be better if they let DMDR go. It's just that to do so, they'll need to adequately replace him, and they will, in my opinion, struggle intensely if they try running Murray/White/Johnson as their perimeter trio. Sometimes that lineup would click and look good, but it'd be bad often enough to make for the worst iteration of the Spurs since 96.

Why do you assume they won't improve next season?

-Murray has taken a big step this season.

-Johnson has hit the "rookie wall" this season. If the consensus is that the player development staff is one of the best in the NBA, why can't we see him improving next season?

-This could be White's ceiling. Still, in a regular season where games are more spaced out, he could be a better performer.

Just really odd to say things in advance like this.

I would understand it if they've tapered off for two consecutive seasons, but Murray has literally improved every season, and Keldon's shown to have an insane work ethic with the transformation of his body.

[R. DeMurre]

Offense is half the game, not just "a part". I didn't say he was a good scorer. He's way better at offense in general than the other players. I didn't mention anything about his defense, and the post I was replying to wasn't talking about it. We aren't talking about whether the defense would be better without him; we're talking about whether having an even USG% distribution is good and whether White controlling the offense makes the team better.

It's completely wrong to thing White or Murray compare favorably to DeRozan on offense, and it's pretty much unfounded to claim that lowering DeMar's usage in favor of an even split would be better for the offense. It's not wrong to claim that the team can be better if they let DMDR go. It's just that to do so, they'll need to adequately replace him, and they will, in my opinion, struggle intensely if they try running Murray/White/Johnson as their perimeter trio. Sometimes that lineup would click and look good, but it'd be bad often enough to make for the worst iteration of the Spurs since 96.

:lol You're just arguing to hear yourself argue, and the only time you ever respond to anything I write is to disagree with it. If I said the sky was blue, you'd say no, it's aquamarine.
I didn't argue for an "even split." My point is and always has been--stated repeatedly-- that a team that has Derozan leading it in minutes and usage rate is not a team with a winning formula. I'm pretty sure you fundamentally agree with this, but much prefer to be pedantic and argue silly minutiae. Again, the issue is not White vs DeRozan one on one or Murray vs DeRozan battling it out on the playground, first guy to 15. It's a team concept that includes 50% of the time spent on defense and four other guys on the floor, and spacing, and opposing teams figuring how to defend, and not dribbling the air out of the ball in critical moments. I'm sorry my posts bug you so much, and that it's impossible for you to ever acknowledge agreeing with me on any solitary point, no matter how straight forward, but


It's not wrong to claim that the team can be better if they let DMDR go.


Yes, Chinook. I agree.

[Dejounte]

Would you believe it if I said Dejounte is shooting (from 3) better than the following players:

*with the qualifier being a minimum of 161 3-point attempts (that's how many DJ has right now)

Dejounte is shooting equal to or better than:

Wesley Matthews
Deni Avdija
Tyler Herro
Eric Gordon
John Wall
Josh Hart
Victor Oladipo
Josh Richardson
Kelly Oubre Jr.
Anthony Edwards
Caris LaVert
Russell Westbrook

He's also progressively improving through the course of the season. He's been hitting high marks since March.

Keldon has a higher 3PT% than Murray and all of those guys but has shot at a lower volume (134 attempts total).

[Dejounte]

Let's look at Derrick White:

*Qualifier is 204 3-point attempts minimum

He's shooting equal to or better than:

Kyle Anderson
Dillon Brooks
Lugentz Dort
Theo Maledon
Coby White
Goran Dragic
Bradley Beal
Kelly Olynyk
Dennis Shroder
+everyone on Murray's list

Derrick also started off 0-50 when he came back from his injury, so that is fucking up his 3PT% a lot.

I think it's a myth to say that these three can't shoot, and an even bigger myth to say they won't get better.

[Chinook]

:lol You're just arguing to hear yourself argue,

You're being dishonest to the point to where it's almost creepy. You posted a very misleading series of stats to paint a false picture of how the Spurs operate with DeRozan versus without and then made the conclusion that the Spurs with White controlling the tempo is better than one with DeRozan dominating the ball. I pointed out your stats were being used badly and that a White-led team would have obvious weaknesses that would make it hard to believe they'd be better offense without him. So no, we don't agree on any of the original points.

Then you pivoted to talking about defense, which has nothing to do with either your stats or your conclusion about White running the offense. My response was "okay, but that wasn't what we were talking about." Now you're trying to pull the "you just wanna argue to argue" angle. No, it was a really weird goal-post move on your part. Can the Spurs replace DeRozan and be better overall? Yes. Does removing DeRozan make the Spurs a better team? No, not by itself. That second question is the main premise of both the thread and your post. We don't actually agree on any thing we were talking about. It's fine to not want to talk about it. But don't try to clip me out of context to make it seem like I'm saying something different.

[Chinook]

Why do you assume they won't improve next season?

"Improving" and improving to the point where you can be an All-Star --level centerpiece are vastly different things. It's not actually reasonable to assume that players will become that good. Obviously some do, even some that don't seem to have that potential like Kawhi. It's a huge gap.

[Dejounte]

"Improving" and improving to the point where you can be an All-Star --level centerpiece are vastly different things. It's not actually reasonable to assume that players will become that good. Obviously some do, even some that don't seem to have that potential like Kawhi. It's a huge gap.

Ah, I didn't exactly mean they'll improve to all-star level...right away, anyway. I don't have the view that any are turning into a star for certain, but neither do I have the view that none will. It's my opinion that when you're on the Spurs, your projection isn't quite as linear as it would be had you been on another team. I try my best not to predict the future but look at positive or negative results now and make comparative analysis towards other players for perspective.

With that said, I'm of the belief that you don't necessarily need any of those three to reach all-star level for the team to become more competent than the current team with DeMar. Player development + upgrades at other positions can get you there. How good? I don't know exactly. Like everyone, I hope the Spurs can find a gamechanger with their pick this year.

[Chinook]

Ah, I didn't exactly mean they'll improve to all-star level...right away, anyway. I don't have the view that any are turning into a star for certain, but neither do I have the view that none will. It's my opinion that when you're on the Spurs, your projection isn't quite as linear as it would be had you been on another team. I try my best not to predict the future but look at positive or negative results now and make comparative analysis towards other players for perspective.

With that said, I'm of the belief that you don't necessarily need any of those three to reach all-star level for the team to become more competent than the current team with DeMar. Player development + upgrades at other positions can get you there. How good? I don't know exactly. Like everyone, I hope the Spurs can find a gamechanger with their pick this year.

Again, it's possible that someone improve enough. It's also possible that the Spurs can acquire such a player in such a way that they will basically be swapping DMDR out for a pure upgrade. I've just grown more pessimistic about the "star by committee" approach after seeing it in action this season. Not enough guys step up in a particular game to make up for other teams having stars. They're a defensive four from being able to match up on that end with any team. That would make them able to win any game. But they'd probably then be missing two All-Star caliber scorers to even become a dark-horse contender. Maybe if they got a star in the draft and signed Collins, they'd be able to turn around quickly. But they feel like they could be more of a treadmill team next year in my estimation than they were at the start of this past off-season.

[R. DeMurre]

Can the Spurs replace DeRozan and be better overall? Yes. Does removing DeRozan make the Spurs a better team? No, not by itself.

Again, this is just another pedantic argument. You make it sound as if I (and others) are advocating getting rid of DeRozan and then trotting out 4 players next season to do battle against opposing teams with 5 players on the floor. Yes, obviously, the player that in theory replaces DDR plays some defense and shoots threes, and knows how to dribble a basketball, and is not in a wheelchair, and does not have a seeing eye dog, and doesn't have bullet holes in his forehead, and isn't in an Iron Lung. Thanks, Capt Obvious.

And I didn't "pivot" to defense... defense is always part of the equation. Just because it wasn't directly mentioned in the immediate discussion before doesn't mean it's somehow horribly incongruous and inappropriate to bring it up in an analysis of a player's overall value.

[The Truth #6]

Again, it's possible that someone improve enough. It's also possible that the Spurs can acquire such a player in such a way that they will basically be swapping DMDR out for a pure upgrade. I've just grown more pessimistic about the "star by committee" approach after seeing it in action this season. Not enough guys step up in a particular game to make up for other teams having stars. They're a defensive four from being able to match up on that end with any team. That would make them able to win any game. But they'd probably then be missing two All-Star caliber scorers to even become a dark-horse contender. Maybe if they got a star in the draft and signed Collins, they'd be able to turn around quickly. But they feel like they could be more of a treadmill team next year in my estimation than they were at the start of this past off-season.

Overall, I see many of your points. But I disagree with your assessment of “star by committee”. We have a star. DDR. Unfortunately, he doesn’t contribute to winning basketball overall. The Phoenix game was perhaps the only game all year of “star by committee” (assuming I understand the term correctly), so it’s difficult to be tired of it when we’ve never seen it.

Was the Phoenix game without 3 of our established players a Bubble-esque mirage? Probably. But the young players had good chemistry. Unsustainable outside shooting will do that, but I want to see more of this lineup. Luka didn’t even do anything. Curious to see what more time will do with this latest rotation.

But honestly, the person that I felt like wasn’t really missed that much was actually Yak. Dieng and Eubanks were serviceable and offered a nice complement to each other.

[DAF86]

It is a damn travesty they didn't turn DeRozan into future assets of some kind. Shame on PATFO and the damn Spurs fans with stockholm syndrome that want to retain the guy.

[R. DeMurre]

Shame on PATFO and the damn Spurs fans with stockholm syndrome that want to retain the guy.



:lol

[tim_duncan_fan]

For the future, the preference is for the Spurs to not win this season anyway, so arguments that Derozan should play because some other guys can't carry is moot.

Besides that, the other reason not to play Derozan and Patty is the game is more watchable without them. At this point, seeing the young guys play the vast majority of the minutes while taking the vast majority of the shots and seeing something that looks like solid basketball are all I care about.

[rankingtear]

That's the way I feel. I'm tired of Defrozen iso plays and Mills off of the screen bricking at the end of games.

Unfortunately those have the best chance of scoring than any other players action at 1.22 ppp and 1.19 ppp.

[Chinook]

And I didn't "pivot" to defense...

Yes you did. Your point was exclusively about offense. My response was exclusively about offense. THEN you were like, "But his defense..." The Spurs will likely be a worse offensive team if they don't find an offensive star to fit into their lineup (don't give me this "four on five" bullshit). That can be true while also believing that the Spurs can be better without him. Me thinking it's possible isn't the same thing as me thinking it's likely -- which is your stance. I think unless the Spurs acquire a star, they are looking at the lottery for a while. So we don't agree that they'll be better, and we don't agree that the Spurs should be trying for a White-led offense.

As I've said repeatedly in this thread, we don't agree on what we've been talking about. That's fine, but constantly acting like we do and rolling your eyes doesn't actually make your point stronger.

[Dejounte]

Unfortunately those have the best chance of scoring than any other players action at 1.22 ppp and 1.19 ppp.

Part of me wonders how much these stats are being distorted by Patty's inhumane start at the beginning of the season. No one with a pair of eyes can truly say Patty's been effective at scoring for months now. He gets hot every one of out 4-5 games now. We all know DeMar can score, but at the expense of so many other things (including freezing out other players, which reduces their ppp) - which is mostly everyone's point.

[Dejounte]

Here's how dishonest sharing those stats look:

PJ Dozier, Monte Morris, Will Barton all have a higher PPP than Jamal Murray on Denver. I guess they have the best chance of scoring over Jamal.

Robert Covington, Harry Giles have a higher PPP than both McCollum and Covington.

Payton Pritchard, Jeff Teague, Marcus Smart, Tristan Thomson all have a much higher PPP than both Tatum and Brown. I guess Tatum and Brown are not very good scorers.

Cameron Payne has a 1.04 PPP to Devin Booker's 0.84. I guess he's a star in the making.

Markeiff and Montrezl both have a higher PPP than LeBron. Go retire already, LeBron.

There's more, but I'll stop here...

[tbdog]

Part of me wonders how much these stats are being distorted by Patty's inhumane start at the beginning of the season. No one with a pair of eyes can truly say Patty's been effective at scoring for months now. He gets hot every one of out 4-5 games now. We all know DeMar can score, but at the expense of so many other things (including freezing out other players, which reduces their ppp) - which is mostly everyone's point.

I disagree that DDR freezes out other players on offense. I just don't agree at all with that. I am with you on Patty. He had a great start and we were winning thanks to some of his help. Our bench blows atm and Mills is shooting below 40% since the allstar break.

[rankingtear]

Part of me wonders how much these stats are being distorted by Patty's inhumane start at the beginning of the season. No one with a pair of eyes can truly say Patty's been effective at scoring for months now. He gets hot every one of out 4-5 games now. We all know DeMar can score, but at the expense of so many other things (including freezing out other players, which reduces their ppp) - which is mostly everyone's point.

I don't know how Demar's iso reduces the efficiency of other players.

[rankingtear]

Here's how dishonest sharing those stats look:

PJ Dozier, Monte Morris, Will Barton all have a higher PPP than Jamal Murray on Denver. I guess they have the best chance of scoring over Jamal.

Robert Covington, Harry Giles have a higher PPP than both McCollum and Covington.

Payton Pritchard, Jeff Teague, Marcus Smart, Tristan Thomson all have a much higher PPP than both Tatum and Brown. I guess Tatum and Brown are not very good scorers.

Cameron Payne has a 1.04 PPP to Devin Booker's 0.84. I guess he's a star in the making.

Markeiff and Montrezl both have a higher PPP than LeBron. Go retire already, LeBron.

There's more, but I'll stop here...

Lol , the context is end of games shots Demar iso, and Patty spot ups. Demar on iso playtype and Patty on spotups. I know PPP depends on playtypes so a spot up shooter would naturally have higher PPP than an isolation or pick and roll scorer.

[R. DeMurre]

Yes you did. Your point was exclusively about offense. My response was exclusively about offense. THEN you were like, "But his defense..." The Spurs will likely be a worse offensive team if they don't find an offensive star to fit into their lineup (don't give me this "four on five" bullshit). That can be true while also believing that the Spurs can be better without him. Me thinking it's possible isn't the same thing as me thinking it's likely -- which is your stance. I think unless the Spurs acquire a star, they are looking at the lottery for a while. So we don't agree that they'll be better, and we don't agree that the Spurs should be trying for a White-led offense.

.

Wrong again. I mentioned usage rate and minutes played, and minutes played by definition are intimately related to defense, as roughly 50% of minutes played are spent on the defensive side of the floor. Obviously, if a guy has a sky high usage rate and only plays 3 minutes, it won't have a huge effect on the game. It was never exclusively about offense, but then you tried to pretend that a casual post about usage rate and a comparison between two games was a doctoral thesis on statistics and was somehow missing chapters of explanation. In a casual discussion with a person who isn't a pedantic contrarian, it shouldn't need to be said that the player leading the team in usage rate and minutes played also necessarily is playing lots of defense, but with you that becomes the aha, gotcha! moment that somehow proves the previous discussion has a giant hole in it.

[Dejounte]

I don't know how Demar's iso reduces the efficiency of other players.

For one, there's been many instances where DeMar hands it off with 10 seconds left on the clock after failing to break down his man. This can lead the other Spurs player scrambling.


Lol , the context is end of games shots Demar iso, and Patty spot ups. Demar on iso playtype and Patty on spotups. I know PPP depends on playtypes so a spot up shooter would naturally have higher PPP than an isolation or pick and roll scorer.


Patty's PPP is typical for someone with his frequency. If you look at players with around the same PPP, they all hover around the same 20-30% frequency. The higher this goes, the lower PPP becomes-- unless you're the select few who are elite at it. Lonnie & White are not far off from Patty, and they both have a higher frequency so their PPP is quite typical for spot up shooters.

[Dex]

Is the season over already?

Then...probably not.

[rankingtear]

For one, there's been many instances where DeMar hands it off with 10 seconds left on the clock after failing to break down his man. This can lead the other Spurs player scrambling.

Well that what isolation is, someone has to do it or else we would have a homogenous offense. Not like we run a lot of isolations 20th in the league and we are already league leader in pick and roll possesions.

And one of the reasons i think iso to end the game is common is that teams usually go small switch defense on closing lineups and the best option is iso or postups.



Patty's PPP is typical for someone with his frequency. If you look at players with around the same PPP, they all hover around the same 20-30% frequency. The higher this goes, the lower PPP becomes-- unless you're the select few who are elite at it. Lonnie & White are not far off from Patty, and they both have a higher frequency so their PPP is quite typical for spot up shooters.

I don't know how Patty PPP on spot up is typical for his frequency you got to compare players with similar frequency. But off screen patty is at 93 percentile at 1.2 possesions per game which is usually the shots he gets on late clock situations.

[longhorn]

It is a damn travesty they didn't turn DeRozan into future assets of some kind. Shame on PATFO and the damn Spurs fans with stockholm syndrome that want to retain the guy.

Brian Wright hasn't made a move yet that shows much competency managing assets with a forward-thinking view and navigating the trade market.

Any idiot in the world could have looked at our roster this past offseason and known that we aren't going to be re-signing all four of LMA, DeMar, Rudy, and Patty. A good GM figures out which guy(s) aren't in their future plans ahead of time and then moves them to a contender for future assets.

Not to mention the absolute shitshow of giving Bertans away for literally nothing--who, while not a perfect player, had a great year offering the one thing this team sorely needs (3pt shooting) and then got an enormous contract from the team we gave him to for free. All to be able to sign DeMarre Carroll, who was then bought out. Great stuff tbh.

[SAGirl]

Again, it's possible that someone improve enough. It's also possible that the Spurs can acquire such a player in such a way that they will basically be swapping DMDR out for a pure upgrade. I've just grown more pessimistic about the "star by committee" approach after seeing it in action this season. Not enough guys step up in a particular game to make up for other teams having stars. They're a defensive four from being able to match up on that end with any team. That would make them able to win any game. But they'd probably then be missing two All-Star caliber scorers to even become a dark-horse contender. Maybe if they got a star in the draft and signed Collins, they'd be able to turn around quickly. But they feel like they could be more of a treadmill team next year in my estimation than they were at the start of this past off-season.
I am curious about the last sentence Chinook. Why is your opinion worse than it was this past off-season? Is it LMA falling off a cliff? It doesn’t seem that they have one guy to build around, and in their minds it would seem that Dejounte is their favorite by work ethic, leader personality and the hard work he must undoubtedly put in the gym to improve himself from a vary thin, springy athlete without a shot and with a high dribble.

But they obviously need talent. This is what I think your point is. They have been a treadmill team since Kawhi left and will only improve through the draft. Being a small market team I don’t see it happening any other way. They do have a good collection of young players that could rise if that one star fell to them somehow, but alas that is an unknown factor.

Edit: but to the original point, it can’t be “officially” over if it isn’t over. Hypothetically speaking I do see Demar leaving of his own decision as poster Helicopter mentioned. Patty should move on at this point, but he’s so ingrained in the team’s culture that it’s even difficult to say he’ll sign elsewhere while Pop is still coach...

[jjspur]

Lets just say that if DDR leaves, the spurs have 27 million dollars to replace him with. The spurs might pay Markannen about 18 million per season (which isn't all that bad) so that leaves 9 million to sign an up and coming guard (Gary Trent Jr. or Devonte Graham possibly). all from DDR's current salary. You could sign them as backups while promoting one of our current guards to start. Then there is Rudy's and Mills salaries more found money. Both should have reduced salaries if they are even on the team. Lyles, he's pretty much already gone so count his salary as well, hasta la vista Trey.
I know a few spurs are getting sizeable raises and we all know San Antonio isn't exactly a top free agent destination, so we should make the best of the situation by signing other teams free agents that show some decent skill to reasonable salaries and can help the spurs back into contention while working within our newly acquired cap space. The team will look quite a bit different next year not to mention younger if they do things right. We have a decent core but it will really help if we get some talent that isn't overpaid.

[exstatic]

Truth bomb..


https://twitter.com/hobbyistbrendan/status/1383839356843028487?s=21

[BillMc]

I could see Patty being resigned at a lower rate with a smaller role. I think the organization views him as a "team' guy and a connection to the old days. Some other team may outbid the Spurs, but I'd be surprised if they don't offer something to Patty.

[exstatic]

Overall, I see many of your points. But I disagree with your assessment of “star by committee”. We have a star. DDR. Unfortunately, he doesn’t contribute to winning basketball overall. The Phoenix game was perhaps the only game all year of “star by committee” (assuming I understand the term correctly), so it’s difficult to be tired of it when we’ve never seen it.

Was the Phoenix game without 3 of our established players a Bubble-esque mirage? Probably. But the young players had good chemistry. Unsustainable outside shooting will do that, but I want to see more of this lineup. Luka didn’t even do anything. Curious to see what more time will do with this latest rotation.

But honestly, the person that I felt like wasn’t really missed that much was actually Yak. Dieng and Eubanks were serviceable and offered a nice complement to each other.

We won the Phoenix game because we allowed 85 points. We didn’t need to shoot nearly as well as we did. That’s what getting rid of DeRozan gets you. Offload one or both of the other old timers, and we’ll be a defensive force. I love that full court zone trap we’ve been throwing at teams this year.

[Texas_Ranger]

theres people that want these two back?

[The Truth #6]

We won the Phoenix game because we allowed 85 points. We didn’t need to shoot nearly as well as we did. That’s what getting rid of DeRozan gets you. Offload one or both of the other old timers, and we’ll be a defensive force. I love that full court zone trap we’ve been throwing at teams this year.

Solid points. A defensive minded team may not always get blowouts but will be way more competitive.

[Stump]

theres people that want these two back?
:pop:

[TD 21]

Brian Wright hasn't made a move yet that shows much competency managing assets with a forward-thinking view and navigating the trade market.

Any idiot in the world could have looked at our roster this past offseason and known that we aren't going to be re-signing all four of LMA, DeMar, Rudy, and Patty. A good GM figures out which guy(s) aren't in their future plans ahead of time and then moves them to a contender for future assets.

Not to mention the absolute shitshow of giving Bertans away for literally nothing--who, while not a perfect player, had a great year offering the one thing this team sorely needs (3pt shooting) and then got an enormous contract from the team we gave him to for free. All to be able to sign DeMarre Carroll, who was then bought out. Great stuff tbh.

Wright is more than likely a mere figurehead, who does the day to day leg work, but it's probably naive to think he has final say on the monumental decisions.

If he had the autonomy to do what needs to be done, I suspect he would have.

[MultiTroll]

MVPatty is good enough.
Are you Pops profile?
Or just an unfunny troll?

You of the "6th Man of the Year" Patty thread also.