Grades: Spurs @ Pacers - Apr. 19, 2021

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/grades-san-antonio-spurs-indiana-pacers-game-56/

More good D? Nice, tbh.

[Spurs Homer]

Vassell was rewarded for his stellar play against the suns...

with garbage time minutes

[spurs10]

Thanks for the writeup and grades! Good to see the win!

[Fireball]

Vassell could easily have played all of Pattys minutes ... dont care about different positions they play

[John B]

Thanks for the grades. 3 quarters of good basketball, and 4th quarter of tired, going-through motion basketball. Spurs were lucky the Pacers played worst or they could’ve given the lead back and lost the game. Patty had to get into a squabble to get a 2pts. :lol. He’s really been playing bad, passing up open 3’s to penetrate and pass to a lower % guy. I mean it took Vassell less than 1 possession to equal Patty’s production :lol

[TDMVPDPOY]

so wtf is pop actually doing...making playoffs or tanking for a pick? theres really no point now

[BillMc]

Thanks OP

[KobesAchilles]

If we beat the Heat tomorrow we have a really good shot at a 5 game winning streak. Though I am worried bc they play at home and we are shit at home

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1384487725345148928?s=19

[R. DeMurre]

In the first quarter, White was the definitive PG and controlled the offense. In the second quarter, the Spurs went away from that.

[TDomination]

So, yeah, something was off with Mills tonight. I don’t know if he was injured, sick or just tired but he barely did anything when on the court. On offense, he was literally hiding in the corner for a majority of his minutes


Perhaps Mills was trying to hint to Pop to get him off the court by not doing anything. But Pop and his stubbornness will just keep Mills in, even when completely unproductive.

[Dejounte]

In the first quarter, White was the definitive PG and controlled the offense. In the second quarter, the Spurs went away from that.

Umm what? I don't know where yours and timvp 's assessment of White being the main ball handler coming from, but I'm re-watching the game right now on league pass and don't see this change.

1st play, Murray initiates the offense
2nd play, White brings it up the court, gives it to Murray
3rd, Murray again
4th, Murray again

So forth and so forth. Granted, I'm just finishing up the first quarter so second might change, but I'll post about that here shortly.

[Mugen]

Hey all you Pop haters, how did TJ Mconnell and Jakarr Sampson do this time around? Nobody and I mean nobody embarrasses the old man two times in a row unless it's the playoffs or it's actually a decent team not missing half their roster.

[Dejounte]

Yeah, so I just went through each play of the first half and there was no offense re-distribution evident. It was the same old:

When White and Murray are both on the court - Murray is primary, White (and DeMar) are secondary
When White is the only one of the two on the court - he's naturally the primary
When Murray is the only one of the two on the court - he's naturally the primary

Difference last night was we had peak White - he made his shots, he didn't have any sloppy passes, he didn't hang his head after a miss.

This version of White is a starter on a championship team. If only we had him 90% of the time. But hey, he's been on a roll this month so who knows...

[R. DeMurre]

Umm what? I don't know where yours and timvp (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8) 's assessment of White being the main ball handler coming from, but I'm re-watching the game right now on league pass and don't see this change.

1st play, Murray initiates the offense
2nd play, White brings it up the court, gives it to Murray
3rd, Murray again
4th, Murray again

So forth and so forth. Granted, I'm just finishing up the first quarter so second might change, but I'll post about that here shortly.

I just rewatched also, and you're right that Murray & White share bringing up the ball for the first part of the quarter, with Murray having more initial touches. But in the 4 minutes of the quarter where the Spurs dramatically extend the lead, it's all White.

[Dejounte]

I just rewatched also, and you're right that Murray & White share bringing up the ball for the first part of the quarter, with Murray having more initial touches. But in the last nearly 4 minutes of the quarter where the Spurs dramatically extend the lead, it's all White.

Yup, when the $17 mil a year White shows up, we have a hell of a player who can dramatically extend leads like that.

[MultiTroll]

Thanks for the grades. 3 quarters of good basketball, and 4th quarter of tired, going-through motion basketball. Spurs were lucky the Pacers played worst or they could’ve given the lead back and lost the game. Patty had to get into a squabble to get a 2pts. :lol. He’s really been playing bad, passing up open 3’s to penetrate and pass to a lower % guy. I mean it took Vassell less than 1 possession to equal Patty’s production :lol
Any win is a good win at this point, but ya...
Pacers out:

two-time All-Star Domantas Sabonis (sore lower back)
defensive player of the year candidate Myles Turner (right foot)
Turner's replacement, Goga Bitadze, also didn't finish the game because of a sprained left ankle.
T.J. Warren

[Dejounte]

https://twitter.com/TheTyJager/status/1384503862900387858

https://twitter.com/TheTyJager/status/1384501720202432514

[exstatic]

Yeah, so I just went through each play of the first half and there was no offense re-distribution evident. It was the same old:

When White and Murray are both on the court - Murray is primary, White (and DeMar) are secondary
When White is the only one of the two on the court - he's naturally the primary
When Murray is the only one of the two on the court - he's naturally the primary

Difference last night was we had peak White - he made his shots, he didn't have any sloppy passes, he didn't hang his head after a miss.

This version of White is a starter on a championship team. If only we had him 90% of the time. But hey, he's been on a roll this month so who knows...

They interviewed White after the game,and apparently, they found a flaw in his form. He had been fading away on his 3s, which led to the low %.

[R. DeMurre]

Yeah, I'm convinced at this point that the Murray/White back court paired with a legit top 10 player could be a serious contender. For me, that's the interesting thing about this team right now-- there are potentially 4 or more guys who could all be legit #3 options on a great team. And I think it would be tough but not impossible to contend going, say, 7 deep with these types of net positive players.

Remember not very long ago when Pop absolutely refused to play Murray & White together? That move looks pretty stubborn and badly thought out now.

[exstatic]

Yeah, I'm convinced at this point that the Murray/White back court paired with a legit top 10 player could be a serious contender. For me, that's the interesting thing about this team right now-- there are potentially 4 or more guys who could all be legit #3 options on a great team. And I think it would be tough but not impossible to contend going, say, 7 deep with these types of net positive players.

Remember not very long ago when Pop absolutely refused to play Murray & White together? That move looks pretty stubborn and badly thought out now.

They were both on minutes restrictions last season. We were playing Patty, Marco, and Bryn. If you played White and DJ 24 minutes together, there would be 24 minutes with neither on the court. Not optimal.

[R. DeMurre]

They were both on minutes restrictions last season. We were playing Patty, Marco, and Bryn. If you played White and DJ 24 minutes together, there would be 24 minutes with neither on the court. Not optimal.

Agreed, but still-- to not play them together at all, even in end of games scenarios where you want your best 5 out there, is a pretty bad move.

[The Truth #6]

It was a weird move. A lot of weird shit on the team last year.

[heyheymymy]

https://twitter.com/PaulGarciaNBA/status/1384487725345148928?s=19

I feel vindicated for my patience while White got his legs back

[heyheymymy]

Also loved the untragic (magic) poeltl sighting last night. Jak has some handles in the open court for a big man.

[timvp]

Umm what? I don't know where yours and timvp 's assessment of White being the main ball handler coming from, but I'm re-watching the game right now on league pass and don't see this change.

I forgot how I worded it (maybe I worded it wrong, tbh) but looking at the stats, you can see the difference. Previously, White has basically been the small forward when sharing the court with DeRozan and Murray. Instead of being the playmaker he was in the Bubble, he's been relegated to spot-up shooter. He got to handle the ball a lot more in the Phoenix game and we saw a good amount of carry over in the Indiana game, specifically taking away DeRozan touches and giving them to White.


Touches Per Game (Before PHX Game)
DeRozan 58.8
White 44.7

Touches in Pacers Game
White 58
DeRozan 54

Time of Possession (Before PHX Game)
DeRozan 5.4
White 2.9

Time of Possession in Pacers Game
White 4.0
DeRozan 3.9


To my eye, it looked like a purposefully shift toward White. We'll see going forward, though. I think it'd be the right move because White needs to be more involved than simply being the designated floor spacer.

[Dejounte]

I forgot how I worded it (maybe I worded it wrong, tbh) but looking at the stats, you can see the difference. Previously, White has basically been the small forward when sharing the court with DeRozan and Murray. Instead of being the playmaker he was in the Bubble, he's been relegated to spot-up shooter. He got to handle the ball a lot more in the Phoenix game and we saw a good amount of carry over in the Indiana game, specifically taking away DeRozan touches and giving them to White.


Touches Per Game (Before PHX Game)
DeRozan 58.8
White 44.7

Touches in Pacers Game
White 58
DeRozan 54

Time of Possession (Before PHX Game)
DeRozan 5.4
White 2.9

Time of Possession in Pacers Game
White 4.0
DeRozan 3.9


To my eye, it looked like a purposefully shift toward White. We'll see going forward, though. I think it'd be the right move because White needs to be more involved than simply being the designated floor spacer.

Ah, "main ball handler" to me meant a shift from Murray, not DeMar.

It's not surprising that the team looks better when it's less DeMar. That's why people state over and over that the team won't be in a disastrous state when DeMar has moved on. There hasn't been much data, but after more of these games where DeMar touches the ball less or is out of the line-up the data will catch up with what people see when they watch the games.

[Sugus]

Also loved the untragic (magic) poeltl sighting last night. Jak has some handles in the open court for a big man.

Hmm, those handling possessions didn't quite catch my eyes (got a timestamp by any chance?), but he did post a great statline of 16/7/1/2/1 on 7/10 shooting with 2 TOs before fouling out. Quite the productive evening, and it's funny that through the season, it's becoming normalized to see Jakob scoring in the double digits, to the point where it's not even a commendable thing (didn't see a single comment about it in the game thread nor this one). Quite the shift from folks saying he was a non-factor on offense and an overpaid scrub, tbh, that crowd is real quiet nowadays...

It's pretty clear the chemistry Jakob has with White. I've been saying this since last season, but they're a special duo, and in no small part due to White's great decision-making in the PnR and excellent passes to feed Poeltl easy bunnies. I'd expect Jakob to keep on being productive on O as long as DW keeps being a featured part of the offense (remember folks saying we shouldn't have to wait for White to be back to judge Poeltl's lack of offensive scoring production*, when he had Dejounte ball-handling as the next-best-thing? :lol). I'm still not convinced the DJ-DW pairing can get the Spurs anywhere relevant, and would still like to sell high on Dejounte, and a good part of that is how White's game really gets unlocked when he's trusted with the ball. Having to wait for his "turn" by standing on the perimeter as DeRozan and Murray jack up long two's is not a winning formula for him.

[Dejounte]

Hmm, those handling possessions didn't quite catch my eyes (got a timestamp by any chance?), but he did post a great statline of 16/7/1/2/1 on 7/10 shooting with 2 TOs before fouling out. Quite the productive evening, and it's funny that through the season, it's becoming normalized to see Jakob scoring in the double digits, to the point where it's not even a commendable thing (didn't see a single comment about it in the game thread nor this one). Quite the shift from folks saying he was a non-factor on offense and an overpaid scrub, tbh, that crowd is real quiet nowadays...

It's pretty clear the chemistry Jakob has with White. I've been saying this since last season, but they're a special duo, and in no small part due to White's great decision-making in the PnR and excellent passes to feed Poeltl easy bunnies. I'd expect Jakob to keep on being productive on O as long as DW keeps being a featured part of the offense (remember folks saying we shouldn't have to wait for White to be back to judge Poeltl's lack of offense, when he had Dejounte ball-handling as the next-best-thing? :lol). I'm still not convinced the DJ-DW pairing can get the Spurs anywhere relevant, and would still like to sell high on Dejounte, and a good part of that is how White's game really gets unlocked when he's trusted with the ball. Having to wait for his "turn" by standing on the perimeter as DeRozan and Murray jack up long two's is not a winning formula for him.

No love for Murray's improved chemistry with Poeltl? Tsk, tsk...

What would it take you to be convinced of the pairing?

[Sugus]

No love for Murray's improved chemistry with Poeltl? Tsk, tsk...

What would it take you to be convinced of the pairing?

Hmm, have I not been paying close enough attention? I haven't seen much of this newfound chemistry you speak of, mind some clips? I know you got 'em ready to be fired up already :P

Tbh, it's more a continued distrust of Dejounte's ceiling as a player. He's gotten real good this season, no denying that, but I still see fundamental flaws that can and will get exploited in a playoff series. His dribbling skills are still nowhere near top-of-the-league (the user MannyIsGod, I don't know his exact handle but I'd @ him, replied to me in a thread i can't find now a couple days ago, asking how DJ could be schemed out of a game: attacking his handle and even a full-court press is the easiest, and sadly very realistic, option). His passing is still very basic, in that it gets the job done, but doesn't really justify his being a full-time PG when you also have White on the court, who's IMO a much-better decision maker, has better PnR chemistry/activity, has a better "feel" for when to attack and when to distribute (as opposed to DJ being exclusively a score-first PG most of the time, White can do both depending on necessity, and has the better court vision and passing instincts). Matter-of-factly, if Dejounte's 3pt shot were even league average (I don't care about % but willingness to shoot instead, and DJ's well below league-average there), and the Spurs weren't so dead-set in their ways, I'd say the pairing would have a higher ceiling with White at PG and Dejounte as a 3-level scoring SG.

So yeah, it's not really about the Dejounte-Poeltl chemistry and whether it's good or bad, but more about whether I see DJ as a long-term piece for the Spurs or not. Against popular opinion, I'd rather sell high on him now that IMO, he's getting close to his ceiling (he'd be worth at least two FRP if the Spurs could negotiate for shit). I'm not saying White is a sure-fire long term piece either, but I can realistically see him fitting better with whatever team the Spurs would want to build moving forward.

[exstatic]

No love for Murray's improved chemistry with Poeltl? Tsk, tsk...

What would it take you to be convinced of the pairing?

In 2019-20, White was the #1 PnR ball handler, minimum 100 possessions. That includes passing to a roller, kicking out, and scoring himself.

[Dejounte]

In 2019-20, White was the #1 PnR ball handler, minimum 100 possessions. That includes passing to a roller, kicking out, and scoring himself.

It isn't about whether White is the better distributor-- my question to Sugus was what it would take for him to be convinced that they could work in tandem. If we're talking about the point guard role itself, I don't necessarily believe the role should even go to the best distributor. Tony Parker was never that. In the Spurs system, it appears Pop wants the point guard to have a reliable go-to move when no one else can make a bucket. Parker has his floater, and I think they're betting on Murray's mid-range game to be it. I don't think a 3-point shot can ever be that go-to move unless you're Steph Curry.

[SAGirl]

Hmm, those handling possessions didn't quite catch my eyes (got a timestamp by any chance?), but he did post a great statline of 16/7/1/2/1 on 7/10 shooting with 2 TOs before fouling out. Quite the productive evening, and it's funny that through the season, it's becoming normalized to see Jakob scoring in the double digits, to the point where it's not even a commendable thing (didn't see a single comment about it in the game thread nor this one). Quite the shift from folks saying he was a non-factor on offense and an overpaid scrub, tbh, that crowd is real quiet nowadays...

It's pretty clear the chemistry Jakob has with White. I've been saying this since last season, but they're a special duo, and in no small part due to White's great decision-making in the PnR and excellent passes to feed Poeltl easy bunnies. I'd expect Jakob to keep on being productive on O as long as DW keeps being a featured part of the offense (remember folks saying we shouldn't have to wait for White to be back to judge Poeltl's lack of offense, when he had Dejounte ball-handling as the next-best-thing? :lol). I'm still not convinced the DJ-DW pairing can get the Spurs anywhere relevant, and would still like to sell high on Dejounte, and a good part of that is how White's game really gets unlocked when he's trusted with the ball. Having to wait for his "turn" by standing on the perimeter as DeRozan and Murray jack up long two's is not a winning formula for him.
Interesting and something I’ll watch out for. White has been so inconsistent but also injured that I attributed a lot to his injuries and lack of confidence. Catching up now, I’ll watch out for aspects like this. It will be interesting to see how he gets set loose next year if (when) Demar leaves.

[Dejounte]

Hmm, have I not been paying close enough attention? I haven't seen much of this newfound chemistry you speak of, mind some clips? I know you got 'em ready to be fired up already :P

Tbh, it's more a continued distrust of Dejounte's ceiling as a player. He's gotten real good this season, no denying that, but I still see fundamental flaws that can and will get exploited in a playoff series. His dribbling skills are still nowhere near top-of-the-league (the user MannyIsGod, I don't know his exact handle but I'd @ him, replied to me in a thread i can't find now a couple days ago, asking how DJ could be schemed out of a game: attacking his handle and even a full-court press is the easiest, and sadly very realistic, option). His passing is still very basic, in that it gets the job done, but doesn't really justify his being a full-time PG when you also have White on the court, who's IMO a much-better decision maker, has better PnR chemistry/activity, has a better "feel" for when to attack and when to distribute (as opposed to DJ being exclusively a score-first PG most of the time, White can do both depending on necessity, and has the better court vision and passing instincts). Matter-of-factly, if Dejounte's 3pt shot were even league average (I don't care about % but willingness to shoot instead, and DJ's well below league-average there), and the Spurs weren't so dead-set in their ways, I'd say the pairing would have a higher ceiling with White at PG and Dejounte as a 3-level scoring SG.

So yeah, it's not really about the Dejounte-Poeltl chemistry and whether it's good or bad, but more about whether I see DJ as a long-term piece for the Spurs or not. Against popular opinion, I'd rather sell high on him now that IMO, he's getting close to his ceiling (he'd be worth at least two FRP if the Spurs could negotiate for shit). I'm not saying White is a sure-fire long term piece either, but I can realistically see him fitting better with whatever team the Spurs would want to build moving forward.

I get that DJ had all those weaknesses prior to this season. It's hard to shed weaknesses you are known for unless the player has shown the improvement on it on a consistent basis and for some time. When you think for a while that way, it's easy for the improvements to go unnoticed because there's a perception there, and that perception downplays a lot of things that would otherwise be impressive if the mind didn't have preconceived biases towards a particular weakness.

Listen, I don't want you to take my word for it-- I suggest going into the next game with an open mind (or maybe the game after that, since DJ is bound to have a bad game every now and then).

I don't think a point guard like Murray can have "basic vision" when the rate of frequency which Murray has been accruing assists in bunches (a couple games ago, he had 5 assists in the first quarter alone) is increasing.

Please note:

1) Some of these passes may seem "simple" but compare and contrast that with DeMar, who often gets 2 feet within Poeltl, and seemingly NEVER can make a pass to him.
2) There are some very good passes that Poeltl missed the shot on, and these are harder to find.

See below:

https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=34&GameID=0022000473&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%201%27%20Jump%20Shot%20(2%20PTS)%20(M urray%201%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=540&GameID=0022000751&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%205%27%20Hook%20Shot%20(13%20PTS)%20( Murray%205%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=57&GameID=0022000751&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%201%27%20Cutting%20Finger%20Roll%20La yup%20Shot%20(2%20PTS)%20(Murray%202%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=540&GameID=0022000751&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%205%27%20Hook%20Shot%20(13%20PTS)%20( Murray%205%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=344&GameID=0022000782&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%2011%27%20Floating%20Jump%20Shot%20(2 %20PTS)%20(Murray%205%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=9&GameID=0022000797&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%201%27%20Cutting%20Dunk%20Shot%20(2%2 0PTS)%20(Murray%201%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=219&GameID=0022000810&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%20Cutting%20Dunk%20Shot%20(4%20PTS)%2 0(Murray%202%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=535&GameID=0022000816&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%203%27%20Cutting%20Dunk%20Shot%20(6%2 0PTS)%20(Murray%206%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=351&GameID=0022000853&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%206%27%20Floating%20Jump%20Shot%20(6% 20PTS)%20(Murray%209%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=355&GameID=0022000853&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%201%27%20Cutting%20Finger%20Roll%20La yup%20Shot%20(8%20PTS)%20(Murray%2010%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=338&GameID=0022000534&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%201%27%20Cutting%20Dunk%20Shot%20(6%2 0PTS)%20(Murray%204%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=347&GameID=0022000534&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%207%27%20Floating%20Jump%20Shot%20(8% 20PTS)%20(Murray%205%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=22&GameID=0022000567&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%2012%27%20Floating%20Jump%20Shot%20(2 %20PTS)%20(Murray%201%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=342&GameID=0022000583&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%204%27%20Layup%20(4%20PTS)%20(Murray% 203%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=9&GameID=0022000428&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%201%27%20Driving%20Dunk%20(2%20PTS)%2 0(Murray%201%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=333&GameID=0022000621&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%2011%27%20Floating%20Jump%20Shot%20(1 3%20PTS)%20(Murray%202%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=452&GameID=0022000435&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%20Cutting%20Layup%20Shot%20(8%20PTS)% 20(Murray%203%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=145&GameID=0022000675&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%201%27%20Layup%20(2%20PTS)%20(Murray% 203%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=48&GameID=0022000680&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%203%27%20Cutting%20Finger%20Roll%20La yup%20Shot%20(2%20PTS)%20(Murray%201%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=177&GameID=0022000680&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%203%27%20Layup%20(6%20PTS)%20(Murray% 204%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=232&GameID=0022000680&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%2011%27%20Floating%20Jump%20Shot%20(8 %20PTS)%20(Murray%206%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=518&GameID=0022000680&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%202%27%20Cutting%20Layup%20Shot%20(11 %20PTS)%20(Murray%207%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=28&GameID=0022000697&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%207%27%20Jump%20Bank%20Shot%20(2%20PT S)%20(Murray%202%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=45&GameID=0022000697&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%202%27%20Cutting%20Finger%20Roll%20La yup%20Shot%20(4%20PTS)%20(Murray%203%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=231&GameID=0022000714&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%202%27%20Layup%20(13%20PTS)%20(Murray %203%20AST)&sct=plot
https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?GameEventID=398&GameID=0022000728&Season=2020-21&flag=1&title=Poeltl%201%27%20Cutting%20Layup%20Shot%20(11 %20PTS)%20(Murray%205%20AST)&sct=plot

[timtonymanu]

I wanna believe this will be a turning point for the team but we know Rudy and Patty will still be playing too many minutes while Vassell continues sitting. :td

Prove me wrong that the team doesn’t just finish at a .500 record at best and barely misses the play in.

[ElNono]

why are we still trying to win games? smh

[daslicer]

why are we still trying to win games? smh

Pop needs to get his record.

[JuneJive]

why are we still trying to win games? smh

Because there's no big difference whether they get #11 pick or #14?

Too late for a proper tank.

[The Truth #6]

Hmm, have I not been paying close enough attention? I haven't seen much of this newfound chemistry you speak of, mind some clips? I know you got 'em ready to be fired up already :P

Tbh, it's more a continued distrust of Dejounte's ceiling as a player. He's gotten real good this season, no denying that, but I still see fundamental flaws that can and will get exploited in a playoff series. His dribbling skills are still nowhere near top-of-the-league (the user MannyIsGod, I don't know his exact handle but I'd @ him, replied to me in a thread i can't find now a couple days ago, asking how DJ could be schemed out of a game: attacking his handle and even a full-court press is the easiest, and sadly very realistic, option). His passing is still very basic, in that it gets the job done, but doesn't really justify his being a full-time PG when you also have White on the court, who's IMO a much-better decision maker, has better PnR chemistry/activity, has a better "feel" for when to attack and when to distribute (as opposed to DJ being exclusively a score-first PG most of the time, White can do both depending on necessity, and has the better court vision and passing instincts). Matter-of-factly, if Dejounte's 3pt shot were even league average (I don't care about % but willingness to shoot instead, and DJ's well below league-average there), and the Spurs weren't so dead-set in their ways, I'd say the pairing would have a higher ceiling with White at PG and Dejounte as a 3-level scoring SG.

So yeah, it's not really about the Dejounte-Poeltl chemistry and whether it's good or bad, but more about whether I see DJ as a long-term piece for the Spurs or not. Against popular opinion, I'd rather sell high on him now that IMO, he's getting close to his ceiling (he'd be worth at least two FRP if the Spurs could negotiate for shit). I'm not saying White is a sure-fire long term piece either, but I can realistically see him fitting better with whatever team the Spurs would want to build moving forward.

I agree about DJ being the shooting guard. If he could agree to that, and allow White to be the main decision-maker then I will hold off on trading DJ, or at least give it one more year, especially without DDR around to see how it goes. Let DV take DDR’s starting spot and see what we have. Obviously, you can do that right now at least for a few games before the season is over, but I don’t see them doing that.

[SpursDynasty85]

why are we still trying to win games? smh


Its obvious. There is a transition. Team is getting younger and they will play to win. It's the best way to become a contender quickly. Purposely losing will damage our younger guys development.

[The Truth #6]

Its obvious. There is a transition. Team is getting younger and they will play to win. It's the best way to become a contender quickly. Purposely losing will damage our younger guys development.

I see tanking as a coaching decision on which players to play. I don’t see young players losing on purpose because they are all competing for minutes and the next contract. But overall, I see your point about not purposefully losing. My counter is that our young players are better than our veterans.

[SpursDynasty85]

I see tanking as a coaching decision on which players to play. I don’t see young players losing on purpose because they are all competing for minutes and the next contract. But overall, I see your point about not purposefully losing. My counter is that our young players are better than our veterans.

I actually think our young guys are learning a lot playing with the veterans. I think this year and the bubble was purposely for competing/and teaching our young guys with experience. I will say our young guys need to be given a few more chances to play more but I am overall satisfied (not happy) with the amount of time our young guys have gotten. I have seen Luka in the G League and he is "DEFINITELY" not ready and if he played over some, locker room would start to "sour". Vets want to join a team where they are playing to win and so obviously a lot of this is also about setting a precedent that young guys have to clearly play better than the veterans to play which drives competition and brings about a culture for future veterans to want to play.

If you are a small market team in rebuild, not sure any meaningful veterans are looking at Orlando or OKC right now, as examples.

I actually think we are one key veteran signing away from easily being in the playoffs next year. Thats pretty good considering we were supposed to be rebuilding just 3 years ago.

[SAGirl]

I agree about DJ being the shooting guard. If he could agree to that, and allow White to be the main decision-maker then I will hold off on trading DJ, or at least give it one more year, especially without DDR around to see how it goes. Let DV take DDR’s starting spot and see what we have. Obviously, you can do that right now at least for a few games before the season is over, but I don’t see them doing that.
If they were to completely fall out of the playin tournament, only then would Pop play the rest of the season that way... but this seems like it will go down to the wire like last year...
To a predictable outcome... I am hoping for white to go supernova again if I am honest.

[SAGirl]

I I have seen Luka in the G League and he is "DEFINITELY" not ready and if he played over some, locker room would start to "sour.
I appreciate comments like this since I haven’t watched him there and highlights can be misleading. I am also concerned that he’s not ready for a regular spot. It’s just difficult to trust Pop’s judgment bc he’ll hold out someone young from playing time for arbitrary reasons that only make sense to him.

[ElNono]

Its obvious. There is a transition. Team is getting younger and they will play to win. It's the best way to become a contender quickly. Purposely losing will damage our younger guys development.

No it isn't. Based on what? You need talent before you work on reps. None of the young kids we have project to be star/franchise talent, which is what this team is missing.

Plus, it's a red-herring, there's clearly a pecking order on this team, and the vets are at the top.

[Sugus]

I get that DJ had all those weaknesses prior to this season. It's hard to shed weaknesses you are known for unless the player has shown the improvement on it on a consistent basis and for some time. When you think for a while that way, it's easy for the improvements to go unnoticed because there's a perception there, and that perception downplays a lot of things that would otherwise be impressive if the mind didn't have preconceived biases towards a particular weakness.

Listen, I don't want you to take my word for it-- I suggest going into the next game with an open mind (or maybe the game after that, since DJ is bound to have a bad game every now and then).

I don't think a point guard like Murray can have "basic vision" when the rate of frequency which Murray has been accruing assists in bunches (a couple games ago, he had 5 assists in the first quarter alone) is increasing.

Please note:

1) Some of these passes may seem "simple" but compare and contrast that with DeMar, who often gets 2 feet within Poeltl, and seemingly NEVER can make a pass to him.
2) There are some very good passes that Poeltl missed the shot on, and these are harder to find.

See below:

[videos]

Lmao I knew you had it ready to go, thanks for the clips my guy :lol:tu. I'll certainly follow your advice and watch him with an open mind and more intensive focus the next few games... Though I don't think it'll have any effect on my preference of selling high on him. Even if his skills marginally improve, he's still not the kind of player you build a team around offensively IMO. It'd take a big jump, an impossible jump maybe, to get him into the top crop of NBA PGs. His instincts alone are not something I'm confident he could ever develop to that level, not to mention handles/first step/craftiness.

The chemistry with Jakob thing was really interesting... Some of those passes looked like "bailouts" where DJ had already made up his mind and jumped or started to shoot, but changed his mind mid-air, and Jakob was just casually there to take the pass. But many others were legit good reads. It's interesting that most of those are bounce passes, I wonder why; I see Derrick passing more into the high air, on contrast. On the whole though, tbh, these clips don't really fight with my notion that DJ makes mostly "basic" level passes; none of those clips wooed me in the slightest, like other players' would. He's just not that gifted as a passer - and even in some instances where Poeltl was wide open, he takes a second too long to notice and exploit that. Playoff defenses aren't gonna give you those seconds... Opportunities can be nail-thin, and I don't see DJ exploiting them with nearly enough regularity to call passing a strength of his game. He's just ok. Is he improving? Sure is, but I don't see him making "that jump".

Btw, DJ's definitely better at playing the Jakob game than DeRozan is, no question about it :lol. I don't know how DD can be so blind to the big man and getting easy buckets off passes to them, instead prefering to dribble around and make it harder on himself. Low IQ player tbh, beyond his offensive/physical gifts.

[Kurgan]

No it isn't. Based on what? You need talent before you work on reps. None of the young kids we have project to be star/franchise talent, which is what this team is missing.

Plus, it's a red-herring, there's clearly a pecking order on this team, and the vets are at the top.

R.I.P. Vassell and Luka's development, all because Pop wants to "do right" by his vets and get them nice big contracts this summer

[SpursDynasty85]

No it isn't. Based on what? You need talent before you work on reps. None of the young kids we have project to be star/franchise talent, which is what this team is missing.

Plus, it's a red-herring, there's clearly a pecking order on this team, and the vets are at the top.


ok whether it is the best way is hard to know but them not blowing it up like most teams would’ve done and seeing how hard it is to go from bottom to top as a small market team tells me that I’m satisfied with their draft picks and timing of everything so far. Obviously it’s been tough along the way but a little perspective comes along way and I’m genuinely excited to see our young guys grow and can see the vets have had a really positive impact on them.

[exstatic]

R.I.P. Vassell and Luka's development, all because Pop wants to "do right" by his vets and get them nice big contracts this summer

Like he was going to keep Marco and Bryn last summer, right?

[ElNono]

ok whether it is the best way is hard to know but them not blowing it up like most teams would’ve done and seeing how hard it is to go from bottom to top as a small market team tells me that I’m satisfied with their draft picks and timing of everything so far. Obviously it’s been tough along the way but a little perspective comes along way and I’m genuinely excited to see our young guys grow and can see the vets have had a really positive impact on them.

If you enjoy just watching the kids grow and then bolt because this team is perennial first round fodder at best, I'm not going to take that away from you, and you should definitely enjoy it.

I will agree with you there's no guarantees that blowing it up is going to make things better sooner, but I don't know of any other way in this league to acquire star talent than outright throwing stupid money at them or the picking wisely when you have high draft picks.

I also agree the Spurs are on a small market, so just having money in hand doesn't guarantee anything either, unfortunately.

Would love the team to take a page out of your avatar, faking a number of injuries so we can land the #1 pick again, tbh...

[Kurgan]

Like he was going to keep Marco and Bryn last summer, right?

What's the point in giving so much minutes to the vets if they're not gonna be here next season?

[Dejounte]

What's the point in giving so much minutes to the vets if they're not gonna be here next season?

Let's say you have a job and a mortgage on a nice house and your contract is almost up with your job, but you still have a mortgage to pay. Let's then say your employer gives you no chances to prove to your current employer or your next employer that you deserve a contract as good as the one now or better. You're left now with no options to pay your mortgage, and your life is pretty much ruined. I'd wager the Spurs are doing the ethical thing here and are looking at the human side of things when it comes to players. I'm simply theorizing here.

It doesn't have to be just a mortgage payment, these players could have charitable foundations that they support, or businesses.

[GAustex]

Let's say you have a job and a mortgage on a nice house and your contract is almost up with your job, but you still have a mortgage to pay. Let's then say your employer gives you no chances to prove to your current employer or your next employer that you deserve a contract as good as the one now or better. You're left now with no options to pay your mortgage, and your life is pretty much ruined. I'd wager the Spurs are doing the ethical thing here and are looking at the human side of things when it comes to players. I'm simply theorizing here.

It doesn't have to be just a mortgage payment, these players could have charitable foundations that they support, or businesses.

This seems to be the reasoning for Pops actions with this years vets and Bryn and Marco. Strange as it is-as its at the expense it seems of the success of the team

[Dejounte]

This seems to be the reasoning for Pops actions with this years vets and Bryn and Marco. Strange as it is-as its at the expense it seems of the success of the team

Yeah, as fans it's something we don't really think about.

[SpursDynasty85]

If you enjoy just watching the kids grow and then bolt because this team is perennial first round fodder at best, I'm not going to take that away from you, and you should definitely enjoy it.

I will agree with you there's no guarantees that blowing it up is going to make things better sooner, but I don't know of any other way in this league to acquire star talent than outright throwing stupid money at them or the picking wisely when you have high draft picks.

I also agree the Spurs are on a small market, so just having money in hand doesn't guarantee anything either, unfortunately.

Would love the team to take a page out of your avatar, faking a number of injuries so we can land the #1 pick again, tbh...

Spurs found talent. It’s all about keeping them under reasonable contracts and not overhyping young talent and maxing them too soon. Spurs are riding a thin line and so far it doesn’t look half bad. Gonna get another low lottery type pick and have a ton of cap space to work with this offseason. Pretty good IMO.

[slick'81]

Spurs found talent. It’s all about keeping them under reasonable contracts and not overhyping young talent and maxing them too soon. Spurs are riding a thin line and so far it doesn’t look half bad. Gonna get another low lottery type pick and have a ton of cap space to work with this offseason. Pretty good IMO.


:rollin

[SpursDynasty85]

:rollin

It's paying off we've gone with higher ceiling draft picks like Walker/Murray/Luka but needs a year or two more than some of the other guys drafted around them. Coupled with Vassell, Keldon, and White who are all going to get better than their current selfs probably, that pretty impressive core to start with. Some all-stars might want to join these guys to see where we can go. Dieng, Poeltl, and Eubanks are legit NBA rotation players now too. Even if we don't pick up anyone, this team will be pretty good in 2 years.

[Dejounte]

So last night was obviously the "bad game" by DJ :lmao


Even if his skills marginally improve, he's still not the kind of player you build a team around offensively IMO. It'd take a big jump, an impossible jump maybe, to get him into the top crop of NBA PGs. His instincts alone are not something I'm confident he could ever develop to that level, not to mention handles/first step/craftiness.

I never said to build around him. The question posed was if DJ and White can work together long-term and what it would take to convince you of that. It seems you're singularly focused on Murray and not really concerned about the pairing of the two. There's no indication that we're building around Murray. He currently takes an eighth (12.5%) of the cap space while providing a sixth (16.7%) of the scoring load (while also giving other things such as leadership & defense). One can argue he's outperforming his contract, or at the very least playing at the appropriate level. There certainly is the likelihood he steps it up further next year, and makes his contract even more of a bargain.


The chemistry with Jakob thing was really interesting... Some of those passes looked like "bailouts" where DJ had already made up his mind and jumped or started to shoot, but changed his mind mid-air, and Jakob was just casually there to take the pass. But many others were legit good reads. It's interesting that most of those are bounce passes, I wonder why; I see Derrick passing more into the high air, on contrast. On the whole though, tbh, these clips don't really fight with my notion that DJ makes mostly "basic" level passes; none of those clips wooed me in the slightest, like other players' would. He's just not that gifted as a passer - and even in some instances where Poeltl was wide open, he takes a second too long to notice and exploit that. Playoff defenses aren't gonna give you those seconds... Opportunities can be nail-thin, and I don't see DJ exploiting them with nearly enough regularity to call passing a strength of his game. He's just ok. Is he improving? Sure is, but I don't see him making "that jump".


I'll go back once again to the TP and Manu days. Manu was a WAY better passer than TP, very creative and eye-popping, but that didn't mean he should be the starting point guard over TP. Point guards on the Spurs simply have a different role than most players in the NBA, and perhaps it's justified, given how rare it is for teams with point guards as the centerpiece (Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, the list goes on...) to win a championship. And it seems to me that no matter what guard you slot in with Derrick, Derrick will have the same amount of ball handling duties as he does now. The system that's built has Derrick taking over the last 6 minutes of each quarter with Murray taking over the first six, sometimes they switch it up and go with the hot hand (oh, and not to forget DeMar taking those duties as well). So whoever you replace Murray with, it's always going to be the same way. So it's really all about being picky that Derrick is not the one starting the game off as the primary ball handler, because being the ball handler for all 30 minutes of his playtime seems out of the question (as it should, since Derrick has value as an off-ball shooter). It's similar to being upset that Manu came off the bench for most of his career. There's value in using the guards this way; for one, it changes up the pace by a lot and keeps the opponent guessing. ...I could go on with additional points, but I'll leave that for later since I've made enough here.

[Sugus]

So last night was obviously the "bad game" by DJ :lmao

:lmao :lmao I literally replied to you in the grades thread before reading this lmfao, talk about a predictable outcome haha. I absolutely watched that game with an open mind, per your request... And it went pretty much as I expected :lol


I never said to build around him. The question posed was if DJ and White can work together long-term and what it would take to convince you of that. It seems you're singularly focused on Murray and not really concerned about the pairing of the two. There's no indication that we're building around Murray. He currently takes an eighth (12.5%) of the cap space while providing a sixth (16.7%) of the scoring load (while also giving other things such as leadership & defense). One can argue he's outperforming his contract, or at the very least playing at the appropriate level. There certainly is the likelihood he steps it up further next year, and makes his contract even more of a bargain.

Hmm, I see your points, and don't think you want to build around DJ, but to me it does look like the Spurs want to build around him (and the pairing with White, ofc). He's prominently featured as the "leader" of the team, the spirit, the "chosen one" after Nephew's spurning so to speak. Of course, a lot of that has to do with his own character, but I doubt Pop looks at him like a roleplayer, instead of an actual core piece. Following that lead, it furthers my desire to sell high on him: not only to recoup more assets that will be useful in the rebuild (and would allow us to "roll the dice" again in search of better, younger talent), but also simply so that Pop can't be deluded into thinking DJ's a #1 option or close to it :lol

I definitely don't disagree with your takes on his role/production and contract; I've rarely criticised his production (and even then, it's only when I'm saying that although good, it's not good enough IMO for a championship-calibre-starting-PG and won't develop into one). His contract is great and easily tradeable considering modern NBA salaries, much more tradeable than White's given both players' productions too, which is another reason I'd sell on DJ and not White (for now).


I'll go back once again to the TP and Manu days. Manu was a WAY better passer than TP, very creative and eye-popping, but that didn't mean he should be the starting point guard over TP. Point guards on the Spurs simply have a different role than most players in the NBA, and perhaps it's justified, given how rare it is for teams with point guards as the centerpiece (Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, the list goes on...) to win a championship. And it seems to me that no matter what guard you slot in with Derrick, Derrick will have the same amount of ball handling duties as he does now. The system that's built has Derrick taking over the last 6 minutes of each quarter with Murray taking over the first six, sometimes they switch it up and go with the hot hand (oh, and not to forget DeMar taking those duties as well). So whoever you replace Murray with, it's always going to be the same way. So it's really all about being picky that Derrick is not the one starting the game off as the primary ball handler, because being the ball handler for all 30 minutes of his playtime seems out of the question (as it should, since Derrick has value as an off-ball shooter). It's similar to being upset that Manu came off the bench for most of his career. There's value in using the guards this way; for one, it changes up the pace by a lot and keeps the opponent guessing. ...I could go on with additional points, but I'll leave that for later since I've made enough here.

Hmm, don't really agree here. Yes, the current roster does mean that White at PG or SG would play the same way, but that's not the scenario I'm picturing. I guess it comes down to: do you think a higher Usg Rate for White would be better for the Spurs' offense overall? And I say this, because there's two kinds of posters here, those high on White's ability and those who aren't. If you do believe that - there's easily other league SG roleplayers that, paired next to White, would give the latter more ball-handling opportunities due to simply being offensively limited (think of a backcourt pairing of Danny Green and White, as opposed to Dejounte Murray and White, that's the difference in my mind). While the "system" right now does imply shared ball-handling duties for DJ-DW, it doesn't mean it's an absolute formula that can't be overruled due to personnel shifts. Personally, I'd love to have both White ball-handle more (due to shipping out DJ, and more importantly, DeRozan), combined with the addition of a point-forward or wing-forward kind of player, who can take up the rest of playmaking duties (of course it's an ideal, but think Luka Doncic, LBJ, Kawhi kind of players).

So no, I don't agree that "whoever you replace Murray with, it's always going to be the same way". But it's still not my fundamental point that we're discussing. My gripe with Dejounte is not in relation to his pairing with White exclusively (or even mainly), but his clear (IMO) limitations as a player. It's not that I don't think the DW-DJ pairing is doomed or glorious or anywhere in between - I simply don't see any serious playoff winnings being spearheaded by a team where Murray plays a significant offensive (and especially playmaking) role. Last night's game was a picture-perfect example of how I'd imagine a playoff series would go down (and the intensity was there, too). Again, this isn't to say that I do believe White to be able to fill those shoes - but ATM, the best value/potential/return piece the Spurs have, by far, is Murray, so I'd like for them to start off a proper rebuild by shipping him, and leaving White to spearhead the rebuilding team, considering his age probably won't ever line up with the Spurs' next championship contending team (if there ever is one again :depressed).

[ElNono]

Spurs found talent. It’s all about keeping them under reasonable contracts and not overhyping young talent and maxing them too soon. Spurs are riding a thin line and so far it doesn’t look half bad. Gonna get another low lottery type pick and have a ton of cap space to work with this offseason. Pretty good IMO.

The bolded is a completely unreasonable expectation though. That was hard to do already when you had true stars that left money on the table and your team was a contender. Damn near impossible when you're a rebuilding team.

Even more so when young players have a real risk of losing out on economic security for them and their families. You can ask vets to do that, and you might be able to backload some contracts, but it's really unrealistic.

We've seen this happen over and over again with teams like Utah back when they were trying to grow up... had to pay Favors and Hayward top bills to keep them and eventually had to move them. Or even Simmons with the Spurs, where we had to let him walk because he got an offer the Spurs wouldn't match.

You could point out Simmons sucks, but the point is that these situations happen all the time, other teams have capspace too and identify young talent as well.

[SpursDynasty85]

The bolded is a completely unreasonable expectation though. That was hard to do already when you had true stars that left money on the table and your team was a contender. Damn near impossible when you're a rebuilding team.

Even more so when young players have a real risk of losing out on economic security for them and their families. You can ask vets to do that, and you might be able to backload some contracts, but it's really unrealistic.

We've seen this happen over and over again with teams like Utah back when they were trying to grow up... had to pay Favors and Hayward top bills to keep them and eventually had to move them. Or even Simmons with the Spurs, where we had to let him walk because he got an offer the Spurs wouldn't match.

You could point out Simmons sucks, but the point is that these situations happen all the time, other teams have capspace too and identify young talent as well.

Meh, your point of view is too narrow. It’s why sitting in the late lottery area is good. You choose from guys that have flaws or are raw or not as desirable and you mold them or develop them into something and pay them a fair value to stay at a place they know and will not change much; like a full rebuild. Each organization has to leverage whatever advantages they have and Spurs culture and the reputation for treating players well for their Spurs career is a selling point to young and old vets. I believe Spurs are choosing their draft picks with the whole picture in mind and they don’t want to be in the high lottery area where all their young guys want to just get paid and leave.

[TD 21]

If you are a small market team in rebuild, not sure any meaningful veterans are looking at Orlando or OKC right now, as examples.

I actually think we are one key veteran signing away from easily being in the playoffs next year. Thats pretty good considering we were supposed to be rebuilding just 3 years ago.


Spurs found talent. It’s all about keeping them under reasonable contracts and not overhyping young talent and maxing them too soon. Spurs are riding a thin line and so far it doesn’t look half bad. Gonna get another low lottery type pick and have a ton of cap space to work with this offseason. Pretty good IMO.

No meaningful veterans are looking at this no name young core, in a non glamour market, with an atypical NBA environment, either.

The most likely outcome is the only significant rotational change is Markkanen replacing DeRozan, which is definitely not easily getting them to the playoffs and squeaking in would be terrible, as it'd mean maintaining treadmill status.

They found B and C talent and a late lottery pick is likely to yield more of the same.

[SpursDynasty85]

No meaningful veterans are looking at this no name young core, in a non glamour market, with an atypical NBA environment, either.

The most likely outcome is the only significant rotational change is Markkanen replacing DeRozan, which is definitely not easily getting them to the playoffs and squeaking in would be terrible, as it'd mean maintaining treadmill status.

They found B and C talent and a late lottery pick is likely to yield more of the same.

You have to add Dieng as the first meaningful veteran free-agent. He would be a good piece moving forward too and I actually prefer him to Poeltl in a lot of ways this roster. Dieng and another solid PF veteran would be fine. They don't have to be all-stars. I think Vassell/Walker/Murray/Keldon will grow into a pretty dangerous core. White and Luka is icing on the cake.

[TD 21]

You have to add Dieng as the first meaningful veteran free-agent. He would be a good piece moving forward too and I actually prefer him to Poeltl in a lot of ways this roster. Dieng and another solid PF veteran would be fine. They don't have to be all-stars. I think Vassell/Walker/Murray/Keldon will grow into a pretty dangerous core. White and Luka is icing on the cake.

I like Dieng, but a veteran backup center doesn't qualify as "meaningful" in the grand scheme.

I give Johnson a puncher's chance for now, but the most likely outcome is this core lacks not only a genuine star, but anybody to build an offense around period. That's one issue, but another is them becoming just good enough to keep this team late lottery/treadmill fodder.

[heyheymymy]

Hmm, those handling possessions didn't quite catch my eyes (got a timestamp by any chance?), but he did post a great statline of 16/7/1/2/1 on 7/10 shooting with 2 TOs before fouling out. Quite the productive evening, and it's funny that through the season, it's becoming normalized to see Jakob scoring in the double digits, to the point where it's not even a commendable thing (didn't see a single comment about it in the game thread nor this one). Quite the shift from folks saying he was a non-factor on offense and an overpaid scrub, tbh, that crowd is real quiet nowadays...

It's pretty clear the chemistry Jakob has with White. I've been saying this since last season, but they're a special duo, and in no small part due to White's great decision-making in the PnR and excellent passes to feed Poeltl easy bunnies. I'd expect Jakob to keep on being productive on O as long as DW keeps being a featured part of the offense (remember folks saying we shouldn't have to wait for White to be back to judge Poeltl's lack of offensive scoring production*, when he had Dejounte ball-handling as the next-best-thing? :lol). I'm still not convinced the DJ-DW pairing can get the Spurs anywhere relevant, and would still like to sell high on Dejounte, and a good part of that is how White's game really gets unlocked when he's trusted with the ball. Having to wait for his "turn" by standing on the perimeter as DeRozan and Murray jack up long two's is not a winning formula for him.


6:20 3rd Q Poeltl gets the steal near opposing paint and brings it up to mid court before hitting a streaker who passes it back for the finish. Not sure if it counts but I thought it was impressive movement with the ball for a big

[ElNono]

Meh, your point of view is too narrow. It’s why sitting in the late lottery area is good. You choose from guys that have flaws or are raw or not as desirable and you mold them or develop them into something and pay them a fair value to stay at a place they know and will not change much; like a full rebuild. Each organization has to leverage whatever advantages they have and Spurs culture and the reputation for treating players well for their Spurs career is a selling point to young and old vets. I believe Spurs are choosing their draft picks with the whole picture in mind and they don’t want to be in the high lottery area where all their young guys want to just get paid and leave.

I mean, this is a completely skewed view of the Spurs and the league... who have they developed like that? Kawhi, who was the 15th pick and still got to play with the big 3? How did that Spurs culture work out?

Since 2014, the Spurs have drafted: Fathead, Milutinov, Murray, White, Walker, Johnson, Samanic, Vassell... stating any of those kids project to be anything but slightly above average is a stretch (we can leave Vassell out of it if you prefer, since he's both too young and one of the highest picks the Spurs had since TD).

The whole 'Spurs culture' schtick worked out when the team had the big 3 and could pick and choose which talent to bring in. Now we're the beggars here. That's how we ended up with prima donnas like LMA and DeRozan.

Sorry, but this league is all about star talent, and it's extremely rare those magically drop to the middle of the draft. The other teams are not stupid and do as much due diligence as the Spurs do.

The biggest advantage the Spurs have right now is that Dan Gilbert isn't running the team, but I can't think of many more. This roster doesn't strike me as a star magnet, tbh.

[SpursDynasty85]

I mean, this is a completely skewed view of the Spurs and the league... who have they developed like that? Kawhi, who was the 15th pick and still got to play with the big 3? How did that Spurs culture work out?

Since 2014, the Spurs have drafted: Fathead, Milutinov, Murray, White, Walker, Johnson, Samanic, Vassell... stating any of those kids project to be anything but slightly above average is a stretch (we can leave Vassell out of it if you prefer, since he's both too young and one of the highest picks the Spurs had since TD).

The whole 'Spurs culture' schtick worked out when the team had the big 3 and could pick and choose which talent to bring in. Now we're the beggars here. That's how we ended up with prima donnas like LMA and DeRozan.

Sorry, but this league is all about star talent, and it's extremely rare those magically drop to the middle of the draft. The other teams are not stupid and do as much due diligence as the Spurs do.

The biggest advantage the Spurs have right now is that Dan Gilbert isn't running the team, but I can't think of many more. This roster doesn't strike me as a star magnet, tbh.

Your complaint is we aren’t a star magnet? We never were and we never should act like one. If a star did come, we probably would be a legit contender with this squad but you have to utilize what you have. Teams might get a Vucevic, Karl Anthony Towns, and more but even if you do get those guys it still barely works out. Kawhi was one guy and whatever happened there wasn’t because of the culture but because of a rare instance of some weird things and powerful people behind the scenes. LMA is a bad example considering he was the premiere free agent and we nabbed him.

[ElNono]

Your complaint is we aren’t a star magnet? We never were and we never should act like one. If a star did come, we probably would be a legit contender with this squad but you have to utilize what you have. Teams might get a Vucevic, Karl Anthony Towns, and more but even if you do get those guys it still barely works out. Kawhi was one guy and whatever happened there wasn’t because of the culture but because of a rare instance of some weird things and powerful people behind the scenes. LMA is a bad example considering he was the premiere free agent and we nabbed him.

We landed LMA because this team was still a contender coming off a championship. Not to mention nephew projected to be a franchise player. We had the big 3 still around as well. Completely different situation.

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm pointing out that it's a complete illusion that any star will come here because of the "Spurs culture" or "vets gets privileges"... Over the hill vets might bite into that, not young stars that have to drag those vets and a bunch of average kids to the finish line on a rookie deal.

I'm 100% realistic here. This is a small market that can't compete on endorsements and limelight with bigger cities and thus the actual value of having cap space is relative. Teams like the Lakers who rarely have cap space make things work anyways when a star is available, moving players, etc.

We also don't have a roster that can contend and thus entice some star to come team up. That only leaves the draft to acquire what this team needs, and we might agree or disagree as to whether the lottery system is fair or not, but it's statistically undeniable that generally the best talent in the draft gets picked early.

With that in mind, it's just a matter of being pragmatic. Our last two franchise-defining stars, DRob and TD, were both #1 picks. Once you have those guys maybe you can talk about "Spurs culture" and what not, when you don't, you need to figure out how to get them.

[timtonymanu]

Calling el Nono narrow with his opinion but trying to validate that middle lottery is the best position for the Spurs. :lol you can’t make this shit up.

[SpursDynasty85]

Calling el Nono narrow with his opinion but trying to validate that middle lottery is the best position for the Spurs. :lol you can’t make this shit up.


Well it’s an argument. Rebuild while trying to compete. It sure as heck shouldn’t be surprising anymore and people should see that it’s kind of working.

[SpursDynasty85]

We landed LMA because this team was still a contender coming off a championship. Not to mention nephew projected to be a franchise player. We had the big 3 still around as well. Completely different situation.

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm pointing out that it's a complete illusion that any star will come here because of the "Spurs culture" or "vets gets privileges"... Over the hill vets might bite into that, not young stars that have to drag those vets and a bunch of average kids to the finish line on a rookie deal.

I'm 100% realistic here. This is a small market that can't compete on endorsements and limelight with bigger cities and thus the actual value of having cap space is relative. Teams like the Lakers who rarely have cap space make things work anyways when a star is available, moving players, etc.

We also don't have a roster that can contend and thus entice some star to come team up. That only leaves the draft to acquire what this team needs, and we might agree or disagree as to whether the lottery system is fair or not, but it's statistically undeniable that generally the best talent in the draft gets picked early.

With that in mind, it's just a matter of being pragmatic. Our last two franchise-defining stars, DRob and TD, were both #1 picks. Once you have those guys maybe you can talk about "Spurs culture" and what not, when you don't, you need to figure out how to get them.

I get all your points but your strategy is to do what all teams would’ve tried to do and I am starting to like the idea that Spurs can do it their own way. Tanking has negative consequences like having a losing culture, has guys on the team hoping to leave sooner rather than later and can be detrimental to the development of the younger guys as well. We can agree to disagree. Get your points though.

[ElNono]

I get all your points but your strategy is to do what all teams would’ve tried to do and I am starting to like the idea that Spurs can do it their own way. Tanking has negative consequences like having a losing culture, has guys on the team hoping to leave sooner rather than later and can be detrimental to the development of the younger guys as well. We can agree to disagree. Get your points though.

I get what you mean, but that whole winning culture thing was built with stars and wins, and we just have to forget about that, IMVHO. It was nice while we had it, great memories, those banners are ours and look great, but it's gone.

The Spurs are basically back to being what they were until they got lucky in the lottery and landed two #1 picks.

But, hey, we both agree there's no guarantees going either way, so I won't tell you you're wrong. I'll just agree to disagree that's the best way to become a contender again.

[Dejounte]

Hmm, I see your points, and don't think you want to build around DJ, but to me it does look like the Spurs want to build around him (and the pairing with White, ofc). He's prominently featured as the "leader" of the team, the spirit, the "chosen one" after Nephew's spurning so to speak. Of course, a lot of that has to do with his own character, but I doubt Pop looks at him like a roleplayer, instead of an actual core piece.

I disagree here. Just because he's embracing being the vocal leader doesn't mean the team is being built around him. IMO, this team will land its real star (if one on the current team doesn't develop into one) through the draft. That hypothetical player, with as much talent as he has, would still only be 19 years old-ish and would have pressure to act as a leader in front of the media as well. Think about how much weight that is on his shoulders. He's trying to learn the Spurs' system while fielding tough questions, especially if the team is losing and all kinds of scenarios. The benefit of having a "leadership personality" in DJ, is he will be able to act like the vet in that situation and allow the hypothetical player to ease his way into stardom. I think it falls in line with how the Spurs develop their players slowly, which as we know, is one of the most unique methods only the Spurs are known for doing. Yes, DJ takes more shots than you would like on the offense but isn't that the point of player development? If you watch the games closely throughout the season, he's slowly tweaking his shot profile and now only going for spots where he's more efficient. Honestly, I don't know where it comes from where you think he takes shots away from other players but we all have our own opinion and IMO, there's a lot of shots that he takes that are good.




So no, I don't agree that "whoever you replace Murray with, it's always going to be the same way". But it's still not my fundamental point that we're discussing. My gripe with Dejounte is not in relation to his pairing with White exclusively (or even mainly), but his clear (IMO) limitations as a player. It's not that I don't think the DW-DJ pairing is doomed or glorious or anywhere in between - I simply don't see any serious playoff winnings being spearheaded by a team where Murray plays a significant offensive (and especially playmaking) role. Last night's game was a picture-perfect example of how I'd imagine a playoff series would go down (and the intensity was there, too). Again, this isn't to say that I do believe White to be able to fill those shoes - but ATM, the best value/potential/return piece the Spurs have, by far, is Murray, so I'd like for them to start off a proper rebuild by shipping him, and leaving White to spearhead the rebuilding team, considering his age probably won't ever line up with the Spurs' next championship contending team (if there ever is one again :depressed).

Fair if you think so, but I simply don't like to view games in a vacuum to determine a player's worth or future, especially when that player has not shown signs of stagnation performance-wise (year to year).